Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimateReality 04-21-05, 12:13 AM	Apologies for the long post. Okay, so we've got major railroading and complete lack of considering character motivations on our hands here. The campaign to date: the 3rd level party is supposed to go retrieve a mighty sword (OOC, we were told it was +3) that belongs to a country that one of the characters is wanted in. (Was supposed to marry a noble and skipped out.) We have to go up a mountain with an incredibly narrow path in bad weather. While camping at the base, during the middle of the night some guy starts running around with the sword we're after. We chase him, trying to catch him, until he climbs up the mountain like it's a flat surface. Okay, whatever. The DM seems to not want us to climb the mountain (the Balance checks are nigh impossible, and failing it means falling down the mountain to instant death) or catch the guy and get our hands on the sword. (Why were we sent to retrieve it in the first place, then?) The party ditches the sword thing, a few people retire their characters due to bad meshing with the party, and the two remaining PCs head off in another direction. While on the path, we pass through a weird little village and stock up. Not long after we leave, the man with the sword shows up again. This time we chase him off the path, and he takes off flying faster than 90 ft a round. The wizard summons a hippogriff to catch him, and suddenly, a rabid lion jumps out and attacks the other character, necessitating abandonment of Plan Chase That Dude Down in order to implement Plan Stop PC From Dying. What a coincidence. *eyeroll* This forces us to: a) let the swordman escape, and b) spend the night in town healing up. In town were these monsters, the whole thing was taken from "The Village", except none of us watched that so we didn't know. Anyway, a suspicious elder who we think was spying on the villagers gave me a token to let us pass into an elf city in the northern wastelands with no explanation as to why... Also, while the monsters only come when people trespass into the forest, and it's obvious we were those trespassers: a) we got no knowledge or bardic lore check even though we had lived three days' walk from the area for a couple of years, and b) the townsfolk didn't want to lynch us for bringing on the monsters. So my issue is this: the DM has yet to try and motivate us in any positive way whatsoever, he seems to be inflexible and trying to railroad us by making things incredibly difficult when we don't do it the way he wants, and his attempts at plot hooks so far seem to reek of "traps". The most mixed feeling I have ever had about receiving XP was when, last session, he awarded me 1000 for "attempting to go through the module the way it was supposed to be run". Oh yeah, I forgot: backstories! He was very pleased that some of us had them, and warned he would dock 50 xp for those who didn't have them by next session. So I'm thinking, "heh, he really wants backstories". But next session he tells them he was just kidding (!!!). Whoa. Hold on there. I think I actually gave him a two minute lecture about how if he says he's going to do something, he should do it. Especially when it comes to negative and positive reinforcement. He then furthermore admits he hasn't even read one character's backstory and is only partway through another. He'd only read one of them in its entirety (mine, in case you're curious). And it's not like those other backstories were barely-English chickenscrawl, either, I read them myself. They were nicely proofed and typed up, and pretty well written if I do say so myself. They were even online for him. None of the backstories so far has been used as any sort of tie-in or used to help motivate a character. The campaign is still fun, but the railroading and constant negative-reinforcement is just annoying. It feels like he's trying to run a video game campaign and get us to conform and react to the world, jumping through pre-defined hoops rather than run a more interactive, open-ended, less-linear game. I know what I should do about this, right? I know at least one other player feels this way, and we should talk to him in private. The problem is, the GM is not a close personal friend of ours, and I do not see him outside of gaming. He is a smoker, so I could theoretically talk to him on smoke breaks, except that our problem player also smokes and is all over him for the free tobacco... I don't want to drag his lack of maturity into this. To complicate the issue, TPK and I host the game, and we do not want to be percieved as using that as leverage to get things "our way". I do have the guy on my MSN, but how do I politely broach a topic like this to him?
Mirikon 04-21-05, 12:26 AM	Go to him outside of game time. Perhaps get him coffee or something while you're at it, and have a calm discussion with him. Start off with the things you like about his DMing, and then gradually shift into the things you don't like. Don't be confrontational, just let him know that you are concerned about the railroading and all, and that it is putting a damper on the game for you. If he is a good DM, he'll try to change.
Draco Strang 04-21-05, 12:38 AM	Mirkon said it pretty well, lemme add: If it's at your house, you set start times, eh? Maybe ask the DM to show up a half hour early to "go over my character sheet" or tell the other player the session won't start until a bit later than usual. This gives you two a window to sit down with your DM and discuss it without dragging the other player in. For what it's worth, the dude climbing up the mountain coulda had spiderclimb going.... :D You're right about backstories and railroading...this guy should fix his deal. Maybe ask him if he could design a session that touched on the backstory of a character or two? Say that you really wanna explore that part of your campaign, or something. That shows your desire to play up that section of the campaign, and yet not come out and say that the DM isn't doing enough. Could you guys (who both seem very knowledgable) maybe give him pointers, and some resources to use so he can build a better campaign? I find that a lot of "bad" DMs just have a problem diversifying and trying new things. Given new resources, they branch out and do new stuff. Just my two cents.
UltimateReality 04-21-05, 01:20 AM	If it's at your house, you set start times, eh?:plotting: Now why didn't I think of that? Maybe ask the DM to show up a half hour early to "go over my character sheet" or tell the other player the session won't start until a bit later than usual. This gives you two a window to sit down with your DM and discuss it without dragging the other player in.I love this idea. The main problem is that the other players like to show up early too -- our group is full of M:tG players. However, the DM also games with us in another group, so we may be able to catch him then. This Saturday would be a good bet, as we will have an afternoon engagement and can tell the rest of the party to show up half an hour later than we tell him to. OTOH, he is usually the one who shows up last anyway...*sigh* Perhaps I can get TPK to give him an excuse like the character sheet thing to show up early. (TPK GMs that game, and the DM in question does our Sunday one.) Oh, and I noticed you used player, singular. FWIW, we have only one "problem player", but 2 other players as well. The group is 5 strong. Just to clear up any confusion there. For what it's worth, the dude climbing up the mountain coulda had spiderclimb going.... :D Oh, no doubt. It was just kinda like..."wtf, we're supposed to go after him, but you're making him uncatchable...uh...and the mountain's impossible for us to climb..." Oh yeah, and we're pretty sure the sword is dominating him, too. We're working on a way to take the guy to subconscious and not kill him or outright free him of the sword, but I swear, that thing is so annoying that the next time we run into him, I may not be able to talk the wizard out of casting Scorching Ray... Maybe ask him if he could design a session that touched on the backstory of a character or two?I was thinking of outright pointing out to him good adventure hooks I thought up based on some of the backstories. I know what motivates my character, at least, and can give him that much. The other PCs that wrote backstories gave him lots of open-ended stuff: a goliath spirit shaman kicked out of his tribe when he saved a mountain lion that had attacked a tribe-mate, a gunslinger whose half-brother is the prince Effie was supposed to marry (he doesn't know his brother yet), Effie the human wizard on the run across the continent from the minor prince, and me, Ai the drow bard, out after a good song, some fine wine, a tall tale, and a good time adventuring with my love. I also have a patron back home who knows he can call on me anytime for anything, and aging parents. I no doubt made some enemies in finishing school as well (they didn't take kindly to drow there, especially ones from the wrong side of the tracks). All our backstories are peppered with possible NPCs (new PCs have in fact been drawn from those backstories -- the gunslinger defended Effie and I when a party got a bit rowdy), but the DM hasn't used or even referred to any of them yet. Most of us are good aligned, so he shouldn't have an issue motivating us with some things. The monsters in the village left people alone but literally ripped the livestock apart alive. That was pretty motivating for us. That shows your desire to play up that section of the campaign, and yet not come out and say that the DM isn't doing enough.I don't think he's "not doing enough", I think he's trying very hard, but he's also facing the problem of adjusting to a new edition of the game (mostly completed now), a new group, and new dynamics. Oh, and it doesn't help that we have one rabid hack 'n slasher, two hardcore RP enthusiasts, one lukewarm RPer, and someone who just kinda goes with the flow. Hm, maybe I should hand him "Robin's Laws of Good Gamesmastering"... Could you guys (who both seem very knowledgable) maybe give him pointers, and some resources to use so he can build a better campaign?We're trying to do this as much as we can, but are limited by the fact we don't want to seem like know-it-alls. We have been trying to use in character hints when something seems off (my character expressed great puzzlement, but gratefulness, in game and in her journal when the townsfolk didn't start attacking her). The other problem is that he is simply, I swear, practically terrified of TPK's grasp of the mechanics. TPK cannot suggest anything to him anymore, except on the DM-DM level (which hopefully this would fall into, rather than be perceived as "player whining"). One of the other players wanted to play a goliath without the HD and resulting benefits and LA bump, and the DM said ok...until TPK said maybe he'd play one too. That's all it took. He also won't let Effie (TPK's wizard character) find a Pearl of Power I. He fears its power that much...I thought about pointing out to him how, in two levels, with the same gold, Effie can craft a Headband of Intellect +2, and that does a lot more than some piddly pearl. And it's not like TPK sprung this on him, either: he asked at the start if a crafting wizard was ok, and the DM said yes. The DM seems also irrationally afraid that whatever he does in this game will affect how TPK DMs for him in his game. I think he's used to a harsh DMing style. I find that a lot of "bad" DMs just have a problem diversifying and trying new things. Given new resources, they branch out and do new stuff.I've not doubt this is the issue. While you can learn a lot from watching someone DM, you can't learn everything...Mainly what I'm after is suggestions on how to bring this up in a non-threatening way without seeming like a manipulative witch.
Bort333 04-21-05, 02:04 AM	Show him this thread.
Draco Strang 04-21-05, 02:10 AM	Ultimate Reality: Don't you hate it when the DM has trouble accepting player input? I did, for about 2 sessions of DMing, and then it got fixed. Players like that are excellent resources. In fact, I use a guy like that as a crutch. I don't mean to brag, but I have an excellent working knowledge of the rules for 2nd ed. and 3.5. However...We've got a player that is the Bobby friggin' Fisher of 3.5 rules and mechanics. If there's anything that I'm even remotely unsure about, I just look over and say "Sean, what's goin on....am I doing this right?" Sometimes I am, sometimes i am't. (No, it's not a word....I'm coining it though) That's fine with me...everytime he corrects me and helps me out, I become that much better of a DM. Try as tactfully as possible to point that out to this dude. Glad you took the time to read and respond to my post....luck with your sitch', Ultimate.
Ut-Napishtim 04-21-05, 02:38 AM	a few people retire their characters due to bad meshing with the party So am I to take it that three or four folks have already up and left the game and only two or three players remain? I'd say stop playing it. The "not meshing" is a nice excuse to not upset the DM, but I'm guessing they probably got tired of his BS. That's pretty bad - I've played in some awful games just for the opportunity to play, and most folks do the same. It takes a pretty bad game for folks to up and leave - which I've seen and done myself as well. The whole time this guy's probably telling himself: Sure I lost three folks, but I must be doing something right because I still have a couple. When really they hate the game too, but are just too nice to leave or say anything (although I'm guessing your problem player doesn't really care as long as he gets whatever feat, race, skill, or PrC he's gunning for each week.) I once played in a game that started with about 10 players, and was so bad that after maybe three or four sessions there wasn't a game anymore because only 1 person was left that actually wanted to play in it (and it wasn't me.) Really, really bad. If you just go along with this it's only giving him positive reinforcement for his bad DMing and years down the road he's going to be saying: I've always DMed this way and nobody ever had a problem with it. Unless you do something about it. Not having any players sends a pretty strong message to a DM - especially since everyone knows how hard it is to find someone willing to in the first place. I'd bet dollars to donuts if ya'll ditch the game he'll be coming to you in a week asking what he did wrong.
UltimateReality 04-21-05, 02:48 AM	So am I to take it that three or four folks have already up and left the game and only two or three players remain?No, they retired their characters and created new ones. It was more a problem of them creating hack-oriented PCs and being confronted with the Uber RP Team of D00M...
On_the_wings_of_TPK 04-21-05, 03:04 AM	Re: plot hooks The plot hooks are like little carrots tied on strings, being dangled from a stick that's held in the left hand of a guy decked out in hunting gear with an AK-47 in his right hand, trying to hide behind a clear glass window. The DM has also openly stated on multiple occasions that he not only doesn't care if we metagame, he encourages it.
Ut-Napishtim 04-21-05, 03:39 AM	No, they retired their characters and created new ones. It was more a problem of them creating hack-oriented PCs and being confronted with the Uber RP Team of D00M... Okay, my mistake. :ayyyy!:
Draco Strang 04-21-05, 12:17 PM	Re: plot hooks The plot hooks are like little carrots tied on strings, being dangled from a stick that's held in the left hand of a guy decked out in hunting gear with an AK-47 in his right hand, trying to hide behind a clear glass window. The DM has also openly stated on multiple occasions that he not only doesn't care if we metagame, he encourages it. TPK, you and Ultimate know what it takes to make a good game, and if this guy doesn't care....may I suggest some sort of change regarding the composition of your group?
UltimateReality 04-21-05, 01:08 PM	TPK, you and Ultimate know what it takes to make a good game, and if this guy doesn't care....may I suggest some sort of change regarding the composition of your group?Awww, fank oo. *all warm and fuzzy inside* The main thing is that this guy has potential...he can improvise, he can come up with interesting plot scenarios. TPK suspects (and I'm starting to agree with him) that the DM in question is still trying to "prove himself", as it were, to our group. I don't know if he realizes that after 4 months of gaming and him being let into our two-years-and-running group (when even a close friend was declined due to style differences), and that all of us willingly gaming under him and having a fun time despite these frustrations, means he's been accepted. :P He's the only DM I know who brings munchies and shares them with the players. I think Bort333's advice may be well given, here...I'll leave it up to TPK if he wants to msg the guy with the thread, but I suspect this may be the best course of action. I'm just wondering how he'd feel about "oh my gawd, she's been talking to STRANGERS on the INTARW3B about this before me?!?! :embarrass ". But then I worry like that a lot. :P
LordofIllusions 04-21-05, 01:50 PM	So my issue is this: the DM has yet to try and motivate us in any positive way whatsoever, he seems to be inflexible and trying to railroad us by making things incredibly difficult when we don't do it the way he wants, and his attempts at plot hooks so far seem to reek of "traps". The most mixed feeling I have ever had about receiving XP was when, last session, he awarded me 1000 for "attempting to go through the module the way it was supposed to be run". How are you doing UltimateReality ? It seems you do have a problem on your hands. First off I would like to say--to me--it seems like your DM may be a bit nervous and unsure of himself. This is not a bad thing it happens to the best DMs out there. From what I have read in this segment of your poat alone, it seems like either he did not pay much attention to your character's personalities(i.e. likes and dislikes)--or--he still has not grasped your character's goals, personality, etc. The reason I say this is because his plot hooks are failing. My plot hooks hardly ever fail; the reason why is because "I know my PCs." So I know exactly which treat to dangle in front of them to make them follow, and if they don't guess what ? I have another plot hook that was crafted to occur if they chose to not follow. :devil: But this kind of DMing does not happen over night; it occurs after the DM knows his group, is comfortable with his group, and overall undertands the goals of his Player Characters'. As far as the giving "1000" XP for "attempting to go through the module the way it was supposed to be run", well...that's just funny. :rofl: He needs to really brush up on the rules for awarding XP. In the DMG there is a section about DMs that cannot handle variations from the official modules--as in PCs doing something the module did not cover--but that is where the confidence comes in, along with some thorough proofreading and notemaking. I always read the module through at least twice before running it. The second time I make notes with my trusty pen, paper, and highlighter. Then I add my own hooks in; ones I know the players will refuse that serve to move them towards the true hooks by way of them refusing the set-up hook. Should the choose the set-up hook, well it is still a hook and I am prepared. :devil: The guy might have a confidence problem. Try making him feel like your not blatantly trying to ruin the campaign because it seems like he is scared or that he thinks this is what your trying to do. Make him feel better and believe me the adventures will improve. :) Oh yeah, I forgot: backstories! He was very pleased that some of us had them, and warned he would dock 50 xp for those who didn't have them by next session. So I'm thinking, "heh, he really wants backstories". But next session he tells them he was just kidding (!!!). Whoa. Hold on there. I think I actually gave him a two minute lecture about how if he says he's going to do something, he should do it. Especially when it comes to negative and positive reinforcement. He then furthermore admits he hasn't even read one character's backstory and is only partway through another. He'd only read one of them in its entirety (mine, in case you're curious). And it's not like those other backstories were barely-English chickenscrawl, either, I read them myself. They were nicely proofed and typed up, and pretty well written if I do say so myself. They were even online for him. None of the backstories so far has been used as any sort of tie-in or used to help motivate a character. How old is this DM ? He sounds young--or at least immature to do such a thing. I usually have the PCs tell me what their backgrounds are in portions, ask them where they want their characters to go(i.e. goals), and ask them if they want me to write them out or them. But after they write them I don't say "Just kidding, never wanted it anyway!" Is this guy a hardcore video gamer ? I know what I should do about this, right? I know at least one other player feels this way, and we should talk to him in private. The problem is, the GM is not a close personal friend of ours, and I do not see him outside of gaming. He is a smoker, so I could theoretically talk to him on smoke breaks, except that our problem player also smokes and is all over him for the free tobacco... I don't want to drag his lack of maturity into this. To complicate the issue, TPK and I host the game, and we do not want to be percieved as using that as leverage to get things "our way". I do have the guy on my MSN, but how do I politely broach a topic like this to him? First, let him know what he does do right. Compliment him on his strong points. Afterwards just kind of allude to your character's background and mention how much you would like it if your character could start getting on with his goals(which you prepared for said character). Don't be nasty, like alot of the bad players(i.e. The ones always starting the whiny threads--about their DMs--when they themselves are the trouble-makers and "self-appointed" co-DMs) on the WoTC boards are, because if you are your going to walk away empty-handed. You have to remain cordial. Also, when you play try not to refute the storyline so hard; instead take control of it and steer it in the direction you want subtletly. That's what a good player does. The ones that get up argue, log on and rant, and end up getting kicked out of the game just make themselves look dumb. Let some ideas on how he can get you to follow the story kind of slip off of your tongue when you talk with him. The best thing I ever did was set-up character generation/character evaluation sessions. Here the Players get to reinform me of their character's goals, let me know about their character's next destination, what magical items their character's are interested in, etc. After those sessions I have about 50 adventures dancing through my head. The point is talk, don't whine, and whatever you do don't try to be a co-DM.
LordofIllusions 04-21-05, 02:04 PM	So am I to take it that three or four folks have already up and left the game and only two or three players remain? I'd say stop playing it. The "not meshing" is a nice excuse to not upset the DM, but I'm guessing they probably got tired of his BS. That's pretty bad - I've played in some awful games just for the opportunity to play, and most folks do the same. It takes a pretty bad game for folks to up and leave - which I've seen and done myself as well. The whole time this guy's probably telling himself: Sure I lost three folks, but I must be doing something right because I still have a couple. When really they hate the game too, but are just too nice to leave or say anything (although I'm guessing your problem player doesn't really care as long as he gets whatever feat, race, skill, or PrC he's gunning for each week.) I once played in a game that started with about 10 players, and was so bad that after maybe three or four sessions there wasn't a game anymore because only 1 person was left that actually wanted to play in it (and it wasn't me.) Really, really bad. If you just go along with this it's only giving him positive reinforcement for his bad DMing and years down the road he's going to be saying: I've always DMed this way and nobody ever had a problem with it. Unless you do something about it. Not having any players sends a pretty strong message to a DM - especially since everyone knows how hard it is to find someone willing to in the first place. I'd bet dollars to donuts if ya'll ditch the game he'll be coming to you in a week asking what he did wrong. Keep in mind that bad players--or people that truly have no real interest in D&D--also leave campaign(s) when they cannot get their way or when the latest video game comes out; not that this is the case here, but many "spoiled players" will quickly leave a campaign if something does not go their way or something happens that does not place them in the position of "star of the campaign." For instance, one player I knew--that stopped coming--was just a miserable person. He argued with everyone, was an introvert, would lie excessively and subsequently try to convince others to believe his lies, was an ego-maniac, and loved to create confrontations(he even beat his own brother up once). Now this player was what I call a "self-appointed" co-DM. He was always argueing over official rules, always had something negative to say about the game, did not own one D&D book, and the other players hated gaming with him. As a matter of fact it was my players that brought up the idea of kicking his behind out. He would play every character just like him: bad attitude, confrontational, extremely secretive for no in-game reason, always trying to derail the other players' campaign actions, showing up late, argueing over rules with me on the net while I was designing the campaign, etc, etc. I even have a simple rule(made up by my players and I): You must have a PHB v3.5 to game with us. If your having financial problems we give you two sessions; since we game every other week this is a nice amount of time. If your just flat broke we'll bend. But one of the reasons we instituted this rule because of him, and because every player should at least have a PHB of their own; he was always complaining and dogging others books but would not buy his own. He bought every new video game but no D&D stuff, so we got sick of it. He expected everyone to supply his hobby needs, while he supplied nothing but attitude. When I finally put my foot down and let him know about his attitude. He one day showed up extremely late(he was always doing something ignorant to get attention and ruin the fun.), after I told him to be there at a certain time, so we left him behind, after that he stopped coming. Do I feel responsible ? No. Do my players think I am responsible ? No. Are we extremely glad he finally left before we gave him the boot ? Yes. So just to let you know it can go both ways(i.e. Be the DMs fault, or, the person could just be a bad, "self-appointed" co-DM, spoiled brat of a player). ~~~
Ut-Napishtim 04-21-05, 02:14 PM	Do I feel responsible ? No. Does my players think I am responsible ? No. Are we extremely glad he finally left before we gave him the boot ? Yes. Yeah, I had a guy like that once that used to complain about anything and everything the whole time. Really got to be a downer on the group, and despite the fact that he was so miserable he just wouldn't leave. Apparently my players thought he finally got tired and left because the other day they were talking about it like: That guy was awful, but apparently he finally got fed-up and left. I had to inform them that no, I actually called him and told him not to come back. They seemed... surprised. :D
LordofIllusions 04-21-05, 02:21 PM	Yeah, I had a guy like that once that used to complain about anything and everything the whole time. Really got to be a downer on the group, and despite the fact that he was so miserable he just wouldn't leave. Apparently my players thought he finally got tired and left because the other day they were talking about it like: That guy was awful, but apparently he finally got fed-up and left. I had to inform them that no, I actually called him and told him not to come back. They seemed... surprised. :D LoL! I think everyone ends up with a player like this sometime or another. The worse thing this guy used to do though was just act like he knew everything about the game, but in all actuality knew nothing. We were playing Ravenloft once--and in RL demihumans are frowned upon; the people are severely superstitious--and he decides he wants to play a fire genasi with flaming hair, and red glowing eyes. Based on some comic book superhero character he thought up awhile ago. :rolleyes: So when I have the NPCs treating him like the devil incarnate he asks me "Why are they angry at me ? How can they tell what I am ?" I responded: "The people of the RL setting are extremely superstitious; I told you this when you decided to make the demon-like character. Once again being Mr. Know-it-all you chose not to listen. Not to mention you have red eyes and flaming hair; be glad they don't start assembling a mob with pitchforks in hand!" ~~~
Draco Strang 04-21-05, 02:22 PM	That guy was awful, but apparently he finally got fed-up and left. I had to inform them that no, I actually called him and told him not to come back. They seemed... surprised. :D Wow....that sure does take a pair. I've yet to actually get up the gumption and flat out tell someone "That's it, you're out, don't come back." Maybe I'm too nice? Well, when I think about the stuff I drop on my players, I realize that I'm not.
LordofIllusions 04-21-05, 02:24 PM	Wow....that sure does take a pair. I've yet to actually get up the gumption and flat out tell someone "That's it, you're out, don't come back." Maybe I'm too nice? Well, when I think about the stuff I drop on my players, I realize that I'm not. It is a beautiful thing when you tell a problem player to beat it. You should see the look on their trouble-making faces when you spring the ejection papers on them. :D ~~~
UltimateReality 04-21-05, 03:59 PM	it seems like your DM may be a bit nervous and unsure of himself.I think the new group (we've all been gaming together in various permutations for over two years now), plus the very strong rules knowledge of some of the players, may be intimidating. it seems like either he did not pay much attention to your character's personalities(i.e. likes and dislikes)--or--he still has not grasped your character's goals, personality, etc. I think a bit of it may be his leaning towards a more hack 'n slash game, too... I would like to talk with him sometime, I think, about my character's goals and motivations. As far as the giving "1000" XP for "attempting to go through the module the way it was supposed to be run", well...that's just funny.He tends to give out xp for very freeform things, but makes sure it all ends up close to the same. Why he doesn't just say, "you all gain X roleplaying xp", I don't know. In the DMG there is a section about DMs that cannot handle variations from the official modules--as in PCs doing something the module did not cover--but that is where the confidence comes in, along with some thorough proofreading and notemaking.It's not that he can't handle it when we deviate: he's great at improvising. He just uses that improvisation to railroad us back the way he wanted us to go. I get the feeling that a lot of his adventures and modules depend on one particular way to solve it, and I think perhaps he gets frustrated when our very opinionated and verbal group chooses another path. Try making him feel like your not blatantly trying to ruin the campaign because it seems like he is scared or that he thinks this is what your trying to do.We are trying not to be problem players, but the outright encouragement of metagaming is really kind of mucking it up for us. It's to the point where TPK and I are rebelling by refusing to use any of the OOC knowledge he's giving us, and ramping up the roleplaying and IC flavour to levels never before seen in our group(s). We're trying to lead him by example, but I don't know how much it's working. How old is this DM ?Eh, twenty-something. About the same as the rest of the group. (Youngest is 18, oldest is probably...24 or 25 I think?) He sounds young--or at least immature to do such a thing.I still don't know what the heck his deal was with that... I usually have the PCs tell me what their backgrounds are in portions, ask them where they want their characters to go(i.e. goals),*jumping up and down* I always put that in a backstory, too. And I try to keep them to a page length. (This one was longer at 4. *sigh*) Character goals are very important, I feel almost central to the game. It's what provides the sense of accomplishment. It's what provides plot hooks. It's what gets the players into the story. and ask them if they want me to write them out or them.Wow, you're nice. I've never known a DM who offered to write the player's backstory down...most don't care if they get point form notes on the back of a napkin, or a 7 page document with fancy fonts and different documentary props, as long as they get something. Is this guy a hardcore video gamer ? Dunno. Never been to his place, but he doesn't talk about video games at all...he does play NWN occasionally from what I can tell, but he hardly obsesses over it. First, let him know what he does do right. Compliment him on his strong points.Good improv skills, keeps the action going, and playing for high stakes -- makes things quite dramatic and interesting. His game is the only one I've sat in where, when the party split up, I found myself comfortably sitting, listening to and interested in the dialogue between him and the other part of the party for close to an hour. No one else has held my attention when I'm not part of the scene for that long. You have to remain cordial. Also, when you play try not to refute the storyline so hard; instead take control of it and steer it in the direction you want subtletly.The problem is we just get railroaded back onto the direction he wants. All he had to do to get us to stay in that village was make us come across it near nightfall, instead of early afternoon. That's it. It's logical that if you come to a town at sunset, you'll probably stay there, right? Whereas in the middle of the afternoon, if you're on the run, you're not going to stop for more than refreshing your supplies. Let some ideas on how he can get you to follow the story kind of slip off of your tongue when you talk with him.After I posted last night, I sat down and typed up a little jot-note thing of various plot hooks I thought he could use to motivate all the characters, and the entire group. I'm seriously considering printing it out and giving it to him next time I see him. The best thing I ever did was set-up character generation/character evaluation sessions. Here the Players get to reinform me of their character's goals, let me know about their character's next destination, what magical items their character's are interested in, etc.I LOVE THESE. Sorry, just have to say that. I love that part of the session, as a DM, and as a player because my feedback is being heard. We really need more of these -- the current DM doesn't do them at all, although after-session usually includes a short discussion of what happened and how we felt about it. (Heh, sounds like group therapy or something. :P) The point is talk, don't whine, and whatever you do don't try to be a co-DM.I'm worried that no matter what I or TPK do, though, we may be perceived as trying to be co-DMs. TPK can have a very forceful personality and way of presenting his ideas at times (read: he's real good at arguing when he wants to be), and it certainly doesn't help that this guy is already intimidated and probably feeling a bit insecure.
FreeTheSlaves 04-21-05, 06:11 PM	Not many people have what it takes to be a decent DM, that's always been a problem for the hobby. The fact that you can identify the deficiencies tells me that you should take up the DM's mantle.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 04-21-05, 07:14 PM	Wrong av, UR not TPK. (My excuse is I just came home from a full day's work.) The fact that you can identify the deficiencies tells me that you should take up the DM's mantle.Heh. I've been told I have good DM qualities before, and I actually tried it for a bit...however, I found I simply couldn't squeeze it in, between university and work. I loved doing it, and my group all said they had a blast, but I just couldn't put in the time and effort to make the campaign kick complete ass. But then I am a perfectionist. Maybe this summer I could do some sort of campaign thing, though...although I'll have to contend with wedding planning instead of school (both about as stressfull and as costly :P).
Aeromus 04-22-05, 01:33 AM	Look, seriously. If you don't like the job your DM does. Ask him to let you DM. Show him the way you like it. Then you can work it out the rest of the way.
UltimateReality 04-22-05, 04:04 AM	Look, seriously. If you don't like the job your DM does. Ask him to let you DM. Show him the way you like it. Then you can work it out the rest of the way.We're already doing this. He's in a group that TPK runs.
Ut-Napishtim 04-22-05, 04:45 AM	Wow....that sure does take a pair. I've yet to actually get up the gumption and flat out tell someone "That's it, you're out, don't come back." Maybe I'm too nice? Actually we tried to work things out with him for about three or four games, but it was just such a huge downer on everybody he just had to go. I was a bit surprised myself as it was the only time in 15 years of DMing I've ever had to ask a player to leave. I've seen a lot of trouble where a couple players can't get along with each other or something and it causes trouble in the game. Usually you just tell them to chill out though and things are cool. With this guy though he hated every aspect of the game that wasn't handed to him on a silver platter, and after he wasted a couple hours of game time arguing because an NPC rancher wouldn't give him a free horse simply because he was a Sorcerer 3 (when he had like 500 gold on him anyway) I just had to call the next week and say: Sorry man, you're outta here. It caused some long-term effects as well. He originally was introduced into the game as a co-worker of one of my good gaming friends that I used to hang out with all the time. Playing Warhammer, D&D, PS2, XBox, go to the movies and all that stuff. So when he brought the guy out I figured he'd be cool too. Of course he turned out to be completely toxic, and ever since I booted him from the group my old bud hasn't gamed with us at all (and this was almost a year ago.) I still say hello and such when I run into him and call him about once a month to let him know he's still welcome at the table when a slot opens up (I cap my games at 6 players) or he can call me if he wants to do some Warhammer or something. I don't know man, he just doesn't come around anymore.
Lincoln Hills 04-22-05, 03:58 PM	1. This storyline involving the man with the sword is a case of faults on both sides. Firstly - as players in the DM's campaign, your group's attitude seems to be, "What? Getting the sword back won't be resolved in a single fight scene? In that case, we quit." - That's your DM's perspective: he'll claim you didn't even try. That said, the plot is clearly linear; and your DM, unwilling to change it. He may be inexperienced, or simply stuck in Video Game Mode as you said. ("They can't do damage to the Man with the Sword NOW, because they have to face him in final battle at the end of Dungeon Four...") When half the characters retire and the other half turn around and get as far from your plot as they can, it's a sign that THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED. Time to bring in a different story. 2. If a DM's attempts at plot hooks seem crude (or "reek of traps",) it is sometimes better to tug at the hook anyway. For several years I too had this strange antipathy toward plot hooks. I would shun them unless they were cunningly concealed or irresistibly baited. Then I realized that if the players don't ever accept a plot hook, they have absolutely no right to complain of a "dull" campaign. I admit that many DMs lack subtlety in this matter, but you have to be willing to meet 'em halfway. Let your character be fooled or lured or ambushed once in a while: you'll find that his life is much more interesting (albeit sometimes much shorter!) 3. A DM who asks for a backstory which is subsequently ignored should be regarded with pity. Mind you, I've had characters supply backstories which absolutely failed to inspire me: and it's also possible that the DM is only willing to focus on one backstory at a time (in which case each character in turn may get his own special plotline eventually.) It does sound like your DM is being inconsistent, which is a major no-no for DMs who want to keep their players.
UltimateReality 04-22-05, 11:51 PM	1. This storyline involving the man with the sword is a case of faults on both sides. Firstly - as players in the DM's campaign, your group's attitude seems to be, "What? Getting the sword back won't be resolved in a single fight scene? In that case, we quit." - That's your DM's perspective: he'll claim you didn't even try.We tried despite a three foot wide path that required balance checks to do anything and a sheer drop 200 ft straight down. And rain, which made it slippery and imposed a penalty on the check, obviously. Oh, and a couple of charging goblins. I can see your point though. From the characters' perspectives, the risk wasn't worth it: risk our necks to get a sword that belongs to a country a party member is wanted in. If the rest of us get associated with her in any fashion, they'll probably charge us with kidnapping and treason (she was supposed to marry a prince, after all) and then execute us... When half the characters retire and the other half turn around and get as far from your plot as they can, it's a sign that THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED. Time to bring in a different story.Which he did. I dunno, I think his hook-planting is what really needs work, the more I look at this. It's just little things. Like I mentioned earlier -- he could've avoided all the hassle if he just made us come across the village at nightfall instead of early afternoon. He seems to be not taking character motivation into account. 2. If a DM's attempts at plot hooks seem crude (or "reek of traps",) it is sometimes better to tug at the hook anyway.This is why, when he had us arrive in the village the first time, I pointedly tried to take the hook. The problem is I've seen him play fast and loose with the rules before, and I think that in a lot of cases his setups/hooks smell like "needs deus ex machina to get us out". In which case he should be writing a novel, not DMing. See, when he was doing the freestyle thing, he'd just change the rules to suit his needs. Now he knows better, and knows we'll see through it and he can't do it, so he'll have to rely on god-saves. For several years I too had this strange antipathy toward plot hooks. I would shun them unless they were cunningly concealed or irresistibly baited.I don't demand a perfect, custom-crafted plot hook, but I do ask that it not look like a trap. Do sane, normal people knowingly walk into what they believe are traps or cons? No. It's like that stupid Nigeria bank funds scam. I'm not going to do it. Mind you, I've had characters supply backstories which absolutely failed to inspire meI'm not asking for an adventure based on it, or even events to necessarily derive from backstories. I just want him to realize that certain things will negatively or positively encourage our characters' involvement in certain things. My character needs a reason, ANY reason, to take this hook. To deliberately ignore the backstory and all the roleplaying that's going on right in front of you every session is just....stunning. (And I mean a general "me", btw, not me personally.) and it's also possible that the DM is only willing to focus on one backstory at a time (in which case each character in turn may get his own special plotline eventually.)Again, if he was focussing on anyone's backstory I wouldn't care. This is, after all, the DM whose table I sat at, rapt, for an hour listening to a scene involving a split part of the group that I wasn't part of. But he admits to not having even read them. I doubt he's going to bother to keep up with our character journals (which is okay, I mostly write mine for myself anyway). Our fledgling roleplayer, however, does need the outside confirmation of his work though, and as a fellow player I can only give words of praise and further RP. These go quite far, but the DM doing it goes ten times further. It does sound like your DM is being inconsistent, which is a major no-no for DMs who want to keep their players.It's just frustrating to me right now. I need to go destress or something...maybe go cook some food or play a computer game. :)
UltimateReality 04-25-05, 07:52 PM	I just wanted to post an update so everyone knows how it went. I IMed the DM the link to this thread, and TPK and I talked to him on Saturday. The session on Sunday was very, very cool. He not only threw us a plausible plot hook (join the military of a country that will protect us from the others, and send us on adventures basically), but tied in one person's backstory by having an NPC know his father. Just thought I'd share a happy ending with y'all. :cloud9:
LordofIllusions 04-26-05, 11:26 AM	I just wanted to post an update so everyone knows how it went. I IMed the DM the link to this thread, and TPK and I talked to him on Saturday. The session on Sunday was very, very cool. He not only threw us a plausible plot hook (join the military of a country that will protect us from the others, and send us on adventures basically), but tied in one person's backstory by having an NPC know his father. Just thought I'd share a happy ending with y'all. :cloud9: Excellent! Great job UltimateReality; you kept it nice and cordial and IMing him this link was a touch of genius. Most moronic players would write up a rant thread and argue with other DMs online--as if that would really solve the problem. I applaud you on your maturity in dealing with the situation between yourself, the other players, and the DM. I had to go through two horrible players before I learned to keep players like you(as they are concerned with improving their characters storyline, etc, rather than trying to be co-DMs. If you want to DM start your OWN campaign.), and can(i.e. kick out) players that are not like you. :D ~~~
sherretz 04-26-05, 03:49 PM	How did he take the constructive criticism and this thread? Did he realize the error of his ways? Did he admit to being a bit intimidated, or was he just misguided by what he wanted to do and that the players weren't doing it?
Capt. Pixel 04-26-05, 04:32 PM	It is a beautiful thing when you tell a problem player to beat it. You should see the look on their trouble-making faces when you spring the ejection papers on them. :D ~~~ Please be very careful when you do this. I once asked a player to leave for repeated excessive inebriation during the gaming session. I don't regret that, but another player left because of his dismissal. oh well. The only other time I've had to ask a player to leave, it was under misunderstood motivations. The young woman I asked to leave was coarse, loud and quite boisterous during the game (yelling, dice throwing, etc.). I had sat with her several times and discussed this behavior and she was working on becoming more cordial. She really was making an effort to fit into our group. The problem became obvious after I finally asked her to leave. It turns out that another player (an older friend of my wife) really disliked this young woman and was intrumental in putting the pressure on to have her removed. After that older woman finally left the game several months later, it became painfully apparent that she had really been the problem all along. I now regret having asked the younger player to leave. She was steadily improving her demeanor and was making a real effort. The harridan never made an effort and, in retrospect, mostly spent her time arguing about the rules, the game, interpretations, etc. (I always think twice now about letting a paralegal play in our games because of her). :cool:
UltimateReality 04-26-05, 06:05 PM	How did he take the constructive criticism and this thread? Did he realize the error of his ways? Did he admit to being a bit intimidated, or was he just misguided by what he wanted to do and that the players weren't doing it?He took the constructive ideas well, he didn't say whether or not he was intimidated (which makes sense -- if you are, you're not likely to admit it :P). I think a lot of it was simply misguided. The session overall ran much smoother. Now we just have to work on getting him to not announce when he's fudging rolls to keep PCs alive. :embarrass That, and we had to convince him that yes, NPCs do get factored into the xp division. My inner munchkin screamed "let him give us more xp", but I and the other players just have too many ethics to let him do that... I'm very excited about next session and my character has lots of plans now. I only hope he'll work with me on them. *eyes gleam with possibility*
black_dog_z 04-26-05, 09:17 PM	I was reading through the forums and stumbled on this msg i havnt finished reading it so wont posy my critismisms. I would like to just state i was running an open ended campaign when i started to dm this group. I never hear any good things only bad ive tried everything i can think of and am thinking of canceling the campaign myself. I've already slowed it down to every second week and unless people are willing to inform me what exactly they are looking for then there is nothing left for this campaign. But i have switched the style to see if this works and if it does maybe we will continue i can dm any style but the more "On the fly" they want the campaign the less i will be prepared for what they do. So hopefully something will work. because i dont want to end the campaign. I am truely a good dm but i need to figure out what the characters want as for the not reading the background stories i have but most of the usable plot hooks don't come to me when were playing and they posted them online and so i cant just read them whereever. although on my part i could print them out. thats i have to say until i finish reading everything here
UltimateReality 04-26-05, 10:35 PM	was running an open ended campaign when i started to dm this group.FWIW, we loved it. Your rules knowledge was shaky, and at the beginning there were certain group dynamics to work out regarding a few players, but I know I speak for TPK when I say we loved the challenges you set to us. The brain food was awesome (especially thinking up a new way to rip off Waterdeep every week). ;) I never hear any good things only badI think this is a plight of most DMs. To be truthful, we are a very demanding group! You are doing really well, honestly. The party is really getting along, despite the constant bantering. ;) Also, a lot of players don't realize how much effort goes into creating campaigns -- even ones done "on the fly". I know when I first DMed that really struck me. It literally is another parttime job. TPK stays up til 3 or 4am to write his adventures, and, in his words, "no one even says thank you". On a related note, have I told you enough yet how much last session kicked ass? ^_^ ive tried everything i can think of and am thinking of canceling the campaign myself. I've already slowed it down to every second week and unless people are willing to inform me what exactly they are looking for then there is nothing left for this campaign.Announce this to them! I know most players will be more than happy to tell you, if asked. Myself, I am looking for lots of RP and I'd love a highly political, intrigue-filled campaign. My character excels in that kind of situation, but utterly sucks in combat, so hack 'n slash is not really her thing. (Dantron, however, lives for it.) as for the not reading the background stories i have but most of the usable plot hooks don't come to me when were playingI would sit down with the backstories and making jot notes outside of gametime. I really liked the way you incorporated Cole's father on the fly, and gave him that gun to strive towards. Just little pieces like that really reward us for taking the time to make up a little background. Re: open-ended campaigns. A lot of more experienced DMs than I can give you advice on finding the balance between preparation, improvisation, and how to subtly railroad us without us realizing it and whining. ;) I'm fairly sure you've heard the old "just because you put the dungeon in the desert and the players went to the swamp, doesn't mean you can't move the dungeon to the swamp". In case you haven't, now you have. ;P One of the other things is to build in multiple plot hooks that eventually lead to the same thing, i.e. what you had planned. It's kinda like if you have set points on the map, and how the players decide to go is their own thing, but they will run into the pieces. There's a section on it in that Robin's Laws book I showed you. (I can dig it out if you want.)
Head_PC 1 04-27-05, 01:40 AM	Hit him on the head with a PHB and overthrow him. You must band together with the others! Huzzah!
Aki Warren 04-27-05, 11:18 AM	Actually, I had a problem similar to yours. My DM was railroading our party CONSTANTLY. But let me show you this We have me, who's been playing for 11 years Mike, who plays for 2 and two girls who are new, although I played World of Darkness with them twice each. Very new. Now, I roll a cleric. 2nd session, I die. Why? I prayed to my god, Tempest, who was upset I had killed 4 goblins at level 5. So...I was turned...into...a statue...? Riiiight. Next I roll up a psion. We run into the Old Man Who Done It (8-bit theater!) and despite our attempts, we can't leave him. He and two of his friends are level 35 easy. The laws of magic are his *****. Why does he need 4 level 5's? I feel useless. Anyway, I cast a spell that lets me use energy stored up. He got mad that I blew up a building with my stored up energy because it was housing an elf (an elf racist player!). Next time I cast the spell my memory is wiped. I forget the spell is active. The DM says "You have an itch". Well, being a good RPer, I scratch it, lol. I died. Both times were deliberate attempts to kill my character. I never got a saving throw, not once. He seems obsessed with the idea that I am a power gamer. Once again...straight cleric. Yeah. Wow. So, I told the DM that if he doesn't stop this, my next character will be the uber munchkin of death and anything that can kill me will kill the party too. Cause I will use them as a shield. He asks what wrong. After calmly (I have a temper, but I calmed down quickly) explaining to him, he promised I can roll up a new character, whatever I want, and that the Old Man and crew will leave. I asked him if the adventure will be a little more open-ended and he agreed it'll be so. Cause good damn, half the fun of being in an evil party is scamming people! BTW, the dm has been doing this for 2 years. He does often ask me for rules advice and such things. Whenever I dm I ask my players that every 3 sessions they please write a review of what I've been doing wrong or good. I put in more of the good, less of the bad. Sometimes there are problems, but I try to make everyone have a challenge, get rewarded, and have an awesome time.
LordofIllusions 04-27-05, 12:33 PM	Please be very careful when you do this. I once asked a player to leave for repeated excessive inebriation during the gaming session. I don't regret that, but another player left because of his dismissal. oh well. The only other time I've had to ask a player to leave, it was under misunderstood motivations. The young woman I asked to leave was coarse, loud and quite boisterous during the game (yelling, dice throwing, etc.). I had sat with her several times and discussed this behavior and she was working on becoming more cordial. She really was making an effort to fit into our group. The problem became obvious after I finally asked her to leave. It turns out that another player (an older friend of my wife) really disliked this young woman and was intrumental in putting the pressure on to have her removed. After that older woman finally left the game several months later, it became painfully apparent that she had really been the problem all along. I now regret having asked the younger player to leave. She was steadily improving her demeanor and was making a real effort. The harridan never made an effort and, in retrospect, mostly spent her time arguing about the rules, the game, interpretations, etc. (I always think twice now about letting a paralegal play in our games because of her). :cool: My group--and myself--dismiss problem players without blinking; now players that want to improve(thus not "problem players") can remain as long as they like without worrying about getting ejected. The difference between the two is a true problem player does not want to improve; if a player is having problems within the game but looks to improve upon his shortcomings he/she is not a problem player. Also, any player that wants to follow a "problem player" out of the door is welcome to do so. Problem players are intent upon making problems in the game--for both the players and the DM--so any player backing a problem player is soon to be--if they are not already--a problem player themselves. ~~~
UltimateReality 04-28-05, 01:45 AM	:bump: Hit him on the head with a PHB and overthrow him. You must band together with the others! Huzzah!Yeeeeah, how about not? That's the last thing the guy needs. As far as I'm concerned, the game needs all the great DMs it can get, and he definitely has the potential to be spectacular. I just want to ease the learning curve a bit if I can. (so, black_dog_z, get your butt online, finish reading this thread, and start pestering people like I do! :P)
LordofIllusions 04-29-05, 08:37 AM	:bump: Yeeeeah, how about not? That's the last thing the guy needs. As far as I'm concerned, the game needs all the great DMs it can get, and he definitely has the potential to be spectacular. Once again--just by the way you encourage your DM, remain diplomatic with him, are concerned about being a player rather than a co-DM, and do not attempt to berate your DM on the boards--I can already see you are a great player. The players I have now--after cutting multiple spoiled gamers that seem to plague 3E--are great but I wish I had always run across players like you; so I never would have had to experience munchkins. Happy gaming! ~~~
black_dog_z 05-03-05, 08:02 PM	i been thinking things through with some of our other members not actualy mentioning anything of course but we think its better to keep 2 good players and lose 1 over keeping 1 player who isnt that great and losing 2. do you see where im getting at here. So if you guys still want to be in it msg me and let me know you can txt me or ism me either works. if you choose not to :allalone: msg me the campaign will continue at nates and if you ever feel like rejoining just let me know cause i realy dont want to lose you expecialy since we just got the problems worked out (as far as i know) :thinks: . So let me know if you dont i assume you don't wanna rejoin and i have replacements :pile: but i would perfer if it was you guys. there will be no hard feeling if you don't come back :weep: so its up to you.
UltimateReality 05-03-05, 09:48 PM	i realy dont want to lose you expecialy since we just got the problems worked out (as far as i know) :thinks:As far as I know we did too. Unfortunately, someone else chose to act up....it was completely unrelated to you, and I'm so sorry I had to suck you into the drama. :rolleyes: But I felt you deserved an explanation. I really didn't want to cause a rift between the group or anything...*kind of anxious as to how much everyone else got exposed to this retardedness* As friends, we felt it was really the best thing we could do for him -- and us. When he's ready to try and make positive changes in his life we'll be right back beside him, but right now there is nothing more we can do and he refuses to do anything himself. Also, we cannot permit that kind of behaviour in our household and our lives -- I'm sure you understand. If I don't talk to you tonight, TPK and I will talk things over and try and meet up with you sometime this week? Feel free to email me at my msn, too -- I use that email a lot, so I'll see it. i have replacements :pile: but i would perfer if it was you guys.Oooh...inquiring minds want to know who the possible replacements are! (I love corrupting...bringing new sheep into the flock...introducing new people to D&D, so I always love to hear "I gots new playerz!!") Oh yeah. TPK made me watch some Indiana Jones movies this week. Your campaigns are going to be seriously improved. Assuming my student loans go through for this fall, I may just have the time to make up my own Eberron campaigns instead of running @#$*(%ing modules. (Nothing against 'em, I just have to have a personal investment in the thing or it gets boring and hard way too fast. No emotional connection, ya know?) Anyway, if you haven't read the Eberron Campaign Setting yet...do it!!! This thing has awesome flavour and I think the entire group will love it. I know I did a complete 180 after I started reading it. The art took awhile to grow on me (except the comic book style parts; I still don't like those) but the rest of it fantastic. In fact, I think I'm going to go read some more of it right now... :lightbulb (Good way to put off cleaning the living room.)
Sargon 05-04-05, 10:23 PM	I didn't have anything to do with this one Draco... Just so ya know.. If the climbing of the montian is impossible.. then how did that other guy do it? That DM is worse than me... but at least i can explain things in a resonable way.. well resonable enough..
The Stray 05-05-05, 12:59 AM	I didn't have anything to do with this one Draco... Just so ya know.. If the climbing of the montian is impossible.. then how did that other guy do it? That DM is worse than me... but at least i can explain things in a resonable way.. well resonable enough.. *sigh* Ok, Sargon. I've had it. I was willing to ignore your problems with Draco while you were complaining on your own thread, but you come over to this one, this single thread which shows a DM actually willing to listen to the comments of his players, and, just because Draco posted here, felt the need to flame him. Why? Why, in God's name did you feel the unholy compulsion to attack him on this thread, when you have your own little *****fest to spar with him? :ahem: :tantrum: :rant: *sigh* Ok. Rant over. Sorry, all, for this off-topic post.
green_yawgmoth 05-05-05, 01:59 AM	Show him this thread. This is the right answer. Make sure you stand behind him and make him read the whole thing, too. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
UltimateReality 05-05-05, 02:40 AM	This is the right answer. Make sure you stand behind him and make him read the whole thing, too.I didn't stand behind him to make him read the whole thing, but I think he got the gist of it anyway. Seems to work better with f2f talks anyhoo, which TPK and I did. So we got it sorted out. Unfortunately, unrelated personal issues with another player have since cropped up. I won't go into detail about them here, as they're irrelevant to the boards. Suffice it to say one player seems determined to burn all his bridges with the group and send his life to...well, somewhere not pretty. This is causing so much drama it disgusts me. The DM isn't very confrontational and the problem player can be an arrogant, obnoxious little bastard when he wants. (Actually, he technically fits the description of a sociopath/APD. That scared me when I realized that.) Seeing as everyone is going to ask anyway, the net effect is that we told the DM that due to issues with APD Player, we were dropping the game. The DM immediately asked "if I dropped APD Player, would you rejoin?" We told him we didn't want to influence his decision. We're honestly not sure if we will or won't. I really wanted to avoid an "us or him" situation. And while it is true that we are the unspoken leaders of our group, I feel really uncomfortable throwing that weight around -- even if I'm not trying to do it, I don't want to be perceived as trying to. The problem is that he is a good DM with a lot of promise and I did love gaming under him. I don't know that I really want/need advice on this; this is a people-problem and not a D&D-problem. No one here knows the players in our group as well as us. TPK has talked to one of the other players in the group, which leaves one remaining and the APD Player. If anyone has any further suggestions, though, I'm game.
Draco Strang 05-05-05, 03:28 AM	*sigh* Ok, Sargon. I've had it. I was willing to ignore your problems with Draco while you were complaining on your own thread, but you come over to this one, this single thread which shows a DM actually willing to listen to the comments of his players, and, just because Draco posted here, felt the need to flame him. Why? Why, in God's name did you feel the unholy compulsion to attack him on this thread, when you have your own little *****fest to spar with him? :ahem: :tantrum: :rant: *sigh* Ok. Rant over. Sorry, all, for this off-topic post. Wow, I have external, unsolicited support. This is awesome. *Pssssst.....Stray, the money's in the 3rd mailbox on Main Street* Sargon, look at the post dates. I was last involved with this thread about two weeks ago. Seriously now. Why even bring my name up again? I didn't do anything to provoke you, and I've actually replied to several of YOUR posts in a very respectful, helpful manner. That thread is closed. Get over it man.
The Stray 05-05-05, 03:41 AM	Wow, I have external, unsolicited support. This is awesome. *Pssssst.....Stray, the money's in the 3rd mailbox on Main Street* Sargon, look at the post dates. I was last involved with this thread about two weeks ago. Seriously now. Why even bring my name up again? I didn't do anything to provoke you, and I've actually replied to several of YOUR posts in a very respectful, helpful manner. That thread is closed. Get over it man. :shifty: *checks mailbox* Yay! an extra 42 cents! Sweet! :D ;) Seriously, though, I respect you as a poster (even if I don't always agree) and this unsolicited attack, made simply because you had, at one point, posted some comments on the thread, was enough to goad me out of my normal lurker status and my usual policy of not-flaming-people-ness.
Draco Strang 05-05-05, 10:32 AM	Seriously, though, I respect you as a poster (even if I don't always agree). What the hell is this? What's not to agree with? I'm very agreeable, you know.
LordofIllusions 05-05-05, 12:10 PM	This is the right answer. Make sure you stand behind him and make him read the whole thing, too. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Showing him the thread was the correct thing to do. As far as the rest of that spoiled gamer jargon you just posted: You can't stand behind anyone and make them do anything. That's where alot of players are going wrong, don't make demands, make suggestions. If the DM is a good DM--like the one being spoken of in this thread--he will listen; if not then your just wasting your time argueing and trying to force the DM to be what you want him to be. Leave the campaign. The sad thing is that alot of players do not have reasonable suggestions such as the ones in this thread, they have a bunch of munchkin-like demands(i.e. They want the DM to make the game focus on their character alone and they want things done their way right NOW!. Do realize that the gaming group--especially the DM--usually gets sick of these kind of players quickly; and the player either gets kicked out or sees the dismissal coming and tries to save face by leaving first, so they can claim it was them who left thus avoiding being rejected. Plenty of people with mental problems do this--after they cause problems--to make themselves feel like they were not rejected.). The initial poster handled things correctly. Don't try to corrupt their groups agreeable progress with your disagreeable way of handling things. ~~~
green_yawgmoth 05-05-05, 07:08 PM	Showing him the thread was the correct thing to do. As far as the rest of that spoiled gamer jargon you just posted: You can't stand behind anyone and make them do anything. That's where alot of players are going wrong, don't make demands, make suggestions. If the DM is a good DM--like the one being spoken of in this thread--he will listen; if not then your just wasting your time argueing and trying to force the DM to be what you want him to be. Leave the campaign. The sad thing is that alot of players do not have reasonable suggestions such as the ones in this thread, they have a bunch of munchkin-like demands(i.e. They want the DM to make the game focus on their character alone and they want things done their way right NOW!. Do realize that the gaming group--especially the DM--usually gets sick of these kind of players quickly; and the player either gets kicked out or sees the dismissal coming and tries to save face by leaving first, so they can claim it was them who left thus avoiding being rejected. Plenty of people with mental problems do this--after they cause problems--to make themselves feel like they were not rejected.). The initial poster handled things correctly. Don't try to corrupt their groups agreeable progress with your disagreeable way of handling things. ~~~ You sir, need a valium. I truly fear for your life, because with an attitude like that, you're going to have a heart attack in 5 years. Some people have to be handled like children, because they never matured past that point. And some people have to be watched in order to get them to read large things like this thread or else it just won't get done. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but don't start jumping up and down and flinging poo because I differ in opinion from you. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
UltimateReality 05-05-05, 09:05 PM	Wow. This is only my second thread ever to degenerate into people arguing about a moot point. (I'm not counting the one where people starting outright flaming each other; the topic of the post was controversial to start with.) Hm. Well, not much left for me to do except :pint:
LordofIllusions 05-09-05, 03:16 PM	You sir, need a valium. I truly fear for your life, because with an attitude like that, you're going to have a heart attack in 5 years. Ah so your a drug-user and a fortune teller ? You've been playing too much D&D. Time to come back to reality. Some people have to be handled like children, because they never matured past that point. And some people have to be watched in order to get them to read large things like this thread or else it just won't get done. If the DM does not want to read it he will not read it. By standing there watching him/her--like some kind of role playing police--you only make yourself look like a moron. Know this, whenever a person has made up his/her mind on certain things there is little anyone else can do to change it. Ultimate is blessed to have a DM that did take a look at the thread. However if he had decided to not look at it--and continue gaming the way he was--the only choice Ultimate would have had would have been to roll with it, become a DM and run her own campaign, or leave the campaign. This is common sense, not an opinion. ~~~