Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NiteCyper 02-07-07, 01:10 AM	So, here's what happened. My group is good-aligned and when I first joined, I decided I wanted something stealthy and became a Rogue/Assassin. I didn't know how to use him and got bored. As any newbie, I was excited and kept telling my group at lunch what PC I would be, changing my mind every other day. After one session my group went on a long break, I thought we'd broken up. At our latest session where my DM told me I had to stick with one and couldn't change it for the rest of the campaign and at the time, I was fiddling around with the Hidden Gnome build from the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook, of which there is a link to in my signature. I then said that I was going to change my PC again but not to a different build, still a Killer Gnome but still broken. At that point, my DM had enough. The following is a recorded conversation on MSN between me, NiteCyper and Jon, my DM. It took place only a few moments before 2200 hours on 02/6/07. Mentioned for reasons pertaining to editing. None of the text has been modified for simplistic reasons. Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: So, I'm out? Jon says: yup Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: Why? Jon says: because you don't contribute to the group Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: That's because of the PC I chose. Jon says: no its because you have a new Character every session and none of them are original At this point, I was trying to find words to explain how I felt just then. Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: D&D is a game like I've never played before. The only games I've played have been about fighting and the only other non-fighting thing which brought me to the idea of playing such an open-ended game as D&D is because I've roleplayed, (not in a video-game) without combat before. It's my desire to mix two of my favourite things but the idea of roleplaying and not being good at combat (other than a Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: flavourful character that would be either funny or interesting in ways not truly associated with combat) is hard for me to do. I play computer and games way too much, I need limits so I don't try and use Pun-Pun, and the only reason I didn't use him was because it's so obvious how playing him with immediately ruin any reason to play. Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: I've met other newbies before, stirring so excitedly with the idea of D&D, they have to do something in between their 'tormentingly long' weeks between sessions. While I waited, I had the mad greed for optimization, my first mistake. Almost everyone on those forums knows that min/maxed builds like they have created are rather not for use in campaigns, but simply to display how powerful it could've Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: been. The exception is when the build is more of a play style than min/max. Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: This may be biased, but if I were the one to somehow keep someone in my situation suppressed from going over the top, I'd suggest roles that the party might need and tell me that it'd be better to start off easy than making a full-blown gestalt Ur-Priest/Radiant Servant of Pelor/Duskblade uber-broken one-man army. Real life example. Although you can't stifle the need for 'speed' (drug or other obs Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: ession), you can redirect that eagerness into other things like the PC's backstory or... yeah. You can probably think up something else to channel that into. Does that mean anything to you? Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: If it were my only choice, I'd play that Half-Elf Bard. You and the guys have get me in the D&D craze, though that may have been years ago, I'm in it. I'd find any interesting way to play it! Studying D&D (and webcomics) are all I have left, if you haven't heard, my mum took away all my books and laptop with D&D books on it so I will work on my homework. I won't beg to you, but I will persevere. Jon says: Ok I get where your coming from. you should try to start purest and make a character using only the players handbook, the party has an arcane spell caster (two actualy) a fighter (again two), and a monk. that leaves a spot open for a devine user, (maybe a palidan because you can go into melee), a stealth character, or a nature user, (again the half casting of a Ranger might work for you). try and Jon says: stay away from builds and stick to one character and fully develope him Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: No PrC? Jon says: 'PrC'? Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: Prestige Class. Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: I have to progress 20 levels in a core class? Jon says: yes you can use Prestige Classes from the DMG but no exceptions that means you're not alowed to be an asasin Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: Assassin is from the DMG... isn't it? I'm sure it is. Jon says: yes but I'm running an non evil story so you can't be an assassin Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: OIC. Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: If possible, can you tell me what classes and races the other people in the group are? Classes don't always fill the role they're s'pos'ter. Jon says: joey: goliath fighter/stone lord, Juno: gnome technomancer, Mathew: human warblade, Jake: half-elf soceress, Rapony: human monk Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: Warblade does what? Throw things was it, or just stance specialist? Technomancer, correct me if I'm wrong, simply sends in his little buddies. What sort of spells can he cast, like in the way of a role? And what's a Stone Lord do? Jon says: stance specialist, yes thats right, alot of conjuration spells, some earth based abilities like stone shape Jon says: gtg bye Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: cya What I'd like is all the poster's opinions on this. How do you feel about my responses/questions? Also, what roles could I fill and how best to optimize them? I don't think you can easily break core, though I know it's possible.
StoneStokes 02-07-07, 02:01 AM	First of all, I would suggest you edit your first post and take that conversation out. Summarize it for us. Two reasons: (1) we only need a summary; (2) it is somewhat unethical to share written correspondence between two people (even if you are one of them) with the public without permission of all correspondents. Second, are you trying to create uber builds? Are you trying to break the DM's campaign? Your last sentence is where I am confused on this. If you are trying to break his campaign (which I think is the less-likely case), then I would suggest you just walk away. You will be doing everyone a favor. If you are not trying to break his campaign, then just pick a core class and go with it. You are new to the game so I'm sure you will have a blast playing ANY character. But you need to give the character time to grow and develop. Your character's personality probably won't be fully developed for many many sessions. Your DM is letting you pick prestige classes, but you might even want to avoid those. Core classes can be very fun, especially when you are learning. Now your class options. The DM has pretty much laid out the classes he wants you to play: Cleric, Druid, Ranger, or Paladin. If these don't work for you, you can talk to your DM again. With a group that size, it's not so bad to double up on class rolls. However, it would be best for the group if you could fill the Healer role. I suspect you will grow bored with just being the healer in the group, so if you decide to go with Cleric, I would suggest you choose domains that are not related to Healing. Strength and Magic are both good domains to get out of the Cleric-as-party-medic role. ...Actually, there is a very good article for you to read HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061226). Good Luck, StoneStokes
HamHam 02-07-07, 02:07 AM	(1) we only need a summary Actually those usually turn out rather one sided, from what I've seen around here. (2) it is somewhat unethical to share written correspondence between two people (even if you are one of them) with the public without permission of all correspondents. No it's not. It's like quoting something they said, except it's more accurate.
Yokomohoyo 02-07-07, 03:02 AM	I would suggest to go druid from what Ive seen in your post. Your DM wishes you to stick with a core class and your party needs a healer. Now a Druid is somewhat of a healer and is a good melee combatant and a average spell caster... Your responces where fine btw, I didnt find them to be offencive nor did your DM (from what I understood in his words) since he's still letting you play.
IceFractal 02-07-07, 04:17 AM	I second Druid, it has a number of good points for this situation: 1) Straight Druid 20 is quite effective. 2) You can do a variety of different things - buff people, blast, summon things, wildshape and kick ass, wildshape and spy on people, etc. 3) The different spells and animals available mean you can try out lots of different stuff without switching characters. 4) You can buff and heal the rest of the party, but also be able to kick ass yourself, even if you run low on spells. 5) If you gain access to other books, you can incorporate new spells and animal forms without rebuilding the character.
Cold Napalm 02-07-07, 04:29 AM	Okay so your group is more of a RP game and less of a hack and slash. That fine. You wanna fit in with your muchkin tendency (I mean really only barely refraining from using pun pun instead of abject horror at the thought clearly marks you in the muchkin territory). Thats good. Okay so how do you go about doing it? Well limits wont work. He is giving you clear use of druid aka CODzilla. I'm sorry but the core druid can be made into something way WAY scarier then a mere whisper gnome assassin build. So what you need to do is what he told you to do. Think of what you want your character to do. To be like. Then work on the "build". Don't start off on the build and fit a story, make the story and then fit a build to it. I know it sounds like they will get you the same place, but trust me, there is a world of difference.
wonlee76 02-07-07, 12:08 PM	Looking over the conversation, it looks like your DM is more annoyed/concerned about your indecisiveness. For some DMs, this is a red flag on whether your can stick it out with your PC for a long term campaign where a DM may be developing adventures/plot hooks based on a PC's development in a game. A campaign isn't a series of random one shots for your players to trounce through. There's a "reason" why your trouncing through the adventure and that reason may help your PC's development in some manner. Maybe you're rescuing a family member from a BBEG. Maybe you're searchin for lost magical lore that will save the world... etc. etc. Success in these adventures carry over in the future as your PC's reputation/character/etc. are being developed. I generally dislike DMs who suddenly put a clamp on your choices for characters that is uneven compared to other players (he's restricting you to DMG prestige classes while others don't have a similar restriction) but in light of your indecisiveness and being new to the game he may be doing you a favor by narrowing your focus down on a handful of choices instead of a million and one choices. If you want to fill a different and useful role for your group, a cleric or druid would fit the mold due to lack of a divine caster in the group. Based on your desire to "kick ass", druid is probably a bit more practical than a cleric since cleric would spend too much time buffing up to kick ass while a druid could just stay in wildshape form and have natural spell feat to cast buffs or other spells to help the group. Your new to the game, go with the flow of the group and try out one character. Druid and Cleric are probably the easiest classes to play with minimal effort to make them "powerful". They get all their spells up front with only a prayer to deal with. Since they're divine casters, it does force you as a player to RP a bit to your god/goddess or follow whatever precepts/beliefs you might deem is fitting (which is RPing by the way so good practice for you). Cleric/Druid easily fills two different roles (primary caster and primary/secondary tank depending on character build) for the group so with that type of flexibility, it shouldn't be too boring for you.
Mysteria 02-07-07, 03:12 PM	Try to go here to develop your character background. http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=340
elondir 02-07-07, 03:42 PM	I third druid. It's the most powerful core class in the game. Natural spell is a must-have, if he lets you take that feat.
SokenzanMarauder 02-07-07, 04:41 PM	I can see where your DM is coming from. I've had to DM for a player that changed characters each week because he thought up a new 'build.' Trust me, it gets very irritating having to rework key things because a player can't make up his mind. That said, I suggest Druid as well. -Gene
EyeontheMountain 02-07-07, 06:08 PM	If you are new to D&D don't try and use anything from the Char OP boards (and maybe not even when very experienced) Pick one class and learn the game fromteh ground up. Doing otherwise is like reading all the cheat and walkthroughs for a game before you even experience it. Druid sounds the best for a strong, versatile character.
NiteCyper 02-07-07, 06:15 PM	What's CODzilla? We are actually more of a hack n' slash, I mean, we haven't gone far in the way of plots. I'm not sure if it all has to be core. What I said at the end was not meant the way it sounded. I don't even remember clearly now what I meant at the time, but definitely not that I wanted to have an uber broken core build, although that is what I want. Frankly, the last sentence was meant for refraining from suggestions of campaign smashers. I know that the Cleric and Druid happen to be considered the best along with the Wizard. How is the Cleric so good? It has to do with some of their spells and Divine Metamagic right? I might just stick to core-only. I'll be sad that I won't get more than that. By the way, the Killer Gnome is only a campaign smasher after level 17 and I think anything at penultimate level 20 should be broken by that time, but that's just me. I thought it would have been fun to play it, just that my excuse was, when I used the Hidden Gnome build, I had to rush to get it finished and it wasn't truly done yet. DM didn't care. Druid is good because of spellcasting and wildshaping, most particularly with using the Natural Spell feat to cast while wildshaping, correct? This interferes with how much splat my DM would allow and how much splat I want and wanting to keep the DM from getting ****** at me again. Help me with this too. Anyways, if I wanted to heal, then I'd make a half-decent healer half-decent broken-in-one-ability character. I say, if you wanna heal, do it good. I would've made a RaySoP (Radiant Servant of Pelor using Reach Spell to heal empowered maximized blah-de-blah from range), and I just made that up! If I'm gonna stay core, suggest some flavourful characters that'd be fun to play and describe how. [@Cold Napalm:] My DM said the same, make a story fit the character to it. I was gonna make a backstory for the Killer Gnome but now I don't feel much for it. I'll try though, I've been pretty depressed lately and I'm not sure if I'll get around to it. Edit: My group didn't start from level 1. We started at level 5, I got in at level 8. Reason, the DM said level 1 adventures would be boring for him. I know, I know that it's how you play it that makes it fun. If you want, you can give me your message that I can redirect to him.
Cold Napalm 02-07-07, 06:58 PM	Okay you don't need much to break druids beyond natural spell (a core feat) and core spells. Stay in the combat wildshape of choice. Cast summon whatever you want. Cast animal growth on you, your companion and the summons and slaughter whatever gets in your way. Also since greater magic fang and other buff spells are shared with your companion, it can get even worse from there. The cleric broken goodness usually stems from persistant DMM divine favor and might, but you can of course just cast the spells and still be very good. You want the war domain for weapon prof and focus in diety weapon. Also NEVER pull a CO board build on a new group. EVER. If after a campaign or two, the group is of like minded powergamers and the DM does infact enjoy running these high powered games, then use it, but it's generally bad form to join a game with a CO build. That includes using the core druid 20 like they suggest BTW...
DarkNick 02-07-07, 08:38 PM	I think you are extremely keen, which is really good, but I think that you are pretty full-on. I bet you are a blur of thoughts. You want to sample everything at once without sitting down and just enjoying the basics. To work with this group I think you need to settle down a bit. The key thing I got from your above conversation is "you don't contribute to the group". My advise is this: make sure you compliment other players on how well they did - congratulate them (do this and they will want you back). help other characters - back them up, protect them, share your gear if they need it. Follow another characters lead (you're the newbie afterall). watch and listen before you act, see how the other players behave show some humility If you can't do these then maybe you should find another group more suited to your tastes.
hunterc311 02-07-07, 08:41 PM	I'm kinda confused about one thing. Why do you want so badly to play in this group? They were all ready to flat-out reject you without another thought, and the DM decided to tell you over text instead of in person. There will be awkwardness at the next session, and you will be scrutinized often from this point on. It may be difficult for you to truly cut loose and have fun. Why stick around? As an aside, it's unusual to hear someone blatantly admit that they are bent on breaking characters, which you seem to be, and not realize the inherent skepticism that draws from many DMs. It's clear that you like to powergame, but you try to soften/justify that by continually referring to it as "just having fun with the character". Still, your intent is clear - and you're in a brand new group of people whose styles you aren't familiar with yet. It would be infinitely wiser of you to just go in humble and play a simple character first, get comfortable with the group and let them get comfortable with you, then in the future, if it is appropriate for the group and the DM, start enjoying your min/max obsession. ;)
NiteCyper 02-08-07, 12:23 AM	Pre-Script: Anything with a * on it means I am not liable for any amount of rambling or trailing off or lack of coherence in that paragraph. [@DarkNick:] I don't contribute to the group in ways of friendship. My excuse for the Assassin staying with the group was sentimentality. If one of the player's were to be killed, I'd try to save them, IC I wouldn't have openly shown my care for the others. That's how I was planning to play him but never got the chance. As well, the others in my group are in the same grade except the DM and a friend of his, and I don't remember exactly but I'm quite sure, that they started at level 5. They aren't that experienced. We are ECL 8/9 right now. When we play, we don't have a true leader in our group, we sort of wing it and watch the results, y'know? There's not that much order, we just do our best in a crappy sort of way. :D I can't settle down when there are so many books, so many options. It overwhelms you, that's what turns away most newcomers from D&D, I believe. All my friends and I joke around and don't RP much, though I try but the atmosphere almost doesn't allow it because we're talking OOC 80% of the time. It's not like I criticize them, except maybe the DM's brother for using a CC but I apologised, I was just being whacky. 2 others in my group and I were joking about killing his CC, only because it wasn't from WOTC, that's irrelevant.* [@hunterc311:] The others in my group don't play D&D like people on teh borads sema 2 duzors. You guys play it as you know it is, adventuring with endless possibilities. My friends play it as just another game, they think of all their games equal. When I play, I get serious, which is a bad thing for sportsmanship. D&D isn't directly related to contests which means I can be less of a sore loser and think about the other things I can do. Again, my last sentence didn't mean that I wanted a broekn char 2 smatch my DM's gaem cuz I ar mad @ him. Sure, I want and would play a build that smashes a campaign but only after a certain point where it doesn't even matter anymore (i.e. penultimate Epic and beyond.) because I believe, at level 20, any character should be at full power and able to take on teh world. I wasn't blatantly saying, hey guys, my DM's saying core only and stuffz cauz of my 1337, i wants to break his game wiht core, help plz? kthxbye* I don't even know if I like to powergame. I haven't been able to yet! In my encounters, the only triumph I can remember is Color Spraying a group knocking one unconscious and blinding another :P while my team took care of the rest in a jiffy, pummeling them. The reason I stick around is cause I can't find another group. Online groups aren't trustworthy because my mum can take away my computer freely effectively terminating any sessions with them. IRL groups are not easy to find. I've applied for one at a local gaming store but I haven't heard from them and my mum doesn't say it out loud, but it's obvious she frowns upon me and having fun.
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 01:30 AM	Can I suggest something? Broken isn't good. EVER. Most of the time it annoys me when I have a new player for the same reason your dm is mad at you. Does that mean toss the newbie? NO! Then they don't learn. As for a charactor concept there are many to choose from out of phb and dmg. You party sounds like it needs divine guidence. Druids are actually rather annoying in most of my campaigns cause I like to do a lot of storyline in cities which they naturally avoid. So here are two suggested charactor concepts. Both divine in nature. 1)Elven cleric 8 lvl's, god Corellon Latherian, domains War & Protection, Feats dodge mobility weapon finess, skills perform 3 ranks tumble 5 ranks. Then go Duelist from dmg. This allows the caster aspect while prviding a good offensive. 2)Cleric/Rogue this is a good multiclass. It allows for stealth and healing. Also if the need should occure a sneak attacking inflict does hurt most anything you can touch. Both of these allows you to flex your range. As for why a Cleric basically they are the most potent divine caster as well as combat tanks in and of themselves. They buff themselves before hand and heal themselves afterwords. Thier attack is always the same as the Druid. Also the lack of additional work to maintain you animal is good for a beginer. The hardest part is remember to pray and select your spells daily. If you are doing this I.R.L. which it sounds that you are I suggest having a spell list ready and asking you DM to remind you till you get the hang of it. Bieng a caster does suck somedays.
NiteCyper 02-08-07, 10:59 AM	So, shall it be a core Cleric or a core Druid? I don't know how to make a poll. Druid has its wildshaping with Natural Spell, which I'm sure is not 'too' hard to keep track of, and the Cleric has their spontaneous healing and buffs with some average combat modifiers. My DM said I can use any weapon from Gryphon or Pocket Magica. Not really source and I don't have the books. If I were to roleplay them, I'd have to note the Druid's affinity for nature and avoidance of cities, though I'm not sure how prominent their discomfort in cities is, and the Cleric's religion, I don't know if they act superior or humble. I may not be experienced, but I still know how to handle a PC.
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 12:29 PM	So, shall it be a core Cleric or a core Druid? I don't know how to make a poll. Druid has its wildshaping with Natural Spell, which I'm sure is not 'too' hard to keep track of, and the Cleric has their spontaneous healing and buffs with some average combat modifiers. My DM said I can use any weapon from Gryphon or Pocket Magica. Not really source and I don't have the books. If I were to roleplay them, I'd have to note the Druid's affinity for nature and avoidance of cities, though I'm not sure how prominent their discomfort in cities is, and the Cleric's religion, I don't know if they act superior or humble. I may not be experienced, but I still know how to handle a PC. cleric = think priest you can be superior or humble priest are either it more of what you inately are rather then what someone expects of you Druid = think of the nastiest filthiest room you ever saw. thats what a city is. everyone has ruined nature and made it into a crap hole.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-08-07, 01:08 PM	personally you sound like a dolt to me. Your DM sounds like he wants to run a more balanced game, you just seem to want to break everything and overcompensate for something I can't say here. I have a challenge for you though. try and make a Role playing character. You can still optimize this, but it has to be done in a certain order. Step 1) come up with your character concept. this is who and what your character is. Focus on its personality and out look on life. Then what does it do? Here's where the fun part comes in. You have to do this with out using a single mechanical term. Things like divine spell caster, any class name, ability name, feat anything like is out. Ex: John the spy. John has away with people that make them trust him. he uses this to discover their secrets. he has many contacts, and people on the street who can find out things for him. John is also a master of disguise. His enemies must be wary of this for that servant serving water may just be him. Above all else though John loves a good adventure, and will take on missions out of the goodness of his heart. Primarily John fights police corruption. Step 2) Come up with a back story for your character. Ex: John's father was a police officer. he was very moralistic, and made sure that John new the difference between what was right,, and what was wrong. At a young age John's father ran a foul of a gang of corrupt cops. They killed johns father and framed an innocent civil for it. John vowed vengeance, and knew that he could not just challenge the police openly. John met a beautiful performer named Sarah. She was able to teach john how to make disguises, and how to listen with out appearing to listen. She also tuaght john that law was not always right. With her help John was able to uncover the gang of corruption, and pressure the city leaders into acting. The corrupt cops were hanged, and the framed man escaped. John however was unable to find the ring leader, and he escaped. John continues to search for him to this day. Step 3) Mechanically state out your character. using core only anyone wanna take a stab at what John's build is?
NiteCyper 02-08-07, 07:54 PM	John is a Rogue? In his younger years, he lived quite the normal life. NiteCyper, the illusory Gnome you see (or don't ;) ) today, used to be just like any other Gnome. He had a pleasant semi-subterranean community with friends he will always remember. He'd always been a reader, helping his arcane abilities and furthermore, learning just how incredible and vast this plane of Toril was. His gut stirred with the innate desire for adventure. Keeping to his studies, he was always improving and 'demonstrating' his illusionist abilities upon others, never in a harmful manner. He specialized in his craft like no other of his family, becoming something talked about most often the few months just previous to his most important month when he traditionally prepared his 30-day marathon of great arcane skill for entertainment only a few others in his multiplicity could contend with. His community was very supportive of each other, he'd always miss that. Of course, that wasn't enough to stop him from exploring the rest of the world and challenging all his passions to the limits. The library was a plethora of magic resources that attributed as a great boon to developing his skill. He was an only child but his family was vast, like any other Gnome's. Many of the males in his family had explored the world but NiteCyper's father met his true belle here, where he planned to stay. As a result, a lot of the equipment he needed was easily obtained from his family and the community's charity. Despite all this, NiteCyper had one single difference that changed his whole life and never allowed him to return to his community. Shadow magic, the Shadow weave. A stream of power that many believe to corrupt anyone of any pedigree. Anyone had tried it at least once and quickly knew why it was avoided, but NiteCyper was a different case. On his first attempt, he had woven the Shadow weave into one of his illusions and the results were awe-ful. He sensed the power in it, he didn't deny it or resist it. Gradually, in secret, he wove it into whatever he could imagine, finding that everything seemed to be enhanced and felt slightly different, not in a bad or good way. Inevitably, the knowledge got out and the environment changed for him altogether. There was not so much warmth and support from his peers anymore, they all gave him the evil eye. His best friends may not have been so outright with him, but he could sense from the tremor in their voices, his mere presence made them uncomfortable. It was devastating but too late for him to turn away the Shadow weave that which was intertwined directly with all his great magical powers, and what a price it came as. In near silence and without more than two glances, he took his favourite possessions, his spell component pouch, some durable clothes and set out. Their eyes, a weight on his back. However, he looked forward to his new career of adventuring and taking on the world! He breathed in the fresh air and took his first steps towards a new life.
Serrin 02-08-07, 08:02 PM	I agree with everyone else except OTWoTPK. Play a druid.
LoNLinaChan 02-08-07, 09:15 PM	I agree with everyone else except OTWoTPK. Play a druid. omfgwtfdtsm
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-08-07, 09:48 PM	Close...you almost had it, untillyou mentioned the shawdo weave, and shawdow magic. bopth are game terms. You could have said something about a dark magic, or mentioned the faruin Godd(dess) by name. Perhaps referred to her way of catsing of how the shawdow weave actually works. Your back story also doesn't really explain why your character fell in with an evil church, or how he master the use of said dieties powers. In core John could be a rogue, or a bard, or ranger for that matter. really depends on which mechanical template one would want to use to represent John. I agree with everyone else except OTWoTPK. Play a druid. Care to explain why? Is a druid inherantly better for role-playing any other class. Or do you say play a druid becuase of it is more powerful then any other core class? With the soul certia being healing magic, and core only. Your base class choices are: cleric, ranger, Paladin, druid, bard, and rogue (UMD is your friend). If you include mystic theurge into the mix then even the arcane casters can be added to the list. And when one considers multiclassing then really any class, so long as it is mixed with one of the above mentioned classes, will work. Also within a reasonablely balanced campaign any of the classes can be made powerful. Maybe not as powerful as the druid, but powerful in their own right. I would also question the logic behind playing the most powerful thing he can. Especially when he is on the verge of being booted from his game. Really is it sound advice to sujest the he play a camapign smasher (C.O.Dzilla), after the last one he played just about got him booted? Why **** off the DM more by heaping inter-party balance issues on him? *Disclaimer* I don't feel the druid is any better, or worse then any class RP wise. their all equal.
Serrin 02-08-07, 10:36 PM	I say druid because they can be flashy when they want to be, and subtle if they have to be. You can bust out the cool moves when you have to, and you can blend in with the rest of the party if anyone starts feeling the caster envy, and just buff them and junk. You can also start scaling your power at any point you want. If the rest of the party suddenly starts taking awesome feats, but you just took a feat level, you don't have to spend 2 levels being overshadowed, you just have to get the DM to allow some new wildshape forms from non-core books. Or spells. I was going to get through this reply without being frustrated, but then I read "campaign smasher". Do you know what a campaign smasher is? It's a term invented by LordofProcrastination to describe any build which is several orders of magnitude more powerful than any non-campaign smasher build. Things like Pun Pun, infinite turns through celerity abuse, arbitrarily large bonuses through call lightning and shambling mounds, arbitrarily large strength through cancer mage and festering mage, and so forth. A core class is not a campaign smasher. Druid is not a campaign smasher. It, intelligently played, is one of the stronger core classes. That's it. I really don't think telling him to make a "roleplaying character" (I'm not even going to discuss the Stormwind fallacy here...) is going to fix any issues when his group is OOC "80% of the time". The problem that the DM talks about isn't that he smashes the campaign, rather, he says he doesn't contribute anything and changes his character every other day. So give him a character who's flexible and versatile. Want to be completely different? Don't have to make a new character, just pick a new favorite wildshape form. Druid is just the cure. Also, roleplay like the rest of the group. Judging from the description of the group, it doesn't sound like that's terribly...uh...involved.
NiteCyper 02-08-07, 10:47 PM	So what if Shadow Weave is a game term? Toril is a game term. Gnomes are a game term. Illusionist is a game term. Why replace a game term for the sake of not using a game term? You sir are mad! Shadow Weave sounds fine, get over it. Again, what the heck is CODzilla?! I can't think what those three letters stand for! What is Soul certia? Also, it is within my right to play any core character if he says that's what I get to choose from. He may model the adventures after him, but choosing a character to suit the DM is not really the point of D&D is it? It's that you get to choose what YOU want. Edit: What does my saying campaign smasher have to do with Druids? I never said Druids were campaign smashers. Just forget what I sound about campaign smashing.
Serrin 02-08-07, 11:04 PM	Sorry, Cyp. CoDzilla stands for Cleric or Druid...zilla. I don't have the faintest idea what "soul certia" is. If I were you, I wouldn't be taking advice from a guy who called you a dolt. onthewingsofTPK is the one who called druid a campaign smasher, so my comments were directed toward him. See as follows: Really is it sound advice to sujest the he play a camapign smasher (C.O.Dzilla), after the last one he played just about got him booted?
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-08-07, 11:42 PM	1) When i say campaign smasher, I'm not referring to anything like pun-pun or shock therapy. (however the OP did state he consider playing pun-pun) I am referring to playing a character exponentially more powerful then everything else in the group with the potential to a) derail, and unbalance the DMs campaign, and b) outshine or overshadow other members of the group. C.O.Dzilla has the potential to both those things. 2) Whether or not DM is about to boot him for power is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was that his group is getting fed up with him, adding more problems to the mix won't help. Instead of being upset with him for changing his characters like his clothes, they will be upset with him for being a show-off munchkin who hogs the spot light. (Again i am not saying that either optimizing, or playing a druid means you are a show-off munchkin.) 3) C Core O Only D Druid 4) The challenge was to come up with a concept that uses no in game mechanical terms. Technically "arcane magic" is an in game term as well. The point is not try and find a way to mask mechanical terms. It was an exercise in separating flavor from mechanics, so that one can develope a concept free of the mechanics that represent it. Then once that is developed go and find the mechanics that best represent the concept. It gets away from warping a concept to represent mechanics. That by the way is why things like the Storm wind fallacy need to be stated. People feel that out landish characters with feats, and abilities and what not are not role play characters. It has nothing to do with weather or not they are optimized. It has everything to do with mechanical choices and aspects that defy everything from physics to logic to common sense. Some them worse then then that seen in bad sci-fi movies. When someone chooses to play a character like that it stretches the suspension of disbelief like used taffy. It honestly gets to the point were it becomes a turn off for those of use trying to play the game for more then just jumble of high bonuses added to numbers generated randomly on a plastic cube. It'd be like if you were watching the lord of the rings, and Sam pulled out an Ak47 and started blowing orcs away, while Aregon all of sudden discovers the force, and Fordo some how begins to cast magic spells. All with out a warning, or even any reason given for their powers at all. I can remember arguing for the storm wind fallacy before it was even called the storm wind fallacy, but what pisses me off is how the concept has been corrupted and twisted away from what it was. Instead of it being held that "optimizing and role-play are not mutually exclusive" it is heralded as the excuse of munchkins everywhere. "You can't tell me that my broken character of doomzours isn't an RP character, storm wind fallacy!" I'm sorry but storm wind fallacy or no, making a character that makes no sense at all, or playing a character purely for the sake of ultimate power is not, nor will it ever be a role-play character. And that has nothing to do with optimization, and everything to do with a lack of Role-playing.
Serrin 02-09-07, 12:22 AM	So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. C.o.D.zilla: Cleric or Druid zilla. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=778617 is the dictionary. Campaign smasher is an already defined term. Use the word however you want, but saying that any time a character overshadows another that he's a campaign smasher is like me deciding to use the word "freak" to describe, say, anyone taller than me. Here's my radical solution to the druid's powerlevel: play a druid, but at an appropriate powerlevel. Don't bust out the fleshraker dinosaur if your fighter takes skill focus (diplomacy). Or Monkey Grip. It's really that easy. Plus the great thing about druids is there's so many lame forms with one cool ability, that you can easily gimp yourself in combat but still feel awesome because you can, say, turn the enemies' weapons into rust. Variety is the spice of life. If you ever get bored with your druid, all you need to do is pick a new wildshape. It's almost as refreshing as playing an entirely new character. As far as a "roleplaying character", it's not very hard at all to say "yeah, Codzilla was a human born in a small village allied with the local fey. Then some orcs wiped out half the village, and he was then trained as a nature-loving magic-user to defend the village and live in harmony with the land". Depending on WHICH half of the village got wiped out, it might not even invoke the Certain Parental Doom theorem. We're not talking about a half-golem, half-illithid with levels in Noctumancer and Nar Demonbinder whose feats are all Willing Deformity (body part). Which sounds like a blast to RP, by the way, but I just made that up off the cuff. So what you're saying is that if you play a character straight by the dice, and don't roleplay at all...then you're not roleplaying? No way. I don't believe it.
NiteCyper 02-09-07, 12:29 AM	Quote from the chat, <Aramek> CODzilla means "Cleric or Druid" It speaks toward core-only DMs that think everything non-core is overpowered. Play a cleric 20 or a Druid 20 and prove him how powerful you truly are. I'd like to say, I only asked what COD stood for. I didn't say I wanted to break my DM's campaign or anything. The last sentence he posted was not a question of mine he answered. I never said I considered playing Pun-Pun. I said why I would NOT play him. Arcane magic is not a game term. Arcane, by dictionary definition, means: known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric: She knew a lot about Sanskrit grammar and other arcane matters. Arcane is also often used as to describe something having or characterized by magic. Just because it happens to be in D&D does not make it a game term. Well, maybe it does, but not originating from D&D. 4) I lost ya. The Killer Gnome is broken at level 17. I have 9 levels to go through and the higher you go, the longer it takes. It would feel satisfying to finally reach that level of power if I play through all the sessions to gain that XP. If I were making a character to fit the story, I might as well make a story involving a diversified character of great power instead of something like a chick flick. Obviously, you wouldn't make a character from a chick flick as you wouldn't make a character from a (back)story that was originally designed for the purpose of being entertained from the events, not truly the character themself. Prestige Classes were made to fit characters with backstories like that, if I made a character to fit the story, I'd have to hope there was a Prestige Class like it. Core classes don't exactly fill out all the sorts of characters you see and would like to play unless you can find it in your conscience to justify it by roleplaying them different, giving them the appropriate feats and skill points in the right areas, but the class will always be the same.
Cold Napalm 02-09-07, 03:07 AM	Umm and that is why the DM is fed up with you. Your so into the mechanics that you can't seperate it from your character. This is not a video game. Mechanics are important, I know. My favorite class is the gish and you can't be one without PrCs or doing something really stupid like playing a cleric that doesn't heal and calling him a wizard (and even that doesn't work out all that well outside of FR with their magic domain...then you break...badly). But like I said, make a character first, THEN build. If you need help with the build, trust me, the CO people can make ANYTHING work with any restriction the DM gives you.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-09-07, 06:02 PM	Umm and that is why the DM is fed up with you. Your so into the mechanics that you can't seperate it from your character. This is not a video game. Hmm I don't wheather or not to be horrified at the idea, but I agree with this. Playing a character, "by the dice" is not role playing. It's Rolling a bunch of dice with your friends. If thats what floats your boat cool, but me, I need something that requires a bit more thought. Mechanics are important, I know. My favorite class is the gish and you can't be one without PrCs or doing something really stupid like playing a cleric that doesn't heal and calling him a wizard (and even that doesn't work out all that well outside of FR with their magic domain...then you break...badly). But like I said, make a character first, THEN build. If you need help with the build, trust me, the CO people can make ANYTHING work with any restriction the DM gives you. Whats wrong with fighter X/wizard X or perhaps meleeX/caster X. Actually while we're on that topic I'd to point out that; A) the eldritch knight is core, B) the spell sword trades arcane spell failure for 25% of it's caster levels, C) The duskblade is niether a PrC and only gains a maxium of 5th, D) while limited to blasting the warmage gains armour profiency, and E) the magic domain is core. Quiet frankly your inability to play a "gish" with a PrC, or a core only "gish" is not a problem with material. It is in fact a lack of ability on your part. While we're on the topic of gish and core only. Lets look at the "weak" cleric that can't heal, shall we. Ok first off the so long as the cleric is either good or nuetral it can still sppont cast heal spells. lets see your PrC gish do that. Secondly I can still use magic wands, scrolls, and other spell competition items as though it were a wizard of half its level. Again magic domain is in core. And we still have one domain left over, well we could go knowledge for gaining the knowledge skills as class skills. Or we could go for melee dashing fun with the stregnth or destruction domains. Its a fighty cleric pretending to be a gish so lets go with destruction. What else does the cleric "gish" have over the wizard variant? well a d8 HD over the wizards d4. Oh and it can were full plate mail with out any chance spell failure, all at the bargin price of nothing! Plus becuase it is in melee combat, it's buff spells are stronger. All this and we haven't even left the PHB. But wait theres more, becuase you don't have to qualify for any PrCs you get all your feats devoted to whatever you want, like say metamagic feats! Oh, still need more? Ok well if spont casting heals, zero spell fialure chance, and more hit points aren't enough. You still dominate over undead. Turn undead always a ccrowd pleaser. Well untillthat radiant servant of plaor shows up. But then again you guys went to the same school so its all good. And again thats all with just core. Start adding non core material and you open the way for fun things like persistant metamagic, and devine metamagic. heck you even have fun PrCs like the enlightned fist, and war priest to through into the mix. Personally Id say that a cleric is a better gish then most gishes are. but thats a rant for another thread, witch i think I'll start during reading week.
Cold Napalm 02-09-07, 06:53 PM	TPK I said no PrC, so no EK. Yeah yeah you can do the straight split but your power level is so off if you do that it's not even funny. I played that and by level 13 I was not only not helping the party (that stopped at level 7) but I was actually a liability. From actualy play, I will say that a fighter 10/ wizard 10 is not a viable character in the very least. This is why I didn't play 3rd ed beyond my first game when it first came out until they published the first spellsword prestige class (as weak as thst was compared to the current version). That made my favorite archetype viable in this edition's rather STUPID (IMHO) multiclassing rules. Now with all the PrC goodness out there, I can do a lot more (I particularly like AC and the master specialist as I have a soft spot in my heart for the abjuration school). Of course I'm still gonna be weak compared to the CoDzillas... As for the cleric and renaming it bit...well it's just that the spell flavors just seem a bit off...at least until you use the magic domain. Then you just get scary with the anyspell and greater any spell.... And this honestly isn't a mechanical issue, but the others player have this disconnect that always says why is you cleric not casting heal spells despite the fact that I have repeately said that this is NOT a cleric. Metagaming issues aside though, I can't describe it, other then playing this felt off and required a lot of flavor reworking on my and the DM part(my 3rd try at playing a gish in 3.0 ed without the spellsword...the 2nd was going all wizard with still spelling everything...trust me that doesn't work either, the armor and sword was just show that cost me basically spell progression of worse then sorcerer). I gave playing gishes 4 tries in all together without PrC and came to the concluesion that it's either mechanically balanced infeasable or flavor rewritting efforts not worthwhile (especially when the other players will metagame and ruin it anyways). I'm sure there is a group out there that can reflavor a cleric to be a gish...I haven't seen that group yet. And yes the duskblade works as a core class only gish...but took them how long?!? And it's not even all that great compared to PrC gishes, but I whatever, it actually works if your goings for a blasty gish. If you wanted to play a different one, your out of luck with it's rather limited spell list. So yes mechanics are important. I get that. I held onto 2nd for 2 years because DMs could not understand this little fact and that the MC system just plain does not work for caster multi classed characters. This is why certain PrC, like arcane trickesters, elditch knight and mystic theurge shoul not be lumped with prestige classes. They are what amounts to a fix for a very badly thought out multiclassing system and they shouldn't even be in the DMG as optional but the players handbook (once again IMHO).
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-09-07, 07:23 PM	saying that a cleric isn't a cleric because it doesn't focus on healing is like saying that a wizard has to cast fireball, or it isn't a wizard. It's a logical fallacy, and really doesn't make much sense. Further more the gish cleric, and john both prove that flavour and mechanics are separate. Actually come to think of the storm wind fallacy works along the same lines. You can play an optimized character and role-play at the same time. You can separate out mechanics, and flavour.
Bruunwald 02-09-07, 07:24 PM	I think you should listen to your mom and do your homework. I also think you should listen more to what people are telling you and try to resist the desire to pipe up and be right. For instance, when your DM told you not to go looking for outrageous prestige classes and limit them to what you could find in the DMG, minus assassin, you too, too quickly pointed out that assassin was in the DMG and that you were sure it was. The rest of us understood without being told that your DM does not want you to play an assassin. You had to be told twice because you were too busy trying to be right about where it could be found, and trying to use that as a wedge to being allowed it. Your later response to another poster had a couple of these things in it, as well. Deliberately being obtuse is an extremely aggravating behavior. Using it as a wedge to "ignorant" other people into giving you what you want is downright repellent. Think before you respond, be reasonable, stop trying to "win" every argument, and you'll find your DM is probably much more receptive to your thoughts.
Cold Napalm 02-09-07, 07:51 PM	saying that a cleric isn't a cleric because it doesn't focus on healing is like saying that a wizard has to cast fireball, or it isn't a wizard. It's a logical fallacy, and really doesn't make much sense. Further more the gish cleric, and john both prove that flavour and mechanics are separate. Actually come to think of the storm wind fallacy works along the same lines. You can play an optimized character and role-play at the same time. You can separate out mechanics, and flavour. I'm sure there is a group out there that can. Like I said, haven't been in one. The closest I ever got to pulling this off was playing a cleric of mystra and I introduced myself as a champion of mystra to everyone. This worked for about 2 session when somebody noticed I was a cleric from the inflict spells I was using. Sigh. Oh and when I say no healing magic (since no healing magic is one of the canons of D&D arcane magic) I mean NO healing magic. I refues to cast healing spells...period. That's not what made the feel off. It's hard to explain, but I play casters a lot and maybe that has something to do with it, but it's just feel off okay. Accept that it just does not have the same feel for me. Go try it yourself and see if you come to a different concluesion. Make a cleric gish, don't heal and tell me if it feels similar to playing a blade singer, spellsword or even a duskblade. For me, it really just doesn't, metagaming from other players aside. And yes I am familar with the flavor and mechanics are seperate arguments but I disagree with that. SOME flavor and mechanics can be seperated...actually a vary large amount of it, but unless you have a mechanic as a feat or class feature that says you can use your dex for your to hit roll, you use your str for it. It means your 8 str 20 dex rogue without weapon finesse can say he's a nimble graceful fighter, but without that mechanic to back it up, he's still just using his strength (and being just very bad in combat). You can't remove the flavor of some of the mechanics. You can't remove the flavor of power attack being tied to strength unless you remove that 13 str requirement. I mean if your REALLY willing to put in the effort, anything is possible, but that will include quite a bit of house ruling in there.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-09-07, 08:44 PM	So long as it is an, I "feel" agruement then we really should stop discussing it. I won't pretend to tell you how you should "feel". However i will state that other then "feelings" and opinion you have presented no other valid agruement as to why a cleric can not be a gish, in the since of fighter spell caster. Mechanics do back up flavour to an extend. I'm not agruing that either excludes the other, and both are part of the game. however it is the extent of that that I am agruing here. the rogue lacking weapon finesse may still present himself as a "nimble fighter if he takes ranks in tumble and the like. he is also still relying on a high dex bonus to AC to avoid being hit in combat. The 8 strength only imposes a -1 to hit. that could be over come with flanking, or attack while the oppenent is flat footed. Also there is a feat in the PHB II that allows a +4 bonus when some uses the tumble move action in conjunction with an attack. (Try combining it with a scot, fun stuff.) However i did advise a player that if he really wanted to play the party face that his first level of fighter may not be the best bet. Having only 2 skill points/level and dip/bluff being cross class skills it would be a hard sell mechanically. Although on that note I only cautioned him against it, but would have worked with him to make it work. I guess the best example of mechanics representing flavor would be a character that casts spells. that would imply that the mechanical template that one chooses to represent it should have some form of spell casting attached to it. Or at the least multi-classing into something that did. But that still leaves a wide variety of classes that may be appropriate for the task.
Cold Napalm 02-09-07, 10:06 PM	Well by the most basic general application of gish, clerics and druid are a perfect fit as they are fighter spell caster from the get go, but there is something more to it then just that. I know, mechanically they fill the fighter magic user role exceptionally well (better then most true gish PrC classes in fact). But the offically gishes are suppose to be arcane caster/fighters. That arcane word has a lot of legacy and canon attached to it. This means a lot of reworking of a cleric to make it fit that legacy and canon (like not casting healing spells, no use of divine focus, meditation instead of prayer and even removing the turn ability since rebuke makes more sense with necromancy magic then turning). Thats a pretty significant change in mechanics and a COMPLETE reworking of the class flavor to make it fit when you can use the PrC that are designed to fix the inherant flaws in the MC system to start off with (eldtrich knight). And to top it off, because I have legacy and canon in my subconcious, it STILL didn't work and it felt wrong anyways. I mean even without the years of playing caster messing with my head, I'm sure even a new player will still feel it being a bit off if s/he has read the PHB. You can't get that out of subconcious once it's in there. So it's a lot of work for very little return.
Magrus 02-09-07, 11:23 PM	@ NiteCyper, You are trying to play Diablo 2 with DnD rules. It doesn't work. At all. It's no wonder your group and DM were ready to toss you out. My players would have begged me to see you got booted. I have the same problem with wanting to try EVERYTHING out, yet you have to figure a character out, and then play it. Test it out, see how it does. Once you get a feel for it, you can switch to something else in a new game. Your DM put down rules. Stick to them. You are new, and you already frustrated everyone in your group. Get out your PHB and pick a character. Don't bother with anything from any other books. Get a feel for the game, and get used to how your group does things for right now. Maybe down the road you will learn stuff from them, and they will come to truly accept you, and they may compromise and learn stuff from you. A happy medium. Or, you can keep trying to make broken builds, and find a new group. Whatever works for you.
kelvinaw273 02-10-07, 06:31 PM	May I add to the advice above .. this sounds like an RP heavy group, so don't treat a character as s et of mechanics. Come up with a concept, an idea for a personality or backstory you like the idea of. Then try to build the character mechanics around the concept and not vice verse. Remember the saying: attitude is everything. Sometimes you can pull things off with sheer daring, not with fancy mechanics. As a GM in one game I had an entire party intimidated by a single NPC any of them could have beaten ... but they had such an attitude, a detirmination to not back down, that (a) they thought this NPC was actually tougher than they were, and (b) even if not, as the NPC was on their side it really wasn't worth calling their bluff on it. Moreover, it helps you get to like the character, and it shows your group you are taking a different approach to the game.
NiteCyper 02-10-07, 07:55 PM	I think you should listen to your mom and do your homework. I also think you should listen more to what people are telling you and try to resist the desire to pipe up and be right. For instance, when your DM told you not to go looking for outrageous prestige classes and limit them to what you could find in the DMG, minus assassin, you too, too quickly pointed out that assassin was in the DMG and that you were sure it was. The rest of us understood without being told that your DM does not want you to play an assassin. You had to be told twice because you were too busy trying to be right about where it could be found, and trying to use that as a wedge to being allowed it. Your later response to another poster had a couple of these things in it, as well. Deliberately being obtuse is an extremely aggravating behavior. Using it as a wedge to "ignorant" other people into giving you what you want is downright repellent. Think before you respond, be reasonable, stop trying to "win" every argument, and you'll find your DM is probably much more receptive to your thoughts. I may be trying to win, but if you let people win, you lose self-confidence. I am merely presenting a discussion to prove that I lose without a shadow of a doubt. Better than being told, I'm a dolt and believing it right away. Jon says: yes you can use Prestige Classes from the DMG but no exceptions that means you're not alowed to be an asasin Michael (a.k.a. NiteCyper) Junior Senior - Move Your Feet http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKcDa0Kp2K8 says: Assassin is from the DMG... isn't it? I'm sure it is. ^ I responded by saying that because I thought he might've mistaken the Assassin PrC to not be in the DMG. I wasn't going to say that I really wanted to play the Assassin again. As a matter of fact, I stated that I got bored of it at the start. Geez, don't get so uptight. @ NiteCyper, You are trying to play Diablo 2 with DnD rules. It doesn't work. At all. It's no wonder your group and DM were ready to toss you out. My players would have begged me to see you got booted. I have the same problem with wanting to try EVERYTHING out, yet you have to figure a character out, and then play it. Test it out, see how it does. Once you get a feel for it, you can switch to something else in a new game. Your DM put down rules. Stick to them. You are new, and you already frustrated everyone in your group. Get out your PHB and pick a character. Don't bother with anything from any other books. Get a feel for the game, and get used to how your group does things for right now. Maybe down the road you will learn stuff from them, and they will come to truly accept you, and they may compromise and learn stuff from you. A happy medium. Or, you can keep trying to make broken builds, and find a new group. Whatever works for you. I've tried Diablo but from my childhood, I've been afraid to play single player games. I only frustrated my DM, nobody else cared. Like I said, they play D&D like they play any other game they buy at EB. Again, the build is broken when it reaches penultimate epic, it's not broken at level freakin' 8. As a matter of fact, at level 9, I'd be able to help the group with conjuration [summoning] and whatnot. Half of that comment was good stuff though. May I add to the advice above .. this sounds like an RP heavy group, so don't treat a character as s et of mechanics. Come up with a concept, an idea for a personality or backstory you like the idea of. Then try to build the character mechanics around the concept and not vice verse. Remember the saying: attitude is everything. Sometimes you can pull things off with sheer daring, not with fancy mechanics. As a GM in one game I had an entire party intimidated by a single NPC any of them could have beaten ... but they had such an attitude, a detirmination to not back down, that (a) they thought this NPC was actually tougher than they were, and (b) even if not, as the NPC was on their side it really wasn't worth calling their bluff on it. Moreover, it helps you get to like the character, and it shows your group you are taking a different approach to the game. Your opinion is stupid and I don't care. If you believed what I just said, you are obviously prejudist. Anyways, I get what you're saying. It's been said before, not that I'm dissing it. For anyone else trying to find the part where I reply to the 2 'dolts' discussing on the this page, I don't. I've stopped reading them as they've gone on about Cleric and Gishes, not that there's anything wrong with that. That does make me think if there's a Cleric gish out there. One last thing, but they had such an attitude, a detirmination to not back down, that (a) they thought this NPC was actually tougher than they were How can courage make you think someone is tougher than they actually are? Isn't it the other way around? I might just be having some muddled clarity on whether you were just stating a fact that was not related to them being determined.
kelvinaw273 02-10-07, 09:17 PM	I may be trying to win, but if you let people win, you lose self-confidence. There are no winners and losers in D&D. You seem to be approaching it as a pile of mechanics with a numerical solution and a need to outdo everyone else. It isn't that kind of game. Your opinion is stupid and I don't care. Hey, just trying to be constructive and assist you in resolving your problem ... if you don't want it resolved, no skin off my nose. If you don't agree with me, you don't have to be rude about it. Anyway, why does suggesting role-playing as an option in a role-playing game mean I am prejudiced? One last thing, How can courage make you think someone is tougher than they actually are? Isn't it the other way around? I might just be having some muddled clarity on whether you were just stating a fact that was not related to them being determined. Like I said, attitude can be everything. Good acting (read, role-playing) can really make a difference in a game, and it is a lot of fun.
NiteCyper 02-10-07, 11:44 PM	Hey, just trying to be constructive and assist you in resolving your problem ... if you don't want it resolved, no skin off my nose. If you don't agree with me, you don't have to be rude about it. Anyway, why does suggesting role-playing as an option in a role-playing game mean I am prejudiced? If you believed what I just said, you are obviously prejudist. I never said you were prejudist. Unless you believed that I thought your opinion was stupid and I didn't care, although that opinion differs after reading my own quote. In my quote, I wasn't saying what you said. In bold, I stated, what I said. Hope that isn't too confusing. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Lastly,There are no winners and losers in D&D. You seem to be approaching it as a pile of mechanics with a numerical solution and a need to outdo everyone else. It isn't that kind of game. When I said,I may be trying to win, but if you let people win, you lose self-confidence. I am merely presenting a discussion to prove that I lose without a shadow of a doubt. Better than being told, I'm a dolt and believing it right away. I wasn't talking about winning in terms of having a better character. I was talking about the other poster thinking that I wanted to play the Assassin, which I didn't. I quoted some stuff and gave comment to prove my point to that poster.
Magrus 02-11-07, 12:16 AM	*sighs* This is bothering me. I was about to ignore it and go back to drinking, but the poster above me was nice enough to use the correct spelling without correcting you and rubbing your nose in it. You were rude to him however, and then went back to butchering the spelling of the word. It is prejudiced. *deep breath* Ok, I feel better now.
NiteCyper 02-11-07, 12:26 AM	*sighs* This is bothering me. I was about to ignore it and go back to drinking, but the poster above me was nice enough to use the correct spelling without correcting you and rubbing your nose in it. You were rude to him however, and then went back to butchering the spelling of the word. It is prejudiced. *deep breath* Ok, I feel better now.Well, I considered the words prejudice, prejudist and prejudiced and compared them to racist.If you believed what I just said, you are obviously prejudist.If I replace prejudist with racist, it would be like so,If you believed what I just said, you are obviously racist.I think it fits. I'll check the verb meaning: (courtesy of dictionary.com) to affect with a prejudice, either favorable or unfavorable: His honesty and sincerity prejudiced us in his favor. So it's transitive. You are obviously prejudist. You are obviously affected with a prejudice, either favourable or unfavourable. Sounds about right.Anyway, why does suggesting role-playing as an option in a role-playing game mean I am prejudiced?in a roleplaying game mean I am affected with a prejudice, either favourable or unfavourable? They both sound right. Edit: Logically, racist is an adjective, therefore prejudist is an adjective. It would make sense whether it was transitive or not. For example, if I replaced prejudist with the adjective 'stupid'.If you believed what I just said, you are obviously stupid.
chava 02-11-07, 01:07 AM	Not all words can be made into adjectives. Why? Becuase English needs to have loopholes about itself.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-11-07, 01:15 PM	The major porblem with your line of thinking is that "prejudist" is not a word at all. One an be prejudiced, meaning they hold certain prejudices to be true. But one can not be prejudist as it simplely is not a word within found in the english language. Secondly I fail to see how taking the words that you type up onto this thread at face value is prejudiced at all. Are we supposed to believe that you are in fact full of :censored:. Given the median all we have is the written word, and sarcasm can be very hard to detect. Mind you believing what you say in sarcasm to be what you actually mean, does not indicate prejudiced, just a error in judgment. While similar racism and prejudice are similar, they are not the same. Racism refers to prejudices pertaining to ones race. Example: "Black people are better at sports then white people." While prejudice refers to preconceived judgments made about anything. Such as, "All import cars are better then domestics." Or "Hockey players are better looking then football players." Racism is the micro, and prejudice is the macro. For example if I were to say "Spanish people are all taller then Asian people." It would be both an example of racism, and prejudice. However if I were to make the statement, "All imported cars are faster then domestic cars." It would be prejudiced, but not racist. Dictionary.com defines stupid as such: stu·pid /ˈstupɪd, ˈstyu‑/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[stoo-pid, styoo‑] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -er, -est, noun –adjective 1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull. 2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question. 3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party. 4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio. 5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue. 6. Slang. excellent; terrific. –noun 7. Informal. a stupid person. And prejudiced like so: prej·u·dice /ˈprɛdʒədɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prej-uh-dis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -diced, -dic·ing. –noun 1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. 2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. 3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. 4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending. 5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority. –verb (used with object) 6. to affect with a prejudice, either favorable or unfavorable: His honesty and sincerity prejudiced us in his favor. and finally racist: –noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. [Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism] —Related forms racist, noun, adjective As we can clearly see the three terms have different meanings, and are thus not interchangeable. Have a wonderful day, and thank you for coming out.
Greg K 02-11-07, 01:47 PM	"Spanish people are all taller then Asian people." It would be both an example of racism, and prejudice. Actually, I don't consider the above to be racist as there is no inherent value judgement being made with regards to height being favorable/unfavorable or making one group inferior/superior.
NiteCyper 02-11-07, 04:12 PM	Y'know. Reading through these posts and the posts on my new Character Wealth by Level Formula thread makes me think mostly only smart (and possibly nerdy) people play D&D.
kelvinaw273 02-11-07, 04:56 PM	I never said you were prejudist. Unless you believed that I thought your opinion was stupid and I didn't care, although that opinion differs after reading my own quote. In my quote, I wasn't saying what you said. In bold, I stated, what I said. Hope that isn't too confusing. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Oh I see - sorry as well for getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. Lastly, When I said, I wasn't talking about winning in terms of having a better character. I was talking about the other poster thinking that I wanted to play the Assassin, which I didn't. I quoted some stuff and gave comment to prove my point to that poster. Ah, makes more sense. Yes, I see where you are comming from. Y'know. Reading through these posts and the posts on my new Character Wealth by Level Formula thread makes me think mostly only smart (and possibly nerdy) people play D&D. Damn, he's sussed us! However, we have not resolved your primary problem of getting a character that is acceptable to your DM and group and yet is also one you can stick with and enjoy. Now, what are you looking for and what do you enjoy in a character? And what do you feel your DM is telling you he objects to?
Serrin 02-11-07, 07:02 PM	If you're going to get snippy over diction, you might want to learn the difference between "median" and "medium" before you do it again.
Magrus 02-11-07, 10:21 PM	Y'know. Reading through these posts and the posts on my new Character Wealth by Level Formula thread makes me think mostly only smart (and possibly nerdy) people play D&D. Really? Where?! :eek: Maybe they would have some intelligent suggestions on how to fix spelling and gaming problems? Oh nope, none here. :weep:
Archtyrant Terevoth 02-12-07, 09:34 AM	Here's what you do. 1. Look at the other PCs and their characters. 2. Make a character of equivalent power to them. You already almost got kicked out of the group for being a powergamer. It's time to learn from your mistakes. Err on the side of caution this time around and try deliberately not to make an uber character. Don't be "clever" and try to make a super character within the guidelines of core only, it won't stop your DM from giving you the boot, it will only reinforce his belief that you are indeed a munchkin.