A CN as the 'party leader'... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A CN as the 'party leader'... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
arcady
11-23-03, 02:02 AM Situation is turning out that my chaotic neutral PC is the only viable option for party leader.

A short on the cast:

Tanakar: the lawful evil rogue. A crafty manipulative noble on the run from his father.
Galthunk: the 'neutral'? half-orc barbarian.
Bajyr: the CN Druid with an as-yet unnamed wolf companion.
Sisi: my CN Bard dancer.

The players of the druid and barbarian are the semi quiet types, and the rogue is a more 'in the back character'. The middle two are a little lighter on backgrounds.

That leaves Sisi - she'sshallow, self centered, but charming and manipulative. I'll give her detailed background and personality in a moment.

We're in a city, on the southern end of an Imperial Client-state. Specifically we're in Pagalido, a southern city of Tarisato -a client state to Kalamar- on the edge of the Obakasek jungle.

A large portion of the city population are Hobgoblin citizens of the empire, and assorted other humanoids who profess loyalty. It's a coastal city of -I think- around 8,000 with a very large imperial garrison to fend of jungle invasions from hostile humanoids.

I need to figure out exactly how I should play Sisi, as someone who's going to be the leader of this group, within that framework -given her essentially selfish, amoral personality.

Thoughts?

Usually I play LN, N, or NG, and I'd wager I'm closest to LG in terms of how DnD frames the alignments. This is my first CN from the player end of the table (I usually GM).

Here's the detailed version of her background and personality:

Sisi-Minona Aziri, half-elven bard level 1.
Strength 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 8, Charisma 16 (28 points)
Align: Chaotic Neutral, Hit Points:7
Fort: +1 Ref: +4 Will: +1

Background: Born a slave in Vrandol, Sisi-Minona was trained for a life as a concubine. At 19 she was sold for 130 gold and set to be shipped off to Bet-Kalamar. Her ship was taken by pirates along the way, and Sisi-Minona found herself bound for the markets in Prompeldia after some time among the pirates. An asault by The Brotherhood of the Broken Chain however won her freedom. Sisi was given clothes, a handful of silver, and dropped off at the nearest port. She had no idea what to do with herself -having never been free- so she sold herself as an indentured servant for a period of five years to a band of traveling entertainers. There she honed her singing and dancing as well as concubine skills until her contract was at an end, and she was let go in Pagalido on the southern border of Tarisato. It was during this time that she also made careful observation of her free companions, in order to learn the basics of surviving on her own. She is now 26 and a cross in appearance between a wood elf and a Svimohz-human (looks sort of like a mix of african and korean with pointy ears).

Personality: Sisi-Minona uses the family name of her mother's master, Aziri. She is not fully comfortable with being on her own, and is thus a little unwise to the ways of the world. Sisi views her sexuality as a commodity -it is not a source of joy, pleasure, pain, or remose -merely of gaining advantage. She likewise sees people mostly in terms of what they want from her or what she can get from them. She has no set goals other than surviving and improving her lot. Some would say she is shallow, and this is a product of her background. For Sisi, morality is a non existant concept -everyone's just out to get advantage over everyone else, people are both users and get used.

Feat: Extra Bardic Music (Ult. Feats and Song & Silence)

Special Abilities: the usual half-elf and bard stuff. Bardic Music 5/day

Skills: 32 pts
Bluff +7[4], Diplomacy +8[3+2], Perform [Dance] +7[4], Perform [Sing] +6[3], Appraise +3[1], Balance +3[1], Deciper Script +3[1], Gather Info +7[2+2], Hide +3[1], Knowledge [Art/Music] +3[1], Listen +2[2+1], Move Siltenly +3[1], Ritual +3[1], Sense Motive 3[4], Search +3[+1], Spellcraft +3[1], Spot 0[+1], Tumble +3[1], Use Magic Device +4[1]

Spells (2/-):
Level 0-Filtch (R&RII), Summon Specific Critter [small monkey] (R&RII), Mage Hand, Daze

Equipment: Entertainer's outfit (*2), traveler's outfit, Shoulder bag , waterskin, sap, Shortbow, arrows [20], dagger whip, spell component pouch, Mirror, Sewing Needle, Soap (1 lbs), Mule, Riding Saddle, Saddlebags, belt pouch, 8gp, 0sp, 46gp in jewelry.

Languages: Svimohz, Brandobian, Low Elven, Kalamaran

[b]d20 notes: Filtch lets you have a nearby diminutive object disapear and reapear in your had. Summon critter - monkey lets her get a 'circus monkey' for 1 hour/level. Ritual is a skill in Relics and Rituals that lets a spell caster cooperate with others to boost caster level at the cost of time (and maybe hit points) or burn time/goods instead of spell levels to put metamagic on spells - provided you know the metamagic. dagger whip is from sword and fist - it's a whip that does 1d6 damage.
Vaalingrade Ashland
11-23-03, 02:23 AM If you have to have one, Chaotic Neutral is the best alignment to be. :D

From your personality description, sounds like maybe the easiest thing to do is use your sexuality to *ahem* convince the others to do as you ask. As a bard, it makes it even easier.

If you don't want to do that, or the others aren't mature enough to handle it, there are a few I've used to.. . take control.

- Air of self confidence. Act like you know exactly what you're doing without being boastful. It helps if you win a few small victories first.

- guilt trip/trust. I love this one. Pull them away from bad decisions with "Really, I don't care if you get yourselves ripped to shreds, but I'm not going to be a part of it, and damnit, the last thing I need is your carcasse on my mind -- so here's what we're going to do...

More later, but I hope that helps.
Perseus
11-23-03, 02:32 AM -You could easily play her as a con-artist type. She could come off as a calm, understanding individual who appears non-threatening mediating disputes and handling negotiations. Meanwhile she's really ruthlessly mainpulating the situation to her (and her companions' if you choose) advantage.
-Hiding your pc's selfish nature is the best way to cash in on it.
illiterate
11-23-03, 09:46 AM Your character is definitely qualified to be the "face" of the group.

Um.. How is your party's rogue LAWFUL? WTF??
arcady
11-23-03, 11:55 AM A rogue is a varied concept that covers many angles.

Anyway, any more tips on how this character should go about becoming and acting as a leader, given her self centered and somewhat petty nature?
Dinue
11-23-03, 06:52 PM since the group as a whole has a chaotic theme (except the rogue but thats ok) you can play your bard as the face of the party. using bluff skill and personality to convince NPCs that your group will handle the matter in a respectful way. then take them for all they got, rescue his daughter but demand a ransom, find the lost jewels and keep them, hunt down there oppressors and join them (ie. causing Chaos).
detectevil
11-23-03, 07:11 PM Well, I don't supose a chaotic character will go on giving orders around. If she suddenly sees herself in the position of leader, she will probably just do what is expected of her, and assume others will do what is expected of then.
illiterate
11-23-03, 10:25 PM IMHO, chaotic characters don't have much trouble giving orders. they probably don't like GETTING orders, but giving them is fine.
jasper
11-23-03, 11:18 PM are we talking about party LEADER or party caller?
A party leader is the character who is the face man, talker, diplomat, spokesman between the characters and all the npc.
A party caller is the Player who decides left right attack talk with npc.
Sometimes both post can be filled by the same player.
Sometimes not.
And never kill off the pc because the party caller made an oops.
arcady
11-24-03, 03:56 AM Caller?

In 22 years I've never seen any reference to a party caller in anything other than the first edition DMG - where I've always soundly ignored the concept. As presented there it was the only player allowed to speak to the DM... It smacked of Gygaxian madness. :)

When I say Sisi would be the leader of the group, I mean she would be the leader of the group. No metagaming implied. :cool:

That said, as people I am also sort of the 'face' among the group - being the regular DM and the sort of person who tends to always be in charge of the social network. So in this case I have a character who although nearly opposite me in worldview - has to fill the same shoes in her group that I do in mine.

As for who calls out actions, I've never seen anyone have any authority to call out the action of any character other their own.
Thorak
11-24-03, 07:29 AM There's no prerequisites for party leaders, a CN bard sounds like it would make for a fairly amusing campaign. At least she's relatively intelligent, and all CN really means is she listen to nothing but her own desires, so long as they don't infringe on the freedoms of others (Doing so would make it Evil rather than Neutral). As a 'leader', she'd probably lead by setting what she sees as a good example, and making 'suggestions'. Even if her suggestions carry the force of law within the party, she's still leaving it open for others to voice opinions.

If you think a CN bard was bad, I ended up playing the party leader at one point with a character who really should have been anything BUT the leader. It was 2nd ed, and my character was a dwarven Vindicator, a kind of berserker fighter/cleric. With an Int of 6. And I played him as a middlin psychotic axe-wielding maniac with ADD. In the first dungeon we were in, the party spent a good 5-10 minutes debating which of three tunnels to take. With no distinguishing features to any of the three, my dwarf (who I take my login name here from, btw) just loudly declares he's tired of this chin-wagging, and walks off down the left-hand tunnel. DM grins and says "You guys following? He'll be out of sight in 5..4..3.." Long story short, everyone stopped arguing about where to go, and every decision was relegated to the int 6 nutbag whose idea of tactical combat was "I run at the biggest critter and whack it with my axe till it's dead". I believe the only time he deviated from that was when confronted by some giant alligators, and in a fit of weirdness that he was prone to, he took off into the surrounding forest. Chopping a tree off with his +3 axe with one swipe, and using his Girdle of Fire Giant Strength, he then proceeded with his usual tactic, but wielding a tree.

And every directional choice then onwards was 'left'.
illiterate
11-24-03, 12:13 PM In one game I played (i've talked about this before) we had a swashbuckler kit rogue(2e) who tended to be the party's face when dealing with NPCs, and my dwarven fighter who tended to organize the party in larger combats.

in general, the gm would just ask us all what we were doing, and often a player would point to another and say "I'm following his lead".
MadEdric
11-24-03, 07:59 PM Be the leader without being a leader. That means you just suggest to people and inspire them. The bard never desires to lead the others, but through confidence, goodsense, flattery, guile.. what have you, to get the others to follow her lead.
Being a chaotic sort, don't get upset if they don't follow you, but do remind them when thing go wrong that you had the better idea.
twentythree
11-25-03, 12:37 AM I actually play in a similar situation. I have a CN bard who is the "Face" for the group. He has huge ranks in diplomacy, bluff, etc. He has gotten the group out of many a jam with his fast-talking skills. he usually knows what the party wants and usually go along with it, but there are times when he takes his post to his own advantage. He knows that the monk and Paladin, being of the "we do good for good" mantra, will never accept a reward unless it is thrust upon them. He also knows that many people are willing to give rewards. So often he will tell the person giving the reward that the whole group would like a certain reasonable sum for the 5 of them, but then divide it 3 ways between the 3 that will accept it. This has made him and his party fairly rich. I also am very good at bartering with shopkeepers, and for a fee I will get a better price for my party on goods and services. It all works out to be very fun for me, even if my friends can be slightly annoyed by it sometimes! :angel:
arcady
11-29-03, 08:32 PM I put my character's journal on my website:
http://arcady0.topcities.com/Kalamar/asPlayer/Sisi.html

It's all 'PG-13' as are our games in general. You can find it through the Kalamar link in my signature as well.

It's only the first session to date, but you can sort of see the nature of things. With the game being new, 80% of the talk time is me, 15% is Tanakar, and 5% is the other two. Hopefully that will balance out more over time. :)
Bromabaz Silvertwister
12-01-03, 02:38 AM you want to be the leader?
First, beguile the rogue with your fleshy charms. :drool:
Then, using your new lapdog, have him start a game of cards with the others. Using his roguish trickery, have him win the others' gear, and then lease it back to them. but only if they follow his (your) orders.
this gives you two things: a nice bit of extra gold, and a buffer when the others find out they were cheated.

You can even betray the rogue, telling the others that they were duped.
You're a bard, it's your job to tell stories! and watching as they butcher the rogue would make an excellent limmerick, especally if the rogue was nobility. The group is now leaderless, and fond of you for telling them that they were being cheated by the rogue. And with all your extra gold, you can hire them on as your own crew. Of course, they won't be making as much, because you were cheated by that evil rogue too. ;)
FriendoftheDork
12-02-03, 01:03 PM ok, she sounds a bit more like neutral evil to me, according to background description. You don't go around being chatoic if you're used to being a slave/indentured servant. And anyone without a morality is someone without scruples. and an unscruplous (argh spelling!) character is evil.

BTW i reccomend that you and the other players agree to be loyal to eachother. A chaotic group where everyone just look out for themselves and never makes compromises leads to player killing and unhappy players.

That's why I don't let my players playing evil anymore, it always leads to a bad mood among the players.

But if you can pull it off, fine for you.
danielinthewolvesden
12-02-03, 02:04 PM "Completely amoral" is really more evil than "CN". CN is not "amoral". You know what the Law says, and you follow it because you don't want to get caught- or you don't follow it when you think you won't get caught, and you can gain a lot from it. A CN character still has freinds and companions- in fact they often value their party over "society". Freindofthe Dork makes good points.

What do you mean by "leader"? I agree that the concept of "caller" is relegated to the Dark Ages, but there is a difference between: "leader as in diplomatic face" "leader as in who gives the orders" and "leader as in who makes the final decisions, and gives impetus to the group".

Your character is set up to be #1, fine. Your background and what is basicly a CE alignment makes you unsuited to be either of the others.

True, it sounds like you as a player are doing all the talking and "running the show". But doing so is out of character and belies your background and stated goals- or lack thereof.

What you should do (IMHO)is make your character more "Cg" (that's from the older system, where'd we'd call you "chaotic neutral with Good tendencies"), then change your goals a bit- say maybe you decide that you want to emulate the Brotherhood of the Broken Chain and free others who were in your situation- even if the Law dictates otherwise. This then would give you something of a vague goal "free the slaves" (although of course survival would be #1, as you are Chaotic first- Good second- if that). As stated- there is absolutely no reason for you "party" to be a "party"- no reason at all for you folks to hang together. Bad DM call, that, IMHO. Maybe he has something in store for you all?

I dunno if the LE rogue fits the party at all. However his background does fit the "vague goal" of "freeing the enslaved", as he understands what it means to be oppressed- even if only by his Father.
arcady
12-02-03, 03:04 PM Originally posted by FriendoftheDork
ok, she sounds a bit more like neutral evil to me, according to background description. You don't go around being chatoic if you're used to being a slave/indentured servant. And anyone without a morality is someone without scruples. and an unscruplous (argh spelling!) character is evil. Evil in alignment is a desire to actively do harm. Sisi has no such desire - she's not mean in anyway, nor does she do anyone harm. She's just completely lacking in a moral compass, and focused on selfish goals of seeing to her needs and seeing interactions with others as a means of manipulation or being manipulated.

She's chaotic for that - for her lack of respect for any form of authority or loyalty beyond the practical use she can get from people.

Sisi is, by the way, based on an amalgamation of people I knew when I lived amongst women in the 'sex industry' in Asia - who where I lived where under indentured servitude, being bound into contracts to pay debts incured by them or their families. These women were shallow, self-serving, short sighted, and given to seeing everything and everyone in terms of how touse or be used. That said, few of them were ever mean or hurtful and an equally few were ever kind or helpful. They had no respect for authority or loyalty beyond what was forced upon them.

Being chaotic does not mean you cannot live under a lawful construct (like enslavement), it just means you don't respect or like it - that you serve it only out of need and practical interest rather than loyalty or preference.

A lawful slave is a happy slave -like a dog-, or at least loyal and using the system to argue his/her case. A chaotic slave is a scheming slave, likely to turn on the master if he/she can find advantage in it. I would wager that more slaves are likely to be chaotic than lawful, but then I'm one of the rare modern people to have personally known many of them.

That said, she, and the people she was based on, are very different from me - a person who's focus in life is the pursuit of law and constitutional principles (I'm on a path to become a criminal defense attorney) who seeks to actively help those in their darkest hour, and has often been described as kind hearted (in person, I tend to be harsher online due to my 'technical' style of writing) and decidely 'social-welfare left-leaning'.

So she's a challenge. I know leadership from my side of the coin, but with her I want to seek it from a very different angle - and perhaps come to understand the personality type better by trying to enact it.

The best characters are after all, the ones least like us. The easy ones are the ones like us. :angel:
Voran
12-02-03, 09:03 PM Heh. You could play her as "Thief" from 8 Bit Theater.

I kinda feel any party that allows the Selfish/manipulative yet charming character to be the team leader deserves any flexible changes to division of loot that happens to them :)

"Did I forget to tell you about the "Im the leader" tax? Woops"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arcady 11-23-03, 02:02 AM	Situation is turning out that my chaotic neutral PC is the only viable option for party leader. A short on the cast: Tanakar: the lawful evil rogue. A crafty manipulative noble on the run from his father. Galthunk: the 'neutral'? half-orc barbarian. Bajyr: the CN Druid with an as-yet unnamed wolf companion. Sisi: my CN Bard dancer. The players of the druid and barbarian are the semi quiet types, and the rogue is a more 'in the back character'. The middle two are a little lighter on backgrounds. That leaves Sisi - she'sshallow, self centered, but charming and manipulative. I'll give her detailed background and personality in a moment. We're in a city, on the southern end of an Imperial Client-state. Specifically we're in Pagalido, a southern city of Tarisato -a client state to Kalamar- on the edge of the Obakasek jungle. A large portion of the city population are Hobgoblin citizens of the empire, and assorted other humanoids who profess loyalty. It's a coastal city of -I think- around 8,000 with a very large imperial garrison to fend of jungle invasions from hostile humanoids. I need to figure out exactly how I should play Sisi, as someone who's going to be the leader of this group, within that framework -given her essentially selfish, amoral personality. Thoughts? Usually I play LN, N, or NG, and I'd wager I'm closest to LG in terms of how DnD frames the alignments. This is my first CN from the player end of the table (I usually GM). Here's the detailed version of her background and personality: Sisi-Minona Aziri, half-elven bard level 1. Strength 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 8, Charisma 16 (28 points) Align: Chaotic Neutral, Hit Points:7 Fort: +1 Ref: +4 Will: +1 Background: Born a slave in Vrandol, Sisi-Minona was trained for a life as a concubine. At 19 she was sold for 130 gold and set to be shipped off to Bet-Kalamar. Her ship was taken by pirates along the way, and Sisi-Minona found herself bound for the markets in Prompeldia after some time among the pirates. An asault by The Brotherhood of the Broken Chain however won her freedom. Sisi was given clothes, a handful of silver, and dropped off at the nearest port. She had no idea what to do with herself -having never been free- so she sold herself as an indentured servant for a period of five years to a band of traveling entertainers. There she honed her singing and dancing as well as concubine skills until her contract was at an end, and she was let go in Pagalido on the southern border of Tarisato. It was during this time that she also made careful observation of her free companions, in order to learn the basics of surviving on her own. She is now 26 and a cross in appearance between a wood elf and a Svimohz-human (looks sort of like a mix of african and korean with pointy ears). Personality: Sisi-Minona uses the family name of her mother's master, Aziri. She is not fully comfortable with being on her own, and is thus a little unwise to the ways of the world. Sisi views her sexuality as a commodity -it is not a source of joy, pleasure, pain, or remose -merely of gaining advantage. She likewise sees people mostly in terms of what they want from her or what she can get from them. She has no set goals other than surviving and improving her lot. Some would say she is shallow, and this is a product of her background. For Sisi, morality is a non existant concept -everyone's just out to get advantage over everyone else, people are both users and get used. Feat: Extra Bardic Music (Ult. Feats and Song & Silence) Special Abilities: the usual half-elf and bard stuff. Bardic Music 5/day Skills: 32 pts Bluff +7[4], Diplomacy +8[3+2], Perform [Dance] +7[4], Perform [Sing] +6[3], Appraise +3[1], Balance +3[1], Deciper Script +3[1], Gather Info +7[2+2], Hide +3[1], Knowledge [Art/Music] +3[1], Listen +2[2+1], Move Siltenly +3[1], Ritual +3[1], Sense Motive 3[4], Search +3[+1], Spellcraft +3[1], Spot 0[+1], Tumble +3[1], Use Magic Device +4[1] Spells (2/-): Level 0-Filtch (R&RII), Summon Specific Critter [small monkey] (R&RII), Mage Hand, Daze Equipment: Entertainer's outfit (*2), traveler's outfit, Shoulder bag , waterskin, sap, Shortbow, arrows [20], dagger whip, spell component pouch, Mirror, Sewing Needle, Soap (1 lbs), Mule, Riding Saddle, Saddlebags, belt pouch, 8gp, 0sp, 46gp in jewelry. Languages: Svimohz, Brandobian, Low Elven, Kalamaran [b]d20 notes: Filtch lets you have a nearby diminutive object disapear and reapear in your had. Summon critter - monkey lets her get a 'circus monkey' for 1 hour/level. Ritual is a skill in Relics and Rituals that lets a spell caster cooperate with others to boost caster level at the cost of time (and maybe hit points) or burn time/goods instead of spell levels to put metamagic on spells - provided you know the metamagic. dagger whip is from sword and fist - it's a whip that does 1d6 damage.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-23-03, 02:23 AM	If you have to have one, Chaotic Neutral is the best alignment to be. :D From your personality description, sounds like maybe the easiest thing to do is use your sexuality to ahem convince the others to do as you ask. As a bard, it makes it even easier. If you don't want to do that, or the others aren't mature enough to handle it, there are a few I've used to.. . take control. - Air of self confidence. Act like you know exactly what you're doing without being boastful. It helps if you win a few small victories first. - guilt trip/trust. I love this one. Pull them away from bad decisions with "Really, I don't care if you get yourselves ripped to shreds, but I'm not going to be a part of it, and damnit, the last thing I need is your carcasse on my mind -- so here's what we're going to do... More later, but I hope that helps.
Perseus 11-23-03, 02:32 AM	-You could easily play her as a con-artist type. She could come off as a calm, understanding individual who appears non-threatening mediating disputes and handling negotiations. Meanwhile she's really ruthlessly mainpulating the situation to her (and her companions' if you choose) advantage. -Hiding your pc's selfish nature is the best way to cash in on it.
illiterate 11-23-03, 09:46 AM	Your character is definitely qualified to be the "face" of the group. Um.. How is your party's rogue LAWFUL? WTF??
arcady 11-23-03, 11:55 AM	A rogue is a varied concept that covers many angles. Anyway, any more tips on how this character should go about becoming and acting as a leader, given her self centered and somewhat petty nature?
Dinue 11-23-03, 06:52 PM	since the group as a whole has a chaotic theme (except the rogue but thats ok) you can play your bard as the face of the party. using bluff skill and personality to convince NPCs that your group will handle the matter in a respectful way. then take them for all they got, rescue his daughter but demand a ransom, find the lost jewels and keep them, hunt down there oppressors and join them (ie. causing Chaos).
detectevil 11-23-03, 07:11 PM	Well, I don't supose a chaotic character will go on giving orders around. If she suddenly sees herself in the position of leader, she will probably just do what is expected of her, and assume others will do what is expected of then.
illiterate 11-23-03, 10:25 PM	IMHO, chaotic characters don't have much trouble giving orders. they probably don't like GETTING orders, but giving them is fine.
jasper 11-23-03, 11:18 PM	are we talking about party LEADER or party caller? A party leader is the character who is the face man, talker, diplomat, spokesman between the characters and all the npc. A party caller is the Player who decides left right attack talk with npc. Sometimes both post can be filled by the same player. Sometimes not. And never kill off the pc because the party caller made an oops.
arcady 11-24-03, 03:56 AM	Caller? In 22 years I've never seen any reference to a party caller in anything other than the first edition DMG - where I've always soundly ignored the concept. As presented there it was the only player allowed to speak to the DM... It smacked of Gygaxian madness. :) When I say Sisi would be the leader of the group, I mean she would be the leader of the group. No metagaming implied. :cool: That said, as people I am also sort of the 'face' among the group - being the regular DM and the sort of person who tends to always be in charge of the social network. So in this case I have a character who although nearly opposite me in worldview - has to fill the same shoes in her group that I do in mine. As for who calls out actions, I've never seen anyone have any authority to call out the action of any character other their own.
Thorak 11-24-03, 07:29 AM	There's no prerequisites for party leaders, a CN bard sounds like it would make for a fairly amusing campaign. At least she's relatively intelligent, and all CN really means is she listen to nothing but her own desires, so long as they don't infringe on the freedoms of others (Doing so would make it Evil rather than Neutral). As a 'leader', she'd probably lead by setting what she sees as a good example, and making 'suggestions'. Even if her suggestions carry the force of law within the party, she's still leaving it open for others to voice opinions. If you think a CN bard was bad, I ended up playing the party leader at one point with a character who really should have been anything BUT the leader. It was 2nd ed, and my character was a dwarven Vindicator, a kind of berserker fighter/cleric. With an Int of 6. And I played him as a middlin psychotic axe-wielding maniac with ADD. In the first dungeon we were in, the party spent a good 5-10 minutes debating which of three tunnels to take. With no distinguishing features to any of the three, my dwarf (who I take my login name here from, btw) just loudly declares he's tired of this chin-wagging, and walks off down the left-hand tunnel. DM grins and says "You guys following? He'll be out of sight in 5..4..3.." Long story short, everyone stopped arguing about where to go, and every decision was relegated to the int 6 nutbag whose idea of tactical combat was "I run at the biggest critter and whack it with my axe till it's dead". I believe the only time he deviated from that was when confronted by some giant alligators, and in a fit of weirdness that he was prone to, he took off into the surrounding forest. Chopping a tree off with his +3 axe with one swipe, and using his Girdle of Fire Giant Strength, he then proceeded with his usual tactic, but wielding a tree. And every directional choice then onwards was 'left'.
illiterate 11-24-03, 12:13 PM	In one game I played (i've talked about this before) we had a swashbuckler kit rogue(2e) who tended to be the party's face when dealing with NPCs, and my dwarven fighter who tended to organize the party in larger combats. in general, the gm would just ask us all what we were doing, and often a player would point to another and say "I'm following his lead".
MadEdric 11-24-03, 07:59 PM	Be the leader without being a leader. That means you just suggest to people and inspire them. The bard never desires to lead the others, but through confidence, goodsense, flattery, guile.. what have you, to get the others to follow her lead. Being a chaotic sort, don't get upset if they don't follow you, but do remind them when thing go wrong that you had the better idea.
twentythree 11-25-03, 12:37 AM	I actually play in a similar situation. I have a CN bard who is the "Face" for the group. He has huge ranks in diplomacy, bluff, etc. He has gotten the group out of many a jam with his fast-talking skills. he usually knows what the party wants and usually go along with it, but there are times when he takes his post to his own advantage. He knows that the monk and Paladin, being of the "we do good for good" mantra, will never accept a reward unless it is thrust upon them. He also knows that many people are willing to give rewards. So often he will tell the person giving the reward that the whole group would like a certain reasonable sum for the 5 of them, but then divide it 3 ways between the 3 that will accept it. This has made him and his party fairly rich. I also am very good at bartering with shopkeepers, and for a fee I will get a better price for my party on goods and services. It all works out to be very fun for me, even if my friends can be slightly annoyed by it sometimes! :angel:
arcady 11-29-03, 08:32 PM	I put my character's journal on my website: http://arcady0.topcities.com/Kalamar/asPlayer/Sisi.html It's all 'PG-13' as are our games in general. You can find it through the Kalamar link in my signature as well. It's only the first session to date, but you can sort of see the nature of things. With the game being new, 80% of the talk time is me, 15% is Tanakar, and 5% is the other two. Hopefully that will balance out more over time. :)
Bromabaz Silvertwister 12-01-03, 02:38 AM	you want to be the leader? First, beguile the rogue with your fleshy charms. :drool: Then, using your new lapdog, have him start a game of cards with the others. Using his roguish trickery, have him win the others' gear, and then lease it back to them. but only if they follow his (your) orders. this gives you two things: a nice bit of extra gold, and a buffer when the others find out they were cheated. You can even betray the rogue, telling the others that they were duped. You're a bard, it's your job to tell stories! and watching as they butcher the rogue would make an excellent limmerick, especally if the rogue was nobility. The group is now leaderless, and fond of you for telling them that they were being cheated by the rogue. And with all your extra gold, you can hire them on as your own crew. Of course, they won't be making as much, because you were cheated by that evil rogue too. ;)
FriendoftheDork 12-02-03, 01:03 PM	ok, she sounds a bit more like neutral evil to me, according to background description. You don't go around being chatoic if you're used to being a slave/indentured servant. And anyone without a morality is someone without scruples. and an unscruplous (argh spelling!) character is evil. BTW i reccomend that you and the other players agree to be loyal to eachother. A chaotic group where everyone just look out for themselves and never makes compromises leads to player killing and unhappy players. That's why I don't let my players playing evil anymore, it always leads to a bad mood among the players. But if you can pull it off, fine for you.
danielinthewolvesden 12-02-03, 02:04 PM	"Completely amoral" is really more evil than "CN". CN is not "amoral". You know what the Law says, and you follow it because you don't want to get caught- or you don't follow it when you think you won't get caught, and you can gain a lot from it. A CN character still has freinds and companions- in fact they often value their party over "society". Freindofthe Dork makes good points. What do you mean by "leader"? I agree that the concept of "caller" is relegated to the Dark Ages, but there is a difference between: "leader as in diplomatic face" "leader as in who gives the orders" and "leader as in who makes the final decisions, and gives impetus to the group". Your character is set up to be #1, fine. Your background and what is basicly a CE alignment makes you unsuited to be either of the others. True, it sounds like you as a player are doing all the talking and "running the show". But doing so is out of character and belies your background and stated goals- or lack thereof. What you should do (IMHO)is make your character more "Cg" (that's from the older system, where'd we'd call you "chaotic neutral with Good tendencies"), then change your goals a bit- say maybe you decide that you want to emulate the Brotherhood of the Broken Chain and free others who were in your situation- even if the Law dictates otherwise. This then would give you something of a vague goal "free the slaves" (although of course survival would be #1, as you are Chaotic first- Good second- if that). As stated- there is absolutely no reason for you "party" to be a "party"- no reason at all for you folks to hang together. Bad DM call, that, IMHO. Maybe he has something in store for you all? I dunno if the LE rogue fits the party at all. However his background does fit the "vague goal" of "freeing the enslaved", as he understands what it means to be oppressed- even if only by his Father.
arcady 12-02-03, 03:04 PM	Originally posted by FriendoftheDork ok, she sounds a bit more like neutral evil to me, according to background description. You don't go around being chatoic if you're used to being a slave/indentured servant. And anyone without a morality is someone without scruples. and an unscruplous (argh spelling!) character is evil. Evil in alignment is a desire to actively do harm. Sisi has no such desire - she's not mean in anyway, nor does she do anyone harm. She's just completely lacking in a moral compass, and focused on selfish goals of seeing to her needs and seeing interactions with others as a means of manipulation or being manipulated. She's chaotic for that - for her lack of respect for any form of authority or loyalty beyond the practical use she can get from people. Sisi is, by the way, based on an amalgamation of people I knew when I lived amongst women in the 'sex industry' in Asia - who where I lived where under indentured servitude, being bound into contracts to pay debts incured by them or their families. These women were shallow, self-serving, short sighted, and given to seeing everything and everyone in terms of how touse or be used. That said, few of them were ever mean or hurtful and an equally few were ever kind or helpful. They had no respect for authority or loyalty beyond what was forced upon them. Being chaotic does not mean you cannot live under a lawful construct (like enslavement), it just means you don't respect or like it - that you serve it only out of need and practical interest rather than loyalty or preference. A lawful slave is a happy slave -like a dog-, or at least loyal and using the system to argue his/her case. A chaotic slave is a scheming slave, likely to turn on the master if he/she can find advantage in it. I would wager that more slaves are likely to be chaotic than lawful, but then I'm one of the rare modern people to have personally known many of them. That said, she, and the people she was based on, are very different from me - a person who's focus in life is the pursuit of law and constitutional principles (I'm on a path to become a criminal defense attorney) who seeks to actively help those in their darkest hour, and has often been described as kind hearted (in person, I tend to be harsher online due to my 'technical' style of writing) and decidely 'social-welfare left-leaning'. So she's a challenge. I know leadership from my side of the coin, but with her I want to seek it from a very different angle - and perhaps come to understand the personality type better by trying to enact it. The best characters are after all, the ones least like us. The easy ones are the ones like us. :angel:
Voran 12-02-03, 09:03 PM	Heh. You could play her as "Thief" from 8 Bit Theater. I kinda feel any party that allows the Selfish/manipulative yet charming character to be the team leader deserves any flexible changes to division of loot that happens to them :) "Did I forget to tell you about the "Im the leader" tax? Woops"