Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 12-10-03, 06:42 PM	Now don't get The Koga wrong, I'm sure as much as I can think of a reason to defend it, someone will give a reason not to, like all things in life there will be exseptions. But for the vast majority, I will determine class by class why raising undead, yes, even souless ones like zombies and skeletons.. is considerd an evil act.. Paladin. A paladin is a knight of holy virtues. To raise the dead as minions seems foul, dishonorable, and cowardly. It's not so much the science of the act he understands, but the fact that a necromancer has to hide behind his rotting hordes. Showing no respect for the deceased and only worried about protecting his own skin. Because of this disgusted attitude towards the spell, to the paladin, it is tagged [Evil]. Cleric. Holy clerics wield positive energy, evil clerics wield the invert, negative energy. Positive energy bares life, pleasure, and healing. Negative energy bares death, pain, and suffering. To clerics undead is a mockery of everything they pray to and do for the sanctuty of life, it's like a big bold laugh to thier face. This is why to the cleric, it is tagged [Evil.] Wizards. Wizards have magic down to a science, though not nearly as close minded to the idea of necromatic powers, they to know weilding too much negative energy can hinder the body, maybe even the soul. So though they will tamper with it now and again, they know it can easily warp the caster's mind. And because this terrible force should be revered by all, this is why to the wizard, it is tagged [Evil]. Sorcerers. Sorcerers try desperately to hide thier ability to summon the undead if they can at all. (Unless they're evil or neutral.) For they don't want to be socially frowned upon being a diplomatic popular class amongst the commoners. They cannot afford to be hated, so for the sake of thier lovely lives they have nothing to do with the undead, and this is why to the sorcerer, it is tagged [Evil]. Bard. Bard's share a deep simalarity to thier motivation for disliking undead as sorcerers. Though some bards may do it anyway for shock value. Meaning they don't trust in thier abilities and just have to scare or other wise suprize the audience. This is why to the bards, it is tagged [Evil]. Fighters. No understanding of magic does not mean they can't know about something, fighters probably hear many stories about how a horde of zombies attacked a village or how they saw corpses rising from thier graves and it was frightining. Fighters go by the social norm to determine how foul a spell is sense they lack the knowledge to otherwise judge for themselves, this is why to fighters, it is tagged [Evil]. Barbarians. Savages of the wilderness, the barbarian class does not understand, nor wants to understand the undead. His animal like instics warn him something is seriously wrong with them, and from the stench and lack of life energy, the barbarian can tell they don't belong. This is why to the barbarian, it is tagged [Evil]. Druids. To druids, undeadism is un-natural. Someone could give the exscuse that NOTHING is un-natural but on Earth it is. The Earth rejects this abomanation of flesh. Not to meation it has no place on the food chain, the insects are not going to eat walking dead flesh, animals sense the negative energy and run in fear, and it's mere presence dims the life around it, this thing is a mockery of everything the druid strives to protect and uphold. This is why to the druid, it is tagged [Evil]. Rangers. Rangers are not quite as advanced in nature as druids, more so linking to the barbarian in why the hatred flows, but never the less, the ranger sees the effect zombies and skeletons has on his sorroundings, and believes it would be best for everybody if they didn't exsist. This is why to the ranger, it is tagged [Evil]. Monks. Monks are raised in temples most of thier lives, the horrible stories thier sensie tell them about the walking dead and the few things they hear from the outside are what drill into thier head this idea of horrible unholy beasts of burden. And sense they are lawful, they probably will not think otherwise. This is why to monks, it is tagged [Evil]. Psionics. Psions cannot grasp undead, no mentality is reason enough to understand they shouldn't be, but even considering going into the mind of such foul creatures can prove destructive for the foolish psion. And the few that did become immortal through wild rumors and stories spread by fellow psions. And because it's a major risk factor, and because undead are immune to all forms of mental attack, this is why to the psionics, it is tagged [Evil]. Rogues. Rogues pay no mind to the good and evil trail, ussually more concerned about money really. But they hear the stories, and sense undead probably have nothing good on them, they're just poor monsters that at best should be avoided. This is why to rogues, it is tagged [Evil]. I hope you enjoy my little run down of WHY it's considerd evil, The Koga just did this so incase any future topics ask why, (Which I'm sure they're will be..) you can look back to this in the archives and give a good defeitionion of why raising ANY undead should not be condoned. :D
Joe Gold 12-11-03, 12:23 AM	Ooooh, can I try? Umm, here. A (kinda)counter to (some of)your points. Paladin If the paladin is ticked at the necromancer for hiding behind others, then he is also not going to be to happy with the Summon and Planar Binding spells. Showing no respect for the deceased is dependent on sticking an Any Evil alignment restriction on necromancers. Cleric Yeah, that pretty much is the way they paint it. Although I disagree on how you say positive=:D and negative=:sad: . Wizard Um, everything after the second comma is completely unfounded. If a DM wanted to put that in, then fine, but it is not part of any core book. (I say core because I think the BoVD is stalking me.) Sorcerer It's evil because it might affect his skills at bluffing through situations? Bard It's evil because of confidence problems? But they're supposed to have high CHA... Fighter It's evil because this specific fighter avoids wizards and follows a subjective morality? I thought commoners were the ones with torches and pitchforks. Barbarians Being a "savage of the wilderness" this Barbarian is not going to have trouble with undead any more than with wizards, demons, celestials and anything else he hasn't seen before. "They're all evil! Die pretty feather winged thing!" Unnatural doesn't equal evil. Druid Unnaturalness doesn't equal evil, otherwise those arcane casters are going down. Unnatural does mean no place in nature which druids would like less of. (Insects probably would try and munch. Animals wouldn't care and plants wouldn't die unless the undead in question has a special ability to do that. Which very few do.) Ranger Zombies and skeletons have no effect on surrounding areas except some broken twigs. Again, few undead affect the surrounding area. I can only think of Mummy, Banshee, and Corpse Gatherer. Monks Campfire stories? If a sensie told a story of an evil angel, then the monk would consider himself good by killing all celestial that he saw. This is about as far from objective morality that you can get. Psions I can't hurt the rotting corpse with my mind, it must be evil! Zuwha? Rogues Now this is getting silly, Rogues are amoral and consider undead evil because they have no material possesions? Interesting ideas, Koga.
Koga:The ninja trick 12-11-03, 03:50 AM	You to Joe, a couple of them made me laugh cause I started thinking about a dramatized Koga party. XD *Koga: The barbarian*I don't know what that thing is... LET'S KILL IT!!! *Koga: The druid*I agree, it's all rotty and stuff... KILL IT AND FEED IT TO THE HYENAS! *Koga: The cleric*Let's all pray that we kill it fast! *Koga: The monk*Wait! I gotta' think up a cool name for my next attack.. *Koga: The psionic*My mind powers cannot penetrate it. LET'S KILL IT!*Koga: The wizard ACTS like he's reading his spellbook but is actually reading Victoria's secret for nymphs.* Heh, it's all true. Well exsept for the naming of a cool attack and praying one. That almost sounds like work.. XP
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-11-03, 02:55 PM	Originally posted by Koga:The ninja trick Rogues. Rogues pay no mind to the good and evil trail, ussually more concerned about money really. But they hear the stories, and sense undead probably have nothing good on them, they're just poor monsters that at best should be avoided. This is why to rogues, it is tagged [Evil]. I knew it! Commoners are evil! *begin massacre*
Joe Gold 12-11-03, 06:04 PM	What kind of spells would the wizard get out of Victoria's Secret? Sell Soul?
Tehril 12-11-03, 07:47 PM	Actually, it is evil not only because it requires negative energy... but it prevents the creature from being raised or resurrected as long as the body is being animated or in an undead form. Corally to that, you could stipulate that the soul is not at rest as long as the body is animated... an evil act. Even worse, you could rule that the soul of the creature is bound to the body... unable to rest in any fashion. With intelligent undead, this is most certainly true.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-11-03, 09:28 PM	Originally posted by Tehril Actually, it is evil not only because it requires negative energy... but it prevents the creature from being raised or resurrected as long as the body is being animated or in an undead form. Corally to that, you could stipulate that the soul is not at rest as long as the body is animated... an evil act. Even worse, you could rule that the soul of the creature is bound to the body... unable to rest in any fashion. With intelligent undead, this is most certainly true. Nope. Negative enrgy and its use are as neutral as fire and water. The otherthings are house rules.
the Horc 12-11-03, 09:37 PM	The thing about negative energy is that although it is neutral, the act of releasing it onto the world is a destructive act. It's kinda like anti-matter. While the stuff ain't morally bound, someone purposely releasing the stuff uncontained is an evil act, largely because you're potentially subjecting a large group of people to gamma radiantion exposure, provided they actually survive the multi-megaton blast the stuff would release. In summation: negative energy = neutral. Releasing it in a place that uses positive energy to survive: evil. (It'd be funny if there would be a parallel universe where negative energy is the building blocks of matter, and it only has its destructive property from the perspective of creatures that survive on positive energy. As such, the parallel universe would probably consider their negative energy positive energy and their undead survive on our "positive" energy, and releasing our "positive" energy onto their world would be an evil act)
Joe Gold 12-11-03, 09:39 PM	Originally posted by Tehril Actually, it is evil not only because it requires negative energy... but it prevents the creature from being raised or resurrected as long as the body is being animated or in an undead form. Corally to that, you could stipulate that the soul is not at rest as long as the body is animated... an evil act. Even worse, you could rule that the soul of the creature is bound to the body... unable to rest in any fashion. With intelligent undead, this is most certainly true. Oh, an end to the humor? So all death effects are evil, but they left off that descriptor in the spells? Raise dead can not bring back a person killed by a death effect. Resurrection and True Resurrection can bring back an undead. What stops it from working is the soul near always saying no. Intelligent undead like being the way they are, otherwise they would have killed themselves a long time ago
Dungeon_Master 12-14-03, 12:10 AM	Rogues. Rogues pay no mind to the good and evil trail, ussually more concerned about money really. But they hear the stories, and sense undead probably have nothing good on them, they're just poor monsters that at best should be avoided. This is why to rogues, it is tagged [Evil]. "DA**! MY BACKSTAB FAILED!" "You stick your hand into his pocket...... And pull out a lump of bloody human flesh." "OH %^&%^!" My rouge is just scared of them for normal reasons. ("AH! IT'S UNDEAD!!!!!! KILL IT!!!!!! AH! IT'S ALREADY DEAD!!!!!!!")
Rotipher 12-14-03, 01:30 PM	Here's another argument for the druid, and perhaps the other "nature boys" too: Nature is a testing ground for all living things, weeding out the flawed so that the fit can supercede them. This isn't a moral judgement against the flawed; it's just a mechanism for keeping each species strong and healthy. If a creature dies, then it most likely had a flaw that warranted elimination, thus opening the way for unflawed members of its kind to proliferate and thrive.* [* - This is about as close to Darwin's theory of natural selection as a medieval-era nature worshipper who doesn't know higher Malthus-style math is likely to get.] This mechanism breaks down if flawed creatures that die are given a new "pseudo-life" in undeath. Even if the undead can't reproduce biologically, hence cannot inflict their flaws on future generations, they endanger those un-flawed survivors that should rightly be taking their place. They occupy space that living creatures ought to inherit from those nature has eliminated; they may prey upon the living, often killing unflawed creatures that nature would *not* have weeded out. Undead are flawed beings that have defied nature's rightful culling, and so belong dead so they can't further upset the natural processes that keep all creatures fit.
Winsome 12-18-03, 10:42 AM	Don't the undead generally hate the living and try to kill them wherever possible? Given that it's the living who make the definitions of Good and Evil then logically the undead (life haters) would be classed as evil. Spells from Victoria's Secret - Summon spells, oh yes, Summon spells.
Bacon and Eggs 12-18-03, 10:50 AM	I was watching "Jack Frost" this weekend. You know, family film. Dead dad comes back to help out his son who is having issues getting a goal in hockey. For all intensive purposes, the guy was a ghost. Somewhat undead. He didn't seem all that [evil] to me. Then there was that Patrick Swayze guy. ... and Casper. If Rogues avoid Brussle Sprouts like they do undead, does that make Brussle Sprouts [evil]?
Winsome 12-18-03, 10:53 AM	Brussel Sprouts? Evil through and through. Proper food shouldn't be green, or immoblie.
Tenzhi 12-18-03, 10:58 AM	Originally posted by Tehril but it prevents the creature from being raised or resurrected as long as the body is being animated or in an undead form. Animated dead or undead created by a create undead spell do not prevent a creature from being raised or resurrected. A creature who has been turned into an undead creature may not be raised or ressurected - however, a corpse is an object and not a creature.
Dungeon_Master 12-18-03, 12:04 PM	Originally posted by Winsome Spells from Victoria's Secret - Summon spells, oh yes, Summon spells. Darn. I don't know if the WizOs would let me comment on this since we aren't on the "mature" boards (where this topic should have been in the first place).
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-18-03, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by Winsome Don't the undead generally hate the living and try to kill them wherever possible? Given that it's the living who make the definitions of Good and Evil then logically the undead (life haters) would be classed as evil. Not particulalry, most undead are mindlessly seeking vengence in some way, shape or form. Other require life force or blood for food. (like mosquitoes), and other don't have to do anything in particular, just hang of and chill.
Aengrilor 12-20-03, 12:30 AM	I wish I could remember who said this because I think it's the best reason I've ever heard for why some uses of negative energy are tagged as evil and some aren't. IIRC it went something like this: Negative energy, used to destroy or cause damage is not tagged evil because that is it's normal function. Negative energy used to create "life" or mobilize the dead is tagged evil because it's an abomination. The gift of life by the force that causes death - against the laws of nature and all that. It's just occured to me that some people have a way with words, and other people... oh, not have a way, I guess. ***sigh***
Joe Gold 12-20-03, 01:54 AM	When gods can and do make undead, how are they unnatural abominations? Sure they don't happen too much on their own, but what happens when the creators of nature make them?
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-20-03, 02:38 AM	Animate object + Permenancy Dance, you filthy pile of bones! The trouble with that explaination is that every other way of creating abominations (golem creation, animate object, collosi) aren't evil.
Aengrilor 12-20-03, 04:33 AM	Animate object + Permenancy Dance, you filthy pile of bones! The trouble with that explaination is that every other way of creating abominations (golem creation, animate object, collosi) aren't evil. ================================ Exactly, those other ways of granting life or a semblance of life aren't evil, because you aren't using the the forces of death to grant life. I'm gonna do a search and try to find that thread - I really am doing it no justice here.
Tenzhi 12-20-03, 04:38 AM	It must be fairly natural for Negative Energy to create a semblance of life as it occurs naturally on the Negative Energy plane. And incidentally, Positive Energy causes death on the Positive Energy plane. Both forms of energy are neutral forces that can be used to create or destroy.