Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 02:33 PM	This is basically a thread for dueling strategies. Please read the rules before you start posting. My idea here is to demonstrate how each of the DnD classes have a kind of collective equality, based on their capacity to exploit eachother's weaknesses. Here's how it works. First, someone posts a character with a list of abilities and a strategy. Then someone else goes with a character of a different class and a means of beating that strategy. Rules: 1. Spells and class abilities ONLY. With the exception of people who use magically enhanced weapons and armor (and no more), and people who will dutifully manufacture their own scrolls and wands, there will be no cheap use of magic items to gain an advantage that wouldn't exist otherwise. Don't just say "I put on a ring of fire immunity" to completely nullify the wizard. 2. Be detailed. Please don't be open-ended about your counter-strategy and assume everyone will get it. 3. No acronyms. Not everyone (i.e. me) understands those, and it's not like it takes that long to write them out. Similarly, If you're not using something (A class, an ability, etc.) that you figure is widely known, explain a little about it. 4. No Pun-Puns. Creatures that are COed beyond recognition are not cheating, exactly, but you can hardly call them fair. 5. All participants are lvl 20. No more, no less. No wimpyness and no Epic crap permitted. All characters have equal wealth by level. 6. You don't have to kill everyone. Just nuetralize the poster above you, by death, unconciousness, Imprisonment, whatever. 7. You can assume whatever terrain you like. I'll start. A lot of people brought this up in the "Best Spellcaster" thread, so I think I'll just borrow it... Lvl 20 Human Druid using Creeping Cold, extend spell, and persistent spell to utterly obliterate any enemies within his line of sight. Energy substitution is used to convert the spell to sonic damage as needed. He will use wildshape against anyone who can get within melee range.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 03:02 PM	Favoured soul/contemplative. Takes the magic and travel domains and the feats stand still, quicken spell and combat reflexes. Maybe rombilars gambit as well. Quickened dimenstion door beside you then casts antimagic field. Starts slogging away, and you can't escape. Uses a longspear and armour spikes. Edit: forgot to add in rapid metamagic and add mythral to the armour.
Comus 02-27-07, 03:05 PM	OBJECTION! All examples should have standard wealth by level - otherwise it overvalues spells. Limiting to items that aren't one-shot, though, is reasonable.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 03:22 PM	I'm not sure how to top the Favored Soul/contemplative combo, but the rules have been edited. Edit: Check that. A truenamer with maxed out ranks in Truespeak, skill focus: truespeak, and a greater amulet of the silver tongue will contiually use inverted Greater Words of Nurturing (dealing 10d6 pts. dmg. every turn with no saving throw), being careful to stay out of melee range, until the FS/C is dead. With a bunch of tweaking feats added in, Empowered Greater Word of Nurturing will deal 15d6.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 04:21 PM	If I recall, truenaming will not work in an antimagic field, and since I'm using dimension door to close then immediately doing anti magic field after, you can't avoid ending up in the melee range. ;) Edit: Got part of it wrong anyway. I need to use sovereign speaker, not contemplative.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 04:48 PM	Ah, you're right. I was thinking of silence spells. Hmm... Okay, well, unless he moves out the antimagic field, his magical powers will be nullified, and he'll be vulnerable to the attacks of any fighter or barbarian with a reach weapon. If he DOES move out of the antimagic field, then the fighter or barbarian can simply follow and either slow or disrupt his spellcasting with the constant threat of attacks of opportunity. He'd either have to try to fight a melee battle he isn't likely to win, or run. Either way, a completely standard fighter or barbarian, rolled straight out of the DM guide's NPC generator, would win.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 04:56 PM	Ah, you're right. I was thinking of silence spells. Hmm... Okay, well, unless he moves out the antimagic field, his magical powers will be nullified, and he'll be vulnerable to the attacks of any fighter or barbarian with a reach weapon. If he DOES move out of the antimagic field, then the fighter or barbarian can simply follow and either slow or disrupt his spellcasting with the constant threat of attacks of opportunity. He'd either have to try to fight a melee battle he isn't likely to win, or run. Either way, a completely standard fighter or barbarian, rolled straight out of the DM guide's NPC generator, would win. I use the same character, quickened dim door away from melee and spam spells against the poor hapless melee fighter. :D Probably gates and miracles to start. Gate in a balor, then use miracle to fake death effect or whatever spells seem good.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 05:08 PM	Hmmmm... I've got one, but let's someone besides me give this a try.
snakeman830 02-27-07, 05:22 PM	A fighter with the full Weapon focus/Weapon specilization tree for spiked chain plus Exotic Weapon proficiency (Spiked Chain), Improved Critical (Spiked Chain) Combat expertise, Improved disarm, and improved trip. A masterwork spiked chain, either admentium or mithril full-plate, masterwork longbow (plenty of ammo) and an amulet of antimagic field are possessions. Due to the amulet of antimagic field, no kind of magic will function within 10 feet of him. Thus, all spellcasting against him is nullified. Any summoned creature (short of a gate spell) will be returned to it's home plane until he moves out of the area. If Gate is used to summon help, the fighter kills it then moves on to the vulnerable wizards/scorcerer. Balors are supirior to most things you can summon with gate when magic is nullified, but they may be inferior to the fighter when no magic operates (check out how many of a Balor's abilities are superantural or spell-like). Fighter would disarm those that try melee and trip them too. Against a ranged attacker, he would use his own longbow. Remember that those arrows become non-magical as soon as they enter the anti-magic field as well as any magical items/weapons. Yes, I have determined that almost everything at 20th level relies heavily on magic. The only well-known exception is the Tarrasque. Not even dragons are unaffected as their breath weapons are supernatural. Granted, I know this breaks one of the rules (no magic items but weapons), but seeing as how he had nothing else magical...
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 05:36 PM	I was thinking that a Duskblade can use the dimension door spell also and follow him wherever he goes, and still clobber him with any given weapon, but your way works too. Next guy, figure out how to beat a fighter armed with antimagic!
Dontan 02-27-07, 05:38 PM	<.< >.> An evil Dungeon Master. Rocks fall. Everyone dies. (Someone had to ruin this thread... Please don't hurt me. In fact, ignore this...)
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 05:42 PM	I was thinking that a Duskblade can use the dimension door spell also and follow him wherever he goes, and still clobber him with any given weapon, but your way works too. Next guy, figure out how to beat a fighter armed with antimagic! Same favoured soul build listed above, quicken dimension doors, then dimensional anchors the duskblade. :P Hits him next few rounds with save or dies, gates, etc, while staying out of reach. Against the AMF fighter, tumble away, dimension door away, then gate in two pit fiends and a dragon. Get him grappled down and then have the three gang beat him. This requires that I change the build by cross classing the tumble skill. :D And be honest here. The fighter build listed with no magic has a very tough time against pit fiends anyway.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 05:49 PM	Duskblade casts dispel magic on himself and keeps chasing you. No dice, bub.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 05:54 PM	But he can't do it spontaneously or as often as the favoured soul. Also, he would have to use greater dispel magic, which he has comparatively few of. :P So in other words, I add rinse and repeat to the afforementioned strategy. Even then, he would have to roll high with the greater dispel, since I'm also a full caster. :D Not sure about this, but I also think that the duskblade is incapable of using quickened dimension door, and is incapable of using quickened greater dispel magic. I thought he was capped at level 7 spells?
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 06:04 PM	Poppycock. Quickened NORMAL dispel magic would work just fine (and is plausible), followed by standard action dimensional warping into melee range. Furthermore, let's say my Duskblade has the Run feat, is wearing light armor, is medium-sized, and casts haste on himself before the fight starts. Dimensional Anchor doesn't have that big a range. 300 ft. at lvl 20, I think. The duskblade will be able to charge over that distance and attack anyway, if the FS doesn't choose to take full advantage of Dimension Door's distance capabilities. Again, the FS is reduced to summoning monsters and running away, or trying to cast at melee range. Duskblade either kills or chooses not to pursue, kills the monsters, and wins by default. Also, your strategy depends entirely on you having somewhere to run. What you're doing probably wouldn't work in caverns or dungeons.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 06:12 PM	Poppycock. Quickened NORMAL dispel magic would work just fine, followed by dimensional warping into melee range. DC to dispel the effect of a spell cast by a level 19 caster is 30. A dispel magic caps at a plus 10, so yeah, I suppose it does work, but only at a natural twenty. Furthermore, let's say my Duskblade has the Run feat, is wearing light armor, is medium-sized, and casts haste on himself before the fight starts. Dimensional Anchor doesn't have that big a range. 300 ft. at lvl 20, I think. The duskblade will be able to charge over that distance and attack anyway, if the FS doesn't choose to take full advantage of Dimension Door's distance capabilities. This is very much true. You would get another hit in, and I would be forced from then on to dimension door every round. Again, the FS is reduced to summoning monsters and running away, or trying to cast at melee range. Duskblade either kills or chooses not to pursue, kills the monsters, and wins by default. And casting long ranged spells. :P Those add up quickly as well. Sadly, for that I would be forced to cast miracle and blade barrier. Or flying over head and using medium ranged spells, which is also weaker. Also, your strategy depends entirely on you having somewhere to run. What you're doing probably wouldn't work in caverns or dungeons. Say this one first. :D This is the part that beats me, since you get to pick terrain. :P
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 06:19 PM	Hmmm... Okay, let's just go with the terrain thing as a clincher. Assuming you DON'T have miles of open grassland or whatever to fly to, you lose. A cookie to anybody who can think of a better way to beat that build. Otherwise, let's proceed. How do you beat a lvl 20 Duskblade who's focused his abilities on caster elimination and mobility? He's armed with a greatsword and +5 studded leather. He'll attack anyone he can get into melee range, dispelling protections first and then striking with his spell-enhanced melee attacks.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 06:39 PM	Similar build as the one above, but with a spiked chain. :P uses the same dimensional anchor and dimension door, but this time adds quickened rightious might and does it to 15 feet away from you. If you charge, I get an attack of opportunity, and can force you to stand still. If you try to move away, I can do the same. I full round attack every round on my turn causing some degree of damage, healing myself as a quickened spell whenever necessary. A quickened divine might would be an excellent second/third round buff spell. This time, a cleric is a little better than a favoured soul, I think, so I would use that. Also uses divine spell power so his spells are that much harder to dispel. Might add in improved trip. Anyway, all this combined together makes him a very tough person to actually hit. Even if you take tumble, hitting me causes me to hit you as well, so we are even in that regard. The only advantage that you duskblade would have is power attack, along with spells on his weapons. The extra damage from all of that would be knocked off by quickened cures. All in all, I can alter the build I had made to be a slightly favoured to win character in the caves, but he is by no means a guaranteed winner. For that I would need time to cast buffs ahead of time.
Novabomb 02-27-07, 07:11 PM	Just something simple cause i havent seen it mentioned yet. Wiz 20, I gate in a titan, the titan gates in another titan...etc all the titans pwn whatever there is to be deestroyed.
risner 02-27-07, 07:56 PM	Energy substitution is used to convert the spell to sonic damage as needed. Bzzt, wrong answer. Sonic is not a valid choice for Energy Substitution. My entry: Spirit Shaman 5, Beastmaster 1, Lion of Talisid 10, Master of Many Forms 2, Ruathar 1, Comtemplative (Luck domain) Wilding Clasp with +5 Druid Wild Shape item (Wild Shape Amulet) for 13th level Druid Wild Shape and saves +5 plus a few other items rolling in up to my 760,000 gp value. Feats: Greenbound Summoning (Roc's immune to most spells), Aberrant Wild Shape (take Will o Wisp with SpC Enhanced Wild Shape spell for immunity to all SR spells except MM and Maze), Oaken Resilience (immunity to all mind effecting spells.) Cast all 9th level spells as Elemental Monoliths and all 8th level spells as S.N.A. Greenbound Roc's and use 7th level Spell Turning to reflect "SR No" Spells back to them. You also have a 14th level Animal Companion to be happy with.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 08:46 PM	Uhh, Risner? Is that your counter to the Titan-gating wizard? Because I don't see exactly how this works... (Probably because I have no idea what an elemental monolith spell is or what SNA stands for or what it means to be greenbound).
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 08:51 PM	You can take one level of Archmage to get the effects of Energy Subsitution (Sonic) by sacrificing one 8th level spell slot to let you change your energy spell damage to any other energy type, including sonic. This is done on the fly, with no casting time increase.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-27-07, 08:59 PM	Okay, just to keep things moving, I'm going to assume Risner's guy was supposed to be the foil to the wizard. Here's my counter. A binder, lvl 20, will bind Agares, Eligor, Tenebrous, and Ronove before the fight. Note that this doesn't really work unless he wins the initiative count and can get within 30 ft. So he's wearing light armor and has Improved Initiative. On his first turn, he'll move forward and use Agares' power to summon a Huge Earth Elemental. The Elemental will immediately move to grapple the druid, pin him, and prevent him from speaking. On his second turn, he will either join the grapple or just hit the pinned druid, using Ronove's monk-like unarmed attack damage and alternating Eligor's and Tenebrous' attack powers to give him a boost as he gradually slugs the druid into oblivion. The elemental, in the meantime, will continue to pin and prevent verbal casting.
Novabomb 02-27-07, 10:38 PM	Since your character is not capable of greater celerity...(First non-caster build...aka easily defeatable) Psiwar7/PsiWeaponMaster7/IaijustuMaster5/Marshal1 Equipment, item of gloves of dex +6, cloak of cha +6, shieth, +5 katana of stuff, +6 belt of str (eh why not) +30 item of skill (Iaijustsu focus) EDIT: Forgot to mention, threat range is 15-20, and IF focus does multiply. And with PWM it will multipy for 3x, on average a crit will be struck once.</edit> This character alwasy has motivate charisma on and will have stats in this order cha,dex,str,doesnt matter. The IM adds charisma to initiatiative and has improved init....i minimum of + 11 to init before stats. Char uses psionic lions charge to make a full attack at the end of a charge. If this char catches someone flatfooted each attack does a minimum of 6d8 + 6*cha +1.5 str + 2x powerattack(why not) With motivate charisma, cha modifier becomes 1.5 times normal char Effect-This char will win initiative, and will kill in the first round.
Jo_Pistachio 02-27-07, 10:57 PM	Why are people that can't make items using items? Don't these people use the rules? Edit: To kill the above, I use a wizard with a contingency that goes off when I'm about to be attacked. He might go first, but then I dim door away from him. I don't even need to go far. Then I toss in an imprisonment in my turn, and possibly quicken something else. This, BTW is a wizard 15 fatespinner 5. DC for this turns to insane, and he must re-roll success.
FeceMan 02-28-07, 01:38 AM	Level 20 wizard casts gate again and again and again. Game over, man. Game over. Oh, and he turns himself into a dragon via polymorph any object.
risner 02-28-07, 01:54 AM	Uhh, Risner? Is that your counter to the Titan-gating wizard? Because I don't see exactly how this works... (Probably because I have no idea what an elemental monolith spell is or what SNA stands for or what it means to be greenbound). I apologize for my shorthand, I violated the rules without intending. S.N.A. = Summon Nature's Ally. Greenbound = gives plant immunities (no mind effecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunning and critical hits) to summoned Roc's. Oaken = gives plant immunities to the druid. Elemental Monoliths would have 400 to 500 hps and higher grapple checks than a Titan (Gargantuan Earth Elementals.) Also the Druid would have Ring of Freedom of Movement in his Wild Clasp item so grapple checks are no issue.
snakeman830 02-28-07, 03:31 PM	Same favoured soul build listed above, quicken dimension doors, then dimensional anchors the duskblade. :P Hits him next few rounds with save or dies, gates, etc, while staying out of reach. Against the AMF fighter, tumble away, dimension door away, then gate in two pit fiends and a dragon. Get him grappled down and then have the three gang beat him. This requires that I change the build by cross classing the tumble skill. :D And be honest here. The fighter build listed with no magic has a very tough time against pit fiends anyway. Two problems with this: 1. You can't summon dragons with Gate, only outsiders. 2. A pit fiend in an antimagic field SUCKS. Their poison is unlikely to take effect due to the Fighter's high fortitude save and all of their spell-like abilities are neutralized by the AMF. If they take to the air, he takes his sweet old time shooting them down, since they can't hit him. If they stay on the ground, he ignores them unless they come into range. Then he kills them. A 20th level fighter is more than capable of this. In the meantime, your only real defense is to keep running away, causing me to win by default.
risner 02-28-07, 05:09 PM	If they take to the air, he takes his sweet old time shooting them down. Your big weakness here is any sane caster would fly and drop conjuration creation bombs on you (which will get past antimagic field) like a Druid's Bombardment (reflex save for 10d8 or take 20d8 and be buried under 5 foot of conjured rock.)
snakeman830 02-28-07, 05:18 PM	Your big weakness here is any sane caster would fly and drop conjuration creation bombs on you (which will get past antimagic field) like a Druid's Bombardment (reflex save for 10d8 or take 20d8 and be buried under 5 foot of conjured rock.) Remember that quote was referring to Pit Fiends which do not have any spells like that. However, you are only partially right. The majority of conjuration effects are dispelled/surpressed by the AMF Acid splash, Melf's Acid arrow, etc. If the spell has a duration of instantaneous and summons mundane objects (though not in the area of the AMF), then it works. For instance, if said rocks have a duration attached, they wink out of existance when they enter the AMF (I don't have a book with that spell in it, so I wouldn't know). If they don't, then they use normal falling rules. However, if the spell has a cylinder area (which I suspect that one does), it's no go.
Novabomb 02-28-07, 06:55 PM	Level 20 wizard casts gate again and again and again. Game over, man. Game over. Oh, and he turns himself into a dragon via polymorph any object. Im ignoring this guy for lack of creativity and explanation. Why are people that can't make items using items? Don't these people use the rules? Edit: To kill the above, I use a wizard with a contingency that goes off when I'm about to be attacked. He might go first, but then I dim door away from him. I don't even need to go far. Then I toss in an imprisonment in my turn, and possibly quicken something else. This, BTW is a wizard 15 fatespinner 5. DC for this turns to insane, and he must re-roll success. Item Wise, nothing i used was degenerate, they were all just start or skill boosters, common gear, the build didnt need them. Against your fate spinner i send my Wiz3/MasterAbjurer5/Abjurant Champian5/IotSV7. All of your spells are my b1tch. This character is a counterspell master. Due to abjurant champian all abjurations he casts are quickened. He only dispells stuff he cares about, buffs he will let you do cause he can just use kalidoscopic doom, and reciprical gyre on you. His veils will block any directly offensive spells, so he will let you cast those. The moment you try to pull something like gate, he will reaving dispell your ass, which will steal your spell. His dispell check is obserdly high.
ElIsRa 02-28-07, 07:26 PM	First off, I propose that anyone who breaks the rules of this competition be ignored. To kill the above, I use a wizard with a contingency that goes off when I'm about to be attacked. He might go first, but then I dim door away from him. I don't even need to go far. Then I toss in an imprisonment in my turn, and possibly quicken something else. This, BTW is a wizard 15 fatespinner 5. DC for this turns to insane, and he must re-roll success. Spell Thief with Iron Will. Absorb the imprisonment and cast it back at you on your turn. My turn, ready action. Use dispel magic (from a wand) to counter any conjuration, illusion or abjuration spells you cast.
Prator_the_Legendary 02-28-07, 09:08 PM	My binder returns! This time, he's packing Savnok (who allows him to summon and wear +4 Heavy Fortification Full Plate), Eligor (Who gives him combat bonuses and elementally charged attacks,) Eurynome (who will allow him to wield a +3 large anarchic warhammer), and Karsus (who gives him a dispelling touch attack). Basically, he'll summon the hammer and armor onto himself, and then just run up and hammer the Spellthief to death with elementally charged attacks. Karsus' touch will be used to nullify any magic he might cast. Since everything the binder does is considered a supernatural ability, the spellthief can neither steal nor dispel his powers. Or, if that's too complicated, I could just use a straight monk to whack you.
Novabomb 02-28-07, 10:35 PM	Is there a reason my builds are getting ignored? What is illegal about them? I have submitted 3 builds, and only one of them was dealt with. I resubmit my wiz3/master abjurer5/abjurant champian 5/IotSV7 see 3 posts up for tactics.
ElIsRa 03-01-07, 12:49 AM	Is there a reason my builds are getting ignored? What is illegal about them? I have submitted 3 builds, and only one of them was dealt with. I resubmit my wiz3/master abjurer5/abjurant champian 5/IotSV7 see 3 posts up for tactics. No offence Nova, I didn't see you there when I posted. Half-Ogre Fighter 10/Divine Crusader 9 (to Hextor with Domain of Domination) with Mage Slayer, Blind-Fight, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Weapon Focus( Flail ), Weapon Specialization( Flail ) [From Divine Crusader lvl5], Exotic Weapon( Spiked Chain ), Weapon Focus( Spiked Chain ), Improved Trip, Greater Weapon Focus( Spiked Chain ), Monkey Grip, Improved Grapple, Iron Will. He wields a Huge Chain of Obeisance and is wearing +2 Adementite Armor of Spell Resistence 19. I stand well out side your Wards and beat you with the chain until they are down, then grapple you and use the Dominate Monster ability of the Chain until you submit. Alternitively, if you are foolish enough to not have a vial that prevents mind effects, I cast Total Domination on you. Then take you to a nice safe place and cast Monsterous Thrall on you. If you try to flee, I use my Attack of Op. to trip you. Either way, I reserve the right to use you agenst the next challenge. ^_^jk
Prator_the_Legendary 03-01-07, 03:36 PM	Hmm... I got this one covered. Ahhh, binders, is there anything they can't kill? Binder 20, feats, stats, and equipment don't really matter. Bound Vestiges: Savnok, Orthos, Amon, and Focalor. First, Savnok's +4 Heavy Fortification Full Plate is called up, and Orthos' permanent displacement effect will be turned on. Ideally this will be before the fight starts. Then, each round, the binder will nuke you with Orthos' hurrican breath attack (20d6 force damage, make reflex save or be blown backwards 1d4*10 ft. 60 ft. range), Focalor's lightning strike (8d6 electricity damage, reflex half, 200 ft. range), or Amon's Line of Fire (20d6 fire damage, reflex half, 50 ft. range), before/after taking a move action to stay out of your melee range. During the two empty turns where he recharges, he will either make a double move or use total defense. Basically, he's staying out of your reach, nuking you, and enchanting himself to minimize the odds of you hurting him.
snakeman830 03-01-07, 03:40 PM	Got to love those 20th level binders...
Prator_the_Legendary 03-01-07, 03:44 PM	I know! When I first read about this class, I thought, "Dude, didn't anyone realize how overpowered these guys are at high levels? Infinite nuking spells! Perfect fighter impersonation! Rogue stabbiness! All sorts of supernatural tricks!" But I don't complain about the system. I just take advantage of it wherever possible.
ElIsRa 03-01-07, 04:23 PM	Hmm... I got this one covered. Ahhh, binders, is there anything they can't kill? Binder 20, feats, stats, and equipment don't really matter. Bound Vestiges: Savnok, Orthos, Amon, and Focalor. First, Savnok's +4 Heavy Fortification Full Plate is called up, and Orthos' permanent displacement effect will be turned on. Ideally this will be before the fight starts. Then, each round, the binder will nuke you with Orthos' hurrican breath attack (20d6 force damage, make reflex save or be blown backwards 1d4*10 ft. 60 ft. range), Focalor's lightning strike (8d6 electricity damage, reflex half, 200 ft. range), or Amon's Line of Fire (20d6 fire damage, reflex half, 50 ft. range), before/after taking a move action to stay out of your melee range. During the two empty turns where he recharges, he will either make a double move or use total defense. Basically, he's staying out of your reach, nuking you, and enchanting himself to minimize the odds of you hurting him. Ok, simple mod to the above half-ogre. Change Adamantine to Mithral. Drop Blind-fight and Pierce Magical Concealment and replace with Combat Reflexes and Lighting Reflexes. I hold my action to make a full charge at you when you get close enough to effect me with one of your abilities then trip you. When you try to get up I use my attack of op to trip you again. On my next turn I close the distance and grapple you, using my Chain's Dominate Monster ability until you submit. Edit: Also, if you do manage to knock me back with your hurrican breath attack, I'll simply run at you to make up the distence and wait for you to provoke an attack of op, to trip you.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-01-07, 05:00 PM	Hmmm... Not bad, but that's not a guaranteed victory. There's nothing in the rules that says I can't use my supernatural powers from a prone or grappled position. Also, thanks to displacement, you'd still have to beat my armor class AND my 50% miss chance. Also, lvl 20 binders are immune to all mind-influencing effects, so I can't be dominated. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't chains do bludgeoning damage? I didn't mention this before (because I didn't know it was important), but Savnok's armor has damage reduction that can "only be overcome by magical piercing weapons" (6/piercing). But, just for the sake of playing it your way... I'll use the same guy too. I'll keep Orthos and the other vestiges on, but switch Focalor to Tenebrous. Tenebrous has the ability to cast Deeper Darkness as a 20th level wizard, see through said deeper darkness, and also use Flicker (Shadowcaster mystery, 3 times a day, 20 rounds per use), which allows me to warp to any point up to 100 ft. away once every round as an immediate action (at any time during the round), and gives me another 50% miss chance if I use this ability in response to an attack. I'll use the same strategy, but alternate using Orthos' and Amon's blasts with warping away and surrounding myself with deeper darkness. You want to hurt me, you'll have to work hard for it. 50% for displacement, 50% for Flickering, and 50% for total Darkness-related concealment. You roll against each one seperately, I think.
ElIsRa 03-01-07, 08:44 PM	Hmmm... Not bad, but that's not a guaranteed victory. There's nothing in the rules that says I can't use my supernatural powers from a prone or grappled position. Also, thanks to displacement, you'd still have to beat my armor class AND my 50% miss chance. Also, lvl 20 binders are immune to all mind-influencing effects, so I can't be dominated. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't chains do bludgeoning damage? I didn't mention this before (because I didn't know it was important), but Savnok's armor has damage reduction that can "only be overcome by magical piercing weapons" (6/piercing). But, just for the sake of playing it your way... I'll use the same guy too. I'll keep Orthos and the other vestiges on, but switch Focalor to Tenebrous. Tenebrous has the ability to cast Deeper Darkness as a 20th level wizard, see through said deeper darkness, and also use Flicker (Shadowcaster mystery, 3 times a day, 20 rounds per use), which allows me to warp to any point up to 100 ft. away once every round as an immediate action (at any time during the round), and gives me another 50% miss chance if I use this ability in response to an attack. I'll use the same strategy, but alternate using Orthos' and Amon's blasts with warping away and surrounding myself with deeper darkness. You want to hurt me, you'll have to work hard for it. 50% for displacement, 50% for Flickering, and 50% for total Darkness-related concealment. You roll against each one seperately, I think. Darn, I forgot about the displacement.... And I guess Domination isn't the most optimal Domain to have if you're immune to mind effects. Spiked Chain's are 2d4 piercing damage with +2 size categories give it a 3d6 damage, so the damage reduction is a null factor. Also, on a side note, I wasn't trying to prevent you from using your powers, I was trying to keep you close enough that I could move in for the grapple. Although I'm quite sure that I could make some very minor tweaks to my original model and defeat you, I'll stand down and let someone else a try. But be certain that if someone doesn't step up soon, I will put an end to your Binder non-sense. ^_^
Aegeu 03-01-07, 09:06 PM	Counter for the AMF Fighter: Any Orb spell. Instantaneous conjurations are not blcoked by AMFs.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-01-07, 09:10 PM	Yes, that would work... incidentally, that's one of the most common complaints raised about that spell. Looking at a more modern target, who's got something to take down the binder who can blast you from afar and Flicker away if you try to hit back with anything?
FrostWolf 03-02-07, 12:57 PM	Articifer 5, Effigy Master5, and Techsmith 10. (i think that works. Don't have all my books on me at the moment) Basicly the idea is to blanket the field with enough things that you have to deal with SOMETHING where ever you go. Hopefully you'll scratch yourself on a jagged bit of metal and die of infection within a month. Best thing I can think of so far. By things, I mean constructs, homuculi, effiegys, heck, even animated caltrops.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-02-07, 02:42 PM	Levels are nice, strategies are nice, but could you maybe name a spell or something?
Novabomb 03-02-07, 04:53 PM	Wiz 20. Greater celerity-extended maximized time stop (with meta magic rods that he crafted) fly, prismatic sphere, just above the first sphere make another one. wait for the time stop to end. Reverse gravity, when the binder leaves the second sphere dismiss reverse gravity. If binder can survive 6 trips through a prismatic sphere, good for him.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-02-07, 05:23 PM	Maximized time stop... Can you actually do that? And if so, can you make items for it without being Epic? And can I use flicker to bypass the prismatic sphere? Hmmm... I don't know enough about the rules to judge that one. I'll just assume it works, okay?
Novabomb 03-03-07, 12:18 PM	Maximized time stop... Can you actually do that? And if so, can you make items for it without being Epic? And can I use flicker to bypass the prismatic sphere? Hmmm... I don't know enough about the rules to judge that one. I'll just assume it works, okay? How does flicker work? Abjurations extend to the ethereal plane. If it uses the shadow or astral plane, then add one dimentional anchor to the mix. Yes a non epic wizard can craft meta magic rods.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-03-07, 03:38 PM	Let's see... the mystery description says (minus parenthetical comments), "Once per round, as an immediate action (i.e. usable any time, even if it's not your turn), you can instantly transfer yourself to any other location within a distance of five feet per two caster levels (5*20*1/2=50 ft.). You arrive at exactly the spot desired--just as with the spell Dimension Door. If you cast flicker in response to an attack against you, the attack has a 50% miss chance." If I had to guess where you go when you cast it, I'd say the plane of shadow. It is shadow magic, after all. But in truth, this is kind of a grey area in the rules. Hey, just a thought: Probably, if someone cast "Hold Monster" on me, I would be forced to sit still long enough to be killed by some less ostentatious means. Has that occured to anyone?
ElIsRa 03-03-07, 05:45 PM	Personally, I like the way Novabomb took out your Binder. As for the Immediate action non-sense, you only get to do that once a round, so you could either chose to flicker to the left, right, forward, or backward 5ft (no effect on the outcome) down 5ft (passing one layer at most) or up 5ft (delaying the inevitable). YaY for Flicker not being nearly as bad-azzed as you thought!
Prator_the_Legendary 03-03-07, 06:32 PM	five feet per two caster levels (5*20*1/2=50 ft.). Read more carefully. It's a good plan, and it MIGHT work, depending on how the DM interprets the rules. However, if the DM rules in my favor, then I can warp out of the sphere entirely and get to a safe distance. Now, what would be REALLY clever is to trick me into spending my single immediate action with a quickened spell that I will try to dodge, and THEN do everything else. That would work, no question.