A discussion on tactics... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A discussion on tactics... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
David_Roben2
07-18-06, 02:21 PM My question to everyone is twofold. First, I am planning on, before our next session, discussing effective tactics with the group. We have 4 players and a DMPC and 2 of the players are very new with a third with a little gaming experience and then myself with the most gaming experience of the entire group (including the DM). Is it too heavy-handed to explain classic roles of the characters? Should I let nature run its course and let the newbies learn what works by trial and error? To you DMs out there, is this metagaming?

Secondly, What tactics should I be pointing out? Here is our group:

Human cleric 3 or 4 (can't remember)
Human Rogue 4
Human Ranger 4 (TWF but decent with a bow)
Human monk 3 (DMPC)
Human cleric 2/Evoker 2 (me)

The cleric and rogue are the newbies and they refuse to get into melee in any battle. The ranger tanks pretty well, but has problems with HP. I am currently having trouble balancing keeping the ranger alive and staying out of melee to be the gunner. I want to tell the cleric to step up as the secondary tank and then will be close enough to heal the fighter types. The rogue doesn't quite understand his sneak attack. I think he should be within 30' to shoot anyone flanked by the tanks and advance to flank if the tanks can't get position. I should be behind the tanks to step up to heal and step back to cast offensively. We have done ok so far, but death has been immenant a few times. As the encounters get harder, we might not make it. Any other good tactics I should consider?
Sereno
07-18-06, 02:49 PM Actually, I think you've got the opposite of metagaming, here. Where the players actually know a lot LESS than their PCs would.

Characters of level 3 and 4 are competant professionals, like pro atheletes and buisness leaders in our world. They know their business very well, and are better (at least at their specialty) than most of the rest of the people in the world!

There's nothing wrong, IMO, about advising the newbie players as to what they "should" be doing in different situations.

They should be learning that a cleric should be taking advantage of their ability to wear heavy armor and should be out front soaking up some of the melee damage. The rogue should be using their sneak attack (and flanking) to best effect and retreating when they start to get damaged.

Discussing tactics is a big part of DnD combat ... either before, or after.

I don't like lengthy tactics discussing DURING combat because you've only got six seconds in which to act. I try to keep my "combat-talk" down to what my character could realistically know and communicate, "Cleric, block that door! Ranger, drop those goblin archers! Wizard, blast a few of these buggers off me!!"
David_Roben2
07-18-06, 03:52 PM Thanks for the reply Sereno. The idea was to discuss this briefly before the session or make it an in-game group meeting type discussion. I try to set a good RP example for these impressionable gamer minds. I was worried that a DM might see me explaining roles to these people and say "Hey keep you nose out of it. You run your character and let them run theirs." Also, I have a tendancy to take over as party leader pretty naturally. I've been trying to test myself and stay in the backseat, leadership wise. I just want to drop a few hints to the beginners to help keep the whole party alive. Also, the tactics I have above are pretty simplistic. Are they solid? Can anybody improve on them?
TheChilliGod
07-18-06, 04:20 PM If the DM tells you to stop messing with the other players' choices, apologize to the DM (sarcastically, if you prefer), then turn to the players and ask them if they want you to give them tips in combating.

Ideally, ask them anyway, before you give them the advice.

If the DM goes on the metagaming angle, bring out Sereno's (rather compelling) counter-argument, pointing out that it's OOC discussion, not IC discussion (So your character isn't in that leadership position you don't want) and that 3rd lvl characters (heck, even 1st level!) should know a few basic combat strategies.

Of course, if the players themselves would rather not the help, then don't push the issue.
Until the party starts getting mushed into little pastry balls, in which case ask again if they'd like you to provide them with some tactical assistance out-of-character.

As for the tactics themselves, note that the rogue must flank the target herself; two other guys flanking the target won't work by RAW.
Using tumble (if the rogue has ranks in it) is usually a great way to get into flanking position.
And yes, the cleric should usually step up as secondary fighter as that's usually supposed to be the cleric's secondary role anyway. (Spells like Divine Favor/Power help along with this, as well as casting defensively)
What does your character do himself, btw? Is he a Magic Missile guy that cures people?
Other than that, the tips seem pretty much solid for now. No need to dive in too deep, after all.
kelvinaw273
07-18-06, 07:30 PM OK, your tactics:

Weakness: You have no tank.

Strength: pleanty of healing, buffing and skills, plus all of your characters can fight in some way.

Ideal tactics:

1) scout ahead (you have three potentially stealthy characters - rogue, monk, ranger), prepare for your foes with buffs and select targets and precise tactics accordingly. Good buffs are those that enhance AC and hit points of the flankers, or your chances to hit generally (ever present Bless).

2) Engage at range to draw out minions, possibly into a killing zone if you can. If you can manage to avoid melee combat completely, do so.

3) Use your flankers (rogue and monk) to take down leaders/spellcasters/BBEGs with surprise and speed, then you should have the minions outflanked and confused, ready for mopping up.

The thing to remember is while you don't have a front guy who can stand up like a dreadnaught, you do have stealthy fighters who can use range, speed and surprise effectively. You can hit hard and run away, and get in close and use surprise.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
David_Roben2 07-18-06, 02:21 PM	My question to everyone is twofold. First, I am planning on, before our next session, discussing effective tactics with the group. We have 4 players and a DMPC and 2 of the players are very new with a third with a little gaming experience and then myself with the most gaming experience of the entire group (including the DM). Is it too heavy-handed to explain classic roles of the characters? Should I let nature run its course and let the newbies learn what works by trial and error? To you DMs out there, is this metagaming? Secondly, What tactics should I be pointing out? Here is our group: Human cleric 3 or 4 (can't remember) Human Rogue 4 Human Ranger 4 (TWF but decent with a bow) Human monk 3 (DMPC) Human cleric 2/Evoker 2 (me) The cleric and rogue are the newbies and they refuse to get into melee in any battle. The ranger tanks pretty well, but has problems with HP. I am currently having trouble balancing keeping the ranger alive and staying out of melee to be the gunner. I want to tell the cleric to step up as the secondary tank and then will be close enough to heal the fighter types. The rogue doesn't quite understand his sneak attack. I think he should be within 30' to shoot anyone flanked by the tanks and advance to flank if the tanks can't get position. I should be behind the tanks to step up to heal and step back to cast offensively. We have done ok so far, but death has been immenant a few times. As the encounters get harder, we might not make it. Any other good tactics I should consider?
Sereno 07-18-06, 02:49 PM	Actually, I think you've got the opposite of metagaming, here. Where the players actually know a lot LESS than their PCs would. Characters of level 3 and 4 are competant professionals, like pro atheletes and buisness leaders in our world. They know their business very well, and are better (at least at their specialty) than most of the rest of the people in the world! There's nothing wrong, IMO, about advising the newbie players as to what they "should" be doing in different situations. They should be learning that a cleric should be taking advantage of their ability to wear heavy armor and should be out front soaking up some of the melee damage. The rogue should be using their sneak attack (and flanking) to best effect and retreating when they start to get damaged. Discussing tactics is a big part of DnD combat ... either before, or after. I don't like lengthy tactics discussing DURING combat because you've only got six seconds in which to act. I try to keep my "combat-talk" down to what my character could realistically know and communicate, "Cleric, block that door! Ranger, drop those goblin archers! Wizard, blast a few of these buggers off me!!"
David_Roben2 07-18-06, 03:52 PM	Thanks for the reply Sereno. The idea was to discuss this briefly before the session or make it an in-game group meeting type discussion. I try to set a good RP example for these impressionable gamer minds. I was worried that a DM might see me explaining roles to these people and say "Hey keep you nose out of it. You run your character and let them run theirs." Also, I have a tendancy to take over as party leader pretty naturally. I've been trying to test myself and stay in the backseat, leadership wise. I just want to drop a few hints to the beginners to help keep the whole party alive. Also, the tactics I have above are pretty simplistic. Are they solid? Can anybody improve on them?
TheChilliGod 07-18-06, 04:20 PM	If the DM tells you to stop messing with the other players' choices, apologize to the DM (sarcastically, if you prefer), then turn to the players and ask them if they want you to give them tips in combating. Ideally, ask them anyway, before you give them the advice. If the DM goes on the metagaming angle, bring out Sereno's (rather compelling) counter-argument, pointing out that it's OOC discussion, not IC discussion (So your character isn't in that leadership position you don't want) and that 3rd lvl characters (heck, even 1st level!) should know a few basic combat strategies. Of course, if the players themselves would rather not the help, then don't push the issue. Until the party starts getting mushed into little pastry balls, in which case ask again if they'd like you to provide them with some tactical assistance out-of-character. As for the tactics themselves, note that the rogue must flank the target herself; two other guys flanking the target won't work by RAW. Using tumble (if the rogue has ranks in it) is usually a great way to get into flanking position. And yes, the cleric should usually step up as secondary fighter as that's usually supposed to be the cleric's secondary role anyway. (Spells like Divine Favor/Power help along with this, as well as casting defensively) What does your character do himself, btw? Is he a Magic Missile guy that cures people? Other than that, the tips seem pretty much solid for now. No need to dive in too deep, after all.
kelvinaw273 07-18-06, 07:30 PM	OK, your tactics: Weakness: You have no tank. Strength: pleanty of healing, buffing and skills, plus all of your characters can fight in some way. Ideal tactics: 1) scout ahead (you have three potentially stealthy characters - rogue, monk, ranger), prepare for your foes with buffs and select targets and precise tactics accordingly. Good buffs are those that enhance AC and hit points of the flankers, or your chances to hit generally (ever present Bless). 2) Engage at range to draw out minions, possibly into a killing zone if you can. If you can manage to avoid melee combat completely, do so. 3) Use your flankers (rogue and monk) to take down leaders/spellcasters/BBEGs with surprise and speed, then you should have the minions outflanked and confused, ready for mopping up. The thing to remember is while you don't have a front guy who can stand up like a dreadnaught, you do have stealthy fighters who can use range, speed and surprise effectively. You can hit hard and run away, and get in close and use surprise.