Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asmodeous 10-18-04, 12:31 AM	Hello everybody. My DM has found a really great way to seriously nerf mine, and other player characters in our game. As of this moment, this is my character; Level 16/6 cleric/ air elemental servante. Domains. Travel & Air. Stats. Str = 11, Dex = 16, Int = 19, Wis = 21, Con = 17, Chr = 16. Hit points = 166. Feats. Composite long bow proficiency, brew potion, craft weapons & armor, point blank shot, precise shot, quicken, extend, energy conversion, improved init. Skills. Too many to list, but basically this character had an 18 Int from level 1 so Concentration, spell craft and know - religion are all 25. Equipment. House ruled/created epic relic composite long bow. +6/dread versus earth outsiders. number of other abilities that cost one nineth level spell slot to use. estimated value = 1,500,000 gp. Epic ring of acid immunity. = 244,000gp. quiver of elhonna. bag of holding No. 4. perapt of wisdom +5 (house rule) holy symbol of empowered turning. current "cash" 4,300 gp. According to the character wealth rules, my character is rich. The house rule bow alone is worth more than the suggested character wealth. The problem is, that while it is a +13 bow, it really is only a +6 bow because the dread enchantment only works on certain encounters. A +6 bow really, isnt much worse than this +13 bow, but my character is obligated to use and possess it because it is the "sacred artifact" of my diety and im pretty much told I have to use it. I cannot sell it, much as I would like to, but my character would never consider it, but power wise, she would be far better off selling it, buying a +6 bow, and then spending the change on armor, another ring, boots, gloves, belt, cloaks etc etc. The epic ring of acid immunity is very useful, so I cant complain about that, but the rest of my items are comparable to characters half of my level. Its a great way for a dm to nerf a character. All he has to do is; avoid earth outsider opponents. use creatures that dont do acid damage. This makes it very easy for the dm to slaughter the party at any time with out doing much planning. Examples of our game play in the past. We fought a CL 21 creature from the epic book, I forget the actual name, but it is the huge flying mass of wings thing. In three rounds it had slaughtered 2 members of our party. Last night, we fought 2 paragon gargolyes who managed to slaughter my cleric in two rounds, and that was after casting a mass heal on the party the round before. its a bit had to survive 130 odd hit points per round with a lousy armor class, no damage reduction and hardly any magical items. We also fought a earth outsider creature that was an EC 20, one CL lower than our party. With my clerics bow, it should have been a cake walk, but it still nearly killed the party wizard and fighter despite my character averaging 180 points per round at it for 5 rounds. It was the sort of encounter a good dm wouldnt do. One CL lower than party, one party member has an item of slaughter against it, its too easy. yet, This was the first fight we have had for several gaming sessions where we did not have a character death. We have been averaging 1-2 party members (party size =3) every combat encounter. This is another great way to nerf characters by forcing them to spend 25,000gp on true ressurection after every fight. Oh, and booty? well, the earth outsider, gargoyles and mass of wings did yield us a 20,000 ring of acid resistance and a ring of 3 wishes. approx 100,000 gp for the three encounters, but we also had to true ressurect 4 people, and two of those true ressurections cost us extra because it was to raise my cleric. so we went backwards. So, here is a tip to other players out there. If you ever have a dm that treats you like this, then its time to take up a new hobby. Watch tv, play computer games or read a book and throw away your dnd stuff, or join another gaming group. Mean and stingy dm's totally destroy the gaming fun for players. Totally.
Vorm 10-18-04, 12:40 AM	So.. do you still play with this DM? And did you start at level 22? I enjoy starting from scratch at level 1 so my DM has a good knowledge of my character's personality and battle style, plus he gives out mounds of gold so we buy our own magic items :)
MortalPlague 10-18-04, 01:11 AM	Honestly, my take on it isn't nerfing at all. Your DM seems pretty fair. Tough and violent, yet fair. Forcing you to pay for resurrection isn't at all far-fetched, and not allowing your character to sell a relic of your church isn't far-fetched either. Of course, it sounds like you could do with more treasure, but this doesn't sound much like a nerf to me. Just a DM who's a little too stingy and too tough.
Cold Napalm 10-18-04, 02:00 AM	Unless you asked for the bow or it was an item from a quest you happily went on, FORCING a weapon on you kinda sucks big time. Otherwise, I really don't see too much problem other then he's very violent...and good at it.
fatal error 10-18-04, 02:10 AM	The bow is dumb, he forced it on you. Then he actually has the gall to have one of the three encounters be the thing it owns. And he has to deal with either A) badly CR'd creatures or B) bad players who can't use good tactics etc. And then of all the things, makes characters PAY for true res, I mean, come on, who ever heard of epic level characters having to use good tactics and having to actually use gold on something...
Asmodeous 10-18-04, 02:10 AM	Vorm. No, I have been playing this character since first level. Originally, the character was a second ed, converted to 3.0, then 3.5. MortalPlague. Thats the whole point. Nothing is far fetched about it. Off course Im expected to pay for true ressurections, not sell the bow. Im rail roaded into this situation where I have no choices and no options. One uber super magical bow that is next to useless and half a dozen other 2 bit items that no doubt my dm will take from me in the next few sessions. Its depressing trying to role play under these circumstances. Players are supposed to have fun as well as the dm. My Dm keeps on saying that the encounters are the correct EL for our party, but conveniently forgets that our party is nerfed to hell and are not an EL 21 party. We have to buff our selves out of the planet just to survive 3 rounds in these fights that are supposed to consume 20% of our party resources. its more like a 20% chancer per encounter per character of dying. Magical items, stat boosts, etc etc are all part of being a character of a certain level. You simply cant have a level 20 odd character with no items. The effective EL is 4-5 lower yet our DM doesnt factor this in and wont listen to reason. Its absurd that Im revising 3 magical vestment spells to buff my armor, shield and the fighters shield up. Or relying on righteous might for damage reduction, and then finding out the hard way that everything you fight can bypass your damage reduction everytime. I also use the holy aura spell a lot, yet have never, ever had a creature suffer the effects of striking somebody protected by the spells. Guess the dm's dice doesnt have a one on it. Oh, and every time I cast a spell at a monster, I automatically determine the saved results because everything saves versus our spells every time. I cast destruction spell and automatically roll 10d6. when My character started revising the energy drain spell, instantly all our opponents where undead or constructs. i only managed to fool him once, when I revised a disrupting weapon as well as energy drain and smashed his undead monsters with my mace. Im far better off playing dnd computer games. Linear as all hell, but at least you get a chance to win.
fatal error 10-18-04, 02:22 AM	You could try this: next time you die refuse resurrection and make a new character, with full starting wealth and items of your choosing. If you want to be mean go to char op boards and find a 'broken' (butno hulking hurler please) build and use it.
Cold Napalm 10-18-04, 02:28 AM	Well tell HIM that. Having gold FAR below what your suppose to have does lower what CR your party is...but however, it looks like you do have around the right amount of gold in items. The fact that something the bow is suppose to be good againt pounded you to dirt leads me to think either he's too good, or you guys suck. If your spell casters don't know how to be effective, they could be level 22 and get whoop by a CR 12 elemental.
was_fired 10-18-04, 02:45 AM	Ummm your the one who made your character overspecific from the looks of it. For instance: Why get a ring of acid immunity? It costs more than a ring of universal enemental resistance even if 1/10th of the time it does more (250k for acid immunity, 210k for ER 20 vs all) it still will help you less in most fights. I can see how the bow is annoying, but then again must epic enchantments suck compaired to their non-epic versions. For instance elemental blasts cost a whooping +6 for less than you would get for having three non-epic burst enchancements placed on the weapon (both give 3d6 extra without crits, the bursts would add 3d8 extra for every x1 while blast adds 3d6 extra for each x1). Dread is even worse about this. It gives twice the benifit bane does with an added if you crit you have to make a fort save or die (not a very hard save for epic level monsters), and for the cost of one dread enchacement you could get seven banes. So really which would you rather have an earth dread longbow. Or a earth, fire, water, evil outsider, chaotic outsider, lawful outsider, undead bane longbow. You really ought to consider asking him if you can change it to a multi-bane weapon rather than a single dread one. In a few cases the dread one actually outperforms a bane. For example the phaethon (chaotic, evil, and fire so a +6 along with an extra 6d6).
Asmodeous 10-18-04, 03:16 AM	The bow and the ring of acid immunity where given to my character. The bow is the property of the high cleric of the churhc, which happens to be my character. it would be good if my character could give up the position of high cleric and there fore the bow, but thats immpossible in the game world at the moment for reasons to in depth to go into here. The ring was a good idea. At 10th level air elemental servante, my character will take double damage from acid, so a ring of acid immunity is a good idea. This was also "given" to a character as a quest reward. The only items that My character have gone out to try and get, I either loose very quickly or have to sell. it seems that the items our dm wants us to have, we can keep and are stuck with, and the items we actually want, we cannot get, and/or cannot keep for very long. 3-4 sessions on average. I asked the dm if our characters could look for an easier encounter, once we can win easily and profit from and he said that our epic characters dont need to do that sort of thing, that it would be boring, and whats the point? In other words, we are not allowed to gain the money to buy the magical items we want our characters to have. He has always played the "you just cant walk into a shop and buy a + this and that, it doesnt work that way". While I tend to agree, its just part of his control methods. Just like the high level wizard who we fought in his own home/tower. you would expect such a place to have some loot somewhere but all we could find with all of our spells, high level rogue was a few thousand gp and two spell books containing low level spells. The wizard didnt even have any items on his person. We cannot buy the items we want, we cannot find any items of use, only the items the dm wants us to have, and if we create an item, we loose it very quickly. fatal error. Nice idea, but the problem is, all the stuff usually used in those "broken" builds are house ruled out lawed. You know, persistance, multispell, most PrC's, etc etc. Cold nalpamn. we are using good tactics. With the earth outsider encounter, we where supposed to win that easily. The party wizard cast hast on me and I was using quickened dimension doors to keep the creature at range while I blasted it. I did about 900 hit points of damage to it all up. But the EL was lower so we got stuff all xp and no loot.
Phrennzy 10-18-04, 09:42 AM	Print out this thread and show it to your DM. You are not having fun. If that wizard didn't have any items on him, that is straight out B.S. Talk with the other players and see what their take on things is. Maybe it's just YOUR perception of things, but I doubt it.
Aki Warren 10-18-04, 11:09 AM	I had a similar problem once. I was playing a Netural Evil Demonic Fighter. Our party had few, very few, magical items. Needless to say, my Demon was less then pleased about the lack of magical might. So, I asked the bard if he could tell me where a Mage was who was of the Crest rank (9th level, I was about 13) was located. The DM was confused (Bard was an NPC) but told me where it was. I thanked the bard, and walked off to the location with my Rogue Cohort in tow. The rogue snuck me in, and we captured the wizard. I looted his place and forced him to gather magical items for me or I'd kill his children. To prove I was serious I killed his wife. After he gave me everything, I killed him. Let the children live though. Never said I wouldn't kill him :D My point is if the DM isn't giving you magical items, give him the finger and go looting. Roll Lore or gather information and find mages, fighters, clerics, or rogues lower level then you and loot the crap out of them. Find people no one likes, like evil people. Kill them. Raze their home. Loot their stuff. Your a hero, it's what you do :mymy:
spasheridan 10-18-04, 02:27 PM	If I were you I would give the bow back to the church. Right away. I would then start asking the DM to give you some time to go "slumming". Hunt giants. Maybe young dragons. Pakcs of trolls. Kill CR 12 - 15 monsters. Request that the DM just pick some random encounters out of the MM and roll random treasure. THe key here is the random treasure rolls. Just slum like this for a few sessions and you should quickly start raking in the cash. When the DM brings you a high CR encounter just avoid it. Run away, TP, just don't fight it. After that, consider the following: 1) CR is based on a few details. 1 is that you are a 4 person party. Second is that you have appropraite cash. Since neither of these are true you should boost all CR's by a small amount to determine their actual EL. 2) Consider EL rather than CR. 1 monster battles are generally veyr lopsided. Either the PC's have the power to defeat it and they win quick or the monster has the edge and it kills the PCs. Try and get your DM to have encounters with say 6 monsters at CR of your level - 4 or 6. And then it's 6 rolls on the treasure list instead of 1... 3) You transfered characters from 2n ed to 3.5 ed. Maybe that was the bad idea. New game, new rules, new monsters, new balance. Start a new game and learn yer PCs from the ground up. Jumping into high level play is just suicide in these games. If the monsters are apropriately played then you just loose. All of the lessons you are learning now (monsters always make saves, certain tactics kill you fast) you would have learned levels ago and adjusted your tactics when you could have survived more than 2 rounds of full attacks. The real reason why you need to restart yer PC's is because with your current set up you would have NEVER made the level you are at. You just don't have the right gear for it. A PC at epic levels should have and AC over 40 if you're in full plate and shield mode. That's Amror + 5, Shield + 5, ring + 5, natural AC +5. At the minimum. Anything less than that and you should never ever ever be toe to toe with a monster.
LyleMarraus 10-18-04, 03:01 PM	My group had a similar problem, starting at lvl 1, every battle we came across was the be all and end of fight for our lives. It was taking for ever to get anywhere because we would have to camp for weeks just to get the ability damage to heal. I didnt have to go to this extream because we have a dm that can read the goup fairly well at times and saw the lack of fun, but tell your dm the bow should not count to char worth because you have no choice about it and if you cant have money to buy the things you need to survive, this isnt fun and im not going to play anymore. Then start your own game, with a new group.
White rabbit 10-18-04, 03:50 PM	Firstly, why was a cleric having to pay gold for resurrections that you could cast yourself for free? Why? :confused: Secondly, anybody who has worked their way up from first to 22 level is going to have WAY more loot than that. One or two epic items and 4 lesser items? That's just silly. A single dragon hoard alone has that many non-epic magic items. Thridly, foisting an item on a character that they can neither use to it's ultimate effectiveness, nor wanted in the first place is asinine. The DM should have considered the character's weapon preferrence at the very least. Fourthly, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't gargoyles have the earth subtype? It sounds to me that the DM is using the game to showcase his TPK builds.
Adraedan 10-18-04, 04:14 PM	Well, my first suggestion is to give your DM the finger, tell him to go f*** himself and probably punch him in the face for good measure. Epic campaigns, IMHO, suck. They're not fun, the only challenges are usually either way too easy or way too hard. If you want to continue using this character in an attempt to save the campaign from the DM, I would figure out a way to "accidentally" lose/destroy the bow (and if the DM makes the bow return to you/indestructable, then I'd add a few knees to the back of the skull and maybe a buffalo sleeper to my above suggestion) OR, if you still want to play this PC with the bow intact, I would talk to the other players about strategy. My old DM was an a** smoker, not in the unfair way, but in the really, really hard encounters way. I got together with the other PCs and we came up with a few sets of tactics for different types of encounters, and we named these tactics after animals. In the middle of a fight, one of us would, for example, say "hawk" at which point the two tanks of the party would get infront of a larger enemy and the other characters would stand behind them with reach weapons and buff spells for the tanks. Wolf was our code for surrounding a target for flanking, bear would mean that we try to grapple the thing and pin it down so as to allow our rogue to go sneak attack crazy and virus...well, virus was my tactical creation ment for fighting things that can eat you (potion/spells that give invulnerability for a short time are really good for getting swallowed with a whole lot of exploding potions) and raven was all about called shots for the eyes and other sensory organs or completely picking apart a creature so that it can't do much other than flail about blindly. Even though this is frowned upon, if you DM really is a d***, I would take a look through the MM and other source books and try to get a working knowledge of the weaknesses of monsters. Never ever say stuff like "I take the Bullet poop because it melts rock" because how would the character know that, just do stuff like you're acting randomly so he hopefully doesn't catch on.
UltimateReality 10-18-04, 05:34 PM	My old DM was an a** smoker, not in the unfair way, but in the really, really hard encounters way. I got together with the other PCs and we came up with a few sets of tactics for different types of encounters, and we named these tactics after animals. This is a cool idea. My DM is killer with the "well, it's technically within your CR range so you should be able to kill it" encounters. Doing up a cheat sheet of tactics would probably help our group and aid me in procrastinating studying for my midterms and doing the dishes anyway. :D So I may just do a quick synopsis/guide to tactics of what we've faced so far. (My character likes to write, anyway...and I like the possibility of enriching the game world and bonus RP XP!) Even though this is frowned upon, if you DM really is a d***, I would take a look through the MM and other source books and try to get a working knowledge of the weaknesses of monsters. Never ever say stuff like "I take the Bullet poop because it melts rock" because how would the character know that, just do stuff like you're acting randomly so he hopefully doesn't catch on. I would use this verrrrry carefully (if at all), because you run the risk of even worse DM wrath if he has even the slightest reason to point his finger at you and scream "metagaming!" But if you know how to do it, you can get away with it...just be very, very subtle. *cough* :angel:
DragonsArt 10-19-04, 11:02 AM	Simple... talk to the other players. If you're not having fun. Don't show up one session. When he asks why... tell him you aren't having fun... and if you can't have fun playing D&D... there's no point... as you can have fun doing other things.
Cold Napalm 10-19-04, 07:12 PM	Umm asmod...900 damage is kinda piddly for 5 rounds for epic characters. Umm some of my level 20 characters can do that in 1 round...by himself. Also while using quickened DD is a fine option, note that if you used other quickened spells...like say ones that did damage, or de-buffed the monsters while the fighter drew out AoO so you can shoot to your hearts content at point blank, you would have been WAY more effective. Also party of 3 means that CR 21 does not drain 25% resources anymore...it should be 33%. The fact that the elemental gave your party trouble while having a weapon specifically designed for it leads me to think that just MAYBE you and the other players aren't ready to play epic games and you guys should just start a new game. Epic games when run right are incredible tough. It assumes you learned a lot in the process of getting to those levels...that's a big if. Even if you did, did the fighter and mage? nope? Then useless. Especially the mage. Nothing nerfs an epic mage more then a bad player.
Asmodeous 10-20-04, 08:26 AM	If I were you I would give the bow back to the church. Right away. I would then start asking the DM to give you some time to go "slumming". Hunt giants. Maybe young dragons. Pakcs of trolls. Kill CR 12 - 15 monsters. Request that the DM just pick some random encounters out of the MM and roll random treasure. THe key here is the random treasure rolls. Just slum like this for a few sessions and you should quickly start raking in the cash. When the DM brings you a high CR encounter just avoid it. Run away, TP, just don't fight it. I cannot give the bow back to the church. Like I said before, Thats too long a stroy to go into atm. Basically, there is no church, and im the only cleric of my god in the world. After that, consider the following: 1) CR is based on a few details. 1 is that you are a 4 person party. Second is that you have appropraite cash. Since neither of these are true you should boost all CR's by a small amount to determine their actual EL. 2) Consider EL rather than CR. 1 monster battles are generally veyr lopsided. Either the PC's have the power to defeat it and they win quick or the monster has the edge and it kills the PCs. Try and get your DM to have encounters with say 6 monsters at CR of your level - 4 or 6. And then it's 6 rolls on the treasure list instead of 1... I wish my dm would heed your advise. That is part of my point. Our dm is not adjusting his encounters for our three party, item deficient state. Hence why we get slaughtered. 3) You transfered characters from 2n ed to 3.5 ed. Maybe that was the bad idea. New game, new rules, new monsters, new balance. Start a new game and learn yer PCs from the ground up. Jumping into high level play is just suicide in these games. If the monsters are apropriately played then you just loose. All of the lessons you are learning now (monsters always make saves, certain tactics kill you fast) you would have learned levels ago and adjusted your tactics when you could have survived more than 2 rounds of full attacks. we didnt jump into high level play. Up untill the epic started, our party was balanced. we had about the right character wealth in items we should have, and we could hold our own. Character deaths where rare. Its only now we have entered epic game play, our dm has decided to strip us of our items and doesnt seem to care less that we have at least one character death per combat encounter. The real reason why you need to restart yer PC's is because with your current set up you would have NEVER made the level you are at. You just don't have the right gear for it. A PC at epic levels should have and AC over 40 if you're in full plate and shield mode. That's Amror + 5, Shield + 5, ring + 5, natural AC +5. At the minimum. Anything less than that and you should never ever ever be toe to toe with a monster. That isnt the players fault. its the dm's. My cleric has a defence of 27. normal chain shirt, dex +3, +5 from magical vestment on a buckler and the chain shirt. (10+4+3+5+5=27) I used to have +7 mithral breast plate, ring of protection and dex boosting gloves untill our dm decide to take them all off us. Firstly, why was a cleric having to pay gold for resurrections that you could cast yourself for free? Why? To get the cleric ressurected without loosing a level. Thats why. Secondly, anybody who has worked their way up from first to 22 level is going to have WAY more loot than that. One or two epic items and 4 lesser items? That's just silly. A single dragon hoard alone has that many non-epic magic items. Correct in a normal dnd game. But not with our dm. Thridly, foisting an item on a character that they can neither use to it's ultimate effectiveness, nor wanted in the first place is asinine. The DM should have considered the character's weapon preferrence at the very least. Well, my clerics weapon of preference is the comp long bow. The deity's prefered weapon is a single missile weapon. Fourthly, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't gargoyles have the earth subtype? It sounds to me that the DM is using the game to showcase his TPK builds. I dont know. I never lived long enough to use the bow against them to find out. Well, my first suggestion is to give your DM the finger, tell him to go f*** himself and probably punch him in the face for good measure. Lol. well, my dm happens to be a 3rd dan akido instructor and erm, im not! :rolleyes: Umm asmod...900 damage is kinda piddly for 5 rounds for epic characters. Umm some of my level 20 characters can do that in 1 round...by himself. Also while using quickened DD is a fine option, note that if you used other quickened spells...like say ones that did damage, or de-buffed the monsters while the fighter drew out AoO so you can shoot to your hearts content at point blank, you would have been WAY more effective. Also party of 3 means that CR 21 does not drain 25% resources anymore...it should be 33%. The fact that the elemental gave your party trouble while having a weapon specifically designed for it leads me to think that just MAYBE you and the other players aren't ready to play epic games and you guys should just start a new game. Epic games when run right are incredible tough. It assumes you learned a lot in the process of getting to those levels...that's a big if. Even if you did, did the fighter and mage? nope? Then useless. Especially the mage. Nothing nerfs an epic mage more then a bad player. Well, if I had some magical items, then perhaps my character would do much more damage. how much damage could your characters do with the magical items my cleric has? In the fight with the earth creature, It was my character that did most of the damage. The wizards meteor swarms and the fighters weapon where all bouncing off it (resists and dr) where as my arrows where going right thru it. The creature was also immune to crits. I drops a few crits in my 5 attacks per round. x3 crit multiplier on a bow with the dread enhancement would have done insane damage (normal damage = 2d6 weapon, 4d6 dread plus 17 to damage). Also, normally, I can add 5d6 lightning damage to my arrows damage, but I didnt use that ability for that fight because i knew the creature was immune to it.
Archtyrant Terevoth 10-20-04, 09:14 AM	A +6 dread bow for a 22nd level cleric ain't bad, it's probably a lot better than what most of your allies have. Where you're really shaky however is on defense, if you've got no ring of protection, am of natural armor or magic armor/shield, then you're in trouble defensively, but you're an archer so it isn't that bad. Basically just use spells like anti-life shell to keep opponents at bay and you're set. I don't see your character as being exceptionally nerfed in any way. If you sell the ring of acid immunity you'd have plenty of funds to buy whatever you wanted. I don't even see your DM as a nerfer, he may be a killer DM, but he's not a nerfer.
White rabbit 10-20-04, 03:41 PM	Your DM stripped you of your items? Was there a good in-game reason behind this? Other than just he didn't want you to have them? I can see the reason for paying for ressing the cleric, but once he's back, it's unneeded. Is your DM new? Is he aware of how treasure should be distributed? If he's never done this sort of thing before, why did he change now? At the very least, you should have some sort of magical armor.
krichaiushii 10-20-04, 06:28 PM	If you would prefer to be passive aggressive about things, conspire with your fellow players to let your PCs die in one glorious battle. Should the DM try to have you ressurected, explain that the PCs feel that their time on the mortal coil is done and they wish to remain in their assorted afterlife. Game over. Back to square one. With first level characters and better balanced encounters. But its best to tell the DM flat out that you (and perhaps the others) aren't having fun anymore. Hopefully, he will listen to sense.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-20-04, 07:09 PM	OK first let your DM rip your Cleric a new one. And when it comes time to be raised say that your cleric is happily resting and feels that his propase on this world is down now. Then tell your DM that you want to make a Paladin/Monk. Take one level of paladin and the rest monk. Then take holy vow of poverty. and if able slap the saint template on top of it. With all of the bonouses that you get from holy vow/ monk/ saint/ and that one level of paladin. You won't need equipment. Your saves will be insane, AC,well lets just say to calculate it all out you'd need to call NASA. And as for DR well your weapons would technically be +9 becuase Ki and exalted stake (methinks) and those are just your fists. For feats you'll probally want things like exalted strike, circle kick, and preying mantace leap. Eagles strike and improved disarm if you want to be a dick. then make yourself a cohort heal monkey for yourself. enjoy it if you get it, becuase self respecting DM would allow that twice.
tompulsar 10-20-04, 08:58 PM	Hi there Need some loot that's "easy for you to get" try Dragon Hunting! Specifically blue dragons which have the earth subtype. Tell your DM that you feel it is your divine calling to rid the world of destructive earth creatures (that have three times the treasure as normal) and these evil beasts fit the bill perfectly. Party level appropriate (and rich) Difficult to kill (and rich) and working toward the greater good is always heroic (plus they are rich). You have a clear advantage with your holy bow and your party members will thank you for all the extra loot. What do they care about danger they been dropping like flys every ten minutes anyway Ancient Blue Dragon = CR 21 Wyrm Blue Dragons = CR 23 Great Wyrm Blur Dragons = CR 25 A little Metagaming goes a long way. Happy Hunting! :D
Asmodeous 10-20-04, 11:51 PM	A +6 dread bow for a 22nd level cleric ain't bad, it's probably a lot better than what most of your allies have. One thing with our dm is that he is very logical. The way he sees it, that all epic melee characters simply must have an epic weapon. They have to because just about every creature in the book has epic damage reduction. Hence why the bow was "forced" upon me. It makes perfect logical sense in its very nature. Dread versus the opposition element of my characters diety is perfect and the weapons other traits all suit the logic of a air elemental diety very well. he has done his work well in creating the weapon and yes, it is a bit over powered for a level 22 character, but he can easily temper it with the encounters which means its a +6 epic weapon with relic abilities. Not too overpowering for a level 22 character. I dont have a problem with the dm "forcing" this bow onto my character, it is a good item. What I have a problem with is that it shouldn't be my characters only item. My dm seems to think that because its book value is 1.5 million or so and that exceeds my characters wealth limits according to the dmg, so he must get rid of all my other items and wealth which is not very fair seeing that he has created the situation where my character simply must have and possess the weapon. Im being forced into the situation. Where you're really shaky however is on defense, if you've got no ring of protection, am of natural armor or magic armor/shield, then you're in trouble defensively, but you're an archer so it isn't that bad. well, I used to have those things. My defence was 42 when I was level 20. Now I have been nerfed back to 27 for epic play. Not my choice, it is the dm's doing. The next item I expect to loose at the next session is my peraipt of wisdom. After that, It will be either the ring, bag of holding or quiver of elhonna. thats four sessions I expect to be down to only one magical item, the super uber bow. Basically just use spells like anti-life shell to keep opponents at bay and you're set. Tried that. Thats when all the encounters where against undead and constructs. When I gave up on revising anti life shell, we started encountering living opponents again. Funny that. I don't see your character as being exceptionally nerfed in any way. If you sell the ring of acid immunity you'd have plenty of funds to buy whatever you wanted. Its coming to that. But what ever I buy with the proceeds will be taken away from me anyway. My point is, a character shouldnt be going backward in item collection and wealth. The character wealth tables indicate that wealth increases with level, not decrease as our game play has been. I don't even see your DM as a nerfer, he may be a killer DM, but he's not a nerfer. well, he admits that he is controlling our parties power level by nerfing. He has said that in one form or another many a time. but you must be right and the dm and all the players are wrong. I am seriously considering leaving the gaming group now. I have a lot of problems with this, as it is my house that is used for the sessions and I obviously have to give the dm and other players time to arrange other locations to use. this nerfing of our characters has been going on for quite some time now and im just sick of it. Im looking for excuses to be doing something else instead of gaming hence why I dont visit/post these boards like I used to. it has been nice playing dnd before then. I have a lot of good memories of role playing in second edition, but when I think about it, those good times where always with low level characters (level 7 and below) so obviously our dm believes that he is the only one who is allowed to play super duper uber powerful characters thru his dmpc's and npc's who are always dragon kings (dark sun), elminster, morden kainen, bigby, otto, and a variety of super duper epic characters who can wipe the floor with the entire party with one quickened intensified meteor swarm with a dc save of 164. I forgot to mention that the only character in the party who doesnt loose items, but gains wealth and power is the dmpc. Im sick of it. Just sick of it. Just once, it would have been nice to have a character better than a npc or dmpc. :weep:
biospark_589 10-21-04, 01:31 AM	[QUOTE]On_the_wings_of_TPK OK first let your DM rip your Cleric a new one. And when it comes time to be raised say that your cleric is happily resting and feels that his propase on this world is down now. Then tell your DM that you want to make a Paladin/Monk. Take one level of paladin and the rest monk. Then take holy vow of poverty. and if able slap the saint template on top of it. With all of the bonouses that you get from holy vow/ monk/ saint/ and that one level of paladin. You won't need equipment. Your saves will be insane, AC,well lets just say to calculate it all out you'd need to call NASA. And as for DR well your weapons would technically be +9 becuase Ki and exalted stake (methinks) and those are just your fists. For feats you'll probally want things like exalted strike, circle kick, and preying mantace leap. Eagles strike and improved disarm if you want to be a dick. then make yourself a cohort heal monkey for yourself. enjoy it if you get it, becuase self respecting DM would allow that twice[QUOTE] Only no pal lvl use scared fist PrC(total levels Mnk6/Clr6/Scf10) from CD that way your DM can't force a weapon on you or you will lose your abilities (aka in game excuse to ditch any similar weapons DM may railroad u into) plus you get an armor bonus as a special ability and you get to keep some of your spellcasting. let us know how it all turns out.
Sir Todd 10-21-04, 06:44 AM	The problem is with the Epic rule set more than the GM. While the GM is clearly also a big part of the problem. The epic rules were never playtested before printing and are wildly unbalanced. Either the PCs slaughter everything they face or the monsters dispose of the PCs quickly. All depending on how well the players can abuse the epic rules. The nerfs seem to be restricting items/treasure and disallowing PrCs or other advanced options (So I doubt many of these builds posted will get past this guys GM). Also the GM trapped you with your own diety. Forcing the weapon on you then using it against you on the treasure issue. The FASTEST way to build massive fortunes in D&D is thru character death. The main advantage is that the GM has a difficult time stopping it. basically refuse to be brought back to life. This option is available in the core rules. The remaining PCs divide the PCs loot. And the player makes a new PC complete with all new loot. In fact the deadlier your GM gets the richer your PCs get. (it also neatly bypasses the God trap your in. the other PCs can freely sell your bow). The second fix is nessessary but requires all the PCs cooperation. Simply kick the DNPC out of the group. There should be NO DNPCs in play unless they are clearly inferior to the PCs. If all the players have their characters simply refuse to allow the DNPC into the group then there will be no way for the GM to use one without forcing him you. And if the GM forces the DNPC on the group treat the guy like an enemy and attack... if you win, I bet he will have good treasure. If you loose then the GM still can't force him on the now dead group. Last peice of advice... flee. Yes always prepare an escape route. If the monster is kicking you around severely run away and refuse to face it again till you have another 10 levels of experience.
Archtyrant Terevoth 10-21-04, 08:17 AM	OK, if he's actually making you lose equipment on purpose that sucks, especially if the monsters are doing well against your party anyway. Though I have to ask is it your character doing a lot of the dying, or is everyone else dying and you're slaughtering the encounters or what? I really can't imagine you'd be slaughtering anything with a 27 AC, but I'm wondering if he's doing it solely because of the wealth guidelines or if he actually feels something needs to be nerfed. Generally when someone gets nerfed, it isn't because of the wealth guidelines, but rather another reason that has to do with internal party balance. If he's nerfing you solely for the purpose of getting you in line with the wealth guidlines then he's wrong. If your character is indeed too powerful in actual play, then it's probably time to have a discussion with him.
Chuza 10-21-04, 01:54 PM	To me, it sounds like he is trying to kill off the game for one reason or another. That or he is setting you guys up for one heck of a ll after some quest.
White rabbit 10-21-04, 03:22 PM	One thing with our dm is that he is very logical. The way he sees it, that all epic melee characters simply must have an epic weapon. They have to because just about every creature in the book has epic damage reduction. Hence why the bow was "forced" upon me There's a big part of the problem right there. He doesn't have to use the monsters from the epic book in order to chalenge you. There are plenty of creatures from the MMs that are right at, or even above your chalenge rating.
Doug McCrae 10-21-04, 11:05 PM	The bottom line is you're not having fun. You should talk to your GM about it, explain why you're not having fun and make some suggestions as to the changes that need to be made. BTW how come you can lose magic items, anyway? What's the in-game justification for it? OTOH you think you've got it bad. In the DnD game I'm in, I'm playing a 6th level wizard-necromancer. My best (and only) magic item was a Wand of Burning Hands. Yep, it did 1d4 damage and they got to save for half. I just sold it for the cash. Meanwhile the party fighter just got a Ghost Touch Longsword +3. A couple sessions ago my spellbook got stolen by some crazy cultists who eat magic items. They ate the page with Mage Hand on before I could get it back, so I'm kinda going backwards too. I'm not complaining though, I love my character, I love the game and I'm enjoying it tremendously.
Cold Napalm 10-21-04, 11:39 PM	Humm no magic weapon...okay I only get to do 600 a round...oh pooh. Basically 180 isn't that huge a number as you think. BUT you do have a point about your EQ list. I'd say retire and come in with standard treasure. If somebody dies, don't true res them, just let them come in with standard eq and then you won't have this cycle of money drain while you guys get use to playing epic games.
Ratheus 10-22-04, 09:53 PM	Since your current game seems to have lost its fun, it's probably time to start over. I've got to agree with everybody claiming you should take the TPK and let it all go. I have a different suggestion at this point: A new DM. You've got a lot of experience as a player, and seem to have a good grasp on the rules. Take the next big step, or let another player do it. Chances are, if your current DM is purposely being unfair and a real phalice, he'll leave the game out of fear of revenge. If he stays as a player, well, you can try to show him you're better. Be careful, you don't want to stoop to his level. Be the better man. Hmm, a new spell: Smite bad DM.
airhed13 10-24-04, 06:56 PM	*snip* ... Last peice of advice... flee. Yes always prepare an escape route. If the monster is kicking you around severely run away and refuse to face it again till you have another 10 levels of experience. Use this alternative with caution. I was playing a small game, myself and one other guy with 2 PCs apiece, and the DM running two low-maintenace (min/maxed) NPCs in the party. He had some similar problems with monster difficulty at lower levels. While I'm still more than willing to play with him as a DM-- all things told, I think he did an excellent job-- he had a tendency later in our campaign to toss CR22+ monsters at our party with a net 5 or 6 characters level 14-17. He tossed us too many uber artifacts at first, then pulled 'em away deus ex machina when he realized the mistake he made (in all honesty, I'm glad he did. Being able to cast a free 100HP stoneskin 3/day from a bow is pretty ridiculous-- and that was just the start.) He had a hard time adjusting the level of monsters down for our newly-nerfed party and ended up deus ex machining us out of a couple TPKs. My fellow player and I got sick of it when he announced that we had a choice of killing the CR22 demon or the CR25 dragon or the (and I quote) "he'll kick all your asses" lawful evil state ruler. When he presented us with the choice, my fellow player and I told him, "No, no we're not going to go kill ourselves. We're going to find some sidequests to get some more experience first." He hasn't asked us back since. I assume the game is ended, which is ok. It was fun, but it needed to end. Just be warned that if your DM is using these ultra-uber monsters as personal ego trips, he may well prefer not playing to having you not follow his railroad tracks.
Degobah 10-24-04, 09:30 PM	Hi Asmodeous. The best solution to poor DMing: tell them they're voted off the island. DM yourself, or convince one of the other players to do it. A short break and a view from the players perspective might help the DM, even if its only for a session. Your other options are to convince them to run another campaign and hope the problems are campaign specific, tell them you're thinking about leaving and see if this encourages some changes, or just leave. Telling him how much he sucks is unlikely to encourage positive change, however satisfying it may be. Rational, mature discussion of campaign issues may help but if he belongs to the "DM is always right" school of thought, he may not be susceptible to change. These problems aren't always possible to fix, but if you've had good adventures in the past, trying and find where everything went wrong and fix it is worth it.
Asmodeous 10-25-04, 03:58 AM	Ok. I had a bit of a conversation with the dm, partly about the subject. part of the blame, according to him, is my fault and I guess I have to agree with him to some degree. I have always role played the character in question as a timid, i dont want to kill anything kind of passive character, which is fine. The dm however is trying to get the message into the character, that its time to shape up or ship out. Its nice to be a pacifist, but its time to decide. She cannot continue this line of thinking and expect to win in epic combats. Epci combat is brutal and bloody. No place of a timid little old lady. I admit, I have been role playing our combats, doing things as she wanted to and not going all out, but always holding something back "just in case". Or refusing to do something because it was unlady like, or "unfair". While I could get away with it pre epic, now I cannot. part of the item loss has come from dying and having to pay to be ressurrected. But where I had come back is that he has been modifying the creature loot, bassed on logic, that the creature wouldn't have any loot based on the game situation. While he is correct about the situation, he forgets that epic characters are expensive to run and they need a constant source of income, usually from loot. I also drove home the three character party problem and asked him to take this into consideration more carefully. he agreed with me. As far as my character, well we discussed some changes to my character. I asked about changing a feat either by miracle or psychic telant, psychic reformation i think it is called., which he agrees with And im thinking about a fighter level or 2 to get rapid shot/manyshot. It is almost a crime, that my character possesses the churches most holy weapon, and does not have the skill to utilize it properly, so improving her effectiveness with the bow is now her number one priority, ie, rapid shot and many shot.
Asmodeous 11-01-04, 12:50 AM	Well, I don't know if anybody is following this anymore, But so waht, its my rant thread, I can do what I like! (well, maybe not) Last night we had another session with this characters party. Another big fight this time against a perverted/corrupted avatar of tempest. A really nasty hand to hand melee monster. In the first encounter, the avatar seriously wiped the floor with the fighter in the second round and two rounds later, almost dropped my cleric. The party wizard got us the hell out casting a time stop then grabbing the remaining party members/fighters body and teleporting out when the time stop ended. Round two, we where better prepared for it. The fighter went all out against the avatar while I piled the healing into him like there was no tommorrow. eventually, the avatar was looking close to defeat when it decided to pull out the stops, casting an anti magic shell and reducing the fighters defence to next to nada. It then decided to power attack the fighter. its problem was the wizard beat it to the punch and cast a mordens disdunction on the anti magic. The wizard needed a 19 or lower on the percentile, the dice where thrown and guess what came up? 19. The anti magic shell came down, the fighters defence went up, the avatar power attacked, and missed. In a strange twist of the story line, the fight was all over. because the avatar missed a melee attack, it considered itself defeated. we won the fight. I figure what happened with the loot/reward from this was a lot of the dm trying to pacify us peed off players. The wizard got a +5 tome of dex, the fighter got a +7 epic sword, the psychic got some gee whiz crystal thing and I got a epic mantle of spell resistance sr 40 along with 10,000 platnium coins sprinkled into the entire package for padding. Anybody got a calculator to work out what that lot is worth? 1.5 million gp? :confused: Im still upset by the whole mess however. This is my characters 3rd epic item that the Dm has "given" to my character which is completely unbalanced for a level 22 character, who has not got any suit of magical armor, one ring, belt, gloves, braciers, boots or any other miscellaneous items apart from my bag of holding and quiver of elhonna. I really think im going to sell this mantle and try and trade it for a few "basic items". Role playing, my character would much prefer a pair of greater braciers of archery to use her chosen weapon rather than this stupid thing. makes buff spells from the party wizard next to useless. No 19th level wizard is going to get thru sr 40 on a regular basis. I wonder if it is just another dm nerf?
harlequin1311 11-01-04, 03:17 AM	While I won't touch the combat itself, I'll address two points in your post Asmodeous. 1) You may lower your spell resistance as a standard action, it will be down until the beginning of your next turn. So the buffs will be alright. 2) While I don't have the Epic Handbook I seem to remember that there is a little quirk in the custom pricing for epic spell resistance items. As written I think the pricing for a SR 40 item would be appropiate loot for a low-level epic encounter. But the common sense rule applies, so I think a DM might want to adjust it, unless he wants you almost immune to spells.
White rabbit 11-01-04, 02:23 PM	While a SR40 item is a super sweet item, it could be sold to buy literally tons of lower level useful magic items as well. Tough call really. Daern's instant fortress immediately comes to mind. Some low-end epic armor wouldn't be remiss either.
Asmodeous 11-01-04, 11:00 PM	While I won't touch the combat itself, I'll address two points in your post Asmodeous. 1) You may lower your spell resistance as a standard action, it will be down until the beginning of your next turn. So the buffs will be alright. While this works for pre combat spell buffing well, it doesn't work in combat. For example, In our combat earlier where the wizard cast time stop then teleport to get our party out of there, the wizard would have to beat the sr 40 in order to teleport my character. That could have proven fatal. 2) While I don't have the Epic Handbook I seem to remember that there is a little quirk in the custom pricing for epic spell resistance items. As written I think the pricing for a SR 40 item would be appropiate loot for a low-level epic encounter. But the common sense rule applies, so I think a DM might want to adjust it, unless he wants you almost immune to spells. Im not disagreeing with you, but you probably didnt read the full thread. this mantle is the third epic item my character has now. She also has a ring of acid immunity and a epic long bow, +6 dread thats also a house ruled epic relic so I can't value it exactly but i guessitmate it at roughly 1.5 million, so the three items together total 2.0 million gp approx. For a level 22 character, thats far more than the dmg's recommended character value by level. And, if you had a character with three epic items, you would expect the rest of the items to be the best non epic items available, not in my case. My only other magic items are a number 4 bag of holding, peraipt of wisdom +5 (house rule), quiver of elhonna and a holy symbol of improved turning. I dont have any magical armor, one ring slot open, braciers, no belt, gloves, boots or any other sundry magical items. Pray tell, where is the logic of such items for a character, any character? 2.0 million gp in three epic magical items, and 60,000 gp approx for everything else?
White rabbit 11-02-04, 12:21 AM	It's that no magical armor thing that will gack your character toot sweet. Sell the mantle or trade it in for magical armor and miscellaneous items. Scrolls and potions might be nice as well.