A fellow player is driving me nutts [Archive] - Wizards Community

A fellow player is driving me nutts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Breetai
05-07-06, 01:03 PM Okay let me start off that at first I thought this guy was an awesome roleplayer, with an ability to come up with excellent builds. Then as the campaign progressed every few levels he'd scrap the character for a new one. Identical class, presoanlity ect. slightly different build. Once I realized that each character weather male female or whatever has exactly the same personality, class, ect... and that he was one of the old school Psion only munchkin players he really started getting on my nerves. Not to mention the fact that it's a heroic campaign and he plays only neutral characters with personality traits that are obviously evil. When we are out of character when we mention his character is exibiting evil behavior he try's to justify why i.e. slavery is a good thing.... :eek: ?!? ummm... no.

I spoke with some of the other guys he plays with and they said that in every group or campaign the guy plays with it's the same classes and personality and the reason for swapping characters in and out is that different builds are better at different levels. Then we discover that the DM has trusted his knowlege of Psionics far far too much. He was playing Psionics as if it were 2nd edition in a 3.5 game with no spending cap, full round manefestations were reduced to standard actions, and much more, taking advantage of the DM's faith in his ability to regulate himself. The DM already knows I can't stand the guy and understands my reasoning and agrees with myself and a few of the other players about him. But the DM is still trusting him with justifying ceretain Psionic Powers?!?! I thought he had already proven he cant be allowed to judge anything reguarding his characters.

Since the DM still trusts him I don't know what to do. Anybody got any advice on approaching a DM on this?
WarColonel
05-07-06, 02:58 PM A DM has access (or should) to every character sheet. I know DM's that would keep our sheets between games so that we didn't swap out or min/max things. Take this player's sheet(s), get a Ex. Psi. Book and update it to 3.5. Psionics are often considered overpowered for two reasons: a DM doesn't like the rules because it allows casting of more high-level spells at the sacrafice of many low-levels, or he just never bothered to learn the rules. Make sure your DM learns the rules. A friend who hasn't kept up with the new material after BoVD/BoED allowed the use of a frenzied berserker in a one-shot... And almost cried when he read the rules. A DM should never allow the use of something if he himself doesn't know the rules.

For the alignment issue, we had a grading system. 10 points between good to neutral, neutral to evil, 15 for lawful/neutral/chaotic. Depending on the deed, it would affect your grading. Of course, only sincere goods deeds would cancle out an evil one, and likewise breaking the law just to take a step away from paladin hood. We played that the things you do and say actually do affect your alignment.

Another thing, I can't believe that this PC just keeps scraping out characters for ones that have better stats/abilities. To me, that defeats the purpose of character building. It's a role-playing game. The greatest times I have ever had were purely dialogue and a skill check here and there.

I played one campaign for 3 years with nine friends. Of those nine friends, only three created new characters. People were willing to sit out a week or three just so that their dead PC could be resserected. My own character died four times, and was revived three out of those four (the last, his body was lost in the Abyss).

Sorry this is so long, I just don't see why this guy doesn't go play W.O.W. or E.Q., where alignment is bunk and min/max-ing is normal.
JadeSpider9643
05-07-06, 03:46 PM Now I don't want to start ripping on psionics (not right now anyway), but a DM should not allow them if he's not familiar with them. Goes for anything, new base classes from the Complete books, templates....if the DM isn't familiar with something he shouldn't be allowing it in the campaign.
Durgen Coalhewer
05-07-06, 09:42 PM 1. D&D is just as much about combat as it is role-playing, and just because someone enjoys one more than the other doesn't make the alternative wrong.

2. There's nothing wrong with Psionics other than people's misconceptions of being "broken" and ignorance.

3. I still don't understand why a vast group of role-players (and not all mind you) think they are better than those who enjoy/are good at min-maxing characters. The great thing about D&D is that you can play it however makes you happiest, there is no "right" way.

4. Why don't you go try out for a play or something where min-maxing is "bunk" and assuming another role is normal...

5. I would approach your DM and respectfully bring up the situation again, preferably after a session where he has done something wrong, and have the books available to support your theory that he cheated in some way.
celtredleg
05-07-06, 10:02 PM 1. D&D is just as much about combat as it is role-playing, and just because someone enjoys one more than the other doesn't make the alternative wrong.

2. There's nothing wrong with Psionics other than people's misconceptions of being "broken" and ignorance.

3. I still don't understand why a vast group of role-players (and not all mind you) think they are better than those who enjoy/are good at min-maxing characters. The great thing about D&D is that you can play it however makes you happiest, there is no "right" way.

4. Why don't you go try out for a play or something where min-maxing is "bunk" and assuming another role is normal...

5. I would approach your DM and respectfully bring up the situation again, preferably after a session where he has done something wrong, and have the books available to support your theory that he cheated in some way.

Interesting that your 1st point is in direct opposition to your 4th one?? Or is it that only your alternate style is OK, but serios roleplayers styles are not to be allowed. Same thing with point three, only you are allowed the "right way" and others cant play, just go to a play.

I completely agree with point 5. Not sure why you felt the need to attack RPers.
danielinthewolvesden
05-07-06, 10:55 PM 2. There's nothing wrong with Psionics other than people's misconceptions of being "broken" and ignorance.

Psionics aren't any more "broken" than regular spellcasters, but it is way easier to slip a fast one past an semi-ignorant DM.
Durgen Coalhewer
05-07-06, 11:55 PM Ok, definately agree that it is easier to slip things past a less experienced DM when it comes to psionics, you are correct there, danielinthewolvesden. But note that I was also saying that Psionics are fine.

My advice to the OP still stands.

And for the record I never attacked serious role-players, more power to them, just not to the elitists... good try on reading comprehension though. Also, I didn't even give what style I play with, but again at least you tried celtredleg... and if you didn't pick up that my 4th point was directed at Warcolonel's last comment (whom I have no problem with, just the statement), I'm sorry, next time I'll quote him so there won't be any misunderstandings. I should probably have typed "/sarcastic" before point #4 as well huh?
Nate Jones
05-08-06, 01:00 AM Ok, definately agree that it is easier to slip things past a less experienced DM when it comes to psionics, you are correct there, danielinthewolvesden. But note that I was also saying that Psionics are fine.

My advice to the OP still stands.

And for the record I never attacked serious role-players, more power to them, just not to the elitists... good try on reading comprehension though. Also, I didn't even give what style I play with, but again at least you tried celtredleg... and if you didn't pick up that my 4th point was directed at Warcolonel's last comment (whom I have no problem with, just the statement), I'm sorry, next time I'll quote him so there won't be any misunderstandings. I should probably have typed "/sarcastic" before point #4 as well huh?

Ah, you see Durgen, there is a bit more to reading comprehension than simply interpreting the literal word. While certianly I think no one would disagree that you never stated your preferred gaming style, a lot is implied, however, by the structure of your argument itself.

I believe celtredleg's problem was with your hypocritical statements. So, if I am following you correctly, you first complain about how a "vast group" of roleplayers are wrong for playing in an atmosphere that does not promote min-maxing, but then you turn around and say "there is no right way" to play DnD. Oh, I think I got it...so long as you're not a serious roleplayer, you're playing right And if you're not min/maxing, you shouldn't really be playing DnD. Hmm, forget reading comprehension, how about logic?
Durgen Coalhewer
05-08-06, 01:45 AM You know, you're right, that's exactly what I was saying. When I typed:

The great thing about D&D is that you can play it however makes you happiest, there is no "right" way.

I of course meant to type "My style, which I am not going to name or actually state is the best, is the best." People can infer whatever they would like from my statements, it does not change the intention with which they were written, nor does it justify their stating of what my intended meaning was when they have no means of knowing for sure.

Seriously, when did I ever state that serious roleplaying is wrong, or that min-maxing is the only way to play? My attack was not against roleplaying, but at those individuals who try and force upon others their style of play. And honestly, if it came off as an attack against RPers, I apologize, it was not my intention to do so, I am a big fan of roleplaying.

But hey, at least after dissecting my statements and putting words in my mouth you contributed something helpful towards the OP, oh wait...

Now back to the original poster, another thought is perhaps working out a system with your DM wherein you could somehow signal him/her during a session (without the knowledge of the problematic player, perhaps using a note card?) when the problems you mentioned comes up again so as to bring it to her/his attention immediately.

edited so as not to imply the sex of the DM.
fullmetal80110
05-08-06, 03:36 AM I confronted my GM about the player and the gm lacked the initiave I was looking for so I took it into my own hands. The player was supposidly a lawful good character, but when confronted with any situations the would require him to RP he just killed whatever was there. I was tired of this so I went chaotic evil bard on his ass.
I basically made his character and everyone there after my little *****, he has stopped coming to the local games. :)
Archangel62
05-08-06, 03:49 AM I confronted my GM about the player and the gm lacked the initiave I was looking for so I took it into my own hands. The player was supposidly a lawful good character, but when confronted with any situations the would require him to RP he just killed whatever was there. I was tired of this so I went chaotic evil bard on his ass.
I basically made his character and everyone there after my little *****, he has stopped coming to the local games. :)

I want to know how this worked out, the stories alone would be fun,that and it would show that Bards can kick ass too.
stranger_654
05-08-06, 05:17 AM I would just like to say to the two of three posters who went all "Lets attack each other over something as stupid as implied meaning" There is not need? Why? Who cares? Stick to your own style of playing and just ignored the morons out there who have to force there own opinion and style into others to gain a feeling of security in there own choice. Personally i play a mix, just because its how i like it.
Say what you like, but i admire those who are either min/max or pure roleplayers, at least your one or the other, and they are both great ways to play.
And to those ignorant souls out there...dont hi-jack some guys thread and have a go at each other, if you hate each other THAT much, get yourself a pair of boxing gloves each, organise to meet each other, and kick each other around some. (note...kick each other with your fist)

There we go.... That somehow makes me feel better.
hangedman1984
05-08-06, 02:26 PM Then we discover that the DM has trusted his knowlege of Psionics far far too much. He was playing Psionics as if it were 2nd edition in a 3.5 game with no spending cap, full round manefestations were reduced to standard actions, and much more, taking advantage of the DM's faith in his ability to regulate himself. The DM already knows I can't stand the guy and understands my reasoning and agrees with myself and a few of the other players about him. But the DM is still trusting him with justifying ceretain Psionic Powers?!?! I thought he had already proven he cant be allowed to judge anything reguarding his characters.

Its people like this that give psionics a bad name.
wonlee76
05-08-06, 07:22 PM You know... the min/maxing doesn't bother me. The psionics doesn't really bother me either (except for the case where he is cheating of course). The "same" personality thing doesn't even bother me that much. What bothers me the most is switching PCs to "different" builds because builds gain power at different rates. That just pisses me off.

Its like the player who wants to play a mystic theurge or arcane trickster but knows they are a pain in the butt to play at low levels so bides his time by leveling up a different type of PC and then bam, switches PCs so that he has avoided the "growing pains" of certain builds that are difficult to play at low levels. Or like playing a fighter for the first few levels then switching to a wizard since wizard's are a pain to play at low levels. *shakes his head in dismay*

This is the exact reason why I enforce a -1 level rule when it comes to "new" PCs. There's a price to switching PCs and its lost of a level from your present PC (following rules on Raise Dead/Ress so you're halfway between levels at least). Its a tough price to pay if you keep switching PCs and slowly start lagging behind your buddies falling behind slightly in the power curve. Maybe your DM should implement a -1 level rule for new PCs, no matter what the circumstances. It might cut down on the character switching at least if he knows there's a price to pay.
kelvinaw273
05-09-06, 03:36 PM Just goes to shoe that with players like this one:

1) Know the rules!

2) Do not allow players to change characters for no reason at all - if they make, them, they have to stick with them.

3) Enforce alignment, and make sure verybody knows what alignment means in the DM's world.
WarColonel
05-11-06, 11:43 AM Wow, I stop coming to the threads for a few days and look what happens...

I apologise Durgen Coalhewer if you were in any way offended, but the entire point of this thread is to fix the OP's problem with a min/max player in a campaign that does not support of the PC's play.

I have no problem with min/max'ing if the campaign setting is geared towards that. I have played games where the DM has told all PCs that we were allowed to make our favorite "I wish I could do this" characters, were we point-buyed and used any WotC book we could find. In fact, I have a one-shot coming up where I will be playing a psion, ironically enough. But the thing is, my DM knows the rules by heart and stated we were supposed to be as out of proportion as possiable.

Breetai, listen to kelvinaw273, and have your DM enforce it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Breetai 05-07-06, 01:03 PM	Okay let me start off that at first I thought this guy was an awesome roleplayer, with an ability to come up with excellent builds. Then as the campaign progressed every few levels he'd scrap the character for a new one. Identical class, presoanlity ect. slightly different build. Once I realized that each character weather male female or whatever has exactly the same personality, class, ect... and that he was one of the old school Psion only munchkin players he really started getting on my nerves. Not to mention the fact that it's a heroic campaign and he plays only neutral characters with personality traits that are obviously evil. When we are out of character when we mention his character is exibiting evil behavior he try's to justify why i.e. slavery is a good thing.... :eek: ?!? ummm... no. I spoke with some of the other guys he plays with and they said that in every group or campaign the guy plays with it's the same classes and personality and the reason for swapping characters in and out is that different builds are better at different levels. Then we discover that the DM has trusted his knowlege of Psionics far far too much. He was playing Psionics as if it were 2nd edition in a 3.5 game with no spending cap, full round manefestations were reduced to standard actions, and much more, taking advantage of the DM's faith in his ability to regulate himself. The DM already knows I can't stand the guy and understands my reasoning and agrees with myself and a few of the other players about him. But the DM is still trusting him with justifying ceretain Psionic Powers?!?! I thought he had already proven he cant be allowed to judge anything reguarding his characters. Since the DM still trusts him I don't know what to do. Anybody got any advice on approaching a DM on this?
WarColonel 05-07-06, 02:58 PM	A DM has access (or should) to every character sheet. I know DM's that would keep our sheets between games so that we didn't swap out or min/max things. Take this player's sheet(s), get a Ex. Psi. Book and update it to 3.5. Psionics are often considered overpowered for two reasons: a DM doesn't like the rules because it allows casting of more high-level spells at the sacrafice of many low-levels, or he just never bothered to learn the rules. Make sure your DM learns the rules. A friend who hasn't kept up with the new material after BoVD/BoED allowed the use of a frenzied berserker in a one-shot... And almost cried when he read the rules. A DM should never allow the use of something if he himself doesn't know the rules. For the alignment issue, we had a grading system. 10 points between good to neutral, neutral to evil, 15 for lawful/neutral/chaotic. Depending on the deed, it would affect your grading. Of course, only sincere goods deeds would cancle out an evil one, and likewise breaking the law just to take a step away from paladin hood. We played that the things you do and say actually do affect your alignment. Another thing, I can't believe that this PC just keeps scraping out characters for ones that have better stats/abilities. To me, that defeats the purpose of character building. It's a role-playing game. The greatest times I have ever had were purely dialogue and a skill check here and there. I played one campaign for 3 years with nine friends. Of those nine friends, only three created new characters. People were willing to sit out a week or three just so that their dead PC could be resserected. My own character died four times, and was revived three out of those four (the last, his body was lost in the Abyss). Sorry this is so long, I just don't see why this guy doesn't go play W.O.W. or E.Q., where alignment is bunk and min/max-ing is normal.
JadeSpider9643 05-07-06, 03:46 PM	Now I don't want to start ripping on psionics (not right now anyway), but a DM should not allow them if he's not familiar with them. Goes for anything, new base classes from the Complete books, templates....if the DM isn't familiar with something he shouldn't be allowing it in the campaign.
Durgen Coalhewer 05-07-06, 09:42 PM	1. D&D is just as much about combat as it is role-playing, and just because someone enjoys one more than the other doesn't make the alternative wrong. 2. There's nothing wrong with Psionics other than people's misconceptions of being "broken" and ignorance. 3. I still don't understand why a vast group of role-players (and not all mind you) think they are better than those who enjoy/are good at min-maxing characters. The great thing about D&D is that you can play it however makes you happiest, there is no "right" way. 4. Why don't you go try out for a play or something where min-maxing is "bunk" and assuming another role is normal... 5. I would approach your DM and respectfully bring up the situation again, preferably after a session where he has done something wrong, and have the books available to support your theory that he cheated in some way.
celtredleg 05-07-06, 10:02 PM	1. D&D is just as much about combat as it is role-playing, and just because someone enjoys one more than the other doesn't make the alternative wrong. 2. There's nothing wrong with Psionics other than people's misconceptions of being "broken" and ignorance. 3. I still don't understand why a vast group of role-players (and not all mind you) think they are better than those who enjoy/are good at min-maxing characters. The great thing about D&D is that you can play it however makes you happiest, there is no "right" way. 4. Why don't you go try out for a play or something where min-maxing is "bunk" and assuming another role is normal... 5. I would approach your DM and respectfully bring up the situation again, preferably after a session where he has done something wrong, and have the books available to support your theory that he cheated in some way. Interesting that your 1st point is in direct opposition to your 4th one?? Or is it that only your alternate style is OK, but serios roleplayers styles are not to be allowed. Same thing with point three, only you are allowed the "right way" and others cant play, just go to a play. I completely agree with point 5. Not sure why you felt the need to attack RPers.
danielinthewolvesden 05-07-06, 10:55 PM	2. There's nothing wrong with Psionics other than people's misconceptions of being "broken" and ignorance. Psionics aren't any more "broken" than regular spellcasters, but it is way easier to slip a fast one past an semi-ignorant DM.
Durgen Coalhewer 05-07-06, 11:55 PM	Ok, definately agree that it is easier to slip things past a less experienced DM when it comes to psionics, you are correct there, danielinthewolvesden. But note that I was also saying that Psionics are fine. My advice to the OP still stands. And for the record I never attacked serious role-players, more power to them, just not to the elitists... good try on reading comprehension though. Also, I didn't even give what style I play with, but again at least you tried celtredleg... and if you didn't pick up that my 4th point was directed at Warcolonel's last comment (whom I have no problem with, just the statement), I'm sorry, next time I'll quote him so there won't be any misunderstandings. I should probably have typed "/sarcastic" before point #4 as well huh?
Nate Jones 05-08-06, 01:00 AM	Ok, definately agree that it is easier to slip things past a less experienced DM when it comes to psionics, you are correct there, danielinthewolvesden. But note that I was also saying that Psionics are fine. My advice to the OP still stands. And for the record I never attacked serious role-players, more power to them, just not to the elitists... good try on reading comprehension though. Also, I didn't even give what style I play with, but again at least you tried celtredleg... and if you didn't pick up that my 4th point was directed at Warcolonel's last comment (whom I have no problem with, just the statement), I'm sorry, next time I'll quote him so there won't be any misunderstandings. I should probably have typed "/sarcastic" before point #4 as well huh? Ah, you see Durgen, there is a bit more to reading comprehension than simply interpreting the literal word. While certianly I think no one would disagree that you never stated your preferred gaming style, a lot is implied, however, by the structure of your argument itself. I believe celtredleg's problem was with your hypocritical statements. So, if I am following you correctly, you first complain about how a "vast group" of roleplayers are wrong for playing in an atmosphere that does not promote min-maxing, but then you turn around and say "there is no right way" to play DnD. Oh, I think I got it...so long as you're not a serious roleplayer, you're playing right And if you're not min/maxing, you shouldn't really be playing DnD. Hmm, forget reading comprehension, how about logic?
Durgen Coalhewer 05-08-06, 01:45 AM	You know, you're right, that's exactly what I was saying. When I typed: The great thing about D&D is that you can play it however makes you happiest, there is no "right" way. I of course meant to type "My style, which I am not going to name or actually state is the best, is the best." People can infer whatever they would like from my statements, it does not change the intention with which they were written, nor does it justify their stating of what my intended meaning was when they have no means of knowing for sure. Seriously, when did I ever state that serious roleplaying is wrong, or that min-maxing is the only way to play? My attack was not against roleplaying, but at those individuals who try and force upon others their style of play. And honestly, if it came off as an attack against RPers, I apologize, it was not my intention to do so, I am a big fan of roleplaying. But hey, at least after dissecting my statements and putting words in my mouth you contributed something helpful towards the OP, oh wait... Now back to the original poster, another thought is perhaps working out a system with your DM wherein you could somehow signal him/her during a session (without the knowledge of the problematic player, perhaps using a note card?) when the problems you mentioned comes up again so as to bring it to her/his attention immediately. edited so as not to imply the sex of the DM.
fullmetal80110 05-08-06, 03:36 AM	I confronted my GM about the player and the gm lacked the initiave I was looking for so I took it into my own hands. The player was supposidly a lawful good character, but when confronted with any situations the would require him to RP he just killed whatever was there. I was tired of this so I went chaotic evil bard on his ass. I basically made his character and everyone there after my little *****, he has stopped coming to the local games. :)
Archangel62 05-08-06, 03:49 AM	I confronted my GM about the player and the gm lacked the initiave I was looking for so I took it into my own hands. The player was supposidly a lawful good character, but when confronted with any situations the would require him to RP he just killed whatever was there. I was tired of this so I went chaotic evil bard on his ass. I basically made his character and everyone there after my little *****, he has stopped coming to the local games. :) I want to know how this worked out, the stories alone would be fun,that and it would show that Bards can kick ass too.
stranger_654 05-08-06, 05:17 AM	I would just like to say to the two of three posters who went all "Lets attack each other over something as stupid as implied meaning" There is not need? Why? Who cares? Stick to your own style of playing and just ignored the morons out there who have to force there own opinion and style into others to gain a feeling of security in there own choice. Personally i play a mix, just because its how i like it. Say what you like, but i admire those who are either min/max or pure roleplayers, at least your one or the other, and they are both great ways to play. And to those ignorant souls out there...dont hi-jack some guys thread and have a go at each other, if you hate each other THAT much, get yourself a pair of boxing gloves each, organise to meet each other, and kick each other around some. (note...kick each other with your fist) There we go.... That somehow makes me feel better.
hangedman1984 05-08-06, 02:26 PM	Then we discover that the DM has trusted his knowlege of Psionics far far too much. He was playing Psionics as if it were 2nd edition in a 3.5 game with no spending cap, full round manefestations were reduced to standard actions, and much more, taking advantage of the DM's faith in his ability to regulate himself. The DM already knows I can't stand the guy and understands my reasoning and agrees with myself and a few of the other players about him. But the DM is still trusting him with justifying ceretain Psionic Powers?!?! I thought he had already proven he cant be allowed to judge anything reguarding his characters. Its people like this that give psionics a bad name.
wonlee76 05-08-06, 07:22 PM	You know... the min/maxing doesn't bother me. The psionics doesn't really bother me either (except for the case where he is cheating of course). The "same" personality thing doesn't even bother me that much. What bothers me the most is switching PCs to "different" builds because builds gain power at different rates. That just pisses me off. Its like the player who wants to play a mystic theurge or arcane trickster but knows they are a pain in the butt to play at low levels so bides his time by leveling up a different type of PC and then bam, switches PCs so that he has avoided the "growing pains" of certain builds that are difficult to play at low levels. Or like playing a fighter for the first few levels then switching to a wizard since wizard's are a pain to play at low levels. shakes his head in dismay This is the exact reason why I enforce a -1 level rule when it comes to "new" PCs. There's a price to switching PCs and its lost of a level from your present PC (following rules on Raise Dead/Ress so you're halfway between levels at least). Its a tough price to pay if you keep switching PCs and slowly start lagging behind your buddies falling behind slightly in the power curve. Maybe your DM should implement a -1 level rule for new PCs, no matter what the circumstances. It might cut down on the character switching at least if he knows there's a price to pay.
kelvinaw273 05-09-06, 03:36 PM	Just goes to shoe that with players like this one: 1) Know the rules! 2) Do not allow players to change characters for no reason at all - if they make, them, they have to stick with them. 3) Enforce alignment, and make sure verybody knows what alignment means in the DM's world.
WarColonel 05-11-06, 11:43 AM	Wow, I stop coming to the threads for a few days and look what happens... I apologise Durgen Coalhewer if you were in any way offended, but the entire point of this thread is to fix the OP's problem with a min/max player in a campaign that does not support of the PC's play. I have no problem with min/max'ing if the campaign setting is geared towards that. I have played games where the DM has told all PCs that we were allowed to make our favorite "I wish I could do this" characters, were we point-buyed and used any WotC book we could find. In fact, I have a one-shot coming up where I will be playing a psion, ironically enough. But the thing is, my DM knows the rules by heart and stated we were supposed to be as out of proportion as possiable. Breetai, listen to kelvinaw273, and have your DM enforce it.