Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JadeFox 01-30-06, 02:49 PM	An interesting situation has devloped in our game recently.... We have five PC's: Dirk the Mighty, a Kobold Wizard-Illusionist (CG) Grunk, a Half-orc Barbarian (CG) Skick, a Tiefling Rogue (CN) Ivanson (or Iiranson, or something like that), a Human Cleric (NG) And a gnome bard (CN) who hasn't quite decided on his charachters name yet. Dirk is my charachter. He is, by personality, supposed to be a little over the top. Very outspoken, if nothing else. The cleric, on the other hand, is reserved, conservative, and somewhat intolerant of others. A very "It's evil, kill it. There are no shades of grey." type cleric. He's also not a fan of non-good races, even if the individual isn't evil. And so, at one point in the adventure, the cleric fell asleep (IC) during and NPC's speach. The speach was, admittantly, a bit long winded, but it was also very important information that the cleric needed to know, so Dirk gave him a thump upside the head with his shamen staff to wake up him. The cleric proceeded to draw his +2 heavy mace and sundered Dirks staff, snapping it like a toothpick. Dirk was, to be blunt, less then pleased with the distruction of his primary weapon that happened to be a family heriloom to boot. One of Dirk's traits is a very "eye for an eye" method of reasoning, so since his primary weapon had been sundered by this jerk of a cleric, he cast hold person on him (the cleric failed his save), took the clerics mace to use as a replacement for his distroyed staff, and told the cleric that he was frankly a jerk (again, this is all IC). With that, he considered the matter dropped. The cleric didn't see to bring it up again, although he certantly wasn't happy about it. Later on in that perticiular adventure, we were resting for the night when a pack of mutant wolves decended upon us. Dirk was very low on spells from the battle that day, and completly out of defensive spells, so he had to be carefull to not get engaged in melee, and to make every shot count. Which would have been easy enough, had not the cleric, at a critical point in the battle, shoved me into a group of wolves that were threatening to attack him. Swift assistance from Grunk, combined with some very poor rolls on the wolves part, saved my charachter from death. Dirk was very, very ****** at the cleric, but realized he was in no condition to chastize him about his behavior (bleeding, needs healing and rest, almost toally out of spells, etc), and so he set off to do his after-battle looting. Among the normal stuff, he decided to take one of the mutant wolves skulls as something to tip his new staff. (skulls, sigils, or something like that are traditional for kobols shamens after all). As Dirk got something to use as a staff to tip, however, the cleric shouted that Dirk got no staff because he took his mace, and proceeded to try to sunder Dirks stick. When that failed, the cleric took a swing at Dirk (missing). At that point, the stituation fell apart, Skick and Grung, who had always gotten along with Dirk, rushed to subdue the cleric. The bard on the other hand, automaticly reasoned that the cleric of pelor must be in the right, and rushed to help him. A very tense battle followed, in which either side could have won at any moment, but ultimatly, the wizard rogue and barbarian started to gain the upper hand. Before the battle could be finished however, a rider, a warden of the land we were in, approached, attracted by the sound of magic and battle. Natually, when he saw a cleric of pelor and a bard fighting a kobold, tie'fling, and orc-spawn he assumed Dirk's side was evil, but as he listened to our explination, he decided that he was going to reserve judgement for now and take us back to the local castle. All of us being badly injured and out of spells, we were in no condition to refuse. The sessioni ended there. This leads to a number of problems....... 1) What do I do about the cleric and bard? The only permenant solution to this seems to be "kill them in their sleep" and that would be both completly out of charachter, and unfair to their players. 2) How am I going to defend myself? While "being kobolds, tie'flings, and orc-spawn" isn't a crime per-se, it is pretty daming, espically when the person speaking against you is a cleric of pelor. 3) This cleric isn't acting like a cleric, but the DM has ruled that "intolerant" is not sufficent grounds for him to loose his clerical powers. There is a very serious problem in a group when 3 of it's members are afraid the "cure" spell their cleric is casting on them might be inflict.
Radijs 01-30-06, 03:11 PM	In court, demand a zone of truth. Even if you don't get it it will show that you do not have anything to hide. From there on stick to the truth and be as pleasant as you can be. Be smart though. And if you have to ask questions, ask only the questions to which you already know what the awnser's going to be. How to deal with the cleric: Ask him to leave the party (IC of course you've got no gripe with the player). After all if you don't trust him with your life anymore there's no reason to put your life in his hands anymore. You already said that your character is more outspoken then the cleric. You can probably sway the rest of the party to follow your advice. As for the bard... Well from what you've told me I'd say he only made an error in judgement when choosing sides. Unless its the same story that you don't trust the bard anymore then he should be forced to leave too.
Thelandrach 01-30-06, 03:32 PM	First of all, this depends on how this all started: GM: The cleric has fallen asleep. You: I nudge him to wake him up. GM: Okay, you smack him in the head with your staff. Cleric of FREAKING PELOR: RARRGH! or GM: The cleric has fallen asleep. You: I smack him in the head with my staff to wake him up. Cleric of FREAKING PELOR: RARRGH! If you said you bopped him in the head with your staff, You Started It. He may have overreacted, but he's a cleric of the God of Brawling and he's been awoken by getting smacked in the head. A certain amount of ultra-violence is called for in that situation. If you just said you wanted to wake him up and the GM decided that you attacked a PC, you have an issue or two to discuss with your GM. Like, who, exactly, gets to make decisions for your character. Past that, surviving the trial: "Honorable Lord Muckety-muck, we're just a bunch of chaotic adventurers fighting over the spoils of a battle, said spoils being the skull of a ravening wolf which we killed (at great risk to life and limb, evidenced by these huge, bloody tears in my garment), thus rendering your lands safer (oh, no, sir, no thanks needed; all part of our civic duty, you know)... We'd just love to be on our way and out of your hair. Perhaps there are more wolves out there in the hills which we can dispense with, thus ensuring profits for the shepherds in the region." As for IC behavior with your fellow characters: You're chaotic, not stupid. If you can't trust this cleric, get rid of him or leave the party. Player to Player: After all the above has been dealt with, ask the other player if there's a problem. Deal with it.
Millennium 01-30-06, 03:42 PM	I thought Kord was the God of Brawling, not Pelor.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-30-06, 03:44 PM	I thought Kord was the God of Brawling, not Pelor. You thought right, and beat me to it. Other than that, Thelandrach seems to have his head on straight with his ideas, though.
JadeFox 01-30-06, 03:55 PM	In court, demand a zone of truth. Even if you don't get it it will show that you do not have anything to hide. From there on stick to the truth and be as pleasant as you can be. Be smart though. And if you have to ask questions, ask only the questions to which you already know what the awnser's going to be. Good advice, but if I don't get the zone of truth, how do I know the cleric won't simply lie? I don't allready know the answer to any questions if the witness can say whatever he wants. And there arn't exactly any unbaised witnesses in this case.... As for the bard... Well from what you've told me I'd say he only made an error in judgement when choosing sides. Unless its the same story that you don't trust the bard anymore then he should be forced to leave too. The bard is a terminal coward, he switched sides when it looked like we were gaining the upper hand. I don't trust him for that reason, but he's not a threat. First of all, this depends on how this all started: GM: The cleric has fallen asleep. You: I nudge him to wake him up. GM: Okay, you smack him in the head with your staff. Cleric of FREAKING PELOR: RARRGH! or GM: The cleric has fallen asleep. You: I smack him in the head with my staff to wake him up. Cleric of FREAKING PELOR: RARRGH! If you said you bopped him in the head with your staff, You Started It. He may have overreacted, but he's a cleric of the God of Brawling and he's been awoken by getting smacked in the head. A certain amount of ultra-violence is called for in that situation. It happened the way I phrased it, I said I gave him a "thump" on the head. That didn't seem so bad because a thump is hardly a smack, and given that I have a -4 STR modifier and am holding a small size staff, I'm bascily just tapping him with a twig. Past that, surviving the trial: "Honorable Lord Muckety-muck, we're just a bunch of chaotic adventurers fighting over the spoils of a battle, said spoils being the skull of a ravening wolf which we killed (at great risk to life and limb, evidenced by these huge, bloody tears in my garment), thus rendering your lands safer (oh, no, sir, no thanks needed; all part of our civic duty, you know)... We'd just love to be on our way and out of your hair. Perhaps there are more wolves out there in the hills which we can dispense with, thus ensuring profits for the shepherds in the region." As for IC behavior with your fellow characters: You're chaotic, not stupid. If you can't trust this cleric, get rid of him or leave the party. Player to Player: After all the above has been dealt with, ask the other player if there's a problem. Deal with it. Well, as the DM has ruled his charachter is not unacceptable, if I say "I want you to leave the group." and he says "No." There's not much I can do beyond that. :( I thought Kord was the God of Brawling, not Pelor. Right, Pelor is a sun-god of mercy and healing.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-30-06, 04:03 PM	Good advice, but if I don't get the zone of truth, how do I know the cleric won't simply lie? Zone of Truth is a spell, people in the area who fail their saving throws cannot speak any deliberate, intentional lies.
Araciel 01-30-06, 04:27 PM	act like a party...don't smack, thump, bite, kick or do anything that requires an attack roll against someone you consider a healing machine..you can wake someone without doing something violent, no matter how weak your character is, everyone does at least one point of damage, which to a normal person would be 25% of their hp.. and a cleric isn't always an avatar of the god they follow, especially in the world of greyhawk. clerics are, contrary to what is popular opinion it would seem, people too, not walking potion bottles with maces.
pres_man 01-30-06, 04:29 PM	Being "intolerant" is not enough for him to loss his powers, but attacking a party member should be, especially for a god whose domains are: good, healing and light. For trying to attack you (was he trying to do non-lethal damage or not?) that sounds like a pretty big violation and he probably shouldn't be able to cast any spells until he atones (or converts :devil: ). Though it should be noted your character has not acted in a good fashion either, striking a fellow party member because you think he should be paying attention, when you could have gotten the info yourself. And then casting spells on the other person to take a possession, instead of demanding the person replace your item, is also pretty non-good and pretty stupid to do to a party member, especially a healer. Was your staff magical at all or was it merely sentimental? If it was not of equal value to his mace, then you should return his mace to him, tell him that things got out of hand and you would like to put it all behind everyone. If he decides not to take the mature route and even worse lies about the encounter, which could potentially put you and other companions' lives in danger from the authorities, then make a point of pointing out the actual acts that would effect his ability to maintain his following to Pelor (destroying private property for minor slights, putting allies in harms way to save himself (or to try to get them killed), actively attacking allies, and lying about their allies). If your DM still does not do anything at that point, well there is a nice blue book you might want to purchase, it is called the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG). With this you can take over the role of the DM and leave this fool's game, and perhaps take the other two players with you.
Thelandrach 01-30-06, 04:30 PM	Right, Pelor is a sun-god of mercy and healing. Whoa. You can understand why I confused the two, given the way the cleric's being played...
JadeFox 01-30-06, 04:58 PM	Zone of Truth is a spell, people in the area who fail their saving throws cannot speak any deliberate, intentional lies. Right, that's my point, what if I don't get the spell? act like a party...don't smack, thump, bite, kick or do anything that requires an attack roll against someone you consider a healing machine..you can wake someone without doing something violent, no matter how weak your character is, everyone does at least one point of damage, which to a normal person would be 25% of their hp.. and a cleric isn't always an avatar of the god they follow, especially in the world of greyhawk. clerics are, contrary to what is popular opinion it would seem, people too, not walking potion bottles with maces. Good advice in general but.....how do I apply it to this? Being "intolerant" is not enough for him to loss his powers, but attacking a party member should be, especially for a god whose domains are: good, healing and light. For trying to attack you (was he trying to do non-lethal damage or not?) that sounds like a pretty big violation and he probably shouldn't be able to cast any spells until he atones (or converts ). Lethal. I'll mention this to the DM, thanks. :) Though it should be noted your character has not acted in a good fashion either, striking a fellow party member because you think he should be paying attention, when you could have gotten the info yourself. And then casting spells on the other person to take a possession, instead of demanding the person replace your item, is also pretty non-good and pretty stupid to do to a party member, especially a healer. No damage was rolled, subdual or otherwise. It was a stick wielded by a creature with 6 STR, and it was only a "thump" in any case. I concede that simply demanding he replace the weapon might have been wiser, but I was just RP'ing my charachter who was, understandably, ****** off. CG dosn't make him a saint. Was your staff magical at all or was it merely sentimental? If it was not of equal value to his mace, then you should return his mace to him, tell him that things got out of hand and you would like to put it all behind everyone. Sentimental value. I grant that taking it to make a point and then returning it, becaue it is much more valuable then the staff, would have been a good idea at first. But at this point, I can't do that as a matter of honor. He attempted to kill me, I can't bow down to his requests after that. (charachters code of behavior, and common sense) If he decides not to take the mature route and even worse lies about the encounter, which could potentially put you and other companions' lives in danger from the authorities, then make a point of pointing out the actual acts that would effect his ability to maintain his following to Pelor (destroying private property for minor slights, putting allies in harms way to save himself (or to try to get them killed), actively attacking allies, and lying about their allies). If your DM still does not do anything at that point, well there is a nice blue book you might want to purchase, it is called the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG). With this you can take over the role of the DM and leave this fool's game, and perhaps take the other two players with you. He he, thanks. :P
Radijs 01-30-06, 05:32 PM	If you don't get the spell, too bad. At least you've shown honorable intent towards the judge/judicator. And if the cleric decides to stay you can convince the other party members to ditch him in the next town. When you're staying in an inn pay some extra so the cleric can get a private room. Tell him its a way of 'apologizing' for what you did earlier. Then sneak out in the middle of the night.
pres_man 01-30-06, 06:20 PM	No damage was rolled, subdual or otherwise. It was a stick wielded by a creature with 6 STR, and it was only a "thump" in any case. This is irrelevant, it was extremely rude. Let me compare it to a RL situation. A person I game with had a nerf dart gun and thought it would be cool to shoot another player when they came back to the room. The person sat down and then was shot in the chest. Now it did no "damage" to the person who was shot, but does that mean the person who was shot had no "right" to be upset about it. Of course they did. I was proud that they did not go off on the other person but instead took a deep breath and got back to the game, basically brushing off the childish behaviour. These was an extremely mature reaction, but that does not mean the immature player's actions were "ok", they were not and I may have to speak to them at some point. I concede that simply demanding he replace the weapon might have been wiser, but I was just RP'ing my charachter who was, understandably, ****** off. CG dosn't make him a saint. I agree, he doesn't have to be a saint, but after he has had a time to cool down, he might realize his behaviour was inappropriate and he was just as responsible for his staff getting broke as the guy who did the breaking. As such, since he initiated the strife, he could be the one to apologize. This isn't "lawful" or "good" or "evil" or "chaotic", it is smart when dealing with other people. Sentimental value. I grant that taking it to make a point and then returning it, becaue it is much more valuable then the staff, would have been a good idea at first. But at this point, I can't do that as a matter of honor. He attempted to kill me, I can't bow down to his requests after that. (charachters code of behavior, and common sense) No offense, but this is a very simple minded view of role playing. You are in a game, roleplaying should never, ever, lead to the destruction of the game, merely because a player feels like they have to act like an arse because it is "in character". You the player, decided your character would bump his character on the head, then you the player decided that your character would cast a spell on his and take his character's weapon. Now you the player can decide that your character could apologize and hold out the fig leaf (or in this case the heavy mace). If the other player decides to stay hostile towards your character, and lets be truthful, these are players deciding that their characters should act like arses to each other. Then at least you have made the attempt to rebuild the bridge.
Vaelan 01-30-06, 06:48 PM	This is irrelevant, it was extremely rude. Let me compare it to a RL situation. Your comparison is irrelevant. Several key issues are quite different. Further, the entire comparison tells me that you really shouldn't be talking about maturity. Anyone who considers not "going off" when playfully shot with a toy gun an act of extreme maturity has some pretty twisted views of maturity. I also find it humorous how you're equating an attack on one's character to an attack on one's person. It is very telling. No offense, but this is a very simple minded view of role playing. You are in a game, roleplaying should never, ever, lead to the destruction of the game, merely because a player feels like they have to act like an arse because it is "in character". Once again, you really don't have any business commenting on this. You don't know if their behavior destroyed the game. You don't have the slightest idea how the players themselves feel about the situation and thus you are in no position to judge that their roleplaying has destroyed the game. I would suggest leaving the Cleric at the curb as soon as possible. If this is typical behavior of the Cleric's player, leave the player at the curb as well.
pres_man 01-30-06, 07:53 PM	Anyone who considers not "going off" when playfully shot with a toy gun an act of extreme maturity has some pretty twisted views of maturity. Let me clarify the situation since it you don't seem to grasp it. A male player waited for a female player, who had done nothing to "egg" on the male player, to come back to the room. When she sat down, he shot her in the chest area with the "nerf" gun. Despite its name it actual had quite a powerful shot, it was clear from her initial facial expression that it indeed stung, it did no permanent damage to her, but it was not pleasant. She could have started yelling at him, and she would have been totally within her right to do so. She choose not to react in that manner because she knew it would total ruin the rest of the gaming night, she put the needs of the group ahead of her own desire to react to the idiot. That is maturity in my book, if you don't think that is a mature reaction, then we will have to differ. I also find it humorous how you're equating an attack on one's character to an attack on one's person. It is very telling. The fact is that many people spend time making their characters and choose to play in a group game instead of playing in a versus game, please feel free to go play diablo if that is what you want to do. Yet most players have no interest in playing in a player versus player game, thus an attack on their character is actually an attack on their enjoyment of the game. Because now they have to worry, "Is the butthead going to coup-de-grace my character when they go to sleep. I have to save my spells/hit points in case I have to fight them, they will probably wait till after a battle when I'm weakened." The fact is attacking other player's character with this being the set policy for the game (gladiator games for example) is a very immature action to many people. Once again, you really don't have any business commenting on this. You don't know if their behavior destroyed the game. You don't have the slightest idea how the players themselves feel about the situation and thus you are in no position to judge that their roleplaying has destroyed the game. Well excuse me Mr. Gets-To-Decide-Who-Gets-to-Comment. Frankly the comments I made are supported by others. For those OoTS fans, here is a link to Rich Burlew's website where he discusses this issue of people playing in character to the point of ruining the game (under: Decide to React Differently, about 2/3 of the way down). And the original poster did say he couldn't give the item back and apologize because it wasn't "in-character", so my comment was relevant to the discussion. http://www.giantitp.com/frm0007.html
Dei 01-30-06, 08:53 PM	Pres_man, I really feel you're over reacting to this but nonetheless, your point is utterly irrelivant except to reinforce Jadefox's character's outrage. As no damage was rolled his character quiet literally did just tap this cleric who at level 7 is probably pretty tanked. If he's following the general ethos of Pelor, which a cleric, no matter how loosely they follow their God must do, he would have contained his anger and been "mature" as you said your player had done. Instead, he goes off on one and shatters something that he doubtless knew IC was something extremely dear to the kobold in a clear violation of Pelor's merciful nature. Let's not even get started on how badly he violated it by pushing the kobold into the wolves, by this point admitadely the kobold had performed actions that required an IC reaction but the point stands that this cleric is acting more like a barbarian of Kord than a Cleric of a God reknowned for his capacity to forgive and nurture. As for the up-coming trial, as your character is very outspoken I'd actually try and turn the tables on the cleric and use the lawful stint of the court against him. Firstly, ask for the zone of truth, whether or not you get it start quick fire accusing him of variously, destroying your property without offering compensation, endangering your life (throwing to wolves, which you should add you were fighting in order to make the kingdom a safer place), attacking you and the other party members without just cause, etc, etc. Don't give him time to rally as you talk to the head of the court describing how events went and adding an accusation with each new part of the story. A sob story about how your character has always striven to show his good nature in the face of persecution such as that bestowed on him by the cleric couldn't hurt either. Good luck, and I agree with the others, dump the psycho cleric from the group, if your DM's even halfway fair he'll have lost his powers shortly anyhow. Peace out
JadeFox 01-30-06, 09:31 PM	Pres_man, I really feel you're over reacting to this but nonetheless, your point is utterly irrelivant except to reinforce Jadefox's character's outrage. As no damage was rolled his character quiet literally did just tap this cleric who at level 7 is probably pretty tanked. If he's following the general ethos of Pelor, which a cleric, no matter how loosely they follow their God must do, he would have contained his anger and been "mature" as you said your player had done. Quite so, had the cleric said Dirk was a jerk for giving him that "tap", he would have been entirly within his rights. Actually shattering the weapon with a heavy mace was what started everything after that. Instead, he goes off on one and shatters something that he doubtless knew IC was something extremely dear to the kobold in a clear violation of Pelor's merciful nature. Let's not even get started on how badly he violated it by pushing the kobold into the wolves, by this point admitadely the kobold had performed actions that required an IC reaction but the point stands that this cleric is acting more like a barbarian of Kord than a Cleric of a God reknowned for his capacity to forgive and nurture. He was not aware IC of the staffs sentimental value, but shattering it was still out of line. To use pres_man's example, it would be like if that female player took the dart gun, threw it in front of her car, and crushed it under the wheels. Good luck, and I agree with the others, dump the psycho cleric from the group, if your DM's even halfway fair he'll have lost his powers shortly anyhow. Peace out Thanks. :D
Secrets Untold 01-30-06, 09:34 PM	Peace out Run for your lives! It's a hippy! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG!
Ashok_Lal 01-30-06, 10:34 PM	I think we have missed a lot of back story. My guess is that these two players have a problem with each other long before this incident. Instead of the players working it out for themselves thay have landed it in the lap of there charicters. The other players are now draged into the fray and now the whole game is at risk. So jade fox work it out with the cleric player or maybe you should both leave the game so the rest of the party can get on and play like a team. PC's sorting out personal problems just wont work
pres_man 01-30-06, 10:39 PM	Quite so, had the cleric said Dirk was a jerk for giving him that "tap", he would have been entirly within his rights. Actually shattering the weapon with a heavy mace was what started everything after that. "...what started everything after that." I think this is the key issue, you see this as the defining point, where the cleric may see the "knock on the head" as the defining point. I am in no way saying the cleric acted correctly, in fact I would argue that he acted in a way unbecoming of a cleric of Pelor. Now a cleric of St. Cuthbert, I could see doing it, but not a cleric a Pelor. His other actions clearly show that the DM needs to rein in this player's actions. Having said that, I still think that it would be best for everybody in the group for you to be the "bigger man" and give him his mace back and say that you let things spiral out of control and you have no desire to come to blows with him, and you would like the whole situation to be dropped and let go. I would also tell this to DM before you talk to the player about it, and tell the DM that you think perhaps the player is slipping, point out the issues I stated in post #9 and that you are going to try to bring the group back together, but you will need the DM's help if the other player won't drop it. Let's face it the reason why the guy showed up and dragged you off to the castle was because the party was about to implode and the DM tried to give everybody some cool off time. If you deal with the inter-party issue, the castle situation will take care of itself. He was not aware IC of the staffs sentimental value, but shattering it was still out of line. I totally agree, his behaviour was out of line, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour either. Be the "bigger man", apologize and give it back, even if you don't think you did anything wrong. The fact is he took it "wrong" (whether by nature or by choice) and over-reacted. If you value this group then a little humility could go a long way to restoring the viability of the group. It as makes it much easier to get this character and/or player ejected if he doesn't drop the issue, because you are making it clear that you can be reasonable while he can't be. By the way, why didn't you just have cast mending on the quarterstaff? Or if that didn't work, find someone to cast shape wood or fabricate or something? Surely there was a magical way to repair it. If there is a way to magically repair it but you have to pay a non-party member to do it (and the cost isn't unreasonable, DM:"Sorry you need to use wish on it."), you might suggest that in exchange for returning his mace to him, he has to agree to pay for the restoration of your staff. And that you are willing to take his word that he will make good on this agreement. Good luck.
Grier 01-30-06, 11:39 PM	I agree with the posters that suggest you be the "bigger man." You wouldn't believe how disarming it is to have the person you're angry with, who you only see as being a cruel and insensitive jerk, come and totally debase himself and ask forgiveness. What's he going to say then? If he says or does anything other than accept, he will look like a real jerk and idiot in the other player's eyes. The combination of a disarming apology and peer pressure works wonders. :D In addition, I also second the "talk with the DM" plan. The DM needs to have some idea of what you're planning, so he can respond accordingly. Trust me on this point. There is no such thing as too much planning when you're the DM., and you need at least some idea of what the players want to do to plan accordingly. If you talk to the DM, he can arrange for a zone of truth spell, a mending spell, or at the very least a good description of the apology. "The kobold approaches you with a look of pure regret and sadness..."
TheDragonmaster 01-31-06, 04:30 AM	I totally agree with anyone that have said that you should: a) Talk to the DM about the Cleric-of-Pelor behaviour of destroying an allies property (the staff incident), putting an ally at risk just for the sake of injuring him (the wolf incident), outright attacking an ally (the after-wolf incident) and eventually, if he lies at the court, that too. b) If the court couldn't present to you any way of getting a Zone of Truth spell cast, you could ask your fellow cleric to do it (provided that he is of a sufficient level (3)). Any character with a decent spellcraft modifier (the DC is 17) could identify the spell being cast, probably you and the bard (the bard at least i hope), and maybe anyone in the court. If the cleric decides not to cast the spell, but to fake it, and your spellcraft check fails, show that to everyone in the court by claiming that bananas are blue and that you are really a golden protector (celestial half gold dragon lammassu). c) If you get away from both prison and death, and still hold spite against the Cleric, do the give-him-a-room-at-the-inn-for-himself-as-a-favour trick then in the night get the thiefling rogue to sneak inside and leave the mace there, and then sovereign glue his door shut. That kind of - non-lethal mind you - prank would give you an enormous XP award in my game... then have the Player of the Cleric, obviously annoyed, but hopefully not angry at you, create a new Cleric for another good deity (Bahamut perhaps), and let your party show severe paranoia when meeting the followers of Pelor in the future. That was a) what I would have done, and b) my two coppers :twocents:
Thelandrach 01-31-06, 09:50 AM	Now you the player can decide that your character could apologize and hold out the fig leaf (or in this case the heavy mace). I think you meant "olive branch." "Fig Leaf" is an entirely different biblical reference.
pres_man 01-31-06, 10:23 AM	I think you meant "olive branch." "Fig Leaf" is an entirely different biblical reference. :doh: Yeah I'm an idiot.
JadeFox 01-31-06, 11:28 AM	I would also tell this to DM before you talk to the player about it, and tell the DM that you think perhaps the player is slipping, point out the issues I stated in post #9 and that you are going to try to bring the group back together, but you will need the DM's help if the other player won't drop it. Let's face it the reason why the guy showed up and dragged you off to the castle was because the party was about to implode and the DM tried to give everybody some cool off time. If you deal with the inter-party issue, the castle situation will take care of itself. Probably. Should the other player be there when I talk to the DM? So we can work all this out? I totally agree, his behaviour was out of line, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour either. Be the "bigger man", apologize and give it back, even if you don't think you did anything wrong. The fact is he took it "wrong" (whether by nature or by choice) and over-reacted. If you value this group then a little humility could go a long way to restoring the viability of the group. It as makes it much easier to get this character and/or player ejected if he doesn't drop the issue, because you are making it clear that you can be reasonable while he can't be. By the way, why didn't you just have cast mending on the quarterstaff? Or if that didn't work, find someone to cast shape wood or fabricate or something? Surely there was a magical way to repair it. If there is a way to magically repair it but you have to pay a non-party member to do it (and the cost isn't unreasonable, DM:"Sorry you need to use wish on it."), you might suggest that in exchange for returning his mace to him, he has to agree to pay for the restoration of your staff. And that you are willing to take his word that he will make good on this agreement. Mending only does minor repairs. The DM actually described the staff as "shattered", I'd say that's well beyond that. As for fabricate, we could have done that, if the ship that was taking us to the next plot point :P wasn't leaving in an hour of IC time. If you talk to the DM, he can arrange for a zone of truth spell, a mending spell, or at the very least a good description of the apology. "The kobold approaches you with a look of pure regret and sadness..." Eeeeeeeh, not gonna happen. That would be totally inappropreate IC behavior for my charachter. Being the bigger man and offering forth a little humility for the team, sure, that's just wise. But he did try to actually kill little Dirk. Shoudln't he at least insist the cleric apologize for that first?
pres_man 01-31-06, 02:36 PM	Probably. Should the other player be there when I talk to the DM? So we can work all this out? I would say no, explain to the DM your concerns about how the other player is playing his character and how you are going to try to put the conflict between the characters to rest. Ask him to think about your concerns, and that you would hope the DM would at least discuss them with the player. It doesn't matter if the concerns come from a different player or the DM, the DM should be the one discussing with the specific player. Eeeeeeeh, not gonna happen. That would be totally inappropreate IC behavior for my charachter. That might be a little too far, but your character being good would definitely feel bad about how things escalated. When good characters battle each other only evil wins. Being the bigger man and offering forth a little humility for the team, sure, that's just wise. But he did try to actually kill little Dirk. Shoudln't he at least insist the cleric apologize for that first? No, he shouldn't insist on an apology. A forced apology is meaningless, how many times have you seen parents tell their children to go say they are sorry and the kid does it, but you can tell he isn't, he's angry. It would be nice if he apologized and hopefully if the DM talks to him about his character's behaviour, he might be more willing to do that. But you shouldn't insist on an apology, you should just worry about your actions. The thing is though, if he does not apologize (on his own), then your character doesn't have to "forgive" his character. Your character will basically treat him as if he was an evil character in the party. A powerful ally but not someone you want to turn your back on.
Cifer 01-31-06, 03:52 PM	Shall we get back to the Ingame-reactions? Ok. The zone of truth is a good idea for a start. If nobody is able to do it, make the cleric swear on his god that he is not going to lie. If he does... well, then he most probably has had his clerical powers for the longest time which should be enough revenge for you. Anyway, after that you basically stick to the truth. Tell the audience that in retrospective it was not reverent of you to hit the cleric like you did but that he had broken your family heirloom and you got carried away with your emotions, thus taking his mace. Then proceed to the wolf battle, describing how he - not the tiefling, not the half orc, but the good cleric of a deity of light and mercy - shoved you into the wolves, nearly killing you and making you fear him so you did not bring the matter up again. He then went on to bully you, trying to destroy your next staff and even attacking you at which point your friends defended you and the situation went out of control. However this ends, don't kill him (killing a cleric always makes matters a bit... messy, especially since you expressed your reasons for doing so in front of the judge a while ago...). Get your "loyal followers" (the tiefling and the halforc and the bard if he wants to) and leave him. Be honest with him and tell him you cannot trust him after what he did. Most importantly, before you enact the last paragraph, discuss matters with the player and the master. I don't think any DM will blame you for not bending your character - and you would have to bend him pretty much, since putting your life in the hands of someone who already wanted to kill you once is not what I call logical. Probably. Should the other player be there when I talk to the DM? So we can work all this out? I think it would be the best way to first maybe phone or email the DM, detailing your reasons why you want the character to leave the group. Then arrange a meeting between you and both the DM and the cleric's player to settle the matter.
SOPI 02-05-06, 04:13 PM	Hi. I happen to be the player in JadeFox's group who plays the barbarian. (His name is actually Ug Krugging, not Grunk, but no biggy.) I've been reading through the post, and I wanted to let people who mentioned it know that we didn't get much of a trial. In fact, our group pretty much deserted our capturer (the prince of the evil city that we were in) as soon as we got within the city walls. Ug was caught, in a scene involving a fruit stand, fruit vendor, a half-celestial, and a privy, and the others came to a meeting to discuss this with the prince. After a whole long situation, the party is know sneaking about the palace trying to prove the prince of some evil deeds. (Hopefully, they intend to spring my character free as well. :P )