Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prozacman 05-01-05, 09:13 PM	so heres the deal, i'm playing a thief in a game. and i want soo badly to rob a jewler in town. soo much shinies! but the security is very tight, heres a synopsis: the doors are all well lit by torches on either side. the windows are barred with steel bars. the walls are stone. and the roof is of course shingled. all the guards are mercinaries so if they could be convinced that guarding this place was not worth their pay they would likely desert. also they may be able to be bribed, but there are soo many that would be expensive and would likely cut out most if not all of my profit. i havn't actually been inside so i don't know what the floor is made of. there is a druid and a ranger in the party that could be convinced to help for a cut... i am a rogue. and there is a palidin who needs to remain ignorant of this little job. ANY ideas would be appreciated. see also my post in the skills section about digging a tunnel. thanx in advance for any help and ideas. -note: i tried to make a map so y'all could see but it didn't turn out. suffice it to say the building is one floor. there are 3 windows (barred) and two doors, with unmoving guards in front of them. a relatively tight perimeter is held up by 8 different guards who all partrol different parts. I don't think i can pick the locks.. i've not examined them too closely but i'm pretty sure, as successful as this jewler is, his locks are REALLY masterwork.
Flushmaster 05-01-05, 09:30 PM	Is there a back door? How much traffic does this street see at night? How many guards? Are the guards inside the shop, or outside? And what level is your party? These are important things to know...
prozacman 05-02-05, 01:16 AM	both the front and back doors are guarded by one guard each, who do not move. the street does not have enough traffic at night for it to be an issue. there are 8 guards on patrol, each of which has its own route, none of which intersect. and no two walk the same route. (not counting the door guards) as far as i know there are no guards on the inside. and i'm pretty sure there are not, as it is a warehouse and the guards are mercs.. probably underpaid. the party is lvl two, I myself am a crossclass lvl 1 rogue lvl 1 soulknife.. meaning climb checks are not an issue. however the important skills for B & E are at 5 ranks: hide, move silent, open lock, disable device, sleight of hand, bluff, esca[e art, and search. specifically
Gauze Fireforge 05-02-05, 01:59 AM	Do you have access to Silent image or other illusions? Do you have a good modifier to use magic device if you dont have any arcanists? If feasible, time the route of the guards so that you will have a window of opportunity to take out the single guard at the back door. Only knock him out. From there, work out a way to get inside. If you can pick the lock, then drag the guard inside and do a silent image of the guard standing outside in his nomral position and then loot to your hearts content. If you dont have access to magic, possibly take out a guard, then dress up in the guards stuff and try to pass yourself off as the guard. The others then go and loot. I would presonally look to magic to help you out. POssibly the druid may have something that could warp a part of the building which will help you get in. Does the druid have an animal companion? Could the druid summon some creatures that could dig a tunnel?
Rellik Laires 05-02-05, 02:02 AM	well if your high enough level your druid can cast stone shape and put a whole in the wall without a problem,if your ranger doesn't have a problem with it he can very easily be a distraction yell a slur to the guards on patrol in the back and run right through the allies and leave the back door wide open.or if your druid has a exotic animal liek a tiger just have him run thrugh and be a distraction (faster and easier to get away)
prozacman 05-02-05, 04:45 AM	many thanx folks. i'm not sure the guards would chase after anything.. they are mercinaries highered only to guard the building.. i'd need a serious distraction to go through the wall. however summoning burrowing creatures has some merit. however, if i could convince a group of nearby orcs to attack the town that might work.. but it could have unforseen problems
Flushmaster 05-02-05, 05:19 AM	If sneaking up behind the guard is at all feasible, get a sap. It deal subdual damage and you can add your sneak attack bonus. In fact, if the ranger also has ranks in hide and move silently, they can sneak up with you and the two of you can both hit with saps on a surprise round; unless the guard is at least third level you'll probably knock him unconscious before hhe can even react. You could also get some knockout poison. A vial of drow poison costs 75gp and will immediately knock the guard out if he fails a DC 13 fortitude save. Carrion crawler brain juice costs 200gp and causes paralysis upon simple contact (not injury, like the drow poison) and also has a save DC of 13. Putting some of such a poison on hand crossbow drts or shuriken can be an effective way to deliver it, just have a few extras to hit him with if he passes the first save (if he seems too injured, a quick cooperative heal check should stabilize him if you don't want him to die). If you have ranks in use magic device, a scroll or wand of a simple spell can help out a lot. Daze, sleep, hypnotism, and charm person can all work; the spell need not take the guard out, but only prevent them from raising an alarm while your allies grapple him, covering his mouth in the process, and you beat him with a sap until he's knocked out. Once you knock him out, you'll want to tie him up, gag him, and drag him out of sight, of course. For geting into the doors, consider a scroll of knock. It may be a bit pricey, but it'll open that lock quickly and quietly. Of course this also depends on you having ranks in use magic device. If you don't, then post a lookout and take 20 on picking the lock (a set of masterwork thieves tools can't hurt) and hope that that gets your check high enough. I like and endorse the idea of having somebody dress up like the guard or post a silent image of him (also from a scroll since no arcane caster is in your crew) while the other two do the looting. Less suspiscion from passersby that way. Of course you'll want a quick escape route here, and might want to consider getting out of town quick and then fencing the loot elsewhere so as not to arouse suspiscion from authorities by selling it nearby.
CJDragon 05-02-05, 06:46 AM	Depending on how much money you want to make out of this guy, a con could be better than a full on robbery. That way you won't put him out of business, and can come back again later. Ok, for a con I would find out his most expensive item, make an iron copy of it and paint it gold (if its a gold item obviously). Then go into the shop dressed up fancy, and ask to see the item. Then when you have it, get the druid to ask how much something is from the other side of the counter. Make a sleight of hand check to pocket the real one, and draw the fake. Then , scratch it and make a huge fuss that its fake, and threaten to tell the guards and put him out of business. If done right he should pay you not to tell anyone, keeping him in business. Not only do you steal his most valuable piece, but you'd get paid for doing it! Anyway, if you're fixed on stealing, then I would knock out the guard, usings saps or poison as suggested, and then get the ranger to diguise as him and take his place. Also, have expeditious retreat cast on him. Now you should stand next to the lock and look round, as though you're looking for something to buy (or better yet, by the lock while invisible if you can get it). Get the druid to summon an animal, such as an hawk, and make it fly crazily around the shop. You start picking the lock in the confusion, or bash it in, if you can. The noise of the animal and the rushing guards should cover up the noise of you hitting the lock. Then the druid comes in, "cast animal friendship" (but really just makes the animal stop) and saves the guys shop. Then he can be disgussing a reward, while you pick the lock still, if you need to. You get all the stuff, put it in a bag, give the bag to the ranger, and he runs off. If the plan were to go pear shaped, make a comment like "hey, that wasn't the guard that was there a few min ago!" and point at the ranger. The guards should chase him, and he should move slow enough to make them think they can catch him, but fast enough to stay out of their reach. Then you all just run and meet at a predetermined place. So the plans a little sketchy, but it should be adaptable to your situation, as you know the exact details of the mission
Bael the Bard 05-02-05, 09:52 AM	Prozacman are you just passing through this town or do you stay there on every session? Everyone has been giving you great idea's but nobodies ever considered if there might be a trap or not. In another campaign a halfling rogue did the same thing to a jewelry shop, she found the safe in the shop they were in, but it didn't open with a key it opened with hidden switches. she found two switches so she pulled both, one opened the safe with a crap load of gems and a bag of GP and a bag of PP but the other let out knock out gas. She grabbed the stuff and ran regardless, but whose to say it can't happen to you, and you pull the wrong switch first. Also you're just assuming the jeweler is a commoner, when he could be a retired wizard or a retired rouge who liked gems more than adventuring. If either are the case they can still make pretty mean traps, and what if you get caught. This was a plot device for another campaign I played in, I got caught and was given two options by the king join an adventuring party to find out whats happening to the disappearing scouting parties, or lose both hands. Sorry if I'm giving you doubts I just want you to think about this carefully before you try it. Let us know how it goes regardless of who you listen to.
prozacman 05-04-05, 08:15 AM	well.. thats a good point. he might be a retired adventurer. This is a town were going to be in for a while, so discretion is key. The shop keeper is a slick old guy, i tried to rob his cart during the day and i couldn't get in a finger edgewise. it is my hope that he is so sure of his multiple guards and high tech locks that he doesn't have any traps inside the warehouse. but thanks for the warning, i will be wary of switches.. and make sure to search the place carefully for traps. I'll deffinately update everyone when i pull the job, it should be tommorow. I've gotten a lot of good ideas from both this post and the one in the skills section. thanx again everyone
Bael the Bard 05-04-05, 10:20 AM	A 2nd lv rogue trying to pick a lock try reading the equipment section in chapter 7 of the php the lock dcs are as follows 20 simple,25 average, 30 good, 40 superior. Ok lets say you rolled really good and have an 18 for dex, and you also have the feat skill focus open lock, and you bought masterwork thieves tools. Thats 5 for skill points for being lv 2, +4 from dex, +3 for skill focus, and +2 for master work thieves tools, thats a +14 if your lucky. Ok the first 2 locks you could pick pretty easy, but considering this is a smart jeweler he'd have the good or superior lock so the good would be hard to pick and the superior would not be possible. As for using a scroll of knock the dc to use magic device to use that scroll would be 22 and I don't think you could use it effectively. Another point do you really want to steal from a town you're going to be in for a while, don't you think it'll be suspicious walking around with alot of money and or gems, what if the city watch decided to check the citizens or travelers for the stolen stuff. Sorry I'm too paranoid to make a good rogue, these are just words of advice you can listen to them or not its up to you. either way tell us what you decide.
gavalicks 05-04-05, 10:44 AM	Pick up a knock spell and invisibility. Cast invisibility you won't be seen. Use knock to open all those locks. that simple. Since knock is not an attack spell you will remain invisible steal to your hearts content. The only problem is have an alarm counterspell ready, just encase one is set up. Don't know how your DM plays but mine says low magic setting but all store keepers seem to have magic security for their goods to the max. And says they take great pride to guard there goods. (Ya Right - I just don't think he likes his shops to get robbed-)
Aardobard 05-04-05, 11:28 AM	Imagine an "adventuring party" who rarely leaves town. Instead they are security specialists. The rogue handles aesthetic security, things like lighting, engineering surprises and whatnot; the "arcanist" provides for magical alarms help with magical traps and magical barriers; the cleric/paladin can do the equivalent of background checks and drug screening. Of course, the fee could be anything from a flat fee to a percent of profits. The abilities of the service expand as the party gains experience and their services become more valuable. I can see a whole campaign here. Who tests the security? Would the party be sure enough of it's capabilities to "hire" the thieves guild to test their security? When the shops they secure begin to be robbed, is there a mole or is it another company who can thwart the security attempts? :giggle:
moustache guy 05-04-05, 02:45 PM	Hmmm...I'd say that this situation looks like your DM trying to tell you not to rob the jewler. Your chars are only second level after all. Also, this act is obviously evil, and you're doing it premeditated. I would say that if you follow through with the act, your character, if he's not evil yet, he is now. Which means that the paladin can't adventure with you. Furthermore, since you're only 2nd lvl, and you don't have an arcane caster in the group, all the previous spell suggestions are really out of your grasp. Then there's the fact that you have to speak out loud to cast a spell. That would only tell the guards exactly where you are. (It's a DC 0 listen check) Also, the ambushing the guards is not a good idea unless you have a silence spell, which you don't. Fighting itself is very loud and easy to hear. (At least DC 0, if not -10) Tunneling is a good idea. The bad part is that summon spells last for 1 round per level, and you won't be able to take advantage of any digging ability. Tunneling by yourselves would take months. It would be funny if the jewler had a stone floor. Next, mercenary guards tells me that the guards are also experienced. So they won't be your run-of-the mill 2nd lvl warrior types. They may even be 2nd lvl fighter types or stronger. And a bribe? I doubt it would work. The rule of thumb is to pay your guards enough so they wont take the loot themselves. A con job, and a small take, are your better bet.
RogerWilco 05-04-05, 03:12 PM	Hmmm...I'd say that this situation looks like your DM trying to tell you not to rob the jewler. Your chars are only second level after all. Also, this act is obviously evil, and you're doing it premeditated. I would say that if you follow through with the act, your character, if he's not evil yet, he is now. Which means that the paladin can't adventure with you. Furthermore, since you're only 2nd lvl, and you don't have an arcane caster in the group, all the previous spell suggestions are really out of your grasp. Then there's the fact that you have to speak out loud to cast a spell. That would only tell the guards exactly where you are. (It's a DC 0 listen check) Also, the ambushing the guards is not a good idea unless you have a silence spell, which you don't. Fighting itself is very loud and easy to hear. (At least DC 0, if not -10) Tunneling is a good idea. The bad part is that summon spells last for 1 round per level, and you won't be able to take advantage of any digging ability. Tunneling by yourselves would take months. It would be funny if the jewler had a stone floor. Next, mercenary guards tells me that the guards are also experienced. So they won't be your run-of-the mill 2nd lvl warrior types. They may even be 2nd lvl fighter types or stronger. And a bribe? I doubt it would work. The rule of thumb is to pay your guards enough so they wont take the loot themselves. A con job, and a small take, are your better bet. I agree wholehartedly. An Alarmspell is only first level, permanency or a 4th level caster can let it last long enough. If you were only passing though and at least level 4-5 I'd give it a shot, at level 2 and in a town you'll be revisiting I dont think it's a good idea. With a paladin in the party it's just not an option, unless your intentions are to nuke the party.
Thoronmir 05-04-05, 03:28 PM	I highly recommend that you perform some reconnaissance before you make your run at the jeweler. I realize that you’ve scouted the shop pretty well … you know how many guards there are and their patterns. But, given the likely outcome of this endeavor, I’d spend a day or two scouting out the local jail. After all, how else will you escape once you’re caught and imprisoned for trying to rob the jeweler? Trust me, it’s much easier to figure a way out of jail before you’re behind bars rather than after. ;)
Bael the Bard 05-04-05, 05:26 PM	prozacman if you want to steal stuff steal it from dead enemies the paladin will even help you, as its the spoils of battle and everyone gets a split. Do what every other party does fight some small stuff like goblins and orcs lv up and then take on bigger stuff and get gold that way. Its a bad thing not to be able to go back to a town because you stole a couple gems, who knows maybe later on you'll need that jeweler to get diamonds for ressurection spells or to sell gems you've gotten from battle. Just be sure and think of an alternative to a get rich quick scheme, at the least if you get caught you go to jail for a while maybe lose a hand but you might get killed by the mercenaries, or the thieves guild in that town for stealing on their turf. I'd take my chances against orcs and goblins rather than a thief guild or a whole town.
prozacman 05-04-05, 07:09 PM	believe it or not most of the concerns you've voiced i've thought of already. while i'm not technically a member, the local thieves guild likes me a lot. i spend a lot of money there on equipment (the only place i actually BUY thing). also i ALWAYS fence my loot through them. this is my character's home town afterall, though as a player i don't know the jail.. i'm sure he does (this just means i have to mention having scouted the jail in the past and the DM will hook me up). also, on a side note.. between a set of lock picks hidden in my smuggler's boots (dc 35 to find, hells yea). and the fact i have a level of soulknife (hello instant weapon and up the walls feat). I'm pretty confident i can break outta prison if i have to. in addition i have no plans of actually keeping the jewels i steal, i'm fencing them through my contact with the guild. if i dig a tunnel, and there is a stone floor, stonebreaker acid (reciently commandeered from a local alchemist) will make short work of it. as for summon spells only lasting a short period of time.. thats why i convince the Druid to cast the spell multiple times. on another note, the DM and I have spoken to great lengths on just what counts as an evil act. and he's said that in most cases he doesn't consider ledgermain to be evil.. particularly if you steal only from rich merchants. if i were stealing bread from starving orphans it'd be a different story. in any case, thanx for all the ideas everyone.. and even thanx for the nay-saying.. i have to consider all angles.. like Danny Ocean (that guy's awesome!) if y'all have any other ideas, feel free to send them my way.. although you'll have to make it quick cause the game starts in a couple hours
prozacman 05-05-05, 06:50 PM	ok, so i pulled the heist. how's that quote go? about the best laid plans of mice and men? anyway, the druid was AWOL last night so summoning badgers to dig was outta the question. I asked the ranger to go find a dire badger and convince it to help us, she was unsuccessful. So i fell back on my contingency plan. I stole a key from the guards. made a mold of it outta wax (i forget who gave me the idea.. it was brilliant) went to the thieves guild and had a copy made. later that night i snuck past the guards (very carefully) and tried my key, IT DIDNT FIT! ahhh. so either the smith messed it up or it was the wrong key, either way i managed to pick the lock. so now i'm inside, and with careful use of a few tindertwigs opened up some cases and stole 300 gp worth of gems.. but THEY WERE MONOGRAMED! the thieves guild wont even fence them because everyone on the island would know where the came from. I'll have to sell them elsewhere. The vault where all the best stuff was, was of gnomish design and well beyond my capability to crack (and without a dire badger i really couldn't get into it) also there was a trap door in the floor that had some very strange magical trap that i couldn't identify so i steered clear of it, for fear it was a containment trap for overly greedy thieves. and then i ended up having to melt through the top of the wall to get out. all in all, a lot of work for not much gain, and i couldn't make it in and out without any evidence as i had hoped. <sigh> thats what i get for robbing the most wealthy merchant in town i suppose. i guess i'll have to wait until i'm higher level for jobs like this to be truely effective. but really, i was doing it for bragging rights mostly. and i have them.
Bael the Bard 05-05-05, 09:39 PM	Hey at least ya got yer health :rofl: What'd I tell ya, listen to the bard we tell good stories, were there traps yes were there magic yes but at least you knew what was within your ability and you can always comeback. Hey at least you didn't have this scenario, player: ok I'm in what do I see in the vault DM:You see a couple of bags full of coins some gems and a really nice scroll its gold leafed and it looks important, do you read it? player: sure can't hurt to look Dm:you've just read explosive runes you take 6d6 force damage no save cause you were close enough to read it personally this has never happened to me, but its possible
CJDragon 05-06-05, 03:04 PM	how's that quote go? about the best laid plans of mice and men? "Even the best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry" or summant like that. Wow, my GCSE's have actually taught me summant useful! And by useful I mean pointless... and by pointless i mean lame enough that if anyone i know reads this thy're gonna beat me up.... aww well. Neway, glad it went well....ish, good luck selling the gems, if you want to. However, if I were you, I wouldn't sell them. Since they would be difficult and dangerous to sell, you should keep them and use them for bribary instead. That way you don't run the risk of them being recognised, and they could help you out in a tight spot.
Yruc 05-06-05, 04:19 PM	if they are monogrammed then the jeweler knows what they look like and can divine for them. I'd get rid of them ASAP.
CJDragon 05-07-05, 08:01 AM	Ahh, good point. I usually forget about divining magic and think real world situation. I agree, get rid of 'em
Faragon 05-07-05, 10:44 AM	Or get magic that shields them from divination. Or hide them. (bury them somewhere?) Or donate them to charity :P