A New Revelation [Archive] - Wizards Community

A New Revelation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Magnus029
09-28-04, 07:35 PM So a couple weeks ago I was working on my new PC, I decided to go half-drow and take the drow eyes feat for 120' darkvision, I figured l4 fighter/10 rogue/6 telflamar shadowlord. I got really good abilities scores 11, 18, 11, 18, 16, 16. I put the character on paper and was ready to game. I got the feats I am going to need and skills I am gonna need written down. I selected Thesk for my home region cause that is required for my PRC that I want to become, I am a member of the guild and everything I am on the right path, just need to save the funds to get the ritual performed so I can be a shadow walker...

Now the game has not even started yet, I have not role-played this character at this point at all and I already have a potential 21 level build in mind for the character. I thought back and my last several characters I did the same thing with, not the same build, but had built the character up before I even started playing. The people I game with (most of them, not all) do the same thing. Other groups I have gamed with do the same thing, I see here the character optimization thread, formerly the min/max board and this is what it is designed for.

Is the art of ROLE-PLAYING dead?

Thinking back the most fun I have ever had with a character was some time ago, I was a elven rogue who wanted to do nothing more than to become a famous explorer. He got sucked into a war he wanted nothing to do with and somehow became a cleric of Selune, a few bad decisions and he went from chaotic good to neutral evil and a rogue/cleric of velsharoon.

So is the art of ROLE-PLAYING dead? How do you get back to it?
LukiLoki
09-28-04, 07:55 PM You compartmentalize.
Min-maxing is fine, to a point. Roleplaying is good, to a point.

If min-maxing is causing you to regard your character as nothing but a collection of statistics so dense on the sheet that you can't find the line that says "NAME", you're beyond that point.

If your 12-page, footnoted backstory requires your 5th level fighter to carry a rusty dagger and wear lice-infested padded armor, you're beyond that point.

In short, there's nothing keeping you from roleplaying an optimized character, and there's nothing keeping you from optimizing a cool concept.
Rian Lightblade
09-28-04, 07:57 PM I understand what you're talking about. The following are a set of rules that I have always enforced, since starting 3ed, to help keep Role-playing in my games.

1. All PCs start at first level.
2. No races with a LA higher then two.
3. PCs wishing to multi-class must do so in game. (i.e. they have to Role-play finding a teacher willing to teach them.)
4. PrCs (if I even allow any) must be earned through role-playing.
5. Memberships to any guilds or oragnizations (where memberships benefits the PC, gamewise) must be made through role-playing.

There are more, but these give an idea of what I have done. I feel these steps have helped to prevent that feeling you're talking about as well as toning down some of the min/maxing that 3ed seem to incite IMO. Talk to your DM, ask them to integrate any of these ideas you think might help or suggest some of your own.
CzarGarrett
09-28-04, 08:03 PM I find that to make a beyond normal character, I'll write down about 10 or 15 traits. Some are wierd-->twitches, obessions, human with naturally blue hair, etc.. Some are mostly normal-->former guard, distrusts arcane magic, etc.

Then I randomly select 3 or 4 of the trais and build a character around them. The stats become almost secondary so that I could have a fighter who'd rather not fight, mostly because he's not that strong (Str 12) or sturdy (Con 13) and because he tends to be able to talk/think his way out of situations (Int 15, Cha 15). To do so, he tries to disarm his opponents first. So on and so on. Even if they don't make much sense together, thats where the interesting RPing comes in. Make it work with creativity.
Magnus029
09-28-04, 08:27 PM Actually my DM is in the same mindset I am in.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=314117

Now most of the situations there are not applying to me and I don't think anything was directed at me specifically but when I saw that remark about the 20 level builds and XP to get to level 20 (I would personally hope that takes some time, are games are fast but...) it hit me, I forgot how to RP and have turned my favorite leisure activty into damn video game!!!
Wil Harvey
09-29-04, 01:13 AM Here's what I do:

1.) First, I pick out a race. For my current character, I picked a wood elf, because I don't play elves much and I really found the wood elf outlook interesting.

2.) Then, I decide what main ideas I want for my character. Because of the wood elves' natural liking or larger felines, I decided my wood elf would have a puma animal companion. When I decided on a puma animal companion, I envisioned an infamous duo of man and animal known far and wide as the deadliest hunting pair.

3.) Finally, I looked at it from a game mechanics standpoint. I have no idea how exactly I want to progress this master hunter type character. Since I'm starting at level two, I figure I'll start with two levels of druid (with the variant from UA swapping wild shape for some ranger abilities), with the intention of picking up at least one level of fighter in the near future. If I like the tactical spellcasting the druid would allow, I'll continue down that path. If I end up enjoying the weapon-wielding aspect more, I'll get more ranger/fighter levels.

Basically, I just think of a concept that seems interesting, and then figure out a good way to start me on that path. I never plan the rest of the path, though, because I just don't know where I'm going to go once I start playing the character. I find it to be quite a fun way to approach it.
darczero
09-29-04, 01:44 AM Roleplay is not dead. At least not for all of us out there.

Some DM's will argue, regardless of the validity, that a player is simply writing up a set of statistics and trying to pull the most out of them. They will ramble about "Min-Max" and "Powergamer!" and all those other nasty words that we (the players) don't like used against us. And then they will do the same things, worse that we do, and use them against us.

My advice is simply to play your character. Enjoy the play value of the character, not their numerical power. And if your DM starts throwing those nasty words at you, smile and nod... :schemes:
Arak the mighty
09-29-04, 01:56 AM Being a DM and a player, I get the best of both worlds. I put a lot of time in building my NPC's, what role they will play, and what stats will best suit them to play that role. The creation process of my NPC's is very mechanical. I get the end result, and then build backwards. eg, I start with a Lv. 11 fighter (champion of chaos) give him his feats, stats, weapons, and so on.

When I get to play a character, I don't think ahead at all. I let the character building process be a very organic thing, and let the world I'm playing in and situations I encounter guide the decisions I make as to feat selection/mutliclassing/skill selection, etc.

I have been playing a rogue, and I recently out of the blue added a level of wizard, because of in game circumstances, I figured it would be very helpful to the guy in many ways, and was a somewhat logical decision.

In game, (I'm not flaming here, ok!) I just can't see a person think to himself "boy, when I'm really powerful, I'm going to be a fighter/rogue/shadowlord someday!" He's going to have long term goals, of course, but obviously not that precise. Let the process happen, and let logical procession make the decisions along the way.

When I made my rogue, I certainly didn't think " at some point, I'll add some wizard levels". It just "happened" because it was logical.

I suggest you try this "organic" method, and see how it works.
IceFractal
09-29-04, 03:17 AM Sometimes I think of a character concept first and then try to figure out how I'd do that in game terms, and sometimes I think of a cool specialty (like controlling a 75' area with a supersized rope dart) and base a character around that.

Either way, I do tend to plan the levels out ahead of time, because it can really stink to go 2 or 3 levels into a class and then find out that in a source you'd forgot about is something that would've been just perfect, and its now too late to use well. That said, some builds are precision planned and others are just a guideline to use if I don't think of something else I like more.

Ideally, IMO a character should combine an interesting concept, a good story, and an optimized implementation. How much to optimize is a question though, if I'm making a character for a new campaign I'll sometimes borrow a concept from the world of 3D and have "levels of detail", except for me they're "levels of optimization". Like thusly:

Level 1 - The most ideal optimization possible, made with the assumption that the DM will be flexible with existing material, let you make up some stuff of your own, use stuff from the internet, etc.

Level 2 - Changes to level one to make it fully rules compatible, but using as many sources as desired.

Level 3 - Changes to level two to make it use just the core rules, or just the core rules plus any other sources you're absolutely sure are allowed. Also, this is the level at which to cut characters that use half a dozen classes down to a smaller number, some DMs hate that type of character.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with planning out a character ahead of time, because while your character wouldn't think "Someday I'll be a Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Ninja 2/Druid 1/Forest Spy 1", they also wouldn't have to train along specific class lines. Planning things out ahead of time helps you choose your own path.

On a final note, its interesting that some very detailed and fun to roleplay characters originally came from simple min/max origins. One time I built up a gargantuan spiked chain wielding juggernaut using stuff from as many sources as I could find to min/max it to the limit, just for fun, and in the course of making it I came up with an interesting concept, a cool backstory, and am looking forward to using it in a game some time (although I might ditch some of the more ridiculously broken parts of it :D ).
jnrhayz
09-29-04, 03:30 PM I find that I have the opposite problem. I love to make role-playing characters, take skills that build off my background, and develop class selection from roleplaying.

The problem with this is that the DM determines what skills I can use and when I can use them, in the current game the DM didn't even read my background or require one from the players, and is causing class selection to be difficult. He also maxes out hit die and the creatures' which causes a small need for min/maxing. The problem being I stink at min/maxing because I am "trapped" by my character idea. I throw away classes and prestige classes because they don't match my ideas.

I am trapped by my need to roleplay... My favorite thing to work on for a character is skills. I think every class could get an increase in starting skill points and it would make the game more interesting. Or at the very least remove cross-class penalties (houserule when I DM).
Board_Rider
09-29-04, 09:35 PM In game, (I'm not flaming here, ok!) I just can't see a person think to himself "boy, when I'm really powerful, I'm going to be a fighter/rogue/shadowlord someday!" He's going to have long term goals, of course, but obviously not that precise. Let the process happen, and let logical procession make the decisions along the way.

When I made my rogue, I certainly didn't think " at some point, I'll add some wizard levels". It just "happened" because it was logical.
I suggest you try this "organic" method, and see how it works.

Thank you...someone gets it. I do use your organic method. I think that is about as close to roleplaying, character build wise, as one can get. I had a character once at 15th level and had to take Arisocrat because it worked. I was mayor for a while. Good Post Arak.

Please read my rant from the Link provided by Magnus above.
R-man
09-30-04, 07:34 AM My largest complaint with how prestige classes work in 3.X is that you need to plan the character out right from 1st level. Prestige class requirements and powers shouldn't require specific Feats to allow entry. They should give only their full power if all of the feat prerequisites are taken, but there should be the option to avoid having some complicated class/race/feat prerequisite requirement to be allowed to play the concept that you are interested in.
Arak the mighty
09-30-04, 11:19 AM Have you considered that that's why they're called "prestige" classes, because it's not exactly easy to obtain the necessary requirements to take the class?

I think people get too locked into what they have to have their character be, before they even put pencil to character sheet and start building a guy.

"I'm gonna play an elven ranger, and I'm eventually going to take some levels in X, and then a few levels in Z"

To me, that's just now how it should be done.

I remember when I first started 18 years ago, when we rolled up characters, it was 3D6, and you rolled IN ORDER (STR, DEX, CON, etc) so your choice of what you were going to be was pretty much locked in for you. If you wanted a fighter, but rolled a 9 for strength, and a 16 INT, well..........

but what's wrong with that? It's not like we real life meatbags are any different. We didn't get to choose whether we'd be stronger rather than intelligent, or ugly, or handsome, or wise.

HOWEVER, I do like being able to assign the scores as I wish, because it is, after all, a game, and a game should be fun. But it seems to me like the original poster is saying that his focus on the numbers is taking his fun away.

My elven rogue that I've been playing for 3 years....I rolled him up. I had a 7 and a 9. A 10, 11, a 16, and a 14. Terrible rolls. The DM asked if I wanted to totally reroll. NO! So I stuck the 16 in DEX, the 7 in CHA, and spread the rest around. I started to get a feel for this character. I decided almost certainly he'd have to be a rogue. He had a CHA of 7, however, so he was either going to be socially retarded, or just not a nice guy.

We started adventuring, and by hook or by crook, the other players started looking to this guy as the party "leader". He didn't really lead, but he was the first guy to make decisions. So when he finally accepts his role as leader, he doesn't do it very well. He never says "please", he's often very short with his comrades. If someone performed poorly in a fight, he doesn't offer insight on how that character could have done something different, he's downright mean about telling them they didn't pull their weight. It's not that he's evil (he's TN), he's just not good at dealing with people, and especially humans (which the rest of the party is made up of)

He's had dealings with an evil cleric behind the party's back (as a means to an end) He also told the evil cleric that "someday, I am going to kill you". He's sought out a vampire lord on his own for advice on a very important issue. He was once thrown out of the town he grew up in, found out the lord of the town was a corrupt b****rd, snuck in, and burned the Lord's house to the ground. He found out the ruler of a small elven kingdom had been replaced by a shapeshifter, and pushed forth trying to restore the rightful ruler, despite no one believing him (that's what a low charisma will do!) He was in a spot where he was in a room surrounded by 24 elven warriors by himself, so he had taken the captain of the elves hostage (bow in the captains face, point blank) and demanded that he be allowed to speak, or he'd kill the captain (full well knowing he'd be dead shortly thereafter) For most of his early adventuring career, because no one would listen to him, he almost always resorted to dealing with his problems with anger (and in the case of burning down a house) violence. He consorted with "undesirables" because they were the only ones who would give him time of day. Only as a means to an end however. He's loyal to those close to him, but he's still got the mindset of "look out for #1"

At this point, this character is a ROG8/WIZ2 and if you care about stats only, he really sucks. His weapons suck (a +1 longsword, and a composite shortbow, no bonus). He's terrible in melee, and he's a passable archer. At 8th level, I put his bonus point into charisma, to represent him starting to be able to handle people a little better, but he's got a ways to go. I could have put that point into CON (extra HP) or STR (help in melee) but it didn't make as much sense. I don't think (as a player, I DM most of the time) I've ever had as much fun PLAYING a character in all my 18 years with the game.
MortalPlague
09-30-04, 11:36 AM The best way to inspire rp in a party that doesn't rp is to start them seperately, and have them each do an adventure or two on their own before they get together. The things that happen to them in each adventure will shape their world-view... if they pillage a trap-heavy tomb, they'll be much more cautious than the character who fled a burning town on a stolen horse. Also, it allows for the DM to set up numerous interesting plot hooks; the first character mentioned could be on the run from the law, or a character could have made powerful friends or enemies. It also gives each player a feel for how their character's personality plays out, and if they feel their class isn't working for them, they can multiclass before they get into the big party.

It is, however, lots of work for the DM.
Revelation
09-30-04, 11:38 AM I have a mental vision of the character and make them up from there, they develop depending upon the campaign, and I don't always worry about every EXACT requirement for PrCs. I like my players to do the same. Because of that one group I DM has a halfling wizard/rogue/ranger/.fighter whoi may yet take a rank of cleric as he's impressed by the people he meets and tries to copy them. Sometimes it's hard to play like that if you also have munchkins in the party, but a good DM should help balance that factor out somewhat, and you'll have more fun anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magnus029 09-28-04, 07:35 PM	So a couple weeks ago I was working on my new PC, I decided to go half-drow and take the drow eyes feat for 120' darkvision, I figured l4 fighter/10 rogue/6 telflamar shadowlord. I got really good abilities scores 11, 18, 11, 18, 16, 16. I put the character on paper and was ready to game. I got the feats I am going to need and skills I am gonna need written down. I selected Thesk for my home region cause that is required for my PRC that I want to become, I am a member of the guild and everything I am on the right path, just need to save the funds to get the ritual performed so I can be a shadow walker... Now the game has not even started yet, I have not role-played this character at this point at all and I already have a potential 21 level build in mind for the character. I thought back and my last several characters I did the same thing with, not the same build, but had built the character up before I even started playing. The people I game with (most of them, not all) do the same thing. Other groups I have gamed with do the same thing, I see here the character optimization thread, formerly the min/max board and this is what it is designed for. Is the art of ROLE-PLAYING dead? Thinking back the most fun I have ever had with a character was some time ago, I was a elven rogue who wanted to do nothing more than to become a famous explorer. He got sucked into a war he wanted nothing to do with and somehow became a cleric of Selune, a few bad decisions and he went from chaotic good to neutral evil and a rogue/cleric of velsharoon. So is the art of ROLE-PLAYING dead? How do you get back to it?
LukiLoki 09-28-04, 07:55 PM	You compartmentalize. Min-maxing is fine, to a point. Roleplaying is good, to a point. If min-maxing is causing you to regard your character as nothing but a collection of statistics so dense on the sheet that you can't find the line that says "NAME", you're beyond that point. If your 12-page, footnoted backstory requires your 5th level fighter to carry a rusty dagger and wear lice-infested padded armor, you're beyond that point. In short, there's nothing keeping you from roleplaying an optimized character, and there's nothing keeping you from optimizing a cool concept.
Rian Lightblade 09-28-04, 07:57 PM	I understand what you're talking about. The following are a set of rules that I have always enforced, since starting 3ed, to help keep Role-playing in my games. 1. All PCs start at first level. 2. No races with a LA higher then two. 3. PCs wishing to multi-class must do so in game. (i.e. they have to Role-play finding a teacher willing to teach them.) 4. PrCs (if I even allow any) must be earned through role-playing. 5. Memberships to any guilds or oragnizations (where memberships benefits the PC, gamewise) must be made through role-playing. There are more, but these give an idea of what I have done. I feel these steps have helped to prevent that feeling you're talking about as well as toning down some of the min/maxing that 3ed seem to incite IMO. Talk to your DM, ask them to integrate any of these ideas you think might help or suggest some of your own.
CzarGarrett 09-28-04, 08:03 PM	I find that to make a beyond normal character, I'll write down about 10 or 15 traits. Some are wierd-->twitches, obessions, human with naturally blue hair, etc.. Some are mostly normal-->former guard, distrusts arcane magic, etc. Then I randomly select 3 or 4 of the trais and build a character around them. The stats become almost secondary so that I could have a fighter who'd rather not fight, mostly because he's not that strong (Str 12) or sturdy (Con 13) and because he tends to be able to talk/think his way out of situations (Int 15, Cha 15). To do so, he tries to disarm his opponents first. So on and so on. Even if they don't make much sense together, thats where the interesting RPing comes in. Make it work with creativity.
Magnus029 09-28-04, 08:27 PM	Actually my DM is in the same mindset I am in. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=314117 Now most of the situations there are not applying to me and I don't think anything was directed at me specifically but when I saw that remark about the 20 level builds and XP to get to level 20 (I would personally hope that takes some time, are games are fast but...) it hit me, I forgot how to RP and have turned my favorite leisure activty into damn video game!!!
Wil Harvey 09-29-04, 01:13 AM	Here's what I do: 1.) First, I pick out a race. For my current character, I picked a wood elf, because I don't play elves much and I really found the wood elf outlook interesting. 2.) Then, I decide what main ideas I want for my character. Because of the wood elves' natural liking or larger felines, I decided my wood elf would have a puma animal companion. When I decided on a puma animal companion, I envisioned an infamous duo of man and animal known far and wide as the deadliest hunting pair. 3.) Finally, I looked at it from a game mechanics standpoint. I have no idea how exactly I want to progress this master hunter type character. Since I'm starting at level two, I figure I'll start with two levels of druid (with the variant from UA swapping wild shape for some ranger abilities), with the intention of picking up at least one level of fighter in the near future. If I like the tactical spellcasting the druid would allow, I'll continue down that path. If I end up enjoying the weapon-wielding aspect more, I'll get more ranger/fighter levels. Basically, I just think of a concept that seems interesting, and then figure out a good way to start me on that path. I never plan the rest of the path, though, because I just don't know where I'm going to go once I start playing the character. I find it to be quite a fun way to approach it.
darczero 09-29-04, 01:44 AM	Roleplay is not dead. At least not for all of us out there. Some DM's will argue, regardless of the validity, that a player is simply writing up a set of statistics and trying to pull the most out of them. They will ramble about "Min-Max" and "Powergamer!" and all those other nasty words that we (the players) don't like used against us. And then they will do the same things, worse that we do, and use them against us. My advice is simply to play your character. Enjoy the play value of the character, not their numerical power. And if your DM starts throwing those nasty words at you, smile and nod... :schemes:
Arak the mighty 09-29-04, 01:56 AM	Being a DM and a player, I get the best of both worlds. I put a lot of time in building my NPC's, what role they will play, and what stats will best suit them to play that role. The creation process of my NPC's is very mechanical. I get the end result, and then build backwards. eg, I start with a Lv. 11 fighter (champion of chaos) give him his feats, stats, weapons, and so on. When I get to play a character, I don't think ahead at all. I let the character building process be a very organic thing, and let the world I'm playing in and situations I encounter guide the decisions I make as to feat selection/mutliclassing/skill selection, etc. I have been playing a rogue, and I recently out of the blue added a level of wizard, because of in game circumstances, I figured it would be very helpful to the guy in many ways, and was a somewhat logical decision. In game, (I'm not flaming here, ok!) I just can't see a person think to himself "boy, when I'm really powerful, I'm going to be a fighter/rogue/shadowlord someday!" He's going to have long term goals, of course, but obviously not that precise. Let the process happen, and let logical procession make the decisions along the way. When I made my rogue, I certainly didn't think " at some point, I'll add some wizard levels". It just "happened" because it was logical. I suggest you try this "organic" method, and see how it works.
IceFractal 09-29-04, 03:17 AM	Sometimes I think of a character concept first and then try to figure out how I'd do that in game terms, and sometimes I think of a cool specialty (like controlling a 75' area with a supersized rope dart) and base a character around that. Either way, I do tend to plan the levels out ahead of time, because it can really stink to go 2 or 3 levels into a class and then find out that in a source you'd forgot about is something that would've been just perfect, and its now too late to use well. That said, some builds are precision planned and others are just a guideline to use if I don't think of something else I like more. Ideally, IMO a character should combine an interesting concept, a good story, and an optimized implementation. How much to optimize is a question though, if I'm making a character for a new campaign I'll sometimes borrow a concept from the world of 3D and have "levels of detail", except for me they're "levels of optimization". Like thusly: Level 1 - The most ideal optimization possible, made with the assumption that the DM will be flexible with existing material, let you make up some stuff of your own, use stuff from the internet, etc. Level 2 - Changes to level one to make it fully rules compatible, but using as many sources as desired. Level 3 - Changes to level two to make it use just the core rules, or just the core rules plus any other sources you're absolutely sure are allowed. Also, this is the level at which to cut characters that use half a dozen classes down to a smaller number, some DMs hate that type of character. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with planning out a character ahead of time, because while your character wouldn't think "Someday I'll be a Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Ninja 2/Druid 1/Forest Spy 1", they also wouldn't have to train along specific class lines. Planning things out ahead of time helps you choose your own path. On a final note, its interesting that some very detailed and fun to roleplay characters originally came from simple min/max origins. One time I built up a gargantuan spiked chain wielding juggernaut using stuff from as many sources as I could find to min/max it to the limit, just for fun, and in the course of making it I came up with an interesting concept, a cool backstory, and am looking forward to using it in a game some time (although I might ditch some of the more ridiculously broken parts of it :D ).
jnrhayz 09-29-04, 03:30 PM	I find that I have the opposite problem. I love to make role-playing characters, take skills that build off my background, and develop class selection from roleplaying. The problem with this is that the DM determines what skills I can use and when I can use them, in the current game the DM didn't even read my background or require one from the players, and is causing class selection to be difficult. He also maxes out hit die and the creatures' which causes a small need for min/maxing. The problem being I stink at min/maxing because I am "trapped" by my character idea. I throw away classes and prestige classes because they don't match my ideas. I am trapped by my need to roleplay... My favorite thing to work on for a character is skills. I think every class could get an increase in starting skill points and it would make the game more interesting. Or at the very least remove cross-class penalties (houserule when I DM).
Board_Rider 09-29-04, 09:35 PM	In game, (I'm not flaming here, ok!) I just can't see a person think to himself "boy, when I'm really powerful, I'm going to be a fighter/rogue/shadowlord someday!" He's going to have long term goals, of course, but obviously not that precise. Let the process happen, and let logical procession make the decisions along the way. When I made my rogue, I certainly didn't think " at some point, I'll add some wizard levels". It just "happened" because it was logical. I suggest you try this "organic" method, and see how it works. Thank you...someone gets it. I do use your organic method. I think that is about as close to roleplaying, character build wise, as one can get. I had a character once at 15th level and had to take Arisocrat because it worked. I was mayor for a while. Good Post Arak. Please read my rant from the Link provided by Magnus above.
R-man 09-30-04, 07:34 AM	My largest complaint with how prestige classes work in 3.X is that you need to plan the character out right from 1st level. Prestige class requirements and powers shouldn't require specific Feats to allow entry. They should give only their full power if all of the feat prerequisites are taken, but there should be the option to avoid having some complicated class/race/feat prerequisite requirement to be allowed to play the concept that you are interested in.
Arak the mighty 09-30-04, 11:19 AM	Have you considered that that's why they're called "prestige" classes, because it's not exactly easy to obtain the necessary requirements to take the class? I think people get too locked into what they have to have their character be, before they even put pencil to character sheet and start building a guy. "I'm gonna play an elven ranger, and I'm eventually going to take some levels in X, and then a few levels in Z" To me, that's just now how it should be done. I remember when I first started 18 years ago, when we rolled up characters, it was 3D6, and you rolled IN ORDER (STR, DEX, CON, etc) so your choice of what you were going to be was pretty much locked in for you. If you wanted a fighter, but rolled a 9 for strength, and a 16 INT, well.......... but what's wrong with that? It's not like we real life meatbags are any different. We didn't get to choose whether we'd be stronger rather than intelligent, or ugly, or handsome, or wise. HOWEVER, I do like being able to assign the scores as I wish, because it is, after all, a game, and a game should be fun. But it seems to me like the original poster is saying that his focus on the numbers is taking his fun away. My elven rogue that I've been playing for 3 years....I rolled him up. I had a 7 and a 9. A 10, 11, a 16, and a 14. Terrible rolls. The DM asked if I wanted to totally reroll. NO! So I stuck the 16 in DEX, the 7 in CHA, and spread the rest around. I started to get a feel for this character. I decided almost certainly he'd have to be a rogue. He had a CHA of 7, however, so he was either going to be socially retarded, or just not a nice guy. We started adventuring, and by hook or by crook, the other players started looking to this guy as the party "leader". He didn't really lead, but he was the first guy to make decisions. So when he finally accepts his role as leader, he doesn't do it very well. He never says "please", he's often very short with his comrades. If someone performed poorly in a fight, he doesn't offer insight on how that character could have done something different, he's downright mean about telling them they didn't pull their weight. It's not that he's evil (he's TN), he's just not good at dealing with people, and especially humans (which the rest of the party is made up of) He's had dealings with an evil cleric behind the party's back (as a means to an end) He also told the evil cleric that "someday, I am going to kill you". He's sought out a vampire lord on his own for advice on a very important issue. He was once thrown out of the town he grew up in, found out the lord of the town was a corrupt b****rd, snuck in, and burned the Lord's house to the ground. He found out the ruler of a small elven kingdom had been replaced by a shapeshifter, and pushed forth trying to restore the rightful ruler, despite no one believing him (that's what a low charisma will do!) He was in a spot where he was in a room surrounded by 24 elven warriors by himself, so he had taken the captain of the elves hostage (bow in the captains face, point blank) and demanded that he be allowed to speak, or he'd kill the captain (full well knowing he'd be dead shortly thereafter) For most of his early adventuring career, because no one would listen to him, he almost always resorted to dealing with his problems with anger (and in the case of burning down a house) violence. He consorted with "undesirables" because they were the only ones who would give him time of day. Only as a means to an end however. He's loyal to those close to him, but he's still got the mindset of "look out for #1" At this point, this character is a ROG8/WIZ2 and if you care about stats only, he really sucks. His weapons suck (a +1 longsword, and a composite shortbow, no bonus). He's terrible in melee, and he's a passable archer. At 8th level, I put his bonus point into charisma, to represent him starting to be able to handle people a little better, but he's got a ways to go. I could have put that point into CON (extra HP) or STR (help in melee) but it didn't make as much sense. I don't think (as a player, I DM most of the time) I've ever had as much fun PLAYING a character in all my 18 years with the game.
MortalPlague 09-30-04, 11:36 AM	The best way to inspire rp in a party that doesn't rp is to start them seperately, and have them each do an adventure or two on their own before they get together. The things that happen to them in each adventure will shape their world-view... if they pillage a trap-heavy tomb, they'll be much more cautious than the character who fled a burning town on a stolen horse. Also, it allows for the DM to set up numerous interesting plot hooks; the first character mentioned could be on the run from the law, or a character could have made powerful friends or enemies. It also gives each player a feel for how their character's personality plays out, and if they feel their class isn't working for them, they can multiclass before they get into the big party. It is, however, lots of work for the DM.
Revelation 09-30-04, 11:38 AM	I have a mental vision of the character and make them up from there, they develop depending upon the campaign, and I don't always worry about every EXACT requirement for PrCs. I like my players to do the same. Because of that one group I DM has a halfling wizard/rogue/ranger/.fighter whoi may yet take a rank of cleric as he's impressed by the people he meets and tries to copy them. Sometimes it's hard to play like that if you also have munchkins in the party, but a good DM should help balance that factor out somewhat, and you'll have more fun anyway.