Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evitharil 08-28-05, 08:32 AM	Hey all, During my latest d&d session, me and the rest of my party were captured by some sort of lawful evil society that lived underground. We appareantly violated their laws so we were to be captured. We ofcourse didn't go down without a fight, because we did nothing wrong, but i disgress. We were captured and locked up, charged with lots of stuff that we didn't do, and didn't know. I was for example also being charged with believing in a forbidden god (bahamut). Well to cut a long story short, some lawyers came up to us and they all told us we are probably facing execution, in which afterwards we would be raised as undeads to work for them. So it was pretty hopeless and we all knew that we probably wouldn't get out of here alive. However, one of the lawyers told me that he could get us out, for a certain price. I as the paladin and party leader carefully considered this and talked about it with the rest of the party in which we agreed. We bribed him, after some well rolled sense motives ofcourse. Now, my DM says that I have to find an atonement spell, for I have done something that a Paladin shouldn't do, is he right or is he wrong? I mean, what should I have done otherwise? I was trying to save the party and myself. Because we just knew that there wasn't alot of chance for us to get out of here if we followed the law. Their law was corrupt and incorrect, and most importantly, they were evil. Did I do something that wasn't acceptable for a Paladin and do I need to seek atonement, or was I right for doing it?
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 08:56 AM	Well corruption of just law leads to the degridation of good society, so you could argue it was a political attack on the stability of an evil society that would undermine a corrupt justice system ;) But if the DM has you to the wall, no way at all of getting out.... your stipped, manackled, caged, surrounded by 20 men and a day away from execution and you have the lives of others in your hands....Then a Paladins gotta do what a palladins gotta do. You basicly saved the lived and souls of the party by exloiting the weakness of evil. OK it was less than honorable BUT it was the most honorable outcome.... what was the other option? have your pride cause the deaths and undeadifying of the whole party? You took the only moral high ground you could... ok that ground wasn't very high but it was the only stance you could have taken when the lives of others where at stake... IMO.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 09:03 AM	Having an enemy put you through a sham justice system where all verditcs lead to execution then punishing your for escaping is tantamount to the DM having all bandits/orcs/orges/etc you come across shout "Stop! your under arrest, put the weapon down" at the begining of the encounter then punishing the paladin for not recognising thier lawful (Micky Mouse)"justice system" and surrendering right away. Your basicly having your code of conduct messed with and exploited.... It would seem, but we only have your point of veiw on the encounter to go on... but thats what it sound like.
Norhg 08-28-05, 11:19 AM	Perhaps you fell under the 'do not aid/frolick/work with the vile, evil and wicked' clause?
Radijs 08-28-05, 11:32 AM	Atonement spell and a quest to rid the world of that evil civilzation! Yay go paladins!
Mind Rogue 08-28-05, 11:53 AM	You said that the lawyers said that "for a price" he could get you out, meaning he was already expecting you to give him something, and he would free you. Technically, that isn't bribery but rather a legitiment business transaction because he had offered to do this for you if you paid him. Furthermore, I do not consider bribing a corrupt official in a corrupt land to save the lives of innocents to be grossly violating the paladin code of conduct. A minor transgression, perhaps, but certainly not enough to warrant taking away ones paladinhood. All in all, I'd say doing something like this is about as twisted as putting a loaf of bread in front of a starving man, and then shooting him when he reaches for it. Okay, so maybe not quite that extreme, but your DM has to understand that sometimes the means justify the ends, but just as often the ends justify the means. In this case, bribing an official is the lesser of the two evils when juxtaposed with the lives and souls of people being wrongfully accused. Also, remember that allowing an evil act to happen (in this case the execution of your comrads), when you have the power to stop it makes you an accomplice to the crime, and therefor in a way at fault. If I was your DM, I might actually be more likely to strip away your paladinhood if you let your allies be wrongfully executed (assuming your head wasn't also on the chopping block), then by using a slightly unsavory tactic to save them. Deciding not to decide is in and of itself, a decision, and choosing not to act is an action.
GemX 08-28-05, 12:22 PM	Paying someone to do their job is not bribery. Paying someone to mess up their job is. (Which you are not doing.) This was payment for a service you did not have to persuade him to do. Saying this is bribery is like saying "You lose your Paladinhood because you bribed the blacksmith to give you that sword from his shop." If anyone will do any bribery, the justice system will bribe your defense attornies to blow your case. Which might be expected of a Lawful Evil society (But this doesn't apply to you so much.)
Derren S. 08-28-05, 01:29 PM	I agree with the other posters. That was not bribery. You simply paid the lawyer to do his job.
SwollenOstrich 08-28-05, 01:30 PM	I disagree with all of the above posts. You bribed an official, which I think all would agree is a chaotic act. No where under the description of Paladins does it say that you are to commit no evil or chaotic act, with the exception being where doing so would save your life. Had I been in your position I would have either tried to fight my way out (and face the very real possibility of death) or gone infront of the court and gave a speech that the paladin class is so famous for. (Rereading your OP, I see you made the decision for your party. In that case, a better course of action would be to allow your party members to bribe the guy, while you yourself remain in jail. That would give them the oppertunity to free you as well.) Now, your actions are not entirely your fault. I believe its the fault of the DM if he leaves you no options but break your paladin code or become an animated corpse. In this case if I was DM I would probably find a lesser punishment then completly revoking your abilities.
Derren S. 08-28-05, 01:36 PM	When you pay a lawyer to get you out of prison it is considered bribery? Then payign fines is also bribery I suppose? Its a nice image. Pay your ticket for false parking and get jailed for bribing a police officer.
Falkus 08-28-05, 01:50 PM	No where under the description of Paladins does it say that you are to commit no evil or chaotic act Go back and read the code of conduct again. Chaotic acts are fully permitted, as long as the lawful alignment isn't lost. It's only evil acts that are explicitly forbidden.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 02:09 PM	When you pay a lawyer to get you out of prison it is considered bribery? Then payign fines is also bribery I suppose? Its a nice image. Pay your ticket for false parking and get jailed for bribing a police officer. To be fair he wasnt paying a lawyer to get him out of prison through the "legal" means, he was paying the guy to arrange a jail break! BUT putting the player against foes who will arrest, try and kill him for worshipping his god, or wearing green on a tuesday, or having blond hair is exaclty the same as i mentioned above ... having every enemy shout "Your under arrest" at him then revoking his paladinhood for not respecting some shambolic legal systems.... Why not have every one from the theives guild just walk past him and levy some made up tax on him .. then bust him down to gimped-fighter for tax evasion :rolleyes: Snake:Uh, wallet inspector. Paladin:Oh, here ya go. [gives him the parties money pouches] I believe that's all in order. Snake: Huh ho! I can't _believe_ that worked. Party Rogue: Heyy...that's not the wallet inspector! Paladin: Sorry couldn't take the risk of being excomunicated.
Phrennzy 08-28-05, 02:12 PM	However, one of the lawyers told me that he could get us out, for a certain price. I as the paladin and party leader carefully considered this and talked about it with the rest of the party in which we agreed. We bribed him, after some well rolled sense motives ofcourse. The consensus around that table is that it was bribery. "I can get you out, for a price." is not the lawyer asking for his fee. Paladins do not twist words and try to rationalize away things to slip by the wordings of their oath. Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. The ruling body that sentenced them to death is the legitimate authority in that area, yes? It is not honorable to make a backroom deal using a bribe to get what you want and act outside the system of law. You did what was right, by bribing the lawyer. You were presented with precious few options. But, by doing so you violated your code. What I would do: The paladin prays to his god and asks for forgiveness, and for guidance - what SHOULD he have done? This then puts the DM in a pickle. Was there any sort of action that the paladin could have done to avoid this atonement need? Or was it a no-win scenario? If too many of these come around, start multiclassing to cleric so you can give yourself Atonement. I would also ask the DM OOC what the Paladin could have done to avoid the atonement need. Then go get the atonement.
Derren S. 08-28-05, 02:14 PM	To be fair he wasnt paying a lawyer to get him out of prison through the "legal" means, he was paying the guy to arrange a jail break! How do you know that? The lawyer could have digged out a forgotten obscure law, pointed out mistakes when they were captured. Al the players and we know is that a lawyer told them that he can get them out if they pay him. "I can get you out, for a price." is not the lawyer asking for his fee. Why not? Isn't this exactly what lawyers do? Get you out for a price? The lawyer simply wanted to make some money when he got them out of jail (as opposed to do it for free).
Phrennzy 08-28-05, 02:16 PM	BUT putting the player against foes who will arrest, try and kill him for worshipping his god, or wearing green on a tuesday, or having blond hair is exaclty the same as i mentioned above ... having every enemy shout "Your under arrest" at him then revoking his paladinhood for not respecting some shambolic legal systems.... Why not have every one from the theives guild just walk past him and levy some made up tax on him .. then bust him down to gimped-fighter for tax evasion :rolleyes: Snake:Uh, wallet inspector. Paladin:Oh, here ya go. [gives him the parties money pouches] I believe that's all in order. Snake: Huh ho! I can't _believe_ that worked. Party rogueHeyy...that's not the wallet inspector! Paladin: Sorry couldn't take the risk of being excomunicated. Nah, the paladin is protected because these people in your examples do not represent 'legitimate authority'.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 02:21 PM	Nah, the paladin is protected because these people in your examples do not represent 'legitimate authority'. But how does the paladin know that? If he takes action against them without being 100% certain then he would incurr penalties... if you where going to rules lawyer the point. To us The Wallet Inspector is as legitimate as the Evil council sentancing them to death for minor offenses or religious freedom.... we really know nothing about them.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 02:23 PM	How do you know that? The lawyer could have digged out a forgotten obscure law, pointed out mistakes when they were captured. Al the players and we know is that a lawyer told them that he can get them out if they pay him. Why not? Isn't this exactly what lawyers do? Get you out for a price? The lawyer simply wanted to make some money when he got them out of jail (as opposed to do it for free). Its obvious what is being offered, you only need 1 rank Reading between the lines to work it out. The DM has made it even more apparenrt by slapping penalties on him for bribing the guy the pervert the cause of "justice".
Derren S. 08-28-05, 02:28 PM	Where you at the session? When some rich people (adventurers are rich) get thrown in jail without a trial and a lawyer comes in, tells them that they will be most likely be killed but he can get them out when they pay him it could equally mean that he has a (more or less) genial tactic to get them out legally or that he knows of a less legal way. I don't see how you can be 100% sure that it was the last of the two. Fact is that this was no bribery (as the lawyer approached them and the one who was paid had no direct power to get them out of the jail) and when the paladin didn't knew that he paid for something illegally (possible) there should be no penalties for him, even if it was illegally.
Dragonsblood 08-28-05, 02:31 PM	Technically it's bribery, but your DM seems to be doing a ****** job. This situation he put you in is tantamount to railroading, regardless of having a paladin in the party. And having a paladin in the party with a "plot hook" like this makes his DM skills shine even more... :banghead:
pres_man 08-28-05, 02:38 PM	Let's see, an organization is sentencing the paladin and his group for offenses they did not commit. This makes the organization an illegitmate authority in the paladin's eyes, and therefore not worthy of respect. A paladin enters into an agreement with an individual, in return for a certain price, the individual will help free the paladin and his group, from the above mentioned illegitmate authority. In this case the paladin has not broken his code, unless he knows for a fact the person working with him is evil (detect evil should tell one way or the other). If the guy is evil, then it depends on how the DM interpretes the paladin's code as to how much the paladin can work with the individual. If the person isn't evil then the only way this is a violation of his code is if he intends not to pay the price the individual specified (breaking an agreement). What if the individual had specified his price to be that the paladin must take his daughter to somewhere far from this place. Would it be considered a bribe then? Would it go against the paladin's code? What is the big problem here? The paladin is supporting a person who is going against an illegitmate authority, that in of itself does not break a paladin's code. Only if his support allows the person doing do evil and the paladin has a reasonable chance of knowing this, would it be a problem with his code.
Derren S. 08-28-05, 02:38 PM	Main Entry: brib·ery Function: noun Inflected Form: plural -er·ies : the crime of giving or taking a bribe Main Entry: bribe Function: noun : a benefit (as money) given, promised, or offered in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust (as an official or witness) Was this payment made to influence the lawyer? No, therefor it wasn't a bribe.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 02:44 PM	Person Of Trust = The lawyer Influence conduct = Getting him to get them out of jail via illigal means. Promised benefit = Money. It all fits your description perfectlty
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 02:49 PM	Let's see, an organization is sentencing the paladin and his group for offenses they did not commit. This makes the organization an illegitmate authority in the paladin's eyes, and therefore not worthy of respect. A paladin enters into an agreement with an individual, in return for a certain price, the individual will help free the paladin and his group, from the above mentioned illegitmate authority. Exaclty! the only grounds to bust the paladin is: [i]Not respecting legitimate authoriy[/i The authority proved themselves far from legitimate so there is no grounds to require him to attone. Yes it was a bribe but the only thing it harmed was a non-legitimate, evil society who murder and desorate bodies. His actions saved lives and also made it possible for them to escape and uncover this evil society for what it is. The greater good was served, the only thing harmed was an unjust legal system used as a front to legitimise murder and evil necromancy.
Derren S. 08-28-05, 02:49 PM	This is not influencing someone. They paid for a service which wasn't even illegal so far we know and in no way was that bribery as per definition. Except you consider it bribing when you pay your coiffeur to cut your hair or bribe the man at the gas station to fill your car with gas.
darkness ninja of light 08-28-05, 02:54 PM	They were put in jail for something they didn't do/didn't know. They were arrested by an evil government (or that would be a reasonable thing to assume under the circumstances) that they do not belong to. That's not a legitimate authority that the Paladin needs to worry about. The Paladin used bribery to help him escape an imprisonment by an illegitimate authority which otherwise would have let horribly evil things happen to others. Bribery to prevent evil things versus bribery to cover up evil things. Hmmm.....
pres_man 08-28-05, 02:56 PM	Its not a bribe, its a tip. :D
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 03:05 PM	This is not influencing someone. They paid for a service which wasn't even illegal so far we know and in no way was that bribery as per definition. Except you consider it bribing when you pay your coiffeur to cut your hair or bribe the man at the gas station to fill your car with gas. Darren why are you the only person in this thread who is assuming the DM is ruleing a bribe = paying a lawyer to be a lawyer??? You are the ONLY person who can not see that the lawyer did not even let this get as far as court (he even told them they would loose and be executed if it got that far) but infact took a cut out of the pormised money and greased palms to get the party out. The GM would have to be a mentaly deficient 6 year old to arrive at the conclusion paying for legitimate services = bribe ... so why are you just naturaly assuming that the DM is making this call?. Ok one more time .. nice and slowly... It was a bribe because the lawyer got them out of jail by bribing other or using contacts in an illigal manner! NOT using his skils as a lawyer... understand? This is the only logical assumption we can make becuase the only other one(i.e what you are saying) is so fluffing stupid we would have to assume the GM is totaly incompetant. So we have two possible routes for our assumption 1) The lawyer was talking about the party paying him to reprisent them and actualy got them off... and the DM is retarded enough to believe this is a bribe (the LEAST likey as it depends on the DM being dumber than a brick!) 2) The lawyer used illigal methods to get the players out in exchange for money.... (By FAR the most likley result given the nature of the situation and the society) So why do you choose go with the most outlandish option?
Chandaroon 08-28-05, 03:07 PM	Simply put ---- Quit nitpicking the game and play. Quests & attonements should be saved for truly heinous acts. Example : I bluffed the shop keeper into telling me the information that I want. Therefore I lied, which in transitive form means that I am dishonest. Oh No! I better perform a quest to make amends...... Yeah right. That's what this game is about. Go kill an evil wizard and get on with it. A Paladin PC is still mortal and will make mortal mistakes.
Crossover-Chronicler 08-28-05, 03:08 PM	The "bribe" was only dishonorable (and "honor" is where this one gets tricky, since the paladin code of conduct includes that nebulous "act honorably" requirement) if the jailbreak was dishinorable or contrary to the paladin's requirement to "respect legitimate authority." I contest that bowing to the will of a hostile system could be seen as equally dishonorable (somewhat like not answering an insult to one's homeland or deity). The jailbreak was only dishonorable if he recognized the legitimacy of the authorities. I don't think that a paladin is required to respect any system that band the worship of his deity - otherwise his only options be to forswear his deity every time he found himself in the domain of a hostile ruler, or be found in violation of those laws and his own code (disrespecting authority), losing his abilities either way. I don't think that a paladin is supposed to lose his powers every time he crosses the wrong border. Since the paladin isn't required to respect the corrupt law, I don't think he's required to sit through the ensuing kangaroo court. Paladins pay for services rendered all the time - food, lodgings, hirelings, healers, etc. Often they do so even when pursuing a holy cause, such as hiring laborers to rebuild a devastated village. Consequently, I don't think it's necessarily uncharacteristic of a paladin to pay people to "do the right thing." Which is all the paladin did here - paid a lawyer to ensure that innocent people were not murdered, reanimated, and enslaved.
Derren S. 08-28-05, 03:09 PM	How do you know what happened with the money? Are you the DM or are you telepathic? If not then you only know one of the lawyers told me that he could get us out, for a certain price. which says nothing about how this is done nor if it is legally or not. You make up most of the things you say. And more importantly the PCs also couldn't know what would happen and if it is legal or not so the paladin shouldn't be punished. Or do you regulary punish the PCs for things they don't know and can't influence? You would probably also remove the powers from a paladin when he gave a gold piece to a beggar when the beggar bought a dagger from the money and murdered someone with it.
Chandaroon 08-28-05, 03:14 PM	I'd like to add that I think that your DM is a chump, if that's the best moral dilema that he can come up with for your Paladin.
the dmg 08-28-05, 03:34 PM	You said that the lawyers said that "for a price" he could get you out, meaning he was already expecting you to give him something, and he would free you. Technically, that isn't bribery but rather a legitiment business transaction because he had offered to do this for you if you paid him. Agreed. Like others have said, you saved the lives of the party. I would have done the same thing if there was no other option.
Always-Late 08-28-05, 04:44 PM	If you're right, how can a paladin buy a lawyer? Lawyer: "Hey, I understand you're in a fix here. I'm Recrys, from the local law firm. If you'll pay me for my services, I'll argue your case for you. You know you're opposition's got lawyers as well." Paladin: "Well, I don't know jack about legal advice, so sure. How much?" DM: "Atone. You gave a bribe."
Tzor 08-28-05, 05:49 PM	I think there can be an argument as to whether or not this was technically bribery. Personally I would side with the argument that it was bribery, but that question is actualy moot. The real question is under the case of duress, is the paying of a bribe to a "lawful" official of the lawful government for the porpose of a lawful and good act an offense that warrents atonement? I believe the answer is clearly no. First of all I would say that bribery is not by any means an "evil" act. Second I don't see a probition against paying bribes as a part of the Paladin's Code of Conduct in the PBH. The paladin did not lie, cheat, use poison, and so forth. In some corrupt govermnents, bribery is both a form of taxation and a form of manditatory tipping. It's not something that a paladin should like, but being a part of the system of "law" it is something he needs to obey (unless it would result in an evil act) and perhaps change through lawful means.
Evitharil 08-28-05, 05:55 PM	First of all, thanks for all the replies. I'll explain stuff some more so I can clear stuff up. I was well aware that it was indeed bribery, because in the way this was handled it could not have been legal fee, I mean, we had to keep the talking down and we paid the man while the guard (he was in on it) pretended to look the other way. We didn't have to pay a fee for the lawyer, because they were pro-deo or something, they were all pretty crappy, but free. I was also well aware that bribery was very illegal here, but I had to take my chances. However, in my original post I wasn't really clear about if it was really bribery or just a fee, sorry for that. Well, so, I paid most of the bribe, but we got screwed over. He was a spy for the government there or something so now we lost our money and we have an additional problem now that we're also charged with attempting to bribe. Someone suggested that I should have fought my way out of there, I fought as long as I could to protect the party and myself but I went down eventually because they kept on coming, that's when we were captured. I almost died but I was healed just in time. I am however heavily wounded and a jailbreak didn't seem like a good idea at 3 hp in the middle of a huge city in the underdark or whatever it was. Also, I suggested to speak for and defend my party & me instead of getting a lawyer. But I was told not to this, because we would have an even bigger chance of a heavier sentence because it would give the impression that we were poor bums or something. So we hired the most incompetent, most forgetfull lawyer, for he was the only one not evil, and I did not agree with hiring a perhaps better but evil lawyer, making the party ****** at me lol. I love playing a Paladin but stuff like this just sucks :p
Loren Pechtel 08-28-05, 10:55 PM	First: There have been charges of railroading. I can think of two other possibilities: 1) The party picked a fight they should have run from, the DM improvised a way to save them. 2) There was some other way out that was overlooked and the DM improvised another way out. Second: I think there's a problem with the Paladin's code. Yes, he's supposed to cooperate with legitimate authority. However he's not supposed to work with evil. I don't think he has to obey legitimate but evil authority.
ShadowDragon8685 08-28-05, 11:18 PM	This is why D&D needs to clarify the Alignment system, and especially Paladins, more clearly in a Core book. Release the Complete Morality today!!!!!!1!111!!!1!11!1111!11!1!!!!one oneeleven That said, this was railroading. Evil authority is never legitimate in the eyes of any Paladin of Good alignment. However, your DM is going to be a dick, be a dick right back. Lose faith in Bahamut, allow yourself to be a gimp-fighter for awhile, change your alignment to CG, take up worship of a goddess like Eilistraee or Sel'une or Corellon Larethian, and annoint thyself a Paladin of Freedom. Problem solved.
Akharu 08-29-05, 10:40 AM	Paladins do not twist words and try to rationalize away things to slip by the wordings of their oath. You did what was right, by bribing the lawyer. You were presented with precious few options. But, by doing so you violated your code. Then go get the atonement. I'm with Phrennzy. Sometimes doing the right thing isn't doing the right thing. Do I think bribery is wrong? Absolutely. Would I do it to save the life of my friends? In a second. If your god feels that it was a big enough offense to lose your powers over (which I disagree with) then seek atonement and try for a better solution next time.
KoboldSlayer 08-29-05, 11:05 AM	Oooh... I have paladin codes for my paladins (so everyone is on equal footing of knowing what is/is not permitted) and bribery is specifically forbidden for a paladin "even if it is an accepted practice in the region". So a paladin that did this in my campaign would definitely have fallen. However, they would not have fallen so hard as to be beyond atonement because the bribery did serve a greater good. So they should find an atonement spell (and probably a quest involved with it) as a result. It would be a setback to the character (or an opportunity to be the center of attention and get some good roleplaying if you look at the silver lining), but I would not consider it too harsh. That is only because the code I and my players wrote up includes bribery as unlawful and wrong for a paladin. If it were not that black-and-white, then I would probably not have this cause a paladin's fall. (Someone mentioned the paladin's price getting everyone else killed...a very real possibility. But, then, isn't pride evil, too? Especially if it brings about someone else's demise?)
Apathy Man 08-29-05, 01:08 PM	So lt me get this strait. 1. The paladin and his party are adventuring in an evil society. (no problem) 2. You are attacked with waves of bad guys untill the party is defeated and jailed. (ok not so bad) 3. You are arrested on trumped up charges and are still expected to obey the laws of the land. (Paladin thinks OK, maybe we can still gat a fair trial, not everybody is corrupt) 4. You are told not to defend yourself in court but to use an appointed attorney. (Hey, maybe we can find someone we can trust?) 5. The only non-evil attorney you can get tells you that they will execute you if it goes to trial and the only way out is to grease the palms of some officials. (It's not very honorable but you haven't gotten half a fair shake in this corrupt place so why not and it's probably the way they do things here) 6. The attorney betrays you so now you have more charges and are out the money. (now you've lost your paladin powers and have to attone) At this point I would be pretty tired of the railroading and would wait for the trial. No matter what hook the DM threw at us for a way out, I would flat out refuse. If the jail caught on fire and forced an evacuation I would not run, I would wait outside to ba taken into custody because obviously bahamut wants me to obey the law of this corrupt land. When the trial came I would give a huge speech telling all the officals what I thought of their lawfull society and how it failed the populace in an attempt to get the most vile public execution possible. Hoping this would spark a revolution of the masses for social reform. Then I would petition my dm to come back as a risen martyr to lead the revolt against corruption.
LCD2YOU 08-29-05, 01:12 PM	Derren S is completely correct here. First: The Paladin did not offer up the bribe as his starting point. If I read the OP's description correctly, nobody in the party "offered up" a bribe to start with as well. Second: The lawyer was PAID for his services. While anyone could guess how the lawyer was going to use the money is anyone's guess. Third: As the place is a LE society, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the MO for such a place is specfic groups over others. In this case it's the group with the cash that gets away with things. Fourth: What were the Paladin's options? Die horribly and have his and their companions corpses violated and animated as laborers? Yeah, even if it was a bribe, which it is not, that is a no brainer. Fifth: I think the DM needed a plot hook and did a classic RR on the party. Sixth: As others have said, LE is seldom seen as "legitimate authority" by any Paladin worth their salt. The best that a Paladin could do for a LE society is offer "diplomatic recognition". That type of a society has no real laws in any situation. Seventh: What are the Paladin's choices? For those who say he violated his code by bribery (which I still say is a no go), I want to hear what you would of done as the player. KoboldSlayer I would love to hear how the Paladin in question could have kept their and their comrade's skin and get out of that one. It is easy to say the Paladin bribed but it is hard to offer up a real solution. Also, what does "pride" have to with it? Because the Paladin has a higher price, gee a LE society loves ot make examples of those who oppose it, I am unsure what point you are trying get across here. Please enlighten me.
LCD2YOU 08-29-05, 01:17 PM	So lt me get this strait. 1. The paladin and his party are adventuring in an evil society. (no problem) 2. You are attacked with waves of bad guys untill the party is defeated and jailed. (ok not so bad) 3. You are arrested on trumped up charges and are still expected to obey the laws of the land. (Paladin thinks OK, maybe we can still gat a fair trial, not everybody is corrupt) 4. You are told not to defend yourself in court but to use an appointed attorney. (Hey, maybe we can find someone we can trust?) 5. The only non-evil attorney you can get tells you that they will execute you if it goes to trial and the only way out is to grease the palms of some officials. (It's not very honorable but you haven't gotten half a fair shake in this corrupt place so why not and it's probably the way they do things here) 6. The attorney betrays you so now you have more charges and are out the money. (now you've lost your paladin powers and have to attone) At this point I would be pretty tired of the railroading and would wait for the trial. No matter what hook the DM threw at us for a way out, I would flat out refuse. If the jail caught on fire and forced an evacuation I would not run, I would wait outside to ba taken into custody because obviously bahamut wants me to obey the law of this corrupt land. When the trial came I would give a huge speech telling all the officals what I thought of their lawfull society and how it failed the populace in an attempt to get the most vile public execution possible. Hoping this would spark a revolution of the masses for social reform. Then I would petition my dm to come back as a risen martyr to lead the revolt against corruption.Good post. It'll cost a character and perhaps some more mind ****ing by the DM. But if your DM is that much of a chump, find a new game. The DM railroaded you and that's it. Change your class and become a fighter. Tell your DM what HE did sucked and he can find a better way to plot hook and railroad you if the transaction is already done.
pres_man 08-29-05, 01:56 PM	At this point the best thing to do is commit sepaku, and hopefully gain your honor back for the next world. Then inform the DM that you'll be playing a CE rogue from now on.
wrecan 08-29-05, 02:03 PM	For me, the bottom line is that the DM should have warned you that the bribing of an official would be a violation of your CoC. As people have pointed out, it's not necessarily so. Had you known ahead of time, then it would be your choice. Choosing to be martyred ala Apathy Man's post is a legitimate character choice. The DM appears to have railroaded you into a situation. Maybe this is all a prelude to something. Maybe the trumped-up charges are going to resolve themselves with the party being ordered to go on some non-evil quest which will expunge their record *and* cause more good in the world. And maybe your DM is a d***. Either way, you should talk to him about this atonement issue. He should have warned you before you tried to bribe someone what the consequences will be.
Gedrin 08-29-05, 02:45 PM	Yes, you did bribe the lawyer. You broke the laws of this land. You broke the law when you were being a follower of Bahamut too. You're a bad pally breaking all the laws here. No. The laws of this land are clearly not just, and possibly not even valid considering the lack of concern about people actually having broken them. They can call them laws all they want, but it's very doubtful they're enforced equitably or justly. The society probably isn't LE, but rather used to be LE, and is now NE, likely with a powerful self interested dictator who ignores the laws himself. I'm sure that in this society, interfering with agents of the government is illegal. It is everywhere. However, these government agents apparently raise the souls of innocent men, executed from crimes they didn't commit, and force them to do menial labor. Pallies are pretty much required to interfere with such people. Things do not appear to be arbitrary. Arrest is arbitrary. Punishment also appears arbitrary. The officials are corrupt. I suppose you could pass a law that says anyone can be arrested, for any/no reason, and punished for doing nothing, even to the point of death and soul slavery... That sounds a lot like "I'm strongest and can do whatever I want", CE. Things are not good...obviously. The society is neither Lawful or Good, and buying assistance to work against this society is not wrong. You need to be concious of the consequences of paying off bad people though, as that comes close to associating with them.
pres_man 08-29-05, 02:50 PM	If you were arrested, how did you have any money?
LCD2YOU 08-29-05, 03:02 PM	If you were arrested, how did you have any money?Yeah, I didn't want to point that little fact out. It's my guess that if one is arrested and taken into custody by a LE/NE society, once you are in prison, your stuff gets "redistributed". It helps keep those in power by removing annoying things like money and weapons. Still, the DM needed to have the Pally "bribe" someone, that leads to the Pally losing his powers, which leads to an attonement, that leads to a quest which means it was railroading. Come on Pres_man, get with the program!
pres_man 08-29-05, 03:06 PM	Yeah, I didn't want to point that little fact out. It's my guess that if one is arrested and taken into custody by a LE/NE society, once you are in prison, your stuff gets "redistributed". It helps keep those in power by removing annoying things like money and weapons. Still, the DM needed to have the Pally "bribe" someone, that leads to the Pally losing his powers, which leads to an attonement, that leads to a quest which means it was railroading. Come on Pres_man, get with the program! Doh!!! Of course, you are correct. What an idiot I am! ;)
Callista 08-29-05, 04:12 PM	I as the paladin and party leader carefully considered this and talked about it with the rest of the party in which we agreed. We bribed him, after some well rolled sense motives ofcourse. Now, my DM says that I have to find an atonement spell, for I have done something that a Paladin shouldn't do, is he right or is he wrong? I mean, what should I have done otherwise? I was trying to save the party and myself. Because we just knew that there wasn't alot of chance for us to get out of here if we followed the law. Their law was corrupt and incorrect, and most importantly, they were evil. Did I do something that wasn't acceptable for a Paladin and do I need to seek atonement, or was I right for doing it? That depends. Is bribing someone consistent with what your character would do? If so, whether it lost you your powers or not, you did the right thing. That said: Is bribery something a paladin would do? No, definitely not: It's not honorable. Your character committed a Chaotic act, but not an Evil one. However, if you had good reasons to believe that this was the only way to get out alive, then your Paladin chose to do something against his code rather than to allow innocent people (his companions) to die. This is one of those Good-Versus-Law decisions that tend to put Paladins in tough spots. Does the Paladin have to atone? I would say not. He didn't commit an Evil act; and he was pretty much forced into the Chaotic one. Your character would, however, hate what he had to do. It's against everything he believes in. He might want to atone, just because he wants to make up for doing something that's against his Code (fairly common with Lawful characters: Their code is internal as well as external; and often they will "police" themselves because Law represents what they believe in); but he shouldn't lose his powers, since he didn't turn non-Lawful (the fact that he considered the decision carefully tells me that) and he didn't do anything Evil. All in all, a well-played scenario. Grats. [Edit:] I assumed the Paladin had his money at his home base... and that, knowing he was a Paladin, a promise from him would've forced him to pay up... is that too big an assumption to make?
Pyritefoolsgold 08-29-05, 04:47 PM	This was not bribery on the part of the paladin, this was outright extortion on the part of the officials in charge. This was not bribery anymore than a man coming in to a tavern with a sword and demanding that the innkeeper pay "protection tax" is bribery when the innkeeper pays him rather than get his head chopped off. The officials of this place did not care about justice, or about laws, and are thus nowhere near legitimate.
Leewei 08-29-05, 05:07 PM	Okay, a paladin of Bahamut redistributes a bit of his hoard to get himself and his buddies released. Did this strengthen the grip of evil dragons upon the world? No. Did this erode the rule of Law in the area the adventurers were tried? No. The trial was rigged; they had no expectation of fairness. The paladin's actions weren't exemplary, but neither were they a gross violation of code. I suggest you have your DM read up on the "Should this paladin lose his powers" threads in the DM sections. It won't likely solve anything, but the bleeding eyeballs he'll get for it are just retribution for the crud he put you through.
pres_man 08-29-05, 05:08 PM	Here's the atonement needed for the situation: "Dang! That S.o.B. took our money, man I knew I shouldn't have agreed to paying that guy off." There you go. No quest, no casting of the atonement spell, none of that nonsense, merely an acknowledgement that it was something your paladin should have known was "wrong" (wrong not evil). You were pressed and made a poor choice, no big deal, even paladins can mess up from time to time. If a DM is requiring a big atonement for something like this then he needs to rethink why he is even allowing the class.
GreyLord 08-29-05, 05:24 PM	I say play along with the DM and see if the DM is going somewhere with this. Perhaps the DM has a plot twist or something in store. However, was it wrong of the Paladin? That's debatable. The Paladin is first and formost lawful to his superiors...aka...his deity and the interests of his deity. If these characters are lawful evil, it is probable that what they were doing were against the laws of his deity, hence it could be seen as their laws are in truth...unlawful...aka. Secondly, if their laws are evil, than it would behoove the Paladin to do all he can to destroy evil laws and an evil society. On the otherhand, if he is a citizen of their land and has been brought up to respect their laws...his act could be what one could call a catch 22. Any way he choose he'd loose his paladinhood. He did bribery, and probably broke out without following the laws of the land. Now if he was from another land, especially if his land is not on the best of terms with the land he was in...it is another time when he's probably not under too many obligations to follow the laws of the other land. What a Paladin NEEDS to be loyal to is his own moral code. Now if his moral code says that he cannot bribe...then that is an automatic act which may or may not be atoned for. It's all situational and hence I can't really say whether it was a bad act for the Paladin or not. I can say that if your DM is decent and hopefully good at DMing then perhaps he has something up his sleeve to further the story or game along, so playing along might be in your best interest.