A party without a "tank"? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A party without a "tank"? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WayneTheGame
07-11-06, 09:22 AM Looking for some thoughts on how a party without a tank can still have some staying power.. my group currently consists of (5th level):

- Elf Duskblade (me, however I am thinking of changing characters... see below)
- Human Rogue
- Tiefling Wizard (Necromancer) with an undead warrior familiar
- Human Rogue/Sorcerer
- Half-Dragon Cleric (not always there)

I am pretty much the group's damage dealer; however I'm getting a little bored with my one dimensional, cliche, Star Wars ripoff, power-hungry character and I'm debating dropping him in favor of a Hexblade (which I love the flavor of, even if the mechanics are slightly lacking..). However, I've been giving it some thought and this would essentially mean that the group has no hardcore damage dealing character. I've never been in a situation like this (I usually play the tank), so I'm wondering if I choose to do it how the party could survive drawn out fights, since aside from the cleric (who is only 2nd level due to LA, but he has wings!) we're all lightly armored. Note that I haven't built the theoretically Hexblade yet.. it's still only an idea and even then I plan to build him the "right" way by making a concept first, not a set of stats.

Anyone have any thoughts on a situation like this? If you've experienced something similar, how did you survive? Better coordinate efforts with other PCs (something my group tends NOT to do; we tend to split up a lot)?
Dolo
07-11-06, 09:31 AM Well I can say this, you dont think about fighters till you dont have enough or none at all. My party for a while only had one Tank, and considering everybody else was a D6 or D4 it usually meant no cover for the casters.

So just get used to facing the reality that a mixed party with low hitdice means someone will get it in the neck, if multiple enemies hit your position. Or just hire some NPC mercs to front for your group....but that will cost money.
Boshi
07-11-06, 10:44 AM Can't the necromancer animate/summon undead meatshields for you?
Morlen Crutz
07-11-06, 11:34 AM Take Leadership if your high enouh lvl ..

Take a fighter cohort you have your meat shield. Sure he is a couple of lvls lower than you but he should still have a decent AC and hits. Plus you can load him down with decent equipment and weapons as you guys won't be using them. :)

Thats what I would do anyway.

Morlen
OravennasBrother
07-11-06, 11:45 AM I almost always play a heavy fighter (Unless I'm a Ranger in a Fighter heavy party) so I never run into that problem. My advice is make sure you are faster than your allies so you will live, then when they die encourage some of them to create fighters.
Nived
07-11-06, 11:52 AM I don't know, I out tank my party's fighter (much to his annoyance) with my Dwarven Tin Can Cleric. With a cleric and a Duskblade you should be able to get by alright.
kelvinaw273
07-11-06, 12:36 PM Your Rogue and Necromancer might want to beef themselves up with a level or two of fighter, but otherwise you should manage OK with that party. Remember to summon allies and use defensive spells and you will last just fine.
Noria Merfolk Mage
07-11-06, 01:12 PM A party can do fine without a tank once it learns to strike first and destroy the enemy before they can strike back.

A party of rogues and wizards, striking from surprise, going for big-damage spells and sneak attacks, can make nearly any DM cry.

Tactics my friend. There's a reason real soldiers don't "tank" the enemy.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
07-11-06, 07:01 PM You have a cleric. That's enough of a tank.
arjomanes
07-11-06, 07:28 PM The wizard and the sorceror should be the major offensive characters. The fighter's key benefit is defense and battlefield control. Combat Expertise can help the meat shield block off the path to the vulnerable wizard. The key is AC. If no one has good AC the enemy can walk right through all of you and you can't control the battlefield. If your party has to waste rounds withdrawing or retreating, or your spellcasters always have to cast defensively, you're not going to make it long.

Still, a rogue, a cleric, and a hexblade could still be able to protect the wizards. The cleric can buff, and with enough armor can protect the wizards, while the hexblade and rogue work together to infiltrate enemy lines. And the sorceror should be able to make ranged attacks (with sneak attack) even if he's out of spells. If the rogue takes a few levels in fighter, that will give him the BAB, HPs and some feats to survive melee combat.
Juzzman
07-11-06, 08:18 PM You have casters and rogues, if melee is becoming an issue for you without a tank, consider increasing the amount of summoning you do. Summoning one big beefy monster for a temporary meatshield, or if that's gone use lower level spells (and even wands for the rogues) to create enough melee force to keep your opponents busy while you nuke em.
If you get a lot of encounters per day you would need to think about putting more resources into buying/creating more wands/scrolls so your casters and ancilary support dont run out of firepower completely.

Juz
togapika
07-11-06, 09:11 PM Just get the necromancers skeleton familiar to tank. I was in a no tank game with one, and that's what we did. Worked out fine.
clarkvalentine
07-12-06, 07:03 PM Meh. Hopefully your DM will account for the party makeup. I GM Eberron for a party that's one scout, one ninja, and a couple of rogues - it works great. Of course, it's not a typical dungeon-crawling party (they're private investigators in Fairhaven), but it's still a lot of fun to GM a game where Damage Per Round isn't anyone's primary concern.
solbergb
07-12-06, 07:08 PM There are a lot of ways to deal damage other than in melee.

The rest of the party should be able to pick up the load (rogue, sorcerer and wizard to name three)

Doing without a "blocker" requires skirmish tactics instead of just standing there like a goober and hacking, but we ran a party from level 1-13 with no "AC tank" and with nearly the entire party at -1 or +0 constitution modifiers.
TarlSS
07-13-06, 09:44 AM Don't do things that would necessitate a fighter and adjust your tactics. If you can't adjust your tactics to deal without melee tanks...well, you're just not very good tactically, or your GM is out to get you.
babysamurai
07-13-06, 10:04 AM Party composition doesn't matter if you have a good DM and smart players.
Zillah
07-14-06, 02:06 AM guys not the familiar. why? even though its undead and all, it still only has 1/2 the necro's hp. that is NOT a meatshield. what you need is animate undead. hell get the wizard to do the dread necro. err thats a real necro. i <3 te necros!
but undead should be a meatshield. the wizard should have plenty of black gems worth whatever to make undead that are permanent for your party to have. after a while, he should have an army if the DM don't screw him randomly. can you imagine an army? when i say army i mean like 20 at least. you guys could do nothing. reminds me of diablo 2 LOD. but im sure the DM wouldn't allow an whole army to be on your side for long

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WayneTheGame 07-11-06, 09:22 AM	Looking for some thoughts on how a party without a tank can still have some staying power.. my group currently consists of (5th level): - Elf Duskblade (me, however I am thinking of changing characters... see below) - Human Rogue - Tiefling Wizard (Necromancer) with an undead warrior familiar - Human Rogue/Sorcerer - Half-Dragon Cleric (not always there) I am pretty much the group's damage dealer; however I'm getting a little bored with my one dimensional, cliche, Star Wars ripoff, power-hungry character and I'm debating dropping him in favor of a Hexblade (which I love the flavor of, even if the mechanics are slightly lacking..). However, I've been giving it some thought and this would essentially mean that the group has no hardcore damage dealing character. I've never been in a situation like this (I usually play the tank), so I'm wondering if I choose to do it how the party could survive drawn out fights, since aside from the cleric (who is only 2nd level due to LA, but he has wings!) we're all lightly armored. Note that I haven't built the theoretically Hexblade yet.. it's still only an idea and even then I plan to build him the "right" way by making a concept first, not a set of stats. Anyone have any thoughts on a situation like this? If you've experienced something similar, how did you survive? Better coordinate efforts with other PCs (something my group tends NOT to do; we tend to split up a lot)?
Dolo 07-11-06, 09:31 AM	Well I can say this, you dont think about fighters till you dont have enough or none at all. My party for a while only had one Tank, and considering everybody else was a D6 or D4 it usually meant no cover for the casters. So just get used to facing the reality that a mixed party with low hitdice means someone will get it in the neck, if multiple enemies hit your position. Or just hire some NPC mercs to front for your group....but that will cost money.
Boshi 07-11-06, 10:44 AM	Can't the necromancer animate/summon undead meatshields for you?
Morlen Crutz 07-11-06, 11:34 AM	Take Leadership if your high enouh lvl .. Take a fighter cohort you have your meat shield. Sure he is a couple of lvls lower than you but he should still have a decent AC and hits. Plus you can load him down with decent equipment and weapons as you guys won't be using them. :) Thats what I would do anyway. Morlen
OravennasBrother 07-11-06, 11:45 AM	I almost always play a heavy fighter (Unless I'm a Ranger in a Fighter heavy party) so I never run into that problem. My advice is make sure you are faster than your allies so you will live, then when they die encourage some of them to create fighters.
Nived 07-11-06, 11:52 AM	I don't know, I out tank my party's fighter (much to his annoyance) with my Dwarven Tin Can Cleric. With a cleric and a Duskblade you should be able to get by alright.
kelvinaw273 07-11-06, 12:36 PM	Your Rogue and Necromancer might want to beef themselves up with a level or two of fighter, but otherwise you should manage OK with that party. Remember to summon allies and use defensive spells and you will last just fine.
Noria Merfolk Mage 07-11-06, 01:12 PM	A party can do fine without a tank once it learns to strike first and destroy the enemy before they can strike back. A party of rogues and wizards, striking from surprise, going for big-damage spells and sneak attacks, can make nearly any DM cry. Tactics my friend. There's a reason real soldiers don't "tank" the enemy.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-11-06, 07:01 PM	You have a cleric. That's enough of a tank.
arjomanes 07-11-06, 07:28 PM	The wizard and the sorceror should be the major offensive characters. The fighter's key benefit is defense and battlefield control. Combat Expertise can help the meat shield block off the path to the vulnerable wizard. The key is AC. If no one has good AC the enemy can walk right through all of you and you can't control the battlefield. If your party has to waste rounds withdrawing or retreating, or your spellcasters always have to cast defensively, you're not going to make it long. Still, a rogue, a cleric, and a hexblade could still be able to protect the wizards. The cleric can buff, and with enough armor can protect the wizards, while the hexblade and rogue work together to infiltrate enemy lines. And the sorceror should be able to make ranged attacks (with sneak attack) even if he's out of spells. If the rogue takes a few levels in fighter, that will give him the BAB, HPs and some feats to survive melee combat.
Juzzman 07-11-06, 08:18 PM	You have casters and rogues, if melee is becoming an issue for you without a tank, consider increasing the amount of summoning you do. Summoning one big beefy monster for a temporary meatshield, or if that's gone use lower level spells (and even wands for the rogues) to create enough melee force to keep your opponents busy while you nuke em. If you get a lot of encounters per day you would need to think about putting more resources into buying/creating more wands/scrolls so your casters and ancilary support dont run out of firepower completely. Juz
togapika 07-11-06, 09:11 PM	Just get the necromancers skeleton familiar to tank. I was in a no tank game with one, and that's what we did. Worked out fine.
clarkvalentine 07-12-06, 07:03 PM	Meh. Hopefully your DM will account for the party makeup. I GM Eberron for a party that's one scout, one ninja, and a couple of rogues - it works great. Of course, it's not a typical dungeon-crawling party (they're private investigators in Fairhaven), but it's still a lot of fun to GM a game where Damage Per Round isn't anyone's primary concern.
solbergb 07-12-06, 07:08 PM	There are a lot of ways to deal damage other than in melee. The rest of the party should be able to pick up the load (rogue, sorcerer and wizard to name three) Doing without a "blocker" requires skirmish tactics instead of just standing there like a goober and hacking, but we ran a party from level 1-13 with no "AC tank" and with nearly the entire party at -1 or +0 constitution modifiers.
TarlSS 07-13-06, 09:44 AM	Don't do things that would necessitate a fighter and adjust your tactics. If you can't adjust your tactics to deal without melee tanks...well, you're just not very good tactically, or your GM is out to get you.
babysamurai 07-13-06, 10:04 AM	Party composition doesn't matter if you have a good DM and smart players.
Zillah 07-14-06, 02:06 AM	guys not the familiar. why? even though its undead and all, it still only has 1/2 the necro's hp. that is NOT a meatshield. what you need is animate undead. hell get the wizard to do the dread necro. err thats a real necro. i <3 te necros! but undead should be a meatshield. the wizard should have plenty of black gems worth whatever to make undead that are permanent for your party to have. after a while, he should have an army if the DM don't screw him randomly. can you imagine an army? when i say army i mean like 20 at least. you guys could do nothing. reminds me of diablo 2 LOD. but im sure the DM wouldn't allow an whole army to be on your side for long