Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saragon42 07-18-07, 12:00 PM	I've posted questions before about this character in other forums, but with the interesting developments of my last session and an "Ah-hah!" moment in my head, I'm looking for some more advice. (I'm new to anything that isn't a cleric or monk, so please forgive some fairly basic questions about arcane casters.) After our DM corrected errors in how he'd calculated XP and level adjustments, my aasimar sorceror "reached" Sorc 3 at the start of the session, picking up a 0th-level and a 1st-level spell. He's a force mage archetype, but with two force spells already learned (magic missile and mage armor), I figured something that could help the other party members (a ninja, an ogre cleric and a fighter) might be somewhat more useful. So I picked Grease for its ability to slow things moving across it for half speed, thinking I'd trade it out at 4th level. "Somewhat more useful"? A ranged disarm against fighters, mages and artificers combined with a way to knock opponents prone? I'm an idiot. Fortunately, I appear to be a lucky idiot. We had one combat encounter that session; it lasted three rounds and I cast Grease twice, each time effectively neutralizing an opponent. So despite my original intent of building a force mage who specializes in battlefield control spells (which in my head was basically "wall of force"), I'm apparently very bad at knowing which spells are good control spells and which aren't. I got lucky this time, but that's not something I can depend on. Were I a wizard I'd happily just load my spellbooks up with whichever spells I could find and experiment, but sorcerors need more planning. So that brings up two questions: 1) The effect of a grease spell on an object is fairly straightforward, but what exactly happens to people moving across a greased patch of terrain? My understanding is that if they make a Reflex save they stand still and if they fail they fall; and if they try to move next turn they make a DC 10 Balance check to move at half speed, and failure means they save vs. falling again. Am I right? Or am I missing a detail or two? 2) What other hidden control gems are out there? The Argent Savant prestige class I'm aiming for requires five force spells, and I've got two already; but in a party that can do a LOT of physical damage both my character and I are beginning to feel that being a blaster is pretty useless. In-character and out, I'm moving this sorceror towards his control role, but my knowledge of arcane spells is (as stated above) so lacking that I could really use some guidance here. (For the record, everything from Core and the Spell Compendium is allowed, and my DM is willing to entertain requests from any book.)
Apocolypse_77 07-18-07, 12:29 PM	my favorite spell of all time is Web (2nd lvl arcane in PHB) It is an AMAZING crowd control spell. First off there is no spell resistance on it as it is a conjuration spell (this is an assumption not fact, don't have my books here). There is a single reflex save and if characters fail it they are completely imobile, to get past this effect they must make a DC 20 STR check (damn that is tough to make, even for most fighters) or a DC 25 escape artist check (also very hard to make unless you have ranks in it). Even if they do make the relfex save or STR/escape art check they still must devote entire rounds to moving and must make a STR check to move (for every 5 points above 10 they roll they can move 5 feet IE. check of 15 =5 feet movement for an entire round, check of 20 means 10 feet movement for entire round). Top this off with some creative utility (makeshift bridges if you can cover up the sticky parts) and if you have a lenient DM you can make some very creative uses for it (one time i webbed a dragons wings to its body and it fell from the sky) all in all it is definatly my favorite spell and its top uses are that of crowd control.
Puca 07-18-07, 03:59 PM	1) The effect of a grease spell on an object is fairly straightforward, but what exactly happens to people moving across a greased patch of terrain? My understanding is that if they make a Reflex save they stand still and if they fail they fall; and if they try to move next turn they make a DC 10 Balance check to move at half speed, and failure means they save vs. falling again. Am I right? Or am I missing a detail or two?That sounds right. If they fail by 5 or more they fall. One of the big things I see that you havent mentioned is related to your ninja: If you are trying to balance, and dont have 5 ranks or more in the Balance skill, you are denied your Dex to AC, which means that most people trying to move through your greased area are going to be subject to the ninjas Sudden Strike ability. Very helpful spell. Also, cast on anyone who might be at risk of being grappled or grabbed. It gives a pretty significant bonus to their escape artist checks. 2) What other hidden control gems are out there? The Argent Savant prestige class I'm aiming for requires five force spells, and I've got two already; but in a party that can do a LOT of physical damage both my character and I are beginning to feel that being a blaster is pretty useless. Direct damage can be a great way to go, but it is really all characters like fighters can do. Either theyll be better and youll feel marginalized, or youll be better and marginalize them. Either way, it is often more fun to go another way, and battlefield control is a great way. Enlarge Person: This can, when paired with the right party member, be an awesome battlefield control option. My ideal guy is a barbarian with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, but with any big, strong guy, it increases his strength and gives him a bigger weapon for even more damage. I think of it as a battlefield control spell because of the size and reach. A regular, medium melee guy threatens 8 squares. A large guy with 10' reach threatens 24 squares. This has a tremendous impact on the behavior of intelligent opponents. Silent Image: It is good at battlefield control because it can be almost anything. Walls are a good example. Creatures that want to get to you will not run through a wall to do it. They will go around, or look for a way over. Ergo, you can make them stay where you want them to stay, or go to where you want them to go. Even better, if your ally interacts with the wall and saves (which he should, since this will be tactic you worked out) he will see through the wall, and the opponent wont. De facto invisibility! Shoot arrows through the wall. (Its an illusion; give it arrow slits.) Summon Monster: The creatures you summon are rarely strong enough to take on opponents of your CR, but they can block off areas, thwart escapes, grapple bad guys, whatever you might want to do, they can try. Put them at risk. Who cares if they die?
Phrennzy 07-18-07, 05:25 PM	I just made a Sorc recently, and this board helped me deck him out with spells. Magic Missile and Mage Armor obviously. I also took Grease. (And Shocking Grasp, because I plan to be up front in melee). 2nd Level: Alter Self and Scorching Ray. Alter Self is a beaut because of the natural armor you can acquire with it. Scorching ray is just monstrous. 3rd: Haste. Haste is great because it's a buff for your side rather than an attack - which means there is no chance for it to fail. Suddenly your fighters are getting more attacks, and that ninja gets extra movement so he can get around for back attacks without having to move into AoO squares. The extra movement also allows a quick retreat. I also bought a wand of Enlarge Person. It cost 750gp, so for basically 15gp each use, I can turn our monk (our frontline fighter) into a monster with 2d6 unarmed strikes from 10' away, and it lasts 10 rounds. Who needs longer than that? Totally worth it. Web is my most hated spell as a DM. The DCs just seem ridiculously high. Maybe it's because the wizard in the party was always tossing it around, but it seemed overpowered to me. I didn't nerf it or anything, and once I even used it on the party (hilarity ensued). So that's a good one to have. Protection from Evil is a great spell because it not only gives you a bonus to AC, but it completely blocks out summoned creatures, regardless of level. Add to that it's help against mental control, and you have a great spell for use against that Vampiric Conjurer. Sleep is a good one - its a great low level AoE. At an average of 5hd affected, you are taking out quite a few kobolds, goblins, etc - as well as orcs/hobgoblins. Color Spray is just as useful for taking out a large number of opponents at once, and works on more powerful creatures. Glitterdust is also a nice AoE, and takes out multiple opponents without causing damage or noise. Fog Cloud is useful for ruining the attacks of archers who hang back to pepper the party. Just plop it on them and force them to move forward into melee range or retreat. Great for targetting murder holes or covering a retreat of your own.
Saragon42 07-18-07, 06:33 PM	That sounds right. If they fail by 5 or more they fall. One of the big things I see that you havent mentioned is related to your ninja: If you are trying to balance, and dont have 5 ranks or more in the Balance skill, you are denied your Dex to AC, which means that most people trying to move through your greased area are going to be subject to the ninjas Sudden Strike ability. Very helpful spell. Also, cast on anyone who might be at risk of being grappled or grabbed. It gives a pretty significant bonus to their escape artist checks. I can't believe I missed the Dex-denial aspect of Grease, too; I guess that's what comes of having a DM who never requires Balance checks. The best part is that our ninja is actually a dvati (a Dragon magazine race that's basically two mindlinked PCs that split hitpoints and share abilities, skills, etc.) That means double sudden strike damage! Direct damage can be a great way to go, but it is really all characters like fighters can do. Either theyll be better and youll feel marginalized, or youll be better and marginalize them. Either way, it is often more fun to go another way, and battlefield control is a great way. Enlarge Person: This can, when paired with the right party member, be an awesome battlefield control option. My ideal guy is a barbarian with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, but with any big, strong guy, it increases his strength and gives him a bigger weapon for even more damage. I think of it as a battlefield control spell because of the size and reach. A regular, medium melee guy threatens 8 squares. A large guy with 10' reach threatens 24 squares. This has a tremendous impact on the behavior of intelligent opponents. I also bought a wand of Enlarge Person. It cost 750gp, so for basically 15gp each use, I can turn our monk (our frontline fighter) into a monster with 2d6 unarmed strikes from 10' away, and it lasts 10 rounds. Who needs longer than that? Totally worth it. Enlarge Person is obviously great, but here's the situation -- the ogre/cleric keeps a pretty steady supply of enlarge potions and once he finishes the ogre progression, he'll be able to cast it on himself (Huge ogres with augmented warhammers are scary, by the way.) Does that obviate the wand? Or should I use it in place of other first-round spells to buff the other fighter? I just made a Sorc recently, and this board helped me deck him out with spells... Good suggestions all; thank you, Phrennzy. Protection from Evil has some in-character reasons to be taken as a spell, too (and I'll be throwing in some levels from the MoF Incantatrix which effectively grants an extra specialization effect in the abjuration school, even for sorcerors -- a plus there.) That'll probably go on the list. Alter Self and Scorching Ray do look good, I admit, but I don't think they fit the character concept at all; I'll definitely keep them on the list for a future wizard, though. Haste was a traditional and obvious choice, but I'm glad to see that one reaffirmed -- same with Web (thank you, Apocolypse_77.) I saw that one put to good use in another game, although I'm a little concerned about its "two diametrically opposed surfaces" requirement. I had considered Solid Cloud at later levels, but I hadn't thought of using Fog Cloud to shut down archers. Glitterdust is definitely good -- I like the idea of shutting down invisibility and possibly blinding opponents -- but it's only got an area of a 10' spread. 20' seems like a fairly small area; would it be worth keeping and applying a metamagic feat to (to expand its AoE) at later levels? Sleep... our party's already 4th level and we took on another "5th level" party of (very bad) adventurers without much trouble, so it seems like we're at the edge of that 4 HD limit already. The same would seem to apply to Color Spray, though it seems to have the edge since it's an AoE as well and can at least stun. I've never even watched another player use those spells, though, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. Just as a note -- I was looking at Otiluke's Resilient Sphere as a mid-game alternative to hold person, since it's not mind-affecting and I get bonuses to it as a force spell. Is this a legitimate choice? Or are there better spell choices at that level that I'm missing?
Max Octavious Xavier 07-18-07, 07:02 PM	I would try to have a spell with each save type. Grease(Ref), Glitterdust(Wil) and Blind/deaf(For) are good. Ray of enfebblement is useful, as is Rope Trick. Also, in Dragon 311 they had Bloodline feats for Sor. Have you asked your dm if you coud take one? Does Enlarge person (Target = Humanoids) work on Ogres (Type = Giant)? I am currently playing a Sor, and my goal is to see how nasty(in a good way) I can make the party. Currently have 1st- enlarge person, grease, ray of enfebblement, charm person, ?(haven't chosen yet) 2nd- Rope Trick, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray 3rd- Haste, Slow (+ draconic bloodline= comprehend lan, darkvision and protection from energy) In the 1st adventure (this is a replacement character in an established game) I used grease more than any other spell, good times.
devinmdp 07-18-07, 07:27 PM	Web is nice, but there are many issues with it. 1. It can easily be burned. Yeah, you take a bit of damage when you burn it, but not much. 2. It must have two anchor points opposite each other. In a dungeon, this is a very easy thing to do. Outdoors, try again. 3. You can still attack out of a web. As long as there is not 20 ft or more of web between you, you can shoot spells and ranged weapons from inside the web. Yes, yu have to make a Conc check to cast, but for most casters that should not be an issue. 4. By 7th level the spell is much less useful, as monsters have big Str and NPCs should often have Freedom of Movement available as a standard-cast spell. Devin
Lady_Dragon 07-19-07, 04:18 AM	Alter Self is a beaut because of the natural armor you can acquire with it. Excuse me, but I was under the impression that alter self was at best a disguise spell. How can it get you natural armor?
runestar 07-19-07, 08:29 AM	Excuse me, but I was under the impression that alter self was at best a disguise spell. How can it get you natural armor? You gain the NA of the form you assume. So if you used alter self to transform into a lizardfolk, you get +5NA, in addition to its 3 natural attacks. Enlarge Person is obviously great, but here's the situation -- the ogre/cleric keeps a pretty steady supply of enlarge potions and once he finishes the ogre progression, he'll be able to cast it on himself (Huge ogres with augmented warhammers are scary, by the way.) Note that enlarge person does not work on ogres as they are giants, and the spell affects only humanoids. I would also take glitterdust over web - more party-friendly for me.:P
Lady_Dragon 07-19-07, 08:37 AM	You gain the NA of the form you assume. So if you used alter self to transform into a lizardfolk, you get +5NA, in addition to its 3 natural attacks. Huh. Out of curiosity, are there other humanoid races other than lizardfolk that can get you NA? What other types of abilites or bonuses would you get? (sorry OP, for jacking your thread)
runestar 07-19-07, 08:49 AM	Huh. Out of curiosity, are there other humanoid races other than lizardfolk that can get you NA? What other types of abilites or bonuses would you get? Link to the spell desc - what it grants is spelled out quite clearly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) Exhaustive treatise on alter self. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=176246) Tons of them. Off the head, tren from serpent kingdoms grants you +8NA, and troglodyte (MM) grants you +6NA.
kelvinaw273 07-19-07, 08:54 AM	Actually Grease is a pretty good battlefield control spell: Cast it on an area and foes will try to avoid that area, and that is effectively what you want. Also consider casting it on walls/ceilings when you have creatures like lizards and spiders running around them - it is a spell with a lot of uses, and that is good for a sorcerer because you have less variety of spells to go further. I would suggest featherfall or levitation to complete your set, otherwise good choices.
Puca 07-19-07, 10:43 AM	Yeah, ogres shouldnt, normally, be able to benefit from Enlarge Person. That ogre cleric will be able to benefit from the size increase of something like Righteous Might, but thats pretty far away. I also agree that it is better to use this spell in a wand once you can afford one. Glitterdust is definitely good -- I like the idea of shutting down invisibility and possibly blinding opponents -- but it's only got an area of a 10' spread. 20' seems like a fairly small area; would it be worth keeping and applying a metamagic feat to (to expand its AoE) at later levels?A 10’ radius is a pretty big area. You can almost certainly be able to hit an invisible opponent with even a vague idea as to his location. If you are facing multiple invisible opponents, or if you just missed, cast the spell again. Thats the great part of being a sorcerer. Sleep... our party's already 4th level and we took on another "5th level" party of (very bad) adventurers without much trouble, so it seems like we're at the edge of that 4 HD limit already. The same would seem to apply to Color Spray, though it seems to have the edge since it's an AoE as well and can at least stun. I've never even watched another player use those spells, though, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.Ive never been much of a fan of Color Spray: range is too short. My very first 3.5 sorcerer took it, and got hammered my first encounter when the goblins all saved. Neg hit points; cleric saved me, but Ive been prejudiced against it since. Sleep can still be viable for several levels. While the BBEG isnt going to be affected, his low-level minions still will be. In addition, you might find yourself facing weak opponents that you dont want to kill, like a city watchman whos just in the way, not a real adversary. Eventually though, you can take Deep Slumber and swap out Sleep for something utility. Just as a note -- I was looking at Otiluke's Resilient Sphere as a mid-game alternative to hold person, since it's not mind-affecting and I get bonuses to it as a force spell. Is this a legitimate choice? Or are there better spell choices at that level that I'm missing?It is a good choice. It not only can be used to isolate an opponent, you can isolate yourself. Total protection while you put up buffs or just try to think of a way out of the mess you got yourself into. Since it is dismissible, you just drop it when youre ready. At 4th level though, there are just so many good spells: Polymorph, Dimension Door, Enervation, Evards Black Tentacles, and thats just core.
psionichamster 07-19-07, 12:02 PM	well, if you're gunning for Argent Savant, there're a couple must haves, and a few choice-type spells. if you can work it so your control spells are force-based, all the better and you can save your others for more general use. 1st lvl- mage armor, magic missile, shield. nuff said, these will keep your butt covered, not to mention the easy 3 force-type spells. 2nd-web (as mentioned), see invisibility (not necessarily needed, scrolls can suffice), resist energy (at least until the cleric gets Mass Resist), scorching ray (if you're looking at an attack spell for 2nd lvl, this is top-of-the-line), ray of stupidity (PERFECT for wands...1d4+1 int damage? this is the optimum animal-killer). force spells include blast of force (not recommended), and battering ram (very nice, but may not be worth a spell known...perhaps another wand) 3rd-haste. best 3rd lvl spell for a sorc. theres also stinking cloud (persistent fort saves or be nauseated is a pretty good way to stop attackers. especially if your people can move/see through it) the others you pick as you like...fly, displacement, dispel magic, fireball, they're all good 4th- orb of force for your force spell. 10d6 damage of force. thats nice. there's also force missiles, like magic missiles but bigger, force claw, and forcewave (bullrushes all w/in 10', kinda like force-push from Star Wars) also, solid fog is absolutely amazing for battlefield control. especially if you drop one OVER a stinking cloud. now they're stuck inside and can't hope to get out anytime soon. 5th-wall of force/bigbys interposing hand. nuff said. 6th. disintigrate. whats better than controlling the battlefield by putting holes in it. yay, disintegrate! 7th and up...can't help you, don't usually play this high, usually DM'ing -the hamster
Saragon42 07-19-07, 06:21 PM	Again, thank you all for your replies. You've been extremely helpful (even the minor threadjack taught me something I didn't know about alter self.;) ) I do have a few more questions and responses: I would try to have a spell with each save type. Grease(Ref), Glitterdust(Wil) and Blind/deaf(For) are good. Ray of enfebblement is useful, as is Rope Trick. Also, in Dragon 311 they had Bloodline feats for Sor. Have you asked your dm if you coud take one? I haven't thought about Bloodline feats and probably wouldn't take one; I'm looking at two PrCs with prerequisite feats (the MoF Incantatrix needs Iron Will and the Argent Savant needs some other feat), and I'll probably have to take a feat to meet the "8 ranks Knowledge: Planes" prereq for the former prestige class as well. Besides, my aasimar's descent already figures in as a minor plot point and gives me some minor social advantages. Your suggestion about having spells with varying saves, however, is a very good one and I'll definitely try to do so. Those of you who pointed out that enlarge person doesn't work on giants -- I'll double check that with my DM. He hasn't raised an objection yet, so either he's ruled that the spell works fine for all creatures or he simply hasn't noticed the exact text of the spell's "target" line. (Given that this is a party with two non-humanoids [out of four PCs] it's probably the former.) I still think it would work better in a wand, if only so that an NPC with UMD could help out if necessary. Puca & psionichamster -- more superb advice, thank you. I'm still somewhat concerned about web's drawbacks (especially the two-surfaces requirement) but may take it and trade it out for a utility/flavor spell later. I don't think I want to go with scorching ray though, at least not as an early choice for that spell level -- it's a solid spell to be sure, but right now I'd rather disable the creature and let the others finish it off. The suggested force spells were especially useful; if I have my class progression correctly figured out I should be entering Argent Savant around CL 12-14, so that's more than enough time to pick up resilient sphere and force missiles/orb of force. So again -- thank you all. One more big question: I plan to take at least five levels of the "weaker" version of the Incantatrix (the one from Magic of Faerun) before I start the Argent Savant. First level grants a specialization effect in abjuration that stacks with a wizard's specialization and lets sorcerors effectively specialize in Abjuration; it's a neat effect, but it also requires the penalty of specialization as well -- giving up two schools. I'm having a hard time picking which schools to drop. I need to keep Evocation for force spells, obviously. If I want to be able to cast haste (and I most assuredly do) I can't give up Transmutation; and by definition the "create things to disrupt enemies" spells are Conjuration. That leaves Necromancy, Illusion and Enchantment. Necromancy has all those marvelous debuffs, but most of those require ranged touch attacks that I won't really excel at. Illusion spells have the potential to greatly confuse our foes, but it doesn't directly lock foes down. However, shadow conjuration and shadow evocation could be an enormous boost to my versatility. Enchantment I could almost give up, given how many things are immune to mind-affecting spells, but deep slumber, heroism / greater heroism, and dominate are all from this school and are very useful in and out of combat. Your picks? Enchantment seems the weakest right now, but I don't have the Spell Compendium in front of me.
Psikerlord 07-20-07, 08:53 AM	personally I don't think specialization is worth it. But if you must, depends a bit on your DM... If he tends to makes saves for NPCs secretly behind his DM screen, lose illusion and enchantment. Otherwise though it's a very hard choice. I'd lose illusion and enchantment ultimately - illusions can be easily negated at mid level, and too mand mind-immune foes. Plus vampiric touch and ray of enfeeblement are just too good. On an earlier note, rem that grease and balance checks use armour penalties, so a tanked fighter type with full plate has a -6 penalty to his DC 10 balance check. For an average dex fighter (which should be common, given full plate only allows a +1 dex bonus to AC), they are looking at a good 75% fall chance (assuming they have no ranks in balance). And I agree web is great, except that it can be burnt away at small hp cost
Max Octavious Xavier 07-20-07, 12:10 PM	personally I don't think specialization is worth it. But if you must, depends a bit on your DM... If he tends to makes saves for NPCs secretly behind his DM screen, lose illusion and enchantment. Otherwise though it's a very hard choice. I'd lose illusion and enchantment ultimately - illusions can be easily negated at mid level, and too mand mind-immune foes. Plus vampiric touch and ray of enfeeblement are just too good. On an earlier note, rem that grease and balance checks use armour penalties, so a tanked fighter type with full plate has a -6 penalty to his DC 10 balance check. For an average dex fighter (which should be common, given full plate only allows a +1 dex bonus to AC), they are looking at a good 75% fall chance (assuming they have no ranks in balance). And I agree web is great, except that it can be burnt away at small hp cost Good points, I only play diviners or generalists when I play wizards. I dislike giving up 2 schools and (IMO) the benefits don't balance the cost. It might balance for the Incantatrix class, I don't have the book so I only know what the 1st 2 levels do (from an index of 3.5 PRC). By inference from what I have read online, it's supposed to be a powerful class. I haven't thought about Bloodline feats and probably wouldn't take one; I'm looking at two PrCs with prerequisite feats (the MoF Incantatrix needs Iron Will and the Argent Savant needs some other feat), and I'll probably have to take a feat to meet the "8 ranks Knowledge: Planes" prereq for the former prestige class as well. Besides, my aasimar's descent already figures in as a minor plot point and gives me some minor social advantages. Argent has no feat PRC and how are you going to use a feat to meet a skill prereq?
stuporhero93 07-20-07, 12:40 PM	Ray of stupidity. Maximize or empower or both. It turns most magical beasts into vegetables :D Best low level spell ever!
maharai23 07-20-07, 12:56 PM	personally I don't think specialization is worth it. But if you must, depends a bit on your DM... If he tends to makes saves for NPCs secretly behind his DM screen, lose illusion and enchantment. Otherwise though it's a very hard choice. I'd lose illusion and enchantment ultimately - illusions can be easily negated at mid level, and too mand mind-immune foes. Plus vampiric touch and ray of enfeeblement are just too good. On an earlier note, rem that grease and balance checks use armour penalties, so a tanked fighter type with full plate has a -6 penalty to his DC 10 balance check. For an average dex fighter (which should be common, given full plate only allows a +1 dex bonus to AC), they are looking at a good 75% fall chance (assuming they have no ranks in balance). And I agree web is great, except that it can be burnt away at small hp cost I'm actually a fan of Focused Specialist. (Complete Mage). Give up 3 schools, and 1 spell/day at each level, and get +3 spells of your chosen school each day, at each spell level. Usually, Evokers/Transmuters can go Illusion/Enchantment/Necromancy, and Conjurers can go Evocation/Enchantment/Necromancy. Not good for all classes, but definately something to consider for specialist roles. For useful spells, Telekinesis. GREAT force control. Wall spells, as several can be pushed over onto people. Wind Wall negates most conventional ranged attacks. The right weather spells at mid/high levels can negate any physical ranged attacks, and wreak havoc on flyers. If you can get a ring of minor spell storing, consider personal range buff spells like True Strike, for that power attacking Barbarian.
Saragon42 07-20-07, 02:16 PM	Good points, I only play diviners or generalists when I play wizards. I dislike giving up 2 schools and (IMO) the benefits don't balance the cost. It might balance for the Incantatrix class, I don't have the book so I only know what the 1st 2 levels do (from an index of 3.5 PRC). By inference from what I have read online, it's supposed to be a powerful class. ... Argent has no feat PRC and how are you going to use a feat to meet a skill prereq? This isn't the Incantatrix most people play -- for some reason, WotC redid the class in a later book as a metamagic master. Fortunately, it's also the sample prestige class in the preview of Magic of Faerun on the main site and can be seen in full here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) without violating the boards' ToS/CoC. Fortunately, looking over it again it shows that (contrary to what I remembered) I only have to choose one prohibited school. That should make the choice a lot easier, and I'm leaning towards letting Enchantment go now. And as far as using a feat to meet a skill prerequisite -- I can't recall if this is a WotC feat or not, but our DM allows us to use a feat to change a skill from a cross-class to a class skill. I had thought that Argent Savant had a feat prereq as well; apparently I was wrong.
Max Octavious Xavier 07-20-07, 08:30 PM	... I only have to choose one prohibited school. That should make the choice a lot easier, and I'm leaning towards letting Enchantment go now. And as far as using a feat to meet a skill prerequisite -- I can't recall if this is a WotC feat or not, but our DM allows us to use a feat to change a skill from a cross-class to a class skill. I had thought that Argent Savant had a feat prereq as well; apparently I was wrong. Thanks. Hmm, interesting class. So you want to make know(planes) into a class skill so you can take Incantrix at 6th and save Argent until 10th (when you could have the prereq spells and 12 spellcraft). Only giving up 1 school makes specializing for Incantatrix much easier. One last word of advise about spell selection, try to pick spells that can be used in multiple ways. Grease is a fine example of this, 101 uses and counting. Good times, good times.
Saragon42 07-23-07, 03:05 PM	Thanks. Hmm, interesting class. So you want to make know(planes) into a class skill so you can take Incantrix at 6th and save Argent until 10th (when you could have the prereq spells and 12 spellcraft). Only giving up 1 school makes specializing for Incantatrix much easier. Basically, yes. I may start Argent Savant at 11th level to take advantage of the bonus metamagic feat at Incantatrix 5 earlier; Argent Savant is only five levels, so I've a bit of room to play there. I do plan to finish all five levels of Argent Savant together and then return to the Incantatrix. One last word of advise about spell selection, try to pick spells that can be used in multiple ways. Grease is a fine example of this, 101 uses and counting. Good times, good times. Excellent advice; thank you, MOX. And thank you to the rest of you who helped out too -- it's much appreciated. :)