Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fatalis_902 08-24-06, 03:54 PM	I am playing in a party with the following: A Halfling Spelltheif A Halfling Ninja A Human Martial A Human Bronze Dragon Shaman(me) and last but not least, A Lizardfolk Warlock. The warlock player is the one with the problem. This problem is that, though he has been playing DnD for 5+ YEARS, he still has no idea how to make a character. I tried to help him, and I was still working on fine tuning my own character at this point, so I told him to roll his ability scores, fine, check the class description for advice on where to put them, fine, apply them, fine, then the trouble started. I then told him that he needed to select his skills, and that he had to check the class description for his class skills. He does this, and we something to the effect of: I put a few ranks in a ton of skills, but I didn't stop to think about what I should or shouldn't do. I mean, he put down for a skill, and I'm serious here, Perform(Wis). PERFORM(WISDOM)! I also told him to select his feats, and mentioned to make sure he had all the prerequisites for them. He put his feats down, all right, but he had the prerequisites for fewer than three, and most of those didn't even make sense. For instance, he is a warlock, but he decided that Maximize spell would be fun. HE CAN'T EVEN USE MAXIMIZE SPELL ON HIS ELDRITCH BLAST! Also, he took the Snatch Arrows and Shot on the Run feats, but didn't have stunning fist, or precise shot/whatever the proper feat is. He has no idea how to read a character sheet, either, and when we are actually playing, he will say, "I attack with my longsword, now what do I roll?" As a serious statement and question. Please note, in the last campaign I was with him in he was playing a mank, and he was fighting with a longsword. A MONK WITH A LONGSWORD! After we told him what to roll to see if he hits, he would ask things like, "What do I add to my roll?" What do you add? You add the attack bonus on the line in the weapon description where it says ATTACK BONUS. It gets better. He would ask, "Where do I find that," AFTER WE HAD JUST FINISHED TELLING HIM. He would then ask, "How much damage," and we would say, "Check and see," and he would say, "Where do I look?" Then when the DM asked for his AC, he would say, "Where is that?" He also has no idea where saves, initiative, or anything is lcated on his character sheet. Now, though it may seem as though I'm just mocking him, I can assure you I'm not. I really do want to help him, so that the entire group, including him, can enjoy the game. What should we do?
Dorian_Dragen 08-24-06, 04:08 PM	hukt oon Fonix wurkt fur meee, seriously though thats rough. If I were the DM, I would limit him to Base classes and races from PHB. Make him learn the basics before he tries a lizard Warlock. Make him read and understand the PHB front to back before anything else. If He still can't work with that limit him to human fighter. It sounds like he's just lazy not stupid. Find ways to motivate him to learn. Even if the motivation is learn or get lost.
LCD2YOU 08-24-06, 04:27 PM	Have them only play a fighter. Until they can show you they know what is really going on, the fighter can be the most straight-forward of all the classes. That way they must show you that they know what is actually going on before they can play something that is non-core. Warlocks are non-core. Still, even before they play something from PHBII, any of the "Complete PCs to drive your DM mad" books, have them do a fighter and another Core character. You'll be glad you did as they learn or they'll drop out.
Fatalis_902 08-24-06, 04:30 PM	Thanks, I will pass that on to the DM. And I must say, while it is annoying, this "Character building/playing Ineptitude," this particular character, the class of which, i.e. warlock, none of us, not even the martial and I, who have been playing for longer than anyone else at the table(the martial's been playing longest, then the warlock then me, and I'm still better than him), know how to play, is by far the single greatest source of humor around the table. We don't mean to mock him, and we, or at least I, want to help him, but Perform (Wis) is too funny not to laugh at.
Engilbrand 08-24-06, 06:09 PM	If DM for a player like this. He'll roll, then stare at me. It's kinda creepy. Then again, he is 13. I'm not bashing 13 year olds. Hell, I wish I had played before college, but I understand if younger people don't get it. The kid is starting to get it, though, and we have only played maybe 10 sessions. If this guy has been playing for 5 years, give him a pre-made character and have him look at the PHB. If he keeps asking the same question over and over, get rid of him. He might be lazy, but he's also stupid.
NinjaPenguin 08-25-06, 04:27 AM	I can't imagine why this person is playing D&D. In fact, I don't believe this person has ever actually played 3rd edition before. I'd lay odds that he learned in 1st/2nd edition AD&D, in which everything is vastly different, and he simply doesn't have the capacity or desire to re-learn. A similar asuming anecdote I made a new friend one time, and asked him if he'd ever played D&D (I found a copy of the MM2 in his room). He said that, yeah, he and his brother and a couple friends played all the time. This was the only D&D book the group collectively owned. I'm not kidding. They had no concept of character class, hit points, attack rolls, anything. It was all freestyle, essentially. Which, while it can be very fun and entertaining, is decidedly -not- D&D. I didn't know this before asking him about his experiences, and was regaled by tales of Vampire Wizards and how the fighter killed a huge dragon... at 5th level. Well, we got that straightened out in a hurry. He plays good and proper now :)
Righter8 08-25-06, 04:58 AM	I think, perhaps, your friend is a simian. A chimpanzee, maybe a gorilla, but certainly not human. Check for excess body hair, lack of verbal communication, beyond screeches and grunts, and constant feces tossing. Seriously, if he has owned a PHB for 5 years and is doing this, I think he must be mentally impaired. Boot him. I can't tolerate "players" who don't even take the time to know the most basic points of the game. If you are more tolerant than I, use colored pens with a key at the bottom to help him. Write his AC stuff in black, his skills in red, etc. If that doesn't help, call the zoo and have him picked up.
draco1119 08-25-06, 05:17 AM	Have them only play a fighter. Until they can show you they know what is really going on, the fighter can be the most straight-forward of all the classes. That way they must show you that they know what is actually going on before they can play something that is non-core. Warlocks are non-core. Still, even before they play something from PHBII, any of the "Complete PCs to drive your DM mad" books, have them do a fighter and another Core character. You'll be glad you did as they learn or they'll drop out. Hell, I've been playing off and on for about 15 years, but I've only played 3.5 for a couple months and still get confused. To be honest, though, the character I JUST started playing (first session was last week) is the first non-core I've ever played, so I still get confused... try taking it easy on the poor guy. Admittedly, though, I have to agree with limiting him to Core races/classes for awhile.
Fatalis_902 08-25-06, 09:07 AM	I think, perhaps, your friend is a simian. A chimpanzee, maybe a gorilla, but certainly not human. Check for excess body hair, lack of verbal communication, beyond screeches and grunts, and constant feces tossing. Seriously, if he has owned a PHB for 5 years and is doing this, I think he must be mentally impaired. Boot him. I can't tolerate "players" who don't even take the time to know the most basic points of the game. If you are more tolerant than I, use colored pens with a key at the bottom to help him. Write his AC stuff in black, his skills in red, etc. If that doesn't help, call the zoo and have him picked up. Funny thing is, I'm honestly not sure that he even owns a PHB. He seems to just look through the books, be they core or supplement, and choose the class with the prettiest picture. And while I understand that some people learn more slowly than others, there is only so much that one can take.
Rafe_113 08-25-06, 09:18 AM	I've only been playing for about 3 years. About a week before my first adventure, our DM, who is also my cousin, stopped by my house and handed me the PHB and the DMG. He told me to read both, cover to cover, and show up about an hour early for the game. When I got there, he quizzed me for an hour solid. Made me create a character sheet, then graded it. GRADED IT!!!! He is a teacher, but I thought that was pretty **** retentive of him. All and all, it was good for me though, because I knew what I was doing when it came time for the dice to roll. I'm not saying any DM should quizz a new player, but letting them borrow a few core rule books to read over in advance can go a long way in making a new player understand the mechanics of the game itself.
Fatalis_902 08-25-06, 09:34 AM	I've only been playing for about 3 years. About a week before my first adventure, our DM, who is also my cousin, stopped by my house and handed me the PHB and the DMG. He told me to read both, cover to cover, and show up about an hour early for the game. When I got there, he quizzed me for an hour solid. Made me create a character sheet, then graded it. GRADED IT!!!! He is a teacher, but I thought that was pretty **** retentive of him. All and all, it was good for me though, because I knew what I was doing when it came time for the dice to roll. I'm not saying any DM should quizz a new player, but letting them borrow a few core rule books to read over in advance can go a long way in making a new player understand the mechanics of the game itself. This man is both smart, and a very impressive restater of what has already been stated. Kudos to you!
Rafe_113 08-25-06, 10:44 AM	This man is both smart, and a very impressive restater of what has already been stated. Kudos to you! Easy killer, just putting in my two cents.....hehe. But yeah, I was pretty much beating a dead horse.
flipoflak92 08-25-06, 11:41 AM	I am playing in a party with the following: A Halfling Spelltheif A Halfling Ninja A Human Martial A Human Bronze Dragon Shaman(me) and last but not least, A Lizardfolk Warlock. The warlock player is the one with the problem. This problem is that, though he has been playing DnD for 5+ YEARS, he still has no idea how to make a character. I tried to help him, and I was still working on fine tuning my own character at this point, so I told him to roll his ability scores, fine, check the class description for advice on where to put them, fine, apply them, fine, then the trouble started. I then told him that he needed to select his skills, and that he had to check the class description for his class skills. He does this, and we something to the effect of: I put a few ranks in a ton of skills, but I didn't stop to think about what I should or shouldn't do. I mean, he put down for a skill, and I'm serious here, Perform(Wis). PERFORM(WISDOM)! I also told him to select his feats, and mentioned to make sure he had all the prerequisites for them. He put his feats down, all right, but he had the prerequisites for fewer than three, and most of those didn't even make sense. For instance, he is a warlock, but he decided that Maximize spell would be fun. HE CAN'T EVEN USE MAXIMIZE SPELL ON HIS ELDRITCH BLAST! Also, he took the Snatch Arrows and Shot on the Run feats, but didn't have stunning fist, or precise shot/whatever the proper feat is. He has no idea how to read a character sheet, either, and when we are actually playing, he will say, "I attack with my longsword, now what do I roll?" As a serious statement and question. Please note, in the last campaign I was with him in he was playing a mank, and he was fighting with a longsword. A MONK WITH A LONGSWORD! After we told him what to roll to see if he hits, he would ask things like, "What do I add to my roll?" What do you add? You add the attack bonus on the line in the weapon description where it says ATTACK BONUS. It gets better. He would ask, "Where do I find that," AFTER WE HAD JUST FINISHED TELLING HIM. He would then ask, "How much damage," and we would say, "Check and see," and he would say, "Where do I look?" Then when the DM asked for his AC, he would say, "Where is that?" He also has no idea where saves, initiative, or anything is lcated on his character sheet. Now, though it may seem as though I'm just mocking him, I can assure you I'm not. I really do want to help him, so that the entire group, including him, can enjoy the game. What should we do? i also play in this group (im the halfling ninja). Ive only been playing for about 6 months. and ive started making my own character sheets about 2 weeks after i started playing. I even understand more than he does. Its just amazing how little this guy understands about the game itself.
Fatalis_902 08-25-06, 12:08 PM	Hey, flip, remember this? "I'm going to make a Perform (Wis) check. Did I mention that my wisdom is only a 12?"
draco1119 08-25-06, 02:03 PM	Just sit him down with the PHB for a session. Say his character had to go train or something. That way, when he has questions about the rules, he can ask. But I'll repeat myself, and say MAKE HIM PLAY A CORE RACE AND CLASS for a while...
PhaedrusXY 08-25-06, 03:09 PM	Buy him a copy of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/0764584596).
Fatalis_902 08-25-06, 05:55 PM	That is, by far, the COOLEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN!!! I want one now.
Moon-Lancer 08-25-06, 09:19 PM	if i was vain enuff to go by the pictures, i would be very disaponted. Alot of that art is junk (the new stuff is getting better though). Really, if i chose by the pictures, i never would have found my favorit race, kilorian.
flipoflak92 08-26-06, 12:47 AM	Hey, flip, remember this? "I'm going to make a Perform (Wis) check. Did I mention that my wisdom is only a 12?" i havent stopped laughing about that since we started to discuss that.. it was just too funny, have u mentions that we are all 20th level and his best save is +16, and he has the cool power to control water, twice a week
Fatalis_902 08-26-06, 11:21 AM	I intentionally ignored his abhorrently bad choice of magic items, but you have a point there.
Relic 08-26-06, 11:49 AM	Have them only play a fighter. Until they can show you they know what is really going on, the fighter can be the most straight-forward of all the classes. A fighter requires a lot of knowledge about the rules of the game. A fighter needs to know what feats to take to give him the ability to control the battlefield (disarm, trip, etc) and how those rules work. A player that is not knowledgeable in all the available feats, different tactics that are possible, and even how to build a useful fighter is going to have a very hard time being even remotely effective as a fighter (especially at the higher levels). If you want a no-brains required class for him to play then select barbarian.
LCD2YOU 08-26-06, 12:17 PM	A fighter requires a lot of knowledge about the rules of the game. A fighter needs to know what feats to take to give him the ability to control the battlefield (disarm, trip, etc) and how those rules work. A player that is not knowledgeable in all the available feats, different tactics that are possible, and even how to build a useful fighter is going to have a very hard time being even remotely effective as a fighter (especially at the higher levels). If you want a no-brains required class for him to play then select barbarian.Ah, but that is only part of my madness. The other part has to do with them having to open up a book and look up feats. As for the Barbarian, "How long does my rage last again", "What do you mean I lose AC", an more. Feats like Blingfighting, dodge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization Greater Focus/Specialization and such are actually very straight forward as well.
Fatalis_902 08-26-06, 08:27 PM	Ah, but that is only part of my madness. The other part has to do with them having to open up a book and look up feats. As for the Barbarian, "How long does my rage last again", "What do you mean I lose AC", an more. Feats like Blingfighting, dodge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization Greater Focus/Specialization and such are actually very straight forward as well. And this is why LCD2YOU has a point. Barbarians seem easy to play, but for a player who can't find his armor class, and mixes up d10s for d20s, the rage part would be too difficult. And don't even mention the PHB2 supplement option. By the way, two of my friends were talking, and one of them seemed very surprised that a 40th level Human Fighter has only 36 feats. This was what he said, "That's ALL?!?" We laughed at that, too.
Reversefigure4 08-26-06, 08:40 PM	For someone who can't / won't learn basics like To Hit and Damage rolls after FIVE years of playing DnD, there is no class simple enough for them. Perhaps a commoner named "Pack Mule", and the only thing he has to do is hand you your items.
Daosus 08-26-06, 09:02 PM	One of the problems you folks seem to have is that you're around level 20. That means you must have started very high. I find that if a player is having trouble, it's nice to start around 1-3 so they get the hang of things.
Fatalis_902 08-27-06, 11:34 AM	Interesting idea, but he has been in two different campaigns at level 5, and has probably been in at least one at level 1. Also, in those cmpaigns, he played a monk. The first one, no problems with role-playing, the second one, well, it's actually funny. The first thing he did in the second one was to try and make friends with an NPC who the DM specifically stated was glaring at him in an unfriendly manner. He had no ranks in Diplomacy. Next, we walked over to where a caravan merchant was selling his wares. This player was like, "Okay, so we're in a large crowd, right?" The DM said Yes, so this guy is like, Okay, this OLD MAN who is doing nothing but looking at what the merchant was selling could be dangeroous, so I'm going to attack him. This is us, including the DM::confused: this Guy: What do I roll? So he rolls, hits, rolls damage, KILLS THE GUY INSTANTLY, and the DM almost changed his alignment to CE, but we stopped him. Later, He found a magical longsword, which he, as a monk proceeded to use more often than his unarmed strike. It is both funny, but also really sad.:weep:
Steelwill 08-28-06, 10:27 AM	D&D, like any other game, has a learning curve, and this problem player will have to either invest the effort and time into learning how to play it for himself, or he needs to drop out...bottom line. Unless someone else wants to babysit this player by doing everything for him, there is no other option, and I am sure that will get very old for most people. My 2 cents.
flipoflak92 08-28-06, 10:36 PM	Did I mention that two of his feats are great cleave and eschew materials. We recently "modified" it. ;) well lets kill him I mean encourage him.:)