Post/Author/DateTime	Post
queenfange 09-09-07, 10:15 AM	While I've been reading about DnD and DMing some loose campaigns for a few years now, this is the first time I am going to be playing in a formal group with people I don't know very well. I already have a few concerns, and I'm looking for experienced players (or people with good advice in general) to suggest how I should handle them... 1) All the other characters are evil- two NE and one CE. While I am somewhat intrigued by the idea of an evil campaign, I am worried that a) my CN gnome will not fit in well, b) the party will lack unity, or c) the campaign will degenerate into a destructive rampage. Am I being too paranoid? Should I change my gnome's alignment to CE to fit in better? How much party unity and internal loyalty should I reasonably expect? 2) I am playing a gnome rogues who fights with a light hammer, and I plan on getting the Weapon Finesse feat upon reaching level 3. Is it possible to be an effective rogue with such a weapon? I feel like nearly all rogues use short swords, rapiers, or daggers, and I haven't figured out if that's just because of a lack of creativity or if those weapons are actually better. 3) I'm interested primarily in role-playing and setting exploration, while the DM (and I believe the other players) are focused on kicking butt, optimization, and plot. How much can/should I expect my preferences to be catered to? I know I need to be careful not to complain too much, side track the party, or make foolish decisions "because that's what my character would do" (which pisses off optimization and kicking butt oriented people especially). So, for example, can my character spend some time wandering around the streets of town and checking out some random shops, or would that detract too much from the combat-oriented objectives of the party? 4) How does one handle a DM who states a rule incorrectly? In my discussion with him, he's mistated a few things (which I've corrected him on), but I don't want to come across as a prick during actual playing sessions. In particular, it worries me that he said that when you get a level of a prestige class, you start at the beginning of the xp table again to determine getting new levels (i.e. someone with 6 character levels, one in a prestige class, only needs 1000 xp to pick up another level of the prestige class). When I asked him why he thought this, he said a former player told him and he never bothered to check the rulebook. If I'm just worrying too much, feel free to tell me so. Any other tips on being a good PC would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks in advance for the feedback!
keyunp 09-09-07, 10:53 AM	1) With CN, I'd say that you personally dont do / interested in some of the stuff (ie evil) that the other party does, but being CN it wouldn't bother to still hang around them. 2) Sorry, not sure. 3) Don't expect much, and take it slow. I'd say forget about the setting exploration until you get to know the other players/DM. If they care about Plot. then come up with a long term goal for your character, ask to have it introduced into the Plot, and you should be able to get some role-playing fun out of it. 4) Sounds like some of his mistakes, might have become house rules (like the XP for prestige). The problem will come up with them trying to be optimized and haveing some of the rules wrong. If they wern't being optimized I'd say not worry and just have fun.
Kouk 09-09-07, 05:35 PM	This will be a difficult group for you, so just go with the flow as much as possible. 1) Normally a CN character wouldn't have much trouble with CE characters, but the other things you noted such as group instability and senseless slaughter actually happen a lot with those alignments. Don't get too attached to your character, because they very well might kill you in your sleep. 2) Yes, there are problems with wanting to use a Light Hammer. A Light Hammer is a Martial weapon, and Rogues are not proficient with that particular martial weapon. Rogues have a limited list of weapons they know how to use by default, and that is not one of them. Also, in terms of stats, it is an inferior Melee weapon. A Gnome would need to use a Small Light Hammer, which would mean you are using a weapon that does 1d3 damage with a x2 crit multiplier that only occurs on a 20. A Small Short Sword deals 1d4 damage with a 19-20/x2 multiplier. A Small Rapier deals 1d4 damage but with an 18-20/x2 multiplier. Even a Small Sickle deals 1d4/x2 which is better than the small light hammer. There are other considerations to be made however, based on damage types. A light hammer deals bludgeoning damage, while the short sword and rapier deal piercing damage. The hierarchy of "usefulness" of weapon damage types is typically Slashing, Bludgeoning, and then Piercing for concerns about Damage Reduction and Sundering. Basically, the Light Hammer is a weapon you would use if you needed a ranged bludgeoning weapon usable with only one hand. A Sling has superior range, but requires both hands to reload. That said, there is nothing wrong with building a character for flavor over mechanical substance, but if you are in a party of optimizers, that character may not fit in very well. 3) Bring up your concerns with the DM, but don't expect anything. You seem to have a grasp of what the campaign will be like, so try to go with it, at least until you determine that they won't kill your character for "taking too long". 4) DMs that make wrong rulings just because they are too lazy to bother reading the rules themselves, I don't know how you can handle other than becoming the DM yourself. Discuss with him if he wants you to correct him during a game. Some DMs like to be corrected, some hate anybody questioning them. The Prestige Class thing is particularly ridiculous, because just by taking a Prestige Class a character would then shoot up in levels compared to a character that did not take a Prestige Class.... totally destroying party balance.
calronmoonflower 09-09-07, 07:45 PM	1) As long as the party understands that evil doesn't mean that you need to back stab and kill each other for gain they should be fine. Evil can work stupid evil never works. 2) You don't need to follow the stereotype when playing a character. 3) I cannot help here. 4) You can correct him quickly in the game without too much disruption, but generally you should speak to him after the game and back up what you say. Just remember the DM can override the rules when they want and because they can doesn't mean that they should.
ZapRowsdower 09-09-07, 10:28 PM	Just some thoughts: 1. Because CN is the "act however the player wants" alignment, how well you fit in depends on what manner you roleplay the character. Do you know how "evil" these players play evil? If evil means "rude and causing mayhem to NPCs but generally sticking together" or "all working together for treasure" the game will go smoothly, but if it is "if you miss with your crossbow again I'll beat you up" and "die in your sleep" the game will go horribly. Depending on how evil the party is I would consider making your gnome rogue NE, and playing him as a greedy character. 2. As somebody mentioned, you don't have the proficiency with a light hammer if you're just a rogue, and it isn't "optimal" compared to the other choices. However, sneak attack damage gradually dwarfs original weapon choice, so going with a club or a dagger doesn't matter much (the reduced critical range hurts a little, but not as much as you'd think). 3. I would agree that exploration in the form of "hmmm let me visit all these shops" would probably annoy a group that has more aggressive kick-in-the-door types, but you could switch it around. Exploration for an evil party can also mean breaking into buildings, robbing people, looking for stuff to steal, which is exciting and can involve the whole group. I think if the DM doesn't want you to play the exploration game, he'll make it clear by giving you nothing interesting to explore beyond the main plot or outright telling you. 4. If you are playing at the level range that someone could enter a PrC or is already in a PrC, I would talk it over with the DM because that is a huge mistake. If he makes errors that horribly distort combat, I would also let him know.
queenfange 09-10-07, 07:43 AM	Thanks for all the great responses so far! I'd like to throw in another question- 5) any thoughts on how to best play CN? I will be trying hard not to be chaotic dumb***, expressing myself by both typically good and typically evil actions along with a strong independent streak (in regards to society and its accepted values- for example, my gnome is attracted to halflings even though the two races hate each other in this setting). Ways to expand on this would be great. As to the responses so far (and more on the same questions is cool- more opinions can only help)... 1) I'm hoping the other PCs will be smart evil, not kill-everything-including-each-other-constantly evil. From your feedback, it sounds like there's a good chance it will work out and that a CN character shouldn't be too much of a problem provided I recognize the possibility of her getting whacked by her own allies. 2) As Kouk pointed out, a light hammer will not be an optimized choice. As for the proficiency, I did spend my one feat on gaining that. With sneak attack damage, as ZapRowsdower pointed out, it shouldn't be too much of an issue I hope. Provided that I can do decent combat and my other skills (Open Lock, Diplomacy, pocketing potentially useful items, and sneaking into difficult spaces) shine, I think it should work out fine. 3) Again, ZapRowsdower has a great idea- exploring the fun and exciting mansions we break in to (our first adventure will be a lot of breaking and entering according to the DM) will be both profitable to the party and fulfill my character's curiosity (and my desire for setting exploration). Keyunp's idea of tying my long-term goals in with the plot is also a great suggestion. 4) I think calronmoonflower is right here... Correct small in-game things quietly, and talk to the DM after the game when necessary. He doesn't seem to mind valid corrections too much, so I'm optimistic. Excellent help thus far, and more on these or feedback on #5 would be fantastic! Any other general advice for being a good player is also welcome.
Cincinnati 09-10-07, 02:25 PM	4) DMs that make wrong rulings just because they are too lazy to bother reading the rules themselves, I don't know how you can handle other than becoming the DM yourself. Discuss with him if he wants you to correct him during a game. Some DMs like to be corrected, some hate anybody questioning them. The Prestige Class thing is particularly ridiculous, because just by taking a Prestige Class a character would then shoot up in levels compared to a character that did not take a Prestige Class.... totally destroying party balance. Yeah... it's one thing to keep quiet on minor rules issues with your DM, but this is a major, major mistake that is pretty much game-breaking. If your DM is doing things like this on a regular basis, I would question even playing in this game, personally.
Alyri 09-10-07, 02:39 PM	While I've been reading about DnD and DMing some loose campaigns for a few years now, this is the first time I am going to be playing in a formal group with people I don't know very well. I already have a few concerns, and I'm looking for experienced players (or people with good advice in general) to suggest how I should handle them... 1) All the other characters are evil- two NE and one CE. While I am somewhat intrigued by the idea of an evil campaign, I am worried that a) my CN gnome will not fit in well, b) the party will lack unity, or c) the campaign will degenerate into a destructive rampage. Am I being too paranoid? Should I change my gnome's alignment to CE to fit in better? How much party unity and internal loyalty should I reasonably expect? I've never seen an evil game that doesn't breakdown in a short time. 2) I am playing a gnome rogues who fights with a light hammer, and I plan on getting the Weapon Finesse feat upon reaching level 3. Is it possible to be an effective rogue with such a weapon? I feel like nearly all rogues use short swords, rapiers, or daggers, and I haven't figured out if that's just because of a lack of creativity or if those weapons are actually better. Lack of Creativity. I like the untypical weapons myself. 3) I'm interested primarily in role-playing and setting exploration, while the DM (and I believe the other players) are focused on kicking butt, optimization, and plot. How much can/should I expect my preferences to be catered to? I know I need to be careful not to complain too much, side track the party, or make foolish decisions "because that's what my character would do" (which pisses off optimization and kicking butt oriented people especially). So, for example, can my character spend some time wandering around the streets of town and checking out some random shops, or would that detract too much from the combat-oriented objectives of the party? That will detract too much unfortunately. 4) How does one handle a DM who states a rule incorrectly? In my discussion with him, he's mistated a few things (which I've corrected him on), but I don't want to come across as a prick during actual playing sessions. In particular, it worries me that he said that when you get a level of a prestige class, you start at the beginning of the xp table again to determine getting new levels (i.e. someone with 6 character levels, one in a prestige class, only needs 1000 xp to pick up another level of the prestige class). When I asked him why he thought this, he said a former player told him and he never bothered to check the rulebook. If I'm just worrying too much, feel free to tell me so. Any other tips on being a good PC would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks in advance for the feedback! I don't think you're worrying enough Thanks for all the great responses so far! I'd like to throw in another question- 5) any thoughts on how to best play CN? I will be trying hard not to be chaotic dumb***, expressing myself by both typically good and typically evil actions along with a strong independent streak (in regards to society and its accepted values- for example, my gnome is attracted to halflings even though the two races hate each other in this setting). Ways to expand on this would be great. From I read about your style and the campaign. I wouldn't even bother with the game. You appear to be more about substance. I bet you can close your eyes and see the character, while the rest of the group only sees a stat page.
Nephlite 09-10-07, 02:50 PM	2) I am playing a gnome rogues who fights with a light hammer, and I plan on getting the Weapon Finesse feat upon reaching level 3. Is it possible to be an effective rogue with such a weapon? I feel like nearly all rogues use short swords, rapiers, or daggers, and I haven't figured out if that's just because of a lack of creativity or if those weapons are actually better. I'd get a Morningstar: if you need blunt feel, describe weapon as a hammer, but use stats of morning star. You are not proficient in hammers.
calronmoonflower 09-11-07, 03:25 AM	5) any thoughts on how to best play CN? I will be trying hard not to be chaotic dumb***, expressing myself by both typically good and typically evil actions along with a strong independent streak (in regards to society and its accepted values- for example, my gnome is attracted to halflings even though the two races hate each other in this setting). Ways to expand on this would be great. Chaotic Neutral: Your not bound by social standards or the concepts of right or wrong. That doesn't means that you will do evil however. You still understand that action can have consequences, many of which are not in your best interests. Not being bound by the right or wrong doesn't mean that you get alway with evil things. If you act evil you will get a evil alignment. Being chaotic neutral you will react off of personal interests and your emotional connections with others and not really care about how others view you unless it impacts you in some way.
queenfange 09-11-07, 07:05 AM	[QUOTE=calronmoonflower;13741554]That doesn't means that you will do evil however. You still understand that action can have consequences, many of which are not in your best interests. Not being bound by the right or wrong doesn't mean that you get alway with evil things. If you act evil you will get a evil alignment.[QUOTE] I interpret alignment more loosely, and my DM is OK with my interpretation; I may commit evil acts as long as I also commit a similar number of good acts of the same magnitude and it does not overshadow my neutrality. I understand that actions have consequences, but alignment in the campaign will represent overall trends and not be based on any specific action. I suppose I should stop before this gets into an argument of evil vs. neutrality, including whether stealing or killing a corrupt priest consitutes an evil act (both of which are actions which my character will likely be doing at some point down the road), but on the other hand I'm rather curious what people think. Where is the line between self-interest and evil? I'll post this Friday to let you all know how it goes so we can see whether I worried too much or not nearly enough, and I'll probably have more questions as well...
calronmoonflower 09-12-07, 02:48 AM	Perhaps I phrased it wrong. You don't get to play your character like they are evil and still be neutral. A few evil acts now and then are not likely enough to change your alignment, just as a few good one will not.