Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Plissken 06-23-04, 09:59 AM	I am a PC in a quest with a relatvily new DM, he has been playing for 1 year, but only DMing for 2 months. He is a natural DM, and one of the best i have ever played with. The problem is that one of the players, who is a close friend of mine, is always arugeing with DM's that things are not realistic enough, and tells them that certian choices that they are makeing are incorrect. He has always been power hungry (played with him for 10 years now), and argumentitive when things don't go his way. We spent 1 hour aruguing a point about how reaidly avalibal mercenary should be in a large town, and i think it is really getting the DM down. Not to mention destroying my fun. Many times I have said to him: "its not avalibal because you are not the DM, and you dont decide what happens in the DM's world" He will just shrug his shoulders and say "whatever", and then contiue to play with that attitude. That attitude gets everyone down. He is playing a vital role in the quest, so he cannot be removed, and he is a close friend so i can't NOT game with him. What should i say to the DM to make him feel better, or what should i do to fix this problem next time we play? Thanks for listening, any advice would be helpful.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 10:05 AM	Originally posted by Plissken He is playing a vital role in the quest, so he cannot be removed, and he is a close friend so i can't NOT game with him. Rule 0.75 No player is so vital, so intregal to a plot, to warrant treating anyone else at the gaming table like crap.
ehrin 06-23-04, 10:08 AM	Tell him that if you wanted absolute realism, you wouldn't be playing Dungeons and Dragons, you would be sitting at home reading technical manuals. The idea of the entire game is to suspend disbelief long enough to explore your imagination. then, tell everyone that you enjoy the level of detail and imagination of the DM.
Plissken 06-23-04, 10:33 AM	Originally posted by Hathorym Rule 0.75 No player is so vital, so intregal to a plot, to warrant treating anyone else at the gaming table like crap. You are right, but the quest could not contiue w/o him, motly because him and i are the only perminant PC's, there are also 2 more "guest" PC, who are not always avalibal for play. When there are avalibal, the DM writes them back in from being away on a trip. I guess what i meant was that we could not contiune the quest w/o his charater, and i really don't want this DM's first realt quest to fail becasue of him.
Plissken 06-23-04, 10:40 AM	Originally posted by ehrin Tell him that if you wanted absolute realism, you wouldn't be playing Dungeons and Dragons, you would be sitting at home reading technical manuals. The idea of the entire game is to suspend disbelief long enough to explore your imagination. then, tell everyone that you enjoy the level of detail and imagination of the DM. That is very helpful, only we already bend the rules alot with imagination, and i guess the argument he is makeing is that his quest is inconsistant more then unrealistic. Bad wording on my part. This is only one example o the probelm though. There is oftain a problem when this guy dosnt get what he wants. He claims it is un-fun when his PC's dont achive or have a chance of achiving what he wants them to. Thank-you for the reply, and i would like to hear more of your thoughts.
Thorak 06-23-04, 10:49 AM	I wholeheartedly suggest that the next time he brings up 'realism', have a Wild Surge turn him into a toad for 5 minutes. Or have a several-ton Dragon fly overhead gracefully. Or point out that his +2 sword is sharper and stronger than any sword, "realistically", can be. Magic and realism don't mix. And the 'realism' he's talking about is based on (most likely fallacious, from my honours-level study) his knowledge of Medieval Europe. Which has as much similarity to the worlds of D&D as a dragon has with a gecko.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 10:50 AM	With such a small gaming group, I understand your concern. It sounds like a maturity issue, really, and the only way to get around it is to either talk to him about it and pray he won't get defensive or find a new group if it upsets you that much. Of course, you might want to ask the DM if he even minds.
Plissken 06-23-04, 10:55 AM	Im pretty sure the DM does mind, but he would never say anything about it. It is a maturity thing, and there might be a supiority issue too...but i just don't understand why it matter to him so much. Just have fun, right?
The Master Weaver Is Warped 06-23-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by Plissken That is very helpful, only we already bend the rules alot with imagination, and i guess the argument he is makeing is that his quest is inconsistant more then unrealistic. Bad wording on my part. This is only one example o the probelm though. There is oftain a problem when this guy dosnt get what he wants. He claims it is un-fun when his PC's dont achive or have a chance of achiving what he wants them to. Thank-you for the reply, and i would like to hear more of your thoughts. Tell him 1) the DM has reasons for the way things are, in his world. 2) Pounding in a screw with a hammer is hard work and makes a terrible mess of the board. Drop the hammer and look for the screw driver. In other words, he's a smart guy, forget the power, or the simple answer, and use his damned brains to solve the DM's puzzles. If the first idea doesn't work come up with another one. This is what his character would have to do, in any given situation. 3) life in general, fantasy or real life, is inconsistant. Learn to deal with it. 4) Give the DM a chance. He's new and he's got a different game style. Think of it as reading a book by a new author. Relax and see where his story takes you. and finally if this doesn't do it. 5) if you can do better, you DM, or shut your mouth.
Hathorym 06-23-04, 11:10 AM	Originally posted by Plissken Im pretty sure the DM does mind, but he would never say anything about it. It is a maturity thing, and there might be a supiority issue too...but i just don't understand why it matter to him so much. Just have fun, right? Sometimes, making others feel bad is a way of bolstering one's own self-esteem. It's not a matter of fun, I'm sure your friend IS having fun, however he's just spoiled and obvious down on himself. This may sound like an odd idea, but let him DM a few sessions... it might be able to help him, or show him how difficult being a DM is. If he doesn't want to do that... then you know he's just trying to work through his own lack of confidence.
Twisted Puppy 06-23-04, 11:27 AM	Suggest to your DM that he take a peak at the "What's a DM to do" board. I have sympathy for your problem. First you need to have a talk with the DM. See how he feels about the situation. Then some sort of decision will have to be made - the DM may have to give your friend a choice: accepting his rulings and discussing them - rationally and constructively- after the session, or finding another group. I don't mention banishing the player lightly, it's never fun for anyone involved. Last weekend I banished a player for the first time - and I've been playing for a very long time. It's something to be regretted, but if he is causing problems for other people, sometimes there simply isn't a choice.
Plissken 06-23-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by Hathorym Sometimes, making others feel bad is a way of bolstering one's own self-esteem. It's not a matter of fun, I'm sure your friend IS having fun, however he's just spoiled and obvious down on himself. This may sound like an odd idea, but let him DM a few sessions... it might be able to help him, or show him how difficult being a DM is. If he doesn't want to do that... then you know he's just trying to work through his own lack of confidence. thats an excellent point and i'll tell you why. The guy HAS DMed in the past, and still does on occation, AND HE HATES IT! After the rest of the grou has exausted there ideas, say over the course of a year, and someone tells him it his turn, he absolultly refuses. He hates to DM, but when he does, we dont generally give him a hard time.
Plissken 06-23-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by Twisted Puppy Last weekend I banished a player for the first time - and I've been playing for a very long time. What did you have to banish him for? Were there mutipul instances?
Plissken 06-23-04, 11:37 AM	Originally posted by The Master Weaver Is Warped 1) the DM has reasons for the way things are, in his world. 5) if you can do better, you DM, or shut your mouth. I specififally like these suggestions
Twisted Puppy 06-23-04, 12:35 PM	Originally posted by Plissken What did you have to banish him for? Were there mutipul instances? Check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256893) The player did have problems with his temper, which I had warned him about on two occassions. I know that I am prone to a quick temper, so I feel like I'm fairly forgiving on that issue, but I will only accept so much. My solution was to ask him to take a break from the table for a couple of weeks, since there seemed to be some problems between him and the other players that we needed to work out, and that I also had some problems with things I had seen him doing at the table. (Namely trying to bully younger players, re-rolling dice, and changing spell lists.) However, he proceeded to act like a ten-year-old, and became abusive of me, so instead of a temporary hiatus from the table, he's permanently gone.
warpdragon 06-23-04, 12:54 PM	Definately have the DM tell the guy that a dragon flies by as soon as he brings this up again.
SureFoot 06-23-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Plissken . . . and he is a close friend so i can't NOT game with him. Thanks for listening, any advice would be helpful. If the other player is as close a friend as this, you should be able to talk with him in a frank, honest manner and discuss your concerns. If you think that an honest, frank discussion with him might strain your friendship, chances are you're not as close friends as you think you are.
Plissken 06-23-04, 01:13 PM	well you raise a good point SureFoot. I just want do it in a way that donst make the DM feel he is doing a bad job.
Incensius 06-23-04, 04:36 PM	I doubt beating the crap out of him is a viable sollution ... bah! softies! Mat
General Dorsey 06-24-04, 02:46 PM	I have gamed with people exactly like you have described. Some of them were very close friends or even roommates. That doesn't excuse their attitudes though. You might want to mention to him that this DM is new and needs support, not arguments. Players have a responsibility to the game that is often overlooked, especially by the angry player. 1> A player needs to be present and ready to game. This includes more than just dice and character. It includes willingness to work within the rules set forth by the system and DM. Failure to do that, and the player should not be present. 2> A player needs to contribute to the adventure. This includes more than slaying the dragon and rescuing the princess. The player needs to talk to the DM outside of the game and discuss what his goals are with his character and see if the DM can work them into the adventure. The DM needs to work with the players on this. 3> Players need to accept that the DM is the final arbitor. He makes his decisions based upon the rules as he understands them. There will always be disagreements between the players and DM, but the DM has the final say. The DM must be open to suggestions, but so must the players. One way to do this is for each side to get 2-3 minutes to make their points and then the DM makes his decision. 4> It is not the DMs responsibility to ensure that everyone is having fun. The DM needs to work with the players to help them advance their characters and the story along, but it is the player's responsibility to find his own happiness. If that means leaving the game, then that's what it means. 5> There is no game that can embody realism completely. There must be some give and take. If he can offer suggestions to increase plausibility without sacrificing what your group enjoys about DnD, then they should be considered. For example, if you like the speed and simplicity of combat, don't add rules for borken bones and natural healing rates. 6> Players need to understand that not a single one of their characters is completely integral to the story. Quite often a character is added and removed from story arcs in professional writing with great success. Sometimes these characters seem like they are the heart of the story, but then a good writer can fix that. As for fixing the problem for the next time you play, that won't happen. You are trying to change 10 years of habit within 1 weeks time. Work with him and be patient. Above all else, if he continues to be a jerk, then drop him from the game. I've done it before, and it has caused some problems. The way I look at it, my friends would have never put me in that situation in the first place, so I never lost the friend.
Astanphaeus 06-24-04, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by Plissken We spent 1 hour aruguing a point about how reaidly avalibal mercenary should be in a large town To me, this is entirely unacceptable. Debating certain points a little, especially if it's a new DM, is fine. A sense of authenticity, of verisimilitude, in the setting can be pretty important. If something doesn't make sense, a player should be able to question it, and find out what the deal is. Maybe there's something about the setting he's not picking up on, or perhaps the DM just isn't taking certain factors into consideration (he's new, so it's possible). But arguing for an hour? No. Way, way out of line. When the DM says: that's the way it is... then that's the way it is. End of discussion. If it's that big a deal, it can be brought up again after the session is over. Interrupting gameplay for an hour has to be one of the most inconsiderate things a player can do. That said, the DM has to take a certain amount of responsibility here. He's the one that has to put his foot down and say: we're done talking about this right now. But a player putting him in a position where he has to do that... not good. And if it's a regular thing? Bottomline, that's a problem that has to stop, one way or the other. And one more point: the player has to remember that he's not privy to the big picture. If it's really that weird that mercenaries aren't available in a town, maybe, instead of arguing about it OOCly, he should investigate it ICly. Wow, roleplay. What a concept. He will just shrug his shoulders and say "whatever", and then contiue to play with that attitude. That attitude gets everyone down. This is also a problem. Were I the DM, I'd talk to the player between sessions and say something along the lines of: look, the attitude has got to go. I'm willing to work with you, but this routine has to stop. It's dragging me down, it's dragging other players down, and that's not fair to us. He is playing a vital role in the quest, so he cannot be removed That's a corner you never want to back yourself into. He can be removed. You can look for another player to take the character on, the character can be run as an NPC, an existing player could handle the character for a bit, or the story could be changed (even retroactively if need be). In short: there are always options. What should i say to the DM to make him feel better, or what should i do to fix this problem next time we play? To be honest, I think he should fix the problem (preferably before you play again), because it's going to make him a better DM if he does. You say he's a "natural"... that probably has a lot to do with him really enjoying being a DM... which means he's likely going to be doing it a lot more in the future. Every DM has to deal with this sort of thing eventually. Therefore, I think it's probably best that he comes to grips with this difficult aspect of the gig sooner rather than later. You can help by providing support and acting as a sounding board for him. You might even be helpful as a sort of mediator, seeing as this player is a friend of yours... but the DM should be the one that takes control of the situation. I hope it works out for you. ~ A.
Plissken 06-26-04, 11:07 AM	Thanks for the resonse everyone, i will take what everyone said under advisement. Its really very helpful talking to people you dont know about problems because they are looking at if from an outside perspective.
Arbitrary Aardvark 06-29-04, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by Astanphaeus And one more point: the player has to remember that he's not privy to the big picture. If it's really that weird that mercenaries aren't available in a town, maybe, instead of arguing about it OOCly, he should investigate it ICly. Or, possibly, ask the DM if it is important. (He might not get an answer though.) I've been in a couple of games where there were things *wrong* to the point that either I had to suspend my disbelief, or have my character believe that things were wrong. (By things being "wrong", I mean inconsistent with what I perceived the genre to be.) For example, if you expect a campaign to be gritty and realistic (I'm thinking of a Cyberpunk 2020 game I was in), but combat gets all Matrix-like, it's natural for you, as a player, to think that maybe you are in "The Matrix" or its ilk, and natural for your character to perhaps wonder what is up. On the other hand, the DM might just like that style of fight. The biggest disconnect I remember was in a homebrew modern game set about three years after a large asteroid hit the earth (ala Armagedon). I had the conceptual problem that not only did we not run into very many survivors (as in no-one hanging out in an empty town which once had 5000 people, but little evidence of looting) other than in our little survivalist compound, we didn't even run into evidence of bodies. It was as if 90% of the population of rural Colorado had vanished. I told the GM that I, as a player, thought things were very fishy. I said that my character probably thought things were fishy. I said to the GM "Look, I realise that it might be a secret, or something we need to find out, so you don't have to tell me why it looks like 90% of the population just disapeared, but my character will think it is suspicious. If you don't want me to derail the campaign trying to figure this out, if there is a rational explanation that my character (or someone he knows) comes up with, you might want to let me know. I don't want a difference in perception between you and I about how long it takes bodies to decay, or what people would do when they panic, to result in the campaign derailing." The DM nodded, and then didn't explicate things at all. I suppose I'm willing to believe that in the Forgotten Realms (at least as interpreted by an incompetant DM) there are no villages that aren't marked as cities on the map, but I was unwilling to believe in a "realistic" modern campaign (he used USGS maps, for example), that everyone just disapeared. So my character (who was a Babtist Minister) decided that the rapture must have occured, and that he must have been left behind because he was such a sinner. (Seemed like the only logical way of reconciling the disconnect.)
danielinthewolvesden 06-29-04, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by SureFoot If the other player is as close a friend as this, you should be able to talk with him in a frank, honest manner and discuss your concerns. If you think that an honest, frank discussion with him might strain your friendship, chances are you're not as close friends as you think you are. Yes- absolutely. Great post. Folks- there is no good way of handling this "in character/in game". This is an OOC problem, OK?
Astanphaeus 06-29-04, 07:39 PM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark Or, possibly, ask the DM if it is important. Yes, which is why I stated: If something doesn't make sense, a player should be able to question it, and find out what the deal is. Maybe there's something about the setting he's not picking up on, or perhaps the DM just isn't taking certain factors into consideration (he's new, so it's possible). ~ A.
Plissken 06-30-04, 12:06 PM	Well Dm's are human, and i have redily played pc and Dm, Sometime the Dm just isnt descriptive enough, or maybe he though the players and himself were preciving the surrounding in the same way. When the PC says "i will hide in the woods" and the DM responds, "you are on open Plains", then there is oviously an issue of being on the same page. This, i think, is the fault of both the DM and the PC. Therefore, i think these kind of questions are acceptibal, even if just to confirm that everyone IS on the same page.