A Problem With Level Adjusted Races [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Problem With Level Adjusted Races [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jessewilson1011
05-26-05, 09:27 PM I've read the complete Savage Progressions article about Level Adjusted Races and I need to know about hit dice.
stealth_monkey
05-26-05, 09:52 PM I'll try to help as best I can, but I need a bit more specific information. What exactly do you want to know about them?
Nom
05-26-05, 09:58 PM A hit die is a die you roll to get hit points. For a PC, every character level grants a hit die. Monsters just get HD directly. Levels = HD.
jessewilson1011
05-26-05, 11:18 PM Well do they use the hit die of the class they want or their racial hit die, and would'nt the hit dice increase the ECL?
stealth_monkey
05-27-05, 01:20 AM I personally rule that they use their given hit dice for the stated levels, but class levels added after that give the stated class hit dice (not 100% sure on the raw, but i'm almost certain its the same)

Yes, it increases ecl, in fact total ecl is level adjustment + racial hit dice

I think it may be clearer with an example
Bob the mind flayer has just started his adventuring career. He has 8d8 racial hitdice, so that is the number of hp he starts with (not including con modifiers). The mind flayer race has a level adjustment of 7, so he has an ecl of 15, making him equivalant to a level 15 character. If he becomes a wizard he rolls d4's for his hp total every level as normal
Nom
05-27-05, 03:55 AM Ok, 2 sorts of hit dice - character level HD and racial HD. Racial HD are what monsters (including many humanoids) have. Class HD are for class levels.

Ignoring Savage Species, humanoids have a fixed number of racial HD (from 0 up). Any increase in levels / HD is via class levels in either NPC or PC classes. In contrast, monsters often get "bigger and tougher" by increasing their racial HD. In each case, see the "Advancement" entry: humanoids typically advance "by character class", while monsters have various HD and size listings.

3 examples from the MM:

Goblin (pg 133), listed as "1st level warrior, small humanoid (goblinoid)", 1d8+1 HD. So the goblin has no racial HD, but a single class level of "warrior". If the goblin was a PC, he would replace that warrior level with whatever class he started in.

Centaur (pg 32), listed as "large monstous humanoid", 4d8+8 HD. Note the absence of a class. This is the baseline centaur. If he was a PC, he would add his 1st class level as his 5th hit die.

Winter Wolf (pg 256), listed as "large magical beast", 6d10+18 HD. Being a "monster", the winter wolf advances by gaining additional racial HD. Advancement is listed as 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge). Winter wolves are never PCs.

However, sometimes a creature is more powerful than its HD indicate. For example, the centaur is Large and gains +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con. Although the centaur's "monstrous humanoid" HD are weaker than fighter HD, the fighter's slightly larger HD (d10 vs d8) and 3 bonus feats don't make up for the centaur's other bonuses. Thus, when considering levelling and XP, we penalise the centaur a +2 level handicap, called a "level adjustment".

For example, a baseline centaur has 4 HD and a +2 LA, for an effective character level (ECL) of 6. When considering XP, the centaur is a level 6 character with at least 15,000 XP (PH pg 22) and requires 21,000 XP to gain ECL 7. For all other purposes (feats, hp, ...), the centaur has 4 HD.

Note that the character is illegal below 15,000 XP. He needs 15,000 XP just to maintain his racial HD and ECL. In contrast, a human (0 racial HD, LA +0) with 0 XP gets to (and must) add a class level to take him to level 1.

When the centaur achieves 21,000 XP, he can become ECL 7. He adds a level of fighter, and now has 4d8+1d10+5*Con HD (total 5 HD). For all intents and purposes except XP, he is a level 5 (or 5 HD) character. For calculating XP, we include his +2 LA and treat him as ECL 7.

Savage Species contains rules to allow monstrous characters to spread out their racial HD and ECL, allowing them to exist as PCs below their minimum ECL.
Colmarr
05-27-05, 03:58 AM Jesse, I assume you are referring to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

Each racial class has base abilities and level abilities. It's easiest to explain with examples. Let's use Drow.

By using this system, a 1st level Drow fighter gains:

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence.

Size: Drow are Medium size.

Speed: Drow base land speed is 30 feet.

Proficiencies: A drow is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword.

Dancing Lights (Sp): A drow may use dancing lights (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.

Darkvision (Ex): A drow has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Immunities (Ex): A drow is immune to magic sleep effects.

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, he is dazzled as long as he remains in the affected area.

Skill Bonuses: A drow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Furthermore, a drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it.

Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin.

Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). A multiclass drow's wizard or cleric class (male or female, respectively) does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.

The character is a Drow, but doesn't yet have all of the Drow racial abilities. Its HD, skills, saves, and BAB are based solely on class. So HD would be 1d10, skills would be (2+Int)x4, saves would be +2/+0/+0, and BAB would be +1. The character still counts as a first level character.

At second level, the character can choose to take level 1 in the racial Drow class. The character gains "Darkvision 120 ft., faerie fire, spell resistance (5 + character level)" but nothing else. No HD, no skill points, no save bonuses.

At third level, the character can then take level 2 in the racial Drow class. The character gains " Cha +2, darkness, saving throw bonuses, spell resistance (11 + character level)", but nothing else. No HD, no skill points.

The character has now finished the Drow racial class. It is a 3rd level character and has all the same stats and abilities that a character would have if it had taken the Drow racial template at 1st level. The only difference is that you've been able to play the character at 1st and 2nd level.

Does that help?
Flushmaster
05-27-05, 04:35 AM A class level always grants a hit die; for every level of fighter a character has they get a d10, every level of wizard grants a d4, etc. If a character or NPC has class levels, this always occurs. First level grants maximum hit points (meaning 10 for a d10, 4 for a d4, etc), modified by any constitution modifier.

With "savage progressions" it gets a little more complicated, but not much. There are two possible methods to use with level adjustment races. One is a level adjustment; a character of a race with a +2 level adjustment begins play at "third level" and has one level of a class (gaining any listed racial hit dice automatically, none listed means none gained). A "monster class" progression, like in Savage Species, includes hit dice at any appropriate levels. Such "monster hit dice" don't grant max points at first level; either roll for each or take average for each.
jessewilson1011
05-27-05, 12:20 PM Thanks everybody, I get it now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jessewilson1011 05-26-05, 09:27 PM	I've read the complete Savage Progressions article about Level Adjusted Races and I need to know about hit dice.
stealth_monkey 05-26-05, 09:52 PM	I'll try to help as best I can, but I need a bit more specific information. What exactly do you want to know about them?
Nom 05-26-05, 09:58 PM	A hit die is a die you roll to get hit points. For a PC, every character level grants a hit die. Monsters just get HD directly. Levels = HD.
jessewilson1011 05-26-05, 11:18 PM	Well do they use the hit die of the class they want or their racial hit die, and would'nt the hit dice increase the ECL?
stealth_monkey 05-27-05, 01:20 AM	I personally rule that they use their given hit dice for the stated levels, but class levels added after that give the stated class hit dice (not 100% sure on the raw, but i'm almost certain its the same) Yes, it increases ecl, in fact total ecl is level adjustment + racial hit dice I think it may be clearer with an example Bob the mind flayer has just started his adventuring career. He has 8d8 racial hitdice, so that is the number of hp he starts with (not including con modifiers). The mind flayer race has a level adjustment of 7, so he has an ecl of 15, making him equivalant to a level 15 character. If he becomes a wizard he rolls d4's for his hp total every level as normal
Nom 05-27-05, 03:55 AM	Ok, 2 sorts of hit dice - character level HD and racial HD. Racial HD are what monsters (including many humanoids) have. Class HD are for class levels. Ignoring Savage Species, humanoids have a fixed number of racial HD (from 0 up). Any increase in levels / HD is via class levels in either NPC or PC classes. In contrast, monsters often get "bigger and tougher" by increasing their racial HD. In each case, see the "Advancement" entry: humanoids typically advance "by character class", while monsters have various HD and size listings. 3 examples from the MM: Goblin (pg 133), listed as "1st level warrior, small humanoid (goblinoid)", 1d8+1 HD. So the goblin has no racial HD, but a single class level of "warrior". If the goblin was a PC, he would replace that warrior level with whatever class he started in. Centaur (pg 32), listed as "large monstous humanoid", 4d8+8 HD. Note the absence of a class. This is the baseline centaur. If he was a PC, he would add his 1st class level as his 5th hit die. Winter Wolf (pg 256), listed as "large magical beast", 6d10+18 HD. Being a "monster", the winter wolf advances by gaining additional racial HD. Advancement is listed as 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge). Winter wolves are never PCs. However, sometimes a creature is more powerful than its HD indicate. For example, the centaur is Large and gains +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con. Although the centaur's "monstrous humanoid" HD are weaker than fighter HD, the fighter's slightly larger HD (d10 vs d8) and 3 bonus feats don't make up for the centaur's other bonuses. Thus, when considering levelling and XP, we penalise the centaur a +2 level handicap, called a "level adjustment". For example, a baseline centaur has 4 HD and a +2 LA, for an effective character level (ECL) of 6. When considering XP, the centaur is a level 6 character with at least 15,000 XP (PH pg 22) and requires 21,000 XP to gain ECL 7. For all other purposes (feats, hp, ...), the centaur has 4 HD. Note that the character is illegal below 15,000 XP. He needs 15,000 XP just to maintain his racial HD and ECL. In contrast, a human (0 racial HD, LA +0) with 0 XP gets to (and must) add a class level to take him to level 1. When the centaur achieves 21,000 XP, he can become ECL 7. He adds a level of fighter, and now has 4d8+1d10+5*Con HD (total 5 HD). For all intents and purposes except XP, he is a level 5 (or 5 HD) character. For calculating XP, we include his +2 LA and treat him as ECL 7. Savage Species contains rules to allow monstrous characters to spread out their racial HD and ECL, allowing them to exist as PCs below their minimum ECL.
Colmarr 05-27-05, 03:58 AM	Jesse, I assume you are referring to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Each racial class has base abilities and level abilities. It's easiest to explain with examples. Let's use Drow. By using this system, a 1st level Drow fighter gains: Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. Size: Drow are Medium size. Speed: Drow base land speed is 30 feet. Proficiencies: A drow is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword. Dancing Lights (Sp): A drow may use dancing lights (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day. Darkvision (Ex): A drow has darkvision to a 60-foot range. Immunities (Ex): A drow is immune to magic sleep effects. Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, he is dazzled as long as he remains in the affected area. Skill Bonuses: A drow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Furthermore, a drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). A multiclass drow's wizard or cleric class (male or female, respectively) does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies. The character is a Drow, but doesn't yet have all of the Drow racial abilities. Its HD, skills, saves, and BAB are based solely on class. So HD would be 1d10, skills would be (2+Int)x4, saves would be +2/+0/+0, and BAB would be +1. The character still counts as a first level character. At second level, the character can choose to take level 1 in the racial Drow class. The character gains "Darkvision 120 ft., faerie fire, spell resistance (5 + character level)" but nothing else. No HD, no skill points, no save bonuses. At third level, the character can then take level 2 in the racial Drow class. The character gains " Cha +2, darkness, saving throw bonuses, spell resistance (11 + character level)", but nothing else. No HD, no skill points. The character has now finished the Drow racial class. It is a 3rd level character and has all the same stats and abilities that a character would have if it had taken the Drow racial template at 1st level. The only difference is that you've been able to play the character at 1st and 2nd level. Does that help?
Flushmaster 05-27-05, 04:35 AM	A class level always grants a hit die; for every level of fighter a character has they get a d10, every level of wizard grants a d4, etc. If a character or NPC has class levels, this always occurs. First level grants maximum hit points (meaning 10 for a d10, 4 for a d4, etc), modified by any constitution modifier. With "savage progressions" it gets a little more complicated, but not much. There are two possible methods to use with level adjustment races. One is a level adjustment; a character of a race with a +2 level adjustment begins play at "third level" and has one level of a class (gaining any listed racial hit dice automatically, none listed means none gained). A "monster class" progression, like in Savage Species, includes hit dice at any appropriate levels. Such "monster hit dice" don't grant max points at first level; either roll for each or take average for each.
jessewilson1011 05-27-05, 12:20 PM	Thanks everybody, I get it now.