Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Death1942 03-27-08, 04:58 PM	ok this is our first adventure as a group. they rolled some wacky characters (ones a Mongolian archer) and we originally had a half ogre warrior. the half ogre was the party's tank and so many designed their characters to suit a group with a half ogre tank. something came up and the half ogre dropped out, this is where things went downhill and fast. we got a spirit shaman as a replacement and it was left to the rogue and ranger to pick up the lack of fighting power in the group. the rouge and ranger covered for the tank for two more levels of the dungeon and we are reaching the end. we still dont have a decent tank and after recently going up in levels the ranger chose 1 level of barbarian. hes being forced to account for the lack of meat shield in this party and i think its wrong. we have a dwarf cleric (2 cleric and 1 fighter) who is wearing splint mail, has a shield and wields an axe with d12 damage (double what the ranger can do). i want to see that dwarf become the frontline fighter, the tank. i need some suggestions to fix this problem and how to go about doing it. so far the group seems to not notice this problem and i feel (as we near the big nasty end dungeon monsters) that it will rear its ugly head soon. group makeup: 1. 2nd lvl Rogue 1st lvl Ranger 2. Mongolian archer (or scout i really dont know. it does skirmish damage) 3. 3rd lvl Wizard 4. 2nd level Spirit Shaman (he joined up about a 1/4 of the way thru so hes a little behind on XP) 5. 2nd lvl ranger 1st lvl Barbarian 6. 2nd level Cleric 1st lvl Fighter
Zherog 03-27-08, 05:03 PM	You don't need a tank; plenty of groups have survived just fine without a "front line" warrior type. The ranger shouldn't take a level of barbarian if he/she doesn't want to. And the cleric - while capable of the role, depending on domains - shouldn't be forced into the role either. Play the characters you want to play. You'll have more fun that way.
WilliamTanner 03-27-08, 05:16 PM	I think your group should simply work out some guerilla tactics and get it down to a routine. Find ways to slow down your opponents so they can't get to the wizard if the wizard is running around to avoid getting gotten.
Zherog 03-27-08, 05:20 PM	Yep, exactly.
Demetri_Knighthawk 03-27-08, 05:32 PM	change yor tactics as a DM. most people use a tank because there are some things a GM throws that requre a tank to take it. Remove what it is you need a tank for and they will be fine, example (and please correct me here) 1 minotaur guardian wearing splint mail and carrying a greataxe requres a tank. Lets swap out the 1 minotaur for 2 fullplate wearing gnomes with spears. We now have 2 reach using opponents with high AC, but not monsterous damage opponents. The team splits into 2 sets of 3 and each take on one gnome. No tank is needed as long as you dont use one. Sure, do have a single dangerous opponent now and again, but dont always make the boss require someone to take massive hp. Such as an assassin with charisma draining poison, even with your tank in the mix, he would be just as weakened by the poison as anyone else in the group. It seems loosely from what the party is, all of them are probably mid to low charisma, maby the shaman might have the highest cha of all, but that is only cause i'm not looking at character sheets.
Ace_of_time 03-27-08, 05:41 PM	ok this is our first adventure as a group. they rolled some wacky characters (ones a Mongolian archer) and we originally had a half ogre warrior. the half ogre was the party's tank and so many designed their characters to suit a group with a half ogre tank. something came up and the half ogre dropped out, this is where things went downhill and fast. we got a spirit shaman as a replacement and it was left to the rogue and ranger to pick up the lack of fighting power in the group. the rouge and ranger covered for the tank for two more levels of the dungeon and we are reaching the end. we still dont have a decent tank and after recently going up in levels the ranger chose 1 level of barbarian. hes being forced to account for the lack of meat shield in this party and i think its wrong. we have a dwarf cleric (2 cleric and 1 fighter) who is wearing splint mail, has a shield and wields an axe with d12 damage (double what the ranger can do). i want to see that dwarf become the frontline fighter, the tank. i need some suggestions to fix this problem and how to go about doing it. so far the group seems to not notice this problem and i feel (as we near the big nasty end dungeon monsters) that it will rear its ugly head soon. group makeup: 1. 2nd lvl Rogue 1st lvl Ranger 2. Mongolian archer (or scout i really dont know. it does skirmish damage) 3. 3rd lvl Wizard 4. 2nd level Spirit Shaman (he joined up about a 1/4 of the way thru so hes a little behind on XP) 5. 2nd lvl ranger 1st lvl Barbarian 6. 2nd level Cleric 1st lvl Fighter:eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: Why is he not the tank? Maybe you should smack the dwarf and then ask him ahy he isn't playing a dwarf. I mean isn't that the whole reason for dwarven cleric? (joking about the smack.) Really though why isn't he the tank? He is building for upclose fighting any way.
Death1942 03-28-08, 07:25 AM	i'm not the DM by the way. The dwarf has not flagged his attentions to become the party tank (last level he took was Cleric). as for playing the way they want, sure i got not problem with that and they dont really have much of a problem with change. If we asked the ranger to take levels in Cleric so he could become a healer then he is happy to do it. we are pretty solid on healing as the spirit shaman can pull off something like 3 minors and 3 cure light's a day. also we are heading to the Temple of Elemental Evil and the DM has stated (at least 8 times) that we need a decent tank
Zherog 03-28-08, 08:58 AM	If we asked the ranger to take levels in Cleric so he could become a healer then he is happy to do it. Two things. 1) The ranger doesn't need levels in cleric to perform healing tasks; he can use wands of cure spells from first level. 2) You're still thinking in terms of role. Don't. Forget completely about "tank, healer, blaster, and skill monkey." Every "role" can be worked around, there's no need to shoehorn somebody into it by forcing them to multiclass. Let everybody play the character they want to to play, and adjust your tactics to the strengths of the group. One of the most fun groups I've ever been played in was two wizards (an evoker and diviner), a sorcerer (heavy on evocation spells) and my rogue. Efficient? Hell no! Fun? Hell yes! also we are heading to the Temple of Elemental Evil and the DM has stated (at least 8 times) that we need a decent tank I've DMed it once, and my new group will be entering it in about a month. (I assume you mean Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil). I won't spoil anything for you, but I will say this. Your DM is wrong. You will do quite well overall in that adventure with hit and run tactics. Don't be afraid of retreat, that's all. Know when you're over your head and be ready to fall back.
Kuros81 03-28-08, 05:23 PM	Two things. 1) The ranger doesn't need levels in cleric to perform healing tasks; he can use wands of cure spells from first level. Really? Link? I consider myself an experienced player, but doesn't a ranger need to be able to cast spells first?
Zherog 03-28-08, 06:39 PM	For scrolls, yes. For wands, the only requirement is that the spell appear on your class's spell list - even if you can't cast that spell yet. Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. And, for some more quoting fun... Who can use a wand or other item that is activated with a spell trigger? I would think that you would have to be able to cast the stored spell. That is, you must have levels in a class that can cast the spell, have enough levels in that class to cast the stored spell, and have an ability score sufficient to cast that spell. If you’re a fighter with an Intelligence score of 9, you can’t just pick up a level of wizard and start using a wand of fireball, can you? Wands and other spell trigger items are for dedicated spellcasters who use them to carry around a few extra spells in case they run out, right? These are not items that allow dabblers to mimic true spellcasting ability. Still, some of my friends insist that you can use any spell trigger item (wand or staff) if you have at least one level in a class that could possibly cast the spell. They point to the term “spell list” in the description of spell trigger items in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Surely, that refers to the list of spell you can conceivably cast, not to a class’s entire spell list. After all, the Dungeon Master’s Guide does not use the term “class spell list” when talking about spell trigger items. Please preserve play balance in our local campaign by telling me that I’m right. Sorry, but your friends are correct. If you’re a member of a class that has spellcasting ability, you can use any spell trigger item that stores a spell that’s on your class’s spell list, even when you don’t have the class level or the ability score to cast the stored spell. This even applies when you don’t have enough class levels to cast any spells at all. For example, a paladin of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level has not yet gained any spellcasting ability, but she still can use spell trigger items that store spells on the paladin class list. If you’re a specialist wizard, spells from your opposition schools aren’t part of your class spell list, and you can’t use spell trigger items that store those spells. It’s true that the spell trigger text on page 213 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide does not use the words “class spell list,” but it should because having a spell on your class spell list is what’s required to use spell trigger items. Membership in a class gives you a smattering of magical knowledge, and that is sufficient to use a spell trigger item, even when you could not hope to cast the spell on your own or even read it correctly from a scroll—the character who made the pell trigger item has done all the hard work for you. Your example fighter/wizard could indeed lob fireballs out of a wand (provided the character is not a specialist wizard with evocation as an opposition school). Doing so isn’t much of a threat to the play balance in a campaign, nor will it make single-classed wizards or sorcerers in your world irrelevant. Fireball spells from dedicated spellcasters will, on the whole, deal more damage, penetrate spell resistance more readily, have higher save DCs, and have better range than fireballs from wands. The D&D game also includes other balancing factors, such as the experience penalty for multiclassing (although one can get around that by choosing the right race). Someone also has to make or pay for the wand, and that will prove an impediment to characters if the DM follows the Dungeon Master’s Guide guidelines for character wealth and awarding treasure. Your example character would be far better off packing wands that boost fighting abilities (shield and true strike are some the Sage’s favorites here). So there ya go. The example from the FAQ is a paladin, but a ranger gains spells exactly the same way and at the same level, so the same example applies.
Ace_of_time 03-28-08, 09:03 PM	What kind of build was he going for? Just wondering. I was just saying If someone post on here that they were going dwarf/cleric and wanted feat ideas. How many would be close combat suggestions. It was the old saying "if it looks like a duck". You really don't need a tank anyway. The wizard could just learn some summons. I wouldn't suggest anyone taking levels in something they don't want to.
defender_of_odintyr 03-28-08, 11:37 PM	I would say if the ranger/barbarian duel wields then him and the cleric should play front line after the cleric buffs them both. that should play a sufficiant front for your group.
Zherog 03-29-08, 12:22 AM	I would say if the ranger/barbarian duel wields then ... ...he'd have the worst damage output ever for a barbarian. * There - finished that thought for you. :)