Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tugar 06-15-04, 10:34 AM	I was wanting to play a ranger with the favored enemy of undead. My DM then tells me that I have to pick a subtype of undead. I told him that humanoid and outsider is the only favored enemy that require a player to pick a subtype, but he still says that I have to pick a subtype of undead. please help me resolve this issue with my DM.
ehrin 06-15-04, 11:01 AM	You can't resolve it. Apparently, your DM is invoking a different rule, and no amount of showing him the real rules will work. On a second note, you should think twice about undead as favored enemies... Your bonuses don't work really well on them, since they are immune to critical hits, they move very silently anyway, etc.. Unless, of course, the choice is simply for RP flavor.
superpriest 06-15-04, 11:35 AM	The bonuses work fine against undead, making it as good a choice as any. Your DM is just being a dork.
hekker 06-15-04, 11:45 AM	Ehrin: I believe they fixed it in 3.5 (although I don't have the 3.5 books so could be wrong) Tugar: There aren't even subtypes of undead. What are you expected to choose? Skeletons , Zombies, or Vampires? (that means, only 1 'monster manual' entry?) That would be plain stupid, just like saying you have to choose 1 aberation. Or you have to choose between 'corporeal' and 'incorporeal' undead, that would make a little more sense as a houserule. Plz clarify what you're expected to choose from, 'cos there aren't really undead 'subtypes' the way there are humanoid or outsider subtypes.
tugar 06-15-04, 11:51 AM	my DM expects me to choose like zombie, skeleton, or vampire.
tarkin 06-15-04, 11:52 AM	I would ask him to tell you what are the subtypes of undead, since he seems to think they exist and you should know they don't. Then point out that all the humanoid sub-types are labelled as such, and ask him how you are supposed to know which undead belong to which sub-type without asking him about it. Then ask him if he is going to let you do the extra damage against that subtype. Then ask him if he has any more House Rules he is going to be making about undead. If you don't like the answers ask him if he knows of any DM's that are running games with less House Rules.
ehrin 06-15-04, 05:13 PM	Hekker; thanks, you are right.. the rules are changed a bit. You at least get the +2 to your damage roll on undead, it is no longer critical based. You still don't get as great on your skills (The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type.), because there isn't much use bluffing undead, nor does sense motive or listen work well against them. But, it's better now, so choosing undead isn't as odd as it was.
deathbydesign 07-02-04, 02:36 PM	If you read the very first pages of your monster manual 3.5 it says here are the monsters by type and subtype. They are broken into corporal and Incorperal in MM1 3.5. In MM2, Feind Folio, And Monsters of Faerun there are some additional subtypes of undead. a subtpyes is the anything in the Like for example. Allip Undead(incorperal ) The subtypes ive seen in the books are incorperal extraplanar corperal earth good So there are subtypes ..and then you can templates to change those subtypes. And A Dm making you pick one is not out of the rules. How can you have extensive study of someting youve never encountered or seen? A favored enemy is something youve had study on . So its fair to say a Dm can rule you pick whats youve seen in your region of study in his game world.
Astanphaeus 07-02-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by tugar my DM expects me to choose like zombie, skeleton, or vampire. That's... kinda silly. If the DM is deadset on this (pardon the pun), just choose something else. Taking undead as a favored enemy already weakens the ability a tad (skills aren't as useful). Declaring that it's limited to just one type of undead creature renders the ability all but useless. ~ A.
Camellan 07-02-04, 03:18 PM	Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2. If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. Table: Ranger Favored Enemies Type (Subtype) Type (Subtype) Aberration Humanoid (reptilian) Animal Magical beast Construct Monstrous humanoid Dragon Ooze Elemental Outsider (air) Fey Outsider (chaotic) Giant Outsider (earth) Humanoid (aquatic) Outsider (evil) Humanoid (dwarf) Outsider (fire) Humanoid (elf) Outsider (good) Humanoid (goblinoid) Outsider (lawful) Humanoid (gnoll) Outsider (native) Humanoid (gnome) Outsider (water) Humanoid (halfling) Plant Humanoid (human) Undead Humanoid (orc) Vermin ____ Emphasis mine. It doesn't say pick a sub-type of undead. It says pick a catagory off the table. Astanphaeus is right. It's silly to pick a sub-type. You'll never get any use out of it. go with something else if the GM won't relent. You'll be much happier. D
Dunbar 07-02-04, 03:58 PM	Well, if the DM plans to have them fight and interact with nothing but undead for the campaign, then getting undead as a favored enemy is a bit too powerful. In that case, I can see a DM wanting to split favored enemy: undead into different categories...not to mention outlawing turning and the sun domain. However, outside of that one (and IMHO highly unlikely) scenario, asking rangers to pick subtypes of undead is unreasonable.
DLM2000 07-02-04, 04:52 PM	Well I've been watching this thread for some time now. So its time to post my response to it all. Well Tugar is right under normal circumstances you dont have to pick a certain type. But he forgot to mention all these things 1.) Playing in a campaign based solely off of undead and demons and few other things So undead encouters in the game where going to be 60% or so the rest demons and other things 2.) They were given a free feat as a group for hunting vampires (exotic Weapon prof stake) taken from dungeon magazine 3.) He was planning on multiclassing as a rogue Which isnt normally a problem but he was making the variant ranger from the Masters of the Wild book the lets you change out your skills and apply your bonus to damage to your AC instead. And it is a dodge bonus. Being a Dm I put that restriction on him in the sense he had to pick so he doesnt get a huge AC bonus to rougly 20+ diffrent creatures. 4.) Before he was told what sub type he had to pick he got all ****** and went on a rant. He was eventually told that he had to pick between the subtypes mentioned by deathbydesign incorperal, extraplanar,corperal ,earth,good so he wouldnt not have a huge advantage over everyone else 5.) He was wanting to take supernatural crit as well so he could do extra damage to things he cant normally crit Having all that said i put that restriction on him .. In that type of campaign other classes are already at disadvantages and some cant use class ablities. rogue for example; they loose there sneak attack for the most part. most of the fighter based clases cant even touch incoperal undead most of the time ... clerics and paldins are limited on there undead turning attempts ...so the ranger had to pick a sub type to matain some balance. In a campaign that was mostly gonna deal with vampires and undead and the hunting of supernatural. The Whole adventure is based on the premise that they work for a Orginzation that is out to stop the spread of undead,demons, and supernatural creatures. Theres even a city in the campaign world based of nothing but undead.So in no way shape or form was he being limited he was trying make a ungodly superhuman character for the campaign. I balanced it out the best way I saw fit. So before People comment and go all wonky 1.) Read you monster manual There really are subtypes 2.) Make sure you get all the information from the player 3.) Remember The Dm is always right they know there campaign and whats going on. Everyone has a house rule of some sort that they run for there games. And they all have theyre reason for them . And anyone that thinks that not balancing out that sorta thing in that type of campaign is on something
was_fired 07-02-04, 07:57 PM	1. Incorporal is not a subtype of undead, neither is earth, nor is evil. These are all general subtypes which ANY creature can have. 2. Okay... I'm missing the point here. 3. So don't allow it. That varient was written for 3.0 when rangers couldn't get a favored enemy bonus against all foes. Now they can. Also as splat book content it is well within your rights to flat out ban it. 4. The advantage were talking about isn't that huge. At 5th level he gets +4 damage vs undead. At 5th level a fighter can get +2 damage vs everything when using a weapon which for which they have specilization. 5. It is well within your rights to ban the supernatural bow feat even though it really isn't very powerful. Lets say this guy is using an archery ranger and takes this feat. At 10th level he can crit an undead for 1d8 + 2d6 + 6 + Str which is nice. A fighter with a greatsword can simply hit the undead for 2d6 + 2 + 1.5 * Str. Now if the ranger has a strength of 14 and the fighter a strength of twenty we end up with the ranger averaging 19.5 on a critical hit with 12.5 on a normal hit. The fighter averages 16 damage on any hit.
Edward 07-02-04, 08:31 PM	Open your PHB to where it says you don’t need to choose a subtype, point to it and say “are you making a house rule” if he says yes ask “what is your Compleat house rules relevant to my character staring with favoured enemies” If you have to choose a specific type of undead don’t choose undead it wont come up often enough If he won’t give you all the house rules walk now. That is one of the things I will never tolerate in a GM. Looking at that table posted by Camellan I notes that it is imposable to get a favoured enemy bonus on a skeleton of a giant. Or a shape shifter and probably a lot of other things. I can’t believe rangers cant be lycanthrope hunters. DLM2000. I would be very surprised if every undead has ether the corporeal or non corporeal subtype (as they are a mutually exclusive totalagy within undead) so that is actually a very minimal reduction (I would be moving to take 1 corporeal 2 outsider (evil) 3 non corporial and then out there values level as high as I can manage (makes sens from organization and mechanics). Note these paragraphs where written as I read posts. I did not back edit earlier paragraphs as they are useful to others Edward
Astanphaeus 07-02-04, 09:43 PM	Originally posted by DLM2000 1.) Playing in a campaign based solely off of undead and demons and few other things So undead encouters in the game where going to be 60% or so the rest demons and other things So, about 40% of the encounters, he wouldn't get the bonus. I don't see the issue, frankly. If you're playing a ranger, it's in your best interests to choose a favored enemy that you're going to run into a fair amount of the time... otherwise there's really no point. This is one of the advantages of the class, and it's why the enemies are so generalized to begin with. It is precisely because there is an emphasis on undead that he should pick undead as the favored enemy. That's the point. 2.) They were given a free feat as a group for hunting vampires (exotic Weapon prof stake) taken from dungeon magazine If this is an across-the-board benefit, then I fail to see how it's relevant. 3.) He was planning on multiclassing as a rogue Which isnt normally a problem but he was making the variant ranger from the Masters of the Wild book the lets you change out your skills and apply your bonus to damage to your AC instead. And it is a dodge bonus. Being a Dm I put that restriction on him in the sense he had to pick so he doesnt get a huge AC bonus to rougly 20+ diffrent creatures. Huge AC bonus? As has been mentioned, you can just disallow the MotW variant, but I don't see where it's a big deal. He gives up one bonus for another. 4.) Before he was told what sub type he had to pick he got all ****** and went on a rant. He was eventually told that he had to pick between the subtypes mentioned by deathbydesign incorperal, extraplanar,corperal ,earth,good so he wouldnt not have a huge advantage over everyone else I disagree that he has "a huge advantage" over everyone else. He's playing a ranger. Favored Enemy is one of the central class features that puts him on par with everyone else. You're crippling that class feature. He therefore becomes subpar. He'd probably be better off with a barbarian or fighter. 5.) He was wanting to take supernatural crit as well so he could do extra damage to things he cant normally crit So disallow it. Better that than mucking with the basics of a class. In that type of campaign other classes are already at disadvantages and some cant use class ablities. rogue for example; they loose there sneak attack for the most part. Then players should build their characters accordingly. If you're running an urban campaign, do you hobble all the classes so that they have no advantage over the druid and ranger? Some classes are just better suited for different campaigns. This player is building a character that's in accordance with the campaign you're running, and you're effectively punishing him for it. most of the fighter based clases cant even touch incoperal undead most of the time Yeah, that'd include the Ranger, so non-issue ... clerics and paldins are limited on there undead turning attempts How so? In a campaign that was mostly gonna deal with vampires and undead and the hunting of supernatural. Which is why a Ranger should choose Favored Enemy: Undead. The Whole adventure is based on the premise that they work for a Orginzation that is out to stop the spread of undead,demons, and supernatural creatures. All the more reason to choose Favored Enemy: Undead. Theres even a city in the campaign world based of nothing but undead. Yet more reason to choose Favored Enemy: Undead. So in no way shape or form was he being limited he was trying make a ungodly superhuman character for the campaign. So, let me get this straight... 1. It's a campaign world in which there are many undead. 2. There is a city populated exclusively by undead. 3. The characters belong to an organization that hunts... undead. So, this player goes about building a character that specializes in hunting undead... and you're complaining about it? Okeedokee! Question: why don't you just make your undead tougher? 1.) Read you monster manual There really are subtypes Read your Dungeon Masters Guide and Players Handbook. 2.) Make sure you get all the information from the player We're not obligated to assume someone's misleading us. 3.) Remember The Dm is always right That may apply to your table, but it doesn't apply here. Everyone has a house rule of some sort that they run for there games. Yep, and some of them are inappropriate and/or silly. And they all have theyre reason for them. And their reasoning is sometimes flawed. And anyone that thinks that not balancing out that sorta thing in that type of campaign is on something Yeah, okay. :rolleyes: tugar, I'm going to revise my suggestion: Find another game. ~ A.
The Half-Orc Wizard 07-05-04, 04:23 PM	PWNED!