Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevtar 06-30-06, 03:22 PM	Hi all, I've been playing a rogue for the first time in 20+years of D&D and love it. I responded to an invitation from the DM of this group to play, and the members of the group (including the DM) thought a rogue would be a good addition since they didn't have one in the party. Well, I've had a blast, but a large percentage of the combats are undead (Age of Worms campaign). In addition, the DM gave me two 'legendary weapons' (daggers), so I'm TWF with 2(1d4+1) with no sneak attack damage vs. undead with 17HD (for example). As such, my PC isn't very useful in combat. I've multi-classed a bit into Fighter and Wizard just to mix things up, but I'm still not very effective vs. undead; and there's a lot of them. Any suggestions?
Rickiel 06-30-06, 03:28 PM	Well if you hadn't already multiclassed into wizard or fighter I'd have suggested multiclassing into Cleric and using the Gravestrike spell as often as needed. However, there is mucho hopo for you! I'm assuming that you have taken at most 2-3 levels of wizard. If so, these low-level spells should be used with tactics in mind. Like denying dex bonuses even if you can't sneak attack. Perhaps you can invest some cash and resources into researching a swift spell that would allow you to Sneak Attack undead for a full round. Maybe you can team up with the party's priest to come up with a magical item that allows you to deal critical damage (and thus Sneak Attack) to undead in melee. Well that's all the suggestions I've got for now. Good luck!
LuckyLeprechaun 06-30-06, 03:34 PM	Well, this doesn't specifically fight undead, but you might consider working into daggerspell mage. You already fight with 2 daggers, you're already at least partly a wizard, and you already have sneak attack. Daggerspell mage will allow you to have many more damaging options in combat as it has 9/10 caster levels, which will get you more spells, which you channel into your daggers for damage and added effect against the undead. Though, it could be better to forget about it all together, forget combat, focus more on being a skill-monkey. Your party can understand the problems you're having against the undead and allow you to focus more on disabling traps and opening locks.
danielinthewolvesden 06-30-06, 04:13 PM	Hi all, I've been playing a rogue for the first time in 20+years of D&D and love it. I responded to an invitation from the DM of this group to play, and the members of the group (including the DM) thought a rogue would be a good addition since they didn't have one in the party. Well, I've had a blast, but a large percentage of the combats are undead (Age of Worms campaign). In addition, the DM gave me two 'legendary weapons' (daggers), so I'm TWF with 2(1d4+1) with no sneak attack damage vs. undead with 17HD (for example). As such, my PC isn't very useful in combat. I've multi-classed a bit into Fighter and Wizard just to mix things up, but I'm still not very effective vs. undead; and there's a lot of them. Any suggestions? There's the Skullclan Hunter in the Mini Handbook, it allows Sneak Attack vs Undead. However, it requires some Turning. See if your DM will allow you to get rid of the Wizard and maybe the Fighter levels, and take a level of Cleric, then Skullclan Hunter ASAP. It sounds like you are high level? Thus, a Cl1/Ro5/SkCH8 or whatever will do the job.
Andrew 06-30-06, 04:15 PM	Three options, combine as needed. I'm not familiar with the campaign setting, so I don't know how that limits your options. 1. If there is a cleric in the party that can spare a few spell slots, have him/her cast imbue with spell ability, giving you the ability to cast 3 copies of the Gravestrike spell (it's of the Divination school, so eligable for imbue), one of them Extended for two rounds if he/she has the feat. That will give you 4 rounds in total of undead sneak-attacking without having to take more levels of different things and is the best option for an undead adventure within a more diverse campaign. 2. Multiclass to Cleric or Favored Soul to pick up the ability to cast Gravestrike yourself. If you only splash this, still consider combining with option #1 to get more uses. 3. If you have a Good alignment, and can pick up the ability to turn undead and 8 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) (probably by multiclassing Cleric), the Skullclan Hunter prestige class from the Miniatures Handbook should let you sneak attack undead at will. While I was writing, I see someone else posted this suggestion as well.
utilitarian 06-30-06, 04:17 PM	Minatures handbook. Skullclan Hunter. Second level. Divine Strike. "Due to his specialized skill, training, and connection to the forces of light, the Skullclan Hunter of 2nd level or higher can make a special attack that is infused with positive energy. Effectively, this ability allows him to deal extra damage to undead as though making a sneak attack. Divine Strike damage applies to any sneak attack dice the hunter has already, or those he gains through advancement in this class" There, done. 2 levels in a PrC and you can sneak attack undead all the time. You will, however, need a level of cleric first so that you can turn undead as a pre-req for this class. Plus there's a ton of other useful stuff like immunities to disease and energy drain, track undead, overcoming any undead damage reduction and having your weapons always be ghost touch. It's really the way to go for a rogue in an undead campaign.
Damior 06-30-06, 06:58 PM	I would suggest using the rogue variant in Unearthed arcana that gets bonus feats instead of sneak attack or, you may need to go through one of the rebuilds in players handbook 2. One of them works real nicely in an undead campaign
allenchan 06-30-06, 07:02 PM	Wow, multiclassing is the worst choice for you. Rogue/Fighter/Wizard should pretty much ensure you're useless in just about every situtation. Ask to retool your character and go the skullclan hunter route. (or rogue/cleric/shadowbane stalker, or all three) Also, there is the worm hunter prc in a dragon mag. specificly made for the age of worms, I think it has rogue flavored options. And just a side note, while yes, the age of worms does have a lot of undead, especially the final few epic battles, most (more then half) of the enemies are not undead. big monsters, cultists, dragons, giants, etc.
MerlintheTuna 07-01-06, 12:20 AM	Actually, as long as you have at least one level in Wizard, you can use arcane wands freely; take advantage of that. If the party has a wizard, have him craft you a wand or three; it'll take some of the burden off of him and give you some wacky things to do from time to time.
ressurrector 07-01-06, 12:44 AM	Actually, as long as you have at least one level in Wizard, you can use arcane wands freely; take advantage of that. If the party has a wizard, have him craft you a wand or three; it'll take some of the burden off of him and give you some wacky things to do from time to time. There's some argument about if a wand of grave strike would work at all (if that is what you are insinuating) as all wands take a standard action to activate regardless of the spell. That and the fact that Grave Strike is 1round only means you have only a move action to use the effect. Additionally Grave Strike is divine only, you can't get it on a Wizards spell list. Personally I would try and find or have made an item with #/day uses of Grave strike, it would be fairly cheap for a 1st level spell, and 1st level caster. 1 x 1 x 1800(command word, or 2000 use-activated) x 4(I think this is the multiplier for x-round duration, check the DMG pricing tables) x #/5 (where # is the times/day, if continuous it's same cost as 5/day) roughly 1,440 for 1/day command word, and 8,000 for continuous use-activated. There is also the feat: Razing Strike from the Complete Adventurer, which allows you to add Sneak Attack damage to undead/constructs by sacraficing a spell. Divine for undead and Arcane for constructs. It is also worth noting you get a dmg and attack bonus from the level of the spell sacraficed, and you do not need to meet any sneak attack requisite conditions, you just add the damage to all attacks for the round.
TLomon 07-01-06, 12:51 AM	I think Quintissential Rogue (by Mongoose) has a feat that allows sneak attacks against undead.
Bane 07-01-06, 12:52 AM	There's some argument about if a wand of grave strike would work at all (if that is what you are insinuating) as all wands take a standard action to activate regardless of the spell. That and the fact that Grave Strike is 1round only means you have only a move action to use the effect. Who's talking about a wand of grave strike? If you can, take more wizard levels until you get to Wizard 5, and grab Craft Wand. You're already Two-Weapon Fighting, so go with Dual Wand Wielder. Start wandslinging like there's no tomorrow.
Sands_Of_Chaos 07-01-06, 02:24 AM	I think the problem is all atitude my vexxed comrade. You gotta let those zombies know who's the boss. Some zombie comes up to me, I say "hey! You better step back before I kick you in the nuts!" and the zombie was all like "uhhns", he was all talk. So you tell those hordes of abominations that your gonna sneak attack them and they are gonna like it!
kelvinaw273 07-01-06, 02:54 AM	Two feats to help you - Raizing Strike (Complete Adventurer) and Arcane Strike (Complete Arcane I think). Either allows you to sacrifice spells for damage, the former allows a sneak attack against constructs and undead, the latter grants an extra 1d4 damage vs anything per spell level sacrificed. Now advance as an Arcane Trickster (DMG) to maximise your rogue/wizard skills - oh, and take Practiced Caster: Wizard to boost your casting level.
crow04 07-01-06, 09:27 AM	arcane stike is in complte warrior
Edwind 07-01-06, 06:38 PM	OH, OH, OH. I KNOW THIS ONE. I love awnsering this one. If you look in The minis handbook. PrC Skullclan something. Lets you sneak attack undead, and you gain some immunities to them. If you're a Good character. Book of Exalted Deeds. Sactified Strike I think. Against evil creatures. Your sneak attack changes from a d6 to a d8. Your welcome. Edwind.
Kevtar 07-01-06, 06:40 PM	Wow, multiclassing is the worst choice for you. Rogue/Fighter/Wizard should pretty much ensure you're useless in just about every situtation. Ask to retool your character and go the skullclan hunter route. (or rogue/cleric/shadowbane stalker, or all three) Also, there is the worm hunter prc in a dragon mag. specificly made for the age of worms, I think it has rogue flavored options. And just a side note, while yes, the age of worms does have a lot of undead, especially the final few epic battles, most (more then half) of the enemies are not undead. big monsters, cultists, dragons, giants, etc. Although I respect your opinion, in this particular party nothing could be further from the truth. My levels in figher have helped with feats, fort, and BAB. My levels in Wizard have helped me buff AC, speed (expeditious retreat anyone + sneak attack anyone?), and of course the skills that come with a rogue with High Dex and High Int. My greatest concern deals primarily with undead. There's just not a whole lot I can do right now with them. Perhaps I should get some holy enhancements or undead bane. Items/feat/etc outside of are approved piece by piece with about 90% of the extras as contraband.
fallensavior 07-01-06, 08:11 PM	Although I respect your opinion, in this particular party nothing could be further from the truth. My levels in figher have helped with feats, fort, and BAB. My levels in Wizard have helped me buff AC, speed (expeditious retreat anyone + sneak attack anyone?), and of course the skills that come with a rogue with High Dex and High Int. My greatest concern deals primarily with undead. There's just not a whole lot I can do right now with them. Perhaps I should get some holy enhancements or undead bane. Items/feat/etc outside of are approved piece by piece with about 90% of the extras as contraband. three words: dual sun blades double damage on a d10 short sword
wonlee76 07-02-06, 04:26 PM	UMD and/or spell selection could help you. Since you're multi-classing and stuff, UMD is probably the best approach. Get scrolls/wands/staves of something that is particular effective against undead. Wand of MM or Orbs of Force for incorporeal undead. I think there is a spell that can grant weapons the "bane" enhancement for a short period of time (Its probably in Spell Compendium and/or in one of the Complete books). Or get undead bane on your weapons if you can afford it. Get a staff of fire for booming stuff up (8d6 damage and the DC is set off of your Int which is a nice bonus). As a straight class rogue, I use UMD to fill in for the times when I know sneak attack will not work so the same approach should work just as easily here. If you can swing it, get the Ghost Strike Enhancement on your weapons (+2 Weapon enhancement in Libris Mortis). This gives you the ability to sneak attack incorporeal undead creatures. If you can't get any of the above, then just sit back and be an "assist" PC against the undead creatures. Flank to give your melee guy a bonus to hit. Learn to accept that you can't be good at everything (though with the proper resources you could be minimize the weaknesses).
Deathstalker 07-03-06, 03:21 PM	Just out of curiosity, what makes these daggers "legendary"? Are they legacy weapons, or do they just have a powerful history to them? If they're not legacy weapons, then what I would do is be prepared to drop some cash on your daggers and then you'll be relatively set. Just make them +1 holy undeadbane (I'd add ghost-touch for good measure, but if you're just looking for damage, you can skip it). It's expensive (Net cost for upgrading the both of them will be 64,000g) but it'll make you pretty effective in just about all Age of Worms situations. Also, remember that as a rogue you're not always supposed to be combat effective, sometimes the fighter and the spell casters have to pick up the slack, you have your own valuable contributions that can be made to the campaign in the form of your multitude of skills. If you still feel useless, pick up some wands and max out your UMD.
Kevtar 07-03-06, 06:36 PM	I thought about doing something like that, but I really don't know what the DM has planned. Here are the descriptions for the daggers. The daggers are called "Chaos" and "trickery." TRICKERY: Trickery is a +2 dagger with the following abilities: Trickster's Bluff: The wielder of Trickery is granted a +5 competence bonus to Bluff checks. Granted Spells: The wielder of Trickery is granted the following spellcasting abilities, which are cast at a spellcasting level equal to the wielder's combined rogue and bard levels: Spell Name Times per Day Disguise Self 1 Unknown Unknown Unknown CHAOS: Chaos is a +2 dagger with the following abilities: Anarchic Backstab: When sneak attacking with Chaos, the wielder does an additional +4d6 sneak attack damage against lawful creatures. Granted Spells: The wielder of Chaos is granted the following spellcasting abilities, which are cast at a spellcasting level equal to the wielder's combined rogue and bard levels: Spell Name Times per Day Protection from Law 1 Chaos Hammer 1 Unknown Unknown Combined Powers If the wielder of Chaos and Trickery uses no other melee or ranged weapons for one week, the wielder is granted the following additional abilities. Use of any other melee or ranged weapon will revoke these abilities until an additional week of exclusive use has been made. Drink of the Festive: Once per day, the wielder of Chaos and Trickery can change a gallon of water per combined rogue and bard levels into average quality beer. Call of Olidammara: Once per day, as a standard action, the wielder of Chaos and Trickery can call upon the aid of Olidammara. Roll on the following table to determine results: Die Roll Result 1 Gain 1 Action point that must be spent during the next 10 rounds. 2 Olidimmara's Quickstrike attacks the wielder and deals 1d6+5+xd6 damage, where x equals the wielder's sneak attack value. 3 Wielder gains Invisibility for 1d6 rounds. 4 Wielder is drained for 2d6 Dexterity 5 A Chaos Beast is summoned and fights for the wielder for 1d10 rounds. 6 The wielder's sneak attacks are increased by 4d6 for 1d4 rounds. 7 The wielder loses 1/10th of the experience difference between what is needed for current level and next level. Chaos and Trickery gain this XP. 8 Wielder gains Greater Invisibility for 1d4 rounds. 9 Wielder is nauseated for 1d6 rounds 10 Wielder gains the granted power of the Luck domain for 1 hour. 11 Wielder suffers a -10 penalty to skill checks for 1d6 hours. 12 Wielder gains the effects of Moment of Prescience for 1 hour. Granted Spells: The wielder of Chaos and Trickery is granted the following spellcasting abilities, which are cast at a spellcasting level equal to the wielder's combined rogue and bard levels: Spell Name Times per Day Glibness 1 Unknown 0 Unknown 0 Unknown 0 The daggers drain 10% of my XP and "level-up" as PCs. They are 300xp away from 3rd level, making them both +3 and adding additional spell-like abilities and increasing the sneak attack damage by an additional 1d6. So they are cool daggers. I think I will get the Bane ability vs. undead on my longbow or something along those lines.
xvthreetwoonevx 07-03-06, 07:49 PM	Disruption: A weapon of disruption is the bane of all undead. Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be destroyed. A weapon of disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.) Strong conjuration; CL 14th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, heal; Price +2 bonus. Ability Focus: Disruption. (Technically not YOUR ability, but you ARE weilding the weapon that has it. Perhaps see if you can't get it enchanted more to increase the DC. Either way, zombies go bye-bye.)
Archmage_Vall 07-04-06, 12:33 AM	Maybe get your hands on some Holy daggers of Undead Bane? Still can't sneak attack, but you'll be doing plenty of damage even without it.
wonlee76 07-07-06, 10:34 AM	Hmm, considering the powers on your legendary daggers, I guess carrying around an extra weapon is out of the question since you will lose out on the "combined" abilities if you do. Since you lose the benefits if using weapons, I suggest scrolls/wands and UMD. At least scrolls and wands shouldn't make you lose the combo benefits.
TarlSS 07-07-06, 03:27 PM	PHB2 allows you to switch out a slower Uncanny Dodge progression in favor of being able to sac sneak attack damage to give the target -5 to AC. This works on things that normally cannot be criticalled. It essentially gives the rogue a less powerful, but very effective sneak attack. Pretty much the rogue 'tricking' the target into being more vulnerable. (In the case of zombies/golems, taking advantage of the fact that they're stupid as balls.)
AZNsupermarket 07-07-06, 06:08 PM	take a level of spell-thief and borrow grave-strike from the party cleric to sneak atttack undead