Post/Author/DateTime	Post
staffofthemagi 09-04-07, 09:07 PM	we have already had 1 TPKs and nearly 3 near TPK's, and we are only just finishing SGoS. We are all experienced players, but when we got TPK'd the DM only allowed us to make lvl 6 characters, with half starting wealth (6500gp), and could only buy equipment from the PHB...and we can only choose feats and races and classes that are in the PHB also. We are starting the RHoD...not looking forward to all the TPK's there, because it is already brutal enough, add these choices...:s My question is what should I/the rest of the players do in this situation. Sadly he is the only steady game in my area, and I would LOVE to find another game to play in, but unfortuneatly I can't. This is the exact same reason we ended our last campaign he DMed.
Kouk 09-04-07, 09:36 PM	Get together with the players and discuss whether you all like these rules or not. Then, take the shared complaints to the DM. If he is any kind of reasonable, he will consider them seriously. A lot of people don't notice when people are unhappy even when it might be believed obvious. You have to talk or nothing happens. Also, some DMs are "old school" or "Gygax style" DMs, which pretty much boils down to "As the DM, my job is to kill the players as much as possible while following the rules to the letter." This adversarial relationship of course results in many party wipes. Many players actually prefer this style though, as they find it more "realistic" and don't want the DM to pull punches. It may also be he is following the adventure path too strictly and/or not altering it based on what the party is actually capable of. For instance, if he knows nobody is a Rogue of any sort, a DM might choose to remove or minimize the number of traps and locks, because the party is not prepared to deal with them. Following the adventure exactly and not making changes is also a style of DMing that some DMs and Players like for the challenge though. Discuss with the other players if they feel the same way you do.
staffofthemagi 09-04-07, 09:59 PM	We have discussed the issue at hand, and I must say we are not impressed, as this was the reason we ended our last campaign. I have played in campaigns where we have been tested, brutally beaten, but we have never had a TPK. He ended the last campaign because of this problem, and said he would re-evaluate everything, and to be honest we haven't noticed any changes. Now I for one, as a DM never fudge, and always let the dice land where they land, and I have never ever had a TPK, and the other players only have once, because it was the ToH. We like that it is realistic, but with every other session at least one player making a new character is getting out of hand, and the story can't progress well because of the constant introduction of new characters. Our last party consisted of a Wizard, Paladin, Cleric and a Rogue NPC (who never found traps:rolleyes: :mad: :confused: ). We have been wiped out so bad, and it isnt fun anymore. Our main concern and problem is that we get half the starting gold (6500gp as opposed to 13000), can only buy gear from the PHB, and nothing better than masterwork. Some other players want to be able to take feats from the Complete books, but he won't allow it.
Asciiman 09-04-07, 10:14 PM	You have no right to complain about the not allowing any extra books into his game. They are clearly all optional, so you can't complain about the issues with the Complete Warrior. Period. But do what Kouk suggested. Get all the players on the same page and talk to the DM about it before you come here.
CCS 09-05-07, 03:01 AM	This is going to sound rather cold & harsh, but.... Learn to play smarter. I Dm'd a party of 3 characters - a ranger, a barbarian, and a sorcerer - through most of RHoD ( I picked up the reins in chapter 3 when our DM had to take an unexpected leave). And their ONLY death came in the final battle of Brindol. The barbarian was felled by crit from a hill giant.... The gratefull citizens had him resurected. Other than that there were no other deaths. A few close calls, but no deaths. And it wasn't for a lack of effort on my part either. I routinely doubled the CR of fights against them, played the hoards leaders as smart as the characters trying to kill them, etc. So if you experience multiple TPKs, then I'll hazard a guess that somethings off.
Thubby 09-05-07, 03:24 AM	You have no right to complain about the not allowing any extra books into his game. They are clearly all optional, so you can't complain about the issues with the Complete Warrior. Period. But do what Kouk suggested. Get all the players on the same page and talk to the DM about it before you come here. not having other books means less optimized characters which are less powerful. that is something to complain about with those murderific equip rules. hes basically saying "the DM isn't giving us anything to work with". i uh, 3rd is it now? the "talk to the DM" suggestion. barring that, monks, druids, and sorcerers for all!
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-05-07, 09:07 AM	Forget monk, monk is more boned than most characters with no magic equipment whatsoever. Two druids and two clerics, though, or better yet four druids, that ought to tear things up pretty well. Wild shape more or less obviates the need for magic equipment (magic equipment will always be better to have, but it's not needed). If you prefer/need to stay in more or less human form, and are stuck with mundane gear, Disrupting Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and Shillelagh are your friends. If you go with the clerics have at least one cleric have the Magic domain, so he can use found spell trigger and spell completion items (wands, scrolls, and staves basically) meant for wizards.
Thubby 09-05-07, 10:28 AM	Forget monk, monk is more boned than most characters with no magic equipment whatsoever. vop...
DrMorganes 09-05-07, 11:07 AM	... is from a book the DM won't allow. If you haven't already discussed your misgivings with the DM, do that first. Remember that you, as players, have the ultimate authority to vote with your feet. If all the players don't like the DM's rules, leave. One of you can pick up as DM, toss an NPC into the party to round it out until you can find a 4th player, and game on.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-05-07, 11:16 AM	... is from a book the DM won't allow.That is a problem, otherwise Brambles would've been on my suggested spell list. Even if he were allowing more books, though, VoP isn't going to help a monk with needs like flight.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 09-05-07, 11:54 AM	You have no right to complain about the not allowing any extra books into his game. They are clearly all optional, so you can't complain about the issues with the Complete Warrior. Period. But do what Kouk suggested. Get all the players on the same page and talk to the DM about it before you come here. Given that he, and the other players, have a right to have fun. And that the DM is preventing that, he has every right to complain. Get all the players together and talk with the DM. If that fails, elect a new a DM. You may or may not wish to invite the old to play, that is entirely up to you. Either way though it is time for you to make the game more fun for yourselves, and they may mean that you need the services of a different DM. Perhaps it is time for youto step up to the plate.
kriskey 09-05-07, 12:39 PM	Slightly different perspective, but ... honestly ... that sounds -- in a way -- awesome to me. Our party has the opposite problem right now. 9th level now. No one has died a single time. Or even, really, been that close. It feels... dishonest. And less fun because I don't feel I have to play well or that intelligently. I'll admit that TPKs are the epitome of UN-fun, but the idea that the DM is playing the enemy well and honestly to the best of his abilities sounds refreshing from my perpsective. I totally crave such a challenge. If I die, I die. But, I'd love to pit my abilities in a fair environment. I guess there must a happy medium there somewhere. I think TPKs, though, should always be possible.
taradusis 09-08-07, 10:34 AM	Have everybody play a class with at least D8's.Consider recruiting more warm bodies to fill the chairs?Two temporary people who can play Barbarians might swing things in your favor?
1red13 09-13-07, 01:45 PM	What could the dms reasoning of using half starting wealth and equipment only out of the phb. The way i read it sounds like no magic allowed, which sounds almost petty if they are sixth level. Only core books is no big deal, there is plenty of stuff in there. Not knowing all the details one can only guess but it does sound like the dm is trying to be a bit of a control freak with the stipulations
Phrennzy 09-13-07, 04:20 PM	We are all experienced players, but when we got TPK'd the DM only allowed us to make lvl 6 characters, That's a good level to start RHOD. with half starting wealth (6500gp), Wait, what? and could only buy equipment from the PHB Huh? What? I would put it plain and simple to the DM that he is being unfair. You have to talk to him and explain how starting out as a gimped character is not fun. You will be under equipped by half - more than half since you have no access to any sort of magic item. There is no way around it, he is not thinking this through. I can understand if he was letting you come across the bodies of the fallen previous characters, and thus you get thier equipment...but otherwise, you are screwed. Sadly he is the only steady game in my area, and I would LOVE to find another game to play in, but unfortuneatly I can't. This is the exact same reason we ended our last campaign he DMed. Well, this is not true. You can DM. Grab the DMG and give it a whirl. But before you come to that, sit down and tell him how you feel. If you have to do it as a group, do so (just try not to be threatening, cause it will easily put him on the defensive.) Be sure to tell him one thing you like for every one thing you don't like. Give him constructive criticism. Have a reason "why" you don't like something. "I don't like that we have to only buy things from the PHB." Is not good. "I think we should be able to buy things from the DMG and PHB, because only using the PHB means we have no access to magic weapons, wands, scrolls, etc." This is better. Talk to him, and sort it out. If you can't, you may need to form your own group. Let us know how it goes.
Jexil 09-13-07, 07:12 PM	We are all experienced players, but when we got TPK'd the DM only allowed us to make lvl 6 characters, with half starting wealth (6500gp), and could only buy equipment from the PHB. I can't even imagine spending 6500 gp on just items from the PHB. Seriously, what would you buy? A couple of telescopes? Stock up on holy water & alchemist's fire? Get all your gear in masterwork quality, including torches and backpacks?
Lotusblossom 09-13-07, 09:58 PM	I can't even imagine spending 6500 gp on just items from the PHB. Seriously, what would you buy? A couple of telescopes? Stock up on holy water & alchemist's fire? Get all your gear in masterwork quality, including torches and backpacks? A mighty composite longboW and 2 keelboats. The second boat iS in case the first one fails to hit.
Thubby 09-13-07, 10:37 PM	A mighty composite longboW and 2 keelboats. The second boat iS in case the first one fails to hit. :rofl: :cookie:
metalmayhem80110 09-14-07, 04:31 AM	Just all play druids, maybe 1 cleric and 1 barbarian/fighter. With a group of mostly druids, you'll blow past anything that is even close to your level.
Phrennzy 09-14-07, 10:28 AM	I can't even imagine spending 6500 gp on just items from the PHB. Seriously, what would you buy? A couple of telescopes? Stock up on holy water & alchemist's fire? Get all your gear in masterwork quality, including torches and backpacks? Shopkeeper: "May I help you, sir?" PC: "Yes, I'd like six water clocks please."
Ecalsneerg 09-14-07, 11:38 AM	Shopkeeper: "May I help you, sir?" PC: "Yes, I'd like six water clocks please." *dragon swoops down* ROGUE: Anyone got a magic sword? CLERIC: Time of death: 12:00...
Man in the Funny Hat 09-14-07, 11:52 AM	we have already had 1 TPKs and nearly 3 near TPK's, and we are only just finishing SGoS. We are all experienced players, but when we got TPK'd the DM only allowed us to make lvl 6 characters, with half starting wealth (6500gp), and could only buy equipment from the PHB...and we can only choose feats and races and classes that are in the PHB also. We are starting the RHoD...not looking forward to all the TPK's there, because it is already brutal enough, add these choices...:s My question is what should I/the rest of the players do in this situation. Sadly he is the only steady game in my area, and I would LOVE to find another game to play in, but unfortuneatly I can't. This is the exact same reason we ended our last campaign he DMed. There is no reason to first consult the other players to find out if they are also not enjoying the game. YOU are not enjoying the game. The first, best way to handle it is to talk to the DM and let him know that. As was suggested, just because you're not having fun doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone. TELL them. Now this thing about half-starting wealth and only PHB equipment is undoubtedly the thing that is killing your PC's. You need to explain to your DM (because apparantly he doesn't understand this) that HALF starting wealth is bad enough but NO magic items is BRUTALLY severe restriction. The PC's are HORRIBLY under-powered for their level - and D&D rules are designed around an EXPECTATION that characters of a given level will have both a minimal amount of equipment value AND that this equipment will include magical items. I think with your DM's restrictions your PC's might even only be of a power level HALF of what their character level is. In other words, as underequipped as your party is, they may only equivalent to a party of THIRD level characters, not 6th. Find out from the DM why he insists on such extreme equipment restriction. Convince him that he is not running a game that is actually consistent with such underequipped characters and that YOUR preferred solution is to simply REMOVE those unnecessary restrictions. Whatever experiment your DM was trying to play out has FAILED. Tell him you want a NORMAL game now, if he would be so kind as to acknowledge that your desires as players is NOT trivial.
AlanBruce 09-14-07, 12:16 PM	I don't own RHoD, but I do own several other adventures and they all stipulate in the very first page what books are allowed for the specific module. It is your DM's job to announce said books prior to character creation (the ones designed for players, at least). Within those allowed books, players should be able to create solid, balanced characters that will have fun and (hopefully) survive to see the end of the campaign. Regarding wealth reduction for new characters... that is idiotic. If the PCs get TPKed and all begin at level 6, open page 135 on the DMG, consult the wealth/level, and let them spend at their own leisure. It's their right as players. Now, if you're creating a homebrew, sit down with all the books you and your players have and with careful thought add or subtract books as needed BEFORE the game begins, announcing clearly your decision to the players once your final countdown is set. It's not so hard of a guideline. It just takes common sense and preparation.
Darryl_Licke 09-14-07, 12:45 PM	I'll tell you what my DM told my group recently: "You guys really need to learn to run" This was said after our party of 6 fought 70+ orcs 3x in a row narrowly escaping death the 2nd two times. (the first we had a dope "300" attack scheme going so the numbers were not that bad). In our final fight what do we have: an army of orcs (hundreds) attacking a palasaide of the usual 6 plus 3 higher level characters. Before the battle even began an NPC pointed out how a tunnel had been created for the sole purpose of an escape route. I think we are fighting the BBEG in this "final" phase but our sorcerer who is currently out of spells is constantly telling us to "we need to retreat....I'm the most powerful among us...I have NO spells." typical sorcerer.
Vacerious 09-14-07, 02:40 PM	Indeed, starting with half gold sucks, especially if you can only buy equipment from the PHB. I once had a DM that had a similar problem (though not quite to the extent of your DM.) My Solution: Make more "equipment free" characters. The druid suggestion brought up on these boards is obviously a good solution. Another thing I might suggest is a Transmutation-focused sorcerer/wizard. I remember making a Master Transmorgrafist (sp?) that had a Remorhaz as a favored form. That's a creature with a burrow speed and the swallow whole ability. Did I mention that this campaign took place almost completely in the Underdark? (Guerilla tactics, ftw!)
Phrennzy 09-14-07, 03:29 PM	*dragon swoops down* ROGUE: Anyone got a magic sword? CLERIC: Time of death: 12:00... lol
Kratch 09-14-07, 03:52 PM	I can understand restricting the starting gear of new characters. Party wealth of leveled adventurers typically includes items less then optimal for their character. A new starting character who gets to pick whatever gear best suits them comes in with an advantage in power over one who leveled to that point. However, the solution your DM is using is incredably harsh. half wealth would be ok on it's own, provided you were prepared to fill in the gap with found treasure reasonably quickly. I tend to role random treasure for half the players starting wealth, letting them keep (to pass on or trade to their new groupmates for more appropriate gear) or sell it (at typical market exchange for the region), as they see fit.
Ecalsneerg 09-14-07, 04:04 PM	I think we are fighting the BBEG in this "final" phase but our sorcerer who is currently out of spells is constantly telling us to "we need to retreat....I'm the most powerful among us...I have NO spells." typical sorcerer. He does have some logic. You basically now have a 5-man party who need to keep 6 bodies alive.
Thubby 09-14-07, 07:10 PM	He does have some logic. You basically now have a 5-man party who need to keep 6 bodies alive. well yes, they should retreat. but not because hes the most powerful. even if he is the best equipped to handle a large number of weak opponents, that was arrogant on his part.
Kratch 09-14-07, 09:16 PM	well yes, they should retreat. but not because hes the most powerful. even if he is the best equipped to handle a large number of weak opponents, that was arrogant on his part. I'm curious. Had he not had that attitude, could he have conserved a few spells in earlier battles to manage some aid in that final one? Or did he see himself as being the most powerful, therefor he had to singlehandedly sway each battle, only to blow his load when some basic tactics/strategy and blood, sweet and tears would have sufficed and leave himself nothing come the final fight?
Ecalsneerg 09-15-07, 07:21 AM	well yes, they should retreat. but not because hes the most powerful. even if he is the best equipped to handle a large number of weak opponents, that was arrogant on his part. I'm not disputing the arrogance. "I'm the most powerful" does scream EGO EGO EGO. Or he could be RPing ego.
Asmodeur 09-15-07, 09:27 AM	Regarding wealth reduction for new characters... that is idiotic. If the PCs get TPKed and all begin at level 6, open page 135 on the DMG, consult the wealth/level, and let them spend at their own leisure. It's their right as players. No it's not. The wealth guidelines are just that, and they are located in the DMG for a reason. To the OP. There is nothing wrong with starting you guys off at 6th level with no magical items, although it does seem a bit lowmagic. I do however think that the DM should have talked it over with the players, before doing such a thing. Anyway, as other have said, if you arent having fun, get the other players together and talk to the DM (you should talk to him as a group, so that he knows its not one player who isnt having fun). Ultimately, if he refuses to change anything, vote with your feet.