Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cobra_Commander 03-07-08, 02:23 AM	I'm trying to make a goblin skeleton level 2 cleric. But...I'm just finding some things confusing. According to my backstory (And with DMs permission) my character had the "Awaken Undead" spell cast on him, to make him sentient. But it's tweaked a little so I can actually play a cleric (Can have a Wis higher then 10, actually have a Cha modifier things like that.) There's just a few things that confuse me about playing this. Do I get d12s instead of d8s for hp cause I'm undead? Do I get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, because it says the base creature loses it's feat, and gains Improved Initiative instead. Would I even start as a level two cleric, or would I be...I don't know, skeleton1/cleric1? Could someone run down exactly how to combine this together? If anybody needs to know, my stats are 18,17,16,12,12,10. Currently I have 18 into dex, giving me 22 (+2 for being goblin, +2 for being a skeleton), 17 into wis, 14 str (-2 for being goblin), 12 in int, 10 in cha, and the 10 goes in the con, which gets erased. Thanks for the helpin advance. COOOOOBBBBRRRRAAAAA!!!!!
zeratulcraft 03-07-08, 02:37 AM	Monsters with 1hd lose their original HD when they gain class levels. So you'd be 2 Cleric, you'd also gain Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. D12 will be your HD, because the Undead type generally says that it changes all current and future HD into d12's.
Cobra_Commander 03-07-08, 02:41 AM	Nice, thanks. Would I still get a feat for being first level? Or would that be the Improved Initiative?
zeratulcraft 03-07-08, 02:53 AM	Imp Init is a bonus feat, think of it like a preselected human bonus feat. So yeah you will get your standard first level feat.
Cobra_Commander 03-07-08, 03:03 AM	Now...Should any of this be some cause for some kind of Level Adjustment? Cause, when I look at the character, he just seems...A bit too powerful?
runestar 03-07-08, 03:11 AM	because the Undead type generally says that it changes all current and future HD into d12's. Actually, it applies only to racial HD. With the exception of a few templates such as the vampire and lich templates, no other undead source explicitly states that it modifies all current and future HD to d12s. For example, look to the mummy lord npc in the MM, where it still uses d8s for its cleric lvs, rather than d12s, despite being undead. This means that being undead does not automatically upgrade your class HD to d12s unless it says so. Not overpowering to rule otherwise, though I thought I would point it out.:)
kelvinaw273 03-07-08, 09:06 AM	Now...Should any of this be some cause for some kind of Level Adjustment? Cause, when I look at the character, he just seems...A bit too powerful? Yes, you do indeed and it's pretty serious too: Unbalanced scores (as you have lost the limits on these): +1 LA Damage Resistance: +1 LA Undead Traits (immune to aging, critical hits, level drain, does not need to eat or breath etc): +1 LA Cannot heal: -1 LA (you'll have to cast Inflict spells on yourself to heal) Personally I would rule you should take D8 hit dice as you have gone for character levels, otherwise d12 hit dice is worth another +1 LA to you. That gives us a +2-3 Level Adjustment - not fun for a cleric! You could reduce this by: 1) Scrapping the attribute bonuses 2) Lose the d12 hit dice and take standard for characters That leaves you with +1 LA - not insurmountable.
Orchomenos 03-07-08, 09:26 AM	Alternatively... what about playing a strait goblin cleric, and "pretending" it is an awaken skeleton? That'll be far less complicated...
aotrscommander 03-07-08, 09:46 AM	Actually, it applies only to racial HD. With the exception of a few templates such as the vampire and lich templates, no other undead source explicitly states that it modifies all current and future HD to d12s. For example, look to the mummy lord npc in the MM, where it still uses d8s for its cleric lvs, rather than d12s, despite being undead. This means that being undead does not automatically upgrade your class HD to d12s unless it says so. Not overpowering to rule otherwise, though I thought I would point it out.:) That's odd, because the Mummy Lord is the only Undead creature I can think of that doesn't have all D12s for HD. Certainly, the common factor with all templated Undead is the fact they have D12 HD. (Of course, remember that D12 HD is actually very bad with no Con bonus and death at 0 hits; it's not better than D8 HD with a +2 Con bonus). Libris Mortis even makes a specific point of mentioning D12 HD; although it also deosn't say anywhere about HD other then Undead levels (as if it's assumed you know all your HD will be D12). All the Undead-specific PrC in Lib Mort are also all D12 HD... I did find one NPC in the back that had D4 HD, though, based on a character advancement of "By character class." *Shrug* Guess you can have it either way then...myself I think D12 seems to make more sense. Final note: Lib Mort qualifies a 1HD skeleton as a 1st level cohort, and Necropolian from the same book is LA +0 (it gets turn resistance and small save bonus verses control and a somewhat unessecary note that it heals 'natually' (unessecary because only mindless Undead don't heal). So extrapolating that Undead traits do not themselves count as an LA1, you're only concerned then, about the +2 Dex, Improved Initiative, natural weapon and armour, immunity to cold and DR. I'd say based on that an awakened skeleton really only qualifies as a +1 LA maybe +2 LA (really, it depends on what you weight the DR and natural armour and cold immunity at; the rest are easily within 1 LA). I'd be inclined to say +1 myself, because of the larger disadvantages of the low hit points and no safety margin. 1The immunities are countered by new vulnerabilites (there's crap loads of spells that specifically effect Undead), plus Turn Undead. And the really, really not inconsiderable problem of death at 0 and lack of easy raising (if you don't have access to Revive Undead, you're pretty shafted until Wish of maybe Limited Wish come along).
Chaosepoch 03-07-08, 09:57 AM	I'm trying to make a goblin skeleton level 2 cleric. But...I'm just finding some things confusing. According to my backstory (And with DMs permission) my character had the "Awaken Undead" spell cast on him, to make him sentient. But it's tweaked a little so I can actually play a cleric (Can have a Wis higher then 10, actually have a Cha modifier things like that.) There's just a few things that confuse me about playing this. Do I get d12s instead of d8s for hp cause I'm undead? Do I get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, because it says the base creature loses it's feat, and gains Improved Initiative instead. Would I even start as a level two cleric, or would I be...I don't know, skeleton1/cleric1? Could someone run down exactly how to combine this together? If anybody needs to know, my stats are 18,17,16,12,12,10. Currently I have 18 into dex, giving me 22 (+2 for being goblin, +2 for being a skeleton), 17 into wis, 14 str (-2 for being goblin), 12 in int, 10 in cha, and the 10 goes in the con, which gets erased. Thanks for the helpin advance. COOOOOBBBBRRRRAAAAA!!!!! You're probably better using the bone creature in the Book of Vile Darkness. It's a sentient skeleton already and pretty fair though may take a LA +1
aotrscommander 03-07-08, 10:10 AM	You're probably better using the bone creature in the Book of Vile Darkness. It's a sentient skeleton already and pretty fair though may take a LA +1 Bone creatures are a bit dubious; better stats (+4 Dex not +2) and a better bonus feat (Weapon Finesse instead of Improved Initiative) and assuming you replace the 3.0 half damage with 3.5 DR 5/Bludgeoning you're back to square one. There's no LA (or oddly CR) adjustment mentioned; extrapolating from the creature, though it's +1 CR. That could equate to anything from a +1LA to +2, if other CR-to-LA are looked at. (I'd say more like a solid +2 (something like +2.2 as opposed to a skeleton's what, +1.5ish).
Chaosepoch 03-07-08, 05:24 PM	Bone creatures are a bit dubious; better stats (+4 Dex not +2) and a better bonus feat (Weapon Finesse instead of Improved Initiative) and assuming you replace the 3.0 half damage with 3.5 DR 5/Bludgeoning you're back to square one. There's no LA (or oddly CR) adjustment mentioned; extrapolating from the creature, though it's +1 CR. That could equate to anything from a +1LA to +2, if other CR-to-LA are looked at. (I'd say more like a solid +2 (something like +2.2 as opposed to a skeleton's what, +1.5ish). I'd argue for a LA+1 personally You gain the undead traits, cold immun and DR5/bludgeoning but this is at the cost of turning/rebuking, disintrigration and the like. The claw attacks are worthless The +2 AC is nice The +4 ability is dandy, but it comes with losing your CON and the infamous "undead don't go below 0HP" - shaving off 9HP is a big deal at lower levels The D12 Hit Dice is nice. Plus the hardcore aspect of being un-ressurectable AS an undead... Bonus feat is a little strange but still, hardly massively overpowered
aotrscommander 03-07-08, 06:52 PM	I'd argue for a LA+1 personally You gain the undead traits, cold immun and DR5/bludgeoning but this is at the cost of turning/rebuking, disintrigration and the like. The claw attacks are worthless The +2 AC is nice The +4 ability is dandy, but it comes with losing your CON and the infamous "undead don't go below 0HP" - shaving off 9HP is a big deal at lower levels The D12 Hit Dice is nice. Plus the hardcore aspect of being un-ressurectable AS an undead... Bonus feat is a little strange but still, hardly massively overpowered Fair enough. It's not that much different from the basic skeleton. Like I say, what it really comes down to is how much emphasis a DM is going to put on the DR. After all, at level 2 (or ECL 2) you are So. Screwed. if you run into a cleric BBEG of level 2-4...you're either dust or hapily battering the rest of the party...
Cobra_Commander 03-07-08, 09:05 PM	Luckily though, I decided it was a good idea to invest a feat in Improved Turn Resistance. So at least it'll be mildly harder to turn me to dust. All in all, I'm glad I was doing everthing more or less correctly. We're playing on Saturday. So, I'll tell you all how it went.
Callista 03-07-08, 10:59 PM	Cool! You're going to get a Hat of Disguise or something, right? Because otherwise you'll get pitchfork-and-torched for sure.
Cobra_Commander 03-07-08, 11:08 PM	Well, probably in the future, but for now, I took the trickary domain, so I'm going to be using disguise self, and the skill until then. The only thing I'm carrying around is a backpack with an entertainers outfit inside. So when I need to go into town, I'll dress up, and make myself look like a halfling. I was also considering taking a Rogue for first level, for all the skill points, so I can max out disguise, and bluff for when something goes wrong. It should be fun.
Elf_Ranger_0127 03-09-08, 10:44 AM	You're probably better using the bone creature in the Book of Vile Darkness. It's a sentient skeleton already and pretty fair though may take a LA +1 Thats what i did, and its a better deal in the long run.
Wheldrake 03-09-08, 02:00 PM	Wouldn't it be more appropriate to make this character a "necropolitain" from libris mortis? Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Cobra_Commander 03-09-08, 08:11 PM	No, not really Weldrake. I can't become a Necropolitain, because the process of becoming one would kill me, since I'm only level 2. Plus it wouldn't go well with my backstory. (As plain as it is) I was raised by a necromancer, who then used a more powerful "Awaken Undead" spell on me, to use me for menial tasks that mindless undead would be too clumsy to preform. One day he told me to wait in a room for some experiments, when there was some kind of earthquake, or landslide, and the door became blocked, and presumably the necromancer was killed. And there I sat for 90 years. Since my last orders were to wait in the room, I didn't try to get out. Maybe eventually at a higher level, the DM would permit me to take the Evolved Undead template instead of a level? COOOOBBBBRRRRAAAA!!!!
Cobra_Commander 03-12-08, 12:46 AM	Another question. A friend has pointed out, since I get Cold Immunity, he says that I would also suffer from Fire Vulnerability as well. Since I can't access my books at the moment, can anybody prove/disprove this statement? Thanks in advance. COOOOBBBBBRRRRAAAA!!!!!
dawnbringer 03-12-08, 08:35 AM	Yes, you do indeed and it's pretty serious too: Unbalanced scores (as you have lost the limits on these): +1 LA Damage Resistance: +1 LA Undead Traits (immune to aging, critical hits, level drain, does not need to eat or breath etc): +1 LA Cannot heal: -1 LA (you'll have to cast Inflict spells on yourself to heal) Personally I would rule you should take D8 hit dice as you have gone for character levels, otherwise d12 hit dice is worth another +1 LA to you. That gives us a +2-3 Level Adjustment - not fun for a cleric! You could reduce this by: 1) Scrapping the attribute bonuses 2) Lose the d12 hit dice and take standard for characters That leaves you with +1 LA - not insurmountable. You are SO wrong. + LA for being a skeleton my ass. Next you'll say being a warforged deserves LA....
nonsens 03-12-08, 09:50 AM	Another question. A friend has pointed out, since I get Cold Immunity, he says that I would also suffer from Fire Vulnerability as well. Since I can't access my books at the moment, can anybody prove/disprove this statement? Thanks in advance. COOOOBBBBBRRRRAAAA!!!!! Your friend is wrong. In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) there's nothing about a skeleton being vulnerable to fire You are SO wrong. + LA for being a skeleton my ass. Next you'll say being a warforged deserves LA.... +1 LA for being a skeleton is right Don't forget that you are invulnerable to sneak-attack and stuff for being a skeleton/undead
dawnbringer 03-12-08, 10:00 AM	You also have 25% chance to avoid those with a warforged aswell. And you can change that to 100% chance - immunity - very easily. Yet the warforged hasn't got +LA. A necropolitan is also undead, and yet has no +LA.
Cifer 03-12-08, 11:47 AM	Another question. A friend has pointed out, since I get Cold Immunity, he says that I would also suffer from Fire Vulnerability as well. Since I can't access my books at the moment, can anybody prove/disprove this statement? The friend is wrong. Creatures only get a matching vulnerability if their immunity stems from being a certain subtype. This means that [fire] creatures like, well, fire elementals get a cold vulnerability, but on the other hand side, look at devils: They're immune against fire and they get a resistance to cold for ten points to top it off. Back to topic: I'd consider awakened skeleton to be LA +1 at most. As has been said, you've got serious problems with turning (you're one HD short of your level...) and several of your advantages are not all that great. For example, your D12 HD are pretty much the same as a normal cleric's D8 with a 14+ CON, except that the con modifier can be enhanced while the D12 can't. However, I chime in with Wheldrake: Necropolitan is a wonderful template that can be strapped onto any normal race without trouble and its fluff (how you became one) is very malleable.
Chaosepoch 03-12-08, 05:22 PM	You also have 25% chance to avoid those with a warforged aswell. And you can change that to 100% chance - immunity - very easily. Yet the warforged hasn't got +LA. A necropolitan is also undead, and yet has no +LA. Read Savage Species, it's useful for this kind of thing. Also, re-look at the cited creature; Hit Dice buffed out to the max REGARDLESS of class AC buffed Natural weapons Free feat Darkvision, undead traits, half damage from various types (not the DR5 as per MM) Abilites +4 for the cost of losing your CON Retaining any fly speed What will this do to your low-HP wizard? Bearing in mind that this entry does not affect the normal bonuses from class, it stacks on top of an existing creature. Though re-reading it does shed a little insight. The cited example (bugbear, lv5 rogue) would be a +1 LA before the template, and they list it as a CR7. I know CR does not equate to LA, but still that's a kicked up CR. Edit: also, necropoliton involves losing a level, so VERY close to LA+1 (the description even mentions the LA ramification)
Mock26 03-12-08, 05:30 PM	This reminds me of a line from an old song, "Saturday night and I ain't got nobody!"
Cobra_Commander 03-13-08, 12:11 AM	My friend isn't convinced, and now the DM is starting to ask questions and just taking it as fact. Can someone provide me with solid evidence that proves/disproves skeletons do not have fire vulnerability? COOOBBBBRRRRAAAA Edit: Can Cold Immunity, which also provides the vulnerabilty to fire be different from Immunity to Cold? This was a thought I just had, that maybe there's two different forms of it.
Ashen_Child 03-13-08, 03:50 AM	It's the cold subtype that gives weakness to fire. The skeleton doesn't have cold subtype, just immunity to cold, which is completely different Edit: Just like Cife already said
Cifer 03-13-08, 12:40 PM	My friend isn't convinced, and now the DM is starting to ask questions and just taking it as fact. Can someone provide me with solid evidence that proves/disproves skeletons do not have fire vulnerability? Ask them for the reason why devils have both Immunity to Fire and Resistance to Cold. Oh, and ask them why skeletons should be easier to burn than other things...
Chaosepoch 03-13-08, 02:42 PM	My friend isn't convinced, and now the DM is starting to ask questions and just taking it as fact. Can someone provide me with solid evidence that proves/disproves skeletons do not have fire vulnerability? COOOBBBBRRRRAAAA Edit: Can Cold Immunity, which also provides the vulnerabilty to fire be different from Immunity to Cold? This was a thought I just had, that maybe there's two different forms of it. While the MM doesn't explain the immunity well (hence the confusion), the general immunities do explain that the slashing/piercing reduction is due to the lack of internal organs - assume the same logic applies to freezing. Without blood and guts, what is to freeze that causes damage? Freezing a human's blood is devestating but freezing a hard calcium substance will do little but erode it slightly. Ultimately, the skeleton doesn't actually RELY on the cold, so fire is no more effective on it that anything else.
Valgoth 03-13-08, 02:49 PM	Or... ask them why the hell a skeleton would have vulnerability to fire to begin with? Bone doesn't burn. It'd be easier to argue having fire immunity (which skeletons in other sources actually DO have.) That is, if you have a DM that isn't hardcore RAW, and looks at the game from its logical points of view.
Cobra_Commander 03-13-08, 04:33 PM	That's exactly what I was saying as the counter, but since there was no other "Cold Immunity" entry, they just assumed if it has cold immunity, then it also has fire vulnerability. But thankfully, the DM used the...Chat I suppose, and asked wizards, and they said because of contratiction (The DMG says the same thing), between the MM, and DMG, the MM trumps the DMG, so the skeleton doesn't get it. But I mean that still doesn't make sense. They said that the fire would...Degrade the bone tissue or something, so it would burn, but that doesn't explain why it would burn MORE, then a zombie, which consists of rotting flesh, yet they don't suffer from fire vulnerability, but for some reason Skeletons would. Thanks COOOOBBBBRRRRAAAA!!!!!
Decinious 03-14-08, 01:57 AM	Every undead template I can find that allows class levels changes them to d12s. At most skeleton should be +1 template, if your dm tries to pin a +2 on it dig out the libris and take the grave touched ghoul...
Necroramo 03-15-08, 12:28 AM	You get an elemental immunity, a (fairly good) bonus feat, a Dexterity bonus, DR 5/bludgeoning, and all of the Undead traits. I'm really on the fence on this one. If that's all you're getting, then it should be +1, although it's a bit of a stretch (it's strong for + 1, but LA + 2 templates like Phrenic beat the tar out of this). If you end up going bone creature, however, the natural armor and the higher Dex bonus definitely push it into the +2 world. Which you can't even do as a second level character :( EDIT: Whoops, forgot Mineral Warrior existed. Make that +1.
Cifer 03-15-08, 02:00 AM	@Necroramo For a strong +1 template, search for the Mineralic Warrior. It's in the online available excerpts of the Underdark book on the Wizards page. +3 NA, +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 on all mental abilities, burrowing speed, Darkvision and a DR 8/Adamantine...
Mock26 03-15-08, 01:56 PM	Make no bones about it, this could be a fun character to play!
Chaosepoch 03-18-08, 04:34 PM	Make no bones about it, this could be a fun character to play! That was TERRIBLE! Seriously though Cobra, head to the character development forums and get yourself a top-notch back story written up. You can usually argue a (good) DM out of his rules with good roleplay. After all, what's a bump down of +1 LA between a good character and a promising game?