Post/Author/DateTime	Post
metamind 04-26-06, 04:57 PM	In my DM's current campaign, we have joined an elven/human army to help fight off raiding parties of bugbears, goblins (mostly), orcs, hobgoblins, and ogres (basicly all the races my DM hates). When the group was fighting a goblin war party, I stopped to ask them why they were atacking the elves. It turned out that they were bieng forced to fight by a great wyrm red dragon. After learning this, I refused to fight the enemy (because they were basicly innocent, and being forced to fight). My DM was insulted by my decision, and litterally said "so what, there just goblins". Also, for some flavor, I decided to make my character "Spiritually lost", and looking for a god to follow. I am trying to find a way to convince my DM to let me try and end the war without ending more lives. So far, he despises my idea of not slaughtering a race that he does not like, and not having a diety from the start. How can I convince him to see it my way?
Slider33 04-26-06, 05:15 PM	Sounds like a railroading DM to me. Resolving the problem via peaceful means is a perfectly fine way to go, or however you were choosing to go about it (i.e. not simply killing the opposition). You'll definitely have to talk to your DM out of game, preferably before the next game. Use these points, but I recommend putting it delicately: A DM's job is NOT to control what the player does, he's there to *facilitate* the game. You shouldn't be forced to doing something against what your character believes in and how you want to play it (as long as it's not disruptive to everyone else's fun). This means a DM shouldn't railroad, even if it means abandoning the set-path he anticipated. This sucks for the DM, yes. But on the other hand a DM should learn not to plan too far ahead in advance, because the players are always bound to do something unexpected. Ask him what kind of campaign he's running: If it's purely hack and slash, consider biting-the-bullet and just going along with combat oriented adventure. I'm assuming the other players (if any) are all on the same wavelength as you. Or if it is hack and slash ask him if he can adjust the adventure to suit your playstyle if it will work with the other people. Tell him that it takes the fun out of playing a character if the DM places such restrictions on your PC. It defeats the purpose of the game imo, DnD isn't strictly strategy and combat. Also keep in mind he probably worked hard on the campaign, you may want to compromise a slight bit out of courtesy. Try to think of a creative way to do both where you can still stay true to your character but maybe peace isn't ever going to happen. If the enemies are motivated by fear of a great red dragon it might take a lot of pursuasion and trial-and-error to get them to not kill you on sight. There may be some bloodshed on the path to a peaceful means, so he does have a right to fight with his monsters. He may hate those races, but he can still use monster-stereotypes if he so chooses. That's all i can think of, off the top of my head I may come up with some more thoughts later.
metamind 04-26-06, 05:29 PM	First of all, thanks for helping. You'll definitely have to talk to your DM out of game, preferably before the next game. No problem there, I see him almost everyday. Although, no matter what I say to him, he remains stubborn A DM's job is NOT to control what the player does, he's there to *facilitate* the game. You shouldn't be forced to doing something against what your character believes in and how you want to play it (as long as it's not disruptive to everyone else's fun). This means a DM shouldn't railroad, even if it means abandoning the set-path he anticipated. This sucks for the DM, yes. But on the other hand a DM should learn not to plan too far ahead in advance, because the players are always bound to do something unexpected. He usually does not use railroads, but he did work hard on the adventure. The biggest problem he has with my goal, is that he fears I will end up joining the enemy, and ruin him game (which I won't). He does not understand that by characters backstory (as well as the goblin peace thing), he can create an excelent plot hook. I'm assuming the other players (if any) are all on the same wavelength as you. They are all CN, they really don't care.
Slider33 04-26-06, 05:46 PM	Hmmm... I guess if you've already tried to reason with him and he still won't budge, I'm not sure how else to get through to him. It would be a good idea to express to him that you do not intend to ruin his game, or even ruin all the hard work he put in. Another problem is, he could choose to play the enemy creatures as mindless killing machines that refuse to work with the party or negotiate in any way. There are lots of ways the DM can facilitate this disposition. I am not sure I want to give too much away, but consider this: A great red wyrm is extremely powerful, can employ scrying and powerful magic on his armies. He can have powerful wizard generals, place curses or even so much as geas / quests on many of his minions. It would be cheesy for him to block every attempt you make at finding a different path, but he could do it legitimately and have good in-game reasons for it. They may be forced into attacking their enemies, but those races are typically evil aligned and would probably enjoy what they are doing. He should allow you to try, but he is also entitled to make it very difficult (I would think it would be hard to switch sides, etc without causing big problems). You might not necessarily succeed at doing so, it would be a dangerous thing to do. But the bottom line is, he shouldn't discourage you from trying it, there's never a guarantee of success. He should at least say, "I'm okay with what you want to do, I encourage you to try it out and see what happens." I'm not sure how you should go about telling him, but you are correct: he really could take advantage of this and throw in dozens of neat side quests or plot hooks. If you can encourage him to deviate a bit and come up with some interesting stuff maybe he'll come around. Then again, maybe he lacks the think-on-the-fly abilities and is afraid to deviate too much.
Koji 04-26-06, 05:54 PM	The line "They're just goblins" means it's time to find a new DM.
pres_man 04-26-06, 05:55 PM	It could be that in the world he is running, goblins, orcs, and other such "monstrous" races, are evil by nature. Think along the lines of LoTR. In this setting, "peaceful coexistance" is a simple minded idea and will only lead to a bunch of innocent "people" (defined as not a member of the monstrous races) getting killed. Basically imagine if at the battle of Helm's Deep, they opened the gate and said, "We don't want to fight, we understand Saruman is making you do this. Let's all just get along." Well, the battle certainly would have been over quick, with all of the "people" being put to the sword, if they were lucky. Basically just because some bigger evil is pushing around some smaller evils, that doesn't necessarily make the smaller evils, not evil. Find out what type of setting your DM is running, if you don't want to play in that type of setting, quit. If you are willing to play in it, stop trying to force the DM to change the setting to your liking. Now there is nothing wrong with playing a game where goblinoids, orcs, and ogres, could be reasoned with, and peaceful coexistance is possible, but it just doesn't seem like that is the game he is running. Suck it up, and deal, or leave.
malignor 04-26-06, 05:56 PM	- How did you figure out they were being forced to fight, and by whom? Better not be a metagame thing. - Is there a way you can capture enemies and have them join you in an uprising against their draconic master? You'd likely start small and get larger and larger with each wave until you have a decent army that can capture other armies. Be sure to take the Leadership feat at the nearest opportunity to get some faithful followers as justified by game mechanics. Talk to your DM about this idea. He might like this, as it's a sort of compromise between his idea and yours. - build a society of orcs/goblinoids and have them make peaceful (though crude and brutish, as goblinoids often are) interaction wit the new elven neighbours. Maybe this can turn into an alliance of sorts. ===== What I envision is this: Your party captures some bugbears & goblins, and interrogates them. You discover they are being forced to battle the elves, on pain of torturous death. They figure the dragon is big and scary and can find them anywhere they run, where the elves may be defeatable... so they took their chances against the elves. You convince them that they'll definitely die if they don't submit to your party. If they work with you, they'll be treated well, paid well and if possible (and they want you to) you'll see about rescuing their immediate family from the dragon's clutches. This leads to some Recon into dragon-suppressed territory, rescue operations and some high stakes adventuring. These missions will provide to give your group a rep among the enemy (which can lead to more in your ranks) as well and provide a framework to build the goblin/orc society or base of ops in your campaign against the dragon. By the end of the campaign, you'd be leading a elf+orc+goblin army against other goblins in a glorious uprising against the Red Dragon.
Lincoln Hills 04-26-06, 06:28 PM	...It turned out that they were being forced to fight by a great wyrm red dragon. After learning this, I refused to fight the enemy (because they were basically innocent, and being forced to fight). My DM was insulted by my decision...I am trying to find a way to convince my DM to let me try and end the war without ending more lives. You don't have to agree with your DM: you just have to decide how your character will react to the world. (I'll tell you this much: total non-violence on your part will not be reciprocated!) Your character is well within his rights (assuming he's Good) to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Since I surmise that you are a cleric (or similar class), you might want to invest heavily in enchantment-type spells. Most of the best charm and fear effects are arcane, but exploit the ones you do have access to. (3.0 had a Subdual Substitution metamagic feat - I think it made it into Complete Arcane? - that would be worth a look if you think it worthwhile.) Warrior-types are pretty much limited to "doing non-lethal damage" at -4. Efforts to "raise a revolution" against the dragon, or to convert these monsters' alignments, will probably be shot in the foot by the DM. There are some approaches you can still take, however. Offer your enemies terms of surrender: they must return to their home lairs and no longer fight for either side. (Such terms could be enforced by mark of justice or possibly geas/quest on the tribe's war-leaders.) The alternative is to make the humanoids fear your forces too much to dare attack. (Taking on the illusionary forms of giants, demons, etc. is good for this - consult the party wizard.) However, the "peace through fear" approach will probably require at least a few genuine atrocities to be committed, so it might not be for you.
metamind 04-26-06, 07:03 PM	- How did you figure out they were being forced to fight, and by whom? Better not be a metagame thing. - Is there a way you can capture enemies and have them join you in an uprising against their draconic master? You'd likely start small and get larger and larger with each wave until you have a decent army that can capture other armies. Be sure to take the Leadership feat at the nearest opportunity to get some faithful followers as justified by game mechanics. Talk to your DM about this idea. He might like this, as it's a sort of compromise between his idea and yours. - build a society of orcs/goblinoids and have them make peaceful (though crude and brutish, as goblinoids often are) interaction wit the new elven neighbours. Maybe this can turn into an alliance of sorts. No, I hate metagamers. As I said, when I asked the goblins, they told me. However I like your idea about starting the elf and orc allegience.
starfire311 04-26-06, 07:35 PM	Here is the deal.... The golbins say they are being forced to attack the elves... Just because you refuse to fight the goblins doesnt mean they are going to stop fighting you, or stop working for the dragon.
metamind 04-26-06, 08:52 PM	Here is the deal.... The golbins say they are being forced to attack the elves... Just because you refuse to fight the goblins doesnt mean they are going to stop fighting you, or stop working for the dragon. Thats true, but I have ways of getting around the goblins to the dragon, and then smite it in an epic battle. :D After killing the dragon (which, trust me, I shall have no problems with), I shall take advantage of my maxed-out Bluff and Diplomacy skills to make them get along. Opinions?
aotrscommander 04-26-06, 09:08 PM	Just be aware that if your DM is playing goblins-are-evil, once you've negociated a 'peace', they may well wait until you're backs turned, build a new army and start it all over again! I would be very, very sure that are dealing with goblinoids that are not inherently evil before you attempt to negociate a peace treaty. If they are, you've got a problem that no amount of diplomacy is going to solve.
danielinthewolvesden 04-27-06, 12:22 AM	No, I hate metagamers. As I said, when I asked the goblins, they told me. However I like your idea about starting the elf and orc allegience. Umm, goblins can & do lie. Besides, goblins would naturally attack elves. Now, sure, they might be 'forced' to do so against odds they don't care for, but really, they normally would. Now sure, not every goblin must be evil- but it sounds like they are in your DM's world, which is perfectly within the RAW. His line "so what, they're just goblins" can mean that his goblins are solidly Evil and thus will do Evil deeds even if not being coerced. Let me try and give a real world example. Let us say you had Jeffrey Dahlmer, likely as not one of the most Evil men to walk the earth. And during his serial murdering career, one time some other evil guy FORCED Dahlmer into killing one other person. That doesn't stop Dahlmer from being an evil sociopathic murderer. Your DM is making a reasonable interpretation of the rules- that goblinkind is Evil. However, it sounds like you are a poor match for your DM and your fellow players- they want to hack & slash, you want to roleplay. Nothing wrong with either- but the twain don't get along all that well.
kelvinaw273 04-27-06, 07:04 AM	In my DM's current campaign, we have joined an elven/human army to help fight off raiding parties of bugbears, goblins (mostly), orcs, hobgoblins, and ogres (basicly all the races my DM hates). When the group was fighting a goblin war party, I stopped to ask them why they were atacking the elves. It turned out that they were bieng forced to fight by a great wyrm red dragon. After learning this, I refused to fight the enemy (because they were basicly innocent, and being forced to fight). My DM was insulted by my decision, and litterally said "so what, there just goblins". Also, for some flavor, I decided to make my character "Spiritually lost", and looking for a god to follow. I am trying to find a way to convince my DM to let me try and end the war without ending more lives. So far, he despises my idea of not slaughtering a race that he does not like, and not having a diety from the start. How can I convince him to see it my way? Stick to your guns, you are doing good RP! If he says "They are just orcs/goblins/gnolls/purple people eaters/whatever" respond with: "And doubly true if they were black/white/yellow/green/orange with purple spots, right?" Then get a good argument going over racism/specism parralels in D&D and demand equal rights for all non-human races. Yes, I know I am advocating annoying your DM, something I do not normally do, but this one is asking for it. Hopefully some of the other players will join your side of the debate, and your Dm might learn a thing or two. Oh, and start tooling up for dragon-hunting.
pres_man 04-27-06, 10:02 AM	Politcal Correctism rears its ugly head. :nonono:
Sereno 04-27-06, 10:09 AM	However, it sounds like you are a poor match for your DM and your fellow players- they want to hack & slash, you want to roleplay. Nothing wrong with either- but the twain don't get along all that well. I think danielinthewolvesden has nailed it. Apparently, the DM has gone through a lot of preparation to provide the other players with a lot of combat opportunites and he's probably planned out an entire war. He's probably got classic scenarios like "hold the fort", "assassinate the leaders", "small group tactics" and "advanced scouting" ready. What he doesn't have prepared is some pacifist PC coming along and trying to stop the war with Diplomacy. :) If the rest of the group just wants to fight monsters, you aren't going to be having much fun. If you try to thwart all of the combat with RP, they aren't going to be having much fun. You might offer to help the DM develop some scenarios that play to your PC's personality ... but I highly doubt you'll be able to get him to change his whole campaign idea to suit one player ... especially if the rest of the players are all on board.
cambric 04-27-06, 12:05 PM	Thats true, but I have ways of getting around the goblins to the dragon, and then smite it in an epic battle. :D After killing the dragon (which, trust me, I shall have no problems with), I shall take advantage of my maxed-out Bluff and Diplomacy skills to make them get along. Opinions? If your DM plays the dragon correctly, not only will you fail miserably, but those that you tried to convice to turn good, will most definitely follow the dragon. I say, "you will fail", if you go at it alone. I don't care which class you are, what abilities you have, but there is no one character, without going pun-pun, that can defeat a "Great Red Wyrm", just can't happen...if, and I stress that, the DM plays them the way they are supposed to be played as suggested in the Draconion. Not only will he know of your coming, he'll know everything about you, if need be. That being said, I agree and disagree with your DM. First: It is HIS campaign, so that gives him the right to have the creatures be the way they are. Second: I like your idea of trying to convince them to go against the dragon and as a DM, I would allow you to try. Third: To convince the creatures though, you would have to prove you're more powerful than the dragon, and with these type of creatures, that will be a mighty hard thing to 'prove', short of killing the dragon. As it was mentioned, they are evil by nature, that is the way they are. Mongoose has a great series of books that describe each creature's habitat, life style, etc...and if you want to accept those books, which I do and my players, they are great, then you will have almost zero chance of converting them to your side. Fear, first of all. The mighty red dragon will show its power if need be. The creatures, if you get them to switch, will wait and turn on you when they feel it benefits them. With the dragon, it is obvious it would eat them, if they were lucky that's all it would do, so they automatically are willing to follow it. Second, they are evil! They enjoy wars...they enjoy killing the elves...they enjoy killing period!! So what makes you think they would follow you? You are taking them away from something they truly love to do. I don't see how you're going to do this...danielinthewolvesden said it the best, it sounds like you and your DM are not a good match. I am running something of the same campaign, so I was surprised to read someone doing the same thing...well, not surprised, just realizing I'm sure this line of stuff happens frequently. Anyhow, if one of my players figures out who is doing the things they are, such as getting the orcs, goblins, kobolds, giants, hobgoblins, and a few others, to work together to wipe out the dwarves and they wanted to 'negotiate' something, I would encourage it. I think that shows initiative and 'out of the box' thinking...but if it failed, there could be some major backlash. Good luck! I am interested to hear how you are going to 'easily' defeat this dragon...by yourself no less...unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant and the whole group will do so. Cam
metamind 04-27-06, 04:47 PM	If your DM plays the dragon correctly, not only will you fail miserably, but those that you tried to convice to turn good, will most definitely follow the dragon. Good luck! I am interested to hear how you are going to 'easily' defeat this dragon...by yourself no less...unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant and the whole group will do so. Cam He does not really play anything creatively. This is his second campaign that he really put effort into, and I just can't imagine him pulling off anything unexpected. Plus I stocked my character with the best anti-dragon spells and crap, plus a considerable amount of epic spells (particularly greater ruin ). I also have some decent summoning spells to help out, just in case. I have, in respoce to the pacifist issiue, decided to kill the goblins any way, and then have it mix in with my "spiritually lost" backstory, as I look for a god to redeem my sins of killing people who I beleive are innocent (even if just at the moment).