Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magnus Magus 07-01-05, 05:20 PM	Sorry this is long. I needed to vent and collect my thoughts. Feedback is appreciated. My current group consists of 3 players and myself. Player 1 has been a friend for a long time, having met through a mutual acquaintance who invited me into their RP group. The group self-destructed and reunited many times over the years, eventually slimming down to Player 1, another guy and myself. A fourth person, Player 2, came into the picture and since we've been friends of sorts and have developed an honest mutual respect of each other. That group self-destructed in a huge and ugly way and all of us went our separate ways. Player 1 and I lamented the breakup of the group and toyed with the idea of playing again. We didn't want a one-on-one game, with just a DM and a single player. We tried to find other gamers, but we couldn't find anyone that we really liked. We knew that our former group couldn't and shouldn't be reassembled with all of the members. Eventually, we went behind the back of the "other guy" and asked Player 2 to return. Player 2 reluctantly agreed and we got together for the first time as a trio. It was great! Without the other guy there to hog everyone's attention, impose himself on every decision made by the group, argue, throw tantrums, etc.; we found that though we were hesitant to play again, each one of us had a great time. I had been selected to DM for the first time in years and I embraced the role, though I had really only wanted to be a player at the time. Without the distractions and protests of our ex-member, I decided that the imposed status quo we'd been playing under for years should change. The only major restriction I imposed on my players was alignment (no evil characters - I was trying to change bad habits, not perpetuate them). Otherwise, I let them have full reign to choose anything they wanted that would observe rules for level adjustment, etc. To my pleasant surprise, both of them chose arcane spell crafters. To accomodate the player characters and their lack of muscle, the game moved from hack and slash toward plot-driven roleplaying (with an unspoken guarantee of combat almost every session), I brought in my laptop to aid me in DMing and speed things up, made maps in Photoshop that changed combat from an abstract concept in the DMs head to something everyone could visualize/interact with, NPCs developed personalities rather than being lifeless utilities, every session began with lengthy written introduction to set the mood and every major encounter/area had a detailed description to give the players a feeling of where they were and what options they had at hand. I'll admit it was a lot of work on my end, but I was rewarded more than I possibly could imagine with Reinassance in my players' attitudes and confidence in their roleplaying skills. Though they were good friends, Player 1 used to get wasted to deal with the Ex-Player's poor behavior, eventually getting to the point where he'd fully withdraw from interaction until combat began. Even then, he'd be unfocused and stumble while trying to figure out what he wanted to do for his action, usually taking the most direct option and ignoring his character's strengths. If he wasn't wasted, there was a good chance that he would get upset about something our problem player would do and would either vocalize his frustrations explosively or (more often) let the guy be a jerk. Since reassembling, however, the player felt much more comfortable and able to breathe, making wise decisions for himself and the party rather than being a zombie-like follower. Player 2 had always been a good player, focusing more on the hack and slash and power gaming aspects of the game. His problem solving abilities and thorough knowledge of the rules were always handy. He is a great DM, having taken the reins for a while when Player 1 left the group for a while. Despite all of this, he was very reserved and most of his attempts to roleplay meaningful scenes were squashed by Ex-Player. When an arguement erupted, he became invisible and intangible. Since then, however, Player 2 has begun to really get an appetite for roleplaying. On an occasion that a session would end without actual combat, Player 2 said he was more than happy with the results of the game, though I was slightly disappointed I didn't get a chance to challenge their characters in mortal combat. All in all, each of us would look forward to sessions, play would be harmonious, and there was only one game that challenged my patience (my fault as DM)...even then, by the next session, everything was solved without fuss or muss. Admittedly, I gloss over the minor stuff, but if anything was worth mentioning, I would have. Eventually the DM mantle was passed to Player 1. We played in his game for quite some time without any incident. Style-wise, he took up where I left off, choosing the things he liked about my game and integrating it with his. In some ways, I believe he did much better managing us in character and out of character, and brought new heights to the game that I had been unable to achieve. Player 2 and I worked together efficiently, complementing each other both on the battlefield and off. Though there is always room to grow, it was a trillion times better than the group we had left. Were we just setting ourselves up for a fall? Player 2 was gearing up for a new game. I was certain that I would not be disappointed by the plot, having been in one of his games before (even the ex-player couldn't spoil the ending). So Player 1 and I gleefully rolled up new characters in anticipation of not only playing together, but seeing what Player 2 (and the players' chemistry) would bring to the game. We were not expecting Player 2's roommate to join and the changes that would occur. But having been reduced to a group of three, each of us said "OK" immediately. I'd thought about it for a while and doubts started creeping in my head whether it was a good decision or not. I expressed my hesitance to the others and was assured that if the guy didn't jive with the group, we'd ask him to leave. That was good enough for me at the time, so I pushed aside all of my misgivings and welcomed him to the group. Within three games, I had found my enthusiasm had waned, party cohesiveness disintegrating and my frustration escalating when it became apparent that our new member wanted to be both the cut-up and unspoken (outspoken) leader of our party. Player 1 sensed my tension and spoke to me about the situation. Being friends, he and I spoke openly and honestly about Player 3. Over the course of many conversations, I found that I had more than a little baggage left over from having to deal with years of the Ex-Player's poor behavior, but I was also extremely disappointed that the quality of our game had been so diluted by someone who consistantly manages to sap the focus from the plot by torrent of innane jokes and commentary. After Player 2 sensed tensions in the next two games, I e-mailed the others my concerns (only being able to see them in person when we meet once a week making it difficult to communicate) and even showed them the "difficult players" portion of the DMG II to help them understand where I am coming from and try to peacefully keep the focus in character and on the plot than tangents and non-sensical stuff. They agreed somewhat and wanted to sit down to hammer things out because they do respect me as a player and a friend. Unfortunately, the next game was cancelled and the momentum of our "group meeting" was totally lost. I think something was said to Player 3 by Player 2 because the torrent of jokes was lesser in the beginning of the evening, but as we continued on, the flow increased. As I have many times over the past few games, I repeated the mantra of "Can we stay focused, please?" to minimal effect and eventually I just gave up when it was apparent that we had made minimal progress in the game and virtually none in the last two hours. Once again, Player 1 and I spoke. I assured him that I didn't hate Player 3 (I just find him extremely annoying at times), that I was doing my best to remain patient, and that I did notice some efforts in and out of the game. I do give the new player positive reinforcement when he has good ideas or does something well. Overall, however, I am forced to accept one of the following choices: a. Embrace the jovial nonsense that I fail to be amused by and accept the fact that the game will never live up to what it used to be for me b. Extend my patience to a point until I inevitably blow up or lose my love for the game. c. Force my opinion of what the game could and should be upon the group d. Just walk away (which would mess things up for the others in some way) Since Player 2 and 3 live together, I ~do~ feel very uncomfortable with the prospect of my frustrations and desires affecting their household or their friendship. Due to the schedules of our busy lives, I rarely get a chance to see Player 1 or 2 outside of the game, so I think our friendships would wither and die without something to keep us together. I'm not looking to hurt anyone in character or out of character, nor do I think that my "fun" is more important than someone else's "fun". In fact, I ~do~ have a sense of humor and people generally regard me as a very funny person in the real world. I don't think that the game should be devoid of levity and humor at times, but I think that I've matured to a point where I believe in the concept that "less is more" - one well-placed joke is funnier than a thousand innane quips. It's not necessary for me to laugh (or smile politely) to enjoy someone's company. Yes, I believe that I am somewhat of an eletist when it comes to gaming. I've played since first edition came out and I know that finding another group is really not an option for me since the traits that Player 3 exhibits (and some that are much less tolerable...) seems to be the norm rather than the exception to the rule with the groups I have observed and participated in the past. Finding and cultivating those rare treasures like Player 1 and 2 took nearly a decade. Without their help (and a heaping spoonful of maturity), Player 3 will never get to that point. Instead, he'll be too busy amusing himself to figure out why I am upset in the first place. So if I choose option "D", I strongly believe I am done with gaming for good. That's my tale of woe. What would you do in my place? Any words of advice for someone on the edge?
MoogleEmpMog 07-01-05, 05:50 PM	I would try 'c.' If that fails, go for 'd.', start a new campaign and invite Player 1 to join you. When Player 2 gets sick of playing with just his distracting roomate, he'll likely join your game.
Kintara 07-01-05, 05:52 PM	There's little point in walking away. You might as well be open about your opinions and desires, with everyone, and say that you don't really enjoy the games anymore. I mean, the trick here, from my perspective, is the amount of hope and patience you have to see if this new player can, well, be less annoying. My experience shows that annoying people are almost always going to be annoying, unless they go through some sort of life-changing experience. Unlikely. So, my opinion is that you be honest, and say that if the new player stays, you simply aren't going to have nearly as much fun. Let your friend who's living with the new guy handle it as he sees fit. You and Player 1 are on the same page, I assume, so that does give weight to your concerns. If the new guy and the other player can't work something out, I would really recommend sticking with Player 1, and finding new gamers. Don't be afraid to ask the "uninitiated" to play with you, if you generally like them. You'd be surprised how many acquaintances you can draw on that would be willing to try something new. But don't look for "gamers" first, and people you're comfortable with second. If you end up having to look for new players, be open and comfortable about your hobby. There's nothing wrong with being a roleplayer. Just invite someone as if it were any other sort of party or event. If they don't like it, then shake hands, and off they go.
Bruunwald 07-01-05, 06:42 PM	Yes, honesty is best. And so is the realization that as Kintara said, people like this generally do not change. Even "life-changing" events do not take for long with this sort of personality. I've spoken here, many times of the fellow (who sounds like a cross between your ex-player and Player #3), who held our games hostage for years. He was a friend since childhood of one of our best players and of myself since junior high. Letting him go was tough, but in the end, I found that the others loved the game enough to stick it out with me. You might end up being surprised to find out that though they play along with this fellow in the moment, they also will feel relieved when it is back to the three of you. That was my experience. Everybody was sad that our old group ended with an explosion, but the whole rest of the group came back for the new game. And everybody thought it was better. That said, it's no use doing something when it makes you unhappy, and it's no use keeping it inside. A mature conversation about it, whatever your fears, is going to be best, even if the outcome is not at first a great one.
Magnus Magus 07-03-05, 09:57 AM	Moogle, Kintara, Bruunwald; thank you for your advice. I appreciate it very much. I guess the thing that I am more worried about than anything is what will happen because of my actions, particularly if I voice my concern/desires and stay. The last thing I want to do is mess up (what used to be) a good thing or make it impossible for new players to join. Unfortunately, the group dynamic was bound to change with fresh blood and no matter what I do will further change things. I tried to address my concerns before when the new player sat down and gamed with us for the first time, but I found minimal support and I didn't want to be overbearing. When I spoke to Player 1 about my concerns, he told me more or less that I should just relax and let things be - enjoy the game for what it is. I used to be the type of person who would get along with the new player, matching or exceeding his joviality. I used to be the "cut up" in my fair share of groups. Had I known or suspected that I was infringing on someone else's fun, or had been told so, I would have done my best to change my behavior. Ultimately, I would have failed because I lacked maturity at that time. Something has changed since then that makes me feel that the limited time that I can commit to anything of worth should be fulfilling, engaging and challenging rather than comfortable, fluffy and whimsical. All that being said, I am still uncertain what my course will be, though I have a better idea of what I will not do. I guess I will find out on Thursday night when my group assembles again and I have a chance to speak about what has been on my mind.
Aeristoch 07-03-05, 06:26 PM	Instead of being the "elitist gamer" you should actually try talking directly to the new player. Don't force your style of game on him, that could **** him off and just cause him to become even more disruptive. Usually I'd say let the DM handle this, but since they are roomies it might cause some undue stress between them, so with your DM's permission, ssee if you can talk to him instead. If he gives the greenlight explain to him that he's disrupting your fun of the game. Call him out in front of the others during a game, but keep your cool.
20goingon1232 07-03-05, 07:17 PM	I would look at it from the other side of the coin, if I may. Instead of looking at it from YOUR perspective, how about look at it from THEIR perspective? Are the other 3 players having fun jawing and carrying on? Would they prefer your way of deep-immersion, or the more informal roll with the jokes style? I can accept that you are not enjoying it, although IME, most players prefer to treat DnD as a get together activity rather than a stint in front of the cameras doing ER. But, if you are the only one not enjoying it, it is YOU and not HE that is causing the problems here. Majority rules, I'm afraid. You walking might be the best and most mature option rather than blowing up and spoiling it for everyone else. However, if HE is the only one enjoying the jokes and "inane commentary", then it is time to tell him to knock it off or leave. I hope this helps. For the record, I spend all of Saturday afternoon laughing my rear off at the antics of my players (I am the DM). I also spent much of Tuesday night laughing at jokes, "inane" commentary and other stuff from the other players (I am not the DM in this one) and even offered a few of my own. To me DnD is more about FUN than RP.
Ssussunriyh 07-03-05, 07:19 PM	...don't look for "gamers" first, and people you're comfortable with second. :thumbsup: Well put.
Magnus Magus 07-04-05, 04:50 PM	I would look at it from the other side of the coin, if I may. Instead of looking at it from YOUR perspective, how about look at it from THEIR perspective? Are the other 3 players having fun jawing and carrying on? Would they prefer your way of deep-immersion, or the more informal roll with the jokes style? Stepping out of one's shoes is a good way to get perspective. : ) Player 1's habits have changed from being active and focused to either joking, being laid back or just quiet. I've talked to him at length because he has seen that I am not happy with what is going on. Once in a while, he tries to get the game focused, but for the most part, he's just content to play I guess. Player 2 (the DM) jokes, but he has admitted that even he's been frustrated at times and wishes the game would be a bit more focused. Despite the other player being his roommate, he's said that he didn't want what we had to change and would ask the roommate to leave if it were a problem. As a DM, I think the last session, which didn't have much in the way of combat, but was rich in objectives to be pursued (that didn't get pursued) As for what they would prefer - Player 1 just likes sitting at the table, though if things continue the way they are I think he won't for long. Player 2 said he was happy with the way things were going before. Since he's DMing, I would have to assume that he'd want his hard work to be appreciated in some manner. Player 3 might not know there is an alternative to what he has experienced. Judging from his first 5 games, I think he's too busy trying to entertain everyone to sit back and figure out that there more to our games (at least, there was). I can accept that you are not enjoying it, although IME, most players prefer to treat DnD as a get together activity rather than a stint in front of the cameras doing ER. I'm not saying that the experience has to be without levity or humor, nor do I expect to win an Oscar for roleplaying, but there are many ways to roleplay as there are roleplayers - none of them are more "correct" or "better" than the others. It's a matter of taste. I find "Dork Tower" or "Nodwick" funny because they are a commentary on gaming and gamers, but they're not a guide on how to game or how to be a gamer. That being said, even Tolkein had humor to balance out the grimness in LotR, but not so much that the overall feel of the story. When the humor gets out of control where it gets in the way of forwarding the plot (something we never had a problem with before), that's when I see it being a waste of my time. But, if you are the only one not enjoying it, it is YOU and not HE that is causing the problems here. Majority rules, I'm afraid. You walking might be the best and most mature option rather than blowing up and spoiling it for everyone else. It's a no win situation in my book - I can leave and possibly destabilize the group; create resentment or sit there and waste my time. Effort and history ignored, yes, majority rules. Leaving IS the best option if it comes to that, but I will speak openly and honestly to my group first and see what they think.
20goingon1232 07-04-05, 08:19 PM	You do not know the effect you leaving would have on the group. As much as it hurts to think so, they might have a better time with you gone. If they don't, they'll call you back, especially if you guys are such good friends. Sometimes, the best way to show people their error is to shock them. You leaving might just do that. Then again, it might not. That is up to you to decide based on your knowledge of your friends. I do really beg to differ on your views of humour in games. Take a look at the "Best Lines Ever" thread. Kitten there seem to be having a LOT of fun and much of what goes on, while in-character, hardly seems conducive to furthering the plot. Not everyone likes Tolkien (I, for one, don't) and some people might prefer Eddings (which I do). I guess what I am saying is that your group might have moved on to a different part of the gaming experience (although your post indicates that they are not that happy either). You can either move with them or leave. Now, if all three of you really prefer the deep immersion style of playing, it may be time to form a united front and talk to the other guy. There is not much else that we can help you with, I'm afraid. Ultimately, it all rests on how well you know your friends.