Aasimar w/ Human Paragon Lvls? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Aasimar w/ Human Paragon Lvls? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talon71
03-03-05, 02:42 PM I am creating a character and selected Aasimar as my race. Aasimar is the result of a Celestial being and Human mating. Thus, my interpretation was that an Aasimar is part Celestial and part human. Therefore I took levels in human paragon.

My DM replied to me with this:

True, but in the rules, aasimar is a distinct race, not a template, right? If your PC's race is aasimar, then he is not a human, but an aasimar. Shouldn't that preclude him from taking human paragon levels?

Anyone out there that could shed some light or has any thoughts, that would be great?
Thoronmir
03-03-05, 03:14 PM Sounds like your DM got it right. Think of it this way, would you argue in favor of a Half-Orc (or Half-Elf) taking levels in Human Paragon just because one of it's parents was Human?
Talon71
03-03-05, 03:50 PM So, if that is the case, would a half-orc be precluded from taking Orc paragon (not to sure if this exists, I do not have the book here) or a half-elf taking elf paragon levels?
TinManFan
03-03-05, 03:57 PM they have their own paragon classes
eRaz0r
03-03-05, 03:58 PM Well actually, Half Orcs and Half elves are both eligible to take Human Paragon Or Orc/Elf Paragon in addition to their racial paragon levels. Check out the UA entries on all three classes for info.

So basically, there is a precedent for this.

However, I'm not sure that Aasimar are first generation Human/Celestial offspring. I'm pretty sure HalfElves and Half-Orcs are. (In Eberron, for example, they make sure that you know that 1/2 Elves and 1/2 Orcs breed true with each other and are distinct races).

So basically it's up to the DM. By default Aasimar are not considered half-humans and eligible for Human Paragon. Same thing for Half-Dragons etc.
SKB
03-03-05, 04:32 PM Except that if you read the description in the Monster Manual v3.5 under Planetouched on page 209, it states that ..."Assimars are humans with some trace of celestial blood in their veins"... therefore, the Human Paragon class can be applied.

Also, if you look in UA there is a Tiefling Paragon class as well, so I would ask a question "Why didn't WoTC also have an Assimar Paragon?"...and the answer is in my above statement.
Helmed Horror
03-03-05, 04:33 PM the question is that the writers for one reason or another did not include it. They have a tiefling one so why not aasimar?

Someone must heed the call to make an asimar paragon class!
SKB
03-03-05, 04:34 PM Why rewrite what is already written?...Assimars are humans therefore the Human Paragon applies. Tieflings are Tieflings therefore they have their own Tiefling Paragon class.
Spirit_Golem
03-03-05, 04:35 PM I think it is is truly annoying that there are Tiefling paragon levels, but not Aasimar paragon levels
ShadowDragon8685
03-03-05, 04:42 PM By the fluff, Aasimars and Tieflings should BOTH qualify for Human Racial Paragon classes.

By the hardcode, they should not.

I'd say tell your DM to put up or shut up - either MAKE the Aasimar Racial Paragon, or let you take Human Racial Paragon.
quintus
03-03-05, 05:24 PM Why rewrite what is already written?...Assimars are humans therefore the Human Paragon applies. Tieflings are Tieflings therefore they have their own Tiefling Paragon class.
Aasimar and Tieflings put in the same section of the book for a reason. They're basically the same thing. They're both planetouched with either celestial (Aasimar) or demonic (Tiefling) blood.

It doesn't say so explicitly, but it's implied strongly that they are not first generation offspring, but rather can trace back to one celestial/demonic ancestor more than one generation back. It would seem that they're as qualified as (if not more than) half-elves and half-orcs to Human Paragon levels...

It's definitely house-rule territory, though, considering the fact that Aasimar and Tiefling are both +1 ECL races...
SKB
03-03-05, 05:43 PM To help ease the confusion...read Unearthed Arcana page 32 under "Subraces and Paragon Classes," this should provide "clarity" of how to apply the paragon class to subraces (those not listed in the "core" Racial Paragon Classes in UA). If it doesn't then we all should stop reading and debating rules and just make up our own crap, cause then we all know it will work even if there is no official ruling. :D
eRaz0r
03-03-05, 07:50 PM Or ban them all :)
Why should there even *be* Paragon classes at all? Stupid idea IMHO

;)
ShadowDragon8685
03-03-05, 08:05 PM Because people want to be Legolas or Mialee or Gimli. :P

To be honest, I have no idea. All I know is that it's a racial PrC that bases on your race and plays to it's strengths.
God of Slivers
03-03-05, 08:05 PM There was a thread a while back that delt with the same thing. In fact, the designer who wrote up the paragons showed up and explained why they didn't do an aasimar paragon. Afterwards he then posted an aasimar paragon in the thread. Try doing a search for aasimar paragons, it should turn something up.
Millenia
03-03-05, 08:10 PM The child of a celestial and a human would be a half-celestial (with the same applying to fiends and elementals), and the child of the half-celestial and a human would be an aasimar (or a tiefling, or a genasi, ect).

Besides, there's already an Aasimar Paragon class here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=251402&page=1
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
03-04-05, 12:19 AM Since there is a tiefling parangon, could you be a tiefling parangon/human parangon? It doesn't make much sense...
Aricandor
03-04-05, 02:47 AM Indeed it does not. That's why I make sure every race has its own distinct paragon and disallow any crossings.
No half orc human paragon/half-orc paragons in my games. :)
Dartanel
03-04-05, 03:00 AM So you're just arbitrarily Nerfing the Half-Orc and Half-Elf Paragons?

Note: One of the class features of the Half-Orc and Half-Elf paragon classes is the ability to choose one of their parent races to take levels of Paragon in.
I.E. A 1st level Half-Orc paragon can choose to also qualify for either Orc or Human paragon.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
03-04-05, 04:55 PM It's not a class feature... It's not in the core rulebook. It's something that was added in an optional rule supplement... Yet, the very presence of a tiefling parangon make it strange to give 2 kind of parangon class available for a single race...
Dartanel
03-05-05, 01:21 AM For varying degrees of 'So is the entire class'

Besides, Teifling Paragon doesn't get the mixed ancestry class feature, so it's not relevant to my statement.
Ut-Napishtim
03-05-05, 05:37 AM I'd say tell your DM to put up or shut up - either MAKE the Aasimar Racial Paragon, or let you take Human Racial Paragon.

Wow, and people wonder why nobody wants to DM. I mean, the DM already let the guy take and optional race, and simply wouldn't let him take an optional PrC. Just because you drop $35 on a supplment doesn't mean the DM has to let you use it. If this guy's DM was not letting him take something out of the PHB I'd be backing him up, but UA is not a core book.

Let me play this class or make me one yourself! is probably one of the most asinine things I think I've heard a player say. If one of my players gave me that ultimatum I'd probably have to say: Look Chuck, I know you wanted the cool powers and leet abilities of that class, but I just don't feel it's right. You've already got a cool race, and there's nothing wrong with the classes in the PHB. Heck if it were actually my job to waste time making you a class - they wouldn't bother to put any in the PHB. They did though, and those are the classes you are garaunteed to be able to play, anything out of The Complete Book of Spiked Chain Wielders is subject to my approval though.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
03-06-05, 11:34 PM Wow, and people wonder why nobody wants to DM. I mean, the DM already let the guy take and optional race, and simply wouldn't let him take an optional PrC. Just because you drop $35 on a supplment doesn't mean the DM has to let you use it. If this guy's DM was not letting him take something out of the PHB I'd be backing him up, but UA is not a core book.

Let me play this class or make me one yourself! is probably one of the most asinine things I think I've heard a player say. If one of my players gave me that ultimatum I'd probably have to say: Look Chuck, I know you wanted the cool powers and leet abilities of that class, but I just don't feel it's right. You've already got a cool race, and there's nothing wrong with the classes in the PHB. Heck if it were actually my job to waste time making you a class - they wouldn't bother to put any in the PHB. They did though, and those are the classes you are garaunteed to be able to play, anything out of The Complete Book of Spiked Chain Wielders is subject to my approval though.
Give this man a medal. Now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talon71 03-03-05, 02:42 PM	I am creating a character and selected Aasimar as my race. Aasimar is the result of a Celestial being and Human mating. Thus, my interpretation was that an Aasimar is part Celestial and part human. Therefore I took levels in human paragon. My DM replied to me with this: True, but in the rules, aasimar is a distinct race, not a template, right? If your PC's race is aasimar, then he is not a human, but an aasimar. Shouldn't that preclude him from taking human paragon levels? Anyone out there that could shed some light or has any thoughts, that would be great?
Thoronmir 03-03-05, 03:14 PM	Sounds like your DM got it right. Think of it this way, would you argue in favor of a Half-Orc (or Half-Elf) taking levels in Human Paragon just because one of it's parents was Human?
Talon71 03-03-05, 03:50 PM	So, if that is the case, would a half-orc be precluded from taking Orc paragon (not to sure if this exists, I do not have the book here) or a half-elf taking elf paragon levels?
TinManFan 03-03-05, 03:57 PM	they have their own paragon classes
eRaz0r 03-03-05, 03:58 PM	Well actually, Half Orcs and Half elves are both eligible to take Human Paragon Or Orc/Elf Paragon in addition to their racial paragon levels. Check out the UA entries on all three classes for info. So basically, there is a precedent for this. However, I'm not sure that Aasimar are first generation Human/Celestial offspring. I'm pretty sure HalfElves and Half-Orcs are. (In Eberron, for example, they make sure that you know that 1/2 Elves and 1/2 Orcs breed true with each other and are distinct races). So basically it's up to the DM. By default Aasimar are not considered half-humans and eligible for Human Paragon. Same thing for Half-Dragons etc.
SKB 03-03-05, 04:32 PM	Except that if you read the description in the Monster Manual v3.5 under Planetouched on page 209, it states that ..."Assimars are humans with some trace of celestial blood in their veins"... therefore, the Human Paragon class can be applied. Also, if you look in UA there is a Tiefling Paragon class as well, so I would ask a question "Why didn't WoTC also have an Assimar Paragon?"...and the answer is in my above statement.
Helmed Horror 03-03-05, 04:33 PM	the question is that the writers for one reason or another did not include it. They have a tiefling one so why not aasimar? Someone must heed the call to make an asimar paragon class!
SKB 03-03-05, 04:34 PM	Why rewrite what is already written?...Assimars are humans therefore the Human Paragon applies. Tieflings are Tieflings therefore they have their own Tiefling Paragon class.
Spirit_Golem 03-03-05, 04:35 PM	I think it is is truly annoying that there are Tiefling paragon levels, but not Aasimar paragon levels
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 04:42 PM	By the fluff, Aasimars and Tieflings should BOTH qualify for Human Racial Paragon classes. By the hardcode, they should not. I'd say tell your DM to put up or shut up - either MAKE the Aasimar Racial Paragon, or let you take Human Racial Paragon.
quintus 03-03-05, 05:24 PM	Why rewrite what is already written?...Assimars are humans therefore the Human Paragon applies. Tieflings are Tieflings therefore they have their own Tiefling Paragon class. Aasimar and Tieflings put in the same section of the book for a reason. They're basically the same thing. They're both planetouched with either celestial (Aasimar) or demonic (Tiefling) blood. It doesn't say so explicitly, but it's implied strongly that they are not first generation offspring, but rather can trace back to one celestial/demonic ancestor more than one generation back. It would seem that they're as qualified as (if not more than) half-elves and half-orcs to Human Paragon levels... It's definitely house-rule territory, though, considering the fact that Aasimar and Tiefling are both +1 ECL races...
SKB 03-03-05, 05:43 PM	To help ease the confusion...read Unearthed Arcana page 32 under "Subraces and Paragon Classes," this should provide "clarity" of how to apply the paragon class to subraces (those not listed in the "core" Racial Paragon Classes in UA). If it doesn't then we all should stop reading and debating rules and just make up our own crap, cause then we all know it will work even if there is no official ruling. :D
eRaz0r 03-03-05, 07:50 PM	Or ban them all :) Why should there even be Paragon classes at all? Stupid idea IMHO ;)
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 08:05 PM	Because people want to be Legolas or Mialee or Gimli. :P To be honest, I have no idea. All I know is that it's a racial PrC that bases on your race and plays to it's strengths.
God of Slivers 03-03-05, 08:05 PM	There was a thread a while back that delt with the same thing. In fact, the designer who wrote up the paragons showed up and explained why they didn't do an aasimar paragon. Afterwards he then posted an aasimar paragon in the thread. Try doing a search for aasimar paragons, it should turn something up.
Millenia 03-03-05, 08:10 PM	The child of a celestial and a human would be a half-celestial (with the same applying to fiends and elementals), and the child of the half-celestial and a human would be an aasimar (or a tiefling, or a genasi, ect). Besides, there's already an Aasimar Paragon class here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=251402&page=1
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-04-05, 12:19 AM	Since there is a tiefling parangon, could you be a tiefling parangon/human parangon? It doesn't make much sense...
Aricandor 03-04-05, 02:47 AM	Indeed it does not. That's why I make sure every race has its own distinct paragon and disallow any crossings. No half orc human paragon/half-orc paragons in my games. :)
Dartanel 03-04-05, 03:00 AM	So you're just arbitrarily Nerfing the Half-Orc and Half-Elf Paragons? Note: One of the class features of the Half-Orc and Half-Elf paragon classes is the ability to choose one of their parent races to take levels of Paragon in. I.E. A 1st level Half-Orc paragon can choose to also qualify for either Orc or Human paragon.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-04-05, 04:55 PM	It's not a class feature... It's not in the core rulebook. It's something that was added in an optional rule supplement... Yet, the very presence of a tiefling parangon make it strange to give 2 kind of parangon class available for a single race...
Dartanel 03-05-05, 01:21 AM	For varying degrees of 'So is the entire class' Besides, Teifling Paragon doesn't get the mixed ancestry class feature, so it's not relevant to my statement.
Ut-Napishtim 03-05-05, 05:37 AM	I'd say tell your DM to put up or shut up - either MAKE the Aasimar Racial Paragon, or let you take Human Racial Paragon. Wow, and people wonder why nobody wants to DM. I mean, the DM already let the guy take and optional race, and simply wouldn't let him take an optional PrC. Just because you drop $35 on a supplment doesn't mean the DM has to let you use it. If this guy's DM was not letting him take something out of the PHB I'd be backing him up, but UA is not a core book. Let me play this class or make me one yourself! is probably one of the most asinine things I think I've heard a player say. If one of my players gave me that ultimatum I'd probably have to say: Look Chuck, I know you wanted the cool powers and leet abilities of that class, but I just don't feel it's right. You've already got a cool race, and there's nothing wrong with the classes in the PHB. Heck if it were actually my job to waste time making you a class - they wouldn't bother to put any in the PHB. They did though, and those are the classes you are garaunteed to be able to play, anything out of The Complete Book of Spiked Chain Wielders is subject to my approval though.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-06-05, 11:34 PM	Wow, and people wonder why nobody wants to DM. I mean, the DM already let the guy take and optional race, and simply wouldn't let him take an optional PrC. Just because you drop $35 on a supplment doesn't mean the DM has to let you use it. If this guy's DM was not letting him take something out of the PHB I'd be backing him up, but UA is not a core book. Let me play this class or make me one yourself! is probably one of the most asinine things I think I've heard a player say. If one of my players gave me that ultimatum I'd probably have to say: Look Chuck, I know you wanted the cool powers and leet abilities of that class, but I just don't feel it's right. You've already got a cool race, and there's nothing wrong with the classes in the PHB. Heck if it were actually my job to waste time making you a class - they wouldn't bother to put any in the PHB. They did though, and those are the classes you are garaunteed to be able to play, anything out of The Complete Book of Spiked Chain Wielders is subject to my approval though. Give this man a medal. Now.