abused players against house rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

abused players against house rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aleko
03-10-06, 01:43 AM Whoops, I posted this in the dm board before I realized there was a player board... so here's the post again... in the correct place. Mods please delete the other post when you get a chance.

Last friday my dm made an interested ruling. He stated that fire resistance did not stop subdual damage caused by high heat areas like deserts. He said it was because the (1d4) damage stuck and so essentially fire resistance was like having extra hp against areas above 90 degrees. I find this silly since natural flame only does 1d6 and so it won't burn you for a while if you had fire resistance 5. Could you guys give some input and perhaps direct me to an official wizards of the coast ruling. My dm is really hardcore about official stuff despite using lame 3rd party book rules where traps have dc's of 32 against my lvl 4 rogue (he says it is easy if character can make it on a 15+ roll(I have a +17 to disable and search)) and if I fail by one I set off the trap. Any official links to somewhere would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
P.S. He argues with core books sometimes too. (Old second edition player)
P.S.S. Also if there is a place online where I can show my dm that alignment works different than it did in 2nd edition I would love it.
Gauze Fireforge
03-10-06, 02:02 AM Whoops, I posted this in the dm board before I realized there was a player board... so here's the post again... in the correct place. Mods please delete the other post when you get a chance.

Last friday my dm made an interested ruling. He stated that fire resistance did not stop subdual damage caused by high heat areas like deserts. He said it was because the (1d4) damage stuck and so essentially fire resistance was like having extra hp against areas above 90 degrees. I find this silly since natural flame only does 1d6 and so it won't burn you for a while if you had fire resistance 5. Could you guys give some input and perhaps direct me to an official wizards of the coast ruling. My dm is really hardcore about official stuff despite using lame 3rd party book rules where traps have dc's of 32 against my lvl 4 rogue (he says it is easy if character can make it on a 15+ roll(I have a +17 to disable and search)) and if I fail by one I set off the trap. Any official links to somewhere would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
P.S. He argues with core books sometimes too. (Old second edition player)
P.S.S. Also if there is a place online where I can show my dm that alignment works different than it did in 2nd edition I would love it.

Page 298 of the DMG 3.5

"A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type (such as cold, electricity, or fire) each round, but it does not have total immunity"

Also, on page 303 of the DMG 3.5

"heat deals nonleathal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth)

Lastly, damage is defined in the PHB 3.5 as being "A decrese in hit points, an ability score or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal, nonlethal and ability damage"

In short, no you dont take damage from heat damage if you have resistance to fire. The Dm's flavour text of its a barrier of some type is interesting, but superfuluos. By the RAW, you dont take damage.

There is nothing more disturbing than a DM who uses 3rd party books, granted they can have some excellent ideas, options and advice but usually they can cause serious balance issues with the core game in not monitored with extreme prejudice.

I would be interested to know what the CR of the trap he is throwing at you which requires a search check of DC 32. Either the CR is extremely high or the consequences of the trap are very minimal to be on par with you party's effective level.

Good luck :cool:
babysamurai
03-10-06, 08:56 AM my lvl 4 rogue have a +17 to disable and search)

I'm really interested to know how a 4th level rogue can get a +17 on ANY skill check?
Throg
03-10-06, 10:14 AM Hmm...

Search: Ranks 7 + 4 (assuming int 18) + 3 (Skill Focus: Search) + 2 (Elf) +2 (Knowlage Archetecture) = 18

It's not HARD to get to a +17 in a skill if you want a +17 in a skill.
It just might not make you effective elseware.. Anyways, to what the OP is asking.

My own group just goes with RAW, ask him to look it up in the DMG, it -should- point out that fire resist will ignore 5pts of fire damage, heat or otherwise. But of course, there are people out there which it's hard to explain things to.
rockondon
03-10-06, 03:54 PM I made a house rule that when I DM, anyone who gives me a Tim Horton's coffee will almost certainly recieve at least one dice roll of mine rolled during that session will be altered in their favor.

I realize that this is grossly unfair to the non-coffee-bringing players, but somehow I've managed to make peace with that.

:cool:
OravennasBrother
03-10-06, 05:30 PM Perhaps your DM is trying to simulate dehydration and feels that your resistance to fire does not keep you from losing moisture to the dry desert air. Admittedly it is more liekly that he forgot your resistance and decided on the spot to not let a little thing like that stop his personal favorites way of making the characters sweat (pun intended).
Luminosity
03-11-06, 03:40 PM As a DM, I would rule that fire resistance does not prevent heat-based subdual damage, as it is more the result of dehydration than heat itself.
Almast
03-11-06, 09:00 PM Why?

It's not hot to you, so you're not sweating more, so you're not becoming dehydrated at a rate greater than normal.

The heat causes the sweating, the sweating causes the dehydration. If you've got resistance to fire, it's not hot, so you're not sweating, sooo...
Deekin
03-11-06, 09:48 PM Heat deals subdule fire damage, not subdule dehydration damage, the rules are in sandstorm.
danielinthewolvesden
03-13-06, 12:16 PM As a DM, I would rule that fire resistance does not prevent heat-based subdual damage, as it is more the result of dehydration than heat itself.

This will make it very easy on the Celestials, as thus all the demons in hell have then collapsed due to the fire & brimstone. :rolleyes:
Archangel62
03-14-06, 05:45 AM Demons and devils don't need to eat or drink, at least I don't think they do.
Milo HoBo
03-14-06, 07:36 PM My first DM divided the experience according to what you (as an individual, not as a group) killed. I'll never play a support character in his games again.
Sianger
03-14-06, 09:08 PM Heat deals subdule fire damage, not subdule dehydration damage, the rules are in sandstorm.

This is simple to reason out.

RAW, you won't reduce the damage from being in the desert by having lots of water, will you?
I'm willing to bet, if you ask your DM, "say we've got a decanter of endless water with us, so we're not going to be dehydrated, will we still take damage from being in the desert?", he's still going to rule you take damage.

So, obviously, the damage is due to the temperature itself. Your flesh is being baked, slowly but surely. Like roasting over a low fire. Therefore fire resistance logically should help (and it does help anyway, RAW).

So to those DMs who say it wouldn't help because the damage is due to dehydration - I hope you'll then be consistent and let your players negate the damage by having lots of water.
sneak_Blast
03-14-06, 10:28 PM Read the first chapter of Sandstorm. There are various degrees of protection from the elements. Fire resistance 5 is the highest one. (according to this, endure elements gives you fire and cold resistance 5) Sandstorm has all the rules you need for dealing with the heat, dehydration, etc.
Judging Eagle
03-15-06, 11:18 AM My first DM divided the experience according to what you (as an individual, not as a group) killed. I'll never play a support character in his games again.

Be a cleric and never heal PCs until you get XP for healing?

Or just you know... destroy everything with your cleric from 4th lvl onwards?

Or play an archivist for super melee ownage?

Fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladins all make ****** melee classes. Good for endurance melees, but that's it. Oh, wait, you can give yourself persistant divine metamagiced divine power. /oh snap!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aleko 03-10-06, 01:43 AM	Whoops, I posted this in the dm board before I realized there was a player board... so here's the post again... in the correct place. Mods please delete the other post when you get a chance. Last friday my dm made an interested ruling. He stated that fire resistance did not stop subdual damage caused by high heat areas like deserts. He said it was because the (1d4) damage stuck and so essentially fire resistance was like having extra hp against areas above 90 degrees. I find this silly since natural flame only does 1d6 and so it won't burn you for a while if you had fire resistance 5. Could you guys give some input and perhaps direct me to an official wizards of the coast ruling. My dm is really hardcore about official stuff despite using lame 3rd party book rules where traps have dc's of 32 against my lvl 4 rogue (he says it is easy if character can make it on a 15+ roll(I have a +17 to disable and search)) and if I fail by one I set off the trap. Any official links to somewhere would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. P.S. He argues with core books sometimes too. (Old second edition player) P.S.S. Also if there is a place online where I can show my dm that alignment works different than it did in 2nd edition I would love it.
Gauze Fireforge 03-10-06, 02:02 AM	Whoops, I posted this in the dm board before I realized there was a player board... so here's the post again... in the correct place. Mods please delete the other post when you get a chance. Last friday my dm made an interested ruling. He stated that fire resistance did not stop subdual damage caused by high heat areas like deserts. He said it was because the (1d4) damage stuck and so essentially fire resistance was like having extra hp against areas above 90 degrees. I find this silly since natural flame only does 1d6 and so it won't burn you for a while if you had fire resistance 5. Could you guys give some input and perhaps direct me to an official wizards of the coast ruling. My dm is really hardcore about official stuff despite using lame 3rd party book rules where traps have dc's of 32 against my lvl 4 rogue (he says it is easy if character can make it on a 15+ roll(I have a +17 to disable and search)) and if I fail by one I set off the trap. Any official links to somewhere would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. P.S. He argues with core books sometimes too. (Old second edition player) P.S.S. Also if there is a place online where I can show my dm that alignment works different than it did in 2nd edition I would love it. Page 298 of the DMG 3.5 "A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type (such as cold, electricity, or fire) each round, but it does not have total immunity" Also, on page 303 of the DMG 3.5 "heat deals nonleathal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth) Lastly, damage is defined in the PHB 3.5 as being "A decrese in hit points, an ability score or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal, nonlethal and ability damage" In short, no you dont take damage from heat damage if you have resistance to fire. The Dm's flavour text of its a barrier of some type is interesting, but superfuluos. By the RAW, you dont take damage. There is nothing more disturbing than a DM who uses 3rd party books, granted they can have some excellent ideas, options and advice but usually they can cause serious balance issues with the core game in not monitored with extreme prejudice. I would be interested to know what the CR of the trap he is throwing at you which requires a search check of DC 32. Either the CR is extremely high or the consequences of the trap are very minimal to be on par with you party's effective level. Good luck :cool:
babysamurai 03-10-06, 08:56 AM	my lvl 4 rogue have a +17 to disable and search) I'm really interested to know how a 4th level rogue can get a +17 on ANY skill check?
Throg 03-10-06, 10:14 AM	Hmm... Search: Ranks 7 + 4 (assuming int 18) + 3 (Skill Focus: Search) + 2 (Elf) +2 (Knowlage Archetecture) = 18 It's not HARD to get to a +17 in a skill if you want a +17 in a skill. It just might not make you effective elseware.. Anyways, to what the OP is asking. My own group just goes with RAW, ask him to look it up in the DMG, it -should- point out that fire resist will ignore 5pts of fire damage, heat or otherwise. But of course, there are people out there which it's hard to explain things to.
rockondon 03-10-06, 03:54 PM	I made a house rule that when I DM, anyone who gives me a Tim Horton's coffee will almost certainly recieve at least one dice roll of mine rolled during that session will be altered in their favor. I realize that this is grossly unfair to the non-coffee-bringing players, but somehow I've managed to make peace with that. :cool:
OravennasBrother 03-10-06, 05:30 PM	Perhaps your DM is trying to simulate dehydration and feels that your resistance to fire does not keep you from losing moisture to the dry desert air. Admittedly it is more liekly that he forgot your resistance and decided on the spot to not let a little thing like that stop his personal favorites way of making the characters sweat (pun intended).
Luminosity 03-11-06, 03:40 PM	As a DM, I would rule that fire resistance does not prevent heat-based subdual damage, as it is more the result of dehydration than heat itself.
Almast 03-11-06, 09:00 PM	Why? It's not hot to you, so you're not sweating more, so you're not becoming dehydrated at a rate greater than normal. The heat causes the sweating, the sweating causes the dehydration. If you've got resistance to fire, it's not hot, so you're not sweating, sooo...
Deekin 03-11-06, 09:48 PM	Heat deals subdule fire damage, not subdule dehydration damage, the rules are in sandstorm.
danielinthewolvesden 03-13-06, 12:16 PM	As a DM, I would rule that fire resistance does not prevent heat-based subdual damage, as it is more the result of dehydration than heat itself. This will make it very easy on the Celestials, as thus all the demons in hell have then collapsed due to the fire & brimstone. :rolleyes:
Archangel62 03-14-06, 05:45 AM	Demons and devils don't need to eat or drink, at least I don't think they do.
Milo HoBo 03-14-06, 07:36 PM	My first DM divided the experience according to what you (as an individual, not as a group) killed. I'll never play a support character in his games again.
Sianger 03-14-06, 09:08 PM	Heat deals subdule fire damage, not subdule dehydration damage, the rules are in sandstorm. This is simple to reason out. RAW, you won't reduce the damage from being in the desert by having lots of water, will you? I'm willing to bet, if you ask your DM, "say we've got a decanter of endless water with us, so we're not going to be dehydrated, will we still take damage from being in the desert?", he's still going to rule you take damage. So, obviously, the damage is due to the temperature itself. Your flesh is being baked, slowly but surely. Like roasting over a low fire. Therefore fire resistance logically should help (and it does help anyway, RAW). So to those DMs who say it wouldn't help because the damage is due to dehydration - I hope you'll then be consistent and let your players negate the damage by having lots of water.
sneak_Blast 03-14-06, 10:28 PM	Read the first chapter of Sandstorm. There are various degrees of protection from the elements. Fire resistance 5 is the highest one. (according to this, endure elements gives you fire and cold resistance 5) Sandstorm has all the rules you need for dealing with the heat, dehydration, etc.
Judging Eagle 03-15-06, 11:18 AM	My first DM divided the experience according to what you (as an individual, not as a group) killed. I'll never play a support character in his games again. Be a cleric and never heal PCs until you get XP for healing? Or just you know... destroy everything with your cleric from 4th lvl onwards? Or play an archivist for super melee ownage? Fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladins all make ****** melee classes. Good for endurance melees, but that's it. Oh, wait, you can give yourself persistant divine metamagiced divine power. /oh snap!