Access to prestige classes.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Access to prestige classes.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mr Waverly
09-24-04, 12:32 PM Its a simple question. How easy should it be to get a prestige class? My DM will be reading this too at some point. I won't bias it now by saying what I think. Please people, give me your opinions.
Fiery_Fighter_Drake
09-24-04, 12:38 PM Personally, it should be as long as you fufill both the game AND roleplaying requirements. Example; say you were to take class of Horizonwalker. Any terrain mastery you choose should be one you have already traversed. Same goes for planar mastery.

Also, some PrCs are innately hard to get, such as the Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight. So long as you can roleplay how your character got the class, it should be okay, by my opinion anyways.
CzarGarrett
09-24-04, 12:52 PM Three guidelines:

1. Do you qualify for the PrC?
2. Does the PrC fit into the campaign world?
3. Does the DM approve it?

If you qualify and it fits into the campaign world, ask the DM. If the DM says okay, then its ago.
Kittencaboodle
09-24-04, 01:19 PM Currently a rogue I am playing has acheived her first level of Shadowdancer.

However, the only reason I am able to access that prestige class is due to the fact that I joined a secret underground organization that uses the PrC. We have to find a teacher to teach us.
The Man from Uncle
09-24-04, 02:05 PM Your DM should give you the chance to roleplay the prereqs too. Its tough sometimes if you are just doing quest after quest. Tell him way in advance and see if he can fit it in to his master plan that you meet a 'Dwarven Kinsman'
DrWorm
09-24-04, 02:10 PM I generally, as DM, have final say in whether a PrC is available to the PCs. That being said I have rarely said no outright. Most of the time, if it is an especially exotic one, I make it part of an adventure quest to gain access to the PrC either through training or orhtwise. I work with my players, and my players in turn do not ask me for PrCs that are out of character.
Stuntman
09-24-04, 02:21 PM Mechanically, it is as easy as having the prerequesites. It's like getting a feat. If you want Great Cleave, you need Str 13, Power Attack, Cleave and a BAB of +4. Prerequesites for PrC's are generally more difficult to get than most feats. The prereqs may include, but not limited to things like a minimum BAB, minimum ranks in certain skills, certain feats, some proficiency in spellcasting, etc. There are also some PrC's that have some role playing requirement such as joining some society or performing some task. If you meet the prereq's, then according to the rules, you can take the PrC.

Now, the DM does have the final say in whether or not he allows certain PrC's or any at all in his campaign. It is best to discuss it with your DM regarding your plan for your character and if it would fit in his campaign. Some DM's are more restrictive than others with regard to PrC's. The DM must use his judgement when deciding whether or not to allow any particular one.
allenchan
09-24-04, 03:42 PM Like everyone else has been saying, if you meet the prerequesites, then you meet the prerequesites... many PrC's dont have certain niches that an organization might have. A lot of the time as long as it fits with the character its fine by me. For example one of my PC's is going to take the Divine Prankster prc, while he doesnt have it yet, he still channels divine magic and makes jokes, so its not giant leap to the prc
Mister Mayhem
09-24-04, 05:27 PM Prestige classes are a privelige, not a right, and as such, you should only get access to them when the DM of your particular campaign feels you deserve them.

To my mind, that means dedicated roleplaying in order to demonstrate that your character has goals, ambitions and personality suited to that PRC. And it may be literally a demonstration, because it may well be that the only way you can get in touch with the organisation in question (if it is one of the many organisational PRCs) is to make them want to recruit you.

So it shouldn't be easy at all. Merely meeting the mechanical pre-reqs is certainly not enough.
ImmortalBlueMage
09-24-04, 06:51 PM I've never understood DMs who are so retentive about PrCs. Personally, I love them, I think they add great flavor to the character and to the setting. I've never dissallowed a Prestige Class and I honestly don't know that I ever will.
Lincoln Hills
09-24-04, 08:17 PM I strongly prefer to make ANY PrC (and even some multi-classing into other base classes) require a teacher. In spite of the way the mechanic works, you don't just wake up one morning and say, "Gee, suddenly I can (use sorcery/assassinate people/shift shape/leap a tall building in a single bound.)" Not unless there's an artifact or something to blame. ;) Truly exotic skills require some kind of instruction.

Aside from in-game plausibility, consider - this is one of the few times that a player will desperately want something from an NPC that cannot be as easily retrieved from that NPC's butchered, twitching body. Those of you out there who have "hack-oriented" groups understand what I'm getting at here.

"Sure, I'll teach you the art of the Temple Raider. All you have to do is convince the judge to let me out of this darn cell!"
Shard of Suzail
09-24-04, 09:28 PM Prestige classes. I like them. Although, in all my time of playing d20 i have never actually managed to qualify for one. I always seem to make characters that dont quite fit the stereotypical mold that they demand.

I always have a good idea for my character, its just not the one that the game designers envisioned, sadly.

I play a Cleric, i follow a neutral death god, thus i can use necromancy but be in a good aligned party.

Necromancy prestige classes assume you are evil...despite the fact that neutral clerics can channel negative energy (as part of their innate class).

Necromantic fighter prestige classes, like blackguard, assume you are evil and built like an outhouse, with a passion for smashing things. The Neutral, dexterity based combat character, who has a high intelligence to research ancient magics, need not apply. No cleave? Ah well...

Then, to cap it all, a true priest, who specialises in undead type spells, probably needs to pick up *Arcane spells*. I took a level in fighter so as to use my scythe, my gods weapon of choice, which is martial. Becoming treble classed, with a few levels of xp penalty is not good in my book. I also found it nasty that i would be casting spells that didnt rely on my God.

So after all that, i`m a Cleric/fighter and proud to be like that.

***

The upshot of this? A good few prestige classes are hard to get into with just the entry requirements alone. Putting extra hoops in the way is frustrating and painful for players. Mostly, they will have their character research and act in the proper manner just to pick up the right "bits" that are needed to qualify. Joining a club or secret society for a mundane class is getting a bit much.

My current prestige ambition is to be a contemplative. This is good...but...i need to go *speak with my god or his higher minions*. Is my Gm giving my time out for this? No. Thus its probably more fighter levels for me for the time being.

By the time I qualify for most things, i`ll probably be epic at my rate of xp lol.

Dont be too hard on players when it comes to prestige. Sometimes, it just aint easy.
Lina_Inverse
09-25-04, 02:40 AM it depends on the PrC.most PrCs you should rp into but unless your dm is a jerk he should work it into the caimpaign.the mutliclass fixer PrCs well,there just patching the stuipidness of 3E multiclass and only an ******* would deny you those.espilly since there all crap min/max wise.
SnowbearK
09-25-04, 03:23 AM As both a DM and a player with a lot of experience, I love prestige classes. One of the things that finally got me to switch from 2nd Edition to 3rd was Prestige Classes.

That having been said, I'm a real bastard when it comes to them. Well, for multiclassing in general.

My players know that if they want to multiclass into anything, there has to be an in-game reason. Your Barbarian just suddenly starts speaking arcane words and flinging magic missiles out his arse doesn't fly in my games. For general multiclassing amongst the core classes, it doesn't even take a whole lot of justification for me to accept it.

"Remember that weird guy we met on the highway to Damascus, he said my character was destined for another road, and so we took the wrong turn at the fork that turned out to lead to that dragon's lair. What if he what he'd meant was class? I was thinking about multiclassing from fighter to cleric."

Works for me, and we take it from there.

Prestige classes on the other hand, take a bit more work. Oh, so you want to become a Loremaster? Yeah, you meet all the requirements. Next level? That's in about 10 more XP. I don't think so. Why? Because they get kewl powerz? Go away, come back when you've rubbed a few more brain cells together (note, this particular exchange has never actually happened with my players except in jest, but theoretically, it illustrates my point)

There has to be an in-game reason. You don't suddenly become a duelist because you've reached 6th level and can use a rapier very well. The setting first has to support duelists -- usually not a problem, there's always someone happy to poke other people with a sword and be witty and dashing while doing it. The character must have reasonably had access to such a person -- not necessarily a live encounter, perhaps there's a famous Swashbuckler who has had tales told in every tavern from Waterdeep to the Flaeness (Zorro for instance) and the character wants to emulate their "hero" in a similar way. Then we look at the requirements. After that, there's some kind of training period involved, whether on his own or with a mentor.

What it boils down to is, if you want to multiclass in my games, core classes just need a plausible explanation at the time of the level up. PrC's require at least 1 full level's notice in addition to the explanation and requirements. That gives me time to work with the player and make it a smooth addition to the campaign.
Kingside_Bishop
09-25-04, 12:08 PM I see it as if there are two kinds of Prestige Classes: those associated with an organizaion, and those not.

If a Prestige Class is associated with an organization, then the player will have to do some serious roleplaying to get into that organization (i.e. follow that organizations guidelines even though he's not a member, apprentice to a member, work for the organization, you get the idea), in addition to the statistical requirements. For these kinds of O-PrC, I try to tie in as many as possible to into my campaign world that make sense. If I decide, in the planning stages of my campaign that a O-PrC just doesn't fit in my campaign, I don't bother to design a basis for it in my world. Any player who wants that O-PrC is left out in the cold. But I usually let my PCs know about what's available to them, organization wise, and they can always ask before character generation.

If a Prestige Class is not associated with an organization, but to an abstract idea, style of fighting, etc. I usually leave that to the purview of the player. As long as they demonstrate to me their dedication to that aspect of their character, they can get into that PrC, without a teacher most of the time. Unless it seriously contrasts with the game world.

Either way, I like to have at least a few levels of warning and roleplaying.
Gilgiga of the Hunt
09-25-04, 12:46 PM I've never understood DMs who are so retentive about PrCs. Personally, I love them, I think they add great flavor to the character and to the setting. I've never dissallowed a Prestige Class and I honestly don't know that I ever will.

The most serious problem with a PrC is the fact that they offer some powers far beyond the norm. Many game breaking if alowed into the wrong type of game.
Also PrCs are balnced with thimeslves and regular Base Classes, not with each other. So PrC mix matching can get fairly degreadeing fast.
And there is always the flavor restrections would you alow a Kinght of Corr. in Darksun? Or a Wizard of High Soceity in Farun?
Lots of PrCs are campagin specefic, and that's how they should stay. I don't wonna see any Aes Sedai running around Grewhawk.

Edit: Unless she got there via a Use Potal Stone accident and wound up in a miror world instead of somewhere in Randland. Personaly I think that would be great adventure to help her get home.
Darrett
09-25-04, 01:33 PM PrCs should be difficult to get, and some of them should be simply unattainable. There are PRcS which are simply unbalanced. If there's no reason why a player wouldn't want to be a PrC, then you know that it's not something you want in the campaign.

I generally allow most PrCs, provided the player can explain why his character wants to become a Loremaster, for instance, and that player can find a teacher.
Omeg
09-25-04, 05:49 PM This is basically what it all comes down to. :whatsthis:

You give me an idea of what your character is, what it wants to achieve, what it's ambitions are. Then fit PrCs to build the character so that it can achieve these goals.

You say your Character is a half Sun- half Drow-elf Rogue, Converted to the worship of Elistraee that ultimately wishes to get back at the Drow that mutilated and abused her?

Great!

Well, let's see, that'll be divine seeker, maybe a bit of an adapted temple raider, vigilante if you can bring it to me in the right way.

No Evangelist for you, you're too bend for that, no assassin, shadowdancer or guild thief for you then.

PrC's should help you build the character you have envisioned: A fanatical clerlic will max out divine desciple, and then perhaps take some hierophant levels because he or she wishes to start a new church. A wizard loremaster strifing to be the most powerful mage on the face of toril might suddenly decide that only Archmage will give him the power he craves, (followed by Elven High Mage :P)

There are many possibilities, and generally, PcRs should indeed be chosen after discussion with your GM. Remeber, if you can get your DM enthused about where your character is going and what he's trying to achieve he'll be more inclined to change his campain to fit your character. :ayyyy!:
allenchan
09-25-04, 09:20 PM You give me an idea of what your character is, what it wants to achieve, what it's ambitions are. Then fit PrCs to build the character so that it can achieve these goals.

Though Im DMing right now, when I play this is why I normally build a character progression 1-20, then decide on a story to fit it. It helps spur my creativity, too :cool:
Omeg
09-26-04, 12:18 PM Well, not me specifically, just your DM in general :P
darczero
09-28-04, 01:25 AM Interesting question...
First, you obviously have to consider the game mechanics. Those will give you a rough estimate of the minimum level necessary for entry.
Second, if your DM requires roleplay aspects for entry into a prestige class, more power to them. Many prestige classes are based around the specific roles of organizations in a campaign world.
However, if every prestige class requires an apprenticeship or a quest, then things are getting a bit steep. Some prestige classes are simply logical extensions or combinations of existing core classes.
I personally love prestige classes. Nearly every character I have ever played beyond level 10 (and all beyond level 20) have at least one, if not two or more, prestige classes on them. I also (as a DM) require that any player who wishes to pass 20 levels of a core class complete 10 levels of a prestige class that fits their class and character concept.
fatal error
09-28-04, 01:38 AM In unearthed arcana (not arcana unearthed) there is a system for making entry into prestige classes into a sort of test, where you basically have to make checks of a DC where taking ten will make it (I.E. if the class requires 8 ranks in something its a DC 18 check).

In general, I allow pretty much any prestige classes, though its always nice if people tell you want they want to do so you can work it in.
Kiri Sittori
09-30-04, 09:59 AM To ImmortalBlueMage and Lina: I'd have to absolutely disagree with the notion that DM's that regulate/disallow PrC's are "retentive," Otyugh Body Providers, or anything else of the sort.

That said:

All DM's should read, and take to heart, the DMG's section on prestige classes... no matter how many "splat" books come out that add to the seemingly infinite number of them that exist. PrC's really are the domain of the DM, and tools that can help a DM with world building.

This means any PrC that a DM approves of, should already be a part of his setting... not that the setting needs retooled to accommodate a player's desire to use the "thirteen-thirty-seven, �bermax0rz'd, full of kewliez" build that one of the CO monkeys provided for him.

Personally, I do find that a few of them can be achieved only by a personal devotion to the goal, or by a background that supports it. Duellist, weapon master, and dragon disciple come to mind immediately. Any that I decide are on this list, of course, are available to any player that qualifies mechanically.

There are some I don't allow because they overlap with base classes for which I *currently* have information. Master samurai is an excellent example of this... blackguard, on the other hand, is safe (since I don't allow the other-alignment "paladins" on account of a slight... allergy to their flavour.)

"Multiclass fix" classes... if you intend to take one of these, you might be better off talking to me about my gestalt variant rule. :)

Any others? Only if the setting, and roleplaying considerations, provide for them. Loremasters? Sure. Bladesingers? Err... Champ o' Jenny + Frenzied Berserker? No way.
Thorak
09-30-04, 12:38 PM Personally, I pass every character concept I intend to play, including the PrCs intended, past my DM before I start playing the character. Like my current Paladin. He's level 5 now, but before I started playing him, I'd already gotten DM approval to PrC him to Kensai. And he's spent the entire campaign wielding only his uncle's sword (in melee), and RPing it up.

And, IMHO, this is how all PrCs should go. Get DM approval, so if he doesn't want to deal with the headaches of a Frenzied Berserker, you'll know that before you've played 3 months with your Barbarian looking forward to it. And RP the change before it happens, so you don't get that "Oh, I'm suddenly going to pull these new abilities out of various bodily orifices" problem. My character will be surprised when he re-awakens the sword's spirit, but it won't be coming out of nowhere all of a sudden. The surprise comes from him not believing he's worthy of it, but that's a separate RP issue.

There's so many PrCs that may or may not exist in a given campaign setting that it just makes sense to get approval first, especially given the varying opinions of DMs everywhere as to which ones are horribly broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr Waverly 09-24-04, 12:32 PM	Its a simple question. How easy should it be to get a prestige class? My DM will be reading this too at some point. I won't bias it now by saying what I think. Please people, give me your opinions.
Fiery_Fighter_Drake 09-24-04, 12:38 PM	Personally, it should be as long as you fufill both the game AND roleplaying requirements. Example; say you were to take class of Horizonwalker. Any terrain mastery you choose should be one you have already traversed. Same goes for planar mastery. Also, some PrCs are innately hard to get, such as the Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight. So long as you can roleplay how your character got the class, it should be okay, by my opinion anyways.
CzarGarrett 09-24-04, 12:52 PM	Three guidelines: 1. Do you qualify for the PrC? 2. Does the PrC fit into the campaign world? 3. Does the DM approve it? If you qualify and it fits into the campaign world, ask the DM. If the DM says okay, then its ago.
Kittencaboodle 09-24-04, 01:19 PM	Currently a rogue I am playing has acheived her first level of Shadowdancer. However, the only reason I am able to access that prestige class is due to the fact that I joined a secret underground organization that uses the PrC. We have to find a teacher to teach us.
The Man from Uncle 09-24-04, 02:05 PM	Your DM should give you the chance to roleplay the prereqs too. Its tough sometimes if you are just doing quest after quest. Tell him way in advance and see if he can fit it in to his master plan that you meet a 'Dwarven Kinsman'
DrWorm 09-24-04, 02:10 PM	I generally, as DM, have final say in whether a PrC is available to the PCs. That being said I have rarely said no outright. Most of the time, if it is an especially exotic one, I make it part of an adventure quest to gain access to the PrC either through training or orhtwise. I work with my players, and my players in turn do not ask me for PrCs that are out of character.
Stuntman 09-24-04, 02:21 PM	Mechanically, it is as easy as having the prerequesites. It's like getting a feat. If you want Great Cleave, you need Str 13, Power Attack, Cleave and a BAB of +4. Prerequesites for PrC's are generally more difficult to get than most feats. The prereqs may include, but not limited to things like a minimum BAB, minimum ranks in certain skills, certain feats, some proficiency in spellcasting, etc. There are also some PrC's that have some role playing requirement such as joining some society or performing some task. If you meet the prereq's, then according to the rules, you can take the PrC. Now, the DM does have the final say in whether or not he allows certain PrC's or any at all in his campaign. It is best to discuss it with your DM regarding your plan for your character and if it would fit in his campaign. Some DM's are more restrictive than others with regard to PrC's. The DM must use his judgement when deciding whether or not to allow any particular one.
allenchan 09-24-04, 03:42 PM	Like everyone else has been saying, if you meet the prerequesites, then you meet the prerequesites... many PrC's dont have certain niches that an organization might have. A lot of the time as long as it fits with the character its fine by me. For example one of my PC's is going to take the Divine Prankster prc, while he doesnt have it yet, he still channels divine magic and makes jokes, so its not giant leap to the prc
Mister Mayhem 09-24-04, 05:27 PM	Prestige classes are a privelige, not a right, and as such, you should only get access to them when the DM of your particular campaign feels you deserve them. To my mind, that means dedicated roleplaying in order to demonstrate that your character has goals, ambitions and personality suited to that PRC. And it may be literally a demonstration, because it may well be that the only way you can get in touch with the organisation in question (if it is one of the many organisational PRCs) is to make them want to recruit you. So it shouldn't be easy at all. Merely meeting the mechanical pre-reqs is certainly not enough.
ImmortalBlueMage 09-24-04, 06:51 PM	I've never understood DMs who are so retentive about PrCs. Personally, I love them, I think they add great flavor to the character and to the setting. I've never dissallowed a Prestige Class and I honestly don't know that I ever will.
Lincoln Hills 09-24-04, 08:17 PM	I strongly prefer to make ANY PrC (and even some multi-classing into other base classes) require a teacher. In spite of the way the mechanic works, you don't just wake up one morning and say, "Gee, suddenly I can (use sorcery/assassinate people/shift shape/leap a tall building in a single bound.)" Not unless there's an artifact or something to blame. ;) Truly exotic skills require some kind of instruction. Aside from in-game plausibility, consider - this is one of the few times that a player will desperately want something from an NPC that cannot be as easily retrieved from that NPC's butchered, twitching body. Those of you out there who have "hack-oriented" groups understand what I'm getting at here. "Sure, I'll teach you the art of the Temple Raider. All you have to do is convince the judge to let me out of this darn cell!"
Shard of Suzail 09-24-04, 09:28 PM	Prestige classes. I like them. Although, in all my time of playing d20 i have never actually managed to qualify for one. I always seem to make characters that dont quite fit the stereotypical mold that they demand. I always have a good idea for my character, its just not the one that the game designers envisioned, sadly. I play a Cleric, i follow a neutral death god, thus i can use necromancy but be in a good aligned party. Necromancy prestige classes assume you are evil...despite the fact that neutral clerics can channel negative energy (as part of their innate class). Necromantic fighter prestige classes, like blackguard, assume you are evil and built like an outhouse, with a passion for smashing things. The Neutral, dexterity based combat character, who has a high intelligence to research ancient magics, need not apply. No cleave? Ah well... Then, to cap it all, a true priest, who specialises in undead type spells, probably needs to pick up Arcane spells. I took a level in fighter so as to use my scythe, my gods weapon of choice, which is martial. Becoming treble classed, with a few levels of xp penalty is not good in my book. I also found it nasty that i would be casting spells that didnt rely on my God. So after all that, i`m a Cleric/fighter and proud to be like that. *** The upshot of this? A good few prestige classes are hard to get into with just the entry requirements alone. Putting extra hoops in the way is frustrating and painful for players. Mostly, they will have their character research and act in the proper manner just to pick up the right "bits" that are needed to qualify. Joining a club or secret society for a mundane class is getting a bit much. My current prestige ambition is to be a contemplative. This is good...but...i need to go speak with my god or his higher minions. Is my Gm giving my time out for this? No. Thus its probably more fighter levels for me for the time being. By the time I qualify for most things, i`ll probably be epic at my rate of xp lol. Dont be too hard on players when it comes to prestige. Sometimes, it just aint easy.
Lina_Inverse 09-25-04, 02:40 AM	it depends on the PrC.most PrCs you should rp into but unless your dm is a jerk he should work it into the caimpaign.the mutliclass fixer PrCs well,there just patching the stuipidness of 3E multiclass and only an ******* would deny you those.espilly since there all crap min/max wise.
SnowbearK 09-25-04, 03:23 AM	As both a DM and a player with a lot of experience, I love prestige classes. One of the things that finally got me to switch from 2nd Edition to 3rd was Prestige Classes. That having been said, I'm a real bastard when it comes to them. Well, for multiclassing in general. My players know that if they want to multiclass into anything, there has to be an in-game reason. Your Barbarian just suddenly starts speaking arcane words and flinging magic missiles out his arse doesn't fly in my games. For general multiclassing amongst the core classes, it doesn't even take a whole lot of justification for me to accept it. "Remember that weird guy we met on the highway to Damascus, he said my character was destined for another road, and so we took the wrong turn at the fork that turned out to lead to that dragon's lair. What if he what he'd meant was class? I was thinking about multiclassing from fighter to cleric." Works for me, and we take it from there. Prestige classes on the other hand, take a bit more work. Oh, so you want to become a Loremaster? Yeah, you meet all the requirements. Next level? That's in about 10 more XP. I don't think so. Why? Because they get kewl powerz? Go away, come back when you've rubbed a few more brain cells together (note, this particular exchange has never actually happened with my players except in jest, but theoretically, it illustrates my point) There has to be an in-game reason. You don't suddenly become a duelist because you've reached 6th level and can use a rapier very well. The setting first has to support duelists -- usually not a problem, there's always someone happy to poke other people with a sword and be witty and dashing while doing it. The character must have reasonably had access to such a person -- not necessarily a live encounter, perhaps there's a famous Swashbuckler who has had tales told in every tavern from Waterdeep to the Flaeness (Zorro for instance) and the character wants to emulate their "hero" in a similar way. Then we look at the requirements. After that, there's some kind of training period involved, whether on his own or with a mentor. What it boils down to is, if you want to multiclass in my games, core classes just need a plausible explanation at the time of the level up. PrC's require at least 1 full level's notice in addition to the explanation and requirements. That gives me time to work with the player and make it a smooth addition to the campaign.
Kingside_Bishop 09-25-04, 12:08 PM	I see it as if there are two kinds of Prestige Classes: those associated with an organizaion, and those not. If a Prestige Class is associated with an organization, then the player will have to do some serious roleplaying to get into that organization (i.e. follow that organizations guidelines even though he's not a member, apprentice to a member, work for the organization, you get the idea), in addition to the statistical requirements. For these kinds of O-PrC, I try to tie in as many as possible to into my campaign world that make sense. If I decide, in the planning stages of my campaign that a O-PrC just doesn't fit in my campaign, I don't bother to design a basis for it in my world. Any player who wants that O-PrC is left out in the cold. But I usually let my PCs know about what's available to them, organization wise, and they can always ask before character generation. If a Prestige Class is not associated with an organization, but to an abstract idea, style of fighting, etc. I usually leave that to the purview of the player. As long as they demonstrate to me their dedication to that aspect of their character, they can get into that PrC, without a teacher most of the time. Unless it seriously contrasts with the game world. Either way, I like to have at least a few levels of warning and roleplaying.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 09-25-04, 12:46 PM	I've never understood DMs who are so retentive about PrCs. Personally, I love them, I think they add great flavor to the character and to the setting. I've never dissallowed a Prestige Class and I honestly don't know that I ever will. The most serious problem with a PrC is the fact that they offer some powers far beyond the norm. Many game breaking if alowed into the wrong type of game. Also PrCs are balnced with thimeslves and regular Base Classes, not with each other. So PrC mix matching can get fairly degreadeing fast. And there is always the flavor restrections would you alow a Kinght of Corr. in Darksun? Or a Wizard of High Soceity in Farun? Lots of PrCs are campagin specefic, and that's how they should stay. I don't wonna see any Aes Sedai running around Grewhawk. Edit: Unless she got there via a Use Potal Stone accident and wound up in a miror world instead of somewhere in Randland. Personaly I think that would be great adventure to help her get home.
Darrett 09-25-04, 01:33 PM	PrCs should be difficult to get, and some of them should be simply unattainable. There are PRcS which are simply unbalanced. If there's no reason why a player wouldn't want to be a PrC, then you know that it's not something you want in the campaign. I generally allow most PrCs, provided the player can explain why his character wants to become a Loremaster, for instance, and that player can find a teacher.
Omeg 09-25-04, 05:49 PM	This is basically what it all comes down to. :whatsthis: You give me an idea of what your character is, what it wants to achieve, what it's ambitions are. Then fit PrCs to build the character so that it can achieve these goals. You say your Character is a half Sun- half Drow-elf Rogue, Converted to the worship of Elistraee that ultimately wishes to get back at the Drow that mutilated and abused her? Great! Well, let's see, that'll be divine seeker, maybe a bit of an adapted temple raider, vigilante if you can bring it to me in the right way. No Evangelist for you, you're too bend for that, no assassin, shadowdancer or guild thief for you then. PrC's should help you build the character you have envisioned: A fanatical clerlic will max out divine desciple, and then perhaps take some hierophant levels because he or she wishes to start a new church. A wizard loremaster strifing to be the most powerful mage on the face of toril might suddenly decide that only Archmage will give him the power he craves, (followed by Elven High Mage :P) There are many possibilities, and generally, PcRs should indeed be chosen after discussion with your GM. Remeber, if you can get your DM enthused about where your character is going and what he's trying to achieve he'll be more inclined to change his campain to fit your character. :ayyyy!:
allenchan 09-25-04, 09:20 PM	You give me an idea of what your character is, what it wants to achieve, what it's ambitions are. Then fit PrCs to build the character so that it can achieve these goals. Though Im DMing right now, when I play this is why I normally build a character progression 1-20, then decide on a story to fit it. It helps spur my creativity, too :cool:
Omeg 09-26-04, 12:18 PM	Well, not me specifically, just your DM in general :P
darczero 09-28-04, 01:25 AM	Interesting question... First, you obviously have to consider the game mechanics. Those will give you a rough estimate of the minimum level necessary for entry. Second, if your DM requires roleplay aspects for entry into a prestige class, more power to them. Many prestige classes are based around the specific roles of organizations in a campaign world. However, if every prestige class requires an apprenticeship or a quest, then things are getting a bit steep. Some prestige classes are simply logical extensions or combinations of existing core classes. I personally love prestige classes. Nearly every character I have ever played beyond level 10 (and all beyond level 20) have at least one, if not two or more, prestige classes on them. I also (as a DM) require that any player who wishes to pass 20 levels of a core class complete 10 levels of a prestige class that fits their class and character concept.
fatal error 09-28-04, 01:38 AM	In unearthed arcana (not arcana unearthed) there is a system for making entry into prestige classes into a sort of test, where you basically have to make checks of a DC where taking ten will make it (I.E. if the class requires 8 ranks in something its a DC 18 check). In general, I allow pretty much any prestige classes, though its always nice if people tell you want they want to do so you can work it in.
Kiri Sittori 09-30-04, 09:59 AM	To ImmortalBlueMage and Lina: I'd have to absolutely disagree with the notion that DM's that regulate/disallow PrC's are "retentive," Otyugh Body Providers, or anything else of the sort. That said: All DM's should read, and take to heart, the DMG's section on prestige classes... no matter how many "splat" books come out that add to the seemingly infinite number of them that exist. PrC's really are the domain of the DM, and tools that can help a DM with world building. This means any PrC that a DM approves of, should already be a part of his setting... not that the setting needs retooled to accommodate a player's desire to use the "thirteen-thirty-seven, �bermax0rz'd, full of kewliez" build that one of the CO monkeys provided for him. Personally, I do find that a few of them can be achieved only by a personal devotion to the goal, or by a background that supports it. Duellist, weapon master, and dragon disciple come to mind immediately. Any that I decide are on this list, of course, are available to any player that qualifies mechanically. There are some I don't allow because they overlap with base classes for which I currently have information. Master samurai is an excellent example of this... blackguard, on the other hand, is safe (since I don't allow the other-alignment "paladins" on account of a slight... allergy to their flavour.) "Multiclass fix" classes... if you intend to take one of these, you might be better off talking to me about my gestalt variant rule. :) Any others? Only if the setting, and roleplaying considerations, provide for them. Loremasters? Sure. Bladesingers? Err... Champ o' Jenny + Frenzied Berserker? No way.
Thorak 09-30-04, 12:38 PM	Personally, I pass every character concept I intend to play, including the PrCs intended, past my DM before I start playing the character. Like my current Paladin. He's level 5 now, but before I started playing him, I'd already gotten DM approval to PrC him to Kensai. And he's spent the entire campaign wielding only his uncle's sword (in melee), and RPing it up. And, IMHO, this is how all PrCs should go. Get DM approval, so if he doesn't want to deal with the headaches of a Frenzied Berserker, you'll know that before you've played 3 months with your Barbarian looking forward to it. And RP the change before it happens, so you don't get that "Oh, I'm suddenly going to pull these new abilities out of various bodily orifices" problem. My character will be surprised when he re-awakens the sword's spirit, but it won't be coming out of nowhere all of a sudden. The surprise comes from him not believing he's worthy of it, but that's a separate RP issue. There's so many PrCs that may or may not exist in a given campaign setting that it just makes sense to get approval first, especially given the varying opinions of DMs everywhere as to which ones are horribly broken.