Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kirsdarke 12-04-04, 12:40 AM	As of recent, I have been accused of being a munchkin... i have a dexterity fighter, im focusing on AC, and hes level 10... his AC is 36 (assuming +2 dodge bonus, and +2 bonus from a house rule where fighting defensively is +2 ac -2 to hit.) all i have for ac is +5 dex bonus, +7 from +3 glamered mith chain chirt, +4 from +3 darkwood buckler, +2 from ring (killed an ilithid for it, yay!) +4 from class features (prestige class i made shown here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=337934) ) i bought the mith chain shirt and the buckler wwith my8th level starting cash 27000... so, am i a munchkin? note: the paladin 2 levels above the party also accuses me of munchkining... he was level 9 and he had a +5 holy greatsworrd... he siad i was given too much to start with (i went by dmg)
ShadowDragon8685 12-04-04, 12:43 AM	Smack the paladin in the head. If he's swinging +5 swords at 9th level, he has no right to call munchkin. Other than that, no. A munchkin is someone who ruins the game for the others. Sounds like you're just the same level of power as them, so no imbalance.
Realms Walker 12-04-04, 12:47 AM	I would consider you a Munchkin if you tried to play that PrC in my game on top of the other little quirks your character seems to have aquired. Good Luck in your game.
Duvanok 12-04-04, 01:25 AM	Perhaps "power gamer" would be more appropriate here. To be honest I have always thought of "munchkins" as young kids new to the game who just want a lot of cool magic stuff for their characters and who don't give a lick about roleplay. Sounds like you guys are just having fun and doing some serious power gaming. That's great. AC 36 huh? And I thought my AC 28 halfing fighter/barbarian was getting a little up there.
Board_Rider 12-04-04, 01:55 AM	I don't think you are a munchkin or powergamer. I once had a player with an AC of 40 by 10th level. Magic items were fighting style, armor and attribute bonus. I probably wouldn't allow homemade characters in my campaign but if your DM does allow it....so be it. This is a call by your DM...not your fellow gamers.
Draco Strang 12-04-04, 03:59 AM	I dunno, something about your class just doesn't ring true. It gives a whole lot of benefits, and really doesn't seem to have super-intense prerequisites. I sure wouldn't allow it in my campaigns.
Ut-Napishtim 12-04-04, 04:02 AM	<cough> Wow, that's quite a PrC. From the sounds of it though everyone else is at least on par with the crunchiness your character has, so even though you may be powergaming - they probably are too.
verdynian 12-04-04, 04:14 AM	OK, I did not read your PrC, but from what I understand, I am inclined to agree with the majority thus far . . . you are not a munchkin. You are a powergamer. The two are entirely different concepts. Unfortuneately, there are many who cannot distinguish that simple fact. You built a character based on the simple concept of staying alive. This is being a munchkin? No. Furthermore, you bought everything, or acquired it (killing the illithid), through completely legal means. You did not "inherit" it from your uncle, a former adventurer who retired but decided to give all his possessions to his favorite (and only) nephew. So, while the paladin *cough*munchkin*cough* is pounding away at the enemy forces with +5 holy greatsword as his life's blood is slowly draining from his body under the assault of his foes, you will be whittling them down yourself, safe in the knowledge that you, unlike your pious ally, will probably live to see another day. (My former english teachers would HATE that run-on sentence!)
bitnine 12-04-04, 04:18 AM	Well, even if you are a powergamer, the good news is that you aren't that good at it. When even with pushing a PrC like that onto your DM only results in an AC of 36 by 10th level... Well, if that's as bad as you get, you still fall firmly into the manageable category.
Lord_Anthrax 12-04-04, 07:10 AM	Not even close, Sonny Jim. A munchkin is, IMO, someone who plays the game in a way that others don't like. If you're playing and the others are having fun, what does it matter?
Zagan 12-04-04, 07:23 AM	in my campaign your character wouldnt be even considered power gaming :D and an Ac of 36 isnt that high its good but its not overwhelming. And that paladin of yours doesnt realy know what he's saying .... having a + 5 holy sword on level 9 is being munchkin !
The Man from Uncle 12-04-04, 07:43 AM	Though i agree with a lot of whats been said already 1) I wouldn't allow that Prestige class, but if thats your table's standard then fair enough 2) Powergaming does seem like a better descriptor than Munchkin, but that is not inherantly bad as long as it supports roleplaying and not replaces it 3) On paper you don't sound like you have an unfair advantage over the rest of your group (though i have no reason to believe that other than your single remark about the paladin) 4).....this is the important one and not been mentioned so far. For some reason having a high AC (especially if it comes with good hp and saves) is really annoying to other players and the DM. You can get to those crappy stalemates where you can't really hit and hurt the enemy, but they can't hit and hurt you either. I did second freeport trilogy, the one in 'Freetown' and at the point we were supposed to get easily overwhelmed and subdued our lone Monk (with his broken AC) lasted 12 rounds while we were all out cold in 2. He was not overly powerful but his AC just made the game unplayable from time to time. Just my experiance anyway. 36 is not tooooooo high at lvl 10.......perhaps.
kam_Islash 12-04-04, 01:00 PM	People who insult players for optimizing characters are just jealous at their ability to READ THE RULES AND USE THEM! ///
Shard of Suzail 12-04-04, 03:29 PM	Well, Shard is level ten and i`m usually looking at an AC of 20 to 24 for her when i`ve been getting her defensive spells up and running. Thirty six is somewhat excessive. Duvanok sounds about right with his 28 AC character. I can look at that and think "yup, thats effective, but not unrealistic". Anything approaching the 40's, however, is starting to get into the "magical fairyland" end of the spectrum. Methinks you are considered a munchkin in that the rest of the party, or at least a significant chunk of it, has an ac that is much much lower and that the gm has given up rolling to hit you. Reminds me of a jedi d20 character i had in my group once. He hit on anything but a one and could only be hit on a 20. Strangely, the player did once come up against someone who was on roughly equal terms to him. In that instance, he fled and left the party to die. There must be a lesson there somewhere. Still, as to the high ac character, so long as you use it responsibly and make it a benefit to the party, they`ll not complain so much, if at all. Most players are not fussed about optimization unless it is done in such a way that it affects the party in a negative way (the "look at me" scenario). When a player optimises but makes sure to wade in and protect the other characters, taking big risks equivalent to his big power, then other players are generally appreciative. Learn to use your character for the benefit of others and you`ll not be troubled with the munckin title again.
kirsdarke 12-04-04, 03:36 PM	2) Powergaming does seem like a better descriptor than Munchkin, but that is not inherantly bad as long as it supports roleplaying and not replaces it the character is built on roleplay... hes the party talker, bluffs a blizzard, all that fun stuff.
Chronomodra 12-04-04, 05:06 PM	As everyone else has said, you are probably no more a munchkin or powergamer than the rest of the group. However, I will say that your prestige class is far too overpowered by my campaign's standards, for these reasons: Prestige classes should be only slightly better (if not equal) to any of the standard core classes. They should just be more specialized. Looking at you prestige class, with a d8 hit die and 6+int skill points per level, you look most similar to a ranger at first glance. However, whereas the ranger gets an animal companion, favored enemies, a handful of spells, and a few free combat feats, you get the following: 1. +2 AC every level (assuming you put at least 12 in int and charisma, which I assume you did if you planned to take this class.) This is much like adding a free +2 enhancement to your armor every level, except it's absolutely free. What other class (prestige or otherwise) has an ability like this? (Note: if I misread and you only get as many bonuses to AC as you have bonuses to Cha and Dex, this will still last you for a decent number of levels, assuming these are your two highest abilities.) 2. Ignore light armor penalties to dex 3. +1 to +4 to all dexterity and charisma based skill checks. Half of the skills in D&D (not counting the infinite numbers of knowledge skills) are dex or charisma, and all but 4 of the skills for your class are dex or charisma based. So basically you're giving yourself a bonus to nearly every skill roll your character would ever make. 4. Evasion and precise strike (which is effectively sneak attack except without requiring flanking and forcing you to only use one weapon.) So basically you get some of the best rogue abilities in a class that has a ranger's base attack bonus and hit die. 5. Other miscellaneous bonuses to reflex saves, skill checks, AC, and deflecting arrows. So in other words, you mixed together the dancer and duelist prestige classes without taking anything away from either, making a class that's incredibly powerful. Then again, if your companions are using +5 swords, then they're just as bad. But I suppose that's the kind of campaign your DM likes to run.
Aeromus 12-04-04, 06:16 PM	The PrC is munchkin, no denying that. The party is full of munchkins. +4 and +5 items at level 9. Power gaming would be having multiple +2 and +3 items... Your AC... not that bad. Is the paladin just miffed befcause he can't hit a 36 AC with a +5 sword? Lets see, 9 for level, 4 for str (assume an 18) 5 for sword, 1 for feats = +19, he needs a 17+ on the d20 to hit you. That's why you're a munchkin to him.
UltimateReality 12-04-04, 07:56 PM	Is the paladin just miffed befcause he can't hit a 36 AC with a +5 sword? Lets see, 9 for level, 4 for str (assume an 18) 5 for sword, 1 for feats = +19, he needs a 17+ on the d20 to hit you. That's why you're a munchkin to him. Heh...I think you may have it here. However, IIRC in 3.0 the way to get around that is...Improved Critical and keen weapons! Lower the crit range. If your group goes with "crit/nat 20 means auto-hit", he'll be okay...he'll fail to confirm it of course but it will still be a hit due to the crit range. Or maybe that was some weird houseful my old group used? :confused: Now there were munchkins...we all had +4 weapons by level 9. Hack 'n slash all the way. It even came complete with the Gamer Girlfriend (tm), who sat there sullenly and did nothing, occasionally stealing from the party but hiding under the guise of being mischevious and cute. (Really she was a succubus! And I'm not talking about in the game, either. :shifty: Although in-game now she's a goblin bard. :rofl: ) Anyway, yeah. Sounds like the paladin is jealous of you -- unless he's got his own broken PrC that lets him hit you?
The Man from Uncle 12-04-04, 09:09 PM	Chronomodra, if thats the prestige class......(spits out coffee and splutters once before rereading)........dear dear me. I was just assuming that it was a little overpowered (other people read it and they seemed only mildly impressed). But dear god....a home made prestige class should be in line with standard prestige classes. That prestige class only needs 'fasting than speeding locomotive' and 'leaps the tallest towers in a single bound' before its superman. Still.....if thats your tables standard (deep breath) thats fine. I still think that a high AC (even if on paper its in balance) can be a pain in the ass for anyone nearby. We actually banned improved expertise at our table cos our tank of a fighter was pushing for ACs that a frost giant couldn't hit. kam_Islash....you are a funny little person you know that? (for some reason i get the image of an Ewok when i think of you)
trapspringer 12-04-04, 09:11 PM	You would be more able to defend yourself if you hadn't decided to use a class you made designed to improve your rogueish fighter type AC. How ever, this alone does not make you a munchkin. I beleive a munchkin is like the darkside version of a power-gamer.
ShadowRanger 12-04-04, 09:52 PM	As of recent, I have been accused of being a munchkin... i have a dexterity fighter, im focusing on AC, and hes level 10... his AC is 36 (assuming +2 dodge bonus, and +2 bonus from a house rule where fighting defensively is +2 ac -2 to hit.) all i have for ac is +5 dex bonus, +7 from +3 glamered mith chain chirt, +4 from +3 darkwood buckler, +2 from ring (killed an ilithid for it, yay!) +4 from class features (prestige class i made shown I want to go throught that AC first off. +7 from the mithral shirt, +4 from the buckler. +5 from dex(dex of 20/21 if you went towards dex with a +4 item is not unreasonable), +2 from ring (ring of portection?), +4 from class feautres (this is debatable), +2from dodge (dodge feat and what else?), +2 from fighting defensivly (he can do this to, its right in the PHB). 10+7armor+4shield+2deflection+5dex=28, you have another +2 from dodge bonuses taking it up to 30, you have another +2 from fighting defensivly, taking it up to 32, and another 4 from class features. A mage can get 18+deflection+natural armor+dex, and tack on more for fighting defensivly which reduces your chance to hit. And that is a mage. Fullplate and tower shield combo, plus items such as ring can knock your armor way up there as well. And if he has a +5 holy weapon he has no room to complain (how did he get that?)
kirsdarke 12-04-04, 10:18 PM	did i note my 10th level character has 71 hitpoints (10 con, rolled obscenely high)? i came up with the concept of a frail but fast character, who pirates (has his own ship!) and buckles your swash. and sweettalks... so for the prc, it can't be taken before level 17... take that, add on the +2 drow level adjustment, youve got yourself a little snit, then? i think its balanced... evasion, a noted complaint is first observed at epic levels... precise strike, another added complaint is first seen at 24th level... the cunning and deceitful defenses are as the duelist class ability, johnny the level 71 epic qu'el'saruk with 12 intellegence adds +1 to his ac... not +71... the paladin took his own prc...he can fuse with his mount now, gets a near identical copy of the dragon disciple, but for a solar, he gets full spellcasting advancement... grr... Fullplate and tower shield combo, plus items such as ring can knock your armor way up there as well. And if he has a +5 holy weapon he has no room to complain (how did he get that?) he does have monkey grip... the sword? his church: the church of saint michael. saint michael stopped by one time: "here, have the sword fof saint michael, orion" have it he does.
kirsdarke 12-04-04, 10:20 PM	dp
was_fired 12-05-04, 02:06 AM	With a few changes the prestige class could be balanced, but as it stands it is more munch than crunch. If it had decietful defense moved to the fifth level of the class, a minor flavor text change, it if it was altered to a deflection bonus (max 1/2 class level); it also needs the precise strike progression slowed down to 1d6 per three levels; elaborate parry also should be capped at one half the class level.
Ut-Napishtim 12-05-04, 03:35 AM	People who insult players for optimizing characters are just jealous at their ability to READ THE RULES AND USE THEM! /// Wow, I wasn't aware the player's right to design your own Prestige Class was core. I guess I have some reading up to do.
delroland 12-05-04, 09:46 AM	"And in name of The Lollipop Guild.... We wish to say your touch AC is only 20!!!!"
Aeromus 12-05-04, 02:55 PM	Anyway you look at it. They are munchkins. Where are you guys located? If it's close to me, I'll a run a game for you, so you know why you're munchkins.
The White Sorcerer 12-05-04, 05:08 PM	Munchkin, the Finnish LARPer Definition: A player who only cares about the statistics of a character and not about the character itself. By this definition, you're no munchkin.
Aeromus 12-05-04, 05:52 PM	LARP for those not in the know stans for "Live Action Roleplay" Mostly used by Vampire the Masq players, to wear all black, and gather up in a community building and "pretend" to be vampires. I'm not knocking the system, but really paper/rock/scissors isn't part of my gaming experiance...oh and my gangrel can slash you better then you can dodge cause my claws are "sharp!!!!" You PrC is munchkin, elite unblanced. The DM has unbalanced the game, and now prolly hates DMing it.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 12-06-04, 12:09 AM	note: the paladin 2 levels above the party also accuses me of munchkining... he was level 9 and he had a +5 holy greatsworrd... he siad i was given too much to start with (i went by dmg) What the the holy evenger was sold out at munchymart? According to my DMG, the holy enhancement is a +2. Thus the sword is a +7 weapon technically (+5+2) with a net worth of 98k gp. Now that munchy! You, my freind, are a fledging power gamer. Highest AC I have ever seen was my 21st level wiz, AC 60. At tenth level I have DMed for Pcs with AC 45-50ish. Actually AC 30 is about average for my party (11thish level), although I'd never allow the PrC, but then I'm not making the call. so for the prc, it can't be taken before level 17... take that, add on the +2 drow level adjustment, youve got yourself a little snit, then? i think its balanced... To qualify to become a Drow Qu'el'saruk, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Base Attack Bonus: +8. Skills: Perform 3 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks. Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Elusive Target. (compete warrior) Special: The Drow Qu'el'saruk must have his armor reforged by a master smith. Only a light armor can be reforged in this manner. (Qualifying as a "master smith" is at the discretion of the DM.) In order to preserve any magical enhancement bonus on the armor, the smith must use a spell slotl of a level equal to or higher than the total plus of the armor's enhancement bonus. (A special ability with no plus to the total enhancement bonus, such as the Glamered ability, add +1 to the bonus for this purpose only.) A fighter would have met all of these at 8th level, unless I'm missing something?
Wil Harvey 12-06-04, 12:51 AM	A fighter would have met all of these at 8th level, unless I'm missing something? I must be missing something too. He says it's only obtainable at level 17, and yet his level 10 character has abilities from the PrC according to his first post.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 03:59 AM	I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed. AC 36 is not so amazing at level 10 if that's your prime focus. Consider, you could have a +3 Ring of Deflection, +3 Amulet of Natural Armor, Mithril Plate Mail +3 and Tower Shield +3 w/a 16 Dexterity and your AC would be 38. And that's with no PrC, no size bonus, and no misc AC modifiers. In fact, no items outside of the DMG.
Aeromus 12-06-04, 05:03 AM	Gratz you having 65,000gp worth of gear at level 9 when you should just have 36,000gp. Balanced? I think not.
was_fired 12-06-04, 05:13 AM	Dragon has a point even if his math is off for wealth. Consider the Gnome: Fullplate +3, Tower Shield +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, and Ring of Deflection +2. Cost 35,000gp and with a +1 dex mod you end up with an AC of 34. Now this PrC is broken don't get me wrong, but someone who is willing to sacrifice most of their offensive power for AC can do it. With improved expertise (maxed), fighting defensively, and five ranks in tumble they get an AC of 47 and a touch AC of 27.
Joe Khol 12-06-04, 07:39 AM	Have you read the comments about your Prestige Class? Nobody even mentioned the complete lack of flavour text, especially when the obscure name cries out for some. Anyway, I don't see where the +4 AC is coming from in the PrC. With a +8 BAB requirement, you can only have two levels of it (and that is assuming you're not playing a (standard) Drow - +2 LA means you couldn't have any). Those issues aside, you're not a munchkin, just a powergamer in a powergame (judging by the +5 wielding Paladin). In that kind of environment, I'm not surprised the other players are complaining that the grass is always greener on the other side.
eudas 12-06-04, 09:32 AM	you know, i was on your side up until i went and took a look at that prc you made. throw it away, and rebuild your character using published materials only. as for your party's equipment, i think someone needs to drop a Mordenkainen's Disjunction on the middle of the party. eudas
orionm42 12-06-04, 10:35 AM	As others have noted, the value of your equipment appears to be too high.... Chain shirt: Masterwork chain shirt, $250; + glamered, $2,700; + armor bonus of +3, $9,000; mithral, $1,000 = base price of $12,950 times 2 = market price of $25,900. Buckler: Masterwork buckler, $165 + armor bonus of +3, $9,000 + darkwood, $50 = base price of $9,215 times 2 = market price of $18,430. Unless I've calculated incorrectly, the total gold for purchased items is $44,330 (you also don't have a weapon yet!!) Not sure why your DM allowed it???
orionm42 12-06-04, 11:01 AM	I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed. AC 36 is not so amazing at level 10 if that's your prime focus. Consider, you could have a +3 Ring of Deflection, +3 Amulet of Natural Armor, Mithril Plate Mail +3 and Tower Shield +3 w/a 16 Dexterity and your AC would be 38. And that's with no PrC, no size bonus, and no misc AC modifiers. In fact, no items outside of the DMG. Don't get me started on pricing all that stuff out!! :D
Mikal 12-06-04, 11:49 AM	the only problem with pricing things out is that, unless the character started out at that level, he'll usually have a higher value then the listed 'book' value. It happens all the time, sometimes a small amount higher to a whopping number higher. Could be because the book value seems to subtract gold they consider you'd have spent by then on potions, scrolls, and 'uh oh' moments, and in actuality you got lucky and didn't spend it, or some such. Who knows?
Chronomodra 12-06-04, 12:25 PM	As others have said, there was nothing in your class that said you couldn't get it until level 17, and you also said that you had class abilities from this class at level 10. So you just contradicted yourself twice. Please try justification of your prestige class' overpowredness again.
ShadowRanger 12-06-04, 12:37 PM	As others have noted, the value of your equipment appears to be too high.... Chain shirt: Masterwork chain shirt, $250; + glamered, $2,700; + armor bonus of +3, $9,000; mithral, $1,000 = base price of $12,950 times 2 = market price of $25,900. Buckler: Masterwork buckler, $165 + armor bonus of +3, $9,000 + darkwood, $50 = base price of $9,215 times 2 = market price of $18,430. Unless I've calculated incorrectly, the total gold for purchased items is $44,330 (you also don't have a weapon yet!!) Not sure why your DM allowed it??? Orion, why are you doubling it? what you call base price is the market price. A masterwork chain shirt costs 250 to buy, a +1 chain shirt costs 1250. Also for that PrC, how is it epic?
orionm42 12-06-04, 01:44 PM	Orion, why are you doubling it? what you call base price is the market price. A masterwork chain shirt costs 250 to buy, a +1 chain shirt costs 1250. Hmmmmmm...I think you are right on that. Must do some reading......
evangelion1010 12-06-04, 04:04 PM	The PrC is more than a bit unbalanced. Getting Cha and Int to AC at first level (albiet at 1/level max) AND YOU CAN WEAR ARMOR!, having 2 good saves, fighters BAB... giving +4 to 15 different skills at level 10, getting percise strike at the same rate that a rogue gains SA, while percise strike can be used with 4 attacks a round (12d6 if you get 4 attacks)... Its the duelist on steroids. Duelists get 1 stat to AC, can't wear armor, doesn't get a ton of bonuses to skills, no evasion, 1d6 less percise strike damage (the cornerstone of the duelist class, along with int to AC), and doesn't get a good will save. Any DM who let this broken class into the game in the first place shouldn't have any room to complain about powergaming. I've got a Half dragon pixie i want to play at +0 ECL, can i join your game? I realize you said you 'balanced' it, but lets see... lets make a class that requires 4 ranks in 6 skills, thats 48 points to spend, and lets add +2 bab, thats +8, and lets add 2 feats, +12, for a total of 68. Lets give this 3rd level rogue a PrC with... d12 HD (4) Figher BAB (4) 3 good saves (4) 8+int/level (6) 25 skills(5) Full SA progression (15) Uncanny dodge (6) Hide in plain sight (4) Slipery Mind (2) Evasion (3) Percise Strike (15) Alright, so we have a 10 level PrC here that gets 5d6 sneak attack, 3d6 percise strike damage, Better BAB than rogue, Better saves than Rogue, more class abilities in a shorter time than rogue, same skills and skill points Universally better than the rogue in every aspect, and it can qualify for it in 3 levels. Hell, i could have given him a lot of abilities, lets see... 6*8*2 =96. By requiring 6 ranks in 8 skills (easy for a rogue) i can do murderous things with it.
Krelios 12-06-04, 04:29 PM	Three Little Rules... 1) If your party and DM all think you're a munchkin, you probably are. 2) If you have to ask other people whether you're a munchkin, you probably are. 3) If you design your own PrC just to boost your AC when it's already much higher than it should be at your level, you definately are. So, yes. You're a munchkin. Now, the more important question (as has been brought up by other posters) is, "Does this interfere with anyone's fun?" If it doesn't, then who cares. If it is causing problems in your group, you'll need to find a compromise.
Shard of Suzail 12-06-04, 05:28 PM	He made the prestige class himself? I didnt realise that. Mercy me, that is *so* cheeky. No wonder that AC is so high. :eek:
delroland 12-06-04, 05:58 PM	As others have noted, the value of your equipment appears to be too high.... Chain shirt: Masterwork chain shirt, $250; + glamered, $2,700; + armor bonus of +3, $9,000; mithral, $1,000 = base price of $12,950 times 2 = market price of $25,900. Buckler: Masterwork buckler, $165 + armor bonus of +3, $9,000 + darkwood, $50 = base price of $9,215 times 2 = market price of $18,430. Unless I've calculated incorrectly, the total gold for purchased items is $44,330 (you also don't have a weapon yet!!) Not sure why your DM allowed it??? Erm, you have horrendously miscalculated. You don't double the base price to get the market value.
delroland 12-06-04, 06:21 PM	The problem with your PrC is that it is the same as the Duelist from the DMG, only made better, and the costs are not balanced to reflect this increase in ability. I would suggest using the Duelist PrC as written, and just change the name so that the class is appropriate to your campaign.
kirsdarke 12-07-04, 12:59 AM	You PrC is munchkin, elite unblanced. The DM has unbalanced the game, and now prolly hates DMing it. ill have you know that he is our art teacher, and we play 3 days after school IN HIS FREE TIME. we know he lvoes it and we love it. as to the game being unbalanced, it is the most balanced you will ever see... im now at making prestige classes, and thsi one is my first, and i just followed a system. note how late you qualify for it... it trequires a mojor commitment to make... in my experience, by then we have clerics pumping epic acs asnd damge... we have fighters whirlwinding a storm, barbarians cleaving the masses, sorcerors throwing all sorts of pain... its looking kinda good from my point of view...make the best version of it you can... you'll see how it compares to another character of equivalent level. maybe ill add something like dropping con to 10... it was meant for frail, nimble characters. The problem with your PrC is that it is the same as the Duelist from the DMG, only made better, and the costs are not balanced to reflect this increase in ability. I would suggest using the Duelist PrC as written, and just change the name so that the class is appropriate to your campaign. this is meant to flavored drow, _and_ supposed to be about light armor and buckler, too. the costs have been rebalanced, now gimme your thoughts. EDIT: i qualified using an experimental variant rogue... it didn't work out so i prestiged ASAP. because the class was so bad, he let me remove the drow level adjustment, so it made me actually able to _not_ die! fun stuff, neh? ======================================== ================= NOTE: i have jsut flicked over ot thre prestige class page, and the way i entered it, i didn't enter the correct skill prerequisites i agreee, that, as it was rwrittien it was inherently hame-breaking, and it would throw the game off.
kirsdarke 12-07-04, 01:01 AM	dp
Bulabase 12-07-04, 01:38 AM	+2 bonus from a house rule where fighting defensively is +2 ac -2 to hit. To me that kind of says it all. There's no need to follow the rules as written. No need to understand that the designers thought that to get a 1:1 exchange from attack to AC you should have to take a feat. Kirsdarke, as others have pointed out, your PrC and many other aspects of your character seem unbalanced. But if the above quote is genuinely reflective of your DM's approach to the rules, then your character ought to be right on the mark. To adapt an old maxim: When in Oz, do as the Munchkins do.
anders 12-07-04, 07:39 AM	I would definitly *not* allow that prC in my game. Its so horribly overpowered that my eyes hurt when I read it. As mentioned, why would anyone want to be duelist or swashbuckler if they can take that prC? Despite what people say here, I've never seen a 10lvl character with 36 ac before.. Ever! Imho 36 ac at level 10 is a game breaker = munchin.
The Man from Uncle 12-07-04, 08:34 AM	With Improved Expertise it is sadly a common day occurance. I think on our table we've encountered those dizzy hieghts twice before: a very broken monk and fairly standard fighter with a tower shield.
bitnine 12-07-04, 09:19 AM	Imho 36 ac at level 10 is a game breaker = munchin.OMG 36 IS TEH MUNCHKORIZOR! Heh, what sort of AC do you think that a defensely-focused monk could achieve with party buffs and magic items by level 10? By level 10, he could easily be in that region when supported by spells and the like. Little bit of mage armor, perhaps some barkskin, and the monk can be a pretty spiffy shield. (I'm loosely basing this off of a similarly leveled monk who was in a party in a previous game that focused on AC. We had a charger fighter, healing druid, blaster sorcerer, skill-focued rogue, and him - the defensive monk.) For example, the defensive monk could have: +6 combined ability mods (starting off with 16/14 dexterity/wisdom and raising dex at 4th/8th) +2 additional ability bonuses from two relatively cheap stat boosts, gloves of dex +2 and pariapt of wisdom +2 +2 monk bonus to AC +4 armor from mage armor (long duration standard buff) +4 natural armor from barkskin (mid duration buff, lasts for over an hour by that level) +2 deflection from ring (with 49,000 suggested character wealth, he might have a +3 ring, but the lower bonus is much cheaper at 8,000) +2 shield from a ring of force shield (8,500 - again, well in the range for this level character) +1 insight from a dusty rose ioun stone (5k, the last of the defensive items) +3 dodge bonus (possibly) to AC from fighting defensively with 5 or more ranks of tumble +5 bonus (possibly) from combat expertese +1 dodge bonus from the dodge featNow that alone is 34, or 42 with combat expertise/fighting defensively. The monk could potentially chip out for a +3 ring of protection, have a party member buff with cat's grace/owl's wisdom, be hasted (/have boots of speed), or maybe even by polymorphed into a form with a hefty natural armor bonus to break 50. When you are fighting creatures like bebeliths with their +19 to hit, that 34 means that they have a 30% chance of hitting the character who has worked so hard to be an AC monster. It does go down to 5% only if the character takes a -5 penalty to his attacks, likely sacrificing most any chance he has to hit the thing to serve as a shield or a distraction - still having to deal with grappling. That's certainly not game breaking or necessarily 'munchin'. Particularly if the character has sacrificed in order to specialize in having a high AC.
JabberWocky 12-07-04, 09:31 AM	Um...according to all my figurings, you don't qualify for that PrC as an 8th level fighter. Sorry. Other than that little breech in the rules, I'd go with the "you're a powergamer" theory. Munchkining would be me playing an anthropomorphic battletitan (Monster Manual III) at 13th level with an AC of around 58 when using +5/-5 Combat Expertise. I've had to do this and more to shut munchkins up, thusly I don't think you're a munchkin. You're a not-so-bad-but-almost-there twink. ^.-.^
delroland 12-07-04, 09:32 AM	Let's see... BAB +8? 27,000 gp, so no more than 6750 on any one item for a balanced character: Base AC 10 Full Plate +2 (+10) Tower Shield +2 (+6) Ring of Prot +1 (+1) Amulet of Natural Armor +1, or race = kobold (+1) Expertise and Improved (Greater?) Expertise for 8 (+8) 5 ranks in tumble and fight defensively (+3) Dex 13 (+1) Dodge (+1) Small Size (+1) =AC 42 versus one target a round, AC 41 versus all others. Add mithral to the full plate and steel tower shield and raise the Dex to 16, and you get 2 more points. You could also add in a +1 defending weapon and get another point. That's a not-too-unrealistic AC of 45/44. If you wanted to get crazy, you could use battle plate, mechanus plate, or mountain plate instead and squeeze out one point more! Merry :censored:ing Christmas, Cthulhu! :88E: --"Ho, Ho, Ho!"
MonkeyKing 12-07-04, 09:33 AM	So you're a munchkin... so what! If that's the way you and the rest of your group enjoy the game then just get on with it and have fun, that is after all what the game is intended for. If you post this kind of thread on these boards then you can be pretty sure that every man and his wife are going to tell you you're a powergamer and such like but what did you expect? As far as I can tell you don't need the approval of a bunch of guys on the internet to play the game the way you want and you shouldn't feel you or the rest of your group have to play to anyone else's standards. *... Oooops, I think i may have accidentally posted some constructive 'advice' which is actually relevant to the topic of the thread, time to remedy this strange occurrence...* The Man From Uncle is an hermaphrodite, and I am the King of Carrot Flowers! :dancin: *ah... nice work brain, plus bonus points for the NMH reference, good job!*
Twoswords 12-07-04, 11:44 AM	Well I am not sure exactly on what a "Munchkin" is defined as, but I have to say that that Prestige Class screams powergamer. No flaws, no drawbacks, Huge amounts of bonuses and abilities. No explanation on class, no flaire on what it is.
Armoured Priest 12-07-04, 01:15 PM	Yeah, I would agree that your homebrew PrC is too powerful (too many boons for not enough drawbacks). That having been said your AC is still within the realm of realism (esp. for a dex based AC build) for your level. I've seen higher, even within character wealth/ level and PrC limits. I am curious if your group plays 3.0 or 3.5. If you play 3.0 your AC could very easily be higher (finding a way to get shield cast on yourself, and the old version of haste gave +11 to AC by themselves. It really wasn't that hard for non-spellcasters to gain the benifits of haste and shield). If you were really munchkinny (As opposed to power gaming) you would be using rules for piece-meal armor and enchanting individual parts of your armor. (my home group don't use these rules, they are far too broken, (Oriental Adventures I think) but we still made some armor and a character build to go with it for fun. Ended up with something gross like AC 130. The armor only cost around 250,000 gp I think. Again, no we never actually used this...but it sure was funny when we did it.) Also, I'd like to point out that using Mithral automatically makes items masterwork, and as such you don't need to pay the 150gp masterwork price, its included in the price of Mithral. Also, Delroland is correct, you don't double the base price to get the market price. The 22,165 spent (22,015 actually) on those two items are well within his total character wealth limits. I am curious what he bought with the remaining 4,985. A +1 weapon of some type I would assume (could be wrong).
evangelion1010 12-07-04, 05:16 PM	as to the game being unbalanced, it is the most balanced you will ever see... im now at making prestige classes, and thsi one is my first, and i just followed a system. note how late you qualify for it... it trequires a mojor commitment to make... in my experience, by then we have clerics pumping epic acs asnd damge... we have fighters whirlwinding a storm, barbarians cleaving the masses, sorcerors throwing all sorts of pain... its looking kinda good from my point of view...make the best version of it you can... you'll see how it compares to another character of equivalent level. maybe ill add something like dropping con to 10... it was meant for frail, nimble characters. Its great that you proclaim balance, and yet advocate an arguement that the other classes in the party are too powerful, which is why you NEED this PrC. Also, making the PrC pre-reqs after making the character, knowing you only have a con of 10. If thats not powergaming and munchkinism, i don't know what is. It deffinatly weakens it, but doesn't affect your character at all. Why don't you just make it reduce your non-existant spell caster levels as well? The only worse example i can give is the item that is resricted to neutral rogues only ( normal cost of item/2.8561) - " look, the item is so resrictive, so it only makes sense that it should cost 1/3. I can't help i have a neutral rogue." As for qualifying for it late, it requires 4 feats, and an 11 in diplomacy (highest rank). Once again, a non-ecl character qualifies at level 8 if built right. (The PrC never states one must be a drow to take it). Compared to other PrC's that require as many feats, about as high skills, and give half as many benefits, i'd like you to say its balanced. I understand that we all hate critism, but when you adamently go around proclaiming balanced classes and such when everyone on the board, most posters who have played D&D 3+ years, say its not... I still want to see what you guys will do at level 15. Well, we killed the tarresque, i've already got 2 +5 holy keen brillant dancing weapons, we killed hextor last week...how do you guys feel about cleaning out the 9 hells?
kirsdarke 12-10-04, 12:33 AM	and five ranks in tumble they get an AC of 47 and a touch AC of 27. hows the tumble help? just wondering also, check back on the thread... I made a mistake on the writeup... i was partially copy and pasting for wordiness...
Bulabase 12-10-04, 12:37 AM	Five ranks in tumble increase the AC bonus from fighting defensively and the total defense action. Normally fighting defensively is -4 to hit/+2 AC. With 5 ranks of tumble it's -4 to hit/ +3 AC.
Chronomodra 12-10-04, 02:32 AM	I think I see why that PRC is so powerful now. The point system you based it on is easily breakable. For example, let's say I have the requirements of a prestige class be 8 ranks in 8 different skills (64 skill points, assuming they're class skills.) This is easily attainable by a 5th level rogue. This would give me a total of 128 points, which I could use to then buy: D12 HD- 4 BAB Fighter - 4 Saves, 3 high - 4 Skill Points 8+int - 6 Skill List 31-35 skills available- 7 Weapon/Armor Proficiencies (all but exotic) - 16 Assassin (All abilities) - 30 Blackguard (All abilities, save the overlapping sneak attack from assassin)- 21 ShadowDancer (All abilities) - 36 So just by giving myself a lot of requirements I was already going to satisfy anyway, I can get myself all the abilities of 3 prestige classes, along with the best hit dice, BAB, saves, skill points, skill list, and proficiencies. In other words, once you get above using 75 or so points worth of requirements, the system completely breaks because you can give yourself anything you want. And since your prestige class has over a hundred points of requirements, you ended up with a class similar to the one I just made up.
Kolakuba 12-15-04, 06:45 PM	That PrC is the best joke I have ever read. Hillarious........ :invasion: But seriously, no sane DM would ever allow this PrC in their games. And yes, after having read the PrC you have designed, you most probably are a munchkin.
Lanith 12-15-04, 07:34 PM	Munchkin? No, I would call you a power-gamer with a very lenient GM. I have to agree with most everyone else, that PrC is broken. (Take advantage of the situation while you can) Don Price "Is ignorance really bliss or do they just not know any better?"
Bulabase 12-16-04, 10:35 AM	I think I see why that PRC is so powerful now. The point system you based it on is easily breakable. For example, let's say I have the requirements of a prestige class be 8 ranks in 8 different skills (64 skill points, assuming they're class skills.) This is easily attainable by a 5th level rogue. This would give me a total of 128 points, which I could use to then buy: D12 HD- 4 BAB Fighter - 4 Saves, 3 high - 4 Skill Points 8+int - 6 Skill List 31-35 skills available- 7 Weapon/Armor Proficiencies (all but exotic) - 16 Assassin (All abilities) - 30 Blackguard (All abilities, save the overlapping sneak attack from assassin)- 21 ShadowDancer (All abilities) - 36 So just by giving myself a lot of requirements I was already going to satisfy anyway, I can get myself all the abilities of 3 prestige classes, along with the best hit dice, BAB, saves, skill points, skill list, and proficiencies. In other words, once you get above using 75 or so points worth of requirements, the system completely breaks because you can give yourself anything you want. And since your prestige class has over a hundred points of requirements, you ended up with a class similar to the one I just made up. Chronomodra, forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand what you are doing here. Is this a formula for making PrCs? I have never made one, but I am curious as to what is going on here.
Arbitrary Aardvark 12-16-04, 10:53 AM	the only problem with pricing things out is that, unless the character started out at that level, he'll usually have a higher value then the listed 'book' value. It happens all the time, sometimes a small amount higher to a whopping number higher. Could be because the book value seems to subtract gold they consider you'd have spent by then on potions, scrolls, and 'uh oh' moments, and in actuality you got lucky and didn't spend it, or some such. Who knows? On the other hand, unless you have a very liberal DM (like me) who allows you to trade magic items at close to list cost, and who allows commishioning of custom items, a character with, say 40,000 gp of carefully chosen magic items will have better overall magic than one with 60,000, or sometimes even 80,000, of ones acquired during adventuring. For example, when buying defensive items, its best to even out the +s. It's more cost effective to buy +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection (at low level at least, where you don't need other rings), +1 armor, +1 shield, which costs a total of 8,000gp over the base cost of the armor and shield, than a +2 armor and +2 shield (16,000).
Shard of Suzail 12-16-04, 01:21 PM	A good point, aardvark. I never saw the need to sit down with my character and see what stacked with what and how i could maximise it out. As far as i`m concerned, if i`ve got a ring, some armour and a weapon that are magical, then thats about all i`m going to worry about. Some of my colleagues have done the thing where they stacked bracers and rings as well as necklaces etc etc. I just find that`s all too much fuss and a bit wierd. In the end, that comes down to being a good indication of the two sorts of player, regarding min maxers and roleplayers. They get an effective character in a points sense, but i feel that they lose out in options. I change my stuff and my weapons a lot, and even my character fighting style on occasion. The slack i have makes room for movement and gives freedom, which i enjoy. Heck, i`ve carried weapons on the grounds that they had a cool purple light effect that impressed the commoners. Style sometimes triumphs over substance. :cool:
Addi83 12-16-04, 02:14 PM	Your PRC is ridiculously overpowered. It's crazy. You are definitely a powergamer, if not a flat out munchkin. Get an armor that has no max. dex., and also get to add your int. and charisma to your dex for armor purposes. And +1 AC per level of the PRC when you fight defensively, which you do all the time since the penalty for that has been decreased. Do I really have to tell you that this is just way out there?
danielinthewolvesden 12-16-04, 03:13 PM	Well, outside that home-brewed PrC, you're just a Powergamer. And- there's nothing wrong with being a powergamer. But that PrC is :censored: :noway: and thus I think it slides you over the edge into munchkindom. Mind you, it seems like that campaign is Power heavy, and thus there may be extenuating circumstances, but even so; you're -AT BEST- right on that ragged edge.