Acheiving Victory when Outnumbered, and Outmatched [Archive] - Wizards Community

Acheiving Victory when Outnumbered, and Outmatched [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ambli Ironcutter
09-25-04, 04:14 PM Here is the situation. In the game I am currently playing, My characters hometown is in negotiations with the neighbouring goblins. The problem is the number of goblins present outnumber the population of the villiage, and most of them are 2nd or 3rd level. There is one General of about 6th level. There are 5 PCs of average 4th level, and about 4 NPC rangers of 2nd level and above. So currently it looks like the odds are 2 to one in favour of the goblins. I am expecting these negotiations to go horribly wrong, so I am trying to prepare a contingency plan for if they do go wrong.

The key (N)PCs at the moment are

4th lvl Sorcerer - me
4th lvl Fighter
Monsterous progression Troll
Human rogue/werewolf,
Human ranger/werewolf - NPC

Two PCs yet to be introduced are
4th lvl dwarf fighter
2nd lvl drow ranger. (No, he does not use Scimitars(but he is CG))

The fact we have two werewolves on our side helps, but I am not sure if it is enough.

What I want to know is what would likely be the best strategy to use in order to come out of this problem with a minimum of casualties. It may turn out that as a result of my own actions, the village will be wiped out....

What I've come up with so far is that the fighter and I take on the General while the others take on the rest.

Does anyone have any ideas on what we could do?

Isn't it annoying to be responsible for the destruction of everything you've ever cared for? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Oh well.. Goblins, BRING IT ON!! :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
HamHam
09-25-04, 04:32 PM First of all, no thyself and thine enemy. This is the first paradigm of warfare.

Second, fight on your terms, choose the place and time of combat. In this way, the enemy can be defeated even before the battle begins.

Thus, one must consider the terrain available to him, and the disposition of forces on both sides.

At best, you should strive to achieve divisions amongst the enemy and achieve realtive numerical supperiority in these instances. If that fails, create a choke-point to restrict their use of their numerical supperiority.

The two werewolves should be a major asset as well. For one thing, do they have enough silver weapons to equip the whole army? What you should do with them is create a force who's organization approaches perfection in the shape of formlessness. If you are formless and can become so at will, and the enemy is organized, you can strike without fear of retaliation. Basically, have the werewolves start ghosting small groups of the goblins to cut their numbers down.
Nedlum
09-25-04, 04:54 PM I'd say the first thing to do is plan for the negotiations. As the forceful Sorcerer who would presumably be the chief negotiator, and more importantly the only spell caster, the brunt of this therefore falls on you. Goblins, in my experience, are rarely known for bravery, so use this to your advantage. I'd discuss with the DM uses of spells (especially Prestigation) that might make you, the rest of your party, and perhaps an "Honor Guard" of level one warriors in shining armor (really salvaged junk, prestigated into brilliance) as proud and strong and resolute and terrifying as possible. Give every impression that your village will not be worth the taking. Ignore Machiavelli: here, the battle unfought is a battle won, or at least postponed to your advantage.

If the negotiaons break down violently, your tactic should work to keep you alive for a while, but at that point, you've still lost. The general may die, but it seems unlikely that you will survive. And the remaining goblins will still sweep into the city like a tidal wave into Death Valley.

A better hope is that they let you return to the village, and invade the next day. Ready light defences as HamHam suggests. Meanwhile, find some safe harbor for the villagers. Caves in the mountains, islands in the swamp, mystic glades to benevolent gods where goblins dare not tread. As you well know, if no treaty is reached, the village will fall barring sudden aid from the High King or the village's patron god. Saving the people is the priority. Let them torch the houses, but if no life is lost the town can be rebuilt once the goblins are driven out. From there, you call for help, raid goblin scouting parties. And pray.

It sounds like you're in a bad way. But don't worry; these things have a tendancy to turn around in the darkest hour. I wish you luck.
HamHam
09-25-04, 05:43 PM Intrigue is also a good way to go. Do the goblins have other enemies? If so, manufacture a convenient attack by one of them to get their attention away from you. Does the general have a clear succesor? If not, having him die in his sleep might shake things up a bit.
Nifftin
09-25-04, 05:49 PM Well, I would prepare the meeting place as much as possible. A trap or two that can be released at will (like a swinging log, a sturdy pit cover, anything!). A werewolf or two in the tree tops unseen could help a little too...

Since I don't know much about 3ed I can't be much help on what you can prepare for your spells. I would suggest though that you take sleep. Also, and illusion spells mention above that can make you look more menacing.

If you could bring a few militia men that would help too. Get a few brave souls that have some talent in fighting (with sword or sling/missile weapons).

Good luck to ya.
HamHam
09-25-04, 05:51 PM Have two people pretend to be Druids and sneak the Werewolves in as "Animal Companions". ;)
Nifftin
09-25-04, 05:57 PM Have two people pretend to be Druids and sneak the Werewolves in as "Animal Companions". ;)

Well... maybe the goblins would need to check in order to know what a Druid is (it's not like they are running around willy-nilly in most campaigns)...
Big__Chops
09-25-04, 09:56 PM Another thought along the choke point line of thought is if there are lots of trees around the choke point have the villagers hide in the trees and drop pointy objects (read spears and javalins and large metal balls with spikes) down from the trees on the goblins. I also STRONGLY advise that you use any illusions that you have. Another idea is if you have time help the village dig a trench around the village and fill it with ANYTHING FLAMABLE. When they see the attack wave Have one of the NPC towns people with a class level shoot a flameing arrow at the flamable stuff and that should hamper the attack.
White rabbit
09-25-04, 10:55 PM The key phrase here is to fight them on your terms, not theirs. Your biggest asset here are the rangers. They know the terrain the best, so don't be afraid to ask for their advice. The DM put those NPCs at your disposal, use them.

Guerilla (sp?) tactics is what's called for here. Hit and, hit and run, hit and run. Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep this up for as long as you can to whittle down their numbers. Have the rangers and any druids if you have them befriend the animals to spy, mislead, harrass, and steal equipment. Especially any silver weapons.

If you know any illusion spells, make copious use of them. Don't bother trying to enhance any stats with magic, except for a few key personnel. If you have fly, throw spells from above. In this isntance, flaming sphere is actually better than fireball. Chase down the troops with it. If possible scry on their planning sessions.

If things become desperate, you could try infecting the populous with lycanthropy. They may not like it, but when faced with a fate worse than death, you'd be surprised at what your open to. Besides, they can always get it removed later.
RealMad
09-26-04, 01:36 AM The key phrase here is to fight them on your terms, not theirs. Your biggest asset here are the rangers. They know the terrain the best, so don't be afraid to ask for their advice. The DM put those NPCs at your disposal, use them.

Guerilla (sp?) tactics is what's called for here. Hit and, hit and run, hit and run. Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep this up for as long as you can to whittle down their numbers. Have the rangers and any druids if you have them befriend the animals to spy, mislead, harrass, and steal equipment. Especially any silver weapons.

If you know any illusion spells, make copious use of them. Don't bother trying to enhance any stats with magic, except for a few key personnel. If you have fly, throw spells from above. In this isntance, flaming sphere is actually better than fireball. Chase down the troops with it. If possible scry on their planning sessions.

If things become desperate, you could try infecting the populous with lycanthropy. They may not like it, but when faced with a fate worse than death, you'd be surprised at what your open to. Besides, they can always get it removed later.

Um, guerilla tactics do not work when the enemy knows where your base is.

Anyway, Ambli should describe the town. Some terrain can make one man defeat five so don't underestimate that. Also, if honor is not a consideration, you can assassinate the goblin leaders the moment the negotiations go bad.

Actually, I'm a big fan of these scenarios. My DM has set up dozens of these over the years and I've won maybe 35%, escaped with my life maybe 50%, and went on to glorious defeat in battle the rest of the time.

In the words of John-Rhys Davies in Return, "Certainty of death. Small chance of success.... what are we waiting for?"
Ambli Ironcutter
09-26-04, 01:55 AM Well, it seems some of you think that these negotiations are happining away from the village. Unfortunatly, this is not exactly the case, you see, the goblins are camped 3 minutes away by invitation of my character. So, there is not enough time to prepare such elaborate defenses as has been suggested. However, I have worked out the best tactic for me to use for myself. Zap with Scorching Ray, and pull back as far as possible. I should be able to wear the General down enough that he becomes an easy target for the other goblin boss. (Who I 'work' for... I plan on making a puppet ruler out of him)

There was a recent attack on the villiage that killed one of the two healers, and burned down the house of the town alchemist. In the North-eastern corner there is a walled Ranger encampment. Other than that, the towns only got 5 standing buildings. Hiding in them, and ambushing might work, but there are many Non-combatants that must avoid harm.. (eg, Sorcerers pregnant adoptive mother, cousin of party fighter, etc...)

What I plan on doing is meeting the Goblins with the town leadership, and my adventuring party. The town leader defeated a Goblin Hero 100 years before (she's an elf), and probably still has some of her magic equipment from that time. Hopefully, I can convince her to use it again.

I'm more of a combat specialist sorcerer, but I plan on branching out into some basic utility spells... (invisibility, bull's strength, haste, party troll.. (wait, how'd that get in there?))

One flaw to the whole plan. The Town's takes down a general, and now becomes a major threat to the Empire. We need to keep word from getting out... How can we stop them from escaping is another question that needs to be answered.
Big__Chops
09-26-04, 02:04 AM 5 standing buildings says to me " LARGE CAMPSITE WE NEVER LEFT" seriously in the night have the-what like 25-30-people who arent Combat ready sneak away with the help of a ranger. Have one of the lycanthropes do the negotiations so you arent in danger and tell the goblins to raze the "town" it would take you like???? 3 weeks to a month to rebuild 5 buildings. As a side note.... ARE YOU STONED??? have them camp UP YOU ARSE???? are you crazy??? That just BEGS to have the town crushed.
HamHam
09-26-04, 02:24 AM 1) You are a moron.

2) Like Big_Chops said, the population of this "village" is what, 15-30 people, at most? Just evac to somewhere less conspicious and continue from there.

3) Don't bother with the general, unless killing him will stop the army. Just stop the army, and deal with him later.
Ambli Ironcutter
09-26-04, 09:39 AM I do NOT take kindly to being insulted. There is a reason the goblins have come to the villiage. Would you rather we negotiate in THEIR territory? That just begs for an assassination attempt. You seem to be forgeting one key thing. This is our territory, so we know the area well. That and Goblin culture is established. If I were to challenge the General and win, I'd become the General. This is why I want to defeat him.

The reason the Goblins want the land the village is on is because it blocks the only path up the mountain. I plan on proposing that the Goblins help us find a place to resettle, and then they'd be able to go on up the mountain.

Besides, I plan on taking over the Goblin Empire soon enough.

I do know that the goblins have other enemies, the problem is that we've made them our enemies as well. We were asked to raze a lychen camp, we did so. That was where they got afflicted. Fortunatly, I and another character weren't there, so we have a starting point.
HamHam
09-26-04, 01:44 PM 1) Negotiations between equals should aLWAYS be done on NEUTRAL ground.

2) Whether you're equals or not isn't important, as long as the appearance of equality is maintained.

3) You do not let an entire army show up for "negotiations".
Ambli Ironcutter
09-26-04, 01:56 PM This is not the Goblin's entire army. It's just the Generals upper staff.

We are meeting on Neutral ground. The village only controls the area within 1 mile. The Goblins are encamped about 1.5 miles from the village. We are meeting halfway between the town and the camp.

The Goblins fear my character because it is a low magic game, and I have been hiding my characters true abilities. So it should not be too difficult to convince them that any attack on the village will become extra crispy.

The whole problem is that the Empire wants up the mountain that the town sits at the entrance too. I'm going to offer to lead a joint team up the mountain to chart another route.

If the worst comes, we do have hostages taken from the last invasion force. We also apparently have the statue of their greatest hero, (Flesh to Stone victim) in the house of the town leader. We can always give him back, piece by piece. We are not in as bad a position as some of you seem to think we are, and I guess that is partially my fault for not explaining the situation in further detail.
Big__Chops
09-26-04, 02:07 PM if you are in as good of a position as you say you are (i don't know im not in the game) but why bother to negotiate. If they aren't aware of your true power then Show them and make them tremble in fear! After that the only thing you should negotiate is their surrender. Don't be evil(unless thats your alignment) about it but leave them with NO DOUBT that you are ABLE to crush them any time you see fit!!! Problem Solved.
Thalos
09-26-04, 02:11 PM I will point out that I am the fourth level fighter described earlier. I will also point out that my combat strategy is to 'stone-wall.'

I also have Improved Trip. Seeing as these Goblins are particularily arrogant, there is an easy way to prevent this all from going to hell..

Challenge the General to a one on one match - he wins, the goblins get the town - (which will be evacuated). Where as if I win, I become the General, and, well, the human empire gets a little more powerful. :D

Combat Expertise + Dodge + Defensive Strike + Improved Trip = you missed me, you fall down, you get conked over the head with my flail. :D

Of course, when I add Whirlwind attack to the mix... well... :D :D :D
Gedrin
09-27-04, 03:17 PM First, you are in a bad situation. You're outnumbered and the quality of enemy forces is superior. Further, you have little time to prepare for an attack and no fortifications that can't just be burned down. On top of all that, the goblins aren't specifically after loot, and they can't really be trusted anyway.

On the plus side, you've got more magic than they do, and some hefty allies in the form of werewolves and a troll. Also, you've been able to specifically identify what appears to be the sole leader of the goblins.

Since you are assuming that the negotiations will go badly, the negotiations are largely a preperation for the battle to come. The two basic options are fight and flee.

Fight: It sounds like the villagers are quality villagers but that doesn't make them good soldiers, and likely no match for experienced goblin warriors. Since you don't likely have much chance of winning a straight fight, you'll need to break the enemy some other way. If there really is just the one leader for the goblins, killing him will be a solid way to put a dent in their morale and ability to function. If there is a good chain of command, that's more problematic, but the use of charm like spells could sow the seeds of conflict in the ranks. Given the ammount of steath available to the party, it may be practical to kill the enemy commander prior to the battle.
Your only real option to make a stand is the ranger compound, which is good because it likely has food, water, and extra weapons for the villagers. In a straight fight though, many villagers will die. I'm assuming that the rangers are highly prepared people who can quickly make the compound ready for a fight. Sabotage the village houses (collapses, seed homes with oil), since they'll be lost in the fight anyway. Still, without some way to force a break in the fight, you're going to be hard pressed to survive.

Flee: If the goblins are willing to let you go, this works. If not, it doesn't. There are wounded, elderly and at least one pregnant woman who I assume won't be left behind. Even with the help of the rangers, it will be difficult to outpace the goblins.

I'd make it a point to know what the goblins want and if possible what the disposition of their command structure is. Those are the best ways I can see to get an idea of what is needed to cause the goblins to fall back.
kenlas
09-27-04, 03:30 PM two words: surprise (or insert sneak) attack!
Big__Chops
09-27-04, 07:44 PM Another option is Charm spells on the General. Also Do this on as many of the leutenants as possable. If the Leaders are on "your side" then they can get the others to work with/for you. Its also possable to use this as a means for civil war in the goblin ranks.
Ambli Ironcutter
02-24-05, 02:33 PM As it turns out, We did not need the defenses at all. The negotiations started and finished sucessfully without a hitch. The rules for the negotiations out of the Complete Adventurer helped greatly. After the first day of negotiations, the goblins changed their stance towards the villiage and 'started viewing the elves as people'. The second day went nowhere, but the goblin generals right hand man spoke with me after the negotiations and said they were ready to sign a treaty. The only problem was that the villiage leader did not want to sign. After a meeting of houses, she conceded the point, and on the third day of negotiations, the treaty was signed, and the villiage was saved. Good timing too, because a goblin soothsayer showed up just after the treaty was signed, and he took a copy back with him to discuss it with the goblin emporer. Hopefully, the treaty holds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ambli Ironcutter 09-25-04, 04:14 PM	Here is the situation. In the game I am currently playing, My characters hometown is in negotiations with the neighbouring goblins. The problem is the number of goblins present outnumber the population of the villiage, and most of them are 2nd or 3rd level. There is one General of about 6th level. There are 5 PCs of average 4th level, and about 4 NPC rangers of 2nd level and above. So currently it looks like the odds are 2 to one in favour of the goblins. I am expecting these negotiations to go horribly wrong, so I am trying to prepare a contingency plan for if they do go wrong. The key (N)PCs at the moment are 4th lvl Sorcerer - me 4th lvl Fighter Monsterous progression Troll Human rogue/werewolf, Human ranger/werewolf - NPC Two PCs yet to be introduced are 4th lvl dwarf fighter 2nd lvl drow ranger. (No, he does not use Scimitars(but he is CG)) The fact we have two werewolves on our side helps, but I am not sure if it is enough. What I want to know is what would likely be the best strategy to use in order to come out of this problem with a minimum of casualties. It may turn out that as a result of my own actions, the village will be wiped out.... What I've come up with so far is that the fighter and I take on the General while the others take on the rest. Does anyone have any ideas on what we could do? Isn't it annoying to be responsible for the destruction of everything you've ever cared for? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Oh well.. Goblins, BRING IT ON!! :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
HamHam 09-25-04, 04:32 PM	First of all, no thyself and thine enemy. This is the first paradigm of warfare. Second, fight on your terms, choose the place and time of combat. In this way, the enemy can be defeated even before the battle begins. Thus, one must consider the terrain available to him, and the disposition of forces on both sides. At best, you should strive to achieve divisions amongst the enemy and achieve realtive numerical supperiority in these instances. If that fails, create a choke-point to restrict their use of their numerical supperiority. The two werewolves should be a major asset as well. For one thing, do they have enough silver weapons to equip the whole army? What you should do with them is create a force who's organization approaches perfection in the shape of formlessness. If you are formless and can become so at will, and the enemy is organized, you can strike without fear of retaliation. Basically, have the werewolves start ghosting small groups of the goblins to cut their numbers down.
Nedlum 09-25-04, 04:54 PM	I'd say the first thing to do is plan for the negotiations. As the forceful Sorcerer who would presumably be the chief negotiator, and more importantly the only spell caster, the brunt of this therefore falls on you. Goblins, in my experience, are rarely known for bravery, so use this to your advantage. I'd discuss with the DM uses of spells (especially Prestigation) that might make you, the rest of your party, and perhaps an "Honor Guard" of level one warriors in shining armor (really salvaged junk, prestigated into brilliance) as proud and strong and resolute and terrifying as possible. Give every impression that your village will not be worth the taking. Ignore Machiavelli: here, the battle unfought is a battle won, or at least postponed to your advantage. If the negotiaons break down violently, your tactic should work to keep you alive for a while, but at that point, you've still lost. The general may die, but it seems unlikely that you will survive. And the remaining goblins will still sweep into the city like a tidal wave into Death Valley. A better hope is that they let you return to the village, and invade the next day. Ready light defences as HamHam suggests. Meanwhile, find some safe harbor for the villagers. Caves in the mountains, islands in the swamp, mystic glades to benevolent gods where goblins dare not tread. As you well know, if no treaty is reached, the village will fall barring sudden aid from the High King or the village's patron god. Saving the people is the priority. Let them torch the houses, but if no life is lost the town can be rebuilt once the goblins are driven out. From there, you call for help, raid goblin scouting parties. And pray. It sounds like you're in a bad way. But don't worry; these things have a tendancy to turn around in the darkest hour. I wish you luck.
HamHam 09-25-04, 05:43 PM	Intrigue is also a good way to go. Do the goblins have other enemies? If so, manufacture a convenient attack by one of them to get their attention away from you. Does the general have a clear succesor? If not, having him die in his sleep might shake things up a bit.
Nifftin 09-25-04, 05:49 PM	Well, I would prepare the meeting place as much as possible. A trap or two that can be released at will (like a swinging log, a sturdy pit cover, anything!). A werewolf or two in the tree tops unseen could help a little too... Since I don't know much about 3ed I can't be much help on what you can prepare for your spells. I would suggest though that you take sleep. Also, and illusion spells mention above that can make you look more menacing. If you could bring a few militia men that would help too. Get a few brave souls that have some talent in fighting (with sword or sling/missile weapons). Good luck to ya.
HamHam 09-25-04, 05:51 PM	Have two people pretend to be Druids and sneak the Werewolves in as "Animal Companions". ;)
Nifftin 09-25-04, 05:57 PM	Have two people pretend to be Druids and sneak the Werewolves in as "Animal Companions". ;) Well... maybe the goblins would need to check in order to know what a Druid is (it's not like they are running around willy-nilly in most campaigns)...
Big__Chops 09-25-04, 09:56 PM	Another thought along the choke point line of thought is if there are lots of trees around the choke point have the villagers hide in the trees and drop pointy objects (read spears and javalins and large metal balls with spikes) down from the trees on the goblins. I also STRONGLY advise that you use any illusions that you have. Another idea is if you have time help the village dig a trench around the village and fill it with ANYTHING FLAMABLE. When they see the attack wave Have one of the NPC towns people with a class level shoot a flameing arrow at the flamable stuff and that should hamper the attack.
White rabbit 09-25-04, 10:55 PM	The key phrase here is to fight them on your terms, not theirs. Your biggest asset here are the rangers. They know the terrain the best, so don't be afraid to ask for their advice. The DM put those NPCs at your disposal, use them. Guerilla (sp?) tactics is what's called for here. Hit and, hit and run, hit and run. Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep this up for as long as you can to whittle down their numbers. Have the rangers and any druids if you have them befriend the animals to spy, mislead, harrass, and steal equipment. Especially any silver weapons. If you know any illusion spells, make copious use of them. Don't bother trying to enhance any stats with magic, except for a few key personnel. If you have fly, throw spells from above. In this isntance, flaming sphere is actually better than fireball. Chase down the troops with it. If possible scry on their planning sessions. If things become desperate, you could try infecting the populous with lycanthropy. They may not like it, but when faced with a fate worse than death, you'd be surprised at what your open to. Besides, they can always get it removed later.
RealMad 09-26-04, 01:36 AM	The key phrase here is to fight them on your terms, not theirs. Your biggest asset here are the rangers. They know the terrain the best, so don't be afraid to ask for their advice. The DM put those NPCs at your disposal, use them. Guerilla (sp?) tactics is what's called for here. Hit and, hit and run, hit and run. Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep this up for as long as you can to whittle down their numbers. Have the rangers and any druids if you have them befriend the animals to spy, mislead, harrass, and steal equipment. Especially any silver weapons. If you know any illusion spells, make copious use of them. Don't bother trying to enhance any stats with magic, except for a few key personnel. If you have fly, throw spells from above. In this isntance, flaming sphere is actually better than fireball. Chase down the troops with it. If possible scry on their planning sessions. If things become desperate, you could try infecting the populous with lycanthropy. They may not like it, but when faced with a fate worse than death, you'd be surprised at what your open to. Besides, they can always get it removed later. Um, guerilla tactics do not work when the enemy knows where your base is. Anyway, Ambli should describe the town. Some terrain can make one man defeat five so don't underestimate that. Also, if honor is not a consideration, you can assassinate the goblin leaders the moment the negotiations go bad. Actually, I'm a big fan of these scenarios. My DM has set up dozens of these over the years and I've won maybe 35%, escaped with my life maybe 50%, and went on to glorious defeat in battle the rest of the time. In the words of John-Rhys Davies in Return, "Certainty of death. Small chance of success.... what are we waiting for?"
Ambli Ironcutter 09-26-04, 01:55 AM	Well, it seems some of you think that these negotiations are happining away from the village. Unfortunatly, this is not exactly the case, you see, the goblins are camped 3 minutes away by invitation of my character. So, there is not enough time to prepare such elaborate defenses as has been suggested. However, I have worked out the best tactic for me to use for myself. Zap with Scorching Ray, and pull back as far as possible. I should be able to wear the General down enough that he becomes an easy target for the other goblin boss. (Who I 'work' for... I plan on making a puppet ruler out of him) There was a recent attack on the villiage that killed one of the two healers, and burned down the house of the town alchemist. In the North-eastern corner there is a walled Ranger encampment. Other than that, the towns only got 5 standing buildings. Hiding in them, and ambushing might work, but there are many Non-combatants that must avoid harm.. (eg, Sorcerers pregnant adoptive mother, cousin of party fighter, etc...) What I plan on doing is meeting the Goblins with the town leadership, and my adventuring party. The town leader defeated a Goblin Hero 100 years before (she's an elf), and probably still has some of her magic equipment from that time. Hopefully, I can convince her to use it again. I'm more of a combat specialist sorcerer, but I plan on branching out into some basic utility spells... (invisibility, bull's strength, haste, party troll.. (wait, how'd that get in there?)) One flaw to the whole plan. The Town's takes down a general, and now becomes a major threat to the Empire. We need to keep word from getting out... How can we stop them from escaping is another question that needs to be answered.
Big__Chops 09-26-04, 02:04 AM	5 standing buildings says to me " LARGE CAMPSITE WE NEVER LEFT" seriously in the night have the-what like 25-30-people who arent Combat ready sneak away with the help of a ranger. Have one of the lycanthropes do the negotiations so you arent in danger and tell the goblins to raze the "town" it would take you like???? 3 weeks to a month to rebuild 5 buildings. As a side note.... ARE YOU STONED??? have them camp UP YOU ARSE???? are you crazy??? That just BEGS to have the town crushed.
HamHam 09-26-04, 02:24 AM	1) You are a moron. 2) Like Big_Chops said, the population of this "village" is what, 15-30 people, at most? Just evac to somewhere less conspicious and continue from there. 3) Don't bother with the general, unless killing him will stop the army. Just stop the army, and deal with him later.
Ambli Ironcutter 09-26-04, 09:39 AM	I do NOT take kindly to being insulted. There is a reason the goblins have come to the villiage. Would you rather we negotiate in THEIR territory? That just begs for an assassination attempt. You seem to be forgeting one key thing. This is our territory, so we know the area well. That and Goblin culture is established. If I were to challenge the General and win, I'd become the General. This is why I want to defeat him. The reason the Goblins want the land the village is on is because it blocks the only path up the mountain. I plan on proposing that the Goblins help us find a place to resettle, and then they'd be able to go on up the mountain. Besides, I plan on taking over the Goblin Empire soon enough. I do know that the goblins have other enemies, the problem is that we've made them our enemies as well. We were asked to raze a lychen camp, we did so. That was where they got afflicted. Fortunatly, I and another character weren't there, so we have a starting point.
HamHam 09-26-04, 01:44 PM	1) Negotiations between equals should aLWAYS be done on NEUTRAL ground. 2) Whether you're equals or not isn't important, as long as the appearance of equality is maintained. 3) You do not let an entire army show up for "negotiations".
Ambli Ironcutter 09-26-04, 01:56 PM	This is not the Goblin's entire army. It's just the Generals upper staff. We are meeting on Neutral ground. The village only controls the area within 1 mile. The Goblins are encamped about 1.5 miles from the village. We are meeting halfway between the town and the camp. The Goblins fear my character because it is a low magic game, and I have been hiding my characters true abilities. So it should not be too difficult to convince them that any attack on the village will become extra crispy. The whole problem is that the Empire wants up the mountain that the town sits at the entrance too. I'm going to offer to lead a joint team up the mountain to chart another route. If the worst comes, we do have hostages taken from the last invasion force. We also apparently have the statue of their greatest hero, (Flesh to Stone victim) in the house of the town leader. We can always give him back, piece by piece. We are not in as bad a position as some of you seem to think we are, and I guess that is partially my fault for not explaining the situation in further detail.
Big__Chops 09-26-04, 02:07 PM	if you are in as good of a position as you say you are (i don't know im not in the game) but why bother to negotiate. If they aren't aware of your true power then Show them and make them tremble in fear! After that the only thing you should negotiate is their surrender. Don't be evil(unless thats your alignment) about it but leave them with NO DOUBT that you are ABLE to crush them any time you see fit!!! Problem Solved.
Thalos 09-26-04, 02:11 PM	I will point out that I am the fourth level fighter described earlier. I will also point out that my combat strategy is to 'stone-wall.' I also have Improved Trip. Seeing as these Goblins are particularily arrogant, there is an easy way to prevent this all from going to hell.. Challenge the General to a one on one match - he wins, the goblins get the town - (which will be evacuated). Where as if I win, I become the General, and, well, the human empire gets a little more powerful. :D Combat Expertise + Dodge + Defensive Strike + Improved Trip = you missed me, you fall down, you get conked over the head with my flail. :D Of course, when I add Whirlwind attack to the mix... well... :D :D :D
Gedrin 09-27-04, 03:17 PM	First, you are in a bad situation. You're outnumbered and the quality of enemy forces is superior. Further, you have little time to prepare for an attack and no fortifications that can't just be burned down. On top of all that, the goblins aren't specifically after loot, and they can't really be trusted anyway. On the plus side, you've got more magic than they do, and some hefty allies in the form of werewolves and a troll. Also, you've been able to specifically identify what appears to be the sole leader of the goblins. Since you are assuming that the negotiations will go badly, the negotiations are largely a preperation for the battle to come. The two basic options are fight and flee. Fight: It sounds like the villagers are quality villagers but that doesn't make them good soldiers, and likely no match for experienced goblin warriors. Since you don't likely have much chance of winning a straight fight, you'll need to break the enemy some other way. If there really is just the one leader for the goblins, killing him will be a solid way to put a dent in their morale and ability to function. If there is a good chain of command, that's more problematic, but the use of charm like spells could sow the seeds of conflict in the ranks. Given the ammount of steath available to the party, it may be practical to kill the enemy commander prior to the battle. Your only real option to make a stand is the ranger compound, which is good because it likely has food, water, and extra weapons for the villagers. In a straight fight though, many villagers will die. I'm assuming that the rangers are highly prepared people who can quickly make the compound ready for a fight. Sabotage the village houses (collapses, seed homes with oil), since they'll be lost in the fight anyway. Still, without some way to force a break in the fight, you're going to be hard pressed to survive. Flee: If the goblins are willing to let you go, this works. If not, it doesn't. There are wounded, elderly and at least one pregnant woman who I assume won't be left behind. Even with the help of the rangers, it will be difficult to outpace the goblins. I'd make it a point to know what the goblins want and if possible what the disposition of their command structure is. Those are the best ways I can see to get an idea of what is needed to cause the goblins to fall back.
kenlas 09-27-04, 03:30 PM	two words: surprise (or insert sneak) attack!
Big__Chops 09-27-04, 07:44 PM	Another option is Charm spells on the General. Also Do this on as many of the leutenants as possable. If the Leaders are on "your side" then they can get the others to work with/for you. Its also possable to use this as a means for civil war in the goblin ranks.
Ambli Ironcutter 02-24-05, 02:33 PM	As it turns out, We did not need the defenses at all. The negotiations started and finished sucessfully without a hitch. The rules for the negotiations out of the Complete Adventurer helped greatly. After the first day of negotiations, the goblins changed their stance towards the villiage and 'started viewing the elves as people'. The second day went nowhere, but the goblin generals right hand man spoke with me after the negotiations and said they were ready to sign a treaty. The only problem was that the villiage leader did not want to sign. After a meeting of houses, she conceded the point, and on the third day of negotiations, the treaty was signed, and the villiage was saved. Good timing too, because a goblin soothsayer showed up just after the treaty was signed, and he took a copy back with him to discuss it with the goblin emporer. Hopefully, the treaty holds.