Action Point Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Action Point Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadrak
07-27-06, 09:42 AM My DM has recently introduced Action Points to our D&D game.

I know you can only use 1 Action Point in a round but could you use an Action Point to boost your Initiative and then another to boost a roll on your go?

I think you could as your Initiative is before the first round but my DM wasn't sure so I said I'd ask here for advice.

Thanks
Nom
07-27-06, 09:50 AM I'd allow it, on the assumption that your round generally resets at the start of your turn, and thus you are spending them one point "before combat" and one on "turn 1".
razorboy
07-27-06, 09:50 AM You are correct. Initiative takes place before the first round, and is not considered a part of the first round or combat (which technically does not begin until Initiative is rolled); so Initiative roll being a d20 roll can indeed be boosted with an action point, and then you can use another during the first round of combat.
Sereno
07-27-06, 11:11 AM Technically, and according to RAW, I don't think initiative is a valid use for an Action Point because you've got to decide to use one "before the DM reveals the success or failure" and initiative isn't succeed or fail.

That said, in my campaign, in addition to the specialized uses* for an Action Point, I DO allow my players to use one to boost *any* d20 roll at *any* time (but, only one per combat round). And, since initiative is a d20, they are certainly allowed to use one.

It's helped in combat to allow the rogue to go first and get sneak attacks....

It's not been the least bit unbalancing, as far as I can tell.

* from the ECS: activating a class feature, hastening an infusion or stabilizing.
jwhitson
07-27-06, 11:25 AM The actual rule is that you can only use an action point on a d20 roll before the dm announces succes or failure, and various other things (like using an action point to stabalize yourself if you are in negative hp). I believe it actually says you cannot use this on initiative rolls. That being said, I think that rule is a bunch of crap. If a player wants to use the action point now for a better initiative instead of a better chance to hit some other time then who cares? In my games I always allow the players to use an action point on initiative rolls.
Millennium
07-27-06, 01:46 PM Quick question, just to make sure we're on the same page: are you talking about Eberron's Action Points or Unearthed Arcana's Action Points? I'm not all that familiar with Eberron's version, but UA's version only lets you spend one per round.
Sereno
07-27-06, 02:03 PM Quick question, just to make sure we're on the same page: are you talking about Eberron's Action Points or Unearthed Arcana's Action Points? I'm not all that familiar with Eberron's version, but UA's version only lets you spend one per round.

I was talking about Eberron action points.

In general, Eberron action points can only be used 1-per-round, as well.

The only exception I can think of is a feat that takes 2 AP to "power"; Action Surge: 2 AP = 1 extra action in a round.
Kradlo
07-27-06, 05:38 PM Quick question, just to make sure we're on the same page: are you talking about Eberron's Action Points or Unearthed Arcana's Action Points? I'm not all that familiar with Eberron's version, but UA's version only lets you spend one per round.
That's a very good question, as the two use different rules for how action points may be used.

The original Unearthed Arcana version allows an action point to be spent to add 1d6 to the result of any d20 roll (this would include initiative). The Eberron definition states that an action point can be spent to alter the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw.

Unearthed Arcana also has a more extensive list of uses for action points. I rather like the idea, but haven't used them extensively, so I can't judge if they are subject to abuse. So far, they've worked out well. One clever player, whose character had been reduced to 0 hit points, used the option of spending an action point for temporary use of a feat for one round. He chose Toughness, thus gaining 3 hit points. This put him into positive hit points, and so was able to use the round to flee from his attackers. I thought that was a very creative use for the ability and the feat.
Wyrmul
07-27-06, 06:12 PM Action dice are a standard in Spycraft and Stargate and in my experience they are not unbalancing as long as you are careful how you give them out. Also I have a pool of them when I DM to use in determining critical failures. It is a nice dramatic feature, but should not become the focus of the game.
Nom
07-27-06, 08:19 PM The actual rule is that you can only use an action point on a d20 roll before the dm announces succes or failure, and various other things (like using an action point to stabalize yourself if you are in negative hp). I believe it actually says you cannot use this on initiative rolls.You've misstated the ECS rules (I haven't seen the UA ones so you might be correct for them).

The ECS rules do not say that you cannot use AP on initiative.

The ECS rules do not actually say 'before success or failure', they say 'before the DM announces the results' (success or failure is given as an example). Thus, you could use AP on an initiative check, but could not do so once you've seen what other characters (and the monsters) rolled.

The idea is that AP can boost a bad roll to a moderate one, or a good roll to an excellent one, but cannot retrospectively change a result. Thus, you apply XP after seeing the value of your d20 roll but before (officially) comparing that roll to "the world".
Sereno
07-28-06, 09:03 AM You've misstated the ECS rules (I haven't seen the UA ones so you might be correct for them).

The ECS rules do not say that you cannot use AP on initiative.

The ECS rules do not actually say 'before success or failure', they say 'before the DM announces the results' (success or failure is given as an example). Thus, you could use AP on an initiative check, but could not do so once you've seen what other characters (and the monsters) rolled.

Though it does not specificially "not initiative," it does say:

You can spend an action point to improve the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw. Certain feats and prestige class features allow you to spend action points in different ways, but this is their most basic use.

Regardless of the rules, however, I don't think it does any harm whatsoever to allow AP for initiative.
Nom
07-28-06, 10:07 AM "An initiative check is a Dexterity check" (PH pg 136).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadrak 07-27-06, 09:42 AM	My DM has recently introduced Action Points to our D&D game. I know you can only use 1 Action Point in a round but could you use an Action Point to boost your Initiative and then another to boost a roll on your go? I think you could as your Initiative is before the first round but my DM wasn't sure so I said I'd ask here for advice. Thanks
Nom 07-27-06, 09:50 AM	I'd allow it, on the assumption that your round generally resets at the start of your turn, and thus you are spending them one point "before combat" and one on "turn 1".
razorboy 07-27-06, 09:50 AM	You are correct. Initiative takes place before the first round, and is not considered a part of the first round or combat (which technically does not begin until Initiative is rolled); so Initiative roll being a d20 roll can indeed be boosted with an action point, and then you can use another during the first round of combat.
Sereno 07-27-06, 11:11 AM	Technically, and according to RAW, I don't think initiative is a valid use for an Action Point because you've got to decide to use one "before the DM reveals the success or failure" and initiative isn't succeed or fail. That said, in my campaign, in addition to the specialized uses* for an Action Point, I DO allow my players to use one to boost any d20 roll at any time (but, only one per combat round). And, since initiative is a d20, they are certainly allowed to use one. It's helped in combat to allow the rogue to go first and get sneak attacks.... It's not been the least bit unbalancing, as far as I can tell. * from the ECS: activating a class feature, hastening an infusion or stabilizing.
jwhitson 07-27-06, 11:25 AM	The actual rule is that you can only use an action point on a d20 roll before the dm announces succes or failure, and various other things (like using an action point to stabalize yourself if you are in negative hp). I believe it actually says you cannot use this on initiative rolls. That being said, I think that rule is a bunch of crap. If a player wants to use the action point now for a better initiative instead of a better chance to hit some other time then who cares? In my games I always allow the players to use an action point on initiative rolls.
Millennium 07-27-06, 01:46 PM	Quick question, just to make sure we're on the same page: are you talking about Eberron's Action Points or Unearthed Arcana's Action Points? I'm not all that familiar with Eberron's version, but UA's version only lets you spend one per round.
Sereno 07-27-06, 02:03 PM	Quick question, just to make sure we're on the same page: are you talking about Eberron's Action Points or Unearthed Arcana's Action Points? I'm not all that familiar with Eberron's version, but UA's version only lets you spend one per round. I was talking about Eberron action points. In general, Eberron action points can only be used 1-per-round, as well. The only exception I can think of is a feat that takes 2 AP to "power"; Action Surge: 2 AP = 1 extra action in a round.
Kradlo 07-27-06, 05:38 PM	Quick question, just to make sure we're on the same page: are you talking about Eberron's Action Points or Unearthed Arcana's Action Points? I'm not all that familiar with Eberron's version, but UA's version only lets you spend one per round. That's a very good question, as the two use different rules for how action points may be used. The original Unearthed Arcana version allows an action point to be spent to add 1d6 to the result of any d20 roll (this would include initiative). The Eberron definition states that an action point can be spent to alter the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw. Unearthed Arcana also has a more extensive list of uses for action points. I rather like the idea, but haven't used them extensively, so I can't judge if they are subject to abuse. So far, they've worked out well. One clever player, whose character had been reduced to 0 hit points, used the option of spending an action point for temporary use of a feat for one round. He chose Toughness, thus gaining 3 hit points. This put him into positive hit points, and so was able to use the round to flee from his attackers. I thought that was a very creative use for the ability and the feat.
Wyrmul 07-27-06, 06:12 PM	Action dice are a standard in Spycraft and Stargate and in my experience they are not unbalancing as long as you are careful how you give them out. Also I have a pool of them when I DM to use in determining critical failures. It is a nice dramatic feature, but should not become the focus of the game.
Nom 07-27-06, 08:19 PM	The actual rule is that you can only use an action point on a d20 roll before the dm announces succes or failure, and various other things (like using an action point to stabalize yourself if you are in negative hp). I believe it actually says you cannot use this on initiative rolls.You've misstated the ECS rules (I haven't seen the UA ones so you might be correct for them). The ECS rules do not say that you cannot use AP on initiative. The ECS rules do not actually say 'before success or failure', they say 'before the DM announces the results' (success or failure is given as an example). Thus, you could use AP on an initiative check, but could not do so once you've seen what other characters (and the monsters) rolled. The idea is that AP can boost a bad roll to a moderate one, or a good roll to an excellent one, but cannot retrospectively change a result. Thus, you apply XP after seeing the value of your d20 roll but before (officially) comparing that roll to "the world".
Sereno 07-28-06, 09:03 AM	You've misstated the ECS rules (I haven't seen the UA ones so you might be correct for them). The ECS rules do not say that you cannot use AP on initiative. The ECS rules do not actually say 'before success or failure', they say 'before the DM announces the results' (success or failure is given as an example). Thus, you could use AP on an initiative check, but could not do so once you've seen what other characters (and the monsters) rolled. Though it does not specificially "not initiative," it does say: You can spend an action point to improve the result of an attack roll, a skill check, an ability check, a level check, or a saving throw. Certain feats and prestige class features allow you to spend action points in different ways, but this is their most basic use. Regardless of the rules, however, I don't think it does any harm whatsoever to allow AP for initiative.
Nom 07-28-06, 10:07 AM	"An initiative check is a Dexterity check" (PH pg 136).