Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loaba 05-08-07, 12:52 AM	What are the most important attributes that an adventuring Wizard should have? What stats are most important (INT being the obvious one)? What are some good Feats to have? In short, starting at 1st level, how do you keep your 4hp caster alive and how do you make sure he contributes past his few number of spells per day? Stats (rolled): 16, 15, 12, 11, 9, 8 Note 1: Leadership at 6th level is a must for this character and his companions Note 2: I'm the quentisential Fighter-type, casters are quite simply foriegn to me. I'm therefore asking for meaningful advice. What would you do?
Magrus 05-08-07, 12:58 AM	Leadership is a must have for your WIZARD? Hmm. If you want Leadership, Charisma just became probably your 2nd or 3rd most important attribute right after Intelligence being first and Dexterity being 2nd or 3rd. I would suggest switching from Wizard to Sorcerer personally if you want to go the Leadership route to capitalize on your casting attribute being the bonus for your leadership score. Short of that... An adventuring wizard has different needs all depending on the party they adventure with. Give us info on the party!
Tytalus 05-08-07, 12:59 AM	Int, Con, Dex; usually in that order unless you are trying something tricky. The rest doesn't really matter. Stay in the back if you can, get a light crossbow and stay in the back.
AffableDoomwalker 05-08-07, 01:03 AM	What are the most important attributes that an adventuring Wizard should have? What stats are most important (INT being the obvious one)? What are some good Feats to have? In short, starting at 1st level, how do you keep your 4hp caster alive and how do you make sure he contributes past his few number of spells per day? Stats (rolled): 16, 15, 12, 11, 9, 8 Note: Leadership at 6th level is a must for this character and his companions Constitution. That bring you up to a bit more than 4hp, Dexterity, I guess. Plus Charisma for the Leadership. As for feats, Mind over Matter is tops (if you're playing Forgotten Realms), Luck of Heroes is the shizzle (FR again), and erm, metamagic? Your primary contribution is your arcane happyfuntime goodness, you're a smarter cookie than the rest, so picking up a few knowledge skills with your mega-happy INT can't hurt, just talk a lot and be obnoxious, and cast spells. You'll fit in just fine.
loaba 05-08-07, 01:04 AM	Leadership is the one requirement we're going with for this campaign. There will be 3 Player Characters total (we Round-Robin DM so at least one PC will be a DMPC at any given time). Because we are such a small group we thought it would be nice to make up for the missing player via 3 Cohorts. I imagine my companions will provide a Fighter-type and a Rogue-type. I am thinking of going Human, I have no idea what the other two are doing. I'm quite sure I can bump my rolls to a 28pb equivilent if I so desire (we had talked about going as high as 32pb because we are a smaller party). Note: Hmm, hadn't thought about the Sorc angle in regards to Leadership. Taking my stats into consideration that becomes an obvious choice. Human Sorcerer 1 STR: 9 (this makes me cry) DEX: 16 (this seems to be the right choice) CON: 12 (+1hp per level is good times) INT: 11 (I is more smarter then the average bare, huh?) WIS: 8 (I'm out in the wild with 5hp, I can't be that wise now can I?) CHA: 15 (Oh well, despite my deficiencies, whatever I'm doing, I look damn good doing it) Note 2: CHA is my pump stat, hence the 15 Note 2b: If I bump things up to a 28pb both points will go to STR on general principle
runestar 05-08-07, 01:21 AM	I seem to recall a feat called initiate of the faerie mysteries which lets you use your int mod instead of con for extra hp at each lv(as opposed to mind over body, which just applies at 1st lv). Dump con, then enter necropolitan ASAP. Now you get d12+int mod hp each lv...:D
AffableDoomwalker 05-08-07, 01:24 AM	I seem to recall a feat called initiate of the faerie mysteries which lets you use your int mod instead of con for extra hp at each lv(as opposed to mind over body, which just applies at 1st lv). Dump con, then enter necropolitan ASAP. Now you get d12+int mod hp each lv...:D Dump CON? Yikes. The feat sounds grand. But I think the last thing a Wizard needs to be doing is lowering his Fort Save.
loaba 05-08-07, 01:27 AM	Sorc, gentlemen, we're going Sorc! I think the stat placement is good, what about Feats? I have two to spend. Thoughts on PBR and Precise Shot?
Salla 05-08-07, 01:28 AM	Dump CON? Yikes. The feat sounds grand. But I think the last thing a Wizard needs to be doing is lowering his Fort Save. The Necropolitan becomes Undead, and thus laughs off the vast majority of Fortitude-save-requiring effects. The RP ramifications of this, however, could be unpleasant. I'd switch to a 12 DEX and a 16 CON if I were you, though. You can cast Mage Armor or Shield now, not to mention getting a Mithral Chain Shirt of Twilight later for AC. Keeping your HP up crucial.
loaba 05-08-07, 01:31 AM	I'd switch to a 12 DEX and a 16 CON if I were you, though. You can cast Mage Armor or Shield now, not to mention getting a Mithral Chain Shirt of Twilight later for AC. Keeping your HP up crucial. Yeah, seeing as how I have the suckiest hit die in the game I see your point. But damn, if I'm gonna have to resort to range weapons all the time (at early levels anyway), DEX would seem to be more important. Also, I'm never going to strap on the heavy armors, so that high DEX score becomes vitally important to maintaining some semblance of AC. Either way, it's a tough call.
ArcanaKnight 05-08-07, 01:32 AM	I would definitely take a look at the reserve feats from CM, it lets your spellcaster stay useful in battle long after his spells would have run out.
loaba 05-08-07, 01:34 AM	I would definitely take a look at the reserve feats from CM, it lets your spellcaster stay useful in battle long after his spells would have run out. Reserve Feats? CM? Uh, need more data, please.
Salla 05-08-07, 01:38 AM	Reserve Feats? CM? Uh, need more data, please. CM = Complete Mage. Reserve Feats are a class of feats that grant a spellcaster a supernatural ability (anything from breathing water to creating firebursts) provided they keep an appropriate spell prepared or available to cast ('in reserve'); for example, for the feat that creates firebursts, you'd need to keep a spell with the Fire descriptor prepared. They can greatly extend a wizard's adventuring ability, in that it gives them something to do that doesn't deplete their daily spell allotment. Here's a little dodge, so to speak ... if your DM is allowing the retraining rules from the PHBII, take Toughness, then once you get a few levels and some HP under your belt, retrain it into something else.
loaba 05-08-07, 01:43 AM	Hmm, seems that such feats don't support the Sorcerer class, still I'll have to look at that. STR: 11 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 11 WIS: 8 CHA: 15 ^28pb, switched DEX and CON. Now I have HP, but range attacks suffer (even ranged touch attacks). Much as I like the look of that, I think think the DEX is the better choice. STR: 9 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 11 WIS: 8 CHA: 15 ^The 9 still makes me cry, but the 14 CON is good times.
runestar 05-08-07, 01:49 AM	You could skip range attacks. Quite a number of key spells at lower lvs, like sleep, colour spray or grease don't use attack rolls.:) That also means passing over scorching ray in favour of other battlefield control spells like web or glitterdust, but you will live....:P
loaba 05-08-07, 01:57 AM	True, but fact remains that at lower levels I'm gonna be aiming a crossbow more often than not, and I guess I'd like to be able to do that with some authority. :D Another thought comes to mind; you think the potential is there to multi into Rogue at some point? Although if I do that I'm pretty much back to Wizard, which I don't think I want to do. Hmm, suddenly I'm seeing hawt Sorcerer/Bard action... and that makes me shudder. I don't want to wear spandex. Note: on the Sorc/Bard angle, I guess I could go with the "string" theme that way (stringed weapon/instrument)
Heahengel 05-08-07, 02:06 AM	I would recommend that you use the 16 in your Cha. You can always drop one of your level ability score increases into Con later if you want to, but your Cha is more important for both your spellcasting and cohort. Also, I'd be very tempted to get to Int 12 for the extra skill points, maybe something like: STR: 10 DEX: 12 CON: 15 INT: 12 WIS: 8 CHA: 16
loaba 05-08-07, 02:10 AM	^That's not bad, and yes skill points are as important as anything else. So focusing on CHA is a given, for the reasons you've already stated. You're placing an emphasis on CON, and obviously HP is a good thing and DEX and INT get put into the 3rd tier. And the waffling begins... STR: 10 DEX: 15 CON: 12 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 12 Hmm, that could work for a Wizard/Rogue w/ a minor in Leadership
Heahengel 05-08-07, 02:17 AM	As for feats, I would get a metamagic feat at third, probably heighten or extend. I might get one of those at first for the future, depending on how deadly I thought the campaign was going to be early. If you know that you are going with a certain style, Spell Focus is good. I'm also partial to the Complete Mage school focus feats, especially Fearsome Necromancy or Unsettling Enchantment. As a sorceror, you could start one of the Heritage feat lines, although since you have your level 6 feat filled, your feats will be tight early. Depending on how your DM and group feel about them, the sudden metamagic feats are nice. And of course, look for what PrC you are going into, and take feats for that. Also, look at the alternate class abilities (The metamagic specialist one from PHB II is a nice replacement for your familiar, and if you are concerned about hitpoints, you could get Stalwart Sorceror from Complete Mage).
Redclock_the_Untimely 05-08-07, 02:31 AM	I second putting the 16 into Cha and the 15 into Con. The extra point added to the saves for the spells you cast will outweigh the extra HP in the short and long run. When you get to level 4 and acquire second level spells, mirror image is a good choice and has saved my character more times than I care to recount. Target the spellcasters seem to be the order of the day far too often and the extra points of AC from dex won't make a bit of difference by mid levels unless you're usually fighting low CR's in high numbers. Of course this advice comes from being full attacked by a CR 10 red dragon at level 8 and only one of the six attack rolls was below 30. I was only still alive because an amulet of health +4 brought my con up to 20 and the cleric cast close wounds. 63hp - 75dmg = :weep:
AffableDoomwalker 05-08-07, 03:33 AM	Given your feat requirements and the like... I'd suggest these: Wizard: STR:8 DEX:10 (2pts) CON:12 (4pts) INT:18 (16pts) WIS:10 (2pts) CHA:12 (4pts) The idea is to build yourself up as you see fit, without lacking any of that tasty brain juice. You'll just need to mind your Ps and Qs, stay away from combat, and pray for an effective meatshield. More SP bang for your buck. Increases in DEX, or Combat Expertise might come in handy. Toughness or Mind Over Matter would be nice at 1st level as well, one or the other, or both. Sorcerer: STR:8 DEX:12 (4pts) CON:12 (4pts) INT:12 (4pts) WIS:8 CHA:18 (16pts) More able to withstand physical pain. By a margin. Damn pretty to boot. This one is a better candidate for followers and cohorts. Why not? Dim-witted warrior-types would kill to follow this guy, and will, if you play your cards right. Mind over matter doesn't apply here, and the pickings down at the skillpoint farm are slim at best, and feat selection is grim, but you've got more options concerning what the character's role would be (for example, one point in INT at level four gives you access to Combat Expertise), aside from the group's face, of course. Either way, taking either route will remove the need to build upon your primary stat (or give you a great head start in the process), and allows you to focus on improving your secondary stats. I'd choose the sorcerer, as it is a bit more balanced out, and its primary directly effects the leadership feat you're wanting, probably go for ranged combat/magical support (likely crowd control), of course, I'd be trading off freeform spellcasting for feats. C'est la vie. Hope these help, or at least inspire some sort of idea/plan/scheme of world domination.
Sareld 05-08-07, 08:29 AM	Given your stats, I would normally dump str, wis and cha.. but seeing as you need cha for your leadership feat, going sorceror is definately a good idea. However, have you considered becoming an elf? If you have the star elf race avaliable to you from FR, that would be your best bet (+2 cha). Suggested stats (star elf): STR: 9 (str dosent matter to you at all) DEX: 12 (this stat will help your AC and initiative, which is important. Get an item booster for dex ASAP.) CON: 13 (this is where your 15 went. Dont get hit! Boost this stat at level 4) INT: 8 (Dumb sorcerors are funny as hell yo play, and its not like you need the skills) WIS: 11 (Your will save is quite important, so a minus in this stat sucks) CHA: 18 (including the +2) Suggested Feats: Get improved initiative at level 1, and then proceed to boost the school that you use the most on level 3, get leadership at level 6.. and so on. Whatever fits your character. Suggested levels: Get out of the sorceror class ASAP, and into a nice PrC that gives you full casting. The sorceror class offers you nothing at all past the first level, so you can only get stronger and more flavorful by exiting it as fast as possible. Just keep in mind that youŽll want to get a caster level on each level, or else you are boned with the sorceror class.
Merestil Haye 05-08-07, 09:45 AM	I would counsel against going sorcerer, because you are a small group. Since you need to be able to maintain flexibility and cover as many bases as possible, Wizard is essential, as Sorcerers are so restricted in the spells they can cast. My instinctive dump stat for a Wizard is Str, but not too low - 8 or 9 is just fine. You really don't need to be stronger. Con is never a dump stat - even if you take Runestar's advice, you have to get to 3rd level in order to survive the transformation (a 2nd level character cannot). Getting there with a Con of less than 12 is likely to be a challenge. Wis is an alternative, you will be helped by your good Will save progression. As for feats, it depends what you have available. In one of our campaigns I'm playing a human Wizard with one level of Rogue and the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny (basically to keep up my UMD and Tumble skills without paying the double skill point cost). Consider taking Craft Wondrous Items - again this is about flexibility. With a small PC pool, you need to actively maximise your options.
runestar 05-08-07, 10:12 AM	I admit that my strategy of dumping con in preparation of entering the necropolitan template is problematic for a 1st lv wizard in that you screw yourself early on, where you have so little hp. It would work better if you started off at said lv instead. Though I suppose you could take mind over body to use int mod over con and take a toad familar(+6 hp when combined with elven wizard racial sub lv). This way, you easily start with 13+ hp at 1st lv, even with a con score of 6 or lower. Initiate of faerie mysteries takes care of the latter levels, and in a pinch, there is always false life if you ever need that extra bit of hp.:) Though your fort save is crap(very negative). Or at least until you actually enter the necropolitan template anyways...:P
Magrus 05-08-07, 11:19 AM	If your party IS small, here's what I would do: Gnome: Small size bonuses to hit and AC and +2 Con, need I say more? Wizard HP: 7 Str: 6 (-2 Gnome) Dex: 14 Con: 16 (+2 Gnome) Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 14 You're small size, your weapons are going to deal less damage now, so they are delegated to extreme backup. Stick to a Light Crossbow, and in the event you get an extra 8000 gp get yourself a dagger or light mace with an elemental enchantment on it in order to have a backup melee weapon for those times you are grappled or cornerned. It will slightly offset the damage penalty you have from your 6 Str. However, I would say this is a very minor priority as your build requires 4 good stats, you are screwing yourself here in any chance of high Str or Wis. Skills: Concentration: Max K-Arcana: Max Spellcraft: Max UMD: Max Cross Class (Use that Cha if you are pumping it.) After those maxed out, I would suggest dabbling in various Knowledge skills. Just a few ranks in each in order to have access to them. As well as a few in Decipher Script. Feats: I'm going Core only as I don't know what books you have access to. The others covered options at snagging the best from all books available already. 1st level: Extend Spell I picked Extend, as you're going to need to buff yourself. An Extended Mage Armor will help you out for the first 8 levels or so. At that point, you'll end up with buffs like Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Stoneskin and Fireshield, where you can use it on those. It's really useful. Later levels you won't want to bother with taking it in favor of your damage boosting metamagics. Also: DO NOT TAKE A FAMILIAR. It lowers your leadership ability. You'll want to be a good alignment and be generous and fair. That will boost your leadership score. Invest your gold in a small stronghold as a base, that will boost it as well. Stick to the same area as much as you can too. If you do that, you'll end up right at the max for your leadership score.
Edana 05-08-07, 12:17 PM	I'd agree that in a small party you'd normally want a wizard as they are more flexible, and that flexibility is important. However, the OP has said that all of the members are going to take the leadership feat, and so the party is going to effectively be 6 members, which should mitigate the need for flexibility. That said, I'd go with the following stats for a human sorcerer: Str 10 (2 points) Dex 14 (6 points) Con 14 (6 points) Int 12 (4 points) Wis 8 (0 points) Cha 16 (10 points) This gets you decent dex, decent con, an extra skill point, and good spell dcs/bonuses as well as the leadership bonus. Ideally you want a leadership score that will keep your cohort at the 1 level below your character point. You're even not a complete weakling ;). Since sorcerers (and all useful prestige classes for them) have good will saves you can generally afford the -1 wis modifier. Having an 18 in the primary casting stat is overrated, especially in a lower point buy game. But, as a primary caster, you definitely want to put all level-up points into your casting stat. For skills, always max Concentration, Spellcraft and Know (Arcana). You can use the last skill point per level for whatever you like, maybe a craft skill, or bluff is always handy. If you have specific requirements for a PrC that you need to meet, you can afford to sacrifice points in Know (Arcana), but make sure concentration and spellcraft stay max, as you need them for a lot of useful abilities (like casting defensively, or in a grapple, counterspelling, more info from detect magic, etc). For spells, don't over specialize. While having both fireball and lightning bolt is handy sometimes, having two spells that do essentially the same thing at the same level of power limits your options. Save or die/save or suck type spells are always nice to have (things like Color spray, sleep, glitterdust at low levels), as are spells that scale well (like magic missile). For feats, metamagics are fairly nice as a sorcerer, since you can choose to use them or not based on situation, rather than having to prepare ahead. Extend spell is nice for buffs. Most of the rest are going to be useless at low levels, but you have to look at them as an investment for the future (unless your DM allows retraining; if that's the case, get something that's handy right now and retrain later). The sudden metamagics from Complete Arcane can be nice as well. Don't overlook the archery feats though. Point blank shot and Precise shot both affect ranged touch spells and are worth looking into if you plan on taking a lot of rays. Also, at 1st level, recognize that you're a commoner with a crossbow. You don't have many spells per day, so make them count. Once you're up to 3rd-4th level or so, you should generally have enough spells to last a typical day's worth of encounters, but using a ranged weapon still might be a better option in some situations. Those would be my suggestions. Feel free to take them as you will, since I don't normally play sorcerers, but I do have some experience playing other spellcasters ;).
loaba 05-08-07, 02:14 PM	Hola folks, thanks for all the input. I'm at lunch right now so I gotta keep this brief. I'm seeing a group concensus on placing an emphasis on either CHA or INT, depending on my class choice. Also, I think I agree that as long as either score is 15 or 16 it should be fine. As much as I like having an 18, I didn't roll one and I want to respect that. I'm okay with a 2pt bump to a 28pb and so are my companions. I think that's as far as I'll go with stat manipulation. 16 15 12 12 10 8 ^ Those are numbers I've chosen to play with, the 16 and 15 are earmarked for either INT or CHA and CON (depending on racial selection). I do realize that without some creative choices I might be looking at a minor in Leadership. It's for that reason that Gnome does appeal to me (though that extra feat for being Human is always hard to part with). STR 8-2=6 DEX 12 CON 12+2=14 INT 15 WIS 10 CHA 16 ^I think it might actually be kind of cool to have a 6 STR just once in my D&D life and while INT is short now it will get better as I pump it. The 14 CON is again good times as well. But, Edana's Sorc presentation isn't bad at all... Hmm, Human Sorc or Gnome Wiz? Note: the Star Elf would be a great choice but we're not using FR stuff. Note 2: Resources are Core and just about whatever else besides the campaign-specific stuff.
Edana 05-08-07, 03:36 PM	I think either of the two will do quite well for you, so go with whatever you think will be more fun for you ;). If you go with the gnome though, I'd suggest switching the 15 to Cha and the 16 to Int and then using your 4th level ability boost to get Cha to 16. This nets you 4 more skill points at 1st level, plus you'll end up 6 points ahead for the rest of your career. You'll also have better save DC's for your spells at lower levels, where a 1 point difference makes a bigger impact. Having a lower charisma at start doesn't matter as you'll be up to the same 16 before you can get the Leadership feat at 6th anyways. And, regardless of which way you go, you should seriously consider going for a prestige class as soon as you can. Sorcerer's lose nothing (other than familiar progression) and Wizards only lose the bonus feats at every 5th level, which class abilities usually more than make up for. If you go the wizard route, I'd suggest looking at the Master Specialist PrC in Complete Mage, as they get some nice abilities depending on your specialization, and it's a class you can start far earlier than most PrC's. I believe there are some alternate class features you can trade your familiar for in the PHB2, which are probably worthwhile. (I don't have access to my books here at work, so anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :))
mlund 05-08-07, 05:59 PM	STR 8 DEX 12 CON 15 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 16 That's how your array should start out, anyway. Run a Sorcerer and simply buy any extra "Utility" spell scrolls you might need for key trouble-shooting that your normal spell selection won't cover. If you aren't married to the idea of playing a Human but dislike Gnomes, consider a Halfling for a -2 STR, +2 DEX exchange. You'll pick up any extra 2 AC and +2 to hit with Ranged Touch spell mojo. Play a Deep Halfling if you can so you can get Darkvision and no have to worry about seeing enemy targets in the dark. If you are a Human, I recommend Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as starting Feats. You'll be lobbing a lot of Lesser Orb spells at early levels - and some nice Arrows and Rays a little later, until you graduate to Orbs of Doom. - Marty Lund
loaba 05-08-07, 11:51 PM	Okay, going the Sorc route, one last question. As much as I love 'em, Half-elves got the shaft way back when. With this class selection, and the overall bent of the character (focusing on CHA), I have a chance to make that race shine about as much it possibly can. Is Half-elf worth the cost of skillpoints and a Feat? My heart says no. :weep: Note: the personality that I've selected for this character is a derivitive of the flute-playing warrior who accompanies Ghost on his mission against the invaders (in the crappy psuedo-Viking film Pathfinder). The film depicts a happy figure who plays with children and has a ready smile. He seems like a nice guy (and so he has to die, heh). That's the outlook I'm looking for, the ever ready entainer who refuses to take things too seriously.
Salla 05-08-07, 11:53 PM	Okay, going the Sorc route, one last question. As much as I love 'em, Half-elves got the shaft way back when. With this class selection, and the overall bent of the character (focusing on CHA), I have a chance to make that race shine about as much it possibly can. Is Half-elf worth the cost of skillpoints and a Feat? My heart says no. :weep: Your heart is 100 percent correct.
loaba 05-09-07, 12:02 AM	Your heart is 100 percent correct. Aye, I knew it. Now my collection of numbers needs a name. In keeping with the Pathfinder angle, I'm thinking something with a Native American tinge. Anybody know some good Inuit names, or the like? Note: I'm liking the idea of tats and a mohawk too. ;)
loaba 05-09-07, 12:42 AM	Went to www.20000-names.com/male_native_american_names.htm and found the name Ahote, which apparently is a Hopi name meaning "restless one." I kinda like that, I don't know how accurate it is, but I do like it.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-09-07, 01:05 AM	What are the most important attributes that an adventuring Wizard should have? What stats are most important (INT being the obvious one)? Dex and Con. When you have a d4 hit die, Con absolutely matters. A con of 14 will almost double your hitpoints from the measly 2.5/lev that you get off a d4. A Wiz badly needs excellent Dex, and pump skill points into Tumble. Yes, I know it's cross-class, but a wiz gets plenty of skill points and you'll thank me. One AAO can kill a Wiz outright. Remember- if you have 5 or more ranks in tumble, you get +3 AC when fighting defensively, +6 on total defence. A Wiz with some items and spells, and in Total Defence with a +6 can be almost unhittable at appropriate CR. Try tumbling into the midst of the enemy to draw their attacks while the Ranger picks them off. Wis? Meh. Cha? Dump stat. Str? Not if you have a Belt of Pockets (get one ASAP). I'd go so far as to say - when doing point buy, if you leave one of these odd then pump it at level 4, unless you have also left your Int odd, in which case increase Int at 4 and the other at 8.
loaba 05-09-07, 01:16 AM	pump skill points into Tumble. Yes, I know it's cross-class, Tumble is such a useful skill, it continues to bother me that it's always been strictly limited to Rogue-types. Any member of the adventuring class could use some Tumble ranks, problem being that you need alot of ranks to have any real chance of success. That pretty much means that while you can CC, it's usually just not worth it. If I were gonna go the Tumble route with this PC, it would only happen because we upped to a 32pb and I was subsequently able to raise my DEX accordingly (in which case I would multi into either Rogue or Scout). Note: to keep the woodsy flavor that is developing, in my mind anyway, I think I'd go with Scout over Rogue.
Puggins 05-09-07, 10:53 AM	Well, I would recommend a slightly different angle- go halfling. as for 28 point buy: Str 6 <- how's that for making you cry? Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16 Advantages: * Small size means you are better at hitting things and are harder to hit. Your Base AC is 14. Throw on mage armor and it's 18. That's not too bad. * Base to-hit with ranged attacks at 1st level is +4, again not bad for a +0 BAB character. I'd think about taking the acid reserve feat from CM, but crossbows work just fine for the first couple levels. * Get a short range teleport with verbal-only component ASAP. This gets rid of your single biggest problem with low strength- the grapple. * Good Con is important. 14 is about as good as you're going to get, realistically. Halfling even fits with your native american bit- see the halflings in Eberron, which are styled after Great Plains Native American culture in many ways.
loaba 05-09-07, 02:34 PM	The Halfling mods are nice, but the Human still seems slightly better. Dunno, need to think about it some more. I really want to leave myself a multi-class out, Human definately makes that easier. Wiz/Sct would be fun and the two work nicely together, but that means Leadership becomes a minor. If want to focus in Leadership, then Sorc is the natural choice, but what is a good class to tie into that?
Magrus 05-09-07, 02:41 PM	The Halfling mods are nice, but the Human still seems slightly better. Dunno, need to think about it some more. I really want to leave myself a multi-class out, Human definately makes that easier. Wiz/Sct would be fun and the two work nicely together, but that means Leadership becomes a minor. If want to focus in Leadership, then Sorc is the natural choice, but what is a good class to tie into that? Mixing a caster class with anything else is BAD unless you are going into a PrC or going for a gish build. You'll have leadership, so by 6th level you'll be high enough to enter into a PrC and then you'll have a cohort to act as a meatshield, right? Don't bother with multiclassing.
loaba 05-09-07, 03:15 PM	Mixing a caster class with anything else is BAD unless you are going into a PrC or going for a gish build. You'll have leadership, so by 6th level you'll be high enough to enter into a PrC and then you'll have a cohort to act as a meatshield, right? Don't bother with multiclassing. Fair enough; any suggestions for PrC's that focus on or compliment charasmatic spellcasting?
crashlogic 05-09-07, 03:29 PM	Well if you are a fighter type just going into casters, I would say Sorc is the way to do. Most of the inherent flexibility of a wizard will be lost on you (and is lost in 90% of wizard builds out there). A sorc. will let you focus on what you are familiar with: contributing in a fight. For stats, I think dex is critical after charisma, then con. Its better to not get hit at all than to work on taking a hit. A low levels you should be far away from melee, and make yourself a less inviting target for ranged weapons. As far as feats go, I am not a big fan of metamagic feats, as they use up slots for presumably better, higher level spells. So I think Point Black Shot is a good feat for what you want to do. Dodge is also a good one for buffing the ac, and Improved initiative would also be a good selection. Down the line some item creation feats might be useful, or, depending on how you play it, combat feats might help. One other suggestion, if you are serious about playing a combat orient sorc, discuss with the DM his willingness to use the various dragon books. Dragon affinity is a very good feat for a socr to take at first level.
Edana 05-09-07, 05:22 PM	While having a good dex is nice, having a good con score is going to cover up more of your weaknesses. Wizards/Sorcs have a lot of options for avoiding getting hit, so you can make up for a lower dex fairly easily, while you can never really duplicate the effect of essentially doubling your hp (even if you take max hp at every level you're still getting a 50% improvement with a 14 con). Reflex save situations also tend to be a lot less instantly lethal if you fail them, as opposed to Fort saves. HP damage can be healed, being outright dead is a bit harder to take care of ;). Obviously, if you're going ray/touch attack heavy, a higher dex is more useful and important. As far as feats go, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are always nice to have. As a human you can probably afford to have both of them. Imp. Initiative is always handy as well, since things that are incapacitated before they act are things that can never hurt you ;). Sorcerers are good for metamagics, as they give you more options for how to use your spells without taking up precious spells known slots. Silent Spell is especially nice, since most DM's like to toss a silence at casters at least once in a while. At 10th level (when a Sor gets Cone of Cold), an empowered Fireball does 52.5 average damage, while CoC does an average of 35 for the same spell slot (CoC does have a higher save DC and bigger area, but is also harder to use with allies around). Item creation feats tend to be poor choices for Sorcerers because they don't have the breadth of spells to create very many items without resorting to scrolls/wands/staves/other people to supply the necessary spells. They can be situationally good if you have specific items you want that you know you won't be able to reasonably get in any other way. I can't really speak to the draconic type feats, as I don't have those books, so I've not read them at all. For PrC's, pretty much anything that has a full casting progression is good. Archmage takes some planning to get into as a Sorcerer, but can be well worth it for the shaping and energy substitution high arcana.
loaba 05-09-07, 10:01 PM	^Been looking at spellcasting PrC's and nothing seems to appeal. As I said in the beginning of the post, I'm a Fighter at heart... I'd like to try a Gish build, but I don't think the resources are really there. Note: well, I just reread Abjurant Champion, and the thought of a Sorc/Paly combo does sort of appeal, though the stats will need some reworking (and the native american bit becomes a little awkward as well).
Magrus 05-09-07, 10:18 PM	Fair enough; any suggestions for PrC's that focus on or compliment charasmatic spellcasting? Hmm, charismatic? Not necessarily. However, you might benefit from the Eldritch Knight class if you wanted to go for an archer build, or one that focuses on rays and touch attack spells. The problem with it, is you'd need to switch to a class that grants martial weapon proficiency, and you'd lose a caster level from that. Then, the first level in the class you lose a level. That puts you enough to be a full spell level behind where you would as full Sorc, and they're one off from Wizards anyhow. What sources do you have for books? That might be something that matters. Dragon Magic has a class for sorcerers that I particularly think is nice.
loaba 05-09-07, 10:25 PM	Really, most anything is open, depending on what it does. What I'm looking for is a useful Sorc-specific PrC, and I'd definately be tempted by a pair of Fighter levels as well.
Magrus 05-09-07, 10:38 PM	A single fighter level with 6 sorcerer levels would let you enter into Eldritch Knight. That's a simple class. 10 level stretch, d6 Hit die, Full BAB progression, 1st level bonus feat, good Fort saves, 9 levels of caster progression. It would make it so you were more durable (average +1 HP per level) and could hit with say, Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow easier. If you have Races of the Dragon? Page 79, the Dracolexi Class has some intensive requirements. You need to know 3 languages, 2nd level spells known, at least 1 language based spell known, and some skill requirements including perfom, plus either Eschew Materials or Still Spell as a feat. However....d6 HD, 9/10 casting progression and an interesting way to cast spells. Special words you can add to the spell. Things that make you add effects to your spells depending on the words you know. One heals X HP on target of the spell, X being your Caster Level. Another adds temporary HP based on your class level, another widens or empowers spells. Plus, you get the "Power Word" branch of spells. It's got a different flavor, you'd be the caster that would use special words to power his spells and be a linguist. Which may fit your "Charismatic" and leadership based concept.
Edana 05-09-07, 10:47 PM	Well, if you want to go gish, abjurant champion is definitely nice. How many caster levels are you willing to sacrifice though? If you're the only arcanist in the group it's usually not a good idea to lose more than absolutely necessary. Especially as a sorcerer, since you're already a level behind in spell-level progression. If you want to have 9th level spells, you can't lose more than 2 caster levels regardless (assuming a non-epic game anyways), and even then, you're not getting them until 20th level. I suppose something else that might help knowing would be how optimized your games tend to be. It's not going to be good if you completely outclass the other players ;). If your games tend to be lower powered, there are classes that are typically considered sub-optimal that could still be fun to play, and the loss of caster levels may not be as important. On the other hand, if the game tends to be heavily optimized/powergame centric, effective choices will tend to be a lot more limited. (I'm not going to go into the role/roll play discussion, but overall game power level can make a definite difference in what can be considered a viable character.)
Magrus 05-09-07, 11:03 PM	Thats a good point there. I like the Dracolexi class because it involves both roleplaying elements, and done properly, it makes a sorcerer really useful at the cost of a feat, some skill points, and a spell known. Don't have to multiclass, and you get to pick from a list of augmentations for your spells as class abilities that don't bump the spell level up. If you make it to 10th level in the class, you can empower or widen fire spells for free. They aren't ALL useful, but for a charismatic caster with leadership, some of them have uses most blaster sorcs wouldn't bother with. If you switch between Sorc levels in between this PrC's class levels as you level, you delay some of the abilities too. If you hit the right class level on the right caster level increase, you can get a free say, Power Word: Stun or Power Word: Kill spell out of it, and at a spell level below normal (IE Stun at 7th level and Kill at 8th level). Which, can be useful for a Sorc moreso than a Wizard. That's high level though, so might not be relevant for low level campaigns.
loaba 05-09-07, 11:25 PM	Well, if you want to go gish, abjurant champion is definitely nice. Yeah, I really like this PrC. But I don't quite think I've got the mechanical resources for it. How many caster levels are you willing to sacrifice though? If you're the only arcanist in the group it's usually not a good idea to lose more than absolutely necessary. Especially as a sorcerer, since you're already a level behind in spell-level progression. If you want to have 9th level spells, you can't lose more than 2 caster levels regardless (assuming a non-epic game anyways), and even then, you're not getting them until 20th level. I'd be okay with only 8th level spells, but I will be the primary caster in the group (barring the addition of a Cohort caster). In direct answer to your question, I would prefer to lose as few caster levels as possible. I suppose something else that might help knowing would be how optimized your games tend to be. We are quite optimized, extremely so, really. That's why I'm asking for advice on casters, I've just basically ignored then up until now (there was always someone else in the party who would play one). I'm really not joking when I say I'm the typical Fighter-type, that class is my specialty. This casting thing is just totally new to me. I'm thinking that even though I like Magrus' suggestion, I don't have that book, but I do have the DMG with Eldritch Knight. ElK works with the resources that I have and it's semi-gish. I think that's probably the best way to go.
loaba 05-09-07, 11:51 PM	Okay - Eldritch Knight seems to be the best route for the adventuring caster, at least as I'm envisioning it. The d6 hit die helps out from a durability standpoint, but the cost is one Caster level. I'm cool with that. I'm also cool with the dip into Fighter. It makes sense and I'm thinking I should do it at 2nd level, just sort of get it done and out of the way. On the matter of race, I just had a minor brainstorm; what about Wild Elf? Favored class is Sorc, so that works nicely. I realize that I'll take an INT hit, but I think I could live with it. The loss of the extra feat and skill points hurts but the +2 DEX greatly appeals to me. And I've never played a Wild Elf before either. Also, Wild Elf works well with my native american bit too.
Edana 05-10-07, 11:00 AM	In general, I wouldn't recommend sacrificing any caster levels in a heavily optimized game, but if you're ok with losing the 2 levels (one from the fighter dip and one from the EK progression), it's a decent way to go. Abjurant Champion is actually pretty easy to get into, especially with you going for eldritch knight. You'll really only be sacrificing one feat and one spell known for it. You're extremely likely to have at least one Abjuration spell known, and Combat Casting is at least not useless, so it's not too much of a sacrifice. You could go something like: Sor 6/Ftr 1/EK 8/AbjC 5 and have a pretty straightforward combat caster. You'd have 18 caster levels, a BAB of 17, 6d4+8d6+6d10 (Average 77+Con, assuming Sor at 1st level). Instead of Fighter, you could go Ranger or Barbarian for the more 'nature-y' feel and still get the required weapon profs. And, if you started in either of those at first level instead of Sor, you get a boatload more skill points. (Personally, I like Barbarian. The d12 HD is super nice, the skills are decent, fast movement is great, and rage is a decent 'last resort' sort of thing. Ranger synergizes a little better with your concept though, and lets you put skill points into concentration at 1st level without using cross class ranks.) I'd still prefer human for race, it's hard to pass up the skill point and feat (you'll effectively lose 2 skill points per level off the human because of the int penalty). But neither of the prestige classes requires skills, so you can probably afford the tradeoff if it fits your concept. Basically, as long as you're getting 2 skill points per level, you can keep Spellcraft and Concentration maxed. Based on what you've said so far, I'd probably recommend taking levels like this: Rgr 1/Sor 6/EK 1/AbjC 5/EK7 You're pretty much free to do what you want with feats, you only need Combat Casting as either your 1st or 3rd level feat, and Leadership at 6th, so you've got 1 free feat out of your first 3, and the ones at levels 9+ are completely up to you. Skill-wise, you should try to keep Concentration and Spellcraft maxed, and you can use the rest of the ranger skill points to dabble in a bunch of other skills you might not otherwise have. Using the numbers you gave for stats, I'd go: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 15 and put all level points into Cha. If you go wild elf, that'll boost your dex to 14 and keep you without an Int penalty.
loaba 05-10-07, 02:23 PM	In general, I wouldn't recommend sacrificing any caster levels in a heavily optimized game, but if you're ok with losing the 2 levels (one from the fighter dip and one from the EK progression), it's a decent way to go. I'd say that 18 levels of Sorc caster progession will do just fine, I can handle that. Truth be known I'd be willing to forgo the 9th level spells altogether if the bennies are there for multiple levels of Fighter or Ranger Barbarian. Abjurant Champion is actually pretty easy to get into, especially with you going for eldritch knight. You'll really only be sacrificing one feat and one spell known for it. You're extremely likely to have at least one Abjuration spell known, and Combat Casting is at least not useless, so it's not too much of a sacrifice. ElK and AbC are vital for me, both of those PrC's are therefore a lock. Instead of Fighter, you could go Ranger or Barbarian for the more 'nature-y' feel and still get the required weapon profs. And, if you started in either of those at first level instead of Sor, you get a boatload more skill points. (Personally, I like Barbarian. The d12 HD is super nice, the skills are decent, fast movement is great, and rage is a decent 'last resort' sort of thing. Ranger synergizes a little better with your concept though, and lets you put skill points into concentration at 1st level without using cross class ranks.) I think you're making a solid case for Human here, and the Able Learner feat as well. Barbarian is better for me than Ranger, unless I sacrifice another level of Sorc. I feel that for Ranger to really payoff I would need at least two levels. I'd still prefer human for race, it's hard to pass up the skill point and feat (you'll effectively lose 2 skill points per level off the human because of the int penalty). But neither of the prestige classes requires skills, so you can probably afford the tradeoff if it fits your concept. Basically, as long as you're getting 2 skill points per level, you can keep Spellcraft and Concentration maxed. Yeah, demihuman stat bumps are nice, but I think Human is just too good for what I want to do. For me to consider Wild Elf, I think I'd have to lobby for the 32pb