Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soren_of_Chains 05-27-07, 12:22 AM	I've been playing for about 2-2.5 years now, and I often get the unofficial role of the party decision-maker, and party leader. This doesn't bother me, because I can do it, but in the end, I know it's the other characters choosing to follow me, not any sort of artificial authority, which is why I feel confident leading them into situations in which they may die. In a game I will be starting in this weekend, this is going to change, however. The party includes a Psion (focusing on Psychokinesis), who will be played by my RL girlfriend. I believe she is planning on playing CG or NG. There is also a LN cleric who focuses on necromancy spells who will be played by a friend from school, a LG Monk, who will be played by the guy who usually DMs the games I'm in, and who hates psionics, and my LG fighter with a spiked chain. The party is supposed to be a special operations unit in a mercenary troupe, and I've been told my character is to be the official commanding officer of the unit. Due to this, I'm not sure how effective a leader I'll be. I'm here looking for advice on how to play a good leader when you are given official power, as opposed to unofficial power. When should I play the 'I outrank you card' and when should I sit back and allow differences to be settled between my men? So far the only things I know for certain are that I need to decide on a role for everyone which explains why they're there, and I cannot ask my men to do things I wouldn't be willing to do myself in their situation. I'm planning on calling the Monk my adviser, and the Cleric my medic, but I'm not sure what official title to give the psion. Any help on any of these questions will be appreciated.
Gingerbread Guy 05-27-07, 12:58 AM	I'm surprised this topic hasn't come up more often. Its a good one. ^_^ I played a surly halfling fighter/rogue/OotBI who was in command of a special ops military unit in a game for a while, and it was an interesting experience. I'm often in a leadership or at least advisory position in games, but it was different being officially in power, as you describe. I found that if you give lots of orders but stay completely open to suggestions, things work smoothly. You'll want to be decisive, even when you don't feel like it, and try to make sure everyone understands why you give them the orders you do. As you suggested, clearly outlining everyone's role and specialties from the start is a very good idea. Our team had a lead scout (full rogue), two grunts (fighter for frontline work, and a monk for more delicate affairs), a healer who served as a tertiary warrior (cleric), a blaster (warmage), and a tracker/survivalist and secondary healer (druid). My character was able to acompany the scout when necessary, but in combat she usually found high ground where she could see the battlefield and pick off injured enemies and give orders. Worked pretty smoothly. When confronted with a task, I usually described what we needed to do, and tried to assign myself a task first so that it was clear I'd be pitching in. Also, try to phrase things so that it sounds like they're needed, not just being told what to do. You can stress urgency, but stay optimistic. ("Okay, this room is clear, but we made a lot of noise and more guards are sure to be on their way. Its a good defensible position, lets not lose what we just fought to gain. Wisp, keep a look out and warn us when you hear them coming. Roderick and I will tip those tables over and set them up for us to use as cover. Aleck, we're going to need some serious blasting if you still have juice left in you - let us know what spot gives you the best shot and we'll make sure you're protected. Janice, Hugh and Lilwen took some hard knocks in that last fight.. I'm counting on you to patch them up. When you three are ready, everyone take positions and get ready for a tussle. They're not going to see this coming.") When it comes to handling suggestions, don't be too soft. Feel free to shoot down suggestions that just won't work, but always make sure it isn't personal; judge the suggestion, not the soldier. Likewise, don't give out too much praise for a good idea; this isn't a competition, its a group effort. As for disputes, give them a chance to handle it on their own - if they succeed in sorting something out themselves, it will only make the party stronger for it. Sometimes they're just blowing off steam, sometimes its an actual problem.. not always easy to tell the difference, but it helps. When you need to step in, it should first be to "encourage" them to work towards a solution, and if that doesn't work, you end it however you have to. Don't be soft, it doesn't do anyone any good in the long run. ~Ginger
celtredleg 05-27-07, 01:05 AM	If it is a military situation, which the mercenary troupe is, then you settle all disputes, and quickly. That is how militarys work. Sit down and discuss this with the players before you start. Explain to the former DM, 2-3 times, that this is not his game. The other DM gets to make the ruleings. Explain that Psi is OK here and he cant change that. I dislike psi a lot, but if I choose to play in a game where the DM allows them, I have to shut up. This can be hard. And DMs can be hardheaded. DOnt worry about titles, those are the least of your worrys. Just call the psion a psion. When you are in command, command. Be desicive, not wishy washy. A mediocre plan executed immediately beats a perfect plan executed to late. And lastly, aggressiveness and violence of action will carry you through most situations. Of course, if your DM doesnt actualy know much about the military, then none of that will work very well, but it is all taken from a full adult lifetime spenmd in the Army.
Kaldric 05-27-07, 04:45 AM	As others have said, make decisions quickly and firmly. You don't have to be confident that your orders will save the day, but you must always sound confident. Don't be too friendly with the other PCs, but don't be cruel or mean. You are the commander, not the informal leader you were before. Don't kid around and try to be buddies. Encourage them to be buddies with each other, but you need to keep a parental role. That said, your biggest pitfall is going to be your girlfriend. If you keep your PC aloof and commanding, your relationship shouldn't sour the game for the others. If you show favoritism towards her, you'll gather resentment from the other PCs. If you don't show favoritism, you may gather resentment from your girlfriend. Enjoy the tightrope walk. Anyway, this is all just advice from someone with only the vaguest idea of what kind of group you have. Still, playing military groups can be really fun, and I hope it turns out well.
Soren_of_Chains 05-27-07, 08:16 AM	As others have said, make decisions quickly and firmly. You don't have to be confident that your orders will save the day, but you must always sound confident. Don't be too friendly with the other PCs, but don't be cruel or mean. You are the commander, not the informal leader you were before. Don't kid around and try to be buddies. Encourage them to be buddies with each other, but you need to keep a parental role. That said, your biggest pitfall is going to be your girlfriend. If you keep your PC aloof and commanding, your relationship shouldn't sour the game for the others. If you show favoritism towards her, you'll gather resentment from the other PCs. If you don't show favoritism, you may gather resentment from your girlfriend. Enjoy the tightrope walk. Anyway, this is all just advice from someone with only the vaguest idea of what kind of group you have. Still, playing military groups can be really fun, and I hope it turns out well. Considering how Ed is likely to react to us having a psion, I'll likely have to step in and stop a fight a few times. This is where I'm most concerned about the 'tightrope walk'. How can I step in and still seem objective. Ed {usual DM} will probably be the aggressor almost non-stop, even if it is only when he can find a valid, in game excuse to ***** about psions, so is it still being objective if I step in on the side of my girlfriend every time if she is the one being attacked?
Drag0nUL 05-27-07, 08:36 AM	I can say I have some experience with leading groups in D&D as I almost always end up in that position regardless of what I play. So this is the advice I can give you: Try to lead by example. I mean don't use the rank argument too often. Usually try to be the one that comes with the ideas, sets up goals, and keeps the party moving forward. This usually makes the rest of the party 'go' after you, especially if your ideas prove to yield positive results. However unlike the typical adventuring party, in your case, you are also responsible to a higher authority. If in a normal party you can let the more impulsive party members get their fingers burned from time to time, reports like' Sir, we failed our mission because I let Bill see for himself that a frontal armored assault on a fortified anti-tank position is a bad idea' don't usually tend to earn you promotions.
Greykit 05-27-07, 08:44 AM	I ended up having to play a captain in a campaign once it ended up being pretty fun. The two tricks that worked for my group was that we first discussed our roles and my role as official leader, and whenever I had to give an order that could be vague, but clear I did; example "we need to secure this room see to it Marsalen."
GhostOfJacK 05-27-07, 10:45 AM	A complex situation is this, mmmm? Okay, well talking about being a leader first. Be decisive (as was mentioned). The should be no final "what do you guys think?". You can initailly ask for suggestions, but make sure everyone gives a suggestion. Most of the time though, just make a choice and lead on with it. Think of it (on an extreme) as more of a dictatorship rather than a diplomacy. You have cleared the room making noise in the process. You -are- going to stay to defend. You are still human. You are going to make a mistakes. Live with them and don't mope around. What if you went out of the room rather than staying to defend and got a major kicking? So what? Do -not- say sorry. So -not- say you should have stayed and defended. Basically, do not live in the past - you made a mistake, now live with the consequences. That will define you, as the leader, better. Your subordinates know you are human (or swarven or whatnot) and you do make mistakes. If you man-up to the mistakes and lead onward, then good on you. Your leadership will be tested if you face a situation that could spell disaster for the group. If people are thikning that you should run away or hide and you -order- to maintain the ranks and you come out on top, then they will trust you more next time. Later, even if one person dies, it will not be such a blow to your leadership overall. Have contingencies already made up on what you will do in certain situations. If someone dies, do you finish the battle and expidite back to town, or bash on? Do you try to find the treasure hoarde in the dungeon or do you go back to town and gather gold in a slower way? Your group is as much as you make it and are willing to put into it. Say someone dies and you have not enough gold for it. It should be -your- responsibility to get that person alive (if that is your contingency) and that may even mean selling your Mwk Full Plate +1. In the military side of things, there is a saying that '**** rolls downhill'. Stick up for your men in regards to the Chain of Command. Everything they have done and do is your responsibility. If Jonesy the Rogue de-pegs the entire army-camp's tents, then it is your fault and your CoC will get angry at you and ream you out. (This is where the saying comes into play) Now, you give Jonesy a bigger thrashing. On the otherhand, if you are given a mission you think the group cannot handle, if is your responsibility to voice your concern. Being a Merc, that may even mean not taking the job. Something from a more conventional army point-of-view would be that once you get that mission, you carry it out to the fullest degree and smack any one your subordinates that step out. As leader, you accepted so they default into accepting too. Now, onto the group dynamics thing. Do not play favortism - absolutely whatsoever. The other advice posted here is great so listen to that too. My opinion is let them have differences. That will allow them to grow as characters. Ask yourself though, "Do these quarrels affect the group as a whole?" Things like them bickering is not your concern, but say the healer does not like healing the tank - that should be your concern. That quarrel could invariably kill your tank which would open then door for the enemy to come and kill the back-row people like archers and mages. There, you put your foot down and state what you need to to resolve is. No "I would like..." or "You two really should..." Use "You will..." and "Do this....". That is where you play the "I outrank you" card - when it affects the group as a whole. The former DM will be a good source for experience and maybe doing things you didn't already know. If he dislikes Psionics, then he does. Maybe your GF will change that for him (as long as she doesn't become sketchy). You have a good group dynamic going and I wish the best of luck to you.
celtredleg 05-27-07, 01:11 PM	You really need to talk to ed before the game starts. Ask him how he deals with a continualy disruptive player, and some one who questions how he runs his game. Write it all down, and tell him that is what is going to happen to him when he attacks psionics. Be in his face and up front before the game starts. This is not a PC vs PC problem, this is a player vs player problem and needs to be stopped before the game starts. If you dont, it will likely kill the game.
Kaldric 05-27-07, 03:31 PM	Do not play favortism - absolutely whatsoever. The other advice posted here is great so listen to that too. My opinion is let them have differences. That will allow them to grow as characters. Ask yourself though, "Do these quarrels affect the group as a whole?" Things like them bickering is not your concern, but say the healer does not like healing the tank - that should be your concern. That quarrel could invariably kill your tank which would open then door for the enemy to come and kill the back-row people like archers and mages. There, you put your foot down and state what you need to to resolve is. No "I would like..." or "You two really should..." Use "You will..." and "Do this....". That is where you play the "I outrank you" card - when it affects the group as a whole. Here's some concrete advice for how to handle a dispute between characters in your squad, or whatever you call it. When the guy who doesn't like psions does something that adversely effects a mission, or they openly bicker in front of you, pull them aside. Say "I realize that you two don't like each other. And guess what, troops? I don't give a sweet kiss on Pelor's sunny backside. You will DEAL with it, and I will NOT, repeat NOT allow it to effect the capability of this squad. The next time you allow your personal feelings for each other to screw up a mission, I will personally see to it that you are posted to latrine duty for the rest of your natural lives. Do I make myself clear?" When they start to try to defend themselves, as they certainly will, say the following words. "The only words I want to hear from you are SIR, YES SIR!" Or words to that effect. Anyway, make it clear that they can hate each other as much as they want, they can bicker and moan about each other as much as they want, as long as it has NO effect on their mission-capability. Make it known that THAT is all you care about.
GhostOfJacK 05-27-07, 03:57 PM	Be confidant in yourself. Even out-of-character (OOC) you should carry the appearance like you have a good grip on things and you know what to do. Look at it from the point of view of if you were not the in-character (IC) and OOC leader of the party. Would you follow someone who gives the impression they know what they are doing in game, but OOC you see him scratching his head, asking a lot of question, getting opinions from the other players and the like? Also, don't take the role IC of mimicing the DM with a conversation like this: DM: You step into the dungeon, walking down the steps a good distance. The mould and mildew smell is old here and has been replaced by the scent of dust. It is pitch black down here and you can't see more than 12" from your face. You: *Lighting a torch* Um, okay, guys. We've gone into the dungeon. What do you think we should do? Instead, replace your text to carry on the DM's speech. You: [Psion] light a torch. [Cleric] do you sense anything evil down here? (upon reply and torch) Okay, now we're going to move on. [Monk] you are leading incase of any traps and your quick-reactions. [Cleric] behind to aide him with whatnot. [Psion] you're next, and I'll take the rear to prevent anything sneaking from behind. (Well, the order can change for whatever scenario, but you have to be definitive on what you want people to do and why.) At work, we are taught that to be a good leader, you also have to 'Lead from the front'. That means that if there is no obvious choice as to what to do next and all that is keeping back is fear, you have to be the one to take the first step onwards. Say there is a bellowing moan down the dark hall that makes you all think it's a ghost or some greater creature and everyone says 'Screw that, I'm not going on!' you have to start the walk down that hall. At the same time, as an IC leader you have a responsibility to look out for their welfare. If the cave has a bunch of bones outside of it that are even larger than a human, chances are that it is a big, bad, flesh-eating monster from the seventh layer of hell and not a pack of goblins just strewing around bones. In such a scenario, do not stop the tak and say 'We're not a high enough level to face this' and rather figure out other methods to find out for sure (ie. Psicrystals, scrying, invisibility, etc) and make sure that it's just the goblins. Anyways, there's more rubles for my rant-pot.
Alric 05-27-07, 05:24 PM	Well keep in mind your the leader in character not out. So you really don't have to deal with people complaining unless they actually do it in character. I just want to put that out there, since it sounded like some of it might come from out of game issues. Anyway you need to keep in mind, that as the leader of a mercenary group, they probably don't care what you do as long as you get the job done. Leaders can be almost anything, and it really depends on how you want to play it. Personally I believe the old saying, "If its not broken, don't fix it." Theres no reason you can't lead in the same way you always have. There is only two things I would change. If an arguement drags on to long, you should step up and just decide for them. If you totally disagree with party consensus and think their idea is going to get you all killed, you need to step up and just say no, its a bad idea.
Kaldric 05-28-07, 02:20 AM	Anyway you need to keep in mind, that as the leader of a mercenary group, they probably don't care what you do as long as you get the job done. Leaders can be almost anything, and it really depends on how you want to play it. Personally I believe the old saying, "If its not broken, don't fix it." Theres no reason you can't lead in the same way you always have. This is true, but he's saying that he's now the "official, appointed" leader, rather than just organically assuming the role. There are a few differences, but you're right, he could play it the way he always has. It just wouldn't FEEL like he was playing a military commander, which I think is part of the point.
DX2052 05-28-07, 02:24 AM	Take levels of Bard/Marshall and obtain a Breastplate of Command if you want help stats wise.
Voran 05-30-07, 07:54 PM	A "Follow me!" and "I treat you all the same. Like ****!" approach may help. You may avoid feelings of "Man, he's always making us do the dirty work" by showing you're willing to get into it as well. And a "You don't have to like it, but you have to DO it" vibe may work, depending on need of the setting. Richard Marcinko ftw! Seriously tho.. There may be some concerns, as you are an appointed leader rather than a 'naturally developed leader' so this may understandably conflict with some in the party who felt their chars should be leader. Being the appointed leader puts you almost in a DMPC type of situation (Even though you're not actually one). You don't want to show off too much, pull down too much thunder or lord your status over the party, or it'll **** them off just as if you were an actual DMPC. You can also take a more 'office' style leadership role. Where you mostly let people do what they're going to do, but nudge them in the direction of the project, and make sure you've got the material you need for your presentation.
Viseryn 05-30-07, 09:53 PM	Well, the idea is to tell the soldiers what to do, but do the same thing yourself. If you're worse at it, ask for help. The only time to press your rank is when "lives" (PCs or NPCs) are at stake. That's the way it seems to me. Actually, don't even press rank with someone who thinks he's the leader, so that you can laugh at his reaction when you do press rank in an important situation. He'll be too shocked by that to give commands anyway, if he's in character.