Post/Author/DateTime	Post
geekling 02-15-08, 06:29 AM	So, I've never played a druid before. Infact it's been a while since I was on the player side of the table. But a new game is coming up, and this time I get to be a player. Yay! There's only three of us for this one. So the party composition is a Bard(human) (generic jack-of-all trades) and a Wizard(halfling) (generalist-ish, Heavy emphasis on non-direct damage spells. Battlefield control, illusions, charm effects, etc. aplenty. Fireballs, magic missiles, and other blasty things not so much.) Lastly of course my Druid(human). Who from the look of things are going to have to fill the role of main combat bunny, be the damage dealer, tank, and when and if we run out of wands for healing, first-aider and general dogsbody. We start at level 6, so I'll have wildshape and the natural spell feat from the get go. Books allowed/have access to - PHB, PHB2, Spell compendium, Complete series (divine, arcane, warrior, adventurer) and MM1 - for animals to wildshape into. One of my problems seem to be AC for the druid. Getting the riding dog animal companion up to AC 27 (before any buffs up to low thirties if go all out on buffing him up with AC in mind) so that Pookie can tank - no problem. Getting my own character's AC even to reach 20 (with buffs) on the other hand... AC around the 17 mark at lvl 6 seems awfully low. Even in wildshape, the small or medium animals in MM1 with HD <6 seem to be in that sort of area, 17-19. So that's a worry, and if anyone has any advice, or just reassurance that under AC 20 is going to be OK. Or failing that, that 43 HP is going to be plenty for damage sponge purposes (even when i do play, I don't usually do the tank thing, if you hadn't noticed. NPC tanks is a different affair.) That would be nice. :) Or, have I missed a feat somewhere? One I could give my animal companion. That, with the risk of getting lynched for bring up a computer game, :P functions like 'taunt' in NWN. To force attackers to concetrate on the high AC animal companion rather than at me or anyone else.
kelvinaw273 02-15-08, 08:56 AM	Best advice I can give you is to use tactics to keep Pookie between you and the bad guys, and use Summon Nature's Ally to supplement him. Also, when Wildshaped you can tank pretty well. For level 6 AC27 is excelent in most games, but beware flankers and the like.
toucanbuzz 02-15-08, 11:15 AM	If I'm an experienced combatant with a choice between a dog and a wizard or any other humanoid, I'm ignoring your dog "tank", taking the AoO chance, and going for the good stuff. Your dog can "taunt" me all he wants with his incessant barking, but I just don't see it making much sense. Don't forget your companion gains "Feats" every 3rd level, so check his bonus hit dice and make sure he's trained as well as he can be! The closest thing I can think of in the base rules to make opponents think twice about running past would be Combat Reflexes for those extra AoO and perhaps an Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual) to up the hit dice damage of the bite.
geekling 02-15-08, 11:54 AM	The closest thing I can think of in the base rules to make opponents think twice about running past would be Combat Reflexes for those extra AoO and perhaps an Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual) to up the hit dice damage of the bite. Thank you guys. That's the ones I've given him. :) Although with the thought of dog -> trip -> getting up from prone incurs an AoO. So being able to take more than one AoO might be good. And getting a reach weapon, longspear, so I can stand back a bit and let the dog take point.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 12:28 PM	So, I've never played a druid before. Infact it's been a while since I was on the player side of the table. But a new game is coming up, and this time I get to be a player. Yay! There's only three of us for this one. So the party composition is a Bard(human) (generic jack-of-all trades) and a Wizard(halfling) (generalist-ish, Heavy emphasis on non-direct damage spells. Battlefield control, illusions, charm effects, etc. aplenty. Fireballs, magic missiles, and other blasty things not so much.) Lastly of course my Druid(human). Who from the look of things are going to have to fill the role of main combat bunny, be the damage dealer, tank, and when and if we run out of wands for healing, first-aider and general dogsbody. We start at level 6, so I'll have wildshape and the natural spell feat from the get go. Books allowed/have access to - PHB, PHB2, Spell compendium, Complete series (divine, arcane, warrior, adventurer) and MM1 - for animals to wildshape into. One of my problems seem to be AC for the druid. Getting the riding dog animal companion up to AC 27 (before any buffs up to low thirties if go all out on buffing him up with AC in mind) so that Pookie can tank - no problem. Getting my own character's AC even to reach 20 (with buffs) on the other hand... AC around the 17 mark at lvl 6 seems awfully low. Even in wildshape, the small or medium animals in MM1 with HD <6 seem to be in that sort of area, 17-19. So that's a worry, and if anyone has any advice, or just reassurance that under AC 20 is going to be OK. Or failing that, that 43 HP is going to be plenty for damage sponge purposes (even when i do play, I don't usually do the tank thing, if you hadn't noticed. NPC tanks is a different affair.) That would be nice. :) Or, have I missed a feat somewhere? One I could give my animal companion. That, with the risk of getting lynched for bring up a computer game, :P functions like 'taunt' in NWN. To force attackers to concetrate on the high AC animal companion rather than at me or anyone else. The 6th level feat you absolutely can't live without is Natural Spell. This is vital, like air to people. Losing it seriously hurts your power level. And welcome to CoDzilla. The single strongest class in the game is now your Corvette for the remainder of the campaign. One of the best parts about playing the game is knowing nothing can come close to your level of power (barring several select things). The next thing you need is to get the MM3 allowed. This book was printed for 3.5 despite being called 3. Look in the cover of it, and you will see that the print date is after the PHB 3.5 was released. Why do you need this book? The Fleshraker. It is a house. As to drawing the fire, Goad from Races of Stone works nicely. Now then, on to the powerhousing. Don't focus on healing. The party can do just fine with a Wand of Lesser Vigor or six. Your Bard can also cast healing spells, so let's leave this subject alone. Spells that rock the house are Entangle, Web, and SNA. Once you get the right level, your SNA becomes Summon Unicorn to Heal our Asses. Everything else is Air and Earth Elementals. Summon them, and use their Whirlwind and Earth Glide abilities to dominate the field. There is a handbook for optimizing Druids in the CO boards. Read everything in it. Then apply what you read.
celloshane 02-15-08, 01:00 PM	AC for a druid can be a bit tough if you don't know where to look for it. Buffs are your primary source for cranking it up. You'll need spells from SPC, BOED, and possibly other splat books like RoD and Draconomicon. Luminous Armor is your absolute most useful AC spell. Consider Draconic Wildshape as well. Check the CO boards for the Druid Handbook Revived thread, as the advice in there is pretty much the best summary you can find. As a side note, you might want to OK this stuff with your DM, a full out CODzilla without warning is the easiest way to get the nerfstick.
icuall 02-15-08, 01:20 PM	I've played many Druids. I usually ask my DM to forgo the Animal Companion by asking if I can replace it with a feat. Sometimes Animal Companions just get in the way. Basically Animal Companions are useful, but primarily it is there for flavor.
Fitz10019 02-15-08, 01:39 PM	Here is the link for the Druid handbook: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400 The handbook refers to Luminous Armor, too. But the spell description (BoExDeeds, p. 102) does not list it as a druid spell. It says Sanctified. Why is this commonly referred to as a druid spell? On the topic of Armor, isn't Mage Armor good for a druid, considering it still applies after wildshaping, and should stack with the natural armor of the animal form? I'm asking, because I don't remember anyone recommending it. For feat recommendations, Spellbound Companion gives a 30ft range to spells shared with the animal companion. So good tactical options can come of this. Edit: understanding that you gotta get a Mage to cast the Mage Armor.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 02:04 PM	Here is the link for the Druid handbook: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400 The handbook refers to Luminous Armor, too. But the spell description (BoExDeeds, p. 102) does not list it as a druid spell. It says Sanctified. Why is this commonly referred to as a druid spell? On the topic of Armor, isn't Mage Armor good for a druid, considering it still applies after wildshaping, and should stack with the natural armor of the animal form? I'm asking, because I don't remember anyone recommending it. For feat recommendations, Spellbound Companion gives a 30ft range to spells shared with the animal companion. So good tactical options can come of this. Edit: understanding that you gotta get a Mage to cast the Mage Armor. Not sure about the Mage Armor, but Luminous Armor is a Sanctified spell, so it can be learned by anyone, similar to the Corrupt spells. So it is indeed a Druid spell. Spellbound Companion is ok if you are focusing on the companion.
Fitz10019 02-15-08, 02:27 PM	Luminous Armor is a Sanctified spell, so it can be learned by anyone Ah, thanks! Hah, I thought that was a Domain!! I'll go sit in the corner now...
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 02:56 PM	Ah, thanks! Hah, I thought that was a Domain!! I'll go sit in the corner now... Pants belong in the corner. People belong in the dumpster. Which side are you on?
CrimsonDeath 02-15-08, 03:59 PM	If you can't use the Book of Exalted Deeds, Mage Armor is a good substitute. The Wizard is probably casting it on himself, so consider buying a Pearl of Power 1 to let him recover the spell and cast it on you. A Lesser Rod of Extend and two castings of Barkskin will get you another +3 AC for four hours. At your level, a Pearl of Power 2 probably isn't worth it for the second Barkskin casting.
xdahnx 02-15-08, 09:35 PM	don't forget that barkskin (not the mage armour tho) will apply to your dog as well. Companion spellbond will let you keep your distance, and still buff you both.
X0_Lt_0X 02-15-08, 09:55 PM	Remember to choose your animal companion LOL just making a reference to the driud in a Ravenloft campaign who forgot to choose one (by the way the party was wiped twice before i entered the campaign in which case Light Bringers Re-Rezed them =3)
eamon 02-16-08, 04:52 PM	At level six they're still a little expensive, but you'll want wilding clasps to keep useful items while wild-shaped. Since your wisdom is likely high, a monk's belt is eventually interesting (and stacks with many things). A ring of force shield can add to your AC too, while buffed. It's not my experience that druids need to suffer low AC; though at level six it might indeed be somewhat low. Basically, barkskin + mage armor should be enough to boost you for quite a while. And you can try to get your mage sold on greater mage armor later on, for an even better +6 AC! By level 9, you should have +4 from barkskin, and +6 from greater mage armor, which grants you quite a bit of AC. Throw in a monk's belt for at least 4 more, and you should have 24AC without any bonuses from your form at all, or any other bonuses at all. You'll want the bite-of-the-were.... spells from Spell Compendium. They... change things :-).
DrMorganes 02-16-08, 06:09 PM	Also, I'm going to recommend that you sit down with your DM and have a frank discussion about Wild Shape. See, there's one little sentence in the description of the feature that will throw your CoDzilla self into a world of hurt:The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. You need to have your DM define what animal forms your druid is "familiar" with at the start of the game and how your druid becomes "familiar" with a given animal form. The aforementioned Fleshraker dinosaur is a Medium-sized critter (meaning it's valid size for your Level 6 druid) with some pretty amazing combat ability. However, if they don't exist in your part of the world there's no way for you to be familiar with them. So do yourself a favor now and get this out of the way.
pigknight 02-16-08, 06:32 PM	As soon as you can wolf, bear and dino wild shapes=tank. I would trade in Fido for a wolf, and say Fido got lost and reverted back to a wolf. Druids are hard to make suck, and in 2 levels I recommend flamestrike, it will be a major blasty-blasty spell you can use all the way to 15th lvl.
Sinfire Titan 02-16-08, 06:45 PM	Also, I'm going to recommend that you sit down with your DM and have a frank discussion about Wild Shape. See, there's one little sentence in the description of the feature that will throw your CoDzilla self into a world of hurt:You need to have your DM define what animal forms your druid is "familiar" with at the start of the game and how your druid becomes "familiar" with a given animal form. The aforementioned Fleshraker dinosaur is a Medium-sized critter (meaning it's valid size for your Level 6 druid) with some pretty amazing combat ability. However, if they don't exist in your part of the world there's no way for you to be familiar with them. So do yourself a favor now and get this out of the way. Note that a simple Knowledge (Nature) check also means you are familiar with an animal of that kind.
kelvinaw273 02-17-08, 12:12 PM	Note that a simple Knowledge (Nature) check also means you are familiar with an animal of that kind. That depends on how common it is. For example, a druid wanting to assume dinosaur shapes may instead be required to make a knowledge (paleontology) check :D Seriously, though, it is not reasonable to assume a druid raised and trained in a temperate zone will automatically be familiar with polar bears or jaguars.
CrimsonDeath 02-17-08, 03:40 PM	The PHB explicitly states that a Druid who's spent all his life in temperate forests will not be "familiar" with polar bears, presumably regardless of his Knowledge (nature) modifier. So if you want to be "familiar" with creatures from a variety of climates and terrains, create a back story that involves extensive travelling.
Legdiwena 02-17-08, 03:59 PM	Make sure and check with DM how ring of force shield interacts with monk's belt.
Cartigan 02-17-08, 04:07 PM	The PHB explicitly states that a Druid who's spent all his life in temperate forests will not be "familiar" with polar bears, presumably regardless of his Knowledge (nature) modifier. Well then, in general, I would have to say that the entire Knowledge skill line is worthless because identifying unfamiliar things is the only thing Knowledge does. The problem here is meshing pure role-playing and game design. A character might not have knowledge about something, but then what happens when he comes across a creature? Is he automatically familiar with it because of his history or does he have to make a roll to think what it is? If it isn't part of his history, does he fail the roll regardless? Even if you removed Knowledge skills to only "studious" classes, there are always cross-class skill ranks. There is a alot of screwing around you would have to do with the entire Knowledge skill system in order to keep it useful but prevent it from being 'abused' by Druids in a game where RP is somewhat important. And the MoMF class must be pure anti-RP because it is designed to give wildshapers as many choices as possible but come only out of the Druid class without multi-classing into other ones without proper knowledge sets.
Legdiwena 02-17-08, 04:10 PM	He may not be familiar with polar bears, but a K:Nature check would give him enough info to summon one and get familiar with it that way.
CrimsonDeath 02-17-08, 08:41 PM	Well then, in general, I would have to say that the entire Knowledge skill line is worthless because identifying unfamiliar things is the only thing Knowledge does. I didn't say that if a polar bear walked up to him, he wouldn't know what it was. I just said that, until a polar bear did walk up to him, he wouldn't be able to Wild Shape into one.
kelvinaw273 02-18-08, 10:08 AM	Well then, in general, I would have to say that the entire Knowledge skill line is worthless because identifying unfamiliar things is the only thing Knowledge does. The problem here is meshing pure role-playing and game design. A character might not have knowledge about something, but then what happens when he comes across a creature? Is he automatically familiar with it because of his history or does he have to make a roll to think what it is? If it isn't part of his history, does he fail the roll regardless? Even if you removed Knowledge skills to only "studious" classes, there are always cross-class skill ranks. There is a alot of screwing around you would have to do with the entire Knowledge skill system in order to keep it useful but prevent it from being 'abused' by Druids in a game where RP is somewhat important. And the MoMF class must be pure anti-RP because it is designed to give wildshapers as many choices as possible but come only out of the Druid class without multi-classing into other ones without proper knowledge sets. Knowledge is based on intelligence for a reason. It's not just what you know but what you can infer from what observe. At the same time, knowledges in D&D are not the same as academic courses taught in modern universities; to a druid his knowledge is first hand (what he has encountered) and likely oral (what he has been taught by another druid when he was an apprentice). Only the latter will realistically include information on creatures outside his normal locale. So as mentioned, he may know what a polar bear is in theory, he may be able to recognise one, but transform into one? Summon one? As for backstory, you better check with your DM first - he may have reasons for saying you start out in village X. As for the Master of Many Forms class, a well traveled adventuring druid would easily acquire the knowledge desired to make this class work. It's not as if they go into from level 1, after all.
CrimsonDeath 02-18-08, 11:41 AM	So as mentioned, he may know what a polar bear is in theory, he may be able to recognise one, but transform into one? Summon one? In my opinion, if you cast Summon Nature's Ally, you should be able to call any creature from the SNA list, because that's what the spell does. And I think it's a reasonable method of becoming "familiar" with a creature for the purpose of Wild Shape.
Cartigan 02-18-08, 12:02 PM	I didn't say that if a polar bear walked up to him, he wouldn't know what it was. I just said that, until a polar bear did walk up to him, he wouldn't be able to Wild Shape into one. That makes an indescribably small amount of sense.
Cartigan 02-18-08, 12:07 PM	Knowledge is based on intelligence for a reason. It's not just what you know but what you can infer from what observe. At the same time, knowledges in D&D are not the same as academic courses taught in modern universities; to a druid his knowledge is first hand (what he has encountered) and likely oral (what he has been taught by another druid when he was an apprentice). Only the latter will realistically include information on creatures outside his normal locale. So as mentioned, he may know what a polar bear is in theory, he may be able to recognise one, but transform into one? Summon one? \ Why would he be able to recognize one? Is he able to tell it apart from a Grizzly? Why wouldn't think it is an albino grizzly? If he can recognize it, he would be familiar enough with the creature to turn into it. If you try to counter that with "he may know what it looks like and its difference from the grizzly, but wouldn't know what it's attacks and strength is," then I will counter-counter with "he doesn't know that about any animal." All bears have claws and bites - thus so would a polar bear. But how would he know how powerful it is? He doesn't. Neither does he know how powerful a grizzly or black bear is. As I already said, the whole Knowledge line is not specific enough to just easily interweave with pure role-playing. You would have to run a complete overhaul of the knowledge system that narrowed it even further than it already is and reapplies who can take what knowledge skills.
eamon 02-18-08, 02:35 PM	You can summon creature's you've never seen before. You can't wild shape into a polar bear until 9th level - coincidentally, the level at which you gain summon nature's ally V. This allows you to summon a polar bear. Every 9th level druid thus has the means to become familiar with a polar bear. Frankly, I think in D&D it's a hassle if you spend a lot of time in-game levelling up. It's fine for people to gain abilities instantaneously, with the implicit understanding that it's all part of adventuring. If you want that to make more sense; include some downtime for various things, but, in principle, most reasonable animals should be available for a druid to wild shape into. If you, as a DM, don't allow it, you're just forcing the PC to actually play out what is very believable, but not something you want at the game-table: namely, spending time to train and level - and thus to travel, summon new creatures, visit odd zoo's or whatever. Furthermore, nowhere is "familiar" actually defined. It's obvious that a druid can't wild shape into a form of which he's never heard, that just makes no sense. But if he's got a good idea and an exceptional insight into nature (knowledge nature), he could certainly be familiar enough to turn into one without stretching believability - maybe his disguise won't be as believable, but that's not what a druid is usually trying to achieve when he turns into a high HD animal. Further, scrying is merely a 4th level druid spell, without expensive focus or component - and most animals have abysmal will saves. A druid that spends some free time scrying things in far away places, will inevitably learn of new creatures. A druid who's got a secondhand description can even try to scry a creature directly - so a druid who's only met any other person (such as another druid) who's met a certain creature could spend his evenings trying to scry some of the more interesting one's. This is all part of background levelling; and means that only obscure forms, of which the druid should have no urge to examine or truly no means to become familiar with, or has never heard of should be beyond reach. At worst, suggest to a player that he should spend some time researching such things - utterly sane for a druid to do - and let him have the new forms after a reasonable period or whenever he next levels. Really, being overly restrictive about natural forms for wild shape makes no sense. It's just causing friction between player and DM, it doesn't make much in-game sense, and it's arbitrary - why can wizards learn new spells when they level yet druids can't learn new forms? So sure, ban dinosaur forms if your world doesn't contain them (but then don't use em later on in the campaign either!) and ban forms no-one in the region has even heard of. But if, in-game, it makes sense for a form to be interesting, and it's known, then research should usually allow the usage of a form.
Krusk 02-19-08, 01:00 AM	Keep in mind that the entire line about being familiar with an animal is increadibly vauge. Hence the chat with the DM about what familiar is. Some say it is a high enough knowledge check. Some say seeing the animal once. Some say being raised by the animals for the first 24 years of your life. Some say being a druid makes you familiar. Familiar is a very subjective term, that wizards has not once defined. -Personally when I dm, i simply say any base animal you are familiar with. No dire, no ledgendary, and no dinosaur. Anything else you are fine to take. Once you have seen the rest once you can turn into them. My pcs also never see dinosaurs, so druids do not turn into them.
kelvinaw273 02-19-08, 03:28 AM	In my opinion, if you cast Summon Nature's Ally, you should be able to call any creature from the SNA list, because that's what the spell does. And I think it's a reasonable method of becoming "familiar" with a creature for the purpose of Wild Shape. I don't disagree that it's a good method of becoming familiar with an animal; but why would a dinosaur be summoned in the arctic? Why would you get a polar bear in a jungle? Should summon nature's ally be restricted to creatures native to a habitat? That makes a lot of sense, as things like bears and wolves are found in most environments. I'm not saying that SNA should summon creatures at random, but it might make RP sense to be restricted to creatures the druid knows well or are native to where is at the time. That makes an indescribably small amount of sense. It makes a lot of sense from every point of view bar that of "But I wanna polar bear!" What you have to realise is that Druids and Clerics have crunch balanced by fluff - if you ignore the fluff (that you have to be familiar with an animal to wildshape into it, that a cleric has to follow a code as restrictive as a paladin's) then the crunch can become overpowered. Why would he be able to recognize one? Is he able to tell it apart from a Grizzly? Why wouldn't think it is an albino grizzly? If he can recognize it, he would be familiar enough with the creature to turn into it. If you try to counter that with "he may know what it looks like and its difference from the grizzly, but wouldn't know what it's attacks and strength is," then I will counter-counter with "he doesn't know that about any animal." All bears have claws and bites - thus so would a polar bear. But how would he know how powerful it is? He doesn't. Neither does he know how powerful a grizzly or black bear is. As I already said, the whole Knowledge line is not specific enough to just easily interweave with pure role-playing. You would have to run a complete overhaul of the knowledge system that narrowed it even further than it already is and reapplies who can take what knowledge skills. I disagree. Native peoples often have a familiarity with animals in their habitat that goes far beyond that of any zoologist. Also bear in mind (no pun intended) that a druid is a divine caster. He can turn into animals because he has a deep spiritual connection to them, not just because he knows what they look like and how they act. Perhaps to become 'familiar' with an animal he has to perform a rite whereby he experiences what it is like to be the animal in a dream-quest and makes contact with that animal totem. I am in no way proposing that Druid PCs should spend game-time doing these things - but I am suggesting that it is not unreasonable for them to restrict themselves to what they could have done, and to what feel appropriate to their setting. Furthermore, nowhere is "familiar" actually defined. It's obvious that a druid can't wild shape into a form of which he's never heard, that just makes no sense. But if he's got a good idea and an exceptional insight into nature (knowledge nature), he could certainly be familiar enough to turn into one without stretching believability - maybe his disguise won't be as believable, but that's not what a druid is usually trying to achieve when he turns into a high HD animal. At worst, suggest to a player that he should spend some time researching such things - utterly sane for a druid to do - and let him have the new forms after a reasonable period or whenever he next levels. Really, being overly restrictive about natural forms for wild shape makes no sense. It's just causing friction between player and DM, it doesn't make much in-game sense, and it's arbitrary - why can wizards learn new spells when they level yet druids can't learn new forms? So sure, ban dinosaur forms if your world doesn't contain them (but then don't use em later on in the campaign either!) and ban forms no-one in the region has even heard of. But if, in-game, it makes sense for a form to be interesting, and it's known, then research should usually allow the usage of a form. Why would it cause friction between player and DM? It depends on your game, but lets face it wildshape is one of the reasons Druids over power every other class except the cleric. I see no power issues in restricting the crunch of it with the the fluff of it (yes, I have known players who would go foaming at the mouth at the very thought of doing that, but I don't play with that kind of player). I'm just throwing ideas around here, but I don't think it's unreasonable to insist a druid cannot transform into an animal he has never seen before. I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that if a druid has never seen snow, he isn't going to summon or turn into a polar bear if he is in the middle of a jungle at the time. I'm not insisting that characters have to spend time leveling, just that they should be restricted to what they reasonably could know and have experienced. You are right, 'familiar' is in no way defined, it's part of the fluff. But then it's the only limit on a very strong power, so it makes sense to use it, not ignore it which is in effect what most people do. If you ignore the limits, any class can get overpowered. It is something that I think DM and player need to work on together, to define the limitations of the power and the advantages of it.
Cartigan 02-19-08, 09:46 AM	It makes a lot of sense from every point of view bar that of "But I wanna polar bear!" What you have to realise is that Druids and Clerics have crunch balanced by fluff - if you ignore the fluff (that you have to be familiar with an animal to wildshape into it, that a cleric has to follow a code as restrictive as a paladin's) then the crunch can become overpowered. Except the Cleric's code of conduct isn't the same as the Paladin's. And the "familiar" clause is very vague and is only made worse by the rules set out by the Knowledge skill line. See my last post. I disagree. Native peoples often have a familiarity with animals in their habitat that goes far beyond that of any zoologist. Sure, they may know what it eats and where it hunts, but do they know the pounds per square inch of its bite? The power behind a paw swing? No. Then the zoologist has a better leg to stand on for wildshaping into one than a native. Also bear in mind (no pun intended) that a druid is a divine caster. He can turn into animals because he has a deep spiritual connection to them, not just because he knows what they look like and how they act. Perhaps to become 'familiar' with an animal he has to perform a rite whereby he experiences what it is like to be the animal in a dream-quest and makes contact with that animal totem. That is probably the most sensible solution. And the problem is most "limits" are actual rules as opposed to implied RP fluff that is countered by the game's very own skill system.
kelvinaw273 02-19-08, 12:06 PM	Except the Cleric's code of conduct isn't the same as the Paladin's. And the "familiar" clause is very vague and is only made worse by the rules set out by the Knowledge skill line. See my last post. I agree, it's not well worded and it's not very clear, which is the nature of fluff sometimes. I did see your post, and your points were well-made, but unfortunately crunch-wise the Knowledge skill is all we have to work with. Sure, they may know what it eats and where it hunts, but do they know the pounds per square inch of its bite? The power behind a paw swing? No. Then the zoologist has a better leg to stand on for wildshaping into one than a native. I'll bet they know how long it would take to bite through their leg, which - let's face it - is the important thing! That is probably the most sensible solution. And the problem is most "limits" are actual rules as opposed to implied RP fluff that is countered by the game's very own skill system. Exactly, which is why some players feel they can ignore them. Clerics and Druids should have to follow codes of conduct that are as strict as a paladins, but sadly they just aren't stated anywhere because they will vary so much by deity, sect and church.
toucanbuzz 02-19-08, 12:28 PM	I find it hard to argue with the logic that you have familiarity with anything you can summon. In my off-time as a druid, I'm likely to "practice" my spells, which means I'm summoning crap. For example: Petria o' the Oak opened my eyes to the possibility of a great bear that exists only in the glacial regions. Coming from the south, I had never heard of such a thing. But the words of the spell were on my lips, the simple twist of a finger that signaled I wanted this mighty beast before me. And when that mighty white behemoth appeared, I was filled with an awe for the greatness of Silvanus, for surely here was the paragon of beasts, noble and fierce. I studied it, learned it, and I knew Silvanus would approve me taking this form.
Akharu 02-19-08, 01:06 PM	I'd like to jump in with some other questions since this is also my first time playing a druid. Regarding animal companions, is the dire wolf that far behind the brown bear in power? I see the stats are close and the abilities of the two are almost equally useful in certain situations, but the bears multiple attacks just seem to overshadow the dire wolf. Any opinions? Is there anything illegal (other than cheesyness) about using the Bite line of spells (SC) while in animal form? Would the effects carry over to the new form? Also, a question on natural armor. Would the natural armor bonus from the bite spells (as well as my natural armor bonus from VoP) disappear? My last question has to do with material components. Having focused mainly on the arcane side, do divine casters also use material components? I know about divine focuses but wasn't certain about components. Thanks.
Legdiwena 02-19-08, 01:16 PM	NA bonus from the spell and VoP are both enhancement, right? They wouldn't stack with each other, but should enhance your NA from your new form as normal.
Akharu 02-19-08, 01:22 PM	The bonus from VoP is unnamed.
Legdiwena 02-19-08, 01:33 PM	They should both add to NA from race then.
Sinfire Titan 02-19-08, 05:38 PM	They should both add to NA from race then. Actually, the bonus from VoP is Exalted, which is similar to Armor bonus but has a different name. Most Divine spells require a Divine focus, which is a Holy Symbol of your deity or ideal. Those that do have components tend to be rather expensive.
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 05:45 PM	The bonus from VoP is unnamed. The natural armor bonus from VoP is a natural armor bonus, so it would overlap with other natural armor bonuses. Either would still stack with an enhancement bonus to natural armor (but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor, such as from Barkskin).
Legdiwena 02-19-08, 05:45 PM	Actually, the bonus from VoP is Exalted, which is similar to Armor bonus but has a different name. Most Divine spells require a Divine focus, which is a Holy Symbol of your deity or ideal. Those that do have components tend to be rather expensive. You are reading the AC Bonus entry. We are talking about the Natural Armor entry, that is not exalted.