Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Akasha 08-11-04, 11:44 PM	I've been an avid gamer ( strictly d&d ) for about five years now, and i've had the same DM for most of that. A few of us in the group tried it but we love the way our DM runs the game so he's pretty much relegated to never being a PC again. :P Our group has changed a few times over the years but for the majority of the time it was me, the DM and one other player. He joined the Navy about 2 years back and it's been mainly just me and the DM ever since. My younger cousin has been begging for a long time to be included and he's reached the age where we feel it's alright so we recently started up a campaign with him and two other ( older ) players. The problem is not my cousin. The problem is me. Now i'm used to playing with just the DM and being able to take my character in any direction i chose. I'm also used to playing loners, since the closest I came to a "party" was me and an NPC. I'm doing alright with the "working together", it's just that everyone else i've played with has always taken their roleplaying pretty seriously so I have a clear idea of what my character would say or do and why, and it's hard for me to just come right out and be buddies with, say, the guy that is so clearly a rogue plotting to kill our paladin. Or just hand over magic items to people that my character met the day before ( in a low-magic campaign no less. ) There's one player that asks things like "are you evil?" "what kind of abilities do you have?" and "well how come you're not trying to help us?" I try not to bang my head on the table, i really do. But I don't know how to react to that stuff. I know they've not really played and i am trying to be patient. I'm even going to kill my pc off because i've realized that the character i chose is not really conducive to playing well with others. The other player was a "DM" long ago that had absolutely no understanding of the rules or even what to do. I had played in one of his games back in the AD&D era: no books at all, made-up stat sheets and the oddest series of events. ( events from The Hobbit crossed with Conan the Barbarian and such. ) He's not bad at it, he's just convinced he knows what's going to happen already - so he forced the party to spend a week on a mountainside because he was convinced that when the sunshine hit the rock the right way, a key-hole would be revealed. :twitch: It's so hard not to play in-character when I've been gaming that way for so long. Can anyone please help me before i resort to playing "Fighter A"? :bigeyes: edit: oh holy crap that's long. sorry!
Mitchell 08-12-04, 12:54 AM	Explain to them when they ask things like "what's your alignment?", that that is an inappropriate question, and then explain why. As for the abilities, that's understandable. New players want to know what's going on, or at least hopefully they do. Tell them things your class can do, tell them what a certain feat does, and point out to them some things that they can do as well. You are dumping your non-social character, so that's a start. Now just figure out what they are and what they need. You have some flexibility in this, so you won't be locked in to one class, but try not to step on their toes. A new player can get frustrated by a more experienced player who always seems to do their job better than they do. Work with them. If there is no cleric, be a healer. If you don't want to be a cleric, fine. You still have the druid, paladin, bard, or even the ranger that can fill in. If they need a fighter, then you can build a ranger, barbarian, paladin, fighter, or possibly a cleric to do the job. You are the experienced one, help them out. Show them things, tell them things, explain things, but do most of this before and after the game. Let them make decisions and try things for themselves. If you just tell everyone what to do and where to go, then they will start to find the whole thing rather boring.
Akasha 08-12-04, 05:00 AM	thanks Mitch. :) i should have mentioned that they ask those things in character. when i tried to explain why the sorcerer we just met may find being asked if he is evil offensive, they got upset with me. i'm also trying not to give them too much character-specific information to prevent meta-gaming. ( they asked to see my sheet and couldn't understand why i didn't dump out my bag in front of them for them to use ) you're right, they're definitely frustrated when i do anything, even just ask the dm a question that gets us more information. i'm trying to just hang back and let them lead but that didn't work because i got told my character was mean. :confused: my dm is trying to have me lead the party to set an example but that's certainly not going to work, they're not going to have any fun if they feel like the supporting cast. maybe i should just sit out their first campaign?
Mitchell 08-12-04, 09:14 PM	Sitting out is an option, but I don't know if a whole campaign is necessary. I guess it depends. If your DM wants to run a mini-campaign just to get them used to the basics, then start again after they know their way around, it might be okay. This would give you the chance to sit back out of game and coach them, if your DM doesn't mind. You can give them some generally useful advice ("Let the rogue try to pick the lock before the fighter kicks the door in."), and remind them of options, both during the game ("Don't forget that you have power attack. You may want to use it now that you know what you need to hit."), and after it ("You already have power attack, maybe you should think about cleave before you get into another feat chain."). Some people are more sensitive to being told what to do, so let them make their decisions, and then you can discuss what went wrong, or right, afterwards. Others are happy to take pointers, so you can work more closely with them during the game. There are alot of levels to this game, and I don't just mean 1st or 2nd. New players sometimes need guidance when it comes to multi-classing, especially what class to take and when/how long to take it. There is also skill, feat, and spell selection, both on a daily basis and when picking new spells known. There aren't that many bad choices, I suppose, but there are definitely better choices. Athletic may be an okay feat for RP purposes, but there are definitely better long term choices. I know I play with new players, so I can feel your pain, but our DM just started what will hopefully be his first long term campaign for the group, and I sat out the first session, because I helped him prepare the dungeon (He and his wife were in the process of moving, and she wanted to get things "back to normal", but he wasn't able to put the time in for anything), and I also spent alot of time helping the other players get characters ready, limiting the time that I had to think about my own. Give them time to grow, and room to grow on their own. If nothing else, you can see if they are a group that you would like to play with. And for what it's worth, your DM should be the one telling them that they shouldn't ask those questions, and should back you up when you refuse to answer. They've got to learn that there are some things that they just won't know. I'm going to tell all my fellow players that I am a warrior, soldier, swordsman, bringer of justice or whatever, but I am not going to tell them that I am a paladin of Tyr (FR), and I am going to keep my armor on until nightfall, so they won't find out that I'm a 1/2 orc until then. Hang onto your rope... It will get better.
KittenWarrior 08-13-04, 08:18 PM	First off, you need to make clear to them the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge. A character in a campaign does not think in terms of class levels, or even alignment. They may be aware of the difference between a cleric and a wizard, but they may have trouble knowing the guy they just met toting the spiked chain is a monk rather than a fighter. They will, after interacting with the characters, come to see that some people are better in combat than others, even if they gnerally appear to do the same things (an indication of level). Alignment is tricky, though.. Remember that very few evil characters see themselves that way. They will certainly know that what they're doing is considered 'bad' by others, but they will most likely believe they're doing what's right, if only for their benefit ("Just looking out for number one.."). Also, a character's alignment isn't even necessarily known to the player. You might think that you're playing a CG ranger, but you might have been rolpeplaying him rather honorable, in which case you could be well on your way to LG (and your current alignment may be NG. That alone is reason enough for not asking about alignments in-character. There's nothing wrong with pointing out to a newbie player that they're acting on player knowledge, and you should certainly have, or get, your DM to back you up on that. To get this idea of in-game vs. out-of-game knowledge across, it might help to bring a couple of hats or caps. Everytime someone wants to discuss something OOC, they must put on their cap. Then you can use your OOC-cap to explain rules stuff as it happens: DM: "Make spot checks" You: "I get a 19." Newbie: "I get a 6." DM: "Everyone with a result over 12 notices a bird flying overhead." You: "Okay, I keep an eye on it" Newbie: "I get my bow and ready an arrow." You: (wearing cap) "Why would you do that? You didn't see the bird, remember?" You can also use the OOC-caps to discuss roleplaying moments, such as explaining why your character did this or that. As you get this distinction across, it's perfectly alright for you to show them your character sheet, or any sort of information they would want to have. As for retiring your character, that's of course entirely your option, but I wouldn't do it just because he's a loner. Most of my characters tend to be that way too, and trying to find a way for him to try and work with the group might be an interesting roleplaying task on your part. Perhaps he has an infatuation with one of the other PCs, or he's just enough of a realist to know there are tasks he just cannot accomplish on his own.. If your character does feel an unstoppable urge to stalk off on his own, take some OOC time to explain to the other players why this happens, and let them know that you'll be back eventually.. Hope this helps a little! Cheers, KW
Akasha 08-15-04, 03:45 PM	thanks again guys. :) it's not that i don't want to roleplay my character, they just seem to be upset if she doesn't necessarily join right in. for instance - they're on an expidition in orc-infested woods, and they were supposed to meet up with a ranger who would take them where they had to go. my character found that ranger's body and his orders, and decided to help them out of her sense of duty to her comrade. the only interaction i had with their characters was fighting alongside during an encounter, one of them speaking to me in orc ( he was human ) and helping one when she got hit with an arrow. so we arrived at the camp they had to go to and.....i should be leaving here, right? i have no idea what their mission is, and i don't know them. from a roleplaying standpoint i did my job and sort of need a reason to join up with the party, but when i said something to that effect they all freaked out. my dm would rather i hold my ground, and lead by example, but i don't want them to be mad at me. as for offering advice, when i pointed out that asking the mage if he was evil might not be such a hot idea, or that the fighter who failed their spot check didn't see someone behind a tree so should therefore not be planning attack, they round on me like i'm actng against them. i guess my problem is not that i don't know how to play around inexperienced players, i have done that before, it's that i don't know how to deal with inexperienced players that don't want to be shown how to play. :sad:
KittenWarrior 08-15-04, 05:07 PM	Well, if you can't make them understand that metagaming ultimately makes the experience less fun, they might not be D&D material. How does your DM respond to these situations? Cheers, KW
Mitchell 08-16-04, 04:49 AM	Sometimes it's not game experience, it's maturity and life experience. If they can't understand the difference between in game and out of game, then there is nothing you can do but explain(and explain, and explain...) until they start to appreciate the difference themselves. Yeah, when I was a little kid I would try to see what my Christmas presents were through the paper, but now, many Christmas' later, I hardly touch my gifts until I open them, and thank everyone for thinking about me. Time has this effect on people. Remember my paladin? I've got to retire him. The party that I hoped to provide an example for only wants me for my tactical knowledge and an extra body. They certainly don't want me to tell them that looting the tomb of a good and noble family is not a good thing to do and won't advance our mission, they just want to believe that there might be a gold piece buried with them or something. I told my DM that I would be sitting out a couple of levels after we finish this little adventure, and I would come back with a new character. In the meantime, I'm going to be the official DM's assistant and start working up my new guy. It's sort of a video game mentality. Most don't really punish you for antisocial behavior, but they do reward you for aquiring things... The more you have, generally, the better you are. In my case, this translates into free looting of the elven clerics corpse, with not even a peep of objection from the elven cleric in the party. In yours, it doesn't matter how you got the info, just that it is had. Maybe a little note passing is in order. The DM could prepare most major encounter notes ahead of time, and if a player learns something, pass them the note (in this case "You see a bird overhead, but that's all."). If someone wants to share the info, fine. But maybe some of the players will like knowing something someone else doesn't. Eventually, this may translate into less metagaming. I know my DM used to make spot, search, and listen rolls for everybody because if player B saw player A roll a 1 on their listen roll, they would always want to listen also. I just told them that if they say they heard nothing, then they heard nothing. Until I opened the door to a supposedly quiet room and saw a bunch of orcs having a party, their ears were as good as mine. Time is the only answer that I have. I hope your experience is better than mine (if the DM and his wife weren't friends of mine, I wouldn't even be playing). Later.
Ipsissimus 08-18-04, 01:55 PM	For beginners who are eager to play but just don't know how to roleplay it as well as you want to...just do a play on words and give them real life examples. - are you evil - what kind of abilities do you have could be subsitituted for - what gods do you worship (from conan the barbarian) - i see you have a bow, hunter perhaps? this sparks conversation and interaction with NPC's/PC's that is interesting and can lead to information about them without being too evasive. how about this: - you're walking down the street and you see a shady character, you ask him "are you evil?" how silly does that sound and how realistic would that scenerio ever happen with your friend? Never...okay .0000001%. - you're walking down the street and see a really fit guy/girl, do you say "what kind of abilities do you have?" no, you might get a wierd look and a smack in the head. You might ask, wow you have a great body...how much can you bench or how often to you work out? That might get you an answer rather than a dirty look. With the bird flying over head and everyone but say me missing it, I ask the DM...can I make an Intelligence check on why everyone decided to look up? The DM is usually fair if the request is reasonable. the only result, everyone would get a partial action before rolling init...and I would probably get hit with bird droppings. I'm glad even our metagamers metagame when they metagame...that means, I got notes from other players to do something tactically but I'd say...well i'm a paladin and normally I would just charge in and not wait for you to cast an area spell that would blanket the opposition with acid and hinder their movement. sorry mr. wizard, I rolled higher than you and you never went over this battle plan with me in previous sessions. CHARGE! or I rolled a really crappy disable device check, oh well...I open the chest. (knowing I probably will spring a trap if there is one). Your new adventurer's will learn through experience and by your actions. coach them don't condem them or get frustrated...even our newest player is after a few games with only a fraction of D&D experience compared to our vets is roleplaying better than the rest of us...irony really. Remember, you were an inexperienced player at one point as well. :cool:
danielinthewolvesden 08-18-04, 02:30 PM	I have found that new players -either young or just inexperienced- are best brought into the game one at a time. OR- all at once in a training game.
trapspringer 08-18-04, 06:06 PM	I have given this some thought, and think that the best way to show a newb how to play is to have an experienced person show up for 1 (one) game. This will allow them to see (and make them understand) that the game doesn't restrict them the way a video game does. They can say things like, "I want to try to climb up that wall." Otherwise, they will tend to require leading and will seldom 'think' like a person who knows that thought is allowed.