Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gurthoron 10-09-05, 12:39 AM	Howdy all. I may be playing my first ever cleric in a few days, and am looking for advice on how to fight a cleric effectively. Its a level 5, aiming for the Radiant Servant of Pelor prc. I just want to make sure I can mix it up in melee as well. Level 5, straight cleric preferable. I'm open to advice on feats, spells, and combat tactics as I usually play non-spellcasters. I'm fairly sure this sort of thing has been addressed before, so links to those threads would be nice too. Thanks in advance for any responses.
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-09-05, 12:54 AM	Don't let the cleric die! Oh, and check out the Character Optimization boards, here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
LordofNightmares 10-09-05, 01:20 AM	If you are playing Human or Dwarf, First level Cleric, Second level as a Fighter, the continue on as a Cleric. It may sound odd, but it a very effective path to follow, especially if you have the War domain. But sicne you are working for Pelor, Sun and Healing are probabally your domains, and if so, then use your bonus Fighter Feat to to get Weapon Focus in your favored weapon (I prefer quarterstaff with a few feats put into two weapon fighting or Heavy Mace).
solbergb 10-09-05, 02:19 AM	Well it depends. Are you a divine caster (ie, a flexible caster who will mix offensive magic, defensive magic, healing and a small amount of direct combat aided by spells)? Are you medic/support (mostly focused on healing/buffing)? Are you actually a melee character with spells? Something else? If you are the only cleric in the party, you are probably best off in the first role. That means do NOT dilute your caster levels for any reason at all (no multiclassing, no PRC's that don't give full caster progression). The trick of playing a cleric is first establish your role, then choose spells to support all the kinds of bases you want to cover, then you have to detatch and watch the developing situation and choose the CORRECT one of your many abilities, the one that is needed right now. If a party member is about to die, now is not the time to cast divine power and wade into melee. That way leads to a sure 5000gp cost for the party, and a level loss for your valued companion. Healing him might also not be the answer though. If the incoming damage is more than you can heal, you would do better to do something about the incoming damage - sometimes by blocking with a spell like a wall of stone or something like obscuring mist to destroy visibility - sometimes with something more aggressive that removes the source of the damage from the land of the living, or incapacitates him (clerics have a fair assortment of save or XXX spells...but the enemy may make his save and if you guess wrong...dead party member....healing is usually more "sure" but not as flashy) Generaly a cleric should only melee when he's got nothing better he needs to be doing. Self-buffs are the devil - and a cleric needs them to melee well. Any round in combat you spend buffing only yourself, you might as well have stayed home as far as the rest of the party is concerned. A party can get into a LOT of trouble if you are spending 3 rounds casting divine power, rightous might and divine favor before helping out. Party buffs, like prayer, aren't a problem. They help you fight, but they also help everyone else. Self buffs though, should be done outside of combat unless nothing else will serve. Parties with no "real" fighters tend to have a "medic support" caster in addition to the "cleric tank", and most clerics serious about melee invest in ways to either cast their key buffs persistently or at least quickened. Healing by contrast, isn't a self buff. If you need healing, you are contributing if only by being a target, so not going down is the most important thing you can do (a bleeding cleric is a REAL problem for the party...stay on your feet). Defensive buffs should be done out of combat or as a specific reaction to a known threat. It's ok for the cleric to spend a round casting death ward on himself as the spectres approach, because if he gets drained, who's gonna turn them? It would have been better to have it pre-cast, but sometimes you don't know what you're going to run into or when. A reactive self-buff is like healing. Casting "shield of faith" while the front line is getting mauled though, is a wasted action. Cast it on the guy standing in front. If that guy is you, and there isn't another cleric, then consider just investing in better permanent items so you are comfortable standing there without short-term buffing. It's a fine line. If you have a round free, with nothing obvious to do, casting a low level helpful buff like shield of faith or prot evil doesn't hurt, if you don't think you'll need it later. Just don't do it when every action is needed right now.
spoogemonkey 10-14-05, 05:11 PM	the key to making your cleric is in the Domain selection. Because you have Already chosen Pelor - you have already made the bulk of your decisions. Take a look at Pelor's doamin spells - and see if they are going to help you do what you envision for your character - if not.... then think about a different god (or make one up) that uses the domains you want. One of the more effective clerics I ever played used the trickery domain which gave her invisibility.... which allowed her to get right up behind the beat-sticks in the party and keep THEM fighting. Keeping your stick going is often more effective than fighting in melee yourself. There are also Healing domains which enhance the amount of healing you do. But, all clerics have access to the full array of cleric spells.... but not the ones provided by the domains. I also had a cleric once that used the Plant domain - and got Entangle - a VERY useful low level spell. But if you are looking at making a fifth level cleric - check out the first 6 spells in the domain and see what is most useful.
Aldarionn 10-15-05, 04:09 AM	Ok, I'm not sure if Pelor has the War domain (my books are in my car, it's after midnight, and I'm lazy...what can I say? :P ), but if he does I would suggest taking it, because you can then use his favored weapon in melee, because you gain focus and proficiency with it for free, saving you feats. I would then keep up a Magic Weapon spell, or several if you have the slots. Since you are a good Cleric (serving Pelor I would assume so) you can cast any Cure spell spontaneously, sacraficing a spell slot to do so. So basically just keep a spell list of useful (non healing) spells like Lesser Restoration, Remove Poison/Disease/Fear, Inflicts, searing light, etc... and just give up their slots when you are forced to heal. As soon as you can, I recommend keeping a Righteous Might spell on your list because it makes you large (if I have the right spell) and you gain +8 STR and CON from the size increase. This will help you in melee, and all around survival. As far as other tips, I would go with Mithral armor, full plate if you can, and eventually buy Celestial Armor at higher level. Don't worry too much about enhancement bonuses on your weapon. Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon spells will eliminate the need for it, so eventually just put Holy or a Bane effect on a +1 weapon to save money. As for stats, obviously WIS is your primary concern, so your highest roll should go there, but CON and STR are probably your best options for your second/third highest stats if you are looking to fight in melee (CON is probably the second most important stat for all classes with the exception of Monks, who need DEX and WIS first). INT is really not that important on a Cleric because you do not have many class skill choices to begin with, but CHA is important if you want to have good Turning abilities. It might also be wise to buy Gloves of Dextarity, because it will help you win initiative, and later if you wear Celestial Armor, it will increase AC. As for skills, always max out Concentration and Spellcraft. If you have high Charisma maybe max out Diplomacy, and Knowledge (Religeon) is probably not a bad skill to have for a Cleric. Heal might also be worthwhile if you run out of slots for healing spells and need to stabalize a fallen party member. This is the general template I use to build my good Clerics for campaigns, and it usually works out well. Clerics are a fun class to play (probably my favorite), and when played right they can often make nearly as good of Fighters as actual Fighters, due to their ability to heal and buff themselves. Most of all though I suggest making the character to YOUR liking. If you dislike a character made with these ideas and tips then don't play him/her. A character should be fun for its player to play and should be suited to its player's personality. If something is fun but less optimal, then play that character, just don't gimp yourself so that you are worthless to the party :D Aldarionn
Aldarionn 10-15-05, 04:31 AM	Well it depends. Are you a divine caster (ie, a flexible caster who will mix offensive magic, defensive magic, healing and a small amount of direct combat aided by spells)? Are you medic/support (mostly focused on healing/buffing)? Are you actually a melee character with spells? Something else? If you are the only cleric in the party, you are probably best off in the first role. That means do NOT dilute your caster levels for any reason at all (no multiclassing, no PRC's that don't give full caster progression). The trick of playing a cleric is first establish your role, then choose spells to support all the kinds of bases you want to cover, then you have to detatch and watch the developing situation and choose the CORRECT one of your many abilities, the one that is needed right now. If a party member is about to die, now is not the time to cast divine power and wade into melee. That way leads to a sure 5000gp cost for the party, and a level loss for your valued companion. Healing him might also not be the answer though. If the incoming damage is more than you can heal, you would do better to do something about the incoming damage - sometimes by blocking with a spell like a wall of stone or something like obscuring mist to destroy visibility - sometimes with something more aggressive that removes the source of the damage from the land of the living, or incapacitates him (clerics have a fair assortment of save or XXX spells...but the enemy may make his save and if you guess wrong...dead party member....healing is usually more "sure" but not as flashy) Generaly a cleric should only melee when he's got nothing better he needs to be doing. Self-buffs are the devil - and a cleric needs them to melee well. Any round in combat you spend buffing only yourself, you might as well have stayed home as far as the rest of the party is concerned. A party can get into a LOT of trouble if you are spending 3 rounds casting divine power, rightous might and divine favor before helping out. Party buffs, like prayer, aren't a problem. They help you fight, but they also help everyone else. Self buffs though, should be done outside of combat unless nothing else will serve. Parties with no "real" fighters tend to have a "medic support" caster in addition to the "cleric tank", and most clerics serious about melee invest in ways to either cast their key buffs persistently or at least quickened. Healing by contrast, isn't a self buff. If you need healing, you are contributing if only by being a target, so not going down is the most important thing you can do (a bleeding cleric is a REAL problem for the party...stay on your feet). Defensive buffs should be done out of combat or as a specific reaction to a known threat. It's ok for the cleric to spend a round casting death ward on himself as the spectres approach, because if he gets drained, who's gonna turn them? It would have been better to have it pre-cast, but sometimes you don't know what you're going to run into or when. A reactive self-buff is like healing. Casting "shield of faith" while the front line is getting mauled though, is a wasted action. Cast it on the guy standing in front. If that guy is you, and there isn't another cleric, then consider just investing in better permanent items so you are comfortable standing there without short-term buffing. It's a fine line. If you have a round free, with nothing obvious to do, casting a low level helpful buff like shield of faith or prot evil doesn't hurt, if you don't think you'll need it later. Just don't do it when every action is needed right now. Hmm, it appears we have very differing opinions on style of play for a Cleric. I'm a big advocate of self buffs, because a DM will often go after the Cleric in a party with monsters (it's even in some of the round-by-round tactics given for creatures in the Monster Manual. "...use Finger of Death on party member that is more likely to fail the fortitude save, like a Cleric or Wizard...). Giving Oneself +8 STR and +8 CON will not only increase the damage you are able to put out, but will increase your chances of passing saves, and your overall HP which gives you greater survivability. Spending the first 2 or 3 rounds of combat casting buffs on yourself so that you can fight alongside the party fighter (and often do more damage than him) seems like a good solution to me, because a fighter that cannot go 2 or 3 rounds with an enemy without needing to be healed is not much of a Fighter. You will still have the spell slots later to cast heals where they are needed, and buffs that affect the party, but you will also be ready when that Gnoll Captain comes charging past the engaged Fighter to take your head off. It's important to note though that as a party advances in level, there is less and less that a Cleric can do to buff his party mates, because magic items that increase stats and enhancement bonuses on armor often do not stack with the bonuses provided by buffs that Clerics can cast (Bears Endurance, Bulls streingth, Shield of Faith, etc...). Those first 2 or 3 rounds are better spent preparing yourself for combat in those situations, because a smart DM WILL get you into combat weather you want to fight or not. Aldarionn
VerinBlod 10-15-05, 08:56 AM	Seeing as you want to be a Radiant servant of Pelor I would take sun and healing domains for the empower and maximize healing spells. If you also want to be effective in melee you should go the divine metamagic persistent spell route. The fastest way to get persistant divine power is by being a human and taking the feats extend spell, persistant spell, divine metamagic and extend spell. That way you can make divine power a 24 hour buff which nets you with the BAB of a fighter your level + 6 strength and 1 hp/level. You could have this at level 6. It will only cost you your turn undead attempts. Upon entering RSoP you get greater turning attempts egual to 3 + cha mod. So you can still destroy undead :)
MachinaDeus 10-16-05, 02:32 PM	You might considering going with one of the cleric archer builds found floating around these boards. Allows you to do decent damage from range so you can save more of your spells for buffing/healing allies. :)
rkr1970 10-16-05, 03:23 PM	Seeing as you want to be a Radiant servant of Pelor I would take sun and healing domains for the empower and maximize healing spells. If you also want to be effective in melee you should go the divine metamagic persistent spell route. The fastest way to get persistant divine power is by being a human and taking the feats extend spell, persistant spell, divine metamagic and extend spell. That way you can make divine power a 24 hour buff which nets you with the BAB of a fighter your level + 6 strength and 1 hp/level. You could have this at level 6. It will only cost you your turn undead attempts. Upon entering RSoP you get greater turning attempts egual to 3 + cha mod. So you can still destroy undead :) I agree. You'll want a high Wis and Cha, too. And remember to take EXTRA TURNING, as well as EXTRA TURNING and EXTRA TURNING, sprinkled with "metaturning" feats and several Divine feats (these feats and the positive energy burst use up turn attempts per day at an alarming rate). Improved turning, empower turning, quicken turning, divine metamagic, spur death's touch (Libris Mortis), and even elemental smiting, are great choices. At 5th level of RSoP, take Glory as your bonus domain (the granted power is worth it even without the great spells). A radiant servant has 2 strengths, healing and turning undead (if you take Sacred Exorcist after 10 levels of RSoP, you be sure to take undead as a favored enemy and remember to add the conecrated presence to turning checks). By focusing on these two areas, you bring a lot of power to the party. As a cleric in general, you are going to be decent in combat unless you have bad physical scores. But a RSoP isn't meant to be a battle tank. Take plenty of multi-round offensive spells, like spiritual weapon, then you can sit back firing your crossbow while having 2 or 3 spells pound on the enemy. You can conceivably have the most attacks in a single round of anyone in the party and never even get close to a monster. Then, when undead (and, at higher levels, evil outsiders) show up, you don't have to worry about how many you turned. It will be more of a case of how fine a dust they became. Also, if you buy or make equipment, try to get things that play to your strengths. Sacred shields, greater holy symbols, etc. A well made RSoP could destroy 40-50 HD of undead by 20th level. Many evil outsiders will fear you as well, for good reason. At epic levels, the feats positive energy aura and planar turning are two must haves.
fatal error 10-16-05, 03:39 PM	As stated above, divine metamagic is where it's at unless you fight TONS of undead, thne you may want the actual turn attempts. I played a fun cleric based around hold person, he'd use divine metamagic and heighten spell to get the save DC up quite high, we'd roll through anything that was humanoid.