Advice Re: Rogue/Swashbuckler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice Re: Rogue/Swashbuckler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Doedipus
06-11-07, 09:59 PM Hello! I currently have a lv 2 Rogue in my new campaign, and I've noticed that he's kind of lacking in battle. We're a small party, and we don't even really have a cleric. We'll be adding one or two more players soon, so I'm not 100% sure how it'll play out...

Basically, though, there's not enough people in the party to be a good opportunist/sneak attacker. Would it be wise to take levels 1-3 in Rogue to get the abilities like Evasion, and then go to a Swashbuckler?

It'd work out especially well as my main stats are INT & DEX, along with CHA. Things like Weapon Finesse will help with offense, and then I'll get both Evasion and Grace for dodging. The d10 for HD with a Swash would certainly rock, and I'll start with a ton of skill points from the Rogue.

What do you think? I've been playing DnD for years, but always part time, and I don't have much in-game experience. Thanks for your advice!
Salla
06-11-07, 10:16 PM NEVER take more than three levels of Swashbuckler. The class is horrible. :) You're much better off going Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 17 than vice versa.
Cariyaga
06-11-07, 11:17 PM It's better than fighter...Besides, I like the concept.
Salla
06-11-07, 11:19 PM It's better than fighter...Besides, I like the concept.

I would take the contrary position that the Fighter, as bad as it is, outstrips the Swashbuckler.
loaba
06-11-07, 11:24 PM 3 Levels of Swash is dirty good times and when you combine it with either Scout or Rogue it just becomes sexier. I'd ask the guy how he felt about building towards Thief Acrobat as well.
windscar18
06-11-07, 11:37 PM 3 levels of Swashbuckler. No more, no less.

There's a multitude of combat variations of Rogues as PrCs. Invisible Blade is a favorite of mine, personally.
tahngarth40
06-12-07, 02:05 AM 3 levels of swashbuckler and picking up Daring Outlaw, or whatever the name of the feat from the Complete Scoundrel that stacks those levels for your grace bonus and sneak attack damage is not a bad route.

And the invisible blade's super feint getting the errata stick to once per round really hurt.
Otto the Bugbear
06-12-07, 07:13 AM You might also consider some of the modified swashbuckler's done by various people in an attempt to make it an actual 20 level class.

I'll plug mine, just because (dsenchuk.googlepages.com/swashbuckler).
MagicMouth
06-12-07, 07:17 AM How about a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist, then?
Solian
06-12-07, 07:27 AM How about a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist, then?

Duelist isn't bad, the only problem is that u need no armour on to use most, if not all, of their abilities. If your DM allows it, ask him weather your allowed to wear light armour as well for their abilities. If not, theirs no point.
bob_the_great
06-12-07, 08:06 AM I'll second the suggestion of the feat daring outlaw. it lets you stack rogue and swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

daring outlaw is an instance where swashbuckler is worth taking beyond 3rd. full bab + d10 + sneak attack is pretty nice.

*edit* daring outlaw is from complete scoundrel
JellyPooga
06-12-07, 08:10 AM Duelist isn't bad, the only problem is that u need no armour on to use most, if not all, of their abilities. If your DM allows it, ask him weather your allowed to wear light armour as well for their abilities. If not, theirs no point.

Then again, if you take Invisible Blade too, you get 2x your Int mod added to your AC. Add in a Level of Monk and you can add your Wis mod to AC too.

Something like: Monk (1)/Rogue (4)/Swashbuckler (3)/Invis. Blade (5), Duelist (5)

With Dex, Int and Wis 20 nets you a 30 AC without any other additions. You also get to add twice your Int mod to piercing attacks' damage (I believe). If you're worried about multiclassing penalties, drop a couple of levels of Rogue and add them to Duelist or Monk
runestar
06-12-07, 08:19 AM Then again, if you take Invisible Blade too, you get 2x your Int mod added to your AC. Add in a Level of Monk and you can add your Wis mod to AC too.
Or take the kung fu genius feat, thus letting you add thrice your int mod to AC...:D

2 lvs of monk nets you good saves, evasion and combat reflexes. Well worth it.:)
Doedipus
06-13-07, 04:27 PM Hot damn, folks. Thanks for all the great replies!

I actually don't have the Complete Scoundrel yet. I'm sorry I forgot to mention that. I also forgot to mention that my character is the "Mr.Charisma Party Leader" kind of guy. He used to be a street performer that used that as a cover for thieving and spying.

In other words, a straight-up fighter or monk would give me some great stats, but it really wouldn't work out. My original concept had him with a main hand dirk and off-hand whip, and I planned on pursuing feats like improved trip & improved disarm. What do you folks think about that? Is it worth all of those slots?

Also, I like the idea of being able to stack the swash & rogue abilities, but I'm a bit worried that I'll be losing a ton of skill points. As of right now, I'm starting with a +2 INT modifier, so I start with 40 skill points as a lv 1 Rogue. Do you think the Swash benefits outweigh the skill points I'll lose?

Thanks again to all of you folks for your advice. This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for!
JellyPooga
06-13-07, 04:42 PM If you're going more Mr.Charisma Party Leader route, then the skill points you get from Rogue are probably more important than the B.A.B you get from Swash. If you want to go down the Nifty Moves Combatant route, rather than strait up fighter type, then Swash is probably a better option to focus on initially. Either way, you don't want to be taking more than 3 levels of Swash (it just depends what order you take levels in). If you're looking at using a Whip, it might be prudent to pick up a level or two of Bard for the proficiency (rather than burn a Feat on it). You'll also get a bit of handy spellcasting too and won't lose too many skill points (the B.A.B. you lose might hurt though...).
citizencoyote
06-13-07, 05:43 PM Also, I like the idea of being able to stack the swash & rogue abilities, but I'm a bit worried that I'll be losing a ton of skill points. As of right now, I'm starting with a +2 INT modifier, so I start with 40 skill points as a lv 1 Rogue. Do you think the Swash benefits outweigh the skill points I'll lose?

Three levels of swashbuckler won't hurt your skills too much, and will greatly improve your combat abilities (if you're a Dex based combatant, at least, which most rogues are). Note that the 5th level substitution level from the PHB2 for swashbuckler replaces the ridiculous dodge bonus with a better AC bonus if you dual wield, and this ability would then improve with your rogue levels if you take the Daring Outlaw feat. It makes Swash 5 a little bit more attractive, but don't go beyond that. If you're not DW, then 3 levels definitely is the sweet spot.
Salla
06-13-07, 05:52 PM If you've got Tome of Battle, the Warblade has Diplomacy as a class skill (along with most of the Swashbuckler skills), and a full BAB, and actual useful class abilities. :)
Doedipus
06-16-07, 11:51 AM Very cool, folks. The more I think about it, I believe I'll start as a rogue, and then take 3 swash, and go back to rogue. I just can't afford to lose that many skill points with the initial creation, especially as my DM is going to allow Skill Tricks.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Doedipus 06-11-07, 09:59 PM	Hello! I currently have a lv 2 Rogue in my new campaign, and I've noticed that he's kind of lacking in battle. We're a small party, and we don't even really have a cleric. We'll be adding one or two more players soon, so I'm not 100% sure how it'll play out... Basically, though, there's not enough people in the party to be a good opportunist/sneak attacker. Would it be wise to take levels 1-3 in Rogue to get the abilities like Evasion, and then go to a Swashbuckler? It'd work out especially well as my main stats are INT & DEX, along with CHA. Things like Weapon Finesse will help with offense, and then I'll get both Evasion and Grace for dodging. The d10 for HD with a Swash would certainly rock, and I'll start with a ton of skill points from the Rogue. What do you think? I've been playing DnD for years, but always part time, and I don't have much in-game experience. Thanks for your advice!
Salla 06-11-07, 10:16 PM	NEVER take more than three levels of Swashbuckler. The class is horrible. :) You're much better off going Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 17 than vice versa.
Cariyaga 06-11-07, 11:17 PM	It's better than fighter...Besides, I like the concept.
Salla 06-11-07, 11:19 PM	It's better than fighter...Besides, I like the concept. I would take the contrary position that the Fighter, as bad as it is, outstrips the Swashbuckler.
loaba 06-11-07, 11:24 PM	3 Levels of Swash is dirty good times and when you combine it with either Scout or Rogue it just becomes sexier. I'd ask the guy how he felt about building towards Thief Acrobat as well.
windscar18 06-11-07, 11:37 PM	3 levels of Swashbuckler. No more, no less. There's a multitude of combat variations of Rogues as PrCs. Invisible Blade is a favorite of mine, personally.
tahngarth40 06-12-07, 02:05 AM	3 levels of swashbuckler and picking up Daring Outlaw, or whatever the name of the feat from the Complete Scoundrel that stacks those levels for your grace bonus and sneak attack damage is not a bad route. And the invisible blade's super feint getting the errata stick to once per round really hurt.
Otto the Bugbear 06-12-07, 07:13 AM	You might also consider some of the modified swashbuckler's done by various people in an attempt to make it an actual 20 level class. I'll plug mine, just because (dsenchuk.googlepages.com/swashbuckler).
MagicMouth 06-12-07, 07:17 AM	How about a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist, then?
Solian 06-12-07, 07:27 AM	How about a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist, then? Duelist isn't bad, the only problem is that u need no armour on to use most, if not all, of their abilities. If your DM allows it, ask him weather your allowed to wear light armour as well for their abilities. If not, theirs no point.
bob_the_great 06-12-07, 08:06 AM	I'll second the suggestion of the feat daring outlaw. it lets you stack rogue and swashbuckler levels for sneak attack. daring outlaw is an instance where swashbuckler is worth taking beyond 3rd. full bab + d10 + sneak attack is pretty nice. edit daring outlaw is from complete scoundrel
JellyPooga 06-12-07, 08:10 AM	Duelist isn't bad, the only problem is that u need no armour on to use most, if not all, of their abilities. If your DM allows it, ask him weather your allowed to wear light armour as well for their abilities. If not, theirs no point. Then again, if you take Invisible Blade too, you get 2x your Int mod added to your AC. Add in a Level of Monk and you can add your Wis mod to AC too. Something like: Monk (1)/Rogue (4)/Swashbuckler (3)/Invis. Blade (5), Duelist (5) With Dex, Int and Wis 20 nets you a 30 AC without any other additions. You also get to add twice your Int mod to piercing attacks' damage (I believe). If you're worried about multiclassing penalties, drop a couple of levels of Rogue and add them to Duelist or Monk
runestar 06-12-07, 08:19 AM	Then again, if you take Invisible Blade too, you get 2x your Int mod added to your AC. Add in a Level of Monk and you can add your Wis mod to AC too. Or take the kung fu genius feat, thus letting you add thrice your int mod to AC...:D 2 lvs of monk nets you good saves, evasion and combat reflexes. Well worth it.:)
Doedipus 06-13-07, 04:27 PM	Hot damn, folks. Thanks for all the great replies! I actually don't have the Complete Scoundrel yet. I'm sorry I forgot to mention that. I also forgot to mention that my character is the "Mr.Charisma Party Leader" kind of guy. He used to be a street performer that used that as a cover for thieving and spying. In other words, a straight-up fighter or monk would give me some great stats, but it really wouldn't work out. My original concept had him with a main hand dirk and off-hand whip, and I planned on pursuing feats like improved trip & improved disarm. What do you folks think about that? Is it worth all of those slots? Also, I like the idea of being able to stack the swash & rogue abilities, but I'm a bit worried that I'll be losing a ton of skill points. As of right now, I'm starting with a +2 INT modifier, so I start with 40 skill points as a lv 1 Rogue. Do you think the Swash benefits outweigh the skill points I'll lose? Thanks again to all of you folks for your advice. This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for!
JellyPooga 06-13-07, 04:42 PM	If you're going more Mr.Charisma Party Leader route, then the skill points you get from Rogue are probably more important than the B.A.B you get from Swash. If you want to go down the Nifty Moves Combatant route, rather than strait up fighter type, then Swash is probably a better option to focus on initially. Either way, you don't want to be taking more than 3 levels of Swash (it just depends what order you take levels in). If you're looking at using a Whip, it might be prudent to pick up a level or two of Bard for the proficiency (rather than burn a Feat on it). You'll also get a bit of handy spellcasting too and won't lose too many skill points (the B.A.B. you lose might hurt though...).
citizencoyote 06-13-07, 05:43 PM	Also, I like the idea of being able to stack the swash & rogue abilities, but I'm a bit worried that I'll be losing a ton of skill points. As of right now, I'm starting with a +2 INT modifier, so I start with 40 skill points as a lv 1 Rogue. Do you think the Swash benefits outweigh the skill points I'll lose? Three levels of swashbuckler won't hurt your skills too much, and will greatly improve your combat abilities (if you're a Dex based combatant, at least, which most rogues are). Note that the 5th level substitution level from the PHB2 for swashbuckler replaces the ridiculous dodge bonus with a better AC bonus if you dual wield, and this ability would then improve with your rogue levels if you take the Daring Outlaw feat. It makes Swash 5 a little bit more attractive, but don't go beyond that. If you're not DW, then 3 levels definitely is the sweet spot.
Salla 06-13-07, 05:52 PM	If you've got Tome of Battle, the Warblade has Diplomacy as a class skill (along with most of the Swashbuckler skills), and a full BAB, and actual useful class abilities. :)
Doedipus 06-16-07, 11:51 AM	Very cool, folks. The more I think about it, I believe I'll start as a rogue, and then take 3 swash, and go back to rogue. I just can't afford to lose that many skill points with the initial creation, especially as my DM is going to allow Skill Tricks. Thanks again for all of your help!