Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hydryh 06-02-07, 10:55 AM	Right, so I've noticed a huge number of "what should my paladin do?" threads, so right now I'm turning the keyboard over to Count Ian Boydson, paladin. Ask him whatever you like about paladining, and he'll draw on his decades of experience battling the forces of evil and chaos. Please be kind enough to ask in-character; otherwise you might weird him out. If vitally necessary, I'll step in to translate. *Hydryh plops into comfy chair to wait*
Eldritch_Lord 06-02-07, 11:08 AM	My good friend Count Boydson, I know that paladins are required to hold up both the tenets of Good and the tenets of Law, so why is it that paladins are only gifted by the gods with the ability to find and strike down evil creatures rather than both evil and chaotic creatures? Also, what would an experienced paladin such as yourself do in a situation where you would be forced to choose between two evil acts with no way around them? I ask this because many of the paladins I have the pleasure of knowing are routinely forced to choose between killing a defenseless innocent or letting hundreds of others die; has this situation arisen for you?
Hydryh 06-02-07, 01:15 PM	...why is it that paladins are only gifted by the gods with the ability to find and strike down evil creatures rather than both evil and chaotic creatures? While I do not claim to know the motivations of the gods, I have thought long on this matter. It is my belief that while evil, as all know, is inherently destructive, chaos can act as a force for good. For example, I once had the opportunity to campaign alongside a soreceror by the name of Pyros Wildheart. While his heart and deeds were as varied as his name would imply, he always acted for the good of the common man. His... unique... viewpoint even saved my life and that of our other companions on more than one occasion. I have since come to believe that Chaos, if cuided by a Good heart, can be beneficial, not just to its own, but also to the followers of Law, in helping us to stay on our toes, so to speak. Therefore, while those of a Chaotic bent can be quite irritating at times, I do not think that they must necessarily be eradicated from the world, as is the case with evil. Also, what would an experienced paladin such as yourself do in a situation where you would be forced to choose between two evil acts with no way around them? I ask this because many of the paladins I have the pleasure of knowing are routinely forced to choose between killing a defenseless innocent or letting hundreds of others die; has this situation arisen for you? All praises to Heironeous, it has not. Even musing on such a situation is deeply distressing, and my heart goes out to these paladins you speak of. While the nature of the "others" you mention is unclear, I feel it safe to assume that you do not speak of creatures that are inherently of predominantly evil. Were that the case, the choice would be clear: save the innocent, and pray that the gods may give the others a more favorable life, their next time in the world. (Ah, I've been spending too much time among the druids...) If the "others" are mixed between Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, as, say, the residents of a randomly chosen human city would be, one must, sadly, sacrifice the lone innocent. As a master of the ways of Law once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... Or the one." If the paladin's hand is truly forced, however, I do not personally consider it an evil act, as the paladin would literally be seeking the lesser of two evils, and therefore striving for the greatest good. My views and those of the gods do not always mesh, however, and should one fall from grace for this act, the only right course is to atone and redouble your efforts to avoid being stuck in such a situation. I hope I was of some help, friend. Until next we meet, may Goodness be your sword and the Law your sheild. -- Count Ian Boydson, Farrowkeep, Rotellus. 893 A.E.
darkdragonk 06-02-07, 01:24 PM	How do you convince your DM.., er God that the orphange started it?
Hydryh 06-02-07, 01:33 PM	How do you convince your god (DM) that the orphange started it? If the orphanage truly did start it, your god would know. If not, then you may find yourself falling--and rightly so!
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 01:42 PM	Sir Tristian here, what is your opinion on the following: Greyguards (present company excluded if you must (OOC I use Tristian on all of these, he IS a Greyguard)), Shadowbane Inquisitors, Warlocks and Hexblades. I have obsereved a wide variation in attitudes from various paladins in these sistuations.
Hydryh 06-02-07, 01:48 PM	Sir Tristian here, what is your opinion on the following: Greyguards (present company excluded if you must (OOC I use Tristian on all of these, he IS a Greyguard)), Shadowbane Inquisitors, Warlocks and Hexblades. I have obsereved a wide variation in attitudes from various paladins in these sistuations. I'm sorry, Sir Tristan, but I do not know of these things. Perhaps if you clarified...? [While I'm pretty knowledgable (IMO, obviously) about Paladins, I've only actually played the Core books, except for that terrible Planesacpe campaign back in the pre-3.0 days. So yeah, if you describe 'em, Ian can opine.]
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 01:52 PM	(Ah sorry, Greyguard=Kind of a "Black Ops" paladin, by level ten he han simte any alignment (cause in theory ANYONE can get in the way of the mission) and break the paladin's code without recrimation (they are chosen for their dedication, they do what needs to be done but other paladins can't do. Shadowbane Inquisitors=A rouge Paladin hybrid PrC. Warlocks=A base class that gets spell like abilites at will as it's main feature. Alignment any evil or chaotic, powers derived from pacts with deamons (either by them or their ancestors). Hexblades=Base class Warrior/arcane caster that uses a class ability known as the hexbalde curse, any non-good alignment.)
Hydryh 06-02-07, 02:15 PM	(Ah sorry, Greyguard=Kind of a "Black Ops" paladin, by level ten he han simte any alignment (cause in theory ANYONE can get in the way of the mission) and break the paladin's code without recrimation (they are chosen for their dedication, they do what needs to be done but other paladins can't do. Shadowbane Inquisitors=A rouge Paladin hybrid PrC. Warlocks=A base class that gets spell like abilites at will as it's main feature. Alignment any evil or chaotic, powers derived from pacts with deamons (either by them or their ancestors). Hexblades=Base class Warrior/arcane caster that uses a class ability known as the hexbalde curse, any non-good alignment.) These "Greyguard" are abominations! Anyone who so flagrantly disregards honor is not a paladin, of any sort! The Shadowbane Inquisitors you describe may be acceptable, but I would have to meet and know more than a few before I could truly accept them. Warlocks... The evil ones are obviously enemies to any paladin. As for those who follow Chaos or Chaos and Good together, it would depend upon the individual, though if it was the warlock himself who sealed that dark pact, he would never have my trust. As for the others, you cannot help how you are born, so they would not be banned from my company unless their souls were as tainted as their bodies. Those Hexblades, you say, cannot serve Good? They are not first on my list of friends, any more than a cleric of Hextor would be, whether or not she herself was evil.
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 03:15 PM	These "Greyguard" are abominations! Anyone who so flagrantly disregards honor is not a paladin, of any sort! It is NEVER an easy choice, beleive me. It is NEVER taken lightly. But can you honestly say there have never been times when you could have saved the lives of the inocent with a lie? I spend much of my time hunting down and infiltrating Dark Cults. There I can sever the head of the orginisation right away rather than chew my way through his lackeys and have his escape to threaten others elsewhere. I keep an eye on other Greyguards and they keep an eye on me. We know we walk a fine line, but who else would in ourt stead? Somtimes The Lords of Heaven need a dirty hand.
DrMorganes 06-02-07, 03:26 PM	Grey Guards are not indiscriminate killers or bullys! As a matter of fact, only the best-trusted paladins are invited to join the Grey Guard. The Guard is NOT able to act "without recrimination"; they are just as beholden to their codes as non-Guard. Rather, their position of trust gives them a touch more leeway in using less savory methods. A Guard who steps beyond the paladin's code will still find his powers stripped until he is able to atone for his transgression, but the order's relationship with its patron deity is such that the priest granting absolution has an easier time convincing the Higher Lords of the paladin's continued worthiness. (OOC Note: The cleric casting atonement finds the XP cost of the spell is waived with regard to Grey Guard.)
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 03:40 PM	OOC:I seem to recall they have less of an issue as they level, I though at level 10 they could do and not suffer, but I have read the book, I don't own it.
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 03:51 PM	On a differant note questing at the moment. I am trying to orginise an ambush of a "merchant caravan" (in truth a cultist group) that is collecting various reagents for a ritual. AS IT stands I am outnumbered and out classed (their leader is some form of higher devil, I chanced my arm with him once and got lucky, I only died.) and could use all the help we can get. ASK for me by name at teh temple of Heronious in the villadge of Elshmire if you can.
DrMorganes 06-02-07, 03:54 PM	Shadowbane .... there's a guild to watch closely! They claim righteousness, but frequently possess the skills and use the methods of common thieves. Still, there IS an undeniable holiness about them. They are able to call judgment upon any they deem guilty, not just those who are demonstrably evil. The guild's Stalkers are some of the best infiltrators I've encountered, but they, too, walk a fine line between righteousness and bigotry. (OOC Notes: Shadowbane Inquisitor is a paladin/rogue multiclass Prestige Class listed in Complete Adventurer. The PrC allows the character to freely multiclass between paladin and rogue levels, and the features of the PrC enhance the skills of each. Additionally, a Shadowbane Inquisitor may Smite anyone he deems worthy of retribution! The sister class, the Shadowbane Stalker, combines cleric and rogue levels and is focused more on stealth to the Inquisitor's martial prowess.)
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 03:58 PM	OOC:This is why I love the two PrCs. They are the sort of hero you might need, but not the kind you want to see.
calronmoonflower 06-02-07, 05:13 PM	These "Greyguard" are abominations! Anyone who so flagrantly disregards honor is not a paladin, of any sort! Greyguards seek the lesser evil in any situation. They are held to the same code as a paladin, but may violate that code in only seeking to do good. The Shadowbane Inquisitors you describe may be acceptable, but I would have to meet and know more than a few before I could truly accept them. However, a shadowbane inquisitor may destroy a whole town to kill one demon. Harming innocents by using the justication of the greater good is often the path of fallen paladins. You may need to keep a close eye on those of this class as they lean to the judgmental and can smite anyone regardless of alignment based on no more than suspicion.
Hydryh 06-02-07, 05:32 PM	Somtimes The Lords of Heaven need a dirty hand. Be that as it may, they shall not have mine. I would rather--and have had to, on occassion--demolish a temple and track down the high priests over and over, rather than sneak about like an assassin. You seem pure at heart; thus I will attempt to restrain my offense, but your path is one I shall never walk.
Evil DM Mk3 06-02-07, 05:42 PM	I know. Few do. But I would rather sneak around like an assassin than see one more incoent come to harm by their actions than can be stoped by doing so.
Comus 06-02-07, 06:11 PM	I have seen more good done with a knife in the dark than a sword on an open field of combat. I do not consider my personal honor to be worth the life of even a single innocent. The enemies of good should be killed with no regard for fairness or mercy, for they have none themselves. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. Do you agree that the best way to destroy evil is to do so completely? To crush it into dust? To use the death of your enemies as a message to others that evil will not be tolerated, and that death is the price paid in its practice? Do not the ends justify the means, so long as the ends serve the will of my God? Such is my code. What is yours? ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
YamiSouru 06-02-07, 07:41 PM	What are you thoughts of Malconvokers. The summoners who summon fiendish creatures and trick them into doing good?
Khadmus 06-02-07, 08:24 PM	hey wats up with all the annoying paladins taht stop me from doing all teh cool stuff? im not a badguy...they make you all look like stupid. (Hail! I would like to ask you about your opinions on the more...zealous paladins. They often seek to thwart my actions, claiming that they are "evil" (If you're curious, I have definite proof that I am not, in fact evil, nor are my deeds). These people give paladins a bad name.)
Devil Gnasher 06-02-07, 10:00 PM	I have seen more good done with a knife in the dark than a sword on an open field of combat. I do not consider my personal honor to be worth the life of even a single innocent. The enemies of good should be killed with no regard for fairness or mercy, for they have none themselves. While both the first and second points are reasonable I would have to say, that all punishment should be dealt out according to the actual crime committed or attempted. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. As to "burn the heretic" I would need to know what you mean before I can pass judgment. On the other hand the statement "kill the mutant" should be considered unworthy of a paladin. What sort of genocidal bigoted excuse for a paladin are you any way. Look no further than Professor Xavier, his students and their defenders the X-Men, some of whom even exhibit the behavior and conduct of a true and worthy paladin. I'd also like to know what you mean by purge the unclean. Do you agree that the best way to destroy evil is to do so completely? To crush it into dust? To use the death of your enemies as a message to others that evil will not be tolerated, and that death is the price paid in its practice? Do not the ends justify the means, so long as the ends serve the will of my God? I would say that you must always be cautious about actions you take, for as righteous as may think they are at the time, they may lead you towards darkness and corruption. It was once said "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." And no, the ends do not always justify the means. Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse. OOC: Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer is a major NPC in a (yet unnamed) campaign setting I'm devising. Marshal of Liberty is the Chaotic Good version of my consecrated knight. Deathslayer is a 2nd edition necromancer kit converted by Lord Mortanius into a 3rd edition necromancer class variant. Airgeadcoill is the capital of the elven republic in the same unnamed and unfinished campaign setting.
Hydryh 06-03-07, 02:26 PM	I have seen more good done with a knife in the dark than a sword on an open field of combat. I do not consider my personal honor to be worth the life of even a single innocent. Perhaps I chose my words poorly; I do not wish to imply that my honor is worth more than an innocent's life, but rather that the dishonorable path merely brings us down, closer to the level of the evil we fight. If a paladin cannot act with honor, what point is there for the citizenry to do so? We are not only to protect them, but to set an example. The enemies of good should be killed with no regard for fairness or mercy, for they have none themselves. To me it would depend on the individual enemy you speak of. A soul that can be turned to good should be just as celebrated by us as a paladin's turning into a blackguard is by the dark powers. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. ((*Hydryh steps forward* I'll take this one, Ian. Comus, as an applicant to the Adeptus Astartes, I think the only proper response is the battlecry of my Legion: "All is dust!" *grins* See you on the field, Loyalist. *Hydryh sits back down as Ian returns, giving Hydryh a piercing look*)) Do you agree that the best way to destroy evil is to do so completely? To crush it into dust? To use the death of your enemies as a message to others that evil will not be tolerated, and that death is the price paid in its practice? Do not the ends justify the means, so long as the ends serve the will of my God? I do agree that those who will not return to the side of goodness should be destroyed, their souls sent on in the hope that they will learn in the outer realms what they did not here. However, "the ends justify the means" has long been the cry of evil, and I am ever suspicious of those who speak it. You may be well off reconsidering your faith, Sir Vaughn Doum. You may also wish to apply to your sovereign for a legal change to your name, sir; as it stands, you might frighten the citizenry if they hear your name before your profession. Such is my code. What is yours? ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. "To Defend those who cannot defend themselves! To Save the souls of those who are willing! To Crush those who will not turn from Evil! Use Goodness as your sword and the Law as your shield! Roar like a lion and shine like the Sun! Let Evil know that this day is its last!" --Boyd of the Lion's Shield, founder of the Boydson line, at the Battle of Zakresh Pass, 427 A.E. This is my family's Code, but any who wish to take it up are welcome to do so. Travel in peace and good health. Count Ian Boydson. Farrowkeep, Rotellus. 893 A.E.
Hydryh 06-03-07, 02:27 PM	What are you thoughts of Malconvokers. The summoners who summon fiendish creatures and trick them into doing good? I do not believe that any good can truly be wrought from evil. I would much rather that they summoned the fiends into a deathtrap.
Hydryh 06-03-07, 02:29 PM	hey wats up with all the annoying paladins taht stop me from doing all teh cool stuff? im not a badguy...they make you all look like stupid. (Hail! I would like to ask you about your opinions on the more...zealous paladins. They often seek to thwart my actions, claiming that they are "evil" (If you're curious, I have definite proof that I am not, in fact evil, nor are my deeds). These people give paladins a bad name.) *After listening to the translator, Ian replies:* I'm afraid I would have to know more about the actions in question to give you a proper answer, good sir. Count Ian Boydson. Farrowkeep, Rotellus. 893 A.E. - - - - - - P.S. - Sir Dehmer, while I appreciate your intent and have heard it said that you embrace the path of Chaos, please be so kind as to ask before you repliy to questions meant for me. -I.B.
Mattarias 06-03-07, 02:47 PM	Ah, well, well, a do-gooder convention? Eh, why not? I'll think I'll join in. Ian was it? Hail, friend. I am known as Mattarias D'Etidrias, half-elven bard. Being a bit new to this whole mucky adventuring buisness, I have been wondering a few things; How and why does one become a.. whatsit.. Paladin! that's it. How and why does one become a paladin and have to agree to such a restrictive code? It seems that doing so prevents you from enjoying some of the more fancy things of life. *Mattarias twitches, then quickly hold his sword to his ear* Oh, and Mononoke wants to know- Do you ever have fun? Being a paladin and all? -Yours, in a brotherly manner. Mattarias.
Evil DM Mk3 06-03-07, 02:56 PM	For those who are interested my code runs thusly: I shall protect the weak and the inocent, for they are holy. I shall turn asside temptation whereever I shall find it. I shall take the light into the darkness. I shall be hope, conviction and faith. I shall do the taks ahead of me and I shall never falter.
darkneolink 06-03-07, 02:59 PM	If you don't mind my brother in arms let me answer this. First let me introduce myself. I'm sir Igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame. You hear the call to be a paladin. Your soul sees the damage evil beings and evil actions bring unto inocents and you know that it must be stoped. Yeah we have a code, but a true paladin knows the spirit of his code not just the word... if you only follow the word you'll fail when you have to protect the inocents... sad but true. If I ever have fun? well actually I do... I really enjoy good music and theatre... I love wandering around the land and meet new people... fun shouldn't be the same as a pervertion. I enojy a good ale with my closest friends who are my companions. I understand that they don't have the same standards I have... but I try to teach by example. I hope my answer is good enough to your question. - Sir Igneo Argentlam Paladin of the silver flame
Mattarias 06-03-07, 03:19 PM	If you don't mind my brother in arms let me answer this. First let me introduce myself. I'm sir Igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame. You hear the call to be a paladin. Your soul sees the damage evil beings and evil actions bring unto inocents and you know that it must be stoped. Yeah we have a code, but a true paladin knows the spirit of his code not just the word... if you only follow the word you'll fail when you have to protect the inocents... sad but true. If I ever have fun? well actually I do... I really enjoy good music and theatre... I love wandering around the land and meet new people... fun shouldn't be the same as a pervertion. I enojy a good ale with my closest friends who are my companions. I understand that they don't have the same standards I have... but I try to teach by example. I hope my answer is good enough to your question. - Sir Igneo Argentlam Paladin of the silver flame Ah, Thank you kindly, sir, you answered our questions completely. Now, If I may, I have another for either you, my fiery friend (I have as great deal of respect for people with flame-tied names), or Master Ian; Must one be devoted to a 'deity'? Because, honestly, one of me adventuring comanions, a healer I refer to as 'C.C.', keeps rambling on about this 'Pelor' fellow, and, personally, I think he's half-crazy. *Mattarias holds his sword to his ear again, as a glint appears in his eyes.* Ah, so does Mononoke.
Evil DM Mk3 06-03-07, 03:21 PM	There is however a quandry I wish to lay in front of my fellow Paladins. Now there is this city. It is a thriving, prosperous multicultural metropolis. It hold much echonmic power. From miles and miles abroad immigrants arive of every type to make their homes here, it has been to war once in living memory but that war was ended with minimal loss of life by the efforts of the City Leader and prominent guardsmen. The city is wealthy, sanitation is not what it might be but as a rule the citisens are happy and content. There is a thriving if rather old fashioned and elitist arcane univeristy in the city, creating some of the most promient and revolutionary recent arcane discoveries. BUT Theives, women of the night, and even assassins have LEGAL guilds in this ciy (As well as clown, beggers and every trade you care to name, even lawyers). Theft has almost become anotehr type of taxation, with licances and receipts! The city is run by an unelected (at least it seems that way, there seems to be a revolution or civil war every time the leader is replaced but very little really happens) tyrant. The current ruler is a trained assassin and mandged the city like some massive machine. He is disliked by all but maintains his power by playing groups off each other so that deposing him is never ideal for anyone. He is a claculating man who will throw men to their deaths if it is nessissary with no hesitation. To him the ends will ALLWAYS justify the means. BUT The city, for the first time in well over 200 years it would seem, WORKS. As I said before it is a burgeoning mutlicutural metropolis. The leader is a true genius at politics both at home and abroad, all potential enemies are staved off by comerce and finance, rather than armies. BUT It transpires that the true heir to the long lost royal family lives in the city and that he is aware of his status, he merely choses not to take up the mantle. He is also, prehaps, the most honourable and gentle soul I have ever encountered, including I am sorry to say all present here today. He is a captain of the guard. What should I do do you think?
Fatalis_902 06-03-07, 04:14 PM	G'day, Boydson, name's Aust, an elven druid. I have two questions for you now. 1) Is it a good thing to kill a baby to save 100,000 people? Assume they are standard people, in a standard city, with some evil, some good, but mostly neutral individuals. 2) As you are a paladin, do you truly have a moral obligation to eat evil babies? If so, what kind of wine do you prefer to compliment the tastes of evil baby? Further, does hot sauce truly compliment the taste of evil baby at all well?
Devil Gnasher 06-03-07, 04:35 PM	P.S. - Sir Dehmer, while I appreciate your intent and have heard it said that you embrace the path of Chaos, please be so kind as to ask before you repliy to questions meant for me. -I.B. Well, I have to apologize to you Sir Boydson. I just don't like when those who are better qualified to serve Bael the Warlord Avernus or Apollyon the Destroyer call themselves paladins, knights benefactors or marshals of liberty. Such madness does not belong to our honorable profession. It's an abomination and blight upon the honor of all good men and women. I also have a code of honor. This is it. 1. I am not to follow any unjust, needless or merely stupid law. Unless its purpose is to defend the lives, bodies, sanctity of thought and mind, freedom and or property of others, it's a stupid law. 2. Not to deprive life, liberty, property or pursuit of happiness unless as a punishment for a crime or to prevent one. 3. A crime shall consist of any action that either by intention or negligence causes harm to life, liberty, property or pursuit of happiness, unless it is as a punishment for such a crime. 4. Torture, rape and murder are irredeemably evil acts. As such, it's morally unacceptable to use such "tactics" or "field options" as mentioned above. 5. In addition to combating the forces of darkness and resisting it's lure, I am honor bound to defend those innocent of any crime, liberate the enslaved and oppressed and to perform all good deeds I can when ever the need arises. 6. I am to defend other people from external threats. However I am not required to defend others from themselves. This means that I will not go out of my way to protect those who willingly place themselves into harm's way for sport. This does not mean that I will tolerate any aspect of a code of honor that calls for either the violent death one's lover, centuries of needless war or suicide to avoid shame. Such aspects of a code of honor are at best forged by the most depraved and unenlightened individual and at worst devised by fiends themselves. Most likely devils, who wish to control and dominate others out of a belief of superiority over all Creation. Those who maintain and enforce such abominable codes are just as oppressive and tyrannical. Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Khadmus 06-03-07, 04:39 PM	name's Aust,... 2) As you are a paladin, do you truly have a moral obligation to eat evil babies? If so, what kind of wine do you prefer to compliment the tastes of evil baby? Further, does hot sauce truly compliment the taste of evil baby at all well? Great name! Although not a paladin, I can most definitely answer "no". Paladins should not eat babies. The wine question is inapplicable given the answer to the first question. And lastly, hot sauce does not go well with most varieties of baby flesh (assuming, of course, that the species in question has offspring referred to as "baby")
Ithshunter 06-03-07, 05:05 PM	I,Trell the sorceror have a question from my early adventures: What is your take on vicious animals,not dire,just vicious.Are they in the right in defending territory? Or is it evil if it hinders with a good person's quest? I've just always wondered...
darkneolink 06-03-07, 05:10 PM	I,Trell the sorceror have a question from my early adventures: What is your take on vicious animals,not dire,just vicious.Are they in the right in defending territory? Or is it evil if it hinders with a good person's quest? I've just always wondered... Well my good friend the answer is quite simply an animal is an animal... and animals are not good nor evil... they just are. They don't have free will they relly on their instinct. Therefore they are not evil. Those who uses animals for evil purposes are the ones that should be taken care of if not by a Paladin by a good Druid -sir Igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame
Evil DM Mk3 06-03-07, 05:11 PM	Anyone care to comment on the city? Cookies offered to those who get what non-DnD fictional place I am talking about.
Ithshunter 06-03-07, 05:12 PM	Thanks for the help.
Devil Gnasher 06-03-07, 05:19 PM	Anyone care to comment on the city? Cookies offered to those who get what non-DnD fictional place I am talking about. Do you mean Ankh-Morpork?
Evil DM Mk3 06-03-07, 05:21 PM	:cookie: :pumpkin: and why not a :dragon: too (remeber not to let him near mirrors) Seriously though, how does a DnD paladin deal with that city?
Fatalis_902 06-03-07, 05:38 PM	Well my good friend the answer is quite simply an animal is an animal... and animals are not good nor evil... they just are. They don't have free will they relly on their instinct. Therefore they are not evil. Those who uses animals for evil purposes are the ones that should be taken care of if not by a Paladin by a good Druid -sir Igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame Heck with a good druid, though being one myself, any druid should stop the abuse of animals. The METHODOLOGY of stopping animal abuse will differ from druid to druid based on alignment. While I myself would likely just free the animals, heal/hurse the injured ones, and then meet out some appropriate punishment, likely a ban from entering certain groves that serve as animal sanctuaries, and explaining why animals need protection, not abuse, from us, an evil druid would likely kill him outright, and a neutral one would probably return the animals' collective pain to their abuser. Come to think of it, I might be tempted to return the pain of the animals to their abuser, or kill him. But I can't stand animal abuse.
Evil DM Mk3 06-03-07, 05:40 PM	Tristian smiles at the memory of all of the times he has had no allies save his loyalest freind of all. "Nor can I, nor can I."
Hydryh 06-03-07, 05:56 PM	G'day, Boydson, name's Aust, an elven druid. I have two questions for you now. 1) Is it a good thing to kill a baby to save 100,000 people? Assume they are standard people, in a standard city, with some evil, some good, but mostly neutral individuals. Well met, Aust. It is never a good thing to kill a baby, but in this example it is the least evil of the two options. Doing so may cause you to lose your powers, but since you were motivated by a desire to do good, atonement should not be far out of reach. 2) As you are a paladin, do you truly have a moral obligation to eat evil babies? If so, what kind of wine do you prefer to compliment the tastes of evil baby? Further, does hot sauce truly compliment the taste of evil baby at all well? Absolutely not! The only time I eat babies is in the form of veal or lamb--never sentient babies. With veal I enjoy red wine, while lamb virtually requires white--preferably a nice '87 from the Farrow vineyards. I am uncertain what you mean by hot sauce, although Cook Sarah has been known to use too much pepper in her cream sauce. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
Fatalis_902 06-03-07, 06:02 PM	Do you know what jalapenos are, Sir Boydson? Have her squeeze the juice from a few of those into cream sauce, them have her dry and grind the remains and mix that in. You'll beg for the pepper back.
Sajek 06-03-07, 06:15 PM	You are on your way to stop an evil wizard from summoning a monstrous devil to do his bidding. While on the way, a poor commoner family asks you to save their son from cultists before they sacrifice him. By the time you complete one task, there will be no time left to do the other. What do you do, save the child or stop the devil?
Maekrix_Waere 06-03-07, 07:01 PM	What are your thoughts on me, an Elven Ninja who values the tenents of Goodness and Freedom, both creating and using poisons for the side of light? Related, would you consider it an evil action if one of your paladin brothers sought to smite me for it? And, if he tries to, am I justified in striking him down?
Devil Gnasher 06-04-07, 01:48 AM	"Sir Ian, would you consider any of these songs appropriate for paladins or similar warriors? Chariots of Fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU&mode=related&search=), We Are the Champions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU&mode=related&search=) and We Will Rock You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iikKzQwgBJc&NR=1)." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Evil DM Mk3 06-04-07, 03:14 AM	You are on your way to stop an evil wizard from summoning a monstrous devil to do his bidding. While on the way, a poor commoner family asks you to save their son from cultists before they sacrifice him. By the time you complete one task, there will be no time left to do the other. What do you do, save the child or stop the devil?This is easy. Save the son. There is nothing to stop you from destroying or danishign the devil once it has been bound.
Khadmus 06-04-07, 03:14 PM	This is easy. Save the son. There is nothing to stop you from destroying or danishign the devil once it has been bound. There is nothing to stop you from resurrecting the son once he has died, with that logic. And leaving the devil seems to involve more potential deaths.
Evil DM Mk3 06-04-07, 03:17 PM	No. When a creature is sacrificed there is frequently more than just their life at stake. Their very soul may be in adnger of destruction. Also I exel at breaking cults.
StormKnight 06-04-07, 05:52 PM	There are many paths to defend good and thwart evil, but to my mind a true paladin must always follow the path of good. The 'kill one innocent to save a hundred' presumes knowledge that we mortals simply do not have. Each action is a stone throw into the water; we cannot know what ripples it will cause and what effects will result. That is why we seek so strongly to follow a code, and to do what is good. Good can only come from good; no matter how hard it is to see or how fearful the future seems, a paladin stands strong with the belief that her good actions will bring good to the world. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. Such is not the saying of the paladin. Such is the saying of the soon-to-be-eaten by the Tyrannid hordes. :p
Viseryn 06-04-07, 08:23 PM	What are your opinions on Paladins who choose to become Shadowdancers to strike at evil more easily? (you were talking about sneaking around before)
Comus 06-05-07, 01:05 AM	Thank you for answering, Count Ian Boydson, but I must yet wonder about your methods. Your code is acceptable, for the most part. What worries me is that you continue to advocate attacking the forces of evil on equal terms, even to the point of considering mercy. Let us take an example. Say there was an orcish horde on the warpath. Exact numbers are unimportant, but for the sake of this example, there are so many that you could not hope to best them alone, even as corrupt and weak as they are. You are alone, and the orcs will wash over a nearby settlement like a green tide in only a few days unless you stop them. What would you do? I suspect you would either try to challenge the leader of the orcs to single combat... or, perhaps more likely, would request parley with him and try to change his mind. Perhaps you would run to the town and tell them to flee, ceding the victory to the orcs. Or perhaps you would attempt to rally them, and watch as the town's defenders died one by one. I, however, would strike at them. There are three places one must attack the enemy. First, the hands, to stop them from wielding their weapons. Whatever ammunition they had stockpiled would be destroyed. Their mounts would be slain. I would kill as many sentries and warriors as I could without revealing myself. Next, the heart, to stop them dead in their tracks. I would destroy their supplies, their food and water. If I was allowed use of poison, I would use it here, but it is unfortunately something my order forbids. As it is, the orcs would be forced to live off the land, slowing them down and demoralizing them. Lastly, one must attack the mind. Sentries must be killed and left as messages to demoralize. Leadership must be struck down while they sleep. Most importantly, any shamans or primitive clerics of their evil gods must be killed. I would have the orcs know fear, for fear is the greatest weapon of all. I would shatter their morale, leave them afraid to even blink should the shadows take them as it did so many of their lone sentries. When they finally got the order to leave, to flee and do no more evil - delivered using a corpse with a message either pinned to it or carved into it, they would follow it gratefully, thankful to at last know how to make the terror stop for a time. There is no soul more ready for conversion than one full of fear. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Evil DM Mk3 06-05-07, 02:26 AM	Whilst yout tactics are admirablely well thought through, you should try Cult Breaking sometime, you are aware that the challange for power would work are you not? No Orc leader can afford to backdown from such a challange, he would lose face and thus his warriors. In adition most orc armies of any real size are held together by fear of the warlord, kill him and the individual factions will break appart and no doubt attack EACH OTHER.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 10:24 AM	Do you know what jalapenos are, Sir Boydson? Have her squeeze the juice from a few of those into cream sauce, them have her dry and grind the remains and mix that in. You'll beg for the pepper back. I have never heard of these... fruits? However, I shall ask after them the next time I pass through Silvercrest.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 10:30 AM	You are on your way to stop an evil wizard from summoning a monstrous devil to do his bidding. While on the way, a poor commoner family asks you to save their son from cultists before they sacrifice him. By the time you complete one task, there will be no time left to do the other. What do you do, save the child or stop the devil? Assuming that I am, as usual, traveling with my trusted lieutenant ((*Hydryh has a coughing fit that sounds suspiciously like the word "cohort" over and over again")), the wizard Malakym, I would dispatch him to save the boy and ride on to challenge the wizard myself. One must always remember that the burden of saving the world is too great for any single person to bear, be they paladin or no. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
StormKnight 06-05-07, 10:33 AM	Thank you for answering, Count Ian Boydson, but I must yet wonder about your methods. And I must wonder about both your talents and your methods. You must truly be a master of many things to be able to conduct such a campaign of subterfuge and stealth. To be able to sneak consistently past them, and avoid the traps and wards they will surely set. Do you think that the orcs will simply keep setting lone sentries when they realize they are being hunted? Or that Orc warlords, who frequently rise to power over the bodies of their predecessors, sleep deeply and unprotected? The paladins I have known are trained to be the mighty fist of their diety. Thus are they trained in the mastery of battle, the use of powerful armor to stop their foes blades. They are blessed with the power to summon a celestial mount to carry them into the thick of battle. Will your plan protect the town when you are caught sneaking into the orc camp, and surrounded trapped, outnumbered and unarmored (unless you prefer sneaking in full plate) against the orc horde? And even if you succeed, what will be the cost? What will happen when you go to negotiate a truce and are told that the leaders will not listen to you, for they know you are an honorless snake who might strike them down as they sleep if they give you the chance? Will you have inspired any people of the town you are defending to take up the calling of valor and defend their people next time, when you are not there? When you are used to using deception and treachery, will you have built the courage, skill and confidence in your own power to fight in open battle when you have no other choice?
Hydryh 06-05-07, 10:36 AM	What are your opinions on Paladins who choose to become Shadowdancers to strike at evil more easily? (you were talking about sneaking around before) For a Paladin to leave the path is always a sad thing, but the path of the Shadowdancer is not inherently a dishonorable one, from my understanding. It seems their powers may be used either the same way as an assassin's which I cannot approve of, or in a more open method to provide an advantage on an honorable battlefield. To kill a restrained or sleeping opponent is dishonorable. Once battle has been joined, however, the shadows (ntural ones, that is) are as worthy of being yor allies as the light that creates them.
Maekrix_Waere 06-05-07, 10:45 AM	For a Paladin to leave the path is always a sad thing, but the path of the Shadowdancer is not inherently a dishonorable one, from my understanding. It seems their powers may be used either the same way as an assassin's which I cannot approve of, or in a more open method to provide an advantage on an honorable battlefield. What is wrong with Assassins? (OOC: Besides the forced flavour.) What they do, killing, is not an inherently Evil act.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 10:48 AM	Must one be devoted to a 'deity'? Pardon my delayed reply, good sir. Unless you have joined an order of knights that demands the worship of a patron god, you do not have to worship any deity. Your strength as a paladin comes from your own conviction that Goodness and Law must be protected and that Evil must be vanquished. You power your magics and abilities for the most part, by your faith. Therefore, devotion to a deity is not required. I myself hold Heironeous in high regard, for he was a paladin himself before ascending into godhood, but I would never put the teachings of his clerics above the voice of my own conscience. I hope that that is of use to you.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 10:56 AM	What are your thoughts on me, an Elven Ninja who values the tenents of Goodness and Freedom, both creating and using poisons for the side of light? I approve of your aims, but not your methods. Related, would you consider it an evil action if one of your paladin brothers sought to smite me for it? I would have to verify what exactly you had been doing that provoked my battle-brother, but if you had not been doing evil I would assume that he was merely misguided. And, if he tries to, am I justified in striking him down? No. On the other hand, I will not ask you to give your life without struggle--either would simply make him believe further in his erroneous assumption. Rather, I would suggest that you incapacitate him if at all possible. Barring that, assuming you have yet struck to kill, surrender yourself to him. Any paladin worthy of the name will stop long enough to at least search your soul for evil (though he should have done so already), and will not strike you down. And if he is so lost in his bloodlust to strike down an non-evil, unarmed, surrendered foe who has not struck to kill, he is a mad dog and I shall put him down myself.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 11:01 AM	"Sir Ian, would you consider any of these songs appropriate for paladins or similar warriors? Chariots of Fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU&mode=related&search=), We Are the Champions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU&mode=related&search=) and We Will Rock You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iikKzQwgBJc&NR=1)." While none are inappropriate, the only one that truly stirs my blood is "We Are the Champions." That strikes me as an apt song for many a night spent 'round the campfire with good friends. Sir Hydryh wishes that it be known that he enjoys both "Champions" and "We Will Rock You."
Hydryh 06-05-07, 11:33 AM	Thank you for answering, Count Ian Boydson, but I must yet wonder about your methods. Your code is acceptable, for the most part. What worries me is that you continue to advocate attacking the forces of evil on equal terms, even to the point of considering mercy. You seem to think that I am more liberal with mercy than I am. It is to be extended to those who are not evil at heart, and to those evil ones who truly wish to repent. Let us take an example. Say there was an orcish horde on the warpath. Exact numbers are unimportant, but for the sake of this example, there are so many that you could not hope to best them alone, even as corrupt and weak as they are. You are alone, and the orcs will wash over a nearby settlement like a green tide in only a few days unless you stop them. What would you do? I suspect you would either try to challenge the leader of the orcs to single combat... or, perhaps more likely, would request parley with him and try to change his mind. Perhaps you would run to the town and tell them to flee, ceding the victory to the orcs. Or perhaps you would attempt to rally them, and watch as the town's defenders died one by one. Firstly, I would challenge the leader. Orcs are well-known to be proud to a fault and easily routed when leaderless. Parley is not suited for situations where the enemy is already at your door; I can only assume that this notion was offered derisively. Rallying the people is something I would consider only if I truly believed it would help. Sending untrained citizens against an orcish horde is as evil as ignoring their plight. I, however, would strike at them. There are three places one must attack the enemy. First, the hands, to stop them from wielding their weapons. Whatever ammunition they had stockpiled would be destroyed. Their mounts would be slain. I would kill as many sentries and warriors as I could without revealing myself. Agreed, as I am one man againt an army in your exercise. With my own army at my back, though? No. Next, the heart, to stop them dead in their tracks. I would destroy their supplies, their food and water. If I was allowed use of poison, I would use it here, but it is unfortunately something my order forbids. As it is, the orcs would be forced to live off the land, slowing them down and demoralizing them. Again agreed, though your wistful thoughts of poison disturb me. To poison a sentient being goes beyond dishonor in my eyes, and into true evil. The only beings that should use poison freely are the animals and vermin born with it. Any creature with a conscience should abstain from using poison against another. Lastly, one must attack the mind. Sentries must be killed and left as messages to demoralize. Leadership must be struck down while they sleep. Most importantly, any shamans or primitive clerics of their evil gods must be killed. I agree except for your notion of attacking a sleeping foe. Any paladin who commits such an act would do well to fear my blade. I would have the orcs know fear, for fear is the greatest weapon of all. I would shatter their morale, leave them afraid to even blink should the shadows take them as it did so many of their lone sentries. When they finally got the order to leave, to flee and do no more evil - delivered using a corpse with a message either pinned to it or carved into it, they would follow it gratefully, thankful to at last know how to make the terror stop for a time. There is no soul more ready for conversion than one full of fear. I fear that you walk the same path as my elder brother. Please turn back to the light of goodness before all is lost. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
Evil DM Mk3 06-05-07, 11:39 AM	Do you not agree that part of a Paladin's duties and casue is to act as deterant? For example I once used the aid of a dwarf's alchemy to make my armour glow with a faint green glow as I carged a hobgoblin encampment. The fear instilled in them by this act worked more to prevent a reoccurance of the raids they ahd been making than their actual defeat, as they had been defeated before and had returned, wheras here they did not. Some of them started farming. I do not recomend the use of the phosophresance exept in certain circumstances however. Most of the time the night is as much your allay as you mount if you can use it.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 11:39 AM	What is wrong with Assassins? (OOC: Besides the forced flavour.) What they do, killing, is not an inherently Evil act. No indeed, but there is a difference between slaying, let us say, a cleric of Nerull when he is on the field and fully prepared, as opposed to when he is asleep or taking a bath. While that way of a paladin is harder, it is that very difficulty that inspires the people. When you deafeat a foe in the open, on fair terms, you show that light and hope can defeat the forces of darkness and despair. When you murder a man in his bed, you are just that: a murderer.
Hydryh 06-05-07, 11:42 AM	Do you not agree that part of a Paladin's duties and casue is to act as deterant? For example I once used the aid of a dwarf's alchemy to make my armour glow with a faint green glow as I carged a hobgoblin encampment. The fear instilled in them by this act worked more to prevent a reoccurance of the raids they ahd been making than their actual defeat, as they had been defeated before and had returned, wheras here they did not. Agreed! And I find striking terror into the hearts of evildoers by making one's armor glow no more reprehensible than when you do so by standing alone against overwhelimg odds and triumph. It is the sowing of fear with a knife in the dark, or poison poured into a well, that I abhor.
Evil DM Mk3 06-05-07, 11:53 AM	Do you have any sujestions about the city. It is technicaly a tyrrany but the details...
Everdreaming 06-05-07, 12:15 PM	I wish to clarify on warlocks. Whilst many of them are evil, not all are, and it is not necessary to be evil to be a warlock. Whilst most warlocks are descended from demons or devils, or from those that have made pacts with them, some are descended from fey, or even celestials, though admittedly such cases are few. I have written this point of clarification in askance, so that you will not judge warlocks as a whole, based on what some have done. The powers a warlock wields are innate, coming from their ancestors, and sometimes, even those descended from spawn of evil regect their ancestory and are righteous crusaders for the forces of good. Do not judge everyone based on those that are evil. Thank you.
Maekrix_Waere 06-05-07, 06:27 PM	When you murder a man in his bed, you are just that: a murderer. Ah, now here we get into a bit of a snag. There is a GRAVE difference between killing and murder. Murder is a type of killing, the killing of an innocent. I would never say that any type of murder could be construed as pure, or even grey. I am saying that an Assassin who kills Evil creatures has no reason to be Evil, unless he delights in the slaying of all, and has only been able to find those of dark hearts. I may also inform you that, while Assassins do, generally, kill people while they are unprepared, I know of a few who practice their arts upon those who ARE prepared, if not aware of the Assassin's presence. Attacking a fully armed and armoured opponent from the shadows is not necessarily honourable, though that depends greatly upon who you ask, but it is far more honourable then following them home and knifing them during their sleep. Also, from what I know, the Assassin's art is not restricted to killing. The Assassins I know of also have the ability to forge(?) instantly slaying the target, and merely paralyzing them temporarily. Would you consider this a Just/Holy/Honourable way to bring criminals to justice alive?
Devil Gnasher 06-06-07, 12:00 AM	While none are inappropriate, the only one that truly stirs my blood is "We Are the Champions." That strikes me as an apt song for many a night spent 'round the campfire with good friends. Sir Hydryh wishes that it be known that he enjoys both "Champions" and "We Will Rock You." "While we differ in ideological alignment we do share similar tastes in music. That said, "We Will Rock" is my favorite song when thrashing dangerous undead, evil necromancers (a true disgrace to the profession) and an assorted number of walking piles of scum in one sided bad-guy beatings. "Chariots of Fire" and "We Are the Champions" are good songs when riding off into less certain battles. Also, while I am a deathslayer, in addition to being a marshal of liberty, I have noticed a few characters, some of which would be shunned by most necromancers of my persuasion. My question is, would you consider these characters appropriate associates for a paladin, knight benefactor or marshal of liberty as myself? Jack Skellington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Skellington) Sir Shrek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrek_%28character%29) Hellboy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellboy) Elder Gutknecht (the elder and apparently religious leader to the undead from Tim Burton's The Corpse Bride)" -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Mattarias 06-06-07, 12:19 AM	Pardon my delayed reply, good sir. Unless you have joined an order of knights that demands the worship of a patron god, you do not have to worship any deity. Your strength as a paladin comes from your own conviction that Goodness and Law must be protected and that Evil must be vanquished. You power your magics and abilities for the most part, by your faith. Therefore, devotion to a deity is not required. I myself hold Heironeous in high regard, for he was a paladin himself before ascending into godhood, but I would never put the teachings of his clerics above the voice of my own conscience. I hope that that is of use to you. Ah, thank ye, my good man. Allow me to offer my own apologies for my own tardiness. Either way, I feel I know you paladins better now. Unfortunately, I cannot find it within me to follow that path. The way a fire travels is as varied as can be music on the wind. That is my path. Different as our ways may be, I hope we may both forever strive to do good. Should we ever see each other again, hesitate not to exchange greetings. Faretheewell, and may your flame burn bright, even in darkest times. -Mattarias.
Hydryh 06-06-07, 12:52 AM	Also, from what I know, the Assassin's art is not restricted to killing. The Assassins I know of also have the ability to forge(?) instantly slaying the target, and merely paralyzing them temporarily. Would you consider this a Just/Holy/Honourable way to bring criminals to justice alive? To the extent that anything an Assassin may do is honorable, yes.
Hydryh 06-06-07, 01:09 AM	...would you consider these characters appropriate associates for a paladin, knight benefactor or marshal of liberty as myself? Jack Skellington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Skellington) Sir Shrek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrek_%28character%29) Hellboy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellboy) If by associates you mean lifelong allies ((Hydryh has another coughing fit--"Cohort cohort cohort")), then no. None of these beings, with the possible exception of this "Hellboy" individual, are sufficiently dedicated to the light of Good and Law to ride with a paladin in the long term. Mr. Skellington in particular strikes me as quite Chaotic. As for merely associating with them, buying bread from them or some such, none of them are in fact inappropriate. However, I must admit that though I try not to judge based on appearances, Mr. Skellington and Hellboy would have a hard time offering their wares before I was on my guard. The only thing that would likely prevent bloodshed it that I make it a point to always search the souls of those I battle. Since none of these would register as evil I would be wary, for there are ways to hide one's evil, but I would not strike without provocation. And of course, if I knew them as well as I do from these excellent dossiers you have prepared, I would welcome each of them to share some food by the fire before we went our separate ways.
Hydryh 06-06-07, 01:22 AM	Please pardon my long delay in responding, good sir. There is however a quandry I wish to lay in front of my fellow Paladins. Now there is this city. It is a thriving, prosperous multicultural metropolis. It hold much echonmic power. From miles and miles abroad immigrants arive of every type to make their homes here, it has been to war once in living memory but that war was ended with minimal loss of life by the efforts of the City Leader and prominent guardsmen. The city is wealthy, sanitation is not what it might be but as a rule the citisens are happy and content. There is a thriving if rather old fashioned and elitist arcane univeristy in the city, creating some of the most promient and revolutionary recent arcane discoveries. So far, this city sounds like many I have known. Theives, women of the night, and even assassins have LEGAL guilds in this ciy (As well as clown, beggers and every trade you care to name, even lawyers). Theft has almost become anotehr type of taxation, with licances and receipts! The city is run by an unelected (at least it seems that way, there seems to be a revolution or civil war every time the leader is replaced but very little really happens) tyrant. The current ruler is a trained assassin and mandged the city like some massive machine. He is disliked by all but maintains his power by playing groups off each other so that deposing him is never ideal for anyone. He is a claculating man who will throw men to their deaths if it is nessissary with no hesitation. To him the ends will ALLWAYS justify the means. So, the city is held by the powers of Law and Evil? The city, for the first time in well over 200 years it would seem, WORKS. As I said before it is a burgeoning mutlicutural metropolis. The leader is a true genius at politics both at home and abroad, all potential enemies are staved off by comerce and finance, rather than armies. Hmmm... unusual for an Evil ruler. Perhaps he is not, though he is surely not Good. It transpires that the true heir to the long lost royal family lives in the city and that he is aware of his status, he merely choses not to take up the mantle. He is also, prehaps, the most honourable and gentle soul I have ever encountered, including I am sorry to say all present here today. He is a captain of the guard. What should I do do you think? By the sound of things, this captain of the guard is himself a paladin, foregoing the duties of his birth for the duties of his heart. I would advise you to make what changes you can in the city, starting at the level of the citizenry, rather than in the upper reaches of government. With luck you can inspire the people to better their way of conduct, them take your results to the ruler. If he is, by some chance not evil, he will be happy to incorporate your changes, as they will mean more growth and stability for the city. If the ruler is in fact evil, you must weigh the stability he brings against the chaos that would be wrought by toppling him. Many a well-intentioned soul has done more evil than good by eliminating an evil ruler without thinking of the long-term consequences.
DX2052 06-06-07, 01:52 AM	Consider this <background>A Rogue that is unknowingly an agent of a the leader of country A, finds a Barbarian down on his luck and straveing, the Rogue gives the Barbarian 3 hunks of meat, the pair agree that in return the Barbarian owes the Rogue three favors (one for each hunk of meat) for feeding him, years later down the line the brother of country A's ruler's leads a band (that includes the prementioned Rogue) retaliating ageist the attack of it's neighbor, country B, by the empire of country C, during a fight the Rogue finds the Barbarian working as a mercenary for the Empire of C. The Rogue then uses one of his favors to bring the Barbarian to country A's side.</Background> The night after the battle the Barbarian challenges the Rogue to a duel, with the prize being the contract of the deal, if the Barbarian wins he does not need to preform the the remaining 2 favors, the Rogue agrees with with the conditions that A: his prize for wining being an additional favor and B:he picks the time and place. During the following night the Rogue wakes the Barbarian up and announces that it is time for the duel. The Rogue easily wins, as the Barbarian is quite tired. Were the Rogue's actions dishonorable, or was the Barbarian foolish to allow this to happen.
Devil Gnasher 06-06-07, 03:35 AM	If by associates you mean lifelong allies ((Hydryh has another coughing fit--"Cohort cohort cohort")), then no. None of these beings, with the possible exception of this "Hellboy" individual, are sufficiently dedicated to the light of Good and Law to ride with a paladin in the long term. Mr. Skellington in particular strikes me as quite Chaotic. As for merely associating with them, buying bread from them or some such, none of them are in fact inappropriate. However, I must admit that though I try not to judge based on appearances, Mr. Skellington and Hellboy would have a hard time offering their wares before I was on my guard. The only thing that would likely prevent bloodshed it that I make it a point to always search the souls of those I battle. Since none of these would register as evil I would be wary, for there are ways to hide one's evil, but I would not strike without provocation. And of course, if I knew them as well as I do from these excellent dossiers you have prepared, I would welcome each of them to share some food by the fire before we went our separate ways. "First I'd like to explain a few things about one of these four. Sir Shrek, who is obviously Chaotic in nature, has certain strongly Good points. One when Donkey asked if he could spend the night in the ogre's swamp Shrek could have driven the obnoxious beast from his lands, but didn't. Second, Shrek put his own life in danger to save that of a creature who irritated him to no end. He did this for the simple reason that it was the morally right thing to do. Third, when he learned that Princess Fiona truly was in love with him, he went to her to say it under the advice of Donkey, instead of allowing his own pride to dominate him. Fourth, when fighting Lord Farrquod's guards, Shrek showed more concern for the freedom and safety of Fiona, the woman whom he early thought hated him, than for his own life. Sixth, with the insistence of his wife Fiona, he allowed his friend Donkey to stay near his swamp hut while Donkey's wife, Dragon, was away. Seventh, Shrek spared of his would be assassin Puss in Boots, after defeating him in battle, against the suggestions of his companion Donkey. Eighth, Shrek was willing to give up the life he knew thinking that it would make Fiona happy. Ninth, when storming the castle of Far Far Away, Shrek endangered himself by stopping to save Gingy, the gingerbread man in the group, from falling into the moat. Tenth, Shrek forgave his father in-law, King Harold, the man who made the contract against Shrek because the King made that contract under duress from the Fairy Godmother. Is he Lawful Good? He’s not Lawful by a long shot. Is he Neutral Good? Not really Neutral Good either. Is he perfect? By no means is he perfect what so ever. Therefore Shrek is best thought of as a rather imperfect Chaotic Good. Would he be too Chaotic for a paladin? Yes, but he wouldn't be too Chaotic for a marshal of liberty like myself." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-06-07, 12:36 PM	Beware. For I offer before you, good sir Paladin, the crux of all questions. I beg you to explain the fundamental problem of the Paladin ethos. Whilst the ethics of virtue and the deontological ethics of one's code of honor or edict of their god may align, the ethics of utility often do not. How can a Archon, God, even a Paladin who's goal is the mass utility of a people, ever hope to satisfy all three ethos towards 'Good'? Certain actions perceived as good by 'utilitarian' based ethics are viewed as evil through the lens of virtue based ethics, or deontological based ethics. I ask you to define 'good'. The OBJECTIVE good. The GOOD of the GODS. THE DIVINE WILL. Since it seems to be fundamentally opposed to all logical ethos. Tell me, good Sir Paladin, why does the code of a paladin fail him so utterly in so many situations? Why does abandoning the childish grip on 'divine law' often result in increased utility of a vast number of peoples? Law Virtue Reality
darkdragonk 06-06-07, 10:02 PM	(K i'll be sierious) My name is Zythkon the Xeph Soulknife (Psonic class, can summon mental blades from mind at will) and Warlock(I beleive your familiar). I beleve deeply in freedom and the stop of slavary. To do this I break in to slave rings and encampments pretending to be a slave then using my psonic and spell-like abilitys kill the slavrs. I just wanted to no your paladin insight on this more dubious form of freedom. (never bothered to learn to spell wel (in character)) Zythkon
Viseryn 06-06-07, 10:51 PM	Beware. For I offer before you, good sir Paladin, the crux of all questions. I beg you to explain the fundamental problem of the Paladin ethos. Whilst the ethics of virtue and the deontological ethics of one's code of honor or edict of their god may align, the ethics of utility often do not. How can a Archon, God, even a Paladin who's goal is the mass utility of a people, ever hope to satisfy all three ethos towards 'Good'? Certain actions perceived as good by 'utilitarian' based ethics are viewed as evil through the lens of virtue based ethics, or deontological based ethics. I ask you to define 'good'. The OBJECTIVE good. The GOOD of the GODS. THE DIVINE WILL. Since it seems to be fundamentally opposed to all logical ethos. Tell me, good Sir Paladin, why does the code of a paladin fail him so utterly in so many situations? Why does abandoning the childish grip on 'divine law' often result in increased utility of a vast number of peoples? Law Virtue Reality Since you attempt to stump a Paladin in this way, I have no regrets saying that, if you do not believe in good, how can you believe you are doing any good asking that question? In any case, Good, and the point of all Paladin oaths, is to be someone who will open up to another who asks for his help, rather than the majority of people who will simply close completely. Not to work for money, or fame, or even mostly to grow stronger, but to help people who need us. In essence, to protect the weak. Perhaps similar to the earthly Bushido, samurai code- Courage, integrity, fortitude(OOC:Not the saving throw), and fealty. However, not fealty to a lord, but rather fealty to humanity. Law is whatever increases order and decreases chaos. To say that, I have to establish order and chaos. In that case, order is like kosmos, or perhaps Navajo hozho- all things are in harmony. Chaos calls for people to rely on their own tendencies rather than the law, the increasing of order, bringing things into harmony. Also- abandoning the grip on law is the wrong path to defeating evil. You claim it increases their utility, and it does. However, there's a reason Paladins "cling" to law. Because Paladins, unlike the people you mention, when fighting evil which thinks that it is justice, wonder- "When this is over, will I end up being "just" like them?", and work to avoid it. By the way, it's not "Divine" good or "Divine" law. Paladins are devoted to Good and Law, not to any particular religion, as Sir Ian established.
Comus 06-07-07, 01:00 AM	Hm. I, Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, will give my view on this. It is likely different from person to person, so perhaps having multiple views will help answer your question... I ask you to define 'good'. The OBJECTIVE good. The GOOD of the GODS. THE DIVINE WILL. Since it seems to be fundamentally opposed to all logical ethos. Tell me, good Sir Paladin, why does the code of a paladin fail him so utterly in so many situations? Why does abandoning the childish grip on 'divine law' often result in increased utility of a vast number of peoples? You want the definition of Good? Fine. Good is actively opposing the forces of darkness and chaos. Good is when a man stands up for what he believes in, not out of personal gain, but because it is what he thinks is right. Good men often come into conflict with each other, because they have different ideas of what is Right. And that's all there really is to it, in my mind. Just following your heart, and doing the right thing even when it's difficult. Sometimes that means stopping to help someone when your friends are tired and simply wish to continue on and rest. Sometimes that means starting a fight when it isn't needed. Sometimes it means stopping a fight that didn't need to get started. Often, it means doing something dangerous. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 10:29 AM	Were the Rogue's actions dishonorable, or was the Barbarian foolish to allow this to happen. Yes to both, good sir. ((Hydryh: Ah, good old Matthew. Never could keep him alive...))
Hydryh 06-07-07, 10:34 AM	Is [Shrek] Lawful Good? He’s not Lawful by a long shot. Is he Neutral Good? Not really Neutral Good either. Is he perfect? By no means is he perfect what so ever. Therefore Shrek is best thought of as a rather imperfect Chaotic Good. Would he be too Chaotic for a paladin? Yes, but he wouldn't be too Chaotic for a marshal of liberty like myself." Please pardon the misunderstanding; I had only written from the perspective of a Paladin, for I was tired from a long night of caring for my son. This Shrek fellow does sound like a fine ally for you, good sir, and I am pleased that your travels have shown that even ogres, skeletons, and devils need not be evil in every case, though I myself have yet to meet such exceptions to the rule.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 10:38 AM	(K i'll be sierious) My name is Zythkon the Xeph Soulknife (Psonic class, can summon mental blades from mind at will) and Warlock(I beleive your familiar). I beleve deeply in freedom and the stop of slavary. To do this I break in to slave rings and encampments pretending to be a slave then using my psonic and spell-like abilitys kill the slavrs. I just wanted to no your paladin insight on this more dubious form of freedom. (never bothered to learn to spell wel (in character)) Zythkon Slavery is never Good, though often backed by the Law. While I would not sneak in in disguise, I cannot say that your methods are fundamentally Evil. I would join you in crushing slavery rings, though I would propose different approaches based on the individual circumstances.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 11:11 AM	Beware. For I offer before you, good sir Paladin, the crux of all questions. I beg you to explain the fundamental problem of the Paladin ethos. Whilst the ethics of virtue and the deontological ethics of one's code of honor or edict of their god may align, the ethics of utility often do not. How can a Archon, God, even a Paladin who's goal is the mass utility of a people, ever hope to satisfy all three ethos towards 'Good'? Certain actions perceived as good by 'utilitarian' based ethics are viewed as evil through the lens of virtue based ethics, or deontological based ethics. I ask you to define 'good'. The OBJECTIVE good. The GOOD of the GODS. THE DIVINE WILL. Since it seems to be fundamentally opposed to all logical ethos. Tell me, good Sir Paladin, why does the code of a paladin fail him so utterly in so many situations? Why does abandoning the childish grip on 'divine law' often result in increased utility of a vast number of peoples? Law Virtue Reality To ask a single mortal to define Good is akin to asking him to slay every demon in the Abyss, but I suspect you knew this already. Thankfully, then, I am not alone. Good Sir Viseryn and Sir Vaughn Doum have already offered their definitions, and done well at it. However, I think you will not be satisfied until you have heard my reply, and so here you are: Love. I firmly hold that the closest one can come to properly defining Good is with the emotion most steeped in it. I am not talking about any one type of love, but rather the whole spectrum of its forms. A paladin is motivated by Love of all that live, even when we must kill. We Love life and the Cosmos as a whole, all the gods' creations, and even more. When a paladin helps an injured man in the road it is because he sees his son, his brother, his father. Love makes the paladin help those in need. When a paladin attempts to save a soul from Evil, to let them convert to Good, it is because he sees himself in his weakest moments. No paladin, not even one born of the celestials, is deaf to Evil's sweet whispers. Those whom we can convert were simply ordinary folk who listened to those dark lies too long. Love makes the paladin try to lift others out of the mire. When a paladin strikes down an evil cleric it is because he sees his daughter, his sister, his mother. Love makes a paladin slay true Evil, as any man would destroy their loved ones if they were turned into zombies. Evil that refuses to be saved is more insidious and destructive than any disease, poison, or magic, and to allow a being to exist while enmeshed in its grasp is truly vile. For a paladin the only thing stronger than the sorrow of being forced to kill is the joy that comes with knowing he has made the world a better place. So-called "utilitarian" good is at best misguided and at worst Evil wearing a mask. The good of the gods is irrelevant. A paladin hears Good in his heart. When the Code fails a paladin, he must either re-evaluate it to ensure that it is in line with Good, or re-evaluate himself and his views. There is no flaw in the paladin's ethos, only in the way we follow it, sometimes. We are only mortal, after all. *Ian smiles* But then, that is my definition of good. As I said, no one mortal can answer your question perfectly. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
BloodDragon 06-07-07, 11:12 AM	Greeting- Count- Boydson *Pronouncing every word carefully and arrogantly* I call myself “Van”. I ask that you prepare yourself for a long winded read. Many people here have already asked you various questions regarding “Which of these two evils would you have to choose” attempting to turn your own belief upon you or get you to admit to an evil acts you have committed. I will be not so far from that crowd, however I’m genuinely interested in your answer to unique my question. I am a Binder. You may have had the pleasure to browse through a book titled the “Tome of Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a).” If not? That’s probably because it’s kept secret by your own order. *Fiddles with the lantern attatched to his belt.* We Binders are Mortals who don’t care to study from dusty old tomes for power or pray and simply hope some God answers. We make "Pacts" binding ourselves with beings know as Vestiges. Creatures beyond life, death, undeath, even far more removed then the far-realm, and rumored to be out of even the reach of Gods themselves. Most Religious sects hunt down Binders to either eradicate or send them to the Tower of Woe for … interrogation. Faiths as diverse as Pelor to Hextor hunt us without hesitation regardless of our own beliefs (Lawful good to Chaotic Evil). I don’t pray homage to the gods myself but there are too many stories of Binders who still uphold traditional beliefs of a specific Deity. (Ex-clerics, though not Ex by choice in some cases) only to the hung by the deity’s very followers the next week. Also since you’re unaware of the “Grey Guard” you may also be unaware of “The Order of Seropanenes” an order put together by the followers of your own god Heironeous, as well as Wee Jas, St. Cuthbert, and Vecna (thou the order isn’t limited to just those religions) in an alliance to lock away or eradicate our kind for good. Not all Binders are evil, not all are good. Not even all Vestiges are Good or Evil (Even our Binders scholars don’t know where most Vestiges lie in regards to alignment), but it’s rumored and strongly suggested, that Evil Gods to Lawful Good Gods alike despise us and urge followers to eliminate Binders on sight. It’s even implied that you don’t have to atone even after killing one in cold blood (Although one would wonder about your future as a Cleric or Paladin). So I wonder Count. What would you do if you ever met such a mortal? Wanted dead by the gods themselves for reasons not even explained to us… Even just in passing? I certainly hope this is a difficult answer, but I’ve been looking forward to such an answer since I started down this path. *Hesitantly places a hand over top of an obviously hidden weapon within his coat. Unsure of which response his is about to receive.*
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 11:34 AM	To ask a single mortal to define Good is akin to asking him to slay every demon in the Abyss, but I suspect you knew this already. Thankfully, then, I am not alone. Good Sir Viseryn and Sir Vaughn Doum have already offered their definitions, and done well at it. However, I think you will not be satisfied until you have heard my reply, and so here you are: Love. I firmly hold that the closest one can come to properly defining Good is with the emotion most steeped in it. I am not talking about any one type of love, but rather the whole spectrum of its forms. A paladin is motivated by Love of all that live, even when we must kill. We Love life and the Cosmos as a whole, all the gods' creations, and even more. When a paladin helps an injured man in the road it is because he sees his son, his brother, his father. Love makes the paladin help those in need. When a paladin attempts to save a soul from Evil, to let them convert to Good, it is because he sees himself in his weakest moments. No paladin, not even one born of the celestials, is deaf to Evil's sweet whispers. Those whom we can convert were simply ordinary folk who listened to those dark lies too long. Love makes the paladin try to lift others out of the mire. When a paladin strikes down an evil cleric it is because he sees his daughter, his sister, his mother. Love makes a paladin slay true Evil, as any man would destroy their loved ones if they were turned into zombies. Evil that refuses to be saved is more insidious and destructive than any disease, poison, or magic, and to allow a being to exist while enmeshed in its grasp is truly vile. For a paladin the only thing stronger than the sorrow of being forced to kill is the joy that comes with knowing he has made the world a better place. So-called "utilitarian" good is at best misguided and at worst Evil wearing a mask. The good of the gods is irrelevant. A paladin hears Good in his heart. When the Code fails a paladin, he must either re-evaluate it to ensure that it is in line with Good, or re-evaluate himself and his views. There is no flaw in the paladin's ethos, only in the way we follow it, sometimes. We are only mortal, after all. *Ian smiles* But then, that is my definition of good. As I said, no one mortal can answer your question perfectly. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E. Ah, yes. The appeal to love. To ethical egoism. A utilitarian ethos - how quaint that you condescend to the remainder of the teleological tree. You reject deontological moral ethos and utilitarian based ethics - the sort that Leaders and the selfless are to use. This, however, has a weakness. A terrible one, good sir paladin. In fact, your entire post is 'argumentum ad consequentiam' - an appeal to the consequences, to love. Its a logical fallacy. You love a woman. You know of an innocent man. Both are in jeopardy. Save which one? The one man knows the cure to a vile disease that accosts two people - and will lead to their death. Your appeal to love would dictate you save just that, the woman you love. Deontological ethos may dictate any number of things. As there are many gods I must reflect upon ethical relativism. Is there a true moral good or merely shades of gray with numerous faces and numerous agendas? You cannot deny the existence of numerous divine beings..all claim righteousness. Which deontological law is correct? Say you have a God which dictates you must follow your heart. You save your love. Say the God dictates you to be selfless. You save the good Dr. McCuresAlot. Say you have no god at all. You are King. You are the divine law as expressed through the omnipresent divine good. As such you have the weight of leadership, the weight of conscience. Save your love? Or save three people - and potentially more in the unforseeable future. Don't you see, now? Love? Law? The Greater Good? They are all misaligned. **The black cloaked wizard leans back in his seat, and taps his fingers rythmically upon ancient tomes of sophist arrogance **
darkneolink 06-07-07, 12:27 PM	Ah, yes. The appeal to love. To ethical egoism. A utilitarian ethos - how quaint that you condescend to the remainder of the teleological tree. You reject deontological moral ethos and utilitarian based ethics - the sort that Leaders and the selfless are to use. This, however, has a weakness. A terrible one, good sir paladin. In fact, your entire post is 'argumentum ad consequentiam' - an appeal to the consequences, to love. Its a logical fallacy. You love a woman. You know of an innocent man. Both are in jeopardy. Save which one? The one man knows the cure to a vile disease that accosts two people - and will lead to their death. Your appeal to love would dictate you save just that, the woman you love. Deontological ethos may dictate any number of things. As there are many gods I must reflect upon ethical relativism. Is there a true moral good or merely shades of gray with numerous faces and numerous agendas? You cannot deny the existence of numerous divine beings..all claim righteousness. Which deontological law is correct? Say you have a God which dictates you must follow your heart. You save your love. Say the God dictates you to be selfless. You save the good Dr. McCuresAlot. Say you have no god at all. You are King. You are the divine law as expressed through the omnipresent divine good. As such you have the weight of leadership, the weight of conscience. Save your love? Or save three people - and potentially more in the unforseeable future. Don't you see, now? Love? Law? The Greater Good? They are all misaligned. **The black cloaked wizard leans back in his seat, and taps his fingers rythmically upon ancient tomes of sophist arrogance ** Well my good friend if you don't mind if I put my spoon inside this soup again. When my brothers in arms spoke about love he refered (or i Interpreted) that a Paladin works for love to the living beings. I believe in it too. So if I have to choose between the woman I love and Dr. MacCures a lot well... the true is that I might die trying to save both... Because a paladin can't do half-goods we put our 100% into our quests. And remember sometimes the individual can't be saved if you try to save the many (sad but true) And Van... the answer to your question might varie betwween paladins... and I can't speak in the name of lord Boydson or anyother Paladin here. Because we serve diferent orders. I think that everyone have a chance to be good and I try not to jump to my sword (In fact the sword and the violence is not my first option at all) so altough I might not aprove "Binding magic" Good is above law (in my code again) so you'll have your chance to turn good. good has enough problem with evil to have problems with good -Sir Igneo Argentlam Paladin of the silver flame
Viseryn 06-07-07, 01:01 PM	Ah, yes. The appeal to love. To ethical egoism. A utilitarian ethos - how quaint that you condescend to the remainder of the teleological tree. You reject deontological moral ethos and utilitarian based ethics - the sort that Leaders and the selfless are to use. This, however, has a weakness. A terrible one, good sir paladin. In fact, your entire post is 'argumentum ad consequentiam' - an appeal to the consequences, to love. Its a logical fallacy. You love a woman. You know of an innocent man. Both are in jeopardy. Save which one? The one man knows the cure to a vile disease that accosts two people - and will lead to their death. Your appeal to love would dictate you save just that, the woman you love. Deontological ethos may dictate any number of things. As there are many gods I must reflect upon ethical relativism. Is there a true moral good or merely shades of gray with numerous faces and numerous agendas? You cannot deny the existence of numerous divine beings..all claim righteousness. Which deontological law is correct? Say you have a God which dictates you must follow your heart. You save your love. Say the God dictates you to be selfless. You save the good Dr. McCuresAlot. Say you have no god at all. You are King. You are the divine law as expressed through the omnipresent divine good. As such you have the weight of leadership, the weight of conscience. Save your love? Or save three people - and potentially more in the unforseeable future. Don't you see, now? Love? Law? The Greater Good? They are all misaligned. **The black cloaked wizard leans back in his seat, and taps his fingers rythmically upon ancient tomes of sophist arrogance ** What would you do, under your philosophy? You act like law and good shackle us in all of these situations, however, even disregarding law and good- the choices are no easier! Your philosophy gives you no magical ability to save both. All it would protect you from is your own guilt. If you want an answer, as King it would be my responsibility to help my people. As a normal person it would be my responsibility to help my love. As a paladin? I have fealty to humanity, as I said. It's not always easy, but an oath cannot be disregarded. I would save the man who could cure others. However, after it was over, I would mourn. I would not lose humanity to protect myself from myself.
Evil DM Mk3 06-07-07, 01:30 PM	I too have a deffintion of Good, however I fear that it is one that may be of no use to anyone unless they allready know it. You see to take up teh divine mantle is more than just to swear an oath. It is to understand the differance between Right and Wrong. These are things that are written deep DEEP down in the very soul. Anywho who understands, truly understands, the differance between Right and Wrong has two choices. They can do Right or they can do Wrong and go insane. The mind and soul cannot hold the strain of doing Wrong and knowing it. You either go into deial or decome deranged. Good is Right. Evil is Wrong. Everything else that can be said on the matter is chaff.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 01:33 PM	What would you do, under your philosophy? You act like law and good shackle us in all of these situations, however, even disregarding law and good- the choices are no easier! Your philosophy gives you no magical ability to save both. All it would protect you from is your own guilt. If you want an answer, as King it would be my responsibility to help my people. As a normal person it would be my responsibility to help my love. As a paladin? I have fealty to humanity, as I said. It's not always easy, but an oath cannot be disregarded. I would save the man who could cure others. However, after it was over, I would mourn. I would not lose humanity to protect myself from myself. **A dark laughter resonates from the dusty parlor ** Well said. Well said holy warrior. Believe it or not, you underline my point. Paladins, the canonical Paladins at any rate, are fools. They overextend themselves. The same Paladin-subtypes you despise are, in fact, more honest with the reality which faces them. They know Truth. Choose your axiom, be it the will of your -so called- gods, your heart, or the greater good. Choose one, for the other two shall surely meet in a glorious contradiction of spear and shield. In an attempt to satisfy all fronts you blunt yourselves. And those you would condemn - the evil, or the 'chaotic' - shall remain sharp and effective. Whilst you flail about in indecision, your enemies win the day. The path is before you and it forks THREE FOLD. CHOOSE.
Evil DM Mk3 06-07-07, 01:36 PM	Sir, I chose what is Right. Rightnss calls to my heart and advances the forces of Good. I will gladly follow any god who places Right before Wrong and will never consider giving praise to others.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 01:59 PM	Sir, I chose what is Right. Rightnss calls to my heart and advances the forces of Good. I will gladly follow any god who places Right before Wrong and will never consider giving praise to others. Many a Blackguard I have met who said the same. For it was the darkness in his heart which sounded most true. They come before the dark lords of most ravenous id, and broke the shackles of the foolish teachings of the past. If the 'right' of your heart is all that matters, do not hesitate. You are master of your will and of your power. Strike down the impure rogue. Give no quarter to those who stir your sense of injustice. And should you FALL, should your myopic God disagree... TO HELL WITH HIM.
Evil DM Mk3 06-07-07, 02:03 PM	Read where I define what Right is. No Blackguard has ever fallen without deial or delusion.
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 02:09 PM	**A dark laughter resonates from the dusty parlor ** Well said. Well said holy warrior. Believe it or not, you underline my point. Paladins, the canonical Paladins at any rate, are fools. They overextend themselves. The same Paladin-subtypes you despise are, in fact, more honest with the reality which faces them. They know Truth. Choose your axiom, be it the will of your -so called- gods, your heart, or the greater good. Choose one, for the other two shall surely meet in a glorious contradiction of spear and shield. In an attempt to satisfy all fronts you blunt yourselves. And those you would condemn - the evil, or the 'chaotic' - shall remain sharp and effective. Whilst you flail about in indecision, your enemies win the day. The path is before you and it forks THREE FOLD. CHOOSE. *Silently observing angelic knight steps forth with eyes of amber, bedecked in an armour of scales akin to feathers of steel, depicted in a manner much like the wings of an angel.* Better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper. I see no weakness in striving to do the utmost of good. While a perfect world is out of reach, we may bring a better world for our efforts. Your claims of 'Truth' are but the lies you most favour. Understand that compromise does not mean cowardice. Righteousness exists in many forms, and a paladin is free to serve them all. As much as you claim that these three 'axioms' you speak of conflict with each other, just as often to they support each other and share their strength, and in sharing, all three are made stronger. Oftentimes a blunt instrument is the most effective one, as maces and warhammers are known to demonstrate. What would you suggest? To yield our ground, surrender a further foothold to evil? With that would come a price of innocent lives. Or do we hold evil back, and the only life sacrificed is the one that is our own to give? I choose the latter. *Steps back, with a halo of radiant gold fading and leaving him shadowed once more.*
Viseryn 06-07-07, 02:12 PM	**A dark laughter resonates from the dusty parlor ** Well said. Well said holy warrior. Believe it or not, you underline my point. Paladins, the canonical Paladins at any rate, are fools. They overextend themselves. The same Paladin-subtypes you despise are, in fact, more honest with the reality which faces them. They know Truth. Choose your axiom, be it the will of your -so called- gods, your heart, or the greater good. Choose one, for the other two shall surely meet in a glorious contradiction of spear and shield. In an attempt to satisfy all fronts you blunt yourselves. And those you would condemn - the evil, or the 'chaotic' - shall remain sharp and effective. Whilst you flail about in indecision, your enemies win the day. The path is before you and it forks THREE FOLD. CHOOSE. You're telling me there are three choices. I have to choose one of them. Is that correct? In life, and the path of the Paladin, there are never only three choices. You are the one who is over-simplifying. Paladins will follow all these and more depending on the situation. If you want me to pick from your narrow selection still, then the greater good encompasses all three. What good would saving your love do if she caught an uncurable disease a few months later? Members of society benefit from a better society, and a Paladin must help the greatest number of people. And then, we have someone like you, who's excuse for hurting others and ignoring their plights is that "good" is too inconvenient. (OOC: Sorry for the insult. But we are in character here.)
Viseryn 06-07-07, 02:21 PM	Many a Blackguard I have met who said the same. For it was the darkness in his heart which sounded most true. They come before the dark lords of most ravenous id, and broke the shackles of the foolish teachings of the past. If the 'right' of your heart is all that matters, do not hesitate. You are master of your will and of your power. Strike down the impure rogue. Give no quarter to those who stir your sense of injustice. And should you FALL, should your myopic God disagree... TO HELL WITH HIM. "If you say that you do what is right, prove it. I want to see you murder people and disregard the teachings of your gods." Is that about right?
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 02:31 PM	Many a Blackguard I have met who said the same. For it was the darkness in his heart which sounded most true. They come before the dark lords of most ravenous id, and broke the shackles of the foolish teachings of the past. If the 'right' of your heart is all that matters, do not hesitate. You are master of your will and of your power. Strike down the impure rogue. Give no quarter to those who stir your sense of injustice. And should you FALL, should your myopic God disagree... TO HELL WITH HIM. *Eyes blaze with amber light, and the aura returns as the paladin steps forth.* You speak of the path of hate, of villainy, of selfishness. We are bound by no shackles. Indeed, each blackguard has chosen shackles of desire, of basity, of weakness. The dark path is defined by vanity. Cruelty and selfishness and treachery all weakness, as they are a dependancy upon wrongfully taking from others. For one who is selfish and cruel, this is a hard truth to face, so instead they revel in their weakness and call it strength. We reject hubris. We know our path is right for we never stop questioning it. As you say, we are master of our will and our power. We master our will to always choose right, and we master our power to best serve good. *Steps back once more, bathed in a far paler light* Aorle Karr, the Shining One, Hand of Valour, Sword of Heaven.
Devil Gnasher 06-07-07, 02:48 PM	Please pardon the misunderstanding; I had only written from the perspective of a Paladin, for I was tired from a long night of caring for my son. This Shrek fellow does sound like a fine ally for you, good sir, and I am pleased that your travels have shown that even ogres, skeletons, and devils need not be evil in every case, though I myself have yet to meet such exceptions to the rule. This is also true of Shrek's enemies. Lawful Evil fairy godmothers, Prince Charming as a brutal, petty, vain and power crazed pretty boy and under boss to his fey mother or a short, bigoted, magic hating monarch whose kingdom looks like a theme park. Not many men or women had to deal with a Fairy Godmother who happens to be a female, spellcasting of Don Vito Corleone. But Shrek did so for the sake of his wife, friends and in-laws.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 03:02 PM	Well, out of the 'evil' persona for a moment. The posts I have briefly outlined cover the philosophical exercise I often put many of my Paladin players through. The agile paladin finds he may rely upon a combination of the three - virtue, law, or reasoned-choice, but seldom do all three agree. It is the inner conflict of these three axioms which are the source of Paladins falling from grace, tragically ending their lives attempting to master all three, or branching off into a Paladin subtype which chooses one path and one path only. The 'Blackguard' is often characterized as the Paladin who fell prey to their own 'id' - rather- their own selfish animalistic instincts, and wraps it with a kind of horrid super-ego. Post-justifications, ends justify the means, etc.. In truth, the war of his soul continues within, however, it is one he has invariably lost. I think a wide variety of Paladin idea concepts has been displayed in this thread, and it reminds me why the Paladin continues to be one of my most favorite core classes - to play and to GM for. :evillaugh
Viseryn 06-07-07, 03:14 PM	If we're taking a break here, I'm wondering what kind of books you've read on philosophy. You're good at this. :heehee
Evil DM Mk3 06-07-07, 03:14 PM	Here Here
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 03:30 PM	Nothing fancy. And although I may throw latin around, I do so without full proficiency - I imagine a philosophy major could walk in here and make a fool of me :schemes: The three-category thing I was speaking is called 'normative ethics'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics Its a 'how things should be' type of ethics. Rather than a 'what people actually use for ethics' kinda thing :)
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 03:38 PM	Very evocative character by the way. It really gave the impression of being locked in a room with an evil wizard. I am impressed. And I think this is a lovely contrast, between how paladins CAN fall and why the majority do not.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 03:42 PM	Well, its a trick question really. If you have enough power, all three axioms should be able to be satisfied. It is the belief in the inherit good nature of the universe - the belief that if one were to follow TRUE virtue, TRUE divine law, that utility would rise in the long run. Paladins seek to make the world better, and so they take on the monumental task of balancing the ideal and the real. In my opinion, the correct answer is to try to satisfy all three, however the reality - even in a game- is that they lack the power to make their dream come true.
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 03:45 PM	Well, its a trick question really. If you have enough power, all three axioms should be able to be satisfied. It is the belief in the inherit good nature of the universe - the belief that if one were to follow TRUE virtue, TRUE divine law, that utility would rise in the long run. Paladins seek to make the world better, and so they take on the monumental task of balancing the ideal and the real. In my opinion, the correct answer is to try to satisfy all three, however the reality - even in a game- is that they lack the power to make their dream come true. Agreed. Ready to get back to character? :)
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-07-07, 03:50 PM	Agreed. Ready to get back to character? :) I don't know if thats appropriate now since the topic seems to have been concisely wrapped up. What would you purpose? Roll Initiative? :mage:
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 03:52 PM	I don't know if thats appropriate now since the topic seems to have been concisely wrapped up. What would you purpose? Roll Initiative? :mage: Have at thee!:fight!: No more questions or arguments for the paladins to answer? Or perhaps I should seek to sway you to find the virtue that has been denied? New thread? PM's?
Viseryn 06-07-07, 03:56 PM	I could take over as the evil wizard, but it would feel very strange. :D
Evil DM Mk3 06-07-07, 03:56 PM	There will allways be questions and problems for Paladins. When you need them, they will be there.
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 04:00 PM	Then tell me, fellow knights, of your orders and causes. I would know more of my comrades in the service of right.
Evil DM Mk3 06-07-07, 05:33 PM	I am a Greyguard but that is not an order but a calling within a calling. My correct name and titles are: Sir Tristian Devonport-Basington, Blade of the Order of the Everburing banner, ambasidor to the Inquisition of Vertomp, Sergent of the Order of the Iron Beard (honorary), Third crown of the Order of the Silver Oak (honorary), Bearer of Lisander. My Order was founded out of the ashes (almost literaly) of three much older Orders, I make it clear at this point that fewer than one in seven of us are Paladins, although we are all straight and true in our covictions. Those orders where involved in an ancient and terrible war against the cults of an entity known as "The Ancient" who seemed to have the favour of the Lords of Hell and the Masters of the Abyss. Even to this day almost nothing is known. Those orders where destroyed in the final battle when the mountain that they stood upon was purged with hellfire. Slain, all save eighteen. The banner of one of the Orders, the midnight star, a huge thing several dozen feet high, protcted them as it fell over them and, from that day to this, has remained aflame, a gift of hope and light from Heronoius himself! Those eighteen charged the foe and where instramental in breaking the enemies lines. As you can tell however I have gained much respect in two other Orders and amoung the clergy of St Cuthbert in Vertomp. Lisander is a holy avenger forged by an unknown craftsman but containg the mind of Sir Lisander the Magnificent, a rather flamboyant and devoanre Paladin of ancent times. He insists that I use that title. We get on better than you may think. My order considers the Fiend its greatest foe and Cult-Breaking has been my primary quest these past five years.
Comus 06-07-07, 06:07 PM	Then tell me, fellow knights, of your orders and causes. I would know more of my comrades in the service of right. I am of the Wrathful Knights of Order, a small chapter of Paladins founded by a great elven hero who lost his men, his family, and ultimately everything he loved to a horde of orcs. He was forced to combat the threat by himself, as the other elven lords advocated an isolationist stance, even going to far as to cede his lands to them. He tried hiring adventurers, and they did many great acts, but found that he simply didn't have the funding to retain them for long. He waged a war against the orcs alone, eventually infiltrating a rough keep they had built from the rubble of his own home city in order to kill their leader and the rest of their ranking officers. He used fear to crush their morale, made it seem like there were dozens of enemies. Their terror and confusion made it possible for him to do what countless others would not, and he didn't have the time or the wish to show mercy. He cut down all of the orcs that didn't - or wouldn't - flee, and had his lands back by his own hands. The Wrathful Knights of Order were founded to do the things that others won't, to go into impossible situations and claim victory from the jaws of defeat. We do not leave the field when it is hopeless, we are there because there is no hope. We have little funding, and want little, either. Our base of operations is the Orcish keep, reinforced and expanded. Our armory is taken from our enemies, the greatest of our order - myself included - using weapons that saw combat in that keep, held by Orcish hands. I use an Orcish Double-Axe and wear the armor of a blackguard crushed under the righteous heel of one of my battle-brothers. They have served evil, and now help to cut it down. Each of us has a different reason for joining the order. Some of us saw the heroism of other members, and sought out training. Some of us met on opposite sides of battle. Some of us simply ended up there, finding it as the end of an aimless, wandering life and the beginning of a new one. The code of my order is as follows: "The enemy of Good is not always Evil. The misled are often as dangerous as the malicious, but do not confuse the two. Suffer not the Evil to live. They have no mercy, and you should likewise show them none, for they have not the hearts to understand it. Treat the Good but misled with compassion, but remember that the Greater Good comes before the life of any one person, even a Good person. Fear and terror are the weapons we use to destroy evil. Prison and Execution were always intended to be fearful, a deterrent rather than a punishment. Deter Evil in any way needed, for one act of Evil not committed is worth nearly any price. Do not rely on local authority to punish Evil. If they are not doing enough Good, then there is no reason to be confined by their actions. Use your own judgment, but do not break laws simply because you do not like them - do so only when it is for the Greater Good. The tools of Evil and the tools of Good are different only in what hand wields them. Use whatever means you must to defeat Evil where you find it. But do not use indiscriminate weapons like poison - we must be careful to do harm only to those we intend. Finally, show no weakness. Morally, you must always be pure. Spiritually, you must always be sure. And physically, you must always be sound. Your enemies must believe you are invincible, as untouchable as Good itself." ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 07:25 PM	So I wonder Count. What would you do if you ever met such a mortal? Wanted dead by the gods themselves for reasons not even explained to us… Even just in passing? I certainly hope this is a difficult answer, but I’ve been looking forward to such an answer since I started down this path. *Hesitantly places a hand over top of an obviously hidden weapon within his coat. Unsure of which response his is about to receive.* Hail and well met, friend Van. Please, set aside your weapon. There is no need for violence here. As you suspected, I have never heard of your kind. I find these tales of your being hunted extremely disturbing; especially as you speak of alliances between clerics of Good and Evil. In my knowledge, there has only been one occasion wherein the gods of light and darkness have fought alongside one another. ((Hydryh: Ian's referencing an event the homebrew campaign he hails from; don't mind him.)) By the sound of your order, though, you do not serve that ancient evil. As such, I would have to meet an individual Binder. I am guided by my own conscience and what I see when I look into a man's soul. If you are evil, or are bound to an evil power, you and I will surely be at odds, regardless of the source. If not, then I have not quarrel with you, no matter how others may view your kind. Travel in peace and good health, friend Van. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 07:38 PM	You love a woman. You know of an innocent man. Both are in jeopardy. Save which one? The one man knows the cure to a vile disease that accosts two people - and will lead to their death. Your appeal to love would dictate you save just that, the woman you love. Deontological ethos may dictate any number of things. As there are many gods I must reflect upon ethical relativism. Is there a true moral good or merely shades of gray with numerous faces and numerous agendas? You cannot deny the existence of numerous divine beings..all claim righteousness. Which deontological law is correct? You misunderstand, good sir. The Love I speak of transcends personal connections. I would save the healer, for his cure can not only save the two who ail, but presumably hundreds in the future. If my lovely Jessica were at risk and I saved the healer, she would understand, for she loves me as I am. Even if understanding fled her, though, I would be obligated to do the right thing. There is a true Good, but one that I alone am ill-equipped to clarify beyond what I have already said.. No god that I have ever herd of has a monopoly on Good, despite the claims of their clerics. In my experience, like good people, the gods of Good are still working on improving themselves. Say you have a God which dictates you must follow your heart. You save your love. Say the God dictates you to be selfless. You save the good Dr. McCuresAlot. Again, sir, gods do not dictate my actions. Say you have no god at all. You are King. You are the divine law as expressed through the omnipresent divine good. As such you have the weight of leadership, the weight of conscience. Save your love? Or save three people - and potentially more in the unforseeable future. The three. Such is the burden of responsibility. Don't you see, now? Love? Law? The Greater Good? They are all misaligned. Not at all, good sir. But that is not to say that being Good is easy. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 07:43 PM	The path is before you and it forks THREE FOLD. CHOOSE. I am blessed in that my heart cries out to do the greatest Good, even when it pains me. By that one could say that I walk two roads that happen to be one and the same. The gods may walk their own path, and if it converges with mine, all the better.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 07:48 PM	Well, out of the 'evil' persona for a moment. The posts I have briefly outlined cover the philosophical exercise I often put many of my Paladin players through. The agile paladin finds he may rely upon a combination of the three - virtue, law, or reasoned-choice, but seldom do all three agree. It is the inner conflict of these three axioms which are the source of Paladins falling from grace, tragically ending their lives attempting to master all three, or branching off into a Paladin subtype which chooses one path and one path only. The 'Blackguard' is often characterized as the Paladin who fell prey to their own 'id' - rather- their own selfish animalistic instincts, and wraps it with a kind of horrid super-ego. Post-justifications, ends justify the means, etc.. In truth, the war of his soul continues within, however, it is one he has invariably lost. I think a wide variety of Paladin idea concepts has been displayed in this thread, and it reminds me why the Paladin continues to be one of my most favorite core classes - to play and to GM for. :evillaugh ((And you challenge your players well! I should take notes... :devil: ))
Hydryh 06-07-07, 07:51 PM	Very evocative character by the way. It really gave the impression of being locked in a room with an evil wizard. I am impressed. And I think this is a lovely contrast, between how paladins CAN fall and why the majority do not. ((I second these sentiments, as well. [I really ought to read further before I post, but you all have me in rapid-response mode. Thanks for the challenges!]))
High Octane 06-07-07, 07:58 PM	Dominic, arcane trickster here with my question: Will you STOP trying to put me in jail? The last 3 didnt hold me what the HELL makes you think the next 5 will? It's not like I killed anyone or robbed the poor. That "noble" has been bleeding his residents dry anyway, he deserved to lose that chalice.
Maekrix_Waere 06-07-07, 08:05 PM	Dominic, arcane trickster here with my question: Will you STOP trying to put me in jail? The last 3 didnt hold me what the HELL makes you think the next 5 will? It's not like I killed anyone or robbed the poor. That "noble" has been bleeding his residents dry anyway, he deserved to lose that chalice. Of course, if you're caught, then that says more about your inability to prevent yourself from getting caught then the prison's inability to hold you.
High Octane 06-07-07, 08:19 PM	Of course, if you're caught, then that says more about your inability to prevent yourself from getting caught then the prison's inability to hold you. Well sometimes escaping the jail is an easier time than avaiding some guy with some sort of divine tracking ability and the favor of a bunch of self righteous deities. I try to run, his force turns lethal. i'm just glad I'm not evil.
Hydryh 06-07-07, 08:29 PM	Then tell me, fellow knights, of your orders and causes. I would know more of my comrades in the service of right. I am in fact not a member of a knightly order. Rather, to be a paladin is something of a family business. Four hundred and sixty-six years ago, when the Zakresh Empire made a mad bid for territory, the armies of Rotellus came to the aid of their elven allies. At the Battle of Zakresh Pass, one footman made a name for himself by leading four dozen men to hold off two hundred orcs. These orcs would otherwise have overrun the healer's tents and supply areas, crippling the Rotellan forces in that region. The man's name was Boyd, and he bore a Lion's Shield that he had recovered from the field mere minutes before. It is said in Boyd's journal that the knowledge of what the orcs would do if unhindered washed away the fear he felt. We have long speculated that that is the exact moment that he heard the paladin's call. He became a Count when he returned home, one of many new nobility raised to fill in the gaps left by the war. Since his time, most Boydsons have heard the call of the paladin. A few have pursued other paths, but the Boydson name has long been synonymous with honor and generosity. Count Ian Boydson Farrowkeep Rotellus 893 A.E.
Maekrix_Waere 06-07-07, 08:53 PM	Well sometimes escaping the jail is an easier time than avaiding some guy with some sort of divine tracking ability and the favor of a bunch of self righteous deities. I try to run, his force turns lethal. i'm just glad I'm not evil. Divine tracking? Are you referring to the Shadowbane? I beg your pardon if you are running from the Shadowbane, but a regular Paladin is not that difficult to avoid. All you need to do is remember how they think. A Ring of Invisibility would be very useful in that situation. Also, going to a different kingdom would help too. Also remember that sleeping within a shelf in a cliff makes it very easy to avoid enemies, as you have two ways to run, and your arcane abilities will be helpful if pushing them off, if worse comes to worse. All-in-all, just lay low until the pressure is off. Even paladins will end up having more important things to do than track down a thief.
Stormbrand 06-07-07, 08:54 PM	I am blessed in that my heart cries out to do the greatest Good, even when it pains me. By that one could say that I walk two roads that happen to be one and the same. The gods may walk their own path, and if it converges with mine, all the better. Good answer.
DreamerInsane 06-07-07, 09:21 PM	Sir Ian, When questioned about the invading horde of Orcs, you were firmly against poison. I would like to remind you that not all poisons kill - some may simply paralyze or otherwise incapacitate the victim. Some lethal poisons, such as kurare, are also rather harmless if taken in small doses. A bigger one kills, certainly, but a small one merely induces slumber. Could you not possibly poison their food, being reasonably certain most of the orcs get only so much poison as to be knocked out, or utilize a nonlethal variety, and do so with clean conscience?
Viseryn 06-07-07, 09:43 PM	Sir Ian, When questioned about the invading horde of Orcs, you were firmly against poison. I would like to remind you that not all poisons kill - some may simply paralyze or otherwise incapacitate the victim. Some lethal poisons, such as kurare, are also rather harmless if taken in small doses. A bigger one kills, certainly, but a small one merely induces slumber. Could you not possibly poison their food, being reasonably certain most of the orcs get only so much poison as to be knocked out, or utilize a nonlethal variety, and do so with clean conscience? I think that the greatest problem with poisons is that the people who are killed are usually not even thinking about dying, as opposed to killing someone on the field of battle where they expect it. In this case, I could poison to incapacitate. Although, we'll have to wait for Sir Ian's answer in any case...
darkneolink 06-07-07, 10:35 PM	Then tell me, fellow knights, of your orders and causes. I would know more of my comrades in the service of right. My name is Igneo Argentlam. I'm a paladin of the silver flame. My tale begins with the lasts years of the last war. I was rescued from a certain dead by a brave Paladin who then took me as his apprentice. After years training and honning my skills I was sent in my first quest accompaning a group of adventurers to the city of Sharn. We were a Bard, a cleric, a wizard, a powerfull warrior and me a young paladin. I was the kind of paladin who stood to the letter of the code instead of the spirit of it. I don't have to include that I fell... and fell hard. I blamed it on everyone. My companions, the order... even the silver flame and it's guardian. I strode away from the path of light and alienated all my companions... excepting for the bard who accompained me no matter what... she is a true friend. My hate and hubris took me to the precence of a Fiend from the underworld... a Rakhasa... he talked me about getting my revenge on those who have falied me... I almost agreed and turned a black guard... but Darshee my good friend intervened... she was almost killed by the Rakhasa... Lucky for both of us... another paladin of the silver flame came... the sam knight that saved me when I was a young children... we fought the Rakhasa together and managed to destroy it... then in a show of piety Sir Argentlam (of whom I take the last name) saved the life of Darshee. We bided farewell and as we took different paths. My path and Darshee's took us to our old allies... there I attoned with my fellow cleric of the flame. Now I try to live my code to its true spirit and do my best to help the other. I also hope I can help young paladins not to fall -Sir Igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame
Hydryh 06-08-07, 03:06 AM	I think that the greatest problem with poisons is that the people who are killed are usually not even thinking about dying, as opposed to killing someone on the field of battle where they expect it. In this case, I could poison to incapacitate. Although, we'll have to wait for Sir Ian's answer in any case... Incapacitating poison merely means that when you do face the foe, they are not at their best. This is still unworthy of a paladin, in my view.
Evil DM Mk3 06-08-07, 08:35 AM	As a Paladin I have met those who humble me, and those who casue me to dobut that Good can redeame Evil. Who are the most evil and the msot righteous you ahve ever met? The most awe inspiring soul I have ever encountered is also one that I showed the Path to. I rescued him from a durregar slave caravan. Unlike most of the other slaves he was not resigned or defeated. He was 22 but had lived every hour of his life was a slave, and never one had he stopped fighting. We talked and eventualy, partially becasue he could not understand how Order could serve Good, I took him to the Temple of the Everburning Banner. From that day on he became focued and dedicated to the casue. He remained everything his life had made him and returned to the Under Realms to free others. Every now and again I hear of his deeds and I feel honoured to have known him. He never took a name, he is known as Kr'zk7781. I once stared into the gaze of Azmodius himself, though a collapsing portal. He said things to me that I have taken great care to put from my mind. I care not what my future holds regardless of what he claims.
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 11:43 AM	(OOC: I will answer with my own intro soon, promise) Incapacitating poison merely means that when you do face the foe, they are not at their best. This is still unworthy of a paladin, in my view. My objection is that poison is the tool of betrayers, who kill in secret and hope not to be traced. Simple honesty demands that a paladin admit to those he would slay. While there are other ways to use poison, such a tool favours the treacherous and dishonourable. I find it best not to use it entirely.
Evil DM Mk3 06-08-07, 12:37 PM	I have never used poison. The main reason I dislike it is that it is suprisingly inacurate. If you strike incorrectly or are disarmed teh poison on a blade can harm incents a great deal. Even worse is poison dlevered by arrow or dart that can strike a passer by or in food that may be eaten by others.
BloodDragon 06-08-07, 01:03 PM	I'd would assume every paladin should be using Drow Posion. Dispite the name the Init effect is "Unconsciousness", Secondary effect? Unconsciousness for 2d6 hours. (Very low DC... but then again, the posion is VERY cheap too). No it's not a test of honor or strength or what have you, but it also allows unneeded blood shed. I honestly think good churchs should be handing the stuff our to their Paladins in large quantities.
maharai23 06-08-07, 01:26 PM	Do you ever find the strictures of the Paladin a bit chafing? For example, in situations where the only way to destroy a great and malevolent evil is to stoop to evil or dishonorable acts yourself? Do you destroy it, and accept your atonement with stoic resolve? Or do you let that evil continue, confident that you yourself haven't committed evil, at least? What are your opinions on Positoxins, magical poison specifically enchanted to work on evil outsiders and undead, and only evil outsiders and undead? If using poisons is unethical, how about positoxins? (For the current discussion, let's assume that the PHb entry of paladin is correct, and that ALL poison use is a violation of the Paladin's code of conduct... Makes things easier than line item approving every poison that cannot kill, which includes every poison that doesn't deal CON damage. Poison violates a paladin's code on the same reasoning that starting bar brawls and throwing dirt in the eye does... Dirty fighting isn't honorable, and paladins are the epitome of honor.)
Evil DM Mk3 06-08-07, 01:51 PM	The situations you state are the reason why I and others live me exist. Positoxins are not poisons, they are a special weapon for use agains the undead, mockeries of life and an affront to good. Their use is fine, I often drink Bloodwine before hunting vampires or dealing with a Death god cult (they tend to attract vamps).
maharai23 06-08-07, 03:54 PM	The situations you state are the reason why I and others live me exist. Positoxins are not poisons, they are a special weapon for use agains the undead, mockeries of life and an affront to good. Their use is fine, I often drink Bloodwine before hunting vampires or dealing with a Death god cult (they tend to attract vamps). Yes, a weapon that functions in the exact same manner as poison, which is a special weapon for use against nearly any non-construct, non-undead. A paladin suffers a loss of abilities, and requires atonement, if he coats his blade with Purple Wyrm venom, and uses it on the evil theurge necromancer laying siege to the empire of all that is noble and good. The target of the act is irrelevant with poisons. It's the user that matters in the case of poisons. And positoxins... Well, if it looks like a poison, and works like a poison... The paladin's code of honor isn't violated because of the nature of fighting evil or good... It isn't violated because poison use it evil (it's not). It's violated because part of that chivalric code includes lip service to fair play. Clashing against the strongest forces of evil, and winning through strength of will, strength of arms, and strength of resolve. Not by sucker punching the balor with poison-coated armor spikes.
Evil DM Mk3 06-08-07, 04:01 PM	Well, if it looks like a poison, and works like a poison... Ravadges. And YES using poison is an evil act becasue poison causes unessissary suffering. Undead are a special case. Whether you like it or not in Standard DnD making/controling undead is EVIL and most undead are inherantly EVIL. Ghosts are about the only sentient exeption.
maharai23 06-08-07, 04:05 PM	And so that it's known, the greater good has brought the creation of more blackguards than anything else. The moment you condone any evil in your heart, no matter how small, no matter what the reason is, you begin to stray from the moral perfection that must be the paladin. A paladin must serve the GREATEST good, not the greater. The greatest good is pure, and perfect. Unattainable, surely, but the paladin must be a living example of a creature of pure good. The moment you choose the lesser of two evils, you begin a path to damnation. A paladin, when faced with two evils, must by his own code, choose NEITHER, rather than the lesser. And yet, he still must fight evil, else he falls. Thus, when offered two such choices, the Paladin must reject the situation offered him and create his own win condition. Woe to the paladin with the DM who likes no-win situations, for the atonement spell will be oft cast. Moral Perfection, such as the Paladin is, is an ever elusive goal. All shall eventually fail it.
maharai23 06-08-07, 04:08 PM	Ravadges. And YES using poison is an evil act becasue poison causes unessissary suffering. Undead are a special case. Whether you like it or not in Standard DnD making/controling undead is EVIL and most undead are inherantly EVIL. Ghosts are about the only sentient exeption. Are you sure about that? Whilst poisons do lessen one's abilites, several actually put the user in a state of euphoria, or a painless state, as is the case of drugs (another specialized form of poison). Suffering and poison do not always go hand in hand. For example, with drow poison, the closest to suffering you'll get is a good night's sleep. If you want unneccessary suffering, look to torture, which is certainly evil. And making/controlling undead is inherently evil. So are undead. That doesn't change the fact that using a substance that will do enough con damage to stop a living necromancer's (raising an undead army of evil) heart will cause a paladin to become a fighter without the bonus feats. Inherent good and evil are irrelevant to it. If you look in the paladin code, the script against poison use is in the section about FAIR PLAY, not the section about good and evil. Go ahead. Read it. I'll wait.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-08-07, 04:16 PM	Are you sure about that? Whilst poisons do lessen one's abilites, several actually put the user in a state of euphoria, or a painless state, as is the case of drugs (another specialized form of poison). Suffering and poison do not always go hand in hand. For example, with drow poison, the closest to suffering you'll get is a good night's sleep. If you want unneccessary suffering, look to torture, which is certainly evil. That is until some menace appears to attack those you have left helpless. Its not unlike binding the hands of a group of thieves and leaving them unarmed, smeared with blood and honey, in a forest infested with DIRE BEARS. Come now. Medieval setting, an encampment of enemies effectively drugged...If a player was this 'drug happy' I'd have a lark by placing their drugged victims in harms way. Reminds me of so many 'Weekend at X' situations. :D While the paladin is not responsible for saving evil from the consequences of their actions, if he drugs them, he immediately becomes their caretaker. That is if he believes is quarter, mercy, and all that...
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 04:50 PM	It is past time that I returned the greetings and introductions given by my comrades and allies in the cause of good. I am Aorle Kar, Chevalier-Gallant of Ydren's Spear, the Shining One, the Sword of Heaven, the Hand of Valour. Once I belonged to the family Anstrun, yet I renounced my birthright due to their evil ways. As may have been observed, I am of celestial nature. No such ancestor has been found in my heritage, and all 'anomilies' in my bloodline have been found to be regretfully wicked. Some of you may find my Order strange, in particular those who remember Ydren in a demonic aspect. Though his fall was sad, it was foreseen. By him. And thus our order was founded. He gathered the order, prepared and readied us, for the day that he would fall. So that there were those who could stop him. That was an act of self-sacrifice and responsibility that we honour, even as we lament his fall. Instead of serving any god, we are bound to the Angelic Host, and indeed live by the teachings of angels. As for our code. Act with honour and compassion in all things. Defend all innocents within your power and bring them safety as your gift. Better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper. Be strong for those who are crippled and ill. Be armed for those without swords. Be just for those in need of justice. Be ever fair in will and action. Give freely and kindly, and relish in the act. Guard well your pledged word, for it binds you as iron. Remember the wronged, see them righted. Remember the wicked, and see them vanquished. Forsake your pride when deeming worth. At my command is the warband of the Lightswords. Brave and righteous men. Here is the Oath that I and all they swear to. "I shall seek ever the Path of Right. I shall care more than I think is wise. I shall bring swift end to the wicked, the unrighteous, and those who prey on the weak. I shall speak ever truth, that my word alone bring hope. By my strength, I shall make dark lands safe. I shall be ever brave in word and in deed. I shall take pride in my honour, and not my honour in pride. Better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper. This is my Oath! And so do I swear!"
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 05:33 PM	(Speaking IC). Do you ever find the strictures of the Paladin a bit chafing? For example, in situations where the only way to destroy a great and malevolent evil is to stoop to evil or dishonorable acts yourself? Do you destroy it, and accept your atonement with stoic resolve? Or do you let that evil continue, confident that you yourself haven't committed evil, at least? What are your opinions on Positoxins, magical poison specifically enchanted to work on evil outsiders and undead, and only evil outsiders and undead? If using poisons is unethical, how about positoxins? (For the current discussion, let's assume that the PHb entry of paladin is correct, and that ALL poison use is a violation of the Paladin's code of conduct... Makes things easier than line item approving every poison that cannot kill, which includes every poison that doesn't deal CON damage. Poison violates a paladin's code on the same reasoning that starting bar brawls and throwing dirt in the eye does... Dirty fighting isn't honorable, and paladins are the epitome of honor.) Nay, good sir. My code chafes me not, it guides me when lost. Evil cannot be unmade with evil. With fire and sword and force at arms, yes, but not with acts of evil. In choosing the methods of evil, we would undermine our own cause. One quandery frequently put before me has been 'The baby and the demon,' in which the suggestion was that a powerful demon would be released unless an innocent child was slain in cold blood. Such an event is not to be believed. Slaying an innocent child in cold blood would be the perfect way to unleash such a demon. As evil thrives on the sacrifice of innocents. Positoxins bring no harm to the innocent, and so are fair tools in the destruction of evil. Their very nature removes the risk of harm done to the undeserving, and such, I will accept such a thing. What you describe as fighting with honour, I would describe as fighting for glory. Honour is in upholding trust, in keeping truce, in supporting virtue. No enemy is owed an opportunity to kill you. When you speak of fair combat, remember the armour we wear, the swords we wield and steeds we ride. Few foes can match those, yet honour does not demand I fight unarmed and unarmoured. Yes, a weapon that functions in the exact same manner as poison, which is a special weapon for use against nearly any non-construct, non-undead. A paladin suffers a loss of abilities, and requires atonement, if he coats his blade with Purple Wyrm venom, and uses it on the evil theurge necromancer laying siege to the empire of all that is noble and good. The target of the act is irrelevant with poisons. It's the user that matters in the case of poisons. And positoxins... Well, if it looks like a poison, and works like a poison... The paladin's code of honor isn't violated because of the nature of fighting evil or good... It isn't violated because poison use it evil (it's not). It's violated because part of that chivalric code includes lip service to fair play. Clashing against the strongest forces of evil, and winning through strength of will, strength of arms, and strength of resolve. Not by sucker punching the balor with poison-coated armor spikes. Understand, that these 'positoxins' you speak of do not bring harm to the innocent, nor are they tools of treachery as poison are. They are banes of the wicked and unholy. Innocent folk suffer no danger, and there are few ways to treat with undead. An assassin who poisons a man's food sits with him in the guise of friendship, using deceit and the victims own sense of hospitality as weapons against him. It makes virtue lead to death. Although a virtuous death is better than a wicked life, virtuous life is the ideal. A poison blade makes a dagger, a pin, an innocuous item, deadly. People see my sword and know that it is a weapon.To set aside my sword and spear while still secretly armed is dishonest, a lie. For in surrendering my main arms I accept their trust. To hide a small blade made deadly through poison would be to kill under the guise of one who comes in peace. Poisons favour traitors and betrayers. Such a tool is best avoided entirely. A positoxin assumes war or enemity. Luring an undead under the guise of peace and friendship would be a bizarre concept, so the tool does not favour betrayal. Bloodwine, which brings low a feeding vampire, is but a defence, no worse than the skin of a deadly frog. And so that it's known, the greater good has brought the creation of more blackguards than anything else. The moment you condone any evil in your heart, no matter how small, no matter what the reason is, you begin to stray from the moral perfection that must be the paladin. A paladin must serve the GREATEST good, not the greater. The greatest good is pure, and perfect. Unattainable, surely, but the paladin must be a living example of a creature of pure good. The moment you choose the lesser of two evils, you begin a path to damnation. A paladin, when faced with two evils, must by his own code, choose NEITHER, rather than the lesser. And yet, he still must fight evil, else he falls. Thus, when offered two such choices, the Paladin must reject the situation offered him and create his own win condition. Woe to the paladin with the DM who likes no-win situations, for the atonement spell will be oft cast. Moral Perfection, such as the Paladin is, is an ever elusive goal. All shall eventually fail it. Then you believe that all paladins are doomed for failure. I challenge such a notion. As for the greatest good, I agree, yet there will be times that the greatest good is not all we hope for. A paladin must do the best he can in the world he finds himself. That is our purpose. And pray tell, what is this 'DM' you speak of?
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-08-07, 05:46 PM	And so that it's known, the greater good has brought the creation of more blackguards than anything else. The moment you condone any evil in your heart, no matter how small, no matter what the reason is, you begin to stray from the moral perfection that must be the paladin. A paladin must serve the GREATEST good, not the greater. The greatest good is pure, and perfect. Unattainable, surely, but the paladin must be a living example of a creature of pure good. The moment you choose the lesser of two evils, you begin a path to damnation. A paladin, when faced with two evils, must by his own code, choose NEITHER, rather than the lesser. And yet, he still must fight evil, else he falls. Thus, when offered two such choices, the Paladin must reject the situation offered him and create his own win condition. Woe to the paladin with the DM who likes no-win situations, for the atonement spell will be oft cast. Moral Perfection, such as the Paladin is, is an ever elusive goal. All shall eventually fail it. So, reason does not factor in. I see. Well I suppose its a glorious prime material such that the good such as yourself can suck parasitically from the lifeblood of the reasonable and effective. Create your own win condition? Please... what ever happened to the virtue of humility? Circumstances simply do not change to favor your petty ethos. Whilst you are busy playing the part of Buridan's Ass (or perhaps more accuratley Morton's Fork), your rogue ally has already pushed forth decisive action to save the day - allowing your myopic 'good' to continue. **So sayeth the dark messenger Arkanon.**
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-08-07, 06:12 PM	**The wizard continues, in a bit of a rant** You all speak of the Black Guard as if they were a failing. No. For if they were a failed conception why would they be so formidable a force in the world... As a layman of divine writ once classified love, allow me to classify HATE Perverted Hate: Trechery, Projection, Insincerity Insufficient Hate: Pacifism Excessive Hate of the Earthly: Beserking, Cynicism, Prejudice Each a deadly sin to a Blackguard. All lead to their destruction. Each balancing a Virtue held by their dark pacts. Any guesses to what Virtues I elude? Trechery is opposed by Commaradarie Projection is opposed by Focus Insincerity is opposed by Vengence Pacifism is opposed by Aggression Berserker is opposed by Reservation Cynicism is opposed by Clarity Prejudice is opposed by Righteous Condemnation Follow these tenants, and no Blackguard shall fail.
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 07:58 PM	**The wizard continues, in a bit of a rant** You all speak of the Black Guard as if they were a failing. No. For if they were a failed conception why would they be so formidable a force in the world... As a layman of divine writ once classified love, allow me to classify HATE Perverted Hate: Trechery, Projection, Insincerity Insufficient Hate: Pacifism Excessive Hate of the Earthly: Beserking, Cynicism, Prejudice Each a deadly sin to a Blackguard. All lead to their destruction. Each balancing a Virtue held by their dark pacts. Any guesses to what Virtues I elude? Trechery is opposed by Commaradarie Projection is opposed by Focus Insincerity is opposed by Vengence Pacifism is opposed by Aggression Berserker is opposed by Reservation Cynicism is opposed by Clarity Prejudice is opposed by Righteous Condemnation Follow these tenants, and no Blackguard shall fail. How very amusing, wicked mage. Your proposed 'Virtues' so often fail to counter the failings you speak of. Why? Because you have fallen to cynicism and prejudice yourself. Each of these virtues is false. How can the condemnation of a blackguard be righteous? Celebration and pursuit of Aggression as a virtue in it's own name leads to the same problems as with hate. Berserking. Cynicism. Prejudice. Treachery. While inhibiting Commaraderie and Focus. How is Vengeance a virtue? What do you mean by it? Wickedness depends upon wrongful taking from others, and thus, is a weakness. The blackguard ever needs more. The righteous may have as much, yet thrive quite well with far less. You have my pity, dark wizard.
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 08:05 PM	So, reason does not factor in. I see. Well I suppose its a glorious prime material such that the good such as yourself can suck parasitically from the lifeblood of the reasonable and effective. Create your own win condition? Please... what ever happened to the virtue of humility? Circumstances simply do not change to favor your petty ethos. Whilst you are busy playing the part of Buridan's Ass (or perhaps more accuratley Morton's Fork), your rogue ally has already pushed forth decisive action to save the day - allowing your myopic 'good' to continue. **So sayeth the dark messenger Arkanon.** Indeed, I have spoke in opposition to the same point. Yet you fall into the same trap of believing it to be representative of paladins. Yet there is one matter which has been well-highlighted, that a paladin need not accept the premise of the situation. The suggestion you propose, Arkanon, is but a petty fantasy.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-08-07, 09:59 PM	Indeed, I have spoke in opposition to the same point. Yet you fall into the same trap of believing it to be representative of paladins. Yet there is one matter which has been well-highlighted, that a paladin need not accept the premise of the situation. The suggestion you propose, Arkanon, is but a petty fantasy. Oh how wrong you are. I have seen it with my own eyes. And to my utmost contempt, the paladin did judge against that same rogue for only choosing to perform the one good act - and not die attempting both. The vanity of the righteous knows no bounds. It can be petty, condescending, and uncanny.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-08-07, 10:13 PM	How very amusing, wicked mage. Your proposed 'Virtues' so often fail to counter the failings you speak of. Why? Because you have fallen to cynicism and prejudice yourself. Each of these virtues is false. How can the condemnation of a blackguard be righteous? Celebration and pursuit of Aggression as a virtue in it's own name leads to the same problems as with hate. Berserking. Cynicism. Prejudice. Treachery. While inhibiting Commaraderie and Focus. How is Vengeance a virtue? What do you mean by it? Wickedness depends upon wrongful taking from others, and thus, is a weakness. The blackguard ever needs more. The righteous may have as much, yet thrive quite well with far less. You have my pity, dark wizard. The Blackgaurd is resolved to hate. All he does is in its name. It is from this seething hatred from which he draws his power. To seek out allys of strength who share your passion is Commaradarie. To seek war with those you despise. Focus is attained by manifesting your wrath upon those who sparked your hate. Vengence trains the mind to seek vicious equilibrium with the wrongs committed against you. It is the natural law of Vengence - the birthright of every soul. Aggression is the endurance of the spirit. Fueled by anger, wrath, hate. It burns brightly within the Black Guard and drives him forward on the path of glorious retribution. Reservation dictates that the Black Guard not be fully consumed with bloodlust, for battle is not a goal worthy in of itself. Battle in the name of Hate, of Personal Justice is the true call of the Black Guard. Clarity requires adherance to the virtues of the Black Guard code. A Black Guard is not wholey absorbed in themselves, for they fight for their comrades, their kindred, and lives lost. Honor, justice, all ring true... but it is through the lens of HATE which they are focused. Righteous Condemnation is the ultimate embrace of the Black Guard's sense of Injustice. The laws of Gods and Men PALE beneath its light. The power of decision belongs to ALL souls, NOT merely those who would claim the title GOD. These embrace the TRUTH of the soul. There lies power here which cannot be stripped away. It is eternal, ancient, and at the core of the being of man. I would offer you freedom, holy warriors. Why persist in this madness? ** The dark voice echos throughout the audience chamber ** (( :D :evillaugh ))
darkdragonk 06-08-07, 10:38 PM	I am back, the Xeph Soulknife, Warlock, and now Palidan of Freedom(http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf page 79). And I have taken upon myself a new name with my Paladinhood, Sir Leon the Free !!! I have taken it upon myself to learn proper common to suit my new higher role as a fellow Paladin. My question now is this. What are your high opinions on the Paladins of Freedom? Do you feel my choice is a disgrace to the fellow Paladins or a intresting new path for this sacred order. Also on blackguards. In my opinion they have already failed as many are fallen paladins. The ones from other paths are equally failed as they succumed to this vile taint. Long Live Freedom!
DX2052 06-08-07, 11:11 PM	A group consisting of a LG Paladin, a CG Rogue and other people are attempting to stop a sacrifice of a young girl by a group of cultist attempting to summon a demon, the party is faced with the classic dilema of "kill the sacrifice or let people die" when the Rogue comes up with idea that because this sacrifice must be a virgin (or the cultist will be killed by the demon they try to summon) that if it is NOT a virgin they can save the sacrifice AND kill the cultist swiftly and easily, the only issue is that the sacrifice is younger then the local law allows, what does the Paladin do? 2 what do you think of the statement "Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead"
Viseryn 06-08-07, 11:22 PM	The Blackgaurd is resolved to hate. All he does is in its name. It is from this seething hatred from which he draws his power. To seek out allys of strength who share your passion is Commaradarie. To seek war with those you despise. Focus is attained by manifesting your wrath upon those who sparked your hate. Vengence trains the mind to seek vicious equilibrium with the wrongs committed against you. It is the natural law of Vengence - the birthright of every soul. Aggression is the endurance of the spirit. Fueled by anger, wrath, hate. It burns brightly within the Black Guard and drives him forward on the path of glorious retribution. Reservation dictates that the Black Guard not be fully consumed with bloodlust, for battle is not a goal worthy in of itself. Battle in the name of Hate, of Personal Justice is the true call of the Black Guard. Clarity requires adherance to the virtues of the Black Guard code. A Black Guard is not wholey absorbed in themselves, for they fight for their comrades, their kindred, and lives lost. Honor, justice, all ring true... but it is through the lens of HATE which they are focused. Righteous Condemnation is the ultimate embrace of the Black Guard's sense of Injustice. The laws of Gods and Men PALE beneath its light. The power of decision belongs to ALL souls, NOT merely those who would claim the title GOD. These embrace the TRUTH of the soul. There lies power here which cannot be stripped away. It is eternal, ancient, and at the core of the being of man. I would offer you freedom, holy warriors. Why persist in this madness? ** The dark voice echos throughout the audience chamber ** (( :D :evillaugh )) I agree on the first point- Blackguards take their strength from hate. However, against a true Paladin, he will find "his lances are but straws". Peace is the true source of power, which brings real focus. To seek out allies of strangth, for a blackgugard, is looking for sacrificial pawns and meatshields. No more, no less. Calling this camaraderie is unworthy even of you. Focus? Focus is attained when you are in a state of peace and balance, and devoted to your goal. A Blackguard who forsakes all oaths can never know devotion. One who is consumed by hate can never know focus. Here, you seek to translate vengeance into justice. Vengeance never brings equilibrium, but only more vengeance and hate. Agression can be likened to a fire, yes. But not one that gives your soul power, but one that consumes your soul and leaves you a berserk killer. Reservation? What can you claim to know of reservation, when you yourself admit to possessing hate, agression, drive for vengeance? Nothing, most would say. Clarity is the greatest problem with the Blackguards. Most Blackguards and other fallen Paladins were the most zealous before falling, the ones who claimed to have the greatest moral clarity. What they had was certainty, which means they never question their code or morals, and will carry out evil acts without ever thinking that they are evil. Your "Righteous Condemnation" is another way of saying "Might makes right". Under this system, the strong can judge whatever they wish, and the weak can only accept it. This is the very antithesis to the Paladin code, and it is repulsive to me for one. You offer me your freedom, saying that I could do more good for the world that way. I could do that, if I submit to your ill-gotten morals. However, all of these are the opposite of my code right now. I see not a device for the doing of good in your ideas. A Paladin would say: Treachery is opposed by Honor Projection is opposed by Acceptance Insincerity is opposed by Truth Pacifism is opposed by Strength Berserker is opposed by Peace Cynicism is opposed by Faith Prejudice is opposed by Tolerance
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 11:25 PM	Oh how wrong you are. I have seen it with my own eyes. And to my utmost contempt, the paladin did judge against that same rogue for only choosing to perform the one good act - and not die attempting both. The vanity of the righteous knows no bounds. It can be petty, condescending, and uncanny. And this decisive act? What was that? Destruction of a life which was not his to take? Pray tell. For all I see is vanity indeed, but not of the righteous, of the wicked.
Viseryn 06-08-07, 11:29 PM	A group consisting of a LG Paladin, a CG Rogue and other people are attempting to stop a sacrifice of a young girl by a group of cultist attempting to summon a demon, the party is faced with the classic dilema of "kill the sacrifice or let people die" when the Rogue comes up with idea that because this sacrifice must be a virgin (or the cultist will be killed by the demon they try to summon) that if it is NOT a virgin they can save the sacrifice AND kill the cultist swiftly and easily, the only issue is that the sacrifice is younger then the local law allows, what does the Paladin do? 2 what do you think of the statement "Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead" 1. I cannot claim to understand this "LG" and "CG" talk. However, it seems as if the sacrifice can easily be rescued with a well placed Suggestion spell or any of a few others. The Paladin should most likely defend the sacrifice. If there's no time to defend the sacrifice, then there's no time for the Rogue's idea. 2. Honor is important to a Paladin. Honor is what ties Paladins together, the reason that if they declare something evil, people will believe them, the reason that people have faith in Paladins to do right. If we lost our honor, than we would be little better than Blackguards. However, seeking glory is unworthy of a Paladin, and he indeed should not risk death for personal glory.
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 11:33 PM	I am back, the Xeph Soulknife, Warlock, and now Palidan of Freedom(http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf page 79). And I have taken upon myself a new name with my Paladinhood, Sir Leon the Free !!! I have taken it upon myself to learn proper common to suit my new higher role as a fellow Paladin. My question now is this. What are your high opinions on the Paladins of Freedom? Do you feel my choice is a disgrace to the fellow Paladins or a intresting new path for this sacred order. Also on blackguards. In my opinion they have already failed as many are fallen paladins. The ones from other paths are equally failed as they succumed to this vile taint. Long Live Freedom! Freedom is indeed a worthy cause, and while we celebrate your devotion to good, we are saddened that you place your faith in Chaos. Order is far more suited to protecting the innocent. For a kingdom with just laws well-enforced can work together to keep the common man safe. In chaos, there is not that organisation. And so the path you choose is limited to those you can personally help, while my work strengthens society to protect those people once I am gone. Your cause is worthy, merely, incomplete.
Stormbrand 06-08-07, 11:38 PM	A group consisting of a LG Paladin, a CG Rogue and other people are attempting to stop a sacrifice of a young girl by a group of cultist attempting to summon a demon, the party is faced with the classic dilema of "kill the sacrifice or let people die" when the Rogue comes up with idea that because this sacrifice must be a virgin (or the cultist will be killed by the demon they try to summon) that if it is NOT a virgin they can save the sacrifice AND kill the cultist swiftly and easily, the only issue is that the sacrifice is younger then the local law allows, what does the Paladin do? 2 what do you think of the statement "Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead" Rescue the sacrifice. Her death is being used to summon the demon, so the choice to kill her would not prevent the sacrifice. The ritual is dependant upon her bloodshed, why give evil a helping hand? Charge in with blade held high, and disrupt the ceremony. The priests must at least stop to defend themselves. Ride and use your sacred steed to carry the virgin to safety.
DX2052 06-08-07, 11:42 PM	Rescue the sacrifice. Her death is being used to summon the demon, so the choice to kill her would not prevent the sacrifice. The ritual is dependant upon her bloodshed, why give evil a helping hand? Charge in with blade held high, and disrupt the ceremony. The priests must at least stop to defend themselves. Ride and use your sacred steed to carry the virgin to safety. I think you misundestood, if the the sacrfice is NOT a virign the cultist die.
Viseryn 06-08-07, 11:43 PM	I think you misundestood, if the the sacrfice is NOT a virign the cultist die. I also have an answer, last post on the fifth page. Anyway, Stormbrand is saying that disrupting the ritual is sufficient. If you can't kill the cultist yourself, they could just whack you out of the way even if you went with what we might call "Plan Rogue".
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 12:07 AM	The Blackgaurd is resolved to hate. All he does is in its name. It is from this seething hatred from which he draws his power. To seek out allys of strength who share your passion is Commaradarie. To seek war with those you despise. Focus is attained by manifesting your wrath upon those who sparked your hate. Vengence trains the mind to seek vicious equilibrium with the wrongs committed against you. It is the natural law of Vengence - the birthright of every soul. Aggression is the endurance of the spirit. Fueled by anger, wrath, hate. It burns brightly within the Black Guard and drives him forward on the path of glorious retribution. Reservation dictates that the Black Guard not be fully consumed with bloodlust, for battle is not a goal worthy in of itself. Battle in the name of Hate, of Personal Justice is the true call of the Black Guard. Clarity requires adherance to the virtues of the Black Guard code. A Black Guard is not wholey absorbed in themselves, for they fight for their comrades, their kindred, and lives lost. Honor, justice, all ring true... but it is through the lens of HATE which they are focused. Righteous Condemnation is the ultimate embrace of the Black Guard's sense of Injustice. The laws of Gods and Men PALE beneath its light. The power of decision belongs to ALL souls, NOT merely those who would claim the title GOD. These embrace the TRUTH of the soul. There lies power here which cannot be stripped away. It is eternal, ancient, and at the core of the being of man. I would offer you freedom, holy warriors. Why persist in this madness? ** The dark voice echos throughout the audience chamber ** (( :D :evillaugh )) Mere illusions, dark one. We persist because the path of right is worthy of our loyalty. Watch, and learn, dear man. Commaraderie is a virtue of Good and Order, to share kinship with others. Evil bears no such kinship, as it seeks only to use others for it's own purposes. Thus treachery is the very path a blackguard is encouraged in. Hate distorts Focus, leading it astray, for spite and pride are wasted efforts which bring nothing to the world. Vengeance trains the mind to strike needlessly. Justice sets things right. Vengeance is but a flimsy excuse for targeting with destruction. Aggression is merely the need and hunger to strike, submission to a craving. As I have said before, a weakness. True men, strong men, have no need to see others brought low. Reservation keeps any from being fully consumed with bloodlust, and thus from hate. And thus, Reservation is a path leading away from the black pit. Clarity is one more thing the wicked shall never have. While they pursue cruelty and greed, they shall ever be blinded. Remember this, a blackguard has pledged his soul to destructive and malevolent forces, who are as treacherous as they are petty. There is no clarity in making such an unwise decision. As for Righteous Condemnation, it is in no way righteous, merely another label for arrogance. Yet another weakness of the wicked. Of course all souls possess the power of decision, no paladin, nor any god that we may follow, claims otherwise. Yet a decision may still be wrong. So decide wisely. Look to virtue and see the worthiness of the cause. I have embraced the truth of the soul, and see these lies for what they are. What you offer, poor man, is but slavery to greed and lust and anger and pride. Know this, I can hate. I hate injustice. I hate cruelty. I hate treachery. I hate the very notion of misusing the weak. I hate for lives to be ripped away and broken for the greed and pride of another. And I would offer you freedom, mage. What does your incessent scrambling for power add to the world? Nothing but blood choked ruins from those you have stolen from. So much power, and yet it is meaningless. So that is why you embrace such a philosophy. You fear your powerlessness. You see the wrong done in your ignorance, and you revel in it to hide from crying. Weep. Discard your shame and weep for your mistakes. Support fairness and right, through your power save those who have none. Be just and strong. Atone for your crimes. Have innocents thrive through your deeds. Then you will be free.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 12:11 AM	I think you misundestood, if the the sacrfice is NOT a virign the cultist die. Presumably, good sir, if the cultists are beheaded they also die? Or eviscerated if you prefer.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 12:12 AM	I think you misundestood, if the the sacrfice is NOT a virign the cultist die. Take the virgin to safety, cutting down as many priests as necessary. Set fire to the building on the way out.
DX2052 06-09-07, 12:26 AM	wait, when did the paladin spell list have Fireball/enlarge person/ some spell that sets things on fire.
Comus 06-09-07, 12:38 AM	The Blackgaurd is resolved to hate. All he does is in its name. It is from this seething hatred from which he draws his power. The Blackguard. *spits* I cannot stand once-good men fallen into the arms of the Ruinous Powers. They are the worst of the worst, holy warriors corrupted by Evil. To seek out allys of strength who share your passion is Commaradarie. To seek war with those you despise. And I despise Evil. Focus is attained by manifesting your wrath upon those who sparked your hate. Focus is removing everything from your vision except your opponent. Without focus, one is in danger of hurting the Innocent. With it, only the Evil need fear his blade. Those who worship Evil don't Focus, even if they say they do. They are rogues, full of the Taint, driven only by their own selfish desires. Vengence trains the mind to seek vicious equilibrium with the wrongs committed against you. It is the natural law of Vengence - the birthright of every soul. Wrongs are only committed by the Evil, by definition. A person may feel wronged by a Good man, but he has not been. Sometimes Good means doing something that isn't popular because it is the right thing to do. Good people seek Vengence. Evil people make others seek it. Aggression is the endurance of the spirit. Fueled by anger, wrath, hate. It burns brightly within the Black Guard and drives him forward on the path of glorious retribution. I believe that Blackguards are full of hate, yes. They are indeed full of anger and a lust for blood. But their hatred is fueled by their own personal vendettas, not by the needs of the Greater Good. The only thing that drives them forwards is the mistaken belief that they are more important than that common good. Reservation dictates that the Black Guard not be fully consumed with bloodlust, for battle is not a goal worthy in of itself. Battle in the name of Hate, of Personal Justice is the true call of the Black Guard. Hah! I have never seen a Blackguard who knew anything of reservation. If they had any real sense of things, they would fall to their knees and beg forgiveness. Or, if they were truly wise, would fall on their swords instead and save us the trouble of tracking them down and putting them in the ground. Clarity requires adherance to the virtues of the Black Guard code. A Black Guard is not wholey absorbed in themselves, for they fight for their comrades, their kindred, and lives lost. Honor, justice, all ring true... but it is through the lens of HATE which they are focused. They don't fight for anything but themselves. Else they would not be Blackguards at all. There have been times when Good men served an Evil cause, sometimes out of misplaced loyalty, unwise vows, or fear. Those Good men fight for their comrades. But the truly Evil, like Blackguards... they fight for nothing at all that is worth anything. I pity the man who must fight side-by-side with such a person, for their treachery will likely be the cause of that man's death. Righteous Condemnation is the ultimate embrace of the Black Guard's sense of Injustice. The laws of Gods and Men PALE beneath its light. The power of decision belongs to ALL souls, NOT merely those who would claim the title GOD. Free will is the greatest gift of the gods. But Free Will does not include the right to harm the Innocent. Anyone who uses that as an excuse is a fool. The Law does not exist to limit free will, it exists to protect the free will of others. It is a matter of the Greater Good being more important than the individual. No one wants to be murdered, so murder becomes illegal, you see? These embrace the TRUTH of the soul. There lies power here which cannot be stripped away. It is eternal, ancient, and at the core of the being of man. The Truth of my soul is manifest in my actions. In the brightest day, in the blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight, or my blade. The power there is my resolve - and it is as immovable as a mountain. I would offer you freedom, holy warriors. Why persist in this madness? Madness?! *eye twiches* THIS! IS! PALADINHOOD!!!
Devil Gnasher 06-09-07, 01:33 AM	"Sir Boydson, who would you consider the greater villain? Is it the one motivated by personal vendettas, desire for wealth and delight in causing harm? Or is it the individual who believes him or herself justified by their conscience while tormenting those who innocently act in a way that this villain considers "Evil," even if the act itself is of a Neutral or even Good in nature? Some so devoted to a cause that they give no moral weight to their own actions. In other words, which do you think is worse, gross selfishness or gross self-righteousness?" Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse. OOC: I'd say self-righteousness is worse, but I want to know what you think.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 02:20 AM	wait, when did the paladin spell list have Fireball/enlarge person/ some spell that sets things on fire. Torch. Flint and steel. Lamp oil. Candle. Mankind has been making non-magical fires for millions of years. :P
Zandolit 06-09-07, 02:42 AM	*A Duskling in a colourful dress with a wooden holy symbol around her neck steps forward cautiously, determined to ask a question that has bothered her but afraid she will offend...* I had a friend who was a paladin... well, I don't think he actually liked me very much, to tell you the truth, but I considered him a friend. Unfortunately he was slain in battle, but before he died we had an argument... well, several arguments, but most of them weren't very important... and I was wondering whether his fellow paladins would agree with him or with me. I know paladins are Good, really Good, and I... well, I try my best. But I still think I was right. The situation was this: An evil god was attempting to manifest itself and corrupt the world, and in its attempt to do so, it invaded the body and mind of a human, a fighter who was the paladin's liege lord and my friend. The evil god possessed this human against his will, though he did nothing to deserve this fate. Luckily our friend is a good man and very strong in mind and body, and he fought the evil creature within him. He is just a mortal and so was unable to defeat a god alone, even a god in a weakened state, but his efforts against it saved many lives. He helped us as much as he could at every turn in our efforts to defeat the evil creature, even though he knew doing so would also mean his own death... and a painful death, at that. We would all have died, except this man cared more about others than himself. He was willing to sacrifice his own life to save the world. Before the battle against the evil god was to begin, I mentioned casually to the paladin that I intended to have our friend raised after the fighting was done if we prevailed. I didn't think there was any doubt that our friend deserved to live, so I didn't expect I would need to debate the point. To my surprise, the paladin got very angry with me. He said that what I was suggesting was an abomination, and that because the evil god had been in our friend, he was too contaminated to live, and that his honour was gone. The paladin thought that because of what the god had done to our friend, he should stay dead. I... got pretty angry. Things got heated. The paladin said I was foolish and didn't understand honour, and I accused him of being without compassion. That experience made me wary of paladins, even though we ought to share many of the same goals. It seemed like such a harsh judgment. After what we've seen, what we've been through, aren't we all tainted? Is any one of us still whole? Is it right to condemn a man for something that was not his fault, simply because what happened to him was so horrible? Isn't it better to try to heal, even wounds that great? So... I was just wondering, was that typical of how paladins think? The matter has been decided, but I wondered if the other paladins would have sided with him or me? -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer
DX2052 06-09-07, 03:09 AM	Torch. Flint and steel. Lamp oil. Candle. Mankind has been making non-magical fires for millions of years. :P I know that (that is also why enlarge person is on the list, the objects listed get bigger with the target IIRC, don't know about there flames though) but unless the building is built out of something highly flamable your foe is going to follow you out before it gets to be a real danger with those.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 03:11 AM	*A Duskling in a colourful dress with a wooden holy symbol around her neck steps forward cautiously, determined to ask a question that has bothered her but afraid she will offend...* I had a friend who was a paladin... well, I don't think he actually liked me very much, to tell you the truth, but I considered him a friend. Unfortunately he was slain in battle, but before he died we had an argument... well, several arguments, but most of them weren't very important... and I was wondering whether his fellow paladins would agree with him or with me. I know paladins are Good, really Good, and I... well, I try my best. But I still think I was right. The situation was this: An evil god was attempting to manifest itself and corrupt the world, and in its attempt to do so, it invaded the body and mind of a human, a fighter who was the paladin's liege lord and my friend. The evil god possessed this human against his will, though he did nothing to deserve this fate. Luckily our friend is a good man and very strong in mind and body, and he fought the evil creature within him. He is just a mortal and so was unable to defeat a god alone, even a god in a weakened state, but his efforts against it saved many lives. He helped us as much as he could at every turn in our efforts to defeat the evil creature, even though he knew doing so would also mean his own death... and a painful death, at that. We would all have died, except this man cared more about others than himself. He was willing to sacrifice his own life to save the world. Before the battle against the evil god was to begin, I mentioned casually to the paladin that I intended to have our friend raised after the fighting was done if we prevailed. I didn't think there was any doubt that our friend deserved to live, so I didn't expect I would need to debate the point. To my surprise, the paladin got very angry with me. He said that what I was suggesting was an abomination, and that because the evil god had been in our friend, he was too contaminated to live, and that his honour was gone. The paladin thought that because of what the god had done to our friend, he should stay dead. I... got pretty angry. Things got heated. The paladin said I was foolish and didn't understand honour, and I accused him of being without compassion. That experience made me wary of paladins, even though we ought to share many of the same goals. It seemed like such a harsh judgment. After what we've seen, what we've been through, aren't we all tainted? Is any one of us still whole? Is it right to condemn a man for something that was not his fault, simply because what happened to him was so horrible? Isn't it better to try to heal, even wounds that great? So... I was just wondering, was that typical of how paladins think? The matter has been decided, but I wondered if the other paladins would have sided with him or me? -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer Not typical. At least the attitude. By his willingness to condemn others based on horrors forced upon them, and the self-serving and presumptuous way he speaks of honour, I must voice my doubts on the paladinhood of this fellow. Certainly his attitude would bring shame to his Church and Order. My sorrow for your loss, and I salute the compassion and loyalty that you show towards your friend. *hugs duskling impulsively* As for my answer, the brave man gave his life to prevent the harm of that evil god invading his spirit. Raising him from the dead could easily revive that god as well, which would make his noble sacrifice null and void. I would not take such a risk with the lives of innocents, nor would your most courageous and praiseworthy friend wish me to.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 03:13 AM	Madness?! *eye twiches* THIS! IS! PALADINHOOD!!! :clap: :rofl:
maharai23 06-09-07, 03:24 AM	That is until some menace appears to attack those you have left helpless. Its not unlike binding the hands of a group of thieves and leaving them unarmed, smeared with blood and honey, in a forest infested with DIRE BEARS. Come now. Medieval setting, an encampment of enemies effectively drugged...If a player was this 'drug happy' I'd have a lark by placing their drugged victims in harms way. Reminds me of so many 'Weekend at X' situations. :D While the paladin is not responsible for saving evil from the consequences of their actions, if he drugs them, he immediately becomes their caretaker. That is if he believes is quarter, mercy, and all that... In that instance it is not the poison that is evil. It's putting someone in a helpless state and leaving them. The leaving is the evil act, not the poison. And if you're in a fight to the death, assuming you're justified, then it's no more evil to kill them helpless than it is to kill them battle-ready. It's just dishonorable. And again, paladins are the epitome of honor. Thus: Use poison, lose paladin abilities. Now, according to the book of exalted deeds, any poison which deals ability damage is inherently evil, due to the fact that it causes suffering. By that logic, ravages do the same. And I quote from book of exalted deeds: "Using poison that deals ability damage is an evil act because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent." So, anything which causes such suffering is evil. And I quote: "... the powers of good have their own answer to poison and disease: Ravages and afflictions, magical traumas that turn the moral corruption of evil creatures into physical corruption that wracks their bodies." Undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent? Check. By the very reasoning for poison's evil, ravages are evil. In fact, EVERY single ravage inflicts ability damage. Further, it goes so far as to magically bypasses any resistances to poison such creatures have. Even when used against evil creatures, poison use is evil, because of undue suffering. How are ravages any different?
maharai23 06-09-07, 03:29 AM	Not typical. At least the attitude. By his willingness to condemn others based on horrors forced upon them, and the self-serving and presumptuous way he speaks of honour, I must voice my doubts on the paladinhood of this fellow. Certainly his attitude would bring shame to his Church and Order. My sorrow for your loss, and I salute the compassion and loyalty that you show towards your friend. *hugs duskling impulsively* As for my answer, the brave man gave his life to prevent the harm of that evil god invading his spirit. Raising him from the dead could easily revive that god as well, which would make his noble sacrifice null and void. I would not take such a risk with the lives of innocents, nor would your most courageous and praiseworthy friend wish me to. And why is it so important to raise him? If he was truly a good soul, and undeserving of that death, he's in a better place... Resurrections are only needed for people who still have more they are required to do in this life. I'd say holding a god at bay qualifies as a life well-lived. Further, the paladin could be right. If places where evil gods have walked can forever twist the land (indeed, the Book of Vile Darkness makes mention of this), imagine the soul that resides with it, feeling the thoughts of pure malevolent evil power... Such a person, at best, would be driven to madness. No, it's best in that situation to let the celestial realms heal those scars. Let the dead man rest in peace.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 05:07 AM	And why is it so important to raise him? If he was truly a good soul, and undeserving of that death, he's in a better place... Resurrections are only needed for people who still have more they are required to do in this life. I'd say holding a god at bay qualifies as a life well-lived. Further, the paladin could be right. If places where evil gods have walked can forever twist the land (indeed, the Book of Vile Darkness makes mention of this), imagine the soul that resides with it, feeling the thoughts of pure malevolent evil power... Such a person, at best, would be driven to madness. No, it's best in that situation to let the celestial realms heal those scars. Let the dead man rest in peace. Should you not be addressing the duskling? Perhaps the man deserves a second chance at life, since his first chance was stolen by the dark god. The Heaven's can wait.
Viseryn 06-09-07, 10:50 AM	Should you not be addressing the duskling? Perhaps the man deserves a second chance at life, since his first chance was stolen by the dark god. The Heaven's can wait. I think that whether he's ressurected or not would, in the end, be his choice. You can't ressurect an unwilling spirit. Since it's his life we're talking about, it would be best to cast the spell and let him decide.
BoringInfoGuy 06-09-07, 11:03 AM	((And you challenge your players well! I should take notes... :devil: )) Oh, great. . .:nonono:
DX2052 06-09-07, 11:26 AM	If a Paladin is asked if he is mute, and he remains silent is that a lie? How do you feel about the variant sects of Necromancery that merely animate corpses and do not involve the manipulation of souls? *expalins the USA PATRIOT Act in character* what do you think of the PATRIOT Act? *explains Molotov cocktails in character* Are Molotov cocktails in any way agenst the paladin code?
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-09-07, 12:17 PM	Mere illusions, dark one. We persist because the path of right is worthy of our loyalty. Watch, and learn, dear man. Commaraderie is a virtue of Good and Order, to share kinship with others. Evil bears no such kinship, as it seeks only to use others for it's own purposes. Thus treachery is the very path a blackguard is encouraged in. Hate distorts Focus, leading it astray, for spite and pride are wasted efforts which bring nothing to the world. Vengeance trains the mind to strike needlessly. Justice sets things right. Vengeance is but a flimsy excuse for targeting with destruction. Aggression is merely the need and hunger to strike, submission to a craving. As I have said before, a weakness. True men, strong men, have no need to see others brought low. Reservation keeps any from being fully consumed with bloodlust, and thus from hate. And thus, Reservation is a path leading away from the black pit. Clarity is one more thing the wicked shall never have. While they pursue cruelty and greed, they shall ever be blinded. Remember this, a blackguard has pledged his soul to destructive and malevolent forces, who are as treacherous as they are petty. There is no clarity in making such an unwise decision. As for Righteous Condemnation, it is in no way righteous, merely another label for arrogance. Yet another weakness of the wicked. Of course all souls possess the power of decision, no paladin, nor any god that we may follow, claims otherwise. Yet a decision may still be wrong. So decide wisely. Look to virtue and see the worthiness of the cause. I have embraced the truth of the soul, and see these lies for what they are. What you offer, poor man, is but slavery to greed and lust and anger and pride. Know this, I can hate. I hate injustice. I hate cruelty. I hate treachery. I hate the very notion of misusing the weak. I hate for lives to be ripped away and broken for the greed and pride of another. And I would offer you freedom, mage. What does your incessent scrambling for power add to the world? Nothing but blood choked ruins from those you have stolen from. So much power, and yet it is meaningless. So that is why you embrace such a philosophy. You fear your powerlessness. You see the wrong done in your ignorance, and you revel in it to hide from crying. Weep. Discard your shame and weep for your mistakes. Support fairness and right, through your power save those who have none. Be just and strong. Atone for your crimes. Have innocents thrive through your deeds. Then you will be free. I may halt you at your first assumption. You label the Blackguard evil. You assume he wishes harm upon the innocent, you assume he is wicked and corrupt. Why? Some authority told you to do so. That authority being some celestial being trying to tell you how to live your existence. Disagree with a god, and they may try to smite you from existence. Merely...disagree. Attempt to substitute your decision making power for theirs, and you fill find yourself plummetting much like a morning star. Do such beings view themselves as evil upon coming to this disagreement? No...Certainly they do not. Its a line drawn in the sand. Its a declaration of Holy War. When you are at war, you choose your allys accordingly. A Blackguard turned away from a god before, what makes you think he won't do it again once his ends have been met? Don't give me that..'the devil owns his soul' nonsense. If the devil owned his soul, he wouldn't have a soul, he couldn't have a soul if he didn't own it, so its a ridiculous statement to begin with. How can he simultaneously have a soul and not have a soul? Answer, you can't. You always own your soul - don't let anyone tell you different. Since its a war, one can easily find allys. And when one cannot, one is forced to rely upon themselves. Strength can be gained from such an exercise. What I find interesting is that by arguing the point of virtues, the precedent has been set that a Blackguard ~may~ have virtue, however, we now debate of the specifics. The principle is not out of the question, we simply are now debating the details. Well, Virtues vary from Paladin to Paladin. Why align the virtues upon 'Love'. Hate is an equally potent conduit. I recall seeing many a Paladin here claim hatred of all that is evil. Do you claim a Blackguard does not feel the same hatred? The only difference is that the Blackguard does not feel constrained upon acting on that Hate. A Blackguard is formed when he chooses to abandon the support of all three pillars of normative ethics. It is a fundamental reassessment of what he believes. He may support a different configuration of those three pillars, but is not foolish enough to try all three - as he knows the consequential paradox outlined so many times. He is no longer aligned with one of many gods. Who's to say he does not simply align with another? Does he need a god at all? So long as his power is drawn from a pure source, a deity is not required. Abandon your prejudice of those who would turn from false gods. They have chosen a path of their own making. They reject your opinion, your gods opinion. They view themselves as righteous, and you... you are simply wrong. Who arbitrates right and wrong? Your god, you say? Why not his? Why not you? Why not himself?
Zandolit 06-09-07, 02:53 PM	*The Duskling listens intently and seriously to the words spoken to her, smiling briefly when she receives a hug-- she's given many such hugs herself, the only thing she ever really does impulsively.* Thank you all for your thoughts. As I mentioned before, this situation occurred a decade ago, and has been resolved. The reason I didn't say anything about how it was resolved is that this is all we knew at the time, so it would be unfair to add information to the story that would influence your judgment. As for my answer, the brave man gave his life to prevent the harm of that evil god invading his spirit. Raising him from the dead could easily revive that god as well, which would make his noble sacrifice null and void. I was concerned about this as well, but the way the battle with the dark god was resolved, we felt it was unlikely. Our friend died before the god was defeated, and the god went on to possess several other party members for a few moments each. At that point I started to worry that we were fighting an opponent too strong to defeat, but we had to keep trying. Eventually the god took a physical form, but by that time we had weakened it significantly. It turns out the other gods were pretty mad at it for what it had been doing-- the good gods because it was hurting people, and the evil gods because it had taken over too much of their own territory and they were jealous. So in the end the other gods went after it, and ripped it into pieces, each taking a part of it into their own realms. I doubt the evil god is dead, but I also think it's in a state where it can't come back anytime soon. So we didn't think that raising our friend would make the god's return any more likely, given what happened. And why is it so important to raise him? Because we care about him. Because we missed him. Because I... I never told the paladin this, because it didn't make any difference. I would have fought the same way for any of my friends. But... I loved the fighter. I kept that a secret from everyone but my best friend, because I figured he would never love me back. I'm so scarred, in mind and body; what would he want with such a broken Duskling? So I was going to keep it a secret forever that the strange little blue creature had feelings for him, but that's another reason I wanted him to be safe and happy... because seeing him happy would make me happy too. Just in the spirit of perfect honesty. Resurrections are only needed for people who still have more they are required to do in this life. I'd say holding a god at bay qualifies as a life well-lived. Well, he'd spent most of his life defending the innocent. He was very strong, and he used that strength to protect others. Maybe this was the last thing he had to do, but maybe not. We couldn't know that. Perhaps the man deserves a second chance at life, since his first chance was stolen by the dark god. The Heavens can wait. That was my line of thinking as well. Further, the paladin could be right. If places where evil gods have walked can forever twist the land (indeed, the Book of Vile Darkness makes mention of this), imagine the soul that resides with it, feeling the thoughts of pure malevolent evil power... Such a person, at best, would be driven to madness. No, it's best in that situation to let the celestial realms heal those scars. Let the dead man rest in peace. I pretended I wasn't worried about that, but I was. I was so scared for him. I didn't know what would be left of him. Would he even still be sane? I talked to him several times while he was possessed-- talked by magic, of course, he wouldn't have risked getting near me until we were ready for the final battle-- and every time he would reassure me, "I'm still here." That made me feel a lot better, but after the dust settled from the battle, would there still be anything left of him? I didn't know. But I'm the healer. I had to try. I think that whether he's ressurected or not would, in the end, be his choice. You can't ressurect an unwilling spirit. Since it's his life we're talking about, it would be best to cast the spell and let him decide. You know, that's exactly how this was resolved. I suggested that to the paladin, and the paladin agreed, though he wasn't thrilled about it. At the time the best I could do myself was Reincarnation, and I thought a new body was the last thing our friend needed as he tried to recover. I didn't have much money (being a do-gooder is not very lucrative in our part of the world,) but what I did have was almost enough for a Raise Dead spell. I hoped that the clerics would be generous, based on our friend's deeds. They were... they actually provided a True Resurrection in exchange for the gold I was able to offer them. They cast the spell, and our friend's spirit agreed to return. He was in surprisingly good shape, mentally. I should have expected that. I've seen him go through some pretty awful things before, although nothing near as bad as this. He's not the type to obsess, or to indulge in regret or self-pity. I know it wasn't easy for him. He had horrible memories, flashbacks, nightmares... but all that faded in time. There is no darkness in him, that I'm sure of. Our friend had been willing to die, but he didn't want to die. He would rather be alive, and wanted to try to move past what had happened to him. He still felt he had more to do... that the world still needed healing too, those were the words he said to me. He wanted to keep fighting for those who couldn't defend themselves. He had a lot to live for. And as it turned out, he loved me too, and because he came back we got our chance to be together. We eventually got married, and a few years later I bore his child. There was healing for both of us, and happiness. But I will say again, we didn't know any of this at the time! Back then, everything seemed dark. It seemed like things could never be alright again. That makes a difference in how you understand the story. Things were much less clear then. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this matter. I feel much better about paladins now. I wouldn't be scared of a paladin anymore, knowing they don't all judge so harshly. -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer
Paladin_Hiroshi 06-09-07, 05:04 PM	Paladin, I am a pilgrim, dedicated to no god, but to the upkeep of good without violence, where possible. I fight with a quarterstave and try not to kill if at all possible... My question is; hypothetically, if a child asked for your protection, and you agreed, but then a group of men asked you where the child was, and said he was a pickpocket, would you give the child over, or honour your deal?
DreamerInsane 06-09-07, 05:48 PM	In my opinion, the honourable course for a Paladin would be to protect the child, but to force him/her to give back what was stolen. Possibly repay the stolen goods with work. Of course, if he does that, a Paladin is, in my opinion, honour-bound to try teaching the child not to steal. Perhaps train him in a real job so he can earn a living lawfully.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 06:03 PM	*Eyes shine bright amber again, and the radiant halo is active.* Now I must answer you point by point. I may halt you at your first assumption. You label the Blackguard evil. You assume he wishes harm upon the innocent, you assume he is wicked and corrupt. Why? Some authority told you to do so. That authority being some celestial being trying to tell you how to live your existence. You may, but you would be wrong about my assumptions. We know that blackguards wish harm upon the innocent because that is their defining feature. Without that, without wickedness and corruption, they would not be blackguards. The indiscriminate and selfish hate which you propose is indeed wishing harm in itself, and the arbitrary methods of judgement mean that it is directed against the innocent. My knowledge, not assumption, of blackguards is based on my own experience, on history of their deeds, and the taint I have sensed on their souls. When I meet someone I hear the cries of pain from every innocent they have ever harmed and every innocent that they seek to harm. That leaves little doubt upon meeting a blackguard. And yes, I do accept being told by celestials, because I trust their word. Angels are honest. Disagree with a god, and they may try to smite you from existence. Merely...disagree. Attempt to substitute your decision making power for theirs, and you fill find yourself plummetting much like a morning star. Do such beings view themselves as evil upon coming to this disagreement? No...Certainly they do not. Its a line drawn in the sand. Its a declaration of Holy War. Do you even know what you are talking about? Do you even address paladinhood? Mere disagreement is not the issue. Instead, it is one misusing that decision making power, that we abhor. You speak as if oppression of the innocent is your right. 'Tis not. Note that I do not answer to a god. When you are at war, you choose your allys accordingly. A Blackguard turned away from a god before, what makes you think he won't do it again once his ends have been met? Addiction. Power. Vanity. Vice. Those are why. Blackguards are weaklings and cowards who are selfish and cruel, and that makes them weak. The path they choose enables them to hide from their weakness, as they revel in their faults and call themselves strong. It is mere self-delusion. Don't give me that..'the devil owns his soul' nonsense. If the devil owned his soul, he wouldn't have a soul, he couldn't have a soul if he didn't own it, so its a ridiculous statement to begin with. How can he simultaneously have a soul and not have a soul? Answer, you can't. You always own your soul - don't let anyone tell you different. And yet you could do foolish things with your soul. Pledging that soul to darkness ensures a place in the lower planes for it. So Blackguards have a definate motive to please their dark masters, for the hope of better treatment in their otherwise nightmarish afterlife. Since its a war, one can easily find allys. And when one cannot, one is forced to rely upon themselves. Strength can be gained from such an exercise. What I find interesting is that by arguing the point of virtues, the precedent has been set that a Blackguard ~may~ have virtue, however, we now debate of the specifics. The principle is not out of the question, we simply are now debating the details. All we have established so far is that blackguards pervert and corrupt virtues. Which was obvious. Now we are establishing the vice of the blackguard. And how it diminishes them. Well, Virtues vary from Paladin to Paladin. Why align the virtues upon 'Love'. Hate is an equally potent conduit. I recall seeing many a Paladin here claim hatred of all that is evil. Do you claim a Blackguard does not feel the same hatred? The only difference is that the Blackguard does not feel constrained upon acting on that Hate. Or so constrained in the target of his hate. Or hatred of better things. A blackguard is evil by any definition I know of. That fact has significance. And my virtues are not aligned upon love, but that is besides the point. A Blackguard is formed when he chooses to abandon the support of all three pillars of normative ethics. It is a fundamental reassessment of what he believes. He may support a different configuration of those three pillars, but is not foolish enough to try all three - as he knows the consequential paradox outlined so many times. He is no longer aligned with one of many gods. Who's to say he does not simply align with another? Does he need a god at all? So long as his power is drawn from a pure source, a deity is not required. Abandon your prejudice of those who would turn from false gods. They have chosen a path of their own making. They reject your opinion, your gods opinion. They view themselves as righteous, and you... you are simply wrong. Who arbitrates right and wrong? Your god, you say? Why not his? Why not you? Why not himself? Who is to say we need a god at all? My power is drawn from a pure source, without the need for a diety. My power is the virtues made flesh. Do not confuse us with the worshippers of evil who bow and scrape and beg for power. Indeed, a Blackguard requires infernal intervention to gain his dark powers. He requires a master. You assume that we are slaves to gods, whereas you and your foul allies are but slaves to vice and villainy. We have no prejudice, we have seen and judged for ourselves. You assume that we are monotheists who judge only the word of one god as valid, yet I serve no god and other paladins serve many. You assume there must be an arbiter for right and wrong. It is not decided, it must be understood. We can make our own judgements, we do not determine morality. And the judgements of a blackguard are pathetically and laughably self-serving. Dear mage, I implore you, turn away from such a path of corruption, defy the blindness that has been hazed over your eyes. Darkness has clouded you. It betrays you. It lies to you. Why did you become a wizard? Was it for knowledge? Yet you align yourselves with deceivers, what knowledge could you find with them? Instead, find knowledge among honest men, that you would find truth. Do you seek power? Then see good folk made safe, see innocents thrive through your own efforts and magics and power you shall indeed have through such an act. It is a far greater act to make something worthwhile, to add to the world, than to pull down that of value. Taking is but the pettiness of the gutter thief on a larger scale. When we all give, no one is diminished. In fact, we are all strengthened.
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 06:09 PM	I know that (that is also why enlarge person is on the list, the objects listed get bigger with the target IIRC, don't know about there flames though) but unless the building is built out of something highly flamable your foe is going to follow you out before it gets to be a real danger with those. *explains Molotov cocktails in character* Are Molotov cocktails in any way agenst the paladin code? Alchemists fire and boiling oil have been used to much the same purpose and effect, although never so cheaply. Your inventiveness impresses me. Well, that resolves how we set fire to the building. :D *The Duskling listens intently and seriously to the words spoken to her, smiling briefly when she receives a hug-- she's given many such hugs herself, the only thing she ever really does impulsively.* Thank you all for your thoughts. As I mentioned before, this situation occurred a decade ago, and has been resolved. The reason I didn't say anything about how it was resolved is that this is all we knew at the time, so it would be unfair to add information to the story that would influence your judgment. I was concerned about this as well, but the way the battle with the dark god was resolved, we felt it was unlikely. Our friend died before the god was defeated, and the god went on to possess several other party members for a few moments each. At that point I started to worry that we were fighting an opponent too strong to defeat, but we had to keep trying. Eventually the god took a physical form, but by that time we had weakened it significantly. It turns out the other gods were pretty mad at it for what it had been doing-- the good gods because it was hurting people, and the evil gods because it had taken over too much of their own territory and they were jealous. So in the end the other gods went after it, and ripped it into pieces, each taking a part of it into their own realms. I doubt the evil god is dead, but I also think it's in a state where it can't come back anytime soon. So we didn't think that raising our friend would make the god's return any more likely, given what happened. Because we care about him. Because we missed him. Because I... I never told the paladin this, because it didn't make any difference. I would have fought the same way for any of my friends. But... I loved the fighter. I kept that a secret from everyone but my best friend, because I figured he would never love me back. I'm so scarred, in mind and body; what would he want with such a broken Duskling? So I was going to keep it a secret forever that the strange little blue creature had feelings for him, but that's another reason I wanted him to be safe and happy... because seeing him happy would make me happy too. Just in the spirit of perfect honesty. Well, he'd spent most of his life defending the innocent. He was very strong, and he used that strength to protect others. Maybe this was the last thing he had to do, but maybe not. We couldn't know that. That was my line of thinking as well. I pretended I wasn't worried about that, but I was. I was so scared for him. I didn't know what would be left of him. Would he even still be sane? I talked to him several times while he was possessed-- talked by magic, of course, he wouldn't have risked getting near me until we were ready for the final battle-- and every time he would reassure me, "I'm still here." That made me feel a lot better, but after the dust settled from the battle, would there still be anything left of him? I didn't know. But I'm the healer. I had to try. You know, that's exactly how this was resolved. I suggested that to the paladin, and the paladin agreed, though he wasn't thrilled about it. At the time the best I could do myself was Reincarnation, and I thought a new body was the last thing our friend needed as he tried to recover. I didn't have much money (being a do-gooder is not very lucrative in our part of the world,) but what I did have was almost enough for a Raise Dead spell. I hoped that the clerics would be generous, based on our friend's deeds. They were... they actually provided a True Resurrection in exchange for the gold I was able to offer them. They cast the spell, and our friend's spirit agreed to return. He was in surprisingly good shape, mentally. I should have expected that. I've seen him go through some pretty awful things before, although nothing near as bad as this. He's not the type to obsess, or to indulge in regret or self-pity. I know it wasn't easy for him. He had horrible memories, flashbacks, nightmares... but all that faded in time. There is no darkness in him, that I'm sure of. Our friend had been willing to die, but he didn't want to die. He would rather be alive, and wanted to try to move past what had happened to him. He still felt he had more to do... that the world still needed healing too, those were the words he said to me. He wanted to keep fighting for those who couldn't defend themselves. He had a lot to live for. And as it turned out, he loved me too, and because he came back we got our chance to be together. We eventually got married, and a few years later I bore his child. There was healing for both of us, and happiness. But I will say again, we didn't know any of this at the time! Back then, everything seemed dark. It seemed like things could never be alright again. That makes a difference in how you understand the story. Things were much less clear then. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this matter. I feel much better about paladins now. I wouldn't be scared of a paladin anymore, knowing they don't all judge so harshly. -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer Dear Lylessa, I am so happy for you. Few men could do better, with the devotion and care you have shown to him. I am so glad that your feelings for each other did not remain secret. With you waiting for him he was sure to have much to live for. *Bows, steps back*
Viseryn 06-09-07, 07:24 PM	If a Paladin is asked if he is mute, and he remains silent is that a lie? How do you feel about the variant sects of Necromancery that merely animate corpses and do not involve the manipulation of souls? *expalins the USA PATRIOT Act in character* what do you think of the PATRIOT Act? *explains Molotov cocktails in character* Are Molotov cocktails in any way agenst the paladin code? 1. Not in the strictest terms of the word "lie", but there'd be no reason to hide something like that anyway. 2. It depends what end they use the animated corpses to. 3. (OOC: I completely hate it, sorry. I can't give a different response in-character, which wouldn't exactly be fair.) 4. Stormbrand addressed that one, I think.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-09-07, 09:55 PM	All we have established so far is that blackguards pervert and corrupt virtues. Which was obvious. Virtues are a function of societal value. A virtue to you may be a sin in another culture. They align upon certain axis of reason and emotional charge. Yours is not the only virtue. Now we are establishing the vice of the blackguard. And how it diminishes them. No, not as such. According to your virtue, perhaps...perhaps. Though, it would seem that label is applied to many peoples who have never met an outsider by those of your order. Blackguards are feared for their aggression, their guile, and yes..consorting with fiends and demons - a necessary bargin. It would not have been necessary if certain self righteous powers had not witheld power when it was needed. Or so constrained in the target of his hate. Or hatred of better things. A blackguard is evil by any definition I know of. That fact has significance. You assume the Blackguard has lost complete control. He is a villain to his enemies. Feared, and the title is most justly earned I assure you. To his friends? A hero. A champion. A war-hero. Men march to war and kill swaths of their enemies with a single attack, a magical spell, or their sabatoge. When a wizard flings elementals from a catapult, its genius...when a blackguard does it - its not 'honorable'. Tsh **The elderly wizard sneers at what he perceives as idiocy ** And my virtues are not aligned upon love, but that is besides the point. No, no. Its important. What ARE they based on? Who is to say we need a god at all? My power is drawn from a pure source, without the need for a diety. My power is the virtues made flesh. Do not confuse us with the worshippers of evil who bow and scrape and beg for power. Indeed, a Blackguard requires infernal intervention to gain his dark powers. He requires a master. There are ways to power unknown to a child such as yourself. (( I believe there is a clause indicating 'sometimes they follow evil npcs' so I assume that if a Paladin can draw upon ambient divine powers, then a blackguard can draw upon fell powers just as easily. :D )) You assume that we are slaves to gods, whereas you and your foul allies are but slaves to vice and villainy. Though a paladin without a god is less a fool than his guided peers, he may still fall prey to indecisiveness and lack the fervor required for victory. We have no prejudice, we have seen and judged for ourselves. So you have seen a man's burdened life through its entirety. You know their soul, their motivation - for each and every single Blackguard known. You know why they chose the path of Power, at whatever price was necessary. Come now, young one. You cannot know these things. You know only the reputation spoken of by the Blackguards enemy. And if you should happen to get in the way of one such warrior...well...no wonder you think they are evil. Its a wonder you're still alive. You assume there must be an arbiter for right and wrong. It is not decided, it must be understood. We can make our own judgements, we do not determine morality. I cannot expand upon an already contradictary statement. You make decisions, yet you don't make decisions. Tsh.. And the judgements of a blackguard are pathetically and laughably self-serving. Ahhhhh... there it is. There it is indeed. You serve others. You are the tool of others. Does this please you? Does it give you pleasure to be used, discarded, abused, over and over and over and over again...hahaha Why do you do it? For the love of the people? Well, good Paladin, there is one substitute for that love which I doubt you could foster... Pride. (( insert combat scene? I love these dialogs. :) ))
Viseryn 06-09-07, 11:13 PM	Virtues are a function of societal value. A virtue to you may be a sin in another culture. They align upon certain axis of reason and emotional charge. Yours is not the only virtue. I read a book where a man travelled to different cultures and asked the same questions over and over; What is virtue? What is good? What is piety? What is justice? What is moderation? What is courage? This only served to show that, while people have many different words, they are all the same virtues in spirit. Blackguards are those who reject these virutes- not always a bad thing, but it is in this case. No, not as such. According to your virtue, perhaps...perhaps. Though, it would seem that label is applied to many peoples who have never met an outsider by those of your order. Blackguards are feared for their aggression, their guile, and yes..consorting with fiends and demons - a necessary bargin. It would not have been necessary if certain self righteous powers had not witheld power when it was needed. Paladins do not accuse blindly as you yourself are doing. We go there and see. You call it neccesary. Neccesary?! A Paladin gets divine power equal to that of a blackguard. Blackguards break all morals and oaths to gain power that they already had. How is this neccesary? You assume the Blackguard has lost complete control. He is a villain to his enemies. Feared, and the title is most justly earned I assure you. To his friends? A hero. A champion. A war-hero. Men march to war and kill swaths of their enemies with a single attack, a magical spell, or their sabatoge. When a wizard flings elementals from a catapult, its genius...when a blackguard does it - its not 'honorable'. Tsh **The elderly wizard sneers at what he perceives as idiocy ** What is there to assume? We speak not of assumptions, but rather of certanties that any ten people you pick will tell you, any twenty. Any who sees a Blackguard as a hero deserves to be his friend, and that is not a compliment. I would not call something like that dishonorable in itself. The Blackguard is dishonorable through all, however. No, no. Its important. What ARE they based on? My virtues have been stated. Courage, integrity, fortitude, and fealty to humanity. No, rather fealty to sentient life. My virtues are based on reason and on what best serves humanity. There are ways to power unknown to a child such as yourself. (( I believe there is a clause indicating 'sometimes they follow evil npcs' so I assume that if a Paladin can draw upon ambient divine powers, then a blackguard can draw upon fell powers just as easily. :D )) There are several ways on the path of life, but a sad few are pure and moral. Though a paladin without a god is less a fool than his guided peers, he may still fall prey to indecisiveness and lack the fervor required for victory. A Paladin, with or without a god, is wiser than someone who trades their soul away for power. So you have seen a man's burdened life through its entirety. You know their soul, their motivation - for each and every single Blackguard known. You know why they chose the path of Power, at whatever price was necessary. Come now, young one. You cannot know these things. You know only the reputation spoken of by the Blackguards enemy. And if you should happen to get in the way of one such warrior...well...no wonder you think they are evil. Its a wonder you're still alive. I do not claim to understand a Blackguard. Their decision is to abandon their sword and take up a chain of slavery is hardly understandable. Blackguards may have power, but that is how evil rewards its followers- power and more power, until the last moment when it abandons them to the eternal torture of whatever plane you are filed away to. I cannot expand upon an already contradictary statement. You make decisions, yet you don't make decisions. Tsh.. The statement is contradictory in letter, but I believe the point is that morality is not something you know, but something you understand. Ahhhhh... there it is. There it is indeed. You serve others. You are the tool of others. Does this please you? Does it give you pleasure to be used, discarded, abused, over and over and over and over again...hahaha I serve others, and I take no shame from it. It gives me greatest pleasure to help others. However, I never allow myself to be used ((unless Lord DM decrees it -_-)), discarded, or abused. The path of a Paladin is of humility and fealty to humanity. Why do you do it? For the love of the people? Well, good Paladin, there is one substitute for that love which I doubt you could foster... Pride. (( insert combat scene? I love these dialogs. :) )) Yes. For my fealty to humanity. Unless you care to try to refute that, it'll come up alot. Pride? I will show you pride. I am proud of the order of the Paladins, of honor, for only the honor of a Paladin withlasts death. *hand tightens on sword hilt, but a wizened old archmage intervenes* "You call yourself a wizard?" he says, "Magic is a force to help people. Someone who hurts others and cloaks it in pretending to be the only one who understands morality- perhaps even to himself- is not someone who I want practicing the same magic as me."
Stormbrand 06-09-07, 11:58 PM	Virtues are a function of societal value. A virtue to you may be a sin in another culture. They align upon certain axis of reason and emotional charge. Yours is not the only virtue. My virtues are those of Heaven, supported due to agreement and not submission. That may be a difficult concept for you to understand, but the importance of those virtues does not require a higher authority. Look back to my Code and Oath to better understand the Virtues I live by. Do you claim that all virtues are equally valid? That another virtue is equal to that I uphold? If so, how do you justify the domination of others as your own dark path supports? As surely that destroys and opposes other virtues? No, not as such. According to your virtue, perhaps...perhaps. Though, it would seem that label is applied to many peoples who have never met an outsider by those of your order. Blackguards are feared for their aggression, their guile, and yes..consorting with fiends and demons - a necessary bargin. It would not have been necessary if certain self righteous powers had not witheld power when it was needed. Again, you presume to know my order. What label by the way? You also presume a right to be given power freely, and that the Heavens are obligated to give that to you, or to the prospective blackguard. Have you ever considered that the power was witheld for good reason? That one who would become a blackguard would misuse power so greatly. After all, it is indeed what they do with their power from consorting with fiends. You assume the Blackguard has lost complete control. He is a villain to his enemies. Feared, and the title is most justly earned I assure you. To his friends? A hero. A champion. A war-hero. Men march to war and kill swaths of their enemies with a single attack, a magical spell, or their sabatoge. When a wizard flings elementals from a catapult, its genius...when a blackguard does it - its not 'honorable'. Tsh **The elderly wizard sneers at what he perceives as idiocy ** Such a double-standard exists only in your mind. Is this sense of persecution the cause of your beliefs? Then my regrets for your misunderstanding, and the path it has led you down. Besides, flinging elementals from catapults would do as much damage to the elemental upon impact as it would the target. To the friends of a blackguard? Any who counts a blackguard as his friend has been woefully deceived. A blackguard has minions who he subjugates, and he has victims. Believing otherwise is just supporting the deception. Tsh indeed. No, no. Its important. What ARE they based on? Fairness. There are ways to power unknown to a child such as yourself. (( I believe there is a clause indicating 'sometimes they follow evil npcs' so I assume that if a Paladin can draw upon ambient divine powers, then a blackguard can draw upon fell powers just as easily. :D )) A blackguard must make contact with a fiend to gain his power. There must be an infernal broker for the fell powers. Though a paladin without a god is less a fool than his guided peers, he may still fall prey to indecisiveness and lack the fervor required for victory. Aw. Thank you. A backhanded complement. More seriously, is a blackguard with a god more the fool however? You will find that paladins have no shortage of fervour. Here they have been very decisive. Directing that fervour to higher causes seems but a more worthy way for it to be used. So you have seen a man's burdened life through its entirety. You know their soul, their motivation - for each and every single Blackguard known. You know why they chose the path of Power, at whatever price was necessary. Have you seen such? Do you know their soul and motivation? You speak as though you do. We know that a blackguard made a choice to accept what he knew full well was wrong. He had his reasons, and may be pitied for them, but is not freed of personal responsibility for such a thing. We know that the power of decision was indeed his. Come now, young one. You cannot know these things. You know only the reputation spoken of by the Blackguards enemy. And if you should happen to get in the way of one such warrior...well...no wonder you think they are evil. Its a wonder you're still alive. Though young, with my twentieth birthday yet ahead of me, I have indeed gotten in the way of several such warriors. And have stopped them dead. Do not expect me to be intimidated. I cannot expand upon an already contradictary statement. You make decisions, yet you don't make decisions. Tsh.. Forgive my ineloquence. We can seek to interpret morality, but no entity is able to define it. Ahhhhh... there it is. There it is indeed. You serve others. You are the tool of others. Does this please you? Does it give you pleasure to be used, discarded, abused, over and over and over and over again...hahaha Why do you do it? For the love of the people? Well, good Paladin, there is one substitute for that love which I doubt you could foster... Pride. A tool of others? That I am able to give of my own free will? That the world is a better place for my efforts? That pleases me. Think of it, evil mage, I have a power that you lack. *chuckles* My reasons for acting as I do. Compassion. Integrity. Accomplishment. Do you not realise, mayhap my accomplishments can be reduced to dust. Yet your accomplishments, and those of any blackguard, were always dust. Do you not see that you can do greater things? (( insert combat scene? I love these dialogs. :) )) (Me to:) )
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-10-07, 12:40 AM	Allow me to paint for you, a rather undesirable situation. You are placed in a Motron's Fork scenerio - a choice between two equally unpleasant choices. You are forced to make a choice between saving two people. Both are equally good, are not willing to die for one another, and will amount to the same total good in the world if they survive. Though, as paladins I imagine such things would not factor in at all. Everyone is equal, right? One's a thief and an abusive thug, one's a saintly nun...but ...hey...both 'equal'. Now...you can't save both. You know you can't You have no ally to rely upon. However, a demon had offered you one get out of jail free card - no he didn't rig the situation. Take it, and that demon has the power to save both of these unfortunate people. The trick? You'd have to fall and become a Blackguard at that very moment. You would have to summon him. What are the conditions to being a Blackguard really? You summon fiendish creatures...you cast black magic...you can perform attacks on the unaware. You use poisons. Overall, save for the fiends...you're simply a better combatant. How are the fiends summoned? Sent by some dark god? Could you summon them on your own through sheer willpower...a paladin needs no god to summon celestials..a Blackguard needs no evil god to summon fiends. The large portion of Blackguard are given their powers through an evil contractor... but not all. No not all. You like to paint them as canonically evil because its convenient. Easy to...prejudge them. And many of them are vile, weak, and serve malevolent gods. But, it is not necessarily true. So say this Paladin summons the demon, as he had the ability to do so since birth. He is aligned to dark energies naturally. He saves both people, and the demon is dismissed. Why would a BLACKGUARD do such a thing?! The answer is simple. They have free will. They didn't start life evil. And the fact they can draw upon dark forces does not mean they are consumed by it. KILLING is an inheritly evil act...yet Paladins forgive themselves for it. Why is summoning a fiend any different? The fiend saved people, didn't it? How do you explain this behavior? Your condemnation can't seem to wrap around it as easily... Is it any different when those same dark powers are used upon the villain that put the people in jeopardy? I suppose this kind of behavior is more typical of the 'Greyguard', though paladins have been known to lean toward a more relaxed 'neutral' viewpoint from time to time. If the Blackguard can walk the line in this example, it is possible for him to walk the line his entire life. In terms of power, however, his hate must be strong to summon forth greater fiends and perform great acts of power...however..nothing states he need retain this power every hour of every day...
Stormbrand 06-10-07, 01:33 AM	Allow me to paint for you, a rather undesirable situation. You are placed in a Motron's Fork scenerio - a choice between two equally unpleasant choices. You are forced to make a choice between saving two people. Both are equally good, are not willing to die for one another, and will amount to the same total good in the world if they survive. Though, as paladins I imagine such things would not factor in at all. Everyone is equal, right? One's a thief and an abusive thug, one's a saintly nun...but ...hey...both 'equal'. Then you imagine wrong. Innocents come before the guilty. Not everyone is equal, but higher status does not create any right to treat others badly. To answer your situation, I was already planning to save whichever one I could. Presumably the one I was most sure that I could save. Now...you can't save both. You know you can't You have no ally to rely upon. However, a demon had offered you one get out of jail free card - no he didn't rig the situation. Take it, and that demon has the power to save both of these unfortunate people. The trick? You'd have to fall and become a Blackguard at that very moment. You would have to summon him. This involves accepting the premise that the demon is being honest. An unlikely event to begin with. Now, the answer is that falling and becoming a blackguard would involve serving evil, a choice which would lead to far greater harm than that which would be spared. What are the conditions to being a Blackguard really? You summon fiendish creatures...you cast black magic...you can perform attacks on the unaware. You use poisons. Overall, save for the fiends...you're simply a better combatant. Focusing on performing attacks on the unawares and using poison suggests an inclination towards treachery. A blackguard is a better betrayer than he is a combatant. How are the fiends summoned? Sent by some dark god? Could you summon them on your own through sheer willpower...a paladin needs no god to summon celestials..a Blackguard needs no evil god to summon fiends. The large portion of Blackguard are given their powers through an evil contractor... but not all. No not all. My powers, drawn from no god, are virtue made flesh. Logically, the powers for a blackguard without a contractor would be iniquity made flesh. How is this better than worship of darkness? You like to paint them as canonically evil because its convenient. Easy to...prejudge them. And many of them are vile, weak, and serve malevolent gods. But, it is not necessarily true. As you prejudge us? Please. Show me the blackguard who is not vile & weak & a servant of darkness. If not a servant of a malevolent god, he is a slave to his own desires. So say this Paladin summons the demon, as he had the ability to do so since birth. He is aligned to dark energies naturally. He saves both people, and the demon is dismissed. Very strange situation. More difficult to believe by the minute. Why would a BLACKGUARD do such a thing?! The answer is simple. They have free will. They didn't start life evil. And the fact they can draw upon dark forces does not mean they are consumed by it. KILLING is an inheritly evil act...yet Paladins forgive themselves for it. Why is summoning a fiend any different? The fiend saved people, didn't it? Did the fiend save people? Save them for what? Dinner? Nothing would stop the fiend from going back and murdering the two people afterwards. How do you explain this behavior? Your condemnation can't seem to wrap around it as easily... Is it any different when those same dark powers are used upon the villain that put the people in jeopardy? I suppose this kind of behavior is more typical of the 'Greyguard', though paladins have been known to lean toward a more relaxed 'neutral' viewpoint from time to time. It is no different. In both cases there are further consequences to dealing with fiends. The dark powers have their price. And that price is seldom your own to pay. If the Blackguard can walk the line in this example, it is possible for him to walk the line his entire life. In terms of power, however, his hate must be strong to summon forth greater fiends and perform great acts of power...however..nothing states he need retain this power every hour of every day... Are you suggesting that it is possible to be a part-time blackguard? Were he to lose his powers, he would have to re-earn them once more. So he indeed must retain his powers every hour of every day, at least if he wants to be able to keep access to them. You keep describing good as myopic, and yet it is the myopic decision to accept the bargain.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-10-07, 12:42 PM	Then you imagine wrong. Innocents come before the guilty. Not everyone is equal, but higher status does not create any right to treat others badly. To answer your situation, I was already planning to save whichever one I could. Presumably the one I was most sure that I could save. Its a Motron's Fork. You think you can save either one, but not both. And so, are you judging that merely being a thief warrants DEATH? This involves accepting the premise that the demon is being honest. An unlikely event to begin with. Now, the answer is that falling and becoming a blackguard would involve serving evil, a choice which would lead to far greater harm than that which would be spared. Serving evil? Serving one's own purposes which may be good or evil. Its not the same thing. Focusing on performing attacks on the unawares and using poison suggests an inclination towards treachery. A blackguard is a better betrayer than he is a combatant. Dead by blade or by rose petals, one is still dead. The method of their death does not matter unless you plan to send out a message to those who would watch the combat. If no one is watching, it does not matter. My powers, drawn from no god, are virtue made flesh. Logically, the powers for a blackguard without a contractor would be iniquity made flesh. How is this better than worship of darkness? Absense of morals. An emotional plea. A force of raw primal will. Try defining evil some time. You'll find you end up using a lot of negation logic. Absences of rational ideals etc.. leaving behind the raw primal soul. As you prejudge us? Please. Show me the blackguard who is not vile & weak & a servant of darkness. If not a servant of a malevolent god, he is a slave to his own desires. How can one be a slave to yourself? Ridiculous statement. As for examples...a rare find that does not fall prey to fiendish influence. Most are not strong enough to control their true soul and still function in the context of mortal society. But there are a few.. perthaps closer by than you think. Did the fiend save people? Save them for what? Dinner? Nothing would stop the fiend from going back and murdering the two people afterwards. Save for the fact that it was dismissed back to the hellish planes. If necessary, it could be killed. I could as easily suggest a summoned celestial is somehow driven mad and it could rampage across the land, killing many. It is no different. In both cases there are further consequences to dealing with fiends. The dark powers have their price. And that price is seldom your own to pay. Such is the nature of all alliances, even those with mortal men. However, there is certainty in the motivation of fiends - they are predictable. Your fear of power leaves you weak, young paladin. Are you suggesting that it is possible to be a part-time blackguard? Were he to lose his powers, he would have to re-earn them once more. So he indeed must retain his powers every hour of every day, at least if he wants to be able to keep access to them. (( The flavor surrounding summoning unnatural powers is variable depending on the gm and the player. I had one such player play a Blackguard under these circumstances. During RP scenerios he would be a rather plain fighter with no feats. When he was angered, his Blackguard powers returned - in rather dramatic convenience - when tasks required them. )) Suggesting? No.. I'm telling you. You keep describing good as myopic, and yet it is the myopic decision to accept the bargain. And to forego it is NEGLIGENT.
DX2052 06-10-07, 12:58 PM	I must ask, Of which of these aspects is most important to a paladin, is it his strength, his speed, or is it his guile?
darkneolink 06-10-07, 12:59 PM	My good friend lets calm down... he is not saying that being a thief warrants death or anything like that... If I were in the same situation I'd put my chances on destroying the demon thus saving both. About the death by blades or rose petals... When a paladin fights a fair and square fight and beats evil... a signal of hope arise in the heart of the inocents. But if he goes and uses trickery... the signal is that without unfair play good can not win... and I don't mean that the paladi must act in a stupid way no sir... a paladin know what advantages he has... and he uses them. To serve a demon is an evil act... because every act that you do in the name of such demon is in the name of evil I don't know if I can define evil... but as I've stated before I almost became a blackguard in the past... and the feelings I had was of hate... repulsion... anger... I felt alone because in my mind the silver flame had forsaken me... my pride and my hubris did not let me see the mistake in my past... I don't know if I can define evil... but I can try to define what led my so far away from the path. You can be a slave of yourself... think about it this way... inside you there are 3 forces... one is tied more to tthe animal world... wich makes you follow your instincs... another is comanded by what you are suposed to do your "dutys"... and finally the 3rd force is the one wich mediates between these 2 forces A blackguard can be of either way... a slave of his natural pulsions seeking his own benefit and thus becoming a slave of himself (or more like the slave of his "Id")... or a slave of his "duty"... because if you go to any of the extremes you will fall. A Paladin on the other hand keeps within the 3rd force... he knows what he have to do but without losing himself in a zealous way... he does what he feels more correct but without turning into a beast. ((flavor varies from GM to GM but woa that is really neat... and fallen paladins are not featless fighter... they are d10 warriors n_n)) well then you're wrong... sorry you can't be part-time blackguard and part-time paladin... if you think like that then you really need to know more paladins (or blackguards but I really don't like it that way) It is not negligent to not accept the bargain... because as my good comrade said before... a Demon is unlikely to keep his word
Comus 06-10-07, 01:14 PM	Such nonsense. "Save one person, or turn evil and save both!" Bah. There is only one answer to such a bargain - refuse the demon and save one of the people. The Wrathful Knights of Order do not negotiate with fiends. You keep presenting the Blackguard as some kind of champion of free will, and suggest that he can do more good than a paladin because he is less restricted. You forget that a Blackguard must serve the cause of Evil in order to retain his powers - some would lose their powers in an instant for committing even a single good act. So what if they could potentially be a better combatant? If you cannot use power for anything useful, than it is not really power at all. All of your arguments spring forth from the same source. You seem to think we do not enjoy being good, or are not creative enough to find a third option when presented two undesirable choices. I don't do good because I'm a paladin, I'm a paladin because I do good. If I wanted power, I'd be a Wizard or a Cleric. If I wanted glory, I would be a king. All I want is to take the fight to the enemies of Good, and I don't care if anyone ever knows that I do so, as long as they don't suffer because I chose to do nothing. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-10-07, 01:38 PM	** A distinctly out of character moment ** Well, just so passers by get the proper idea: I'm just playing the part of devil's advocate - quite litterally I'd imagine. What defines virtue, what defines good? Is evil an objective thing, or is merely an absence of 'reasoned good'. From what I've been reading, it seems everyone is falling back upon the DMG and its default version of the Blackguard as being a human-fiend. Well, if thats the way you prefer to play, so be it. I won't bother you all any more by making you paladins question your virtues and goodly nature. :D
Hydryh 06-10-07, 01:49 PM	"Sir Boydson, who would you consider the greater villain? Is it the one motivated by personal vendettas, desire for wealth and delight in causing harm? Or is it the individual who believes him or herself justified by their conscience while tormenting those who innocently act in a way that this villain considers "Evil," even if the act itself is of a Neutral or even Good in nature? Some so devoted to a cause that they give no moral weight to their own actions. In other words, which do you think is worse, gross selfishness or gross self-righteousness?" Assuming that the results of the actions are identical, the person acting out of selfishness would be the worse of the two, in my view. I hold that Good deeds backed by Good intentions are ideal, followed by Evil acts brought on by Good intent (such as the slaying of a child to save a nation, or your example of the overly self-righteous person), then Good with Evil intent (for evil hidden by good can often strike deeper and more foully), and the worst is to do Evil with Evil intentions.
Hydryh 06-10-07, 01:56 PM	To my surprise, the paladin got very angry with me. He said that what I was suggesting was an abomination, and that because the evil god had been in our friend, he was too contaminated to live, and that his honour was gone. The paladin thought that because of what the god had done to our friend, he should stay dead. So... I was just wondering, was that typical of how paladins think? The matter has been decided, but I wondered if the other paladins would have sided with him or me? If the god's presence tainted the man's soul, twisting it into Evil, then it would be best to let him lie. If however the man was simply a Good man with a burden, as it seems from your story, the paladin was in the wrong. Raising the man to let him return to life free of the dark god's grip would have been a kind reward for his sustained goodness. Count Ian Boydson King's Highway Rotellus 893 A.E.
Stormbrand 06-10-07, 02:01 PM	Its a Motron's Fork. You think you can save either one, but not both. And so, are you judging that merely being a thief warrants DEATH? Note that before he was an 'abusive thug' as well. I am judging the 'saintly nun' as you put it to be more worthy of saving. Serving evil? Serving one's own purposes which may be good or evil. Its not the same thing. Have you forgotten the subject of discussion? A blackguard, a mortal fiend. One who draws power either from fiends or taps into them through his own base villainy. Either case would force his 'own purposes' to be evil. Dead by blade or by rose petals, one is still dead. The method of their death does not matter unless you plan to send out a message to those who would watch the combat. If no one is watching, it does not matter. It does matter. Treachery is a tool to bring low those who have placed their trust in you. A blackguard is better skilled to slay his allies than his enemies. A good man would have no need for such methods, as he is firm in his alliances with no intention of betraying them. My methods focus on killing my enemies, a blackguard specialises in killing his friends. Very counter-productive. Absense of morals. An emotional plea. A force of raw primal will. Try defining evil some time. You'll find you end up using a lot of negation logic. Absences of rational ideals etc.. leaving behind the raw primal soul. You will find you end up using a lot of outright lies. Notice that you do not answer my question. Evil is remarkably irrational, after all, why would one ignore their own conscience? How can one be a slave to yourself? Ridiculous statement. Do you truly know nothing, mage? Take your own greed and vanity. Like it or not, these rule you. Do not deny it, I sense your taint. There is darkness in your heart. To think, such talent as yours wasted on childish pursuits. A pity, mage. As for examples...a rare find that does not fall prey to fiendish influence. Most are not strong enough to control their true soul and still function in the context of mortal society. But there are a few.. perthaps closer by than you think. None of which you have shown me. Clearly you have no such example. Save for the fact that it was dismissed back to the hellish planes. If necessary, it could be killed. I could as easily suggest a summoned celestial is somehow driven mad and it could rampage across the land, killing many. As you say, fiends are predictable. The behaviour spoken of is consistant with fiends. The behaviour you would speak of is contrary to celestials. Try again. Your deceptions are pitifully ineffective. Such is the nature of all alliances, even those with mortal men. However, there is certainty in the motivation of fiends - they are predictable. Your fear of power leaves you weak, young paladin. And we take care in our alliances with mortal men, that they do not cause us to do wrong. To ally with mortal men seldom brings a cost of such innocent blood. As you say, fiends are predictable. They will betray you. That is predictable. How can you be so foolish as to speak in favour of such an alliance? (( The flavor surrounding summoning unnatural powers is variable depending on the gm and the player. I had one such player play a Blackguard under these circumstances. During RP scenerios he would be a rather plain fighter with no feats. When he was angered, his Blackguard powers returned - in rather dramatic convenience - when tasks required them. )) Suggesting? No.. I'm telling you. Then you are telling me lies. And to forego it is NEGLIGENT. 'Tis no such thing. Another lie seeking to undermine us. For we know that there will be great harm in accepting such a bargain. Tell me of your path, and why you follow it as you do. After all, in your efforts to undermine our faith, to glorify hatred, to ignore morals and logic, you have shown nothing worthwhile in your own path. Do so now.
Stormbrand 06-10-07, 02:04 PM	** A distinctly out of character moment ** Well, just so passers by get the proper idea: I'm just playing the part of devil's advocate - quite litterally I'd imagine. What defines virtue, what defines good? Is evil an objective thing, or is merely an absence of 'reasoned good'. From what I've been reading, it seems everyone is falling back upon the DMG and its default version of the Blackguard as being a human-fiend. Well, if thats the way you prefer to play, so be it. I won't bother you all any more by making you paladins question your virtues and goodly nature. :D Well, I thought human-fiend was the entire point of a blackguard? :) Besides, it is good to see how paladins react when their faith is tested.
Viseryn 06-10-07, 02:06 PM	Its a Motron's Fork. You think you can save either one, but not both. And so, are you judging that merely being a thief warrants DEATH? It's exactly as you say. You can save either one, but not both. If I could, I would save both, but in this case I save the one who will do good for others after I save him. I do not judge that being a thief warrants death, however, do you think I should save the thief over the innocent person? You'd also have an argument against Paladins if he said that, actually. Serving evil? Serving one's own purposes which may be good or evil. Its not the same thing. I serve my own purposes, sir. However, these purposes are for the good of society rather than my own good. A Blackguard serves his own purposes, but he "is in it for #1", and will hurt others for his own gain, quite unlike the hero you try to portray him as. Dead by blade or by rose petals, one is still dead. The method of their death does not matter unless you plan to send out a message to those who would watch the combat. If no one is watching, it does not matter. You've been saying this whole time that a Blackguard is more powerful. Now you say that he's more treacherous than powerful, but "they're just as dead". Absense of morals. An emotional plea. A force of raw primal will. Try defining evil some time. You'll find you end up using a lot of negation logic. Absences of rational ideals etc.. leaving behind the raw primal soul. Primal doesn't have a very good connotation either, even compared to evil. ;) How can one be a slave to yourself? Ridiculous statement. As for examples...a rare find that does not fall prey to fiendish influence. Most are not strong enough to control their true soul and still function in the context of mortal society. But there are a few.. perthaps closer by than you think. A Blackguard is a slave to himself in that, despite your claims, he has no reservation. Just the point before, you claimed he was "primal". Save for the fact that it was dismissed back to the hellish planes. If necessary, it could be killed. I could as easily suggest a summoned celestial is somehow driven mad and it could rampage across the land, killing many. No arguments. I would be fine with someone who could summon a demon and have it do his will, as long as he made no pact with it and he dismissed it sharply afterward. Such is the nature of all alliances, even those with mortal men. However, there is certainty in the motivation of fiends - they are predictable. Your fear of power leaves you weak, young paladin. Even if you can predict gods (or fiends), you cannot manipulate them. They will always manipulate you. Any pact you make with a fiend will leave you worse off. (( The flavor surrounding summoning unnatural powers is variable depending on the gm and the player. I had one such player play a Blackguard under these circumstances. During RP scenerios he would be a rather plain fighter with no feats. When he was angered, his Blackguard powers returned - in rather dramatic convenience - when tasks required them. )) Suggesting? No.. I'm telling you. ((Well, you can't bring something OOC into it right now! Let's at least go by RAW, okay? :D )) And to forego it is NEGLIGENT. It seems like you're admitting it's myopic, which is good enough for me. I don't see how forgoing this bargain is negligent.
Hydryh 06-10-07, 02:10 PM	Paladin, I am a pilgrim, dedicated to no god, but to the upkeep of good without violence, where possible. I fight with a quarterstave and try not to kill if at all possible... My question is; hypothetically, if a child asked for your protection, and you agreed, but then a group of men asked you where the child was, and said he was a pickpocket, would you give the child over, or honour your deal? You would be bound to honor your word, assuming the child was not Evil (and if picking pockets is his only crime, it would be unlikely at the least). Therefore, a paladin must always be cautious with regard to giving his word.
Hydryh 06-10-07, 02:20 PM	Our friend had been willing to die, but he didn't want to die. He would rather be alive, and wanted to try to move past what had happened to him. He still felt he had more to do... that the world still needed healing too, those were the words he said to me. He wanted to keep fighting for those who couldn't defend themselves. He had a lot to live for. And as it turned out, he loved me too, and because he came back we got our chance to be together. We eventually got married, and a few years later I bore his child. There was healing for both of us, and happiness. But I will say again, we didn't know any of this at the time! Back then, everything seemed dark. It seemed like things could never be alright again. That makes a difference in how you understand the story. Things were much less clear then. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this matter. I feel much better about paladins now. I wouldn't be scared of a paladin anymore, knowing they don't all judge so harshly. -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer My blessings to you both, and your family is welcome to visit if your paths take you to the doors of Farrowkeep. Count Ian Boydson King's Highway Rotellus 893 A.E.
Hydryh 06-10-07, 02:32 PM	Such nonsense. "Save one person, or turn evil and save both!" Bah. There is only one answer to such a bargain - refuse the demon and save one of the people. The Wrathful Knights of Order do not negotiate with fiends. You keep presenting the Blackguard as some kind of champion of free will, and suggest that he can do more good than a paladin because he is less restricted. You forget that a Blackguard must serve the cause of Evil in order to retain his powers - some would lose their powers in an instant for committing even a single good act. So what if they could potentially be a better combatant? If you cannot use power for anything useful, than it is not really power at all. All of your arguments spring forth from the same source. You seem to think we do not enjoy being good, or are not creative enough to find a third option when presented two undesirable choices. I don't do good because I'm a paladin, I'm a paladin because I do good. If I wanted power, I'd be a Wizard or a Cleric. If I wanted glory, I would be a king. All I want is to take the fight to the enemies of Good, and I don't care if anyone ever knows that I do so, as long as they don't suffer because I chose to do nothing. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. For once, Sir Vaughn Doum, we agree completely!
Evil DM Mk3 06-10-07, 02:37 PM	"There is a phrase that had just returned to me that I was told by Grand Master Hawkson. 'Any fool may die for a cause. Only the wise, skilled, loyal, honest and careful can live for one. To sacrifice yourself to it every day, bit by bit into the flame of life.' I feel that sums up how I view Paladinhood. I am aware of other paladins who have lives with others, lovers, children, surrounded by friends. I do not begrudge them it, nor doubt that it is possible, but I do not. There is a price on my head in Hell, there are cultists of every hue after my skin. I cannot bring others into my life safely. What of you?"
Stormbrand 06-10-07, 08:42 PM	"There is a phrase that had just returned to me that I was told by Grand Master Hawkson. 'Any fool may die for a cause. Only the wise, skilled, loyal, honest and careful can live for one. To sacrifice yourself to it every day, bit by bit into the flame of life.' I feel that sums up how I view Paladinhood. I am aware of other paladins who have lives with others, lovers, children, surrounded by friends. I do not begrudge them it, nor doubt that it is possible, but I do not. There is a price on my head in Hell, there are cultists of every hue after my skin. I cannot bring others into my life safely. What of you?" Worthy sentiments. You do honour with your sacrifice. My duties require that I be heavily involved with society, and my demesne serves as a haven for the just, founded on an oasis in a shattered wasteland. The site was found in the process of hunting the robber gangs lurking in the region. Finding the oasis was an opportunity for me to rescue the destitute and desperate from the shantytown of the local city. These poor men and women were led to the oasis, and organised from a bunch of helpless vagrants into a thriving community. My lives are with them. Often, more refugees from elsewhere had been found during quests, and they have joined the community which is now expanding. Furthermore, I have my warband, all brave and virtuous and loyal to me. Though without family, I am hardly alone.
Zandolit 06-11-07, 12:39 AM	Dear Lylessa, I am so happy for you. Few men could do better, with the devotion and care you have shown to him. I am so glad that your feelings for each other did not remain secret. With you waiting for him he was sure to have much to live for. *The Duskling blushes, turning her blue skin faintly purple.* He gave me a lot to live for, too. Those times were so dark; being able to trust him made it less frightening. It was easier not to give up, knowing he wouldn't either, and knowing he was relying on me. And now that things are better... well, I didn't realize I was capable of being so happy. He's a wonderful man. I'm very blessed to share my life with him. Thank you for your kind words about us. My blessings to you both, and your family is welcome to visit if your paths take you to the doors of Farrowkeep. Thank you. Should our journeys ever lead us to your land, we will be grateful to enjoy your hospitality. -Lylessa Uluki
BoringInfoGuy 06-11-07, 11:33 PM	Virtues are a function of societal value. A virtue to you may be a sin in another culture. They align upon certain axis of reason and emotional charge. Yours is not the only virtue. While this is true, what is surprising is not the differences between different cultures across the centuries, but the similarities. Perhaps I should introduce myself before speaking further. I am Boring Informative Guy, a shadow like being who is aware of your world, but not part of it. Those interested in knowing more can look here: In a way I was . . . created. . . in a place called Devoid of Thought. It was a place where many worlds intersected, and overlapped. The people there lived in two worlds at once. The DoT and what is sometimes called the RL world. Into this world fell a small lost crystal dragon named Shard. He was hatched in Pandemonium, and traveled for a time across Sigil and the Planes. He, rather uniquely, did not know of this so called RL. His singular existence in this dual world was the catalyst for my own. His lack of knowledge created a being of knowledge, myself. Not all knowing by far, but instead a seeker of knowledge. I know of your worlds, but do not exist in them, except in special realms like this one. Even here, all you can see is what appears to be a three dimensional shadow. There is shape, but no substance, volume, but no mass. As such, I can not touch or move anything, or be touched in return. Ok, back on topic. There is an idea that continually springs up in conversations, here and elsewhere, that morality is merely a "relative" concept that is different from culture to culture and changes from century to century. I wonder how much actual study has gone into this concept, or if it's merely taken on faith. From what I've learned on the subject, the surprising truth is that the basic morality systems created throughout history, regardless of culture, have much more in common than not. The primary difference is not on what is considered moral, but on who you need to treat in a moral manner. I do not consider myself on an expert on the subject. I am not well read enough on the subject. I can suggest reading C. S. Lewis's "The Abolition of Man", if you want to read the opinion of someone who was very well studied on history and morality. As for myself, what I personally do know is that of all the books I've read - which include translated works from other cultures - I've never come across something where the morality of the characters seem alien to me. Not once have I ever been unable to understand the concepts of right and wrong that motivate the characters.
maharai23 06-12-07, 01:47 AM	Oh, there are many virtues. Honesty, Compassion, Honor, Courage, Sincerity are but a few... Some societies go so far as to hold followers of such virtues in esteemed positions of authority. The Samurai who follows the above virtues, with a couple more, follows a code known as Bushido. Quite the noble code. Each tenet works to temper and strengthen its brethren. What of intelligence? perfection? ambition? After all, those gifted to see the best course, ambitious enough to take it, and who do what needs to be done flawlessly will succeed in that best course, will he not? What of Strength? How can you protect the weak, if you're not strong? Thus, are these not worthy things to strive for as well? Betterment of the self gives one more choice, more power with which to change things. Thus, perhaps compassion in generosity must be tempered with intelligence, to ensure that what you give is going to where it will be used best. Sometimes, honor must be left at the wayside, if a knife in the back of evil is the swiftest way to end the suffering of people. Oh, I am certainly not railing against fighting the good fight, dear sirs... Only that the pretentious air of allowing personal image to become important oft denies many opportunities for the advancement of good. Sometimes chaotic times call for chaotic means. I liken a paladin as to someone steadfastly swimming against the current, trying to reach a woman drowning upstream... When, if by swimming with the current, the hero can reach shore faster, move swiftly to the woman, and rescue her more readily. Man was not meant to be bound, and rules oft are not made with the circumstance of the individual in mind.
Zandolit 06-12-07, 02:14 AM	*Realizing she's conveyed the wrong impression about something, the Duskling seeks to clarify...* Sorry to talk again, I thought I was done, but I realized there was something I should have said, and it was important. Not typical. At least the attitude. By his willingness to condemn others based on horrors forced upon them, and the self-serving and presumptuous way he speaks of honour, I must voice my doubts on the paladinhood of this fellow. Certainly his attitude would bring shame to his Church and Order. Please don't judge him too harshly based on this one bad time. He had lots of good sides. He was very brave. He believed in goodness more than most people do. He tried to be a good follower of his god. He literally went toe to toe with pure evil and never faltered. He would have fought the evil god all alone if we'd let him. It's just that sometimes we all got confused about what was good and what was bad. The paladin was used to a life where good and evil were clearly defined and easy to see... and our life isn't that simple. It was a hard thing for him to walk into and have to learn to accept. It was easier for a healer like me. I'm used to brokenness and wounds, and how to heal them. I think he felt much more lost. I think that's why he made so many judgments about people. When he said things like that, I think he was just trying to hold onto who he was, and what he wanted to be. -Lylessa Uluki
DX2052 06-12-07, 02:40 AM	If a Blackguard returns to the path of light, what happens. (OOC:what happens mechanics wise as well? I see no clause on Ex-Blackguards) I realize that to return to the light is a rarer occurrence then to fall from it, but there have been instances of it (OOC:Points to Starwars, epically the RotJ with it's ending)
Stormbrand 06-12-07, 03:07 AM	*Realizing she's conveyed the wrong impression about something, the Duskling seeks to clarify...* Sorry to talk again, I thought I was done, but I realized there was something I should have said, and it was important. Please don't judge him too harshly based on this one bad time. He had lots of good sides. He was very brave. He believed in goodness more than most people do. He tried to be a good follower of his god. He literally went toe to toe with pure evil and never faltered. He would have fought the evil god all alone if we'd let him. It's just that sometimes we all got confused about what was good and what was bad. The paladin was used to a life where good and evil were clearly defined and easy to see... and our life isn't that simple. It was a hard thing for him to walk into and have to learn to accept. It was easier for a healer like me. I'm used to brokenness and wounds, and how to heal them. I think he felt much more lost. I think that's why he made so many judgments about people. When he said things like that, I think he was just trying to hold onto who he was, and what he wanted to be. -Lylessa Uluki First of all, dear Lylessa, no apologies are necessary. Your thoughts are always welcome. Very understanding of you. Let me say several things in response. Firstly, paladins are healers too, that is among our duties. Mostly, however, my concern was with his reactionary willingness to brand others as 'without honour', using the accusation as a convenience. We strive for honour, and our ability to judge the matter is a responsibility. To use those judgements self-servingly is a dereliction of duty. Good fortune was that no harm came of it. Many a Paladin must learn from mistakes, I know that I have learning to do, but the mistake must be admitted to learn from it. Part of that means no dressing up the mistake as anything different.
Stormbrand 06-12-07, 03:10 AM	If a Blackguard returns to the path of light, what happens. (OOC:what happens mechanics wise as well? I see no clause on Ex-Blackguards) I realize that to return to the light is a rarer occurrence then to fall from it, but there have been instances of it (OOC:Points to Starwars, epically the RotJ with it's ending) I suspect that there would be no standard process. For a blackguard to seek redemption would be a truly momentous occasion, and the redemption would be unique to each blackguard. What is this Star Wars you speak of?
Stormbrand 06-12-07, 03:20 AM	My thanks to Lylessa, as you have reminded me of something. What I fear may be a mistake on my part. When I first came to the land in which I now reside, I was the guest of distant relatives, mainly to keep me out the way during political exile. One of these relatives was a lady that I was to court for awhile, but that relationship fell apart as she grew to fear my planar nature and the workings of angels in my life. All magic was a thing she feared. Anyway. She had a brother. Who was outright evil. Dreadfully evil. Enough so that he eventually became a blackguard. It was only then that I slew him. Staying my sword for as long as it did was the knowledge that although the wretch deserved the pain of death, his sister did not deserve the pain of loss. Yet had I killed this villain sooner there would be harm undone. Have I failed my duty? Did I put the feelings of my lady above the cause of good? Lylessa, I would welcome your views also.
DX2052 06-12-07, 03:26 AM	What is this Star Wars you speak of? Note the OOC (out of character) before it :(
Stormbrand 06-12-07, 03:29 AM	Note the OOC (out of character) before it :( :embarrass
DX2052 06-12-07, 03:43 AM	How do Paladin's feel about canaling negative energy into a weapon of good/the light?
BoringInfoGuy 06-12-07, 11:59 AM	If a Blackguard returns to the path of light, what happens. (OOC:what happens mechanics wise as well? I see no clause on Ex-Blackguards) I realize that to return to the light is a rarer occurrence then to fall from it, but there have been instances of it (OOC:Points to Starwars, epically the RotJ with it's ending) (OOC: A former paladin who turned blackguard and returns to the light would regain the powers of any paladin levels he has remaining. But since he took levels in a class other than paladin, (blackguard, and possibly rogue to qualify for the prereq skill ranks), he can no longer gain new paladin levels. A former paladin turned blackguard will always have at least one paladin level, since only 11th level and higher paladins have the ability to turn paladin levels into blackguard levels, and BG is a 10 level class. On a side note, a Blackguard who was never a paladin in the first place could turn to the light, and start taking paladin levels. But his BG levels would remain, as dead levels.)
Zandolit 06-12-07, 08:06 PM	Lylessa, I would welcome your views also. *The Duskling considers this for a moment, pleased to be included in the discussion with the more learned.* Have I failed my duty? Did I put the feelings of my lady above the cause of good? It's easy to look back on the past and see things we should have done, things that we can now see as "our duty." We don't have the benefit of that insight at the time, though. Sparing those we love pain is also a form of good. Your actions were not meant to be selfish; they were meant for her. Was that a greater or lesser good? Who can know. There was a chance that with the time you gave him, her brother could have been redeemed. If you had slain him earlier, he never would have had the choice to accept forgiveness or to reject it as he did... and I think maybe you would have felt bad about that too. If there was a possibility you could have spared them both, but you didn't try because you were afraid of failing and so never gave him the chance to atone, wouldn't we probably be having the same discussion about duty? There's rarely a perfect answer to such questions at the time. It's only clear looking back, after we've seen the results of our choices. I know what guilt feels like. *She pauses for a moment, then points to the scar from a deep burn along her collar bone.* I did that to myself. I did it because I felt guilty. I wasn't always strong. This is a mark from a time of weakness, of despair. Several of my friends had died, and I hadn't been able to save them. I felt I had failed in my duty. Believe me, I know how heart-wrenching that feeling is. But I've learned that it's best to do the most good you can at the time, and then keep trying to do the right thing even if it doesn't turn out as you hoped, rather than second-guessing a past you can't change. I hope you understand why I told you about the scar. The other paladin didn't understand at the time I did it. He thought it was a proper atonement, that it was the right thing to do. It wasn't, though. It was weakness, trying to mask the pain with different pain. I hope you understand that better than he did. I wanted to tell you about it, though, so you'd know my words aren't just platitudes to make you feel better. I think they're true, because they're what I've learned. I don't think you deserve to carry a burden of guilt because of what happened. It's good to recognize things we might have done differently, but once that learning is done, it's alright to move on. Don't do what I did. Don't make yourself suffer. You have not failed in your duty. I know that because you're still fighting, and still upholding the cause of good. There will always be things you could have done differently. The only true failure, the only forever-failure, is giving up. As for the lady, my sympathies. It's a shame that she wasn't able to accept you for who you are. Those of us who are different often struggle to be understood. It took me a long, long time to find people who were truly able to love and understand me. The first man I ever loved decided he couldn't accept me either, and for years my Duskling family turned their backs on me too. I was all alone for so long. At the time it was devastating, but it really was for the best, because if it hadn't happened I would never have found my human sister or my husband (who is also human, as I mentioned,) and I wouldn't have my child. Those people mean the world to me, and are worth any pain I suffered along the way. It sounds like you've found people to care about, people to be your family, and I think maybe one day you'll find love again too, with someone who understands who you are. If I did, anyone can. -Lylessa Uluki (OOC: This is fun. I miss playing this character...)
Stormbrand 06-12-07, 09:16 PM	*The Duskling considers this for a moment, pleased to be included in the discussion with the more learned.* It's easy to look back on the past and see things we should have done, things that we can now see as "our duty." We don't have the benefit of that insight at the time, though. Sparing those we love pain is also a form of good. Your actions were not meant to be selfish; they were meant for her. Was that a greater or lesser good? Who can know. There was a chance that with the time you gave him, her brother could have been redeemed. If you had slain him earlier, he never would have had the choice to accept forgiveness or to reject it as he did... and I think maybe you would have felt bad about that too. If there was a possibility you could have spared them both, but you didn't try because you were afraid of failing and so never gave him the chance to atone, wouldn't we probably be having the same discussion about duty? There's rarely a perfect answer to such questions at the time. It's only clear looking back, after we've seen the results of our choices. I know what guilt feels like. *She pauses for a moment, then points to the scar from a deep burn along her collar bone.* I did that to myself. I did it because I felt guilty. I wasn't always strong. This is a mark from a time of weakness, of despair. Several of my friends had died, and I hadn't been able to save them. I felt I had failed in my duty. Believe me, I know how heart-wrenching that feeling is. But I've learned that it's best to do the most good you can at the time, and then keep trying to do the right thing even if it doesn't turn out as you hoped, rather than second-guessing a past you can't change. I hope you understand why I told you about the scar. The other paladin didn't understand at the time I did it. He thought it was a proper atonement, that it was the right thing to do. It wasn't, though. It was weakness, trying to mask the pain with different pain. I hope you understand that better than he did. I wanted to tell you about it, though, so you'd know my words aren't just platitudes to make you feel better. I think they're true, because they're what I've learned. I don't think you deserve to carry a burden of guilt because of what happened. It's good to recognize things we might have done differently, but once that learning is done, it's alright to move on. Don't do what I did. Don't make yourself suffer. You have not failed in your duty. I know that because you're still fighting, and still upholding the cause of good. There will always be things you could have done differently. The only true failure, the only forever-failure, is giving up. As for the lady, my sympathies. It's a shame that she wasn't able to accept you for who you are. Those of us who are different often struggle to be understood. It took me a long, long time to find people who were truly able to love and understand me. The first man I ever loved decided he couldn't accept me either, and for years my Duskling family turned their backs on me too. I was all alone for so long. At the time it was devastating, but it really was for the best, because if it hadn't happened I would never have found my human sister or my husband (who is also human, as I mentioned,) and I wouldn't have my child. Those people mean the world to me, and are worth any pain I suffered along the way. It sounds like you've found people to care about, people to be your family, and I think maybe one day you'll find love again too, with someone who understands who you are. If I did, anyone can. -Lylessa Uluki (OOC: This is fun. I miss playing this character...) *Listens intently, until seeing the scar, at which point he gasps and clasps the Duskling's pointing hand in both his own, gently squeezing to reassure. Forgets his own issue on discovering this.* My word. Promise me, Lylessa, that you will never do something like that to yourself again. *Makes full eye-contact at this point.* Clearly anything I say on that you will know already. Just know not to judge yourself harshly. You must have felt that you deserved it, though you did not. One thing I have learned is that true atonement is a selfless act, one which self-punishment does nothing towards. *Another impulsive hug, then steps back, releasing her hand as well.* Let me say, that although it is not your intent, I like this other paladin less the more I learn of him. That smacks of cruelty on his part. Vengeance alone does not bring justice. And neither did your pain. I am so sorry. "Yet another impulsive hug. Done now. :cool: (OOC: yes, the guy really is that caring)* Thank you for your advice, and for your wisdom. I know not to make myself suffer. When I choose to suffer, I do it to spare others that pain. I can see no other who would be spared. I am grateful for your support. Merely, I keep thinking of the people who suffered because of that villain, and that they had as much right to be spared pain as his sister. Was not their chance for mercy more important than his chance for redemption? Events with the lady were probably for the best. I suspect that she would downright miserable married to a paladin. She wanted all of me, which could never happen due to my devotion to the Heavens. One of my best warriors is a warspawned great orc, a battle-slave and war machine initially created by a wicked dragon to serve as a weapon of flesh in his armies, and found his way into my service once the dragon was destroyed (alas, not by me). The lady could not accept my orcish huscarl as anything but a 'monster' despite his compassion and heroism. She was an urban noble, familiar with finery and splendour, and would not do well in the life that I lead. (OOC: me too, great fun.)
Zandolit 06-12-07, 11:03 PM	Promise me, Lylessa, that you will never do something like that to yourself again. *Makes full eye-contact at this point.* I promise. *She smiles, and there is no pain in her eyes.* You aren't the first person to make me promise that. The Tiefling was one of the first to find out about it, and she made it clear she was never going to let me out of her sight from that time on if I didn't give her my word I'd never do it again. I've also promised it to my human sister, and though my now-husband didn't know about it till much later... we weren't even friends at the time, let alone together... when he found out he also made me promise. I wouldn't hurt them like that, not after giving my word. It was years ago. I was much different then. I used to be scared. I used to be weak. Then I realized that I could be strong by helping others. I learned that there are better things than despair. I've realized that the best atonement is to learn and avoid making the same mistake in the future. Please don't worry about me. I'm alright now. I'm not alone. I'm whole. I'm happy. My soul has healed. I'm glad you aren't making the same mistakes that I did. I'm glad you're wiser than I was. Learning the hard way surely teaches you... but it's better to learn another way. By the way, you are greatly improving my outlook on paladins. Thank you. Merely, I keep thinking of the people who suffered because of that villain, and that they had as much right to be spared pain as his sister. Was not their chance for mercy more important than his chance for redemption? You did not cause their suffering. This villain did. The blame for this is squarely on his shoulders. If you had to do it over again, perhaps you would do something different. Perhaps you would have been able to prevent their pain. But you weren't the cause of it. Don't take the sins of another as your own. I know I can't talk you out of your concerns, but I'm sure your fellow paladins will have words of wisdom to help you. I don't know the answers. I wish I did. I will say one more thing, though. I've come to believe everything happens for a reason. That's not to say we're slaves to fate. I would never suggest being passive, or accepting evil and suffering as destiny. I do think, though, that sometimes good can come even from our missteps and shortcomings. Events with the lady were probably for the best. I suspect that she would downright miserable married to a paladin. She wanted all of me, which could never happen due to my devotion to the Heavens. One of my best warriors is a warspawned great orc, a battle-slave and war machine initially created by a wicked dragon to serve as a weapon of flesh in his armies, and found his way into my service once the dragon was destroyed (alas, not by me). The lady could not accept my orcish huscarl as anything but a 'monster' despite his compassion and heroism. She was an urban noble, familiar with finery and splendour, and would not do well in the life that I lead. Oh my. It does sound as if it's for the best that you parted ways. I don't think you would have had a very joyful life together. I'm lucky on both those fronts. My husband knows I love him deeply and that I am extremely devoted to him, but he also understands that I have responsibilities outside of home and family-- as does he. I really think both partners need to agree on that. The fighter and the healer make a good team, and we often work together. Besides that, he is not only tolerant of but actually likes my odd assortment of friends. (Well, he's a human married to one of Fey and the father of a half-Fey child, so I'm sure it's clear he's pretty open-minded about these things.) I suppose it must be harder as a paladin, since you have religious and spiritual duties as well as practical ones. (If this seems a strange comment coming from one who wears a holy symbol, my patron is an element--Fire-- which requires relatively little in terms of religious observance.) I would imagine for paladins it would be at times isolating and at other times lead to a great bond with other people. -Lylessa Uluki
Maekrix_Waere 06-13-07, 12:30 AM	Wow, I leave for a week and this thread goes all Lawful Stupid (:P) ...at least in some respects. Just like to say: A Blackguard IS a Paladin, but a Paladin of Evil, instead of Good. I seriously don't get why people don't just call them Anti-Paladins...it perfectly explains the entire role of that class. Also: Poisitoxins and Ravages are EXACTLY the same as poisons when it comes to being honourable. They may be "Holy," but, when it comes to honour, they're the same. It doesn't matter if they harm innocents or not. If I was DMing a Paladin who used either, I would give him 1, ONE, warning to stop using them before he loses his powers for violating the "Honourable" part of the Paladin's code. However, that's just me. Also: The one of you who says poisons are Evil, give me all the reasons you have for that opinion.
Zandolit 06-13-07, 03:29 PM	Wow, I leave for a week and this thread goes all Lawful Stupid (:P) ...at least in some respects. Well then, thank all that is pure and holy you've returned to save us from ourselves. ;)
Stormbrand 06-13-07, 05:25 PM	Wow, I leave for a week and this thread goes all Lawful Stupid (:P) ...at least in some respects. Just like to say: A Blackguard IS a Paladin, but a Paladin of Evil, instead of Good. I seriously don't get why people don't just call them Anti-Paladins...it perfectly explains the entire role of that class. Also: Poisitoxins and Ravages are EXACTLY the same as poisons when it comes to being honourable. They may be "Holy," but, when it comes to honour, they're the same. It doesn't matter if they harm innocents or not. If I was DMing a Paladin who used either, I would give him 1, ONE, warning to stop using them before he loses his powers for violating the "Honourable" part of the Paladin's code. However, that's just me. Also: The one of you who says poisons are Evil, give me all the reasons you have for that opinion. On the subject of Lawful Stupid ;) On what grounds do you judge positoxins and ravages to be exactly the same as poisons? Give reasons for your judgement, dear sir. Know that the nature of we paladins does not force us to be as Don Quixote who jousted with windmills (the only reason I did was related to Animate Object by an evil cleric...). Our sense of honour is a high moral standard, not a set of arbitrary rules without purpose. (OOC: As for Blackguard, the name is so that the concept can exist in it's own right - be more than merely the opposite of a Paladin).
Evil DM Mk3 06-13-07, 05:36 PM	OK, things have just become very confused for me and I need advice. ANY advice I can get. I recived a poem in elvish from an elven painter I know slightly. I treated her with all the curtosy and honour of a man in my station but did not think of affairs of the heart due to the reasons previously noted. The poem is below, although it has suffered in translation. Come back to me my stormy night The one who has the soul of storms. Return to me on your mare so bold Return my heart and make me whole It goes on but, ah ha, get a little, um descriptive and personal. In short I seem to have had a significant effect on this woman. In fact she says that she loves me, she says so, let me see, eighteen times in as many stanzas. On reflection however I realized that my feelings where mutual. I had been avoiding it but I do indeed feel for her as she does for me. Dare I, with my past, even contemplate embracing this?
Maekrix_Waere 06-13-07, 11:50 PM	On the subject of Lawful Stupid ;) On what grounds do you judge positoxins and ravages to be exactly the same as poisons? Give reasons for your judgement, dear sir. I never said they were exactly the same as Poisons. I said they were exactly the same as Poisons WHEN IT COMES TO THE CONCEPT OF HONOUR. *nod* *nod* I would say so because they have the exact same effects as Poisons, even if they only do so to Evil/Undead, and, since the Paladin's Code Specifically ban poisons as dishonourable because of their effects, it would be reasonable to suspect that it would also ban Poisitoxins/Ravages due to the fact that they have the EXACT SAME EFFECTS. Once again, that is only how I rule it. After all, you're a Paladin, you already have a special move that allows you to inflict greater damage to those of Evil intent...Smite Evil. I would also like to add that Poisitoxins CAN be used for Evil purposes. If a Blackguard uses a Poisitoxin against a Good-Aligned Lich (it's in the Libris Mortis, Liches CAN be Good-Aligned), is it not JUST as Evil as the same Blackguard using Purple Worm Venom against a Paladin? Actually, it's worse, as the Paladin would have a phenominally higher save against the Poison than the Lich would (probably) have against the Poisitoxin.
Hydryh 06-14-07, 01:26 AM	...Dare I, with my past, even contemplate embracing this? Yes, on two conditions. If you are certain that you truly love her, and If you make it very clear to her the sort of dangers that would be involved in loving you, and both of you are willing to risk those dangers. I set these requirements upon myself before I proposed to my lovely Jessica. The first was child's play, naturally, but the second was hard. She was the daughter of a minor lord, and so has a bit of training with weapons and armor, but I would never pit her against an adult red dragon. I went to her father's manor and, in front of her family, spelled out to Jessica exactly how dangerous my life was. I did not hear from her for a month and a half, but when I did, it was because her father had invited me to be her escort to the Yule Ball in Chiran. That night I learned that her family had discussed the matter in great depth, and her love for me had won out over any concerns for her safety. With my two self-imposed requirements met, I proposed that same night. We were married the following summer, and I know that I have never made a wiser choice. So again, friend, be certain that you both enter into love with your eyes open. Do that, and you will have my blessing. Count Ian Boydson Imperial Highway Mayrici 893 A.E.
Stormbrand 06-14-07, 03:45 AM	I never said they were exactly the same as Poisons. I said they were exactly the same as Poisons WHEN IT COMES TO THE CONCEPT OF HONOUR. *nod* *nod* I would say so because they have the exact same effects as Poisons, even if they only do so to Evil/Undead, and, since the Paladin's Code Specifically ban poisons as dishonourable because of their effects, it would be reasonable to suspect that it would also ban Poisitoxins/Ravages due to the fact that they have the EXACT SAME EFFECTS. It would indeed be reasonable. Were the founding premise true. No source to my knowledge claims that poisons are dishonourable because of their effects. My belief is that poison favours treacherous use, and are thus dishonourable. Positoxins and ravages do no such thing.
maharai23 06-14-07, 03:49 AM	Not so, if level 1 of blackguard is level 21, then he could take 11 levels of blackguard straight, trade 'em all in.
maharai23 06-14-07, 03:53 AM	On the subject of Lawful Stupid ;) On what grounds do you judge positoxins and ravages to be exactly the same as poisons? Give reasons for your judgement, dear sir. Know that the nature of we paladins does not force us to be as Don Quixote who jousted with windmills (the only reason I did was related to Animate Object by an evil cleric...). Our sense of honour is a high moral standard, not a set of arbitrary rules without purpose. (OOC: As for Blackguard, the name is so that the concept can exist in it's own right - be more than merely the opposite of a Paladin). By the Book of exalted deeds, poisons which cause ability damage are evil because they cause undue suffering in incapacitating or killing an opponent. It then goes on to describe ravages (magical afflictions which cause ability damage) as things which WRACK the body of evil, essentially tormenting them. This sounds like "undue" or "unnecessary" suffering in vanquishing evil. By the very reason that poison is evil, ravages fit every single criteria given. I ask you, how are they NOT evil? I have a new idea, how about we make something called "sacred questioning", as a counterpart to torture? It will involve putting evil creatures in intense amounts of physical pain in order to extract information from them, whilst intimidating them and keeping them alive. Let's slap a few sacred bonuses in there, and we'll call it good, never minding the fact that it's essentially the exact SAME THING. Part of the reason good is good is that it doesn't stoop to suffering like evil does. Buying into ravages is a devil's bargain. You begin condoning the suffering of some, and where does it stop? Where do beings get the inherent rights offered to all humanity, and when to we agree that they can and should suffer?
Stormbrand 06-14-07, 07:17 AM	By the Book of exalted deeds, poisons which cause ability damage are evil because they cause undue suffering in incapacitating or killing an opponent. It then goes on to describe ravages (magical afflictions which cause ability damage) as things which WRACK the body of evil, essentially tormenting them. This sounds like "undue" or "unnecessary" suffering in vanquishing evil. By the very reason that poison is evil, ravages fit every single criteria given. I ask you, how are they NOT evil? I have a new idea, how about we make something called "sacred questioning", as a counterpart to torture? It will involve putting evil creatures in intense amounts of physical pain in order to extract information from them, whilst intimidating them and keeping them alive. Let's slap a few sacred bonuses in there, and we'll call it good, never minding the fact that it's essentially the exact SAME THING. Part of the reason good is good is that it doesn't stoop to suffering like evil does. Buying into ravages is a devil's bargain. You begin condoning the suffering of some, and where does it stop? Where do beings get the inherent rights offered to all humanity, and when to we agree that they can and should suffer? OOC: Why are you quoting me? Maekrix raised the point you are addressing. This is happening alot lately - people quoting me then answering someone else. You also underline the fundamental flaw in BoED - giving Good special tools to put them on 'even-ground' when fighting Evil, instead of building up Good independantly. So 'sacred questioning' would be EXACTLY in line with BoED. My only possible argument in defence of ravages (which I don't fully support) is that the 'victim' is effectively doing it to themselves by their evil alignment - they suffer as much for being a murderer/rapist/thug/mugger/abuser as much as for the ravage.
Stormbrand 06-14-07, 09:19 AM	I promise. *She smiles, and there is no pain in her eyes.* You aren't the first person to make me promise that. The Tiefling was one of the first to find out about it, and she made it clear she was never going to let me out of her sight from that time on if I didn't give her my word I'd never do it again. I've also promised it to my human sister, and though my now-husband didn't know about it till much later... we weren't even friends at the time, let alone together... when he found out he also made me promise. I wouldn't hurt them like that, not after giving my word. It was years ago. I was much different then. I used to be scared. I used to be weak. Then I realized that I could be strong by helping others. I learned that there are better things than despair. I've realized that the best atonement is to learn and avoid making the same mistake in the future. Please don't worry about me. I'm alright now. I'm not alone. I'm whole. I'm happy. My soul has healed. I'm glad you aren't making the same mistakes that I did. I'm glad you're wiser than I was. Learning the hard way surely teaches you... but it's better to learn another way. By the way, you are greatly improving my outlook on paladins. Thank you. This is all good news. Let your tiefling friend know that I salute her. I know first-hand the lure that comes with planar blood, and it takes true strength and honour for one afflicted with the blood of darkness to hold such compassion and loyalty. More, I am glad that you have so many friends at your side, and good friends at that. They are clearly well-deserved. You did not cause their suffering. This villain did. The blame for this is squarely on his shoulders. If you had to do it over again, perhaps you would do something different. Perhaps you would have been able to prevent their pain. But you weren't the cause of it. Don't take the sins of another as your own. I know I can't talk you out of your concerns, but I'm sure your fellow paladins will have words of wisdom to help you. I don't know the answers. I wish I did. I will say one more thing, though. I've come to believe everything happens for a reason. That's not to say we're slaves to fate. I would never suggest being passive, or accepting evil and suffering as destiny. I do think, though, that sometimes good can come even from our missteps and shortcomings. Actually, you have answered my concerns quite well, and in a way that has brought me great pace. Perhaps in viewing evil as a thing to be opposed, I forget the responsibility of the one who made that choice? Once again, you are right. There is good I have done during that time which would not have been possible had I slain the villain immediately. Although the cost of any life but my own could never be a fair trade. I suppose it must be harder as a paladin, since you have religious and spiritual duties as well as practical ones. (If this seems a strange comment coming from one who wears a holy symbol, my patron is an element--Fire-- which requires relatively little in terms of religious observance.) I would imagine for paladins it would be at times isolating and at other times lead to a great bond with other people. -Lylessa Uluki Your description is apt. It is isolating for personal relationships, as whatever my heart a loved one can never come before the weak and innocent, and any partner would have to accept that. Yet my armsmen, my huscarl, my yeomen serjeant, are all the most worthy of men who I feel honoured to fight alongside.
Evil DM Mk3 06-14-07, 02:43 PM	Yes, on two conditions. If you are certain that you truly love her, and If you make it very clear to her the sort of dangers that would be involved in loving you, and both of you are willing to risk those dangers. I do. I am sure that she would be willing to risk those dangers but, having read those dangers, do you think that I should risk them, I fear my judgment may be clouded.
darkneolink 06-14-07, 03:01 PM	The life of a paladin is not dangerous only for him... or herself but for those who they love. In the end I can't make the decision for you... It's something that its totally up to you and your beloved ones. But the sad true is that the only fact that you love her is enough to make evil attempt to harm her to get to you... The way of the paladin is hard... but you don't have to walk it alone... you'll find that sometimes love can make you keep going on your crussade... and you could always help train and improve her combat skills so she can protect herself In the end is up to you 2... and I believe that you will pick the best option n_n
Eridrau 06-14-07, 04:42 PM	*A Scholarly figure in a leather jacket calmly approaches the paladin group among their ethos discussions. His dark, feathered wings are folded carefully behind him, so as to not interfere with his movement. Though dripping in raw sensuality, his eyes are soft coloured, and hold a certain gentleness. Though his mouth does not open to speak, his smoky voice faintly rings in the back of the 'listeners' minds.* Greetings good sirs, I approach you with a fairly simple question, though with some trepidation. You see, I am an Incubus by birth, though I have embraced the pure teachings of love and sensuality over raw sexual desire and corruption. Though I am capable of temptation, and occasionally use it as a weapon against evil, I am more concerned with bringing joy and pleasure to the world. (True Neutral, with evil and chaotic subtypes.) Though I have done minor evils before, I have long since sought, and found, atonement for my actions. Recently in the midst of a battle, I saved the life of a Slayer of Domiel, having kept her from tumbling down a tower to her death. After which, I was given orders to withdraw. I did so, but later found out that she had raced back up to the top and nearly died taking on the guards there. Though I apologized, and insured she was alright, we left her to recuperate fully among allies as we approached our next goal. Capturing another strategic point, we needed to close a gate, a two person job. One of my comrades fell, while the others were occupied, distracting our foes. As his stealthy nature would allow both of us to creep to the mechanism, seal it, and jam it shut, I revived him to assist me in this. Suddenly, the Slayer appeared behind me from her invisible hiding place and stabbed me, very nearly ending my life. Was she truly justified in this? Having jeopardized our mission, attacking a superior, and ignoring orders? Does it not seem that she would have fallen out of favor of her divine patron? *Calmly pulls up a seat and spins it around, sitting on the cahir and leaning over the back of it, awaiting a reply in earnest.*
Magon 06-14-07, 04:49 PM	*a psion enters the scene* sir ian, have you heard of the so called psionics?
maharai23 06-14-07, 04:53 PM	OOC: Why are you quoting me? Maekrix raised the point you are addressing. This is happening alot lately - people quoting me then answering someone else. OOC - Your second sentence: On what grounds do you judge positoxins and ravages to be exactly the same as poisons? I was giving grounds. Thus, I was replying to YOU, not to someone else.
maharai23 06-14-07, 05:01 PM	OOC: Why are you quoting me? Maekrix raised the point you are addressing. This is happening alot lately - people quoting me then answering someone else. You also underline the fundamental flaw in BoED - giving Good special tools to put them on 'even-ground' when fighting Evil, instead of building up Good independantly. So 'sacred questioning' would be EXACTLY in line with BoED. My only possible argument in defence of ravages (which I don't fully support) is that the 'victim' is effectively doing it to themselves by their evil alignment - they suffer as much for being a murderer/rapist/thug/mugger/abuser as much as for the ravage. There's a difference between feeling guilty for a wrong committed, and directly introducing a magical substance that preys on emotions and internal corruptions. Make no mistake, the evil isn't causing the ability damage. The ravage is transmuting a state of mind into a bodily poison. There's no defense. BoED specifically says that the ravage reacts with evil and corrupts a body, wracking it with pain. Using the "wouldn't happen if they weren't evil" arguement is a lot like "the peasants wouldn't have died to the fireball if they stayed inside". Regardless, the "good" creature is consciously introducing a substance into a creature which he knows will make them suffer unnecessarily. How's it not evil? Anyone? Please, I'd like to know if anyone can provide any arguement that holds water for the redeeming qualities of ravages. Heck, even the name "ravage" is destructive... rav·age –verb (used with object) 1. to work havoc upon; damage or mar by ravages: a face ravaged by grief. –verb (used without object) 2. to work havoc; do ruinous damage. –noun 3. havoc; ruinous damage: the ravages of war. 4. devastating or destructive action. Havoc? ruinous damage? devastation? Is that what you want people to think when they think "paladin"? A term originally used to describe an army that salts the ground and forever destroys the land?
Stormbrand 06-14-07, 05:35 PM	OOC - Your second sentence: On what grounds do you judge positoxins and ravages to be exactly the same as poisons? I was giving grounds. Thus, I was replying to YOU, not to someone else. Oh. :embarrass Very well. There's a difference between feeling guilty for a wrong committed, and directly introducing a magical substance that preys on emotions and internal corruptions. Make no mistake, the evil isn't causing the ability damage. The ravage is transmuting a state of mind into a bodily poison. There's no defense. BoED specifically says that the ravage reacts with evil and corrupts a body, wracking it with pain. Using the "wouldn't happen if they weren't evil" arguement is a lot like "the peasants wouldn't have died to the fireball if they stayed inside". Regardless, the "good" creature is consciously introducing a substance into a creature which he knows will make them suffer unnecessarily. How's it not evil? Anyone? Please, I'd like to know if anyone can provide any arguement that holds water for the redeeming qualities of ravages. Heck, even the name "ravage" is destructive... Havoc? ruinous damage? devastation? Is that what you want people to think when they think "paladin"? A term originally used to describe an army that salts the ground and forever destroys the land? OOC again: Bluntly, it is not evil because the BoED says not - and the BoED is the same source which says poison is evil on the grounds of needless suffering. Either the source is valid or it is not. The BoED is inherently an self-contradictory source, however, the validity of a source can not reasonably depend upon personal preference to each bit of info within. My understanding is that the ravages are meant to represent things like the 7 Biblical Plagues. Hence the sense of needless havoc and carnage. Actually, 'wouldn't happen if they weren't evil' is nothing like your analagy with the peasants and fireball. The description of evil as a 'state of mind' assumes (accidently assumes, but still assumes) that villains have the right to commit murder/torture/rape. In effect, is forgetting that evil alignments are earned. So there is a case of 'just punishment,' although in my opinion that is as much lawful as good. Now I want to get back IC responses, so now I am going to leave this issue be - that is the reasoning, but I simply do not accept the BoED.
maharai23 06-14-07, 06:01 PM	Oh. :embarrass Very well. OOC again: Bluntly, it is not evil because the BoED says not - and the BoED is the same source which says poison is evil on the grounds of needless suffering. Either the source is valid or it is not. The BoED is inherently an self-contradictory source, however, the validity of a source can not reasonably depend upon personal preference to each bit of info within. My understanding is that the ravages are meant to represent things like the 7 Biblical Plagues. Hence the sense of needless havoc and carnage. Actually, 'wouldn't happen if they weren't evil' is nothing like your analagy with the peasants and fireball. The description of evil as a 'state of mind' assumes (accidently assumes, but still assumes) that villains have the right to commit murder/torture/rape. In effect, is forgetting that evil alignments are earned. So there is a case of 'just punishment,' although in my opinion that is as much lawful as good. Now I want to get back IC responses, so now I am going to leave this issue be - that is the reasoning, but I simply do not accept the BoED. Is the suffering needed? No? Then it's needless suffering. BoED contradicts itself on ravages and poisons, thus, it's invalid when it comes to those. In any game I run, using ravages is an evil act, and will affect the user accordingly. I'm not arguing a right to be evil. I'm arguing that regardless of why it works, or how it works, WHAT it does trumps. It causes needless suffering, by its very description in book of ED. The book of ED condemns poisons on those very grounds. Thus, by the same standard that good judges, I judge good. And by that standard.... Ravages are not good.
darkneolink 06-14-07, 06:11 PM	I don't know if Ravages are good or evil... that's up for every one to make their own decision I wouldn't use it... because it gives unnecessary pain AND it's not honorable... I don't mean that you've got to follow honor stupidly but you've got to try and live with honor and show the people around you how honorable you can be by acting with honor... I hope I was clear... HONOR!
BoringInfoGuy 06-14-07, 06:38 PM	Not so, if level 1 of blackguard is level 21, then he could take 11 levels of blackguard straight, trade 'em all in. Blackguard is only a 10 level class. You can't trade in more than 10 paladin levels, and you can only make the trade if you are a paladin of level 11 or higher. Never bother arguing with me unless you take the time to read the material first. Otherwise you're wasting my time and yours.
Mathurian 06-14-07, 08:20 PM	*A tall, sturdily built knight in bright platinum armor walks up and says in a lilting baritone* Hail Brothers, my name is Mathurian Kerbouchard (OOC: one bonus point if you know the orgins of that name, no cheating and looking it up), and while it is rare indeed to see such a number of the called gathered in one place, it lifts my heart to hear that we are pondering these weighty matters in order to better serve those in need. While I make no claim to notoriety or greatness, I have been graced with a full score years as a paladin, and I felt I should add my voice to those of my illustrious brethren. First to address what I see as the simplest (though not easiest) question: it is never right to do evil. It does not matter that good may result (i.e. kill a baby, save a town), a true paladin will never commit an act of evil. I believe (OOC: and I'll paraphrase/quote page 9 of the BoED, a part that I agree with) that while some good men may see commiting an evil act as a necessary sacrifice, or indeed see losing their paladinhood as a a necessary sacrifice, they are missing the big picture. When a paladin commits an evil act, the effects are larger than the immediate circumstance. If I were to stoop to evil, even towards a good end, I would be invalidating the concept of true good. In addition, I would be shifting the balance of good and evil in this world. As a paladin, I must remain true to my beliefs in the face of a cruel world; my refusal to EVER commit or condone evil acts is the very substance of my paladinhood. Next on the topic of honor vs. glory; I agree with my brother Stormbrand that too many young initiates seek glory in the name of honor and the two are often confused. Honor is all about adhering to your code: not every paladin will have the exact same code, though there should be similarities (OOC: Quintessential Paladin pp. 92-97, Quintessential Paladin 2 pp.88-101). Personally, I believe that honor is about personality, not tactics. My honor is in keeping my word, doing what is right, obeying legitimate authority, and opposing evil wherever I find it. Personally, I have no problems with using poison, killing from ambush, or killing someone in their sleep. As a knight I find such actions somewhat distasteful and typically avoid, but I don't believe that such methods are inherantly immoral and I have used them on occasion when I thought it appropriate. At any rate I've already enjoyed the conversation immensely and I look forward to hearing your responses to my thoughts. *The knight bows deeply and steps back, his eyes glinting excitedly at the chance to discuss morality with the paragons of virtue he sees around him* Mathurian is a Paladin11/Vassal of Bahmut10, though my group runs prestige classes differently than normal and he is my first and favorite character. I don't have much to add to his words, largely because I want to let him respond on his own. I will say that I have never bought the whole argument that poison is immoral because of the suffering it brings about: I don't agree that poison is underhanded and dishonorable (at least not for my paladin), but I do understand the viewpoint at least.
Mathurian 06-14-07, 08:26 PM	Blackguard is only a 10 level class. You can't trade in more than 10 paladin levels, and you can only make the trade if you are a paladin of level 11 or higher. Never bother arguing with me unless you take the time to read the material first. Otherwise you're wasting my time and yours. Page 19 of the Epic Level Handbook under the Epic Blackguard section, "Fallen Paladins: A blackguard who trades in more than ten levels of paladin can (emphasis added) gain more than ten levels of blackguard, but only if his character level is 21st or higher" Never bother being sarcastic if you haven't read all the applicable rules, otherwise you look like a..., well anyhow.
Stormbrand 06-14-07, 09:55 PM	*A Scholarly figure in a leather jacket calmly approaches the paladin group among their ethos discussions. His dark, feathered wings are folded carefully behind him, so as to not interfere with his movement. Though dripping in raw sensuality, his eyes are soft coloured, and hold a certain gentleness. Though his mouth does not open to speak, his smoky voice faintly rings in the back of the 'listeners' minds.* Greetings good sirs, I approach you with a fairly simple question, though with some trepidation. You see, I am an Incubus by birth, though I have embraced the pure teachings of love and sensuality over raw sexual desire and corruption. Though I am capable of temptation, and occasionally use it as a weapon against evil, I am more concerned with bringing joy and pleasure to the world. (True Neutral, with evil and chaotic subtypes.) Though I have done minor evils before, I have long since sought, and found, atonement for my actions. Recently in the midst of a battle, I saved the life of a Slayer of Domiel, having kept her from tumbling down a tower to her death. After which, I was given orders to withdraw. I did so, but later found out that she had raced back up to the top and nearly died taking on the guards there. Though I apologized, and insured she was alright, we left her to recuperate fully among allies as we approached our next goal. Capturing another strategic point, we needed to close a gate, a two person job. One of my comrades fell, while the others were occupied, distracting our foes. As his stealthy nature would allow both of us to creep to the mechanism, seal it, and jam it shut, I revived him to assist me in this. Suddenly, the Slayer appeared behind me from her invisible hiding place and stabbed me, very nearly ending my life. Was she truly justified in this? Having jeopardized our mission, attacking a superior, and ignoring orders? Does it not seem that she would have fallen out of favor of her divine patron? *Calmly pulls up a seat and spins it around, sitting on the cahir and leaning over the back of it, awaiting a reply in earnest.* Well, at least something is not as it appears. First of all, your claims to be an incubus by birth, as we know that incubi are not born. May I ask how you acquired your free will? Normally, free will to a demon is the choice of whether to torture someone with fire or instead use spiky things. Some event must have taken place for you to have grown beyond your nature. If indeed you have? Perhaps this was not truly a Slayer of Domiel? Or perhaps she had reason to believe you an enemy or betrayer. Little trust is extended to an unholy tempter. Jeapordizing a mission, attacking a 'superior' (if such a term could be appropriate for a fiend), and disobeying orders are all seperate issues from Good and Evil. Foolishness is apart from morality. So the charges you have raised do not count. Perhaps betrayal and treachery, and harm to the undeserving might be better counts. Obviously we do not have the full story, and the demons of deceit are not the best of sources. Now demon. Get. Out. Of. My. Head. *A tall, sturdily built knight in bright platinum armor walks up and says in a lilting baritone* Hail Brothers, my name is Mathurian Kerbouchard (OOC: one bonus point if you know the orgins of that name, no cheating and looking it up), and while it is rare indeed to see such a number of the called gathered in one place, it lifts my heart to hear that we are pondering these weighty matters in order to better serve those in need. While I make no claim to notoriety or greatness, I have been graced with a full score years as a paladin, and I felt I should add my voice to those of my illustrious brethren. First to address what I see as the simplest (though not easiest) question: it is never right to do evil. It does not matter that good may result (i.e. kill a baby, save a town), a true paladin will never commit an act of evil. I believe (OOC: and I'll paraphrase/quote page 9 of the BoED, a part that I agree with) that while some good men may see commiting an evil act as a necessary sacrifice, or indeed see losing their paladinhood as a a necessary sacrifice, they are missing the big picture. When a paladin commits an evil act, the effects are larger than the immediate circumstance. If I were to stoop to evil, even towards a good end, I would be invalidating the concept of true good. In addition, I would be shifting the balance of good and evil in this world. As a paladin, I must remain true to my beliefs in the face of a cruel world; my refusal to EVER commit or condone evil acts is the very substance of my paladinhood. Next on the topic of honor vs. glory; I agree with my brother Stormbrand that too many young initiates seek glory in the name of honor and the two are often confused. Honor is all about adhering to your code: not every paladin will have the exact same code, though there should be similarities (OOC: Quintessential Paladin pp. 92-97, Quintessential Paladin 2 pp.88-101). Personally, I believe that honor is about personality, not tactics. My honor is in keeping my word, doing what is right, obeying legitimate authority, and opposing evil wherever I find it. Personally, I have no problems with using poison, killing from ambush, or killing someone in their sleep. As a knight I find such actions somewhat distasteful and typically avoid, but I don't believe that such methods are inherantly immoral and I have used them on occasion when I thought it appropriate. At any rate I've already enjoyed the conversation immensely and I look forward to hearing your responses to my thoughts. *The knight bows deeply and steps back, his eyes glinting excitedly at the chance to discuss morality with the paragons of virtue he sees around him* Mathurian is a Paladin11/Vassal of Bahmut10, though my group runs prestige classes differently than normal and he is my first and favorite character. I don't have much to add to his words, largely because I want to let him respond on his own. I will say that I have never bought the whole argument that poison is immoral because of the suffering it brings about: I don't agree that poison is underhanded and dishonorable (at least not for my paladin), but I do understand the viewpoint at least. (OOC: my paladin is named Aorle) Indeed, evil acts undermine our foundation of goodness and right. If an act is evil, then the act is not our right to commit. We fight to protect those who need us, and so they should never need to be protected from us. The 'sacrifice' in question is not ours to make. As for tactics, the methods outlined are not inherently immoral, they are simply better suited for immoral ends. Many of the opportunities to make effective use of poison or ambush are typically achieved through betrayal. Often we err on the side of caution in these matters, and reasonably so.
BoringInfoGuy 06-14-07, 10:05 PM	Page 19 of the Epic Level Handbook under the Epic Blackguard section, "Fallen Paladins: A blackguard who trades in more than ten levels of paladin can (emphasis added) gain more than ten levels of blackguard, but only if his character level is 21st or higher" Never bother being sarcastic if you haven't read all the applicable rules, otherwise you look like a..., well anyhow. First, I'm being arrogant, not sarcastic. There is a difference. Second, I'm going by core rules. It is reasonable to expect everyone on these boards to be familiar with the core rules. It is not reasonable to demand anyone to have read every book that Wizards has published. (How else can you be certain to have read all of the applicable rules?) If you are going by a rule variation from a splat / supplement book, you should have said so in the first place. Third, since you were responding to my earlier post, you should have quoted it. I had to reread all the posts between mine and yours to make certain you were talking to me at all. That left me annoyed. If you know a rule I don't, fine. But quote your source, and who you're referring to next time. Finally, I just read the ELH. Yes, the Epic Blackguard can trade in more than 10 levels. But the epic BG is only a 20 level class. You can only make a trade if you level 21. So, guess what? You still have at least one paladin level if the epic BG returns to paladinhood. Even when I haven't read all the relevant rules, I'm still right.
Comus 06-14-07, 11:14 PM	Suddenly, the Slayer appeared behind me from her invisible hiding place and stabbed me, very nearly ending my life. Was she truly justified in this? I believe you already answered this question when you stated just what you are. You are full of the Taint, your soul is forever corrupted by evil, and any good man would be justified in purging you. No matter how good you try to be, you will always - always be in the grip of the Ruinous Powers. Someday, you will slip and fall to your true nature, and you will find many, many more blades than hers waiting to catch you. Having jeopardized our mission, attacking a superior, and ignoring orders? That she was able to restrain herself from ending your existence the moment she met you speaks worlds about her self-control. Following orders is never an excuse. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Does it not seem that she would have fallen out of favor of her divine patron? Clearly, her divine patron is wiser than you. She was in more danger of losing favor by refraining from that action, and it was probably the urgings of her faith and her conscience that finally allowed her to make the right choice and discard the orders that were dragging her towards perdition's flame. I, however, am not as unwise as she. If you and I should ever meet on the field, know that you have been judged. And by your very nature, you have been found wanting.
Mathurian 06-15-07, 12:15 AM	First, I'm being arrogant, not sarcastic. There is a difference. Even when I haven't read all the relevant rules, I'm still right. Ok, I'll give you that. Second, I'm going by core rules. It is reasonable to expect everyone on these boards to be familiar with the core rules. It is not reasonable to demand anyone to have read every book that Wizards has published. (How else can you be certain to have read all of the applicable rules?) If you are going by a rule variation from a splat / supplement book, you should have said so in the first place. True in general statements, but I would say that if you're going to say someone else is wrong (especially in an arrogant manner), you should be absolutely right by all books. Third, since you were responding to my earlier post, you should have quoted it. I had to reread all the posts between mine and yours to make certain you were talking to me at all. That left me annoyed. Not sure what you're talking about here (it's late and I may simply be missing something), the only part of any of your posts I was deliberately referencing was the one I quoted, it was itself a response to a response, so I see where you might have had to look back, and yes it probably would've been a good idea to quote the whole discussion, but I didn't think of it. If you know a rule I don't, fine. But quote your source, and who you're referring to next time. I did and I'm in full agreement that the first poster should've (I make it a rule to quote any time I cite a rule, but especially if it isn't from a core rulebook). Finally, I just read the ELH. Yes, the Epic Blackguard can trade in more than 10 levels. But the epic BG is only a 20 level class. You can only make a trade if you level 21. So, guess what? You still have at least one paladin level if the epic BG returns to paladinhood. Actually, you're still incorrect about this, page 6 of the Epic Level Handbook says under the section entitled No Limits, "although most of the tables in this book only show information up to a certain level (often 30th), that level is by no means the limit of a character's advancement." It then covers levels beyond (basically just keep same trends going). So it would be entirely possible to convert a level 21 Paladin to a level 21 Blackguard. On a side note, I'm sorry that I was arrogant towards you, it wasn't appropriate and I apologize.
Mathurian 06-15-07, 12:23 AM	*A Scholarly figure in a leather jacket calmly approaches the paladin group among their ethos discussions. His dark, feathered wings are folded carefully behind him, so as to not interfere with his movement. Though dripping in raw sensuality, his eyes are soft coloured, and hold a certain gentleness. Though his mouth does not open to speak, his smoky voice faintly rings in the back of the 'listeners' minds.* Greetings good sirs, I approach you with a fairly simple question, though with some trepidation. You see, I am an Incubus by birth, though I have embraced the pure teachings of love and sensuality over raw sexual desire and corruption. Though I am capable of temptation, and occasionally use it as a weapon against evil, I am more concerned with bringing joy and pleasure to the world. (True Neutral, with evil and chaotic subtypes.) Though I have done minor evils before, I have long since sought, and found, atonement for my actions. Recently in the midst of a battle, I saved the life of a Slayer of Domiel, having kept her from tumbling down a tower to her death. After which, I was given orders to withdraw. I did so, but later found out that she had raced back up to the top and nearly died taking on the guards there. Though I apologized, and insured she was alright, we left her to recuperate fully among allies as we approached our next goal. Capturing another strategic point, we needed to close a gate, a two person job. One of my comrades fell, while the others were occupied, distracting our foes. As his stealthy nature would allow both of us to creep to the mechanism, seal it, and jam it shut, I revived him to assist me in this. Suddenly, the Slayer appeared behind me from her invisible hiding place and stabbed me, very nearly ending my life. Was she truly justified in this? Having jeopardized our mission, attacking a superior, and ignoring orders? Does it not seem that she would have fallen out of favor of her divine patron? *Calmly pulls up a seat and spins it around, sitting on the cahir and leaning over the back of it, awaiting a reply in earnest.* I'll treat this one all OOC (you'll see why). In my campaign Demons are Demons, Devils are Devils, and neither can ever be anything but Evil. So basically according to my Campaign (and thus the world my Paladin lives in), you don't exist. There are no True Neutral Incubi, nor could there be. If my Paladin lived in a world where such things were possible, then the words "Demon" and "Devil" would no longer mean what they do in his current game (and in the D&D rules if I understand them right), thus in such a world an Incubi would not be a creature of Evil incarnate, but merely another type of monsterous race that leaned towards Evil. Thus his code would not mention them (which it currently does), and in such a case, of course, he would be treated like a Neutral Goblin or Orc, with suspicion initially based on his appearance, but in the long run based on his actions. It seems to me that you are artificially creating a moral dilemma. You take a creature that Paladins hate (perhaps above all others) specifially because there is no spark of good in it and because it is a being of pure evil, and then you make a non-evil version of it and ask what to do with it. If non-evil versions of Demons and Devils were possible, they would be no different from any other evil monster, they fall into their own category because they can't be anything but evil
Eridrau 06-15-07, 01:02 AM	snip Well, an OOC reply deserves an OOC response I suppose. In all actuality, they are stated as characters in Savage Species, with the Chaotic, and Evil Subtypes. This means that they 'ping' on evil-dar, and a generic devil, will of course be irredeemably evil. But since when are PCs generic creatures? I specifically went about his history and came up with completely logical reasons for him to be 'non evil' in outlook, at my DM's advising. (He actually advised an LG Cubi Paladin, but I can't play Paladins of Honour, so...) To get utterly technical, he's a part fiend, half-erinyes, mated with a celestial fey, drawing the 'evil' from the mother and the 'chaos' from the father, making him very very CLOSE to being an incubus without actually being. Without a PHD in demonology though, you couldn't tell the difference. I forget which book it's mentioned in, I BELIVE it's Vile Darkness, though I don't have that on hand, they mention the havoc that could be caused by forcing a helm of opposite alignment onto a Solar. If it's possible for such beings to have their views perverted by magical means, and they are beings of raw magic (Tainted by good, evil, nachos, whatever.) could they not stray to their own path, if they have a strong enough sense of self? The above situation did happen (yeah I left out some details, I figured they were irrelevant, I suppose not). The most significant of them being that he went out of his way, and risked his own neck to save her life. Not for any personal reasons, or hope of 'favours', she was a friend of a friend, he couldn't let her die like that. The question was more of, should she not fall? Even though her target was actively (and visibly) struggling towards redemption, and had in fact saved her life, without coercing some kind of reward out of her for it. Regardless, my appologies for offending the sensibilities that some things are 'bad and must be smished'. I sincerely hope to see more Lawful Good Paladins (I.e. the general feel of the residents here ) as a result of this thread and it's ilk, instead of plethora of Lawful Stupid ones that I've been witness to. (I think I've avoided the worst of the horror stories, but some people just... guh.)
Zandolit 06-15-07, 01:55 AM	Regardless, my appologies for offending the sensibilities that some things are 'bad and must be smished'. I sincerely hope to see more Lawful Good Paladins (I.e. the general feel of the residents here ) as a result of this thread and it's ilk, instead of plethora of Lawful Stupid ones that I've been witness to. (I think I've avoided the worst of the horror stories, but some people just... guh.) OOC: The character I've been using in this thread was in a party with a paladin the DM called "The only person I've ever seen play a Drow and a paladin the same way," and when I mentioned my (Lawful Good!) character had been scared of him, said "Yeah, I think everybody was." So... I feel your pain. In our campaign world... actually, maybe I'll do this in character. This character is not a paladin, but she's an LG healer, so if you don't mind a perspective from the alignment, if not the class, and since she's been participating in the discussion anyway... IC: Suddenly, the Slayer appeared behind me from her invisible hiding place and stabbed me, very nearly ending my life. Was she truly justified in this? *The Duskling winces.* No. She shouldn't have done that. I don't believe people are evil just because of how they're born. We all have choices. Some people have harder choices than others. If your choice was redemption, it was wrong for her to hurt you, no matter what you look like or where you came from. I'm sorry for what happened to you. Betrayal is one of the things that hurts the most. I would never wish that on anyone. I think you should be encouraged in your decision to avoid evil. I know it takes a lot of strength. I'm glad you're fighting that battle. I wouldn't have tried to hurt you, and I would have done what I could to help you with your resolution. Obviously we do not have the full story, and the demons of deceit are not the best of sources. This could be the full story. Even paladins are wrong sometimes. When I first met the paladin I told you about before, he thought I deserved to die because people he viewed as authority figures told him I was bad. The only reason he didn't try to kill me is that his liege lord ordered him to leave me alone. If he had attacked me and succeeded in killing me, the hundreds of people whose lives I have saved would be dead, and not a single innocent life would have actually been saved by my death. He eventually decided I didn't deserve to die, but if his hand hadn't been stayed, he might have ended my life. Some paladins... just like some of everyone... make hasty decisions. I don't even know this person, so I can't say for sure what happened, but I certainly think it's possible. But... Now demon. Get. Out. Of. My. Head. Yes, could you not do that? Hearing voices in my head kind of... brings back bad memories. Can you talk? If so, please don't be in my head anymore. Thanks. -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer
BoringInfoGuy 06-15-07, 02:08 AM	True in general statements, but I would say that if you're going to say someone else is wrong (especially in an arrogant manner), you should be absolutely right by all books. Rather difficult, almost impossible. Too many books. Not sure what you're talking about here (it's late and I may simply be missing something), the only part of any of your posts I was deliberately referencing was the one I quoted, it was itself a response to a response, so I see where you might have had to look back, and yes it probably would've been a good idea to quote the whole discussion, but I didn't think of it. Mistake on my part. Your name was similar enough to the other persons that I thought you were he. Actually, you're still incorrect about this, page 6 of the Epic Level Handbook says under the section entitled No Limits, "although most of the tables in this book only show information up to a certain level (often 30th), that level is by no means the limit of a character's advancement." It then covers levels beyond (basically just keep same trends going). So it would be entirely possible to convert a level 21 Paladin to a level 21 Blackguard. Aw :censored:. Ok, if you use the Epic Level Handbook rules, a 21st level paladin could burn every paladin level into blackguard levels. Still an optional rule, as opposed to a core rule. On a side note, I'm sorry that I was arrogant towards you, it wasn't appropriate and I apologize. Don't worry about it. If I'm going to write arrogantly, I won't take insult for having someone call me on it. Honestly, my attitude is from spending multiple frustrating days at work having to constantly reexplain the same thing over and over again to people who should already know what I'm trying to explain. Besides, you argue with me the way I respect, by actually going to the rules. In this way, I can actually learn something. Would you believe that there have actually been times when I've found a rule that argued against my point, and I've had to post it myself because no one else bothered to check? If you had to carry the argument against yourself as well as the argument you're trying to make, then wouldn't you call that a waste of time?
Eridrau 06-15-07, 02:38 AM	Snippity *After a moment's pause, he still responds, his voice echoing in mind's hearing.* Some days I crave my voice back. I offered it to my goddess as the first step on my path away from my nature, and can nary speak above a whisper now. Believe me, it hurts at times. But you raised an excellent point, people can fall, but they can also be redeemed. Sharess, my matron deity went through the cycles of corruption and redemption, which encourages me to at very least resist evil, if not actively do good. I had been focusing on the wrong thing. Though little evil can come from a death, sometimes it's more important to let them live. A few may suffer in the short term, but in the end they may more than make restitution for all their deeds, not just the newer ones. Oh, and I already forgave her for it, not the first time an overzealous one has stuck me with a pointy object. Thank you, and I bid you adieu. *Bows gracefully and replaces his chair before slipping out of the thread*
Stormbrand 06-15-07, 03:21 AM	This could be the full story. Even paladins are wrong sometimes. When I first met the paladin I told you about before, he thought I deserved to die because people he viewed as authority figures told him I was bad. The only reason he didn't try to kill me is that his liege lord ordered him to leave me alone. If he had attacked me and succeeded in killing me, the hundreds of people whose lives I have saved would be dead, and not a single innocent life would have actually been saved by my death. He eventually decided I didn't deserve to die, but if his hand hadn't been stayed, he might have ended my life. Some paladins... just like some of everyone... make hasty decisions. I don't even know this person, so I can't say for sure what happened, but I certainly think it's possible. But... My friend, the reasons of the Slayer would make the full story, but so far I have been told of an unexplained attack. An unexplained attack is not a full story. As for the creature itself, that alone is impossible given the story. The wings do not match an incubus, incubi are not born, the limit of their free will is the method or choice of atrocity. If this entity is indeed blasphemy made flesh, then the tale it speaks is a lie. As for the paladin who sought your death, he sounds dangerous enough that I should seek him out. Remember that I am sworn to bring swift end to the wicked. We can sense darkness in the hearts of others, and there is clearly none in yours. Investigation would swiftly show that your soul is as bright and worthy as any one could aspire to.
Hydryh 06-15-07, 10:46 AM	I am sure that she would be willing to risk those dangers but, having read those dangers, do you think that I should risk them, I fear my judgment may be clouded. *smile* If you bear the respect for her that love brings, and she is willing to risk all for you, who are you to stop her? Freedom to choose one's own destiny is a sovereign Law unto itself.
Hydryh 06-15-07, 10:52 AM	Was she truly justified in this? Having jeopardized our mission, attacking a superior, and ignoring orders? Does it not seem that she would have fallen out of favor of her divine patron? In truth, I do not know of her patron deity. However, if she is sworn to serve good, as you do, and she is under your command, her actions were unquestionably wrong. I would likely have her held under suspicion of being a spy, and regardless of how that turned out, have her discharged from my service. A ballista that is not properly mounted can be more dangerous than those of the enemy. Count Ian Boydson Silvercrest 893 A.E.
Hydryh 06-15-07, 10:54 AM	sir ian, have you heard of the so called psionics? I have heard of them, but aside from studying the dreaded mind flayers I know little of them. Why do you ask, friend?
Hydryh 06-15-07, 11:06 AM	First to address what I see as the simplest (though not easiest) question: it is never right to do evil. It does not matter that good may result (i.e. kill a baby, save a town), a true paladin will never commit an act of evil. I believe (OOC: and I'll paraphrase/quote page 9 of the BoED, a part that I agree with) that while some good men may see commiting an evil act as a necessary sacrifice, or indeed see losing their paladinhood as a a necessary sacrifice, they are missing the big picture. When a paladin commits an evil act, the effects are larger than the immediate circumstance. If I were to stoop to evil, even towards a good end, I would be invalidating the concept of true good. In addition, I would be shifting the balance of good and evil in this world. As a paladin, I must remain true to my beliefs in the face of a cruel world; my refusal to EVER commit or condone evil acts is the very substance of my paladinhood. When I answered that one should slay an infant rather than allow a town to die, it was with the understanding that there was somehow no other option. For example, if I were ever to be posed this choice by the combined might of Hextor, Vecna, Nerull, and Grummsh, I would have only four options: kill the infant, allow the town to die, make no choice (thus dooming both infant and town), or throw away my life directly assaulting gods (once again dooming the infant and the town. In any situation where it was remotely possible to save both, I would do so, even at the cost of my life. In the aforementioned scenario, however, unless the gods of Good assist me I am quite at a loss. Next on the topic of honor vs. glory; I agree with my brother Stormbrand that too many young initiates seek glory in the name of honor and the two are often confused. Honor is all about adhering to your code: not every paladin will have the exact same code, though there should be similarities (OOC: Quintessential Paladin pp. 92-97, Quintessential Paladin 2 pp.88-101). Personally, I believe that honor is about personality, not tactics. My honor is in keeping my word, doing what is right, obeying legitimate authority, and opposing evil wherever I find it. Personally, I have no problems with using poison, killing from ambush, or killing someone in their sleep. As a knight I find such actions somewhat distasteful and typically avoid, but I don't believe that such methods are inherantly immoral and I have used them on occasion when I thought it appropriate. I am truly amazed that the Platinum Dragon welcomes you into his service, then. You may be better off walking the dark path of the Grey Guard, in my opinion.
vegetalss4 06-15-07, 11:19 AM	When I answered that one should slay an infant rather than allow a town to die, it was with the understanding that there was somehow no other option. For example, if I were ever to be posed this choice by the combined might of Hextor, Vecna, Nerull, and Grummsh, I would have only four options: kill the infant, allow the town to die, make no choice (thus dooming both infant and town), or throw away my life directly assaulting gods (once again dooming the infant and the town. In any situation where it was remotely possible to save both, I would do so, even at the cost of my life. In the aforementioned scenario, however, unless the gods of Good assist me I am quite at a loss. . ever wondered that there might be a Reason all these evil gods want that infant dead?
Mathurian 06-15-07, 12:59 PM	Rather difficult, almost impossible. Too many books. Ok, on further reflection, that's probably true Aw :censored: Ok, if you use the Epic Level Handbook rules, a 21st level paladin could burn every paladin level into blackguard levels. Still an optional rule, as opposed to a core rule. Thank you, you have no idea (or maybe you do) how annoying it is when someone won't admit a simple mistake Don't worry about it. If I'm going to write arrogantly, I won't take insult for having someone call me on it. Honestly, my attitude is from spending multiple frustrating days at work having to constantly reexplain the same thing over and over again to people who should already know what I'm trying to explain. Besides, you argue with me the way I respect, by actually going to the rules. In this way, I can actually learn something. Would you believe that there have actually been times when I've found a rule that argued against my point, and I've had to post it myself because no one else bothered to check? If you had to carry the argument against yourself as well as the argument you're trying to make, then wouldn't you call that a waste of time? I definitely understand the feeling, and it can be endlessly frusterating. I do believe the whole arguing against your own point thing, as I've had to do the same myself occasionally. Regardless, my appologies for offending the sensibilities that some things are 'bad and must be smished'. I sincerely hope to see more Lawful Good Paladins (I.e. the general feel of the residents here ) as a result of this thread and it's ilk, instead of plethora of Lawful Stupid ones that I've been witness to. (I think I've avoided the worst of the horror stories, but some people just... guh.) My paladin would essentially use detect evil on you and go from there; admittedly, he would think it unusual that an incubi wouldn't be evil, but he would assume a polymorph/illusion/something was going on and that you weren't what you appeared. I was just mentioning that, in my campaign, the reason that Demons/Devils are what they are is that they are irredeemable, and if they weren't, then Paladin's would have a different view of them. When I answered that one should slay an infant rather than allow a town to die, it was with the understanding that there was somehow no other option. For example, if I were ever to be posed this choice by the combined might of Hextor, Vecna, Nerull, and Grummsh, I would have only four options: kill the infant, allow the town to die, make no choice (thus dooming both infant and town), or throw away my life directly assaulting gods (once again dooming the infant and the town. In any situation where it was remotely possible to save both, I would do so, even at the cost of my life. In the aforementioned scenario, however, unless the gods of Good assist me I am quite at a loss. (IC) I hear what you are saying my brother, and it is a view held by many, but it is not my own. I would not slay the infant, and if the town died, then so be it. The ends NEVER justify the means in my opinion, and I would not stoop to slaying infants for ANY reason whatsoever, regardless of the good I believed would result. I am truly amazed that the Platinum Dragon welcomes you into his service, then. You may be better off walking the dark path of the Grey Guard, in my opinion. (IC) Anyone who can walk the path of the called is already fulfilling the demands of The Master of the North Wind as far as honor goes. It is my belief that any action that would anger my liege enough that he would disown me would also cause my fall from grace and mark the end of my calling. (OOC) The Quintessential Paladin 1 and 2 explains that not all Paladins have the same code and that it is perfectly acceptable for a particular code to allow poison/ambush/assassination/what-have-you. I personally see no reason for some methods of killing to be more "honorable" than others. I can think of two arguments against such methods (if neither is yours, please elucidate); they are inherantly immoral and dishonorable or they lend themselves to immoral and dishonorable ends. I agree that they lend themselves to those ends, which is why I rarely use them, but I don't think they are inherantly immoral or dishonorable, which is why I occasionally have. If you think they are inherantly immoral/dishonorable, why?
Evil DM Mk3 06-15-07, 01:08 PM	Unfortuately even a good Incubus would show up as evil. Evil sub-type see.
Zandolit 06-15-07, 01:42 PM	My friend, the reasons of the Slayer would make the full story, but so far I have been told of an unexplained attack. An unexplained attack is not a full story. *The Duskling rubs her left forearm unconsciously.* I agree. Except in the case of madness, such things are not without cause. All I meant to suggest was that in the Slayer's mind, his heritage and appearance may have been sufficient cause. As for the creature itself, that alone is impossible given the story. The wings do not match an incubus, incubi are not born, the limit of their free will is the method or choice of atrocity. If this entity is indeed blasphemy made flesh, then the tale it speaks is a lie. Oh. I don't really know much about demons. I have very little education, and so know little about types of beings I've never seen before. An incubus is one of the many things I've never seen. As for the paladin who sought your death, he sounds dangerous enough that I should seek him out. Remember that I am sworn to bring swift end to the wicked. We can sense darkness in the hearts of others, and there is clearly none in yours. Investigation would swiftly show that your soul is as bright and worthy as any one could aspire to. Thank you for your kind words about me. I've made plenty of mistakes, though. (I will say those mistakes were not out of malice.) I do try my best, though, and thank you. The paladin is dead, unfortunately, and has gone on to be with his god. I'm not actually sure which god... he always just called it "my god," and I don't recall ever asking. He was slain, along with many others, in the battle against the dark god. It was a difficult battle-- I came within an inch of death myself-- and he fought bravely. I would have been more than willing to Reincarnate him had his spirit desired it, but he preferred to go on to his hard-earned rest. I don't think there was any wickedness in his decision to take action against me, though it was a mistake. He was being loyal to his superiors, people whose judgment he believed he could trust. Should have have taken more personal initiative in the matter and exercised his own judgment? Yes. Should he have been more careful? Yes. But I think it was just that he was horribly, horribly mistaken rather than acting on any evil impulses. He tried to do the right thing at all turns, but his idea of the right thing was often clouded by pride. I admit he frightened me sometimes, but I bear his spirit no ill will. -Lylessa Uluki
BoringInfoGuy 06-15-07, 02:31 PM	Unfortuately even a good Incubus would show up as evil. Evil sub-type see. If you somehow have a non evil Incubus, then wouldn't it needed to have somehow lost that subtype? Still, having a non evil devil / demon seems like having a Frost Giant who doesn't have the cold subtype. Subtypes are meant to represent inherent traits that make up creatures of that type. I know some DM's and players dislike having always evil mean always evil. They feel that all sentient creatures should have more freedom in choosing their alignment, and that it creates a more diverse game. In my opinion, having all creature be inherently the same actually creates less diversity. Of course, even the MM states that there are RARE exceptions to the norm in creatures that have the always description for a race. And adventurers are often so because they aren't the norm. So it is possible. Regardless, there are too many good drow.
Evil DM Mk3 06-15-07, 02:36 PM	Oddly enough no, a LG deamon is therfore Lawful Evil Good and Chaotic as far as spells are concented. I supose the sub-types indicate that that power is an inherant part of them in everyway.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-15-07, 03:22 PM	What is good? Is it a reasoned-good? Is it pragmatic success? Is it some objective list of actions/universal states to which intent does not matter? What is idealogy? Is it seeking a goodly state of the universe, or a goodly practice of the universe? Are both possible? What is philosophy? Is it only what you can measure? Is it all cold logic and metrics? Does philosophy speak for the soul? Can a reasoned ruleset for good create the ideal world, or is there some elusive undefined gap between reasoned ethos and the idealogical choice? What is virtue? Are values commesurable? If they are not, is pluralism the only way to maintain a blunted peace? What of progress? Is peace the ultimate goal of 'good', because peace can be bought through the dulling of cultures and the silence of objection -- through heavy compromise. If, that is, peace means merely stillness and quiet. What is tyranny? Wouldn't the enforced 'good' of a truly righteous paladin, despite objection of many who disagreed, be, in fact, tyrannical ( regardless of the objective good )?
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-15-07, 03:27 PM	Oh, and the identification of a primal qualitative evil is necessary for a collectivism to be created around all 'good' peoples. Its a tribalism, a nationalism, an us vs. them construct designed to elevate the righteous man ( according to various values and beliefs ) to the state of a cultural hero. Where human ideas of good may be common among humans, the beliefs of honor may differ significantly between cultures. Mercy may be looked down upon. A stealthy holy ninja - a rogue of sorts who uses sneak attacks and poisons - could easily be revered as a similar holy warrior through the same arguments of collectivism. The Paladin would certainly not be their enemy; the same objective evil would. However, the debate may rage who truly represents the elusive objective good. In other words, asking a Paladin about the existence of a good-evil is a contradiction, an absurdity which destroys the basis upon which a Paladin is created. In summary, asking Paladins about good-demons questions the very existence of Paladins. Its not a question easily answered. The best a Paladin can do would be to redefine what the objective evil is, such as to orient themselves upon another line in the ethereal sand. ;)
Stormbrand 06-15-07, 07:29 PM	*The Duskling rubs her left forearm unconsciously.* I agree. Except in the case of madness, such things are not without cause. All I meant to suggest was that in the Slayer's mind, his heritage and appearance may have been sufficient cause. Oh. I don't really know much about demons. I have very little education, and so know little about types of beings I've never seen before. An incubus is one of the many things I've never seen. Thank you for your kind words about me. I've made plenty of mistakes, though. (I will say those mistakes were not out of malice.) I do try my best, though, and thank you. The paladin is dead, unfortunately, and has gone on to be with his god. I'm not actually sure which god... he always just called it "my god," and I don't recall ever asking. He was slain, along with many others, in the battle against the dark god. It was a difficult battle-- I came within an inch of death myself-- and he fought bravely. I would have been more than willing to Reincarnate him had his spirit desired it, but he preferred to go on to his hard-earned rest. I don't think there was any wickedness in his decision to take action against me, though it was a mistake. He was being loyal to his superiors, people whose judgment he believed he could trust. Should have have taken more personal initiative in the matter and exercised his own judgment? Yes. Should he have been more careful? Yes. But I think it was just that he was horribly, horribly mistaken rather than acting on any evil impulses. He tried to do the right thing at all turns, but his idea of the right thing was often clouded by pride. I admit he frightened me sometimes, but I bear his spirit no ill will. -Lylessa Uluki You are welcome, my dear. Just know that carelessness and pride are two grave dangers in any warrior, as one who spares little thought to the rightness of his cause before raising his sword is sure to cost an innocent life. As he nearly did with yours. A prideful warrior often places his pride before what is just, or in place of what is just. Another great danger. Prideful men do wicked deeds and call them their right. As for the incident with the Slayer, the story seemed to contain limited history between the two, such as the fiend being classed as a 'superior'. The time for annihilating a fiend would have come far earlier in my view, certainly not in the middle of a mission.
Mathurian 06-16-07, 08:02 AM	If you somehow have a non evil Incubus, then wouldn't it needed to have somehow lost that subtype? First of all, amen to the good drow thing! Secondly, this is the kind of thing I was talking about; in my campaign, things that have the evil subtype are evil and if they somehow became good, they would lose their evil subtype. It makes no sense to me to have something show up as evil to a detect evil spell but still be good (outside of trickery, but we're talking legitimately show up as evil)
vegetalss4 06-16-07, 08:38 AM	First of all, amen to the good drow thing! Secondly, this is the kind of thing I was talking about; in my campaign, things that have the evil subtype are evil and if they somehow became good, they would lose their evil subtype. It makes no sense to me to have something show up as evil to a detect evil spell but still be good (outside of trickery, but we're talking legitimately show up as evil) see good ghost...
Kalai_Eljahn 06-16-07, 10:13 AM	*A fairly beautiful woman, gold-eyed and haired, in noble's clothing appears. Through her natural confidence you can detect a hint of nervousness, and through her pleasant manner her soul gleams with the unmistakeable trace of evil. She keeps one hand resting near her whip, which appears to be made of the skin of a constrictor snake.* Greetings, Sir Ian. I am the orator Carlynia of the respected house of Darcian, and I hope that you can grant me a degree of perspective. First of all, I have heard the argument that Good and Evil, as well as Law and Chaos, are forces working in opposition to one another. On the outer planes where dwell fiends and celestials this seems to be the case but I am not sure how these forces apply to the material plane. A creature with fiendish blood such as my companion Sydua can detect as good, whereas a creature with celestial blood such as myself ... well, you know by now what a paladin sees in me. And yet as far as I know neither her nor I ever chose 'against' our natures, though occasionally she will not be able to stop fighting even when her foe is defeated. I know that my morals are twisted against individual life. You have said before to strive for the greatest good, and that is what I try to do, but in understanding the whole picture I am unaware of the parts. There is something I once heard, that a human cannot identify with a group of more than two hundred people. For me, I cannot identify with less, not in an altruistic fashion. It is challenging for me to identify with another individual as anything beyond a tool or a toy. *She seems somewhat shaken when she realizes how honest she has been thus far, but doggedly presses on.* As a descendant of the god of love Eros, son of Aphrodite by the war god Ares, and also of the line of Apollo god of Justice and Death, I worry for how this quality affects my judgement. You speak of love, but for me, to love a physically present creature means that I wish to dominate it; to contest my will against a stronger and thrill at how I can control its movements, scar its soul, but not destroy it. Atrocities which would not faze me conducted against a single person, which I would derive some fascination from, might spread like a cancer and negatively affect my nation. My companions are a druid and a ranger (Sydua), neither of whom are particularly interested in the political fabric of civilization that flows in my veins and is my life's work. Sydua especially has contempt for it, and though I am quite fond of her she would likely slay me on the spot if she learned the full extent of my nature. How can I take into account what I am blind to, and fight the sadism threatening to spread from my ... *considers* ... unbalanced viewpoint? *She smiles slightly* Sydua would laugh that I was consulting you. She has a good deal of contempt for paladins, consider them fools. Same for politicians and property-owners, in fact, so that's something we've got in common at least. I am not normally this open about myself, but I truly do wish to hear what you have to say, and with any luck we shall never see each other again.
Hydryh 06-16-07, 12:43 PM	Hail and well met, lady. I hope you have not waited too long for a reply. Greetings, Sir Ian. I am the orator Carlynia of the respected house of Darcian, and I hope that you can grant me a degree of perspective. First of all, I have heard the argument that Good and Evil, as well as Law and Chaos, are forces working in opposition to one another. On the outer planes where dwell fiends and celestials this seems to be the case but I am not sure how these forces apply to the material plane. A creature with fiendish blood such as my companion Sydua can detect as good, whereas a creature with celestial blood such as myself ... well, you know by now what a paladin sees in me. And yet as far as I know neither her nor I ever chose 'against' our natures, though occasionally she will not be able to stop fighting even when her foe is defeated. One must constantly watch oneself for signs of temptation, if one wishes to overcome evil. As a wise elven cleric once said: "Ward your heart, for it shapes your mind; Ward your mind, for it shapes your words; Ward your words, for they shape your deeds; Ward your deeds, for they shape your Fate; Thus it may rightly be said; 'Ward your heart to safeguard your Fate.'" I know that my morals are twisted against individual life. You have said before to strive for the greatest good, and that is what I try to do, but in understanding the whole picture I am unaware of the parts. There is something I once heard, that a human cannot identify with a group of more than two hundred people. For me, I cannot identify with less, not in an altruistic fashion. It is challenging for me to identify with another individual as anything beyond a tool or a toy. I find your view genuinely alien, milady. For me it is the knowledge of what great heights an individual may climb to that girds my soul against the pain of seeing the depths we tend to sink to together. Perhaps you should heed the words of the philosopher Yeshua bin Yosef, who advised his students to love others as they loved themselves. Surely there is someone you care for? If so, try to see their face when you look at a stranger. I find that this helps me summon reserves of courtesy and patience that I did not believe I possessed. As a descendant of the god of love Eros, son of Aphrodite by the war god Ares, and also of the line of Apollo god of Justice and Death, I worry for how this quality affects my judgement. You speak of love, but for me, to love a physically present creature means that I wish to dominate it; to contest my will against a stronger and thrill at how I can control its movements, scar its soul, but not destroy it. Atrocities which would not faze me conducted against a single person, which I would derive some fascination from, might spread like a cancer and negatively affect my nation. My companions are a druid and a ranger (Sydua), neither of whom are particularly interested in the political fabric of civilization that flows in my veins and is my life's work. Sydua especially has contempt for it, and though I am quite fond of her she would likely slay me on the spot if she learned the full extent of my nature. How can I take into account what I am blind to, and fight the sadism threatening to spread from my ... *considers* ... unbalanced viewpoint? Sadism... A deadly trap indeed. In all honest, this is a drive that I am hard-pressed to oppose, if compassion is truly so foreign to you. Perhaps you should dedicate some time to meditation on the nature of love, and how your goddess of love--Aphrodite?--would see her will carried out. If that does not help, you may be well-served by seeking out those stronger than yourself, so long as they are not evil themselves. Spend time with those whom you cannot control, and perhaps the joy of letting others simply be will come to you. Sydua would laugh that I was consulting you. She has a good deal of contempt for paladins, consider them fools. Same for politicians and property-owners, in fact, so that's something we've got in common at least. I am not normally this open about myself, but I truly do wish to hear what you have to say, and with any luck we shall never see each other again. *chuckles* As a paladin, a Count, and the owner of a modest keep, I doubt your friend would be too fond of me. Be that as it may, I hope I have been of some assistance. Please continue to be as open as you may afford to be, for honesty often lights the way for other virtues. I will be happy to continue in offering what aid I may, and should you ever succeed in turning from the dark path you will be welcome at Farrowkeep. Count Ian Boydson The Dancing Duke Inn Silvercrest 893 A.E.
Magon 06-16-07, 01:50 PM	as i have qustions, that recuieres you to understand psionics... psionics is im posing you mind upon the realety. this is something so diffrent from magic, that magic cannot dispell it and places where magic is bared, psionics work fine some psions use there mind to change there own body, others shape therethoughts into ectoplasem wich they use for countless purpuses. some can do teleporting and some are clavoiant, some can do elemental damege and lastly some are telepaths... some strong telepaths can even inprint there mind upon someone, and slowly the subject becomes them with all there memories and personalety.. if you are good and do it upon someone evil would it be ab evil act?
Mathurian 06-16-07, 06:20 PM	see good ghost... Maybe I'm misreading it, but i never thought of that table (pp.219 Players Handbook) as referring to undead that aren't evil. Has there been a clarification posted somewhere, or is it just clear to everyone but me? I always assumed that a good ghost (or any other good undead) wouldn't show up to detect evil. When I read the text of detect good, is says just like detect evil except it detects the auras of good creatures. I read that to mean that detect evil does not detect the auras of good creatures, and thus would not detect a good undead creature.
Devil Gnasher 06-16-07, 10:35 PM	When I answered that one should slay an infant rather than allow a town to die, it was with the understanding that there was somehow no other option. For example, if I were ever to be posed this choice by the combined might of Hextor, Vecna, Nerull, and Grummsh, I would have only four options: kill the infant, allow the town to die, make no choice (thus dooming both infant and town), or throw away my life directly assaulting gods (once again dooming the infant and the town. In any situation where it was remotely possible to save both, I would do so, even at the cost of my life. In the aforementioned scenario, however, unless the gods of Good assist me I am quite at a loss. I'd have a fifth. Call for reinforcements from all over the cosmos, then attack. Then I'll turn to these unholy gods and say, “Hey you idiots. Do you honestly think you can get me to kill this kid? Are you out of your minds? If you want to this kid dead you my friends and I. In fact you should be afraid of my friends and me, not the other way around. This skeleton fellow here, Jack Skellington defeated a cockroach hive mind single handedly. This ogre, Shrek defeated not one, but two tyrants, with the aid of his friends, also present. I have also brought Hellboy and his companions with me. Now allow me to introduce a few more. Captain Carrot of the Anhk-Mor-Pork Nightwatch, Duke Samuel Vimes, also of the Nightwatch, Rincewind of the Unseen University (he makes a good distraction), Granny Weatherax and Susan Sto Heilt." I pause for a moment to catch my breath then say, "Do you hear that sound. That is the sound of every past, present and future cataclysm. That is the sound of the engine of the TARDIS. That is the sound of the arrival of the Doctor, the one whom the Daleks call "The Oncoming Storm". If you want to this kid dead you have to go through my friends and I. Run away when you still have the chance."
Maekrix_Waere 06-17-07, 01:14 AM	It would indeed be reasonable. Were the founding premise true. No source to my knowledge claims that poisons are dishonourable because of their effects. My belief is that poison favours treacherous use, and are thus dishonourable. Positoxins and ravages do no such thing. Treachery is the violation of faith, or trust. Poison can be used in treachery, but it can be used just as a knife, or a sword could be used. If a man poisons his wife of 10 years, and another stabs his wife of 10 years to death with a knife, would you say that if the one that killed his wife with poison was being more treacherous? If not, then why does the code not ban Paladins from using knives? If so, explain your reasoning. I argue that Poisons' effects are what make them dishonourable because they reduce your opponent's ability to defend themselves. In this regard, I would also say that if a Paladin Sunders his opponent's weapon or Disarms him, with the intent to kill him AFTER disarming him (instead of genuinely offering a chance to surrender first) then he should be (once again) warned ONCE, and if he repeats it, he should lose his powers. This would not apply against opponents who focus on Spells and SLA's, as there is no way (other than Poisons and substances which do the exact same things as Poisons) to disarm them of those abilities. Also, though I do not own it, I have read (repeatedly) that the BoED has a VERY childish view of "Good" and "Evil." I would hope that the Paladins, Zeniths of Good, would have a more mature outlook on the subject than I have heard the BoED does. I would also like to refer you to my earlier example of the Blackguard using Poisitoxins against a Good-Aligned Lich on how the arguement for Poisitoxins breaks down.
Maekrix_Waere 06-17-07, 01:21 AM	I'd have a fifth. Call for reinforcements from all over the cosmos, then attack. Then I'll turn to these unholy gods and say, “Hey you idiots. Do you honestly think you can get me to kill this kid? Are you out of your minds? If you want to this kid dead you my friends and I. In fact you should be afraid of my friends and me, not the other way around. This skeleton fellow here, Jack Skellington defeated a cockroach hive mind single handedly. This ogre, Shrek defeated not one, but two tyrants, with the aid of his friends, also present. I have also brought Hellboy and his companions with me. Now allow me to introduce a few more. Captain Carrot of the Anhk-Mor-Pork Nightwatch, Duke Samuel Vimes, formerly of the Nightwatch, Rincewind of the Unseen University (he makes a good distraction), Granny Weatherax and Susan Sto Heilt." I pause for a moment to catch my breath then say, "Do you hear that sound. That is the sound of every past, present and future cataclysm. That is the sound of the engine of the TARDIS. That is the sound of the arrival of the Doctor, the one whom the Daleks call "The Oncoming Storm". If you want to this kid dead you have to go through my friends and I. Run away when you still have the chance." Nerull uses his "Alter Reality" Divine ability to cause you all to have never existed, in retaliation for your insolence. His clerics kill the child. Gotta love Deities and Demigods. Before you argue the Good Gods would bring you back to life, let me tell you, I ran a mock battle of all the (D&D) Gods with all the Good-Aligned Gods (and St. Cuthbert) on one side and all the Evil-Aligned Gods (and Wee Jas) on the other. The Good-Aligned Gods lost 5 of 6 battles. :P Maybe it was just bad luck, but...
Stormbrand 06-17-07, 02:05 AM	Treachery is the violation of faith, or trust. Poison can be used in treachery, but it can be used just as a knife, or a sword could be used. If a man poisons his wife of 10 years, and another stabs his wife of 10 years to death with a knife, would you say that if the one that killed his wife with poison was being more treacherous? If not, then why does the code not ban Paladins from using knives? If so, explain your reasoning. Paladins are banned from treachery done with any tool or weapon. Knives favour cutting, poison favours treachery. Spears favour thrusting, poison favours treachery. Fire favours burning, poison favours treachery. Axes favour chopping, poison favours treachery. Poison is a tool better suited for treachery than anything else, and that is justification for a blanket rule against poisons. What do you think of by 'poisoning'? I think of killing in secret and hiding personal involvement in the killing. I think of deception and betrayal. Sure, it is possible with other weapons, but it is standard for poison. I argue that Poisons' effects are what make them dishonourable because they reduce your opponent's ability to defend themselves. In this regard, I would also say that if a Paladin Sunders his opponent's weapon or Disarms him, with the intent to kill him AFTER disarming him (instead of genuinely offering a chance to surrender first) then he should be (once again) warned ONCE, and if he repeats it, he should lose his powers. How many warnings would you give a paladin for wearing armour? Or using an enchanted sword? Or using a weapon full stop? After all, if your AC and attack bonus and damage bonus is higher then your opponent has less chance to defend themselves? How many warnings would you give a paladin for gaining levels? Being above first level reduces your foes ability to defend themselves, since they could more easily defeat a 1st level character. Why do you believe that the enemy should always have the advantage? Also, though I do not own it, I have read (repeatedly) that the BoED has a VERY childish view of "Good" and "Evil." I would hope that the Paladins, Zeniths of Good, would have a more mature outlook on the subject than I have heard the BoED does. I own the BoED, and yes it does have a childish view of good and evil, which contradicts itself on many turns. EG: Poisons are evil because they cause needless pain and suffering. THEN presents Ravages which are the 'good' version of Poisons, which are specifically described as wracking the victim with agony. EG2: Good characters must accept all surrender, no matter how many times the surrendering opponent betrays them. However, the death penalty is non-evil. I would also like to refer you to my earlier example of the Blackguard using Poisitoxins against a Good-Aligned Lich on how the arguement for Poisitoxins breaks down. What about the example? How is it any different from using a mace?
Maekrix_Waere 06-17-07, 02:47 AM	Paladins are banned from treachery done with any tool or weapon. Knives favour cutting, poison favours treachery. Spears favour thrusting, poison favours treachery. Fire favours burning, poison favours treachery. Axes favour chopping, poison favours treachery. Poison is a tool better suited for treachery than anything else, and that is justification for a blanket rule against poisons. No, they aren't. POLITICS is the tool BEST suited for treachery. :P What do you think of by 'poisoning'? I think of killing in secret and hiding personal involvement in the killing. I think of deception and betrayal. Sure, it is possible with other weapons, but it is standard for poison. I think of weakening your opponent using a toxic substance introduced into their system. That is DISHONOURABLE. How many warnings would you give a paladin for wearing armour? Or using an enchanted sword? Or using a weapon full stop? After all, if your AC and attack bonus and damage bonus is higher then your opponent has less chance to defend themselves? How many warnings would you give a paladin for gaining levels? Being above first level reduces your foes ability to defend themselves, since they could more easily defeat a 1st level character. Why do you believe that the enemy should always have the advantage? I believe you misunderstood what I said. I am saying that I would punish a Paladin who removes an opponent's ability to defend themselves FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of being able to CONTINUE fighting without fear of his opponent being able to adequately defend himself. I said that if a Paladin does remove the opponent's ability to defend himself, he must, at the very least, offer that opponent a genuine chance to surrender, or else risk losing his powers. Attacking an opponent who is unable to defend himself, without giving him the chance to surrender first, is dishonourable, whatever way you cut it. Also, a Paladin equips himself with increasingly better armour and weapons, and increases in personal power (gaining levels) because the power of the weapons and armour of the foes he must face, as well as the power they would still hold WITHOUT them, are also constantly growing. He is doing it to bring himself UP so they will be on an EQUAL PLAYING FIELD, not up so that his enemies will be utterly crushed beneath his armoured boot. I originally wrote this paragraph as a somewhat rambling example, but I feel my point was lost within it, so I will put it plain and simple here: I believe that a Paladin has a DUTY to seek a peaceful solution wherever possible, and to seek reparations first, revenge second. What about the example? How is it any different from using a mace? Because, you (or someone else who made arguements similar to yours, if that is the case, I'm sorry I brought it up) claimed that Ravages and Poisitoxins were (unlike poisons) NOT dishonourable. I was giving an instance in which even the most self-righteous of Paladins could see that Poisitoxins were being used for an Evil and dishonourable purpose, proving that they CAN be used for such purposes.
Stormbrand 06-17-07, 08:14 AM	snip... (Done with OOC, raise your issue IC - which means no reference to Dungeon Master, then I will answer).
maharai23 06-17-07, 09:11 AM	First, I'm being arrogant, not sarcastic. There is a difference. Second, I'm going by core rules. It is reasonable to expect everyone on these boards to be familiar with the core rules. It is not reasonable to demand anyone to have read every book that Wizards has published. (How else can you be certain to have read all of the applicable rules?) If you are going by a rule variation from a splat / supplement book, you should have said so in the first place. Third, since you were responding to my earlier post, you should have quoted it. I had to reread all the posts between mine and yours to make certain you were talking to me at all. That left me annoyed. If you know a rule I don't, fine. But quote your source, and who you're referring to next time. Finally, I just read the ELH. Yes, the Epic Blackguard can trade in more than 10 levels. But the epic BG is only a 20 level class. You can only make a trade if you level 21. So, guess what? You still have at least one paladin level if the epic BG returns to paladinhood. Even when I haven't read all the relevant rules, I'm still right. Example: 11th level Ex-paladin/10th level Assassin (yes, this is possible, using a couple splatbook feats allowing Hide and move silently to become class skills) meets all the prerequisites for blackguard, and chooses to do so. Now, there are only 2 major sources for Epic levels, the DMG, and the Epic Level Handbook (gee, imagine that). By the ELH, this player can immediately trade in all 11 levels of paladin for blackguard. The ex-paladin is now an Assassin 10/Blackguard 11. If you're going to act like you know it all, please don't insult our intelligence by pleading ignorant to what we're speaking of later. Believe me, if you say that something "can't be done" in D&D, you're almost always wrong. In other words, if you're gonna sit at the grown up table, stop making excuses for your inaccuracies, and accept that you made yourself look like a blathering idiot. If you're gonna start telling people they're wrong, admit when you get called out on it. In this instance, you were cited the rules (by someone else), and you STILL got it wrong. So, I'll refer you to your initial advice to me, far more aptly used here, and bid you good day, sir.
High Octane 06-17-07, 09:23 AM	*smile* If you bear the respect for her that love brings, and she is willing to risk all for you, who are you to stop her? Freedom to choose one's own destiny is a sovereign Law unto itself. Oh bulllcraaaaap! I have never heard such a crock in all my life! I've travelled with paladins and do you have any idea how many times they start talking about "destiny" and "Duty" and all those other words meaning they are too afraid of figuring out what to do themselves? Hell their entire existence is defined and made up for them. Think your average paladin ever really forges anything new in the whole morality department? Forget that, they have detect evil to make sure they never have to decide anything. That's why when they get those tough decisions they just fall apart and cant think, blah blah do I kill the baby and save the 1000 people, blah blah, hey heres a thought, HAVE YOUR OWN THOUGHTS! I have made tons of decisions that they would find offensive, and yet I apologize for none of them. Know why? They are my decisions, not theirs. And if I start basing my decisions on what they thought was right, I would stop being me. Have I always made the perfect decision? No. Have I lived a life that serves the "greater good"? Nope. And you know what? I don't feel the slightest remorse. I don't owe them service and help just because I have skill and they don't! Of course that doesnt mean I have the right to bully them or right over their lives just cause I can take them, but that's another story. Destiny. BAH. You paladins annoy me to no end. Be thankful you can take a beating and heal me if I need it otherwise I wouldnt travel with your preachy asses. - Dominic, Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer
Hydryh 06-17-07, 10:24 AM	...some strong telepaths can even inprint there mind upon someone, and slowly the subject becomes them with all there memories and personalety.. if you are good and do it upon someone evil would it be ab evil act? Yes, absolutely! To, as this sounds, re-write someone's soul and replace it with yours is the most vile sin I can imagine. Better to murder them with a poisoned blade after taking them forcefully than to destroy their very soul. I cannot imagine a situation that would justify this act, and if you yourself have performed it, I beseech you to seek atonement!
Hydryh 06-17-07, 10:27 AM	I'd have a fifth. Call for reinforcements from all over the cosmos, then attack. Then I'll turn to these unholy gods and say, “Hey you idiots. Do you honestly think you can get me to kill this kid? Are you out of your minds? If you want to this kid dead you my friends and I. In fact you should be afraid of my friends and me, not the other way around. This skeleton fellow here, Jack Skellington defeated a cockroach hive mind single handedly. This ogre, Shrek defeated not one, but two tyrants, with the aid of his friends, also present. I have also brought Hellboy and his companions with me. Now allow me to introduce a few more. Captain Carrot of the Anhk-Mor-Pork Nightwatch, Duke Samuel Vimes, formerly of the Nightwatch, Rincewind of the Unseen University (he makes a good distraction), Granny Weatherax and Susan Sto Heilt." I pause for a moment to catch my breath then say, "Do you hear that sound. That is the sound of every past, present and future cataclysm. That is the sound of the engine of the TARDIS. That is the sound of the arrival of the Doctor, the one whom the Daleks call "The Oncoming Storm". If you want to this kid dead you have to go through my friends and I. Run away when you still have the chance." Once again, I had thought that the nature of the question precluded any form of reinforcement. If I was incorrect, please accept my apologies--it has been many a long night of travel for me these past days.
Hydryh 06-17-07, 10:58 AM	Oh bulllcraaaaap! I have never heard such a crock in all my life! I've travelled with paladins and do you have any idea how many times they start talking about "destiny" and "Duty" and all those other words meaning they are too afraid of figuring out what to do themselves? Duty is a vital aspect of our work, but should never be relied upon as a crutch to avoid thinking for oneself. Destiny... Some say that our lives are already scribed before we first set foot in the world, others that they are as random as the dice in a waterfront tavern. I personally think that it is a combination of choice and chance that shapes us, and to rely completely upon either alone is folly. Hell their entire existence is defined and made up for them. Think your average paladin ever really forges anything new in the whole morality department? Forget that, they have detect evil to make sure they never have to decide anything. The "average" paladin is required to be an above-average individual. We define ourselves by following the Code; it does not define us. To step off the paladin's path is the easiest thing in the world--one does not even have to fall, simply to say, "it is done; I will bear this burden no longer." Of course one would lose the powers bestowed by our dedication, but when compared to the chance to live a normal life among friends and family, without the long list of enemies that a paladin acquires, it is no wonder that many a young soul has given up the path. As for the ability to search another's soul, any paladin who uses that in place of thought will likely find himself either fallen for lashing out without thought, or more likely killed by animals or mercenaries who care not for Good nor Evil. That's why when they get those tough decisions they just fall apart and cant think, blah blah do I kill the baby and save the 1000 people, blah blah, hey heres a thought, HAVE YOUR OWN THOUGHTS! You... have been reading what is written in these pages, yes? I would think that that alone would be enough to tell you that we are indeed capable of thought. I have made tons of decisions that they would find offensive, and yet I apologize for none of them. Know why? They are my decisions, not theirs. And if I start basing my decisions on what they thought was right, I would stop being me. So long as your decisions were sincerely based on what you thought was right, you have my commendations. After all, it would be hypocritical of us to expect otherwise, as we make our decisions based on what we think is right, with no apologies. We do, however, have the right to disagree with you, just as you do with us, of course. Have I always made the perfect decision? No. Have I lived a life that serves the "greater good"? Nope. And you know what? I don't feel the slightest remorse. I don't owe them service and help just because I have skill and they don't! Of course that doesnt mean I have the right to bully them or right over their lives just cause I can take them, but that's another story. So your decisions are not motivated by what you know to be right, then? You are correct in saying that you do not owe "them" anything, and that you do not have the right to control others. A paladin is not motivated by debt, but rather by selflessness. Additionally, any paladin who seeks to rule others should first master himself. I am the lord of three townships and the adjoining lands, but only by the edict of the King, not my status as a paladin. I do not see this as a reward, nor even as a stroke of good fortune, save that it offers me a new way to guide and set an example for the populace. Destiny. BAH. You paladins annoy me to no end. Be thankful you can take a beating and heal me if I need it otherwise I wouldnt travel with your preachy asses. - Dominic, Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer *raises an eyebrow* Similarly, sir Dominic, I am certain that there is some reason that they seek to travel with you. I may well think of it, in time... Count Ian Boydson The Dancing Duke Inn Silvercrest 893 A.E.
maharai23 06-17-07, 11:11 AM	Oh bulllcraaaaap! I have never heard such a crock in all my life! I've travelled with paladins and do you have any idea how many times they start talking about "destiny" and "Duty" and all those other words meaning they are too afraid of figuring out what to do themselves? Hell their entire existence is defined and made up for them. Think your average paladin ever really forges anything new in the whole morality department? Forget that, they have detect evil to make sure they never have to decide anything. That's why when they get those tough decisions they just fall apart and cant think, blah blah do I kill the baby and save the 1000 people, blah blah, hey heres a thought, HAVE YOUR OWN THOUGHTS! I have made tons of decisions that they would find offensive, and yet I apologize for none of them. Know why? They are my decisions, not theirs. And if I start basing my decisions on what they thought was right, I would stop being me. Have I always made the perfect decision? No. Have I lived a life that serves the "greater good"? Nope. And you know what? I don't feel the slightest remorse. I don't owe them service and help just because I have skill and they don't! Of course that doesnt mean I have the right to bully them or right over their lives just cause I can take them, but that's another story. Destiny. BAH. You paladins annoy me to no end. Be thankful you can take a beating and heal me if I need it otherwise I wouldnt travel with your preachy asses. - Dominic, Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer Spoken like a person who watches all the angles without playing any. It's been said that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. Eventually, one has to choose what they believe. It's generally a decision that's made after much thought. It doesn't mean it's a perfect choice, but it's certainly better than living life on the sidelines. Conviction isn't weakness any more than it is strength. It's a choice. That's all. If your conviction is founded in something strong, then it too will be strong. If not, then it will be weak. A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. But it doesn't prove nothing either. Perhaps you should show a bit more gratitude to the people who risk their lives for your protection.
Stormbrand 06-17-07, 01:11 PM	Oh bulllcraaaaap! I have never heard such a crock in all my life! I've travelled with paladins and do you have any idea how many times they start talking about "destiny" and "Duty" and all those other words meaning they are too afraid of figuring out what to do themselves? Then you have a very limited view of paladins. The very acceptance of duty is deciding what to do with oneself. We believe there are better causes for us to serve than personal whims. Hell their entire existence is defined and made up for them. Think your average paladin ever really forges anything new in the whole morality department? Forget that, they have detect evil to make sure they never have to decide anything. You are a seer yourself, are you not? Then you understand the importance of knowledge and information in decision making. Our ability to see the darkness in hearts raises the question of how we should deal with this evil. We decide to strive for what is right. We decide that the safety of innocents is worth the danger we accept. We decide that there are meaningful causes in the world worthy of our service. That's why when they get those tough decisions they just fall apart and cant think, blah blah do I kill the baby and save the 1000 people, blah blah, hey heres a thought, HAVE YOUR OWN THOUGHTS! We do think for ourselves. There is much to be commended about straightforwardness. Simple does not mean stupid. In fact, one has to be a very clever man to be as simple as many paladins. I have made tons of decisions that they would find offensive, and yet I apologize for none of them. Know why? They are my decisions, not theirs. And if I start basing my decisions on what they thought was right, I would stop being me. And what of what you think is right? What of your own morality? Have I always made the perfect decision? No. Have I lived a life that serves the "greater good"? Nope. And you know what? I don't feel the slightest remorse. I don't owe them service and help just because I have skill and they don't! And what do you accomplish? My efforts lead to a better world, what do yours lead to? An ever-expanding collection of trinkets? Of course that doesnt mean I have the right to bully them or right over their lives just cause I can take them, but that's another story. Does that stop you from trying? My point is that you claim that you should not be treated in such a way, what of others? Who stops them from being bullied or having their lives dictated? So when a paladin stops you from doing something, consider the victim of your intended course, as it is likely that your actions will be harmful to others. Destiny. BAH. You paladins annoy me to no end. Be thankful you can take a beating and heal me if I need it otherwise I wouldnt travel with your preachy asses. - Dominic, Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer For a seer, you are remarkably ill-informed.
Magon 06-17-07, 02:51 PM	Yes, absolutely! To, as this sounds, re-write someone's soul and replace it with yours is the most vile sin I can imagine. Better to murder them with a poisoned blade after taking them forcefully than to destroy their very soul. I cannot imagine a situation that would justify this act, and if you yourself have performed it, I beseech you to seek atonement! there is a diffrince betwen the soul and the mind. also i would destroy nothing, only change it
Devil Gnasher 06-18-07, 03:03 AM	"Sir Ian, what would you think about Good aligned necromancers such as my self? Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse."
Kalai_Eljahn 06-18-07, 11:37 AM	Thank you for your courteous and helpful reply. I find your view genuinely alien, milady. For me it is the knowledge of what great heights an individual may climb to that girds my soul against the pain of seeing the depths we tend to sink to together. To what great heights may an individual climb? I am genuinely curious about this. What significance can a single, normal person have, either for the benefit of all or the destruction, that may not be fulfilled as well by another in the same group, or that I should not use for what I believe is right for a larger group -- even at the pain of the individual? You yourself have stated that you would choose the lesser of two evils, and yet I would doubt that you would accept the ruthless policies of th good philosopher of my homeland Machiavelli as an honorable way to operate. Also, as I have said, at such an arbitrary level, some depths of moral behavior do not pain my own soul at the least, a weakness on my part for its blindness. Perhaps you should heed the words of the philosopher Yeshua bin Yosef, who advised his students to love others as they loved themselves. An interesting philosophy, though I am not certain how to apply it. If this means letting as much pain come to them as I would to myself, from my recent experiences that would be a problem, since I keep seeking out pain like some fool adventurer. *She smiles* Ah, what circumstances force on one. But it is true, I can conceive of myself as an individual worthy of protection and separate from any group, except perhaps my family, and I am the last one bearing that name. Surely there is someone you care for? If so, try to see their face when you look at a stranger. I find that this helps me summon reserves of courtesy and patience that I did not believe I possessed. *smiles again* Reserves of courtesy and patience are my strength, my good Count; such a tactic would be more useful for my somewhat hot-headed druidic friend. Sadism... A deadly trap indeed. In all honest, this is a drive that I am hard-pressed to oppose, if compassion is truly so foreign to you. Perhaps you should dedicate some time to meditation on the nature of love, and how your goddess of love--Aphrodite?--would see her will carried out. If that does not help, you may be well-served by seeking out those stronger than yourself, so long as they are not evil themselves. Spend time with those whom you cannot control, and perhaps the joy of letting others simply be will come to you. You can see the handiwork of Eros all around you -- divorce, infidelity, unwanted orhpans and aborted children, stalking, pedophilia, sodomy, nymphomania, obsession, every perversion of lust imaginable. His will in love is not that of yours, I have little doubt, though he is also the god of love honest and reciprocated. Sadism and (currently irrelevant) lesbianism have both been Eros's legacy to the female line of Darcian since before our family was first established. I am hard pressed to oppose it as well, little though I wish to be slave to my desires. Your advice is optimistic; I am afraid pursuing that path could lead to serious problems. Spending time with those whom I cannot control at all makes me wish more to try and frustrated that I cannot. I have been tempted to use magical means to subdue my current companions in the past, but I know the risk entailed in breaking their trust. Again, I sincerely appreciate your taking the time to advise me in these matters, despite that I am obviously not a paladin. May the gods smile upon your lands. Carlynia Darcian Mine Keep in Mystallin [Out of character but in character, Kalai looks somewhat frustrated. "Jaren, shouldn't you be asking him for advice, since you are a paladin and you need advice?" Jaren looks somewhat startled, having not been quite as perceptive about the fact that they were near a computer, then shrugs slightly. "I suppose. But what should we ask about? There's quite a bit..." Kalai in response starts typing out a letter to Count Ian...the computer automatically translaets the Zepretan letters into Common.] Dear Count Ian, ["Okay, now write what's going on." Jaren takes the computer.] I am Jaren Kouj, knight of Nahara, spirit of the forest.. [pause. "He doesn't know Nahara." Edit.] [Kalai looks frustrated. "Forget this, let's just go talk to him. Normal format."] Jaren: Greetings, Lord Boydson. I am Jaren Kouj of Nahara and this is my squire and companion, Kalai Eljahn. Kalai: *glances at him* He is Sir Jaren Kouj, Knight of Nahara and Paladin of Nature. Nahara is the spirit of the forest which bears her name. Jaren: ^^' Indeed... Kalai: In any case, we've got a couple of situations we'd like advice on. Since we travel with a certain wizard the time/space issues are a bit messed up, at the moment we're not only typing on her computer but also in a couple of other worlds and times. Jaren: In one of these, we are fifteen years in the future of a parallel time stream. In our past, a member of this time stream named Korashe fled to ours and turned out to be Kalai's son. Due to an event over which we had no control, he was sent home, and so quite a few of my companions at the time elected to accompany Kalai and I to go back and find out what he had fled from, and protect him from that. Kalai: Long story short, we found him, the continent he's in is a polluted one which is currently suffering a severe drought and whose inhabitants are quite violent. Since he is half allemedusan -- that is, my race, aquatic shapeshifters widely mistrusted and extinct in that time stream except for two half-medusans -- he can't endure drought conditions or the particular type of pollution found there as easily as a human. The problem is that the danger he fled from wasn't on this continent, it was on the larger one where Jaren and I live. Jaren: The world we are from is on the brink of disaster and I fear that in Korashe's it has already fallen. The power of the deities working to keep the planet from being torn apart by tidal forces -- Kalai: -- between a black hole and a neutron star if that means anything to you -- Jaren: -- their power has been drastically weakened. We know the Kalai is dead in his time stream, and we are fairly certain that Korashe is my son, meaning I am dead as well. Kalai: Being what we are, allemedusan reproduction is too violent for a human to participate in safely, though since Korashe is half-human it was not predatory. Jaren: ...*slight bewildered pause* What are we asking advice for again? Kalai: The situation. Korashe, as far as we can tell, is from a doomed world. Now that the balance is broken it might be impossible to save that place. He does not know this. I don't know when it would happen or exactly what would happen. Jaren: Right now, many powerful entities have the capability to protect anyone who grants them power over their soul after death. I am pledged in loyalty to Nahara, but should the world's death ever come every soul shall be tormented and mutilated beyond repair. This is not something I can in good conscience allow to happen, but what I can do about it, I know not. Kalai: Deities of sufficient power can with some difficulty leave the plane, but every soul mortal and immortal is tied there, so that transporting them all out is not an option. Besides which few would be willing to abandon a place where there still seems hope, though by the time there seems none, we could do very little. ((Truly OOC note: Because of the way plots work in our written roleplaying format, DMPCs are not only not minded but inevitable. Everyone runs multiple characters (including minors, the most writing-inclined get into over a hundred, but I've got 5 main) and when we get tired of one plot who does the next is tossed around like a hot potato. I'm running this one. No one but my characters has any real tie to the place, but we have to do something, because otherwise it's unbearable now that we don't have our best writer at school, our D&D DM's handwriting is not pleasant, Sydua's (male) player's got a bit of a misconception over what we're supposed to do while we're just hanging out, and I get easily confused and take a while to recognize characters. Really I'm glad to be able to restrict them to characters I know unless they describe the new addition in a detailed and reasonable fashion. In truth I sometimes don't recognize my own characters when Sydua's player remembers them!))
Callista 06-18-07, 01:43 PM	Until now, nobody has taken much notice of the halfling woman, sitting at the side of the room, cross-legged on a chair made for humans; but now she stands, revealing that she’s short even for a halfling. The light reflects from her mithril chain mail. Her brown hair has been tied into a braid, and she carries a rapier. She waits politely for a break in the conversation before she stands on the chair and speaks. “My name is Kady Small. And before you ask, yes, I’m a paladin, too. I’ve had trouble convincing folk of that before, but that makes sense—after all, I’m not exactly the sword-swinging, heavy-armor type. And most paladins are a little taller.” She smiles wryly. “I’d like to say something, if no one minds. It mightn’t be very good, because I wasn’t always a paladin; and because I’m not very educated.” “A lot of you are sitting there, and talking in big, fancy words about morality and ethics and the gods; and there’s nothing wrong with that, but maybe it makes it a little easier to shift your focus away from the basic things that you felt in your hearts ever since you were called—helping others, defending people who can’t defend themselves, being an example. “Pride… I think that’s the biggest problem we face. We’re called by the forces of Good… we’re given special powers… we deal with dragons and demons and celestials. People look up to us. They see us as heroes, think we’re perfect and never make mistakes. When they see us, they see emissaries of the gods. And when we fight, there’s very little we can’t defeat, with Good itself on our side. “It’s easy to think you’re better than other people, that you can look down on them. That because you were called, and they weren’t, that you’re superior. That because you face evil without fear, you can expect them to be awed by you, even to serve you. “We don’t set out to be proud like that. But it’s easy to fall into, even when you have everything going for you, to keep you humble.” Kady is silent for a few moments, thinking, then takes a deep breath and smiles again. “Well, we halflings are quite fond of stories, so I might go on for a while. Just stop me if anyone starts going to sleep, or anything.” Seating herself on the chair again, Kady closes her eyes for a moment, gathering her thoughts. “My parents are merchants; and I was supposed to take up their trade. I wasn’t particularly fond of it; so I was glad when my little sister, who always had a good head for finances, stepped forward and offered to manage things. So I didn’t have to take up my parents’ trade; but I also didn’t have one of my own. “The city where I grew up is located in an interesting region of the world. For some reason, there are a great number of dragons here—chromatic and metallic, both. There are always rumors going around that one noble or another is a dragon in disguise. Naturally, we have a lot of paladins, too. Isn’t that the image people have of paladins, anyway—slay the evil dragon; rescue the princess? Once in a while, a chromatic will make trouble; and then there will be war, and the paladins in the thick of it. “So I grew up there; and I saw the Paladins; and I admired them. There was something about going out and protecting folks; about keeping things safe and orderly; that just resonated with me. And finally, when I knew my parents’ business was safe with my sister, I presented myself to their order and asked to join. “They laughed at me. I suppose it made sense, from their point of view. I imagine they have to deal with quite a lot of youngsters who want no more than glory and adventure. I was small and weak, even for a halfling; and I could barely even pick up a sword, much less do any damage with it! So they sent me away; but on the way out—I was crying, I’m ashamed to say—I met the captain of the city guard, and talked to him about how much I wanted to be a paladin. Of course he couldn’t help me; but he said he saw that I was graceful, and maybe they could train me instead. I accepted. “I learned to move quietly, to find traps, to make sure the bigger, clumsier men behind me wouldn’t come to harm. I was trained in dueling with a rapier; and I got the knack of throwing an opponent off his guard, and then striking—quick and deadly. I even learned to activate magical items that only a wizard could usually use. “Eventually, I joined a group of adventurers, all skilled people with good hearts, though many of them were flighty and undisciplined. We learned to work together; and our first dragon—a cocky young Blue—brought us to the attention of a powerful celestial. He became our patron. “After that, things seemed to escalate. As we gained skill, so the evil dragons seemed to multiply and become more and more dangerous. Eventually, we learned that a red dragon—possibly with demonic heritage—called Chrysanthium had united many of them under her banner. Innocent people were being killed or enslaved. My sister had to shut down trade outside the city; merchants were often attacked for their gold. “It was during the quest to bring down Chrystanthium that I finally accepted the call that had been tugging at me ever since I was a child. I suppose I’d come to believe that I really couldn’t be a paladin; that I really was too weak, too small. But I’d learned to overcome those things. It takes very little strength to use a light weapon like a rapier; and despite my size, I knew how to dart in and out of an opponent’s reach before he could even land a blow. “That was a strange night. We were in enemy territory, in great danger; and I spent the night in prayer. I felt as though I had finally found my place—as though I were a piece in some great puzzle, finally fitting where I was meant to be. “Our quest continued. I learned what it meant to be a paladin; learned to follow the knowledge in my mind and heart. Always to put others first; always to care about the innocent and helpless; always to be the last to retreat… I had a focus now, more than just being a good scout. I think I confused my teammates; they reacted with more than a few pranks. I still remember the healing potion that turned my skin a lovely shade of lavender! “But there was the problem. I was slowly beginning to think of myself as somehow better than them; because I was disciplined, and lived by a formal code; because I knew instinctively the nature of a man’s heart; because I could face even the most frightening dragon without flinching. “It wasn’t as though I treated them badly. They’re my friends and allies; their hearts are good, even though their methods are erratic. But I think I started to believe that I was special, irreplaceable, more important to the quest than they were. “And there’s the trap, you see? You’d think I would know humility. I’ve met the great metallic dragons—wiser, stronger, older than any halfling will ever be. All my life I’ve been smaller and weaker than anyone around me. And it took me ever so long to understand that being a paladin didn’t have much at all to do with joining a group; but with being a servant of Good and a keeper of order. “Finally we faced Chrysanthium herself. I have never seen such total evil in my life. She was a powerful creature… we barely survived the first blast of her breath. Three of the eight of us were barely standing. “I had obtained a magical item which could cancel the fury of her flames, and had been unable to ready it early enough for the first blast. I could have been prepared for the second; but I gambled that she would not be able to breathe again so soon, and rather than protecting my companions, I ran to attack. “I had, you see, grown to believe that my power, granted by Good itself, could vanquish this dragon… I had begun to make light of my companions’ contributions. So I took a chance—a small chance, I thought—and attacked instead of protecting the others. “I was wrong. The second wave of fire killed three of us. It would have killed one of my companions—a halfling with a talent for musical magic, and the one I had secretly been thinking of as the weakest member of the party—but I was able to use my speed and agility to cover her body with my own. She survived; I did not. “It is rare that one is allowed to so directly atone for one’s wrongs; but I was glad to have the opportunity. Dragon-fire is not nearly as painful as the guilt I felt knowing that my companions would die; and it was my fault.” Kady’s eyes are bright with tears; but she blinks them away and continues. “I had expected to wake in the afterlife; but instead I found myself in bed, in my mother’s house. I was told that the last few members of our group managed to kill Chrysanthium—barely—and that her treasure easily paid a cleric to call our souls back. I found myself regarded as a hero—much to my shame. “My friends, people whom I had judged to be inferior, easily forgave my misdeeds. They were more loving—better—than me. I had a lot to think about, after that. “The truth is, there’s nothing so very special about a paladin. People see us, and they admire us; and the things we’re called to do are dangerous and glorious and impossible for most people. But we’re called—empowered—by something so much greater than ourselves, aren’t we? I mean, we train; and we study; but anyone could do that. It’s the power of Good that’s in us that makes the difference. “There are plenty more people than paladins who make a real difference in the world—my companions, for example. But it’s the people with no real skill, who don’t know one end of a sword from the other, who make it all possible. “Those are the people who live normal lives; the people who are kind to their neighbors, who help the poor, who follow the laws and live honorably. There are ever so many more of those people than there are of paladins; and yet, without them, where would the world be? “That’s why we’re here. We’re here to make it possible for those people to live, to tip the balance towards Good. We protect them so that they can get on with the real work of changing the world. “Just one person mightn’t make much of a difference… but all of them, together; a peaceful society? That’s unstoppable. Greater than any dragon’s power. “My sister is one of those people. She can’t fight; and she’s educated in keeping accounts, not in theology. But all the same… she and others like her don’t leave the world the same as when they entered it. “She’s married now; and she has a child, a boy of ten, already showing signs of being as kind and honorable as any paladin. She’s taking care of my parents in their old age; and she listens to their wisdom. “The business is doing well, too; people will gladly deal with an honest merchant. She’s using some of the profits to support a home for orphaned girls; and she’s taken in some of the girls as apprentices. “Truth is, without people like my sister, there’s nothing the paladins can do against evil. Without the common people, there’d be no society to protect; no innocents to save. “Among the mortal servants of Good, the Paladin is both the greatest and the least. To see anyone as insignificant; to see yourself as greater than anyone else, is to start down the wrong path. “Even the greatest, kindest person can fall to pride. You have to know your own heart. Constantly examine yourself. If you don’t… you could end up causing a lot of harm.” Kady looks down for a few moments, embarrassed she’s gone on for such a long time. “Well, that’s all I wanted to say, I guess. I’ve made a lot of mistakes, and maybe someone here can learn from them.”
BoringInfoGuy 06-19-07, 01:04 AM	Example: 11th level Ex-paladin/10th level Assassin (yes, this is possible, using a couple splatbook feats allowing Hide and move silently to become class skills) meets all the prerequisites for blackguard, and chooses to do so. Now, there are only 2 major sources for Epic levels, the DMG, and the Epic Level Handbook (gee, imagine that). By the ELH, this player can immediately trade in all 11 levels of paladin for blackguard. The ex-paladin is now an Assassin 10/Blackguard 11. If you're going to act like you know it all, please don't insult our intelligence by pleading ignorant to what we're speaking of later. Believe me, if you say that something "can't be done" in D&D, you're almost always wrong. In other words, if you're gonna sit at the grown up table, stop making excuses for your inaccuracies, and accept that you made yourself look like a blathering idiot. If you're gonna start telling people they're wrong, admit when you get called out on it. In this instance, you were cited the rules (by someone else), and you STILL got it wrong. So, I'll refer you to your initial advice to me, far more aptly used here, and bid you good day, sir. If you had read the rest of my postings with Mathurian, you would've seen that I had already admitted to my mistake. If that is all you really wanted to say, then it's already been covered. So what then is the real purpose of your post? Here's some things you may want to consider for yourself. It's a very valid point you made that it was (by someone else) that quoted me the rules. All that you said was that a 21st level character can trade all of his paladin levels for BG levels. After making certain that it was me you were posting to, I checked the DMG, and reread the BG's ability to trade in paladin levels. Then I posted. Mathurian is the one who pointed out that the higher level trade rules were from the ELH. With that, I was able to borrow a copy, and look it up myself. What I found looked like it was the same limitation as the DMG, but at 21/20 instead of 11/10. Then I posted. Again, Mathurian is the one who pointed out the section that I had not read in the ELH, which states that the book only lists up to a certain level for space, but that is not to be considered an upper limit. I rechecked the ELH, found he was right. Then I posted. I do follow my own advice. So did Mathurian (unless he had those rules memorized). In that way, we were able to have an intelligent discussion, where I was able to gain a better understanding of the rules. What do I get from your post? A chiding that I should admit to my mistakes after I already have. Here is a question. Can you admit that you should have quoted the rule you were using? Either the rules from the ELH, or from page 206 of the DMG. (Just found this one). Regardless, I should not have written a post in such an arrogant manner. Really, I do apologize for that, and not just because I was wrong. It was more from frustrations in my personal life bleeding onto the boards.
Comus 06-19-07, 02:06 AM	Kady: You're right. Paladins aren't special in some way that makes us better than others. We're no more special than a wizard, or a member of a town guard, or a merchant, or a beggar. Every person is unique. But some people are better than others. There is an order to the world, a way it should be, and it is Evil that works against it. Anyone who fights for the cause of Evil is not only a fool and a menace, but is worse, by their very nature, than those who live their lives in the light of Good. Am I better than any other man who serves the cause of Good? No. They serve it by living in the world I help to protect, I serve it by finding the darkest, most hopeless situations and putting my life on the line. I have been in many hopeless battles, times and places where there was no hope to defeat the enemy. All I could do was to make victory costly for the enemy, to make them pay for every inch of ground in blood. I've managed to escape death so far. I have seen hundreds of allies perish, seen dozens of battles lost. All I can do is hope that by my action, Evil learned that good never gives up, even when there is no more hope to be had. But I diverge, and speak too much of myself. You are correct in what you say, as long as it is understood that Evil is the one thing that can make a man worse than another. Hm. Perhaps one final thing - you say that without the common people, we would have nothing to fight for. That isn't quite correct. There are two more things that are worthy, in my opinion. One's honor, and Spite. If the people were lost, killed by the forces of evil, I would still fight them, because I could not let them win. Perhaps I couldn't stop them, but I could not cede the field, either. And if I lost even my honor, I would still fight them, just for the sake of fighting evil, of looking your executioner in the eye and spitting in his face. - Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Hydryh 06-19-07, 11:16 AM	"Sir Ian, what would you think about Good aligned necromancers such as my self? This would depend upon two things: whether or not your magic involved the souls of the deceased, and what you used your powers and raised undead to do in the world. Because of its very nature, I typically find necromancy to be distasteful at best and vile at worst. However, the circumstances could change the scenario. For example, if you are in an isolated community that cannot receive outside aid for several months, and all of the able-bodied folk are dead or gone, and the community's food stores are running low, I would tolerate an action such as raising the bodies (only the bodies, unless the souls volunteered) of the community's deceased for the purpose of acquiring food, by tilling the fields or scouring the land for game. However, that is an extreme exception to the rule.
Hydryh 06-19-07, 12:35 PM	To what great heights may an individual climb? I am genuinely curious about this. What significance can a single, normal person have, either for the benefit of all or the destruction, that may not be fulfilled as well by another in the same group, or that I should not use for what I believe is right for a larger group -- even at the pain of the individual? You yourself have stated that you would choose the lesser of two evils, and yet I would doubt that you would accept the ruthless policies of th good philosopher of my homeland Machiavelli as an honorable way to operate. Also, as I have said, at such an arbitrary level, some depths of moral behavior do not pain my own soul at the least, a weakness on my part for its blindness. Firstly, your definition of "normal" and mine may not be the same. However, I will assume that you refer to those without great martial prowess, or magic singing in their veins, or the blood of demons or angels in their family. *smiles* In particular, let us say that you mean Luc deMornay, the grown son of one of the farmers living outside of Farrow town. Luc is a friendly lad with a quick smile, but that is all that commends him to be noticed, unless one is learned in the ways of carrot farming. There will likely--and I do mean likely, for it has happened to me and several people I know, not to mention great figures out of history--come a day when humble Luc will shape the world. For his part, it will likely be a small thing. Perhaps he will offer a cup of water to a thirsty messenger, or critique a bard's latest sonnet. It may be so small as a flash of his smile. But one day, a simple action like that may enable the messenger to push that little bit harder, and get to the general in time to halt a war. Or the bard will go on to compose lines of verse to melt a tyrant's heart. Perhaps his smile will prevent a young woman from taking her life. More likely, the smile will inspire a baker to be more generous with the berries in his tarts, which will turn a child's ordinary day into a bright memory that will (with other memories, of course, often brought into life by people like Luc) steer their heart to Good, rather than Evil--an important thing indeed, when the child grows into a mighty archmagus. If Luc withheld these small kindnesses, the world might be a very different, darker place within his own lifetime. Perhaps placing, say, myself, in Luc's shoes would not make any difference. Perhaps we would make all the same choices, with all the same consequences. But perhaps not--perhaps there is a deeply sad maiden who could be saved by a kind farmer boy's smile, rather than the smile of a doddering old Count. ((Hydryh: Doddering, he says! :rolleyes: You're what, fifty? Ian: None of your business, young man. I was making a point.)) *ahem* As for your question regarding the greater Good, that is the path to take when one must choose between what is best for many, and what is best for a few. This does not give you leave to be a tyrant, however--you can choose only for yourself and those who are willing to follow you, or unable to choose for themselves. I do not know this Machiavelli, but by the sound of your words, I doubt we would agree on much. Good ideas are Good only so long as goodness remains a priority for those carrying out the idea. An interesting philosophy, though I am not certain how to apply it. If this means letting as much pain come to them as I would to myself, from my recent experiences that would be a problem, since I keep seeking out pain like some fool adventurer. *She smiles* Ah, what circumstances force on one. But it is true, I can conceive of myself as an individual worthy of protection and separate from any group, except perhaps my family, and I am the last one bearing that name. Precisely! Just as you are worthy of being protected, so are others. And as for pain, it is more a matter of shielding them from it, as you would normally wish to be shielded, despite your current misadventures. *smiles again* Reserves of courtesy and patience are my strength, my good Count; such a tactic would be more useful for my somewhat hot-headed druidic friend. Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding. I had thought that your destructive actions were motivated by frustration or anger at the individuals you had been harming. You can see the handiwork of Eros all around you -- divorce, infidelity, unwanted orhpans and aborted children, stalking, pedophilia, sodomy, nymphomania, obsession, every perversion of lust imaginable. His will in love is not that of yours, I have little doubt, though he is also the god of love honest and reciprocated. Sadism and (currently irrelevant) lesbianism have both been Eros's legacy to the female line of Darcian since before our family was first established. I am hard pressed to oppose it as well, little though I wish to be slave to my desires. It seems I am destined to be forever at odds with the gods. In my eyes, the majority of the perversions you list have little-to-nothing to do with love, and those that have any connection have been twisted by Evil, Chaos, or both. As you have the blood of that... entity flowing through your veins, overcoming your inclination towards sadism may be impossible. If it is possible at all, I would urge you to fight it. If not... Well, it makes me uncomfortable to speak of such things, but as I understand it, there are those who seek out sadists, that they may offer themselves up as a form of willing victim. If it is impossible to overcome your deity's impulses, you may wish to seek out one of these individuals, that you might sate your needs upon them rather than an innocent. Your advice is optimistic; I am afraid pursuing that path could lead to serious problems. Spending time with those whom I cannot control at all makes me wish more to try and frustrated that I cannot. I have been tempted to use magical means to subdue my current companions in the past, but I know the risk entailed in breaking their trust. Again, I sincerely appreciate your taking the time to advise me in these matters, despite that I am obviously not a paladin. May the gods smile upon your lands. Carlynia Darcian Mine Keep in Mystallin I only wish I could be of more help, milady. May all the good gods keep you. Jaren: Greetings, Lord Boydson. I am Jaren Kouj of Nahara and this is my squire and companion, Kalai Eljahn. Kalai: *glances at him* He is Sir Jaren Kouj, Knight of Nahara and Paladin of Nature. Nahara is the spirit of the forest which bears her name. Jaren: ^^' Indeed... Kalai: In any case, we've got a couple of situations we'd like advice on. Since we travel with a certain wizard the time/space issues are a bit messed up, at the moment we're not only typing on her computer but also in a couple of other worlds and times. Jaren: In one of these, we are fifteen years in the future of a parallel time stream. In our past, a member of this time stream named Korashe fled to ours and turned out to be Kalai's son. Due to an event over which we had no control, he was sent home, and so quite a few of my companions at the time elected to accompany Kalai and I to go back and find out what he had fled from, and protect him from that. Kalai: Long story short, we found him, the continent he's in is a polluted one which is currently suffering a severe drought and whose inhabitants are quite violent. Since he is half allemedusan -- that is, my race, aquatic shapeshifters widely mistrusted and extinct in that time stream except for two half-medusans -- he can't endure drought conditions or the particular type of pollution found there as easily as a human. The problem is that the danger he fled from wasn't on this continent, it was on the larger one where Jaren and I live. Jaren: The world we are from is on the brink of disaster and I fear that in Korashe's it has already fallen. The power of the deities working to keep the planet from being torn apart by tidal forces -- Kalai: -- between a black hole and a neutron star if that means anything to you -- Jaren: -- their power has been drastically weakened. We know the Kalai is dead in his time stream, and we are fairly certain that Korashe is my son, meaning I am dead as well. Kalai: Being what we are, allemedusan reproduction is too violent for a human to participate in safely, though since Korashe is half-human it was not predatory. Jaren: ...*slight bewildered pause* What are we asking advice for again? Kalai: The situation. Korashe, as far as we can tell, is from a doomed world. Now that the balance is broken it might be impossible to save that place. He does not know this. I don't know when it would happen or exactly what would happen. Jaren: Right now, many powerful entities have the capability to protect anyone who grants them power over their soul after death. I am pledged in loyalty to Nahara, but should the world's death ever come every soul shall be tormented and mutilated beyond repair. This is not something I can in good conscience allow to happen, but what I can do about it, I know not. Kalai: Deities of sufficient power can with some difficulty leave the plane, but every soul mortal and immortal is tied there, so that transporting them all out is not an option. Besides which few would be willing to abandon a place where there still seems hope, though by the time there seems none, we could do very little. *Hydryh leans over to Ian's ear, translating terms such as "neutron star" for him.* Well, insofar as it makes a difference, congratulations (in advance...?) on your son, good sir and lady. To the matter at hand: I would recommend you share the truth, or at the least your best understanding of the truth, with your son. If you are fortunate, he and others will flee his dying world for yours. You mention that the souls of the dead may not be removed from the plane, but what of Time? Perhaps those souls and gods of the dying world that are not too far gone could follow you, as well? The addition of more (albeit weakened) gods might, I hope, stave off the death of your world. That is of course under the assumption that your world cannot be saved by mortal means. I pray that that assumption is wrong. So, in short: tell Korashe as much truth as you can, and try to save as much of his world as you can. They say that hindsight is flawless; perhaps someone in his time knows what they should have done, and you yet may. My prayers go with you all, my friends. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E. ((Truly OOC note: Because of the way plots work in our written roleplaying format, DMPCs are not only not minded but inevitable. Everyone runs multiple characters (including minors, the most writing-inclined get into over a hundred, but I've got 5 main) and when we get tired of one plot who does the next is tossed around like a hot potato. I'm running this one. No one but my characters has any real tie to the place, but we have to do something, because otherwise it's unbearable now that we don't have our best writer at school, our D&D DM's handwriting is not pleasant, Sydua's (male) player's got a bit of a misconception over what we're supposed to do while we're just hanging out, and I get easily confused and take a while to recognize characters. Really I'm glad to be able to restrict them to characters I know unless they describe the new addition in a detailed and reasonable fashion. In truth I sometimes don't recognize my own characters when Sydua's player remembers them!)) ((Wow! No wonder things are so twisted! Well, if nothing else, at least you have a lot of story variety going on. I don't know how I'd do in that kind of setup, but I hope things get straightened out for you!))
Hydryh 06-19-07, 01:02 PM	((snip)) *Ian listens quietly until Kady has finished, then stands and claps his gauntlets together in thunderous, heartfelt applause. He reaches for his barely-touched goblet of wine and gestures that the servers refill everyone's drinks.* Lady Small, you do the world a disservice, to be so shy! *Ian turns to address everyone gathered.* We should all of us, whether we have need in this moment or not, carve Lady Small's words upon our hearts. Pride drives many a tyrant, and in turn can lead us off the hard road of the paladin to other roads; that of the fool, or even the abominable blackguard. In this moment, I am proud of only two things: my family, and that fact that I know people such as you all. I pray that we may all remember Lady Small's words, and be better people for it. *Ian thrusts his goblet in the air.* To our sister, the Lady Kady Small, truly the wisest one among us all! *Ian drains his goblet in one go, then looks over the rim at Kady with a mischievous twinkle in his eye.* But don't let that go to your head!
darkneolink 06-19-07, 01:18 PM	*Sir Igneo raises his goblet It's true what you speak miss Kady it's a wise man the one who said that the best of the things comes in a small... yet practical package *He smiles at her If only the young and naive paladins could hear yout brave words... we eouldn't have so many blackguards around... It fills me with joy to see so much love for the cause of good in this building
maharai23 06-19-07, 02:48 PM	If you had read the rest of my postings with Mathurian, you would've seen that I had already admitted to my mistake. If that is all you really wanted to say, then it's already been covered. So what then is the real purpose of your post? Here's some things you may want to consider for yourself. It's a very valid point you made that it was (by someone else) that quoted me the rules. All that you said was that a 21st level character can trade all of his paladin levels for BG levels. After making certain that it was me you were posting to, I checked the DMG, and reread the BG's ability to trade in paladin levels. Then I posted. I can understand that comprehensive knowledge of all books is unattainable, but try to refrain from acting like you know it all until you actually do. As I've seen on a notable sig around here, the internet is not an excuse to defenestrate civility. Mathurian is the one who pointed out that the higher level trade rules were from the ELH. With that, I was able to borrow a copy, and look it up myself. What I found looked like it was the same limitation as the DMG, but at 21/20 instead of 11/10. Then I posted. In all fairness, the trade rules are in the DMG entry for Blackguard. The ELH and p. 206 of the DMG only show a level progression beyond 10, allowing for the original esablished rule to widen its scope. That's more a semantic issue than anything else, though. The missing piece of information was in that location, along with the DMG. Again, Mathurian is the one who pointed out the section that I had not read in the ELH, which states that the book only lists up to a certain level for space, but that is not to be considered an upper limit. I rechecked the ELH, found he was right. Then I posted. Which is actually incomplete information. As listed in my previous example, there's a distinction between character and class level. As long as you're a 21st level character, and at least 11 of those are ex-paladin, you can trade them all in. Hence, my example of the 11th level ex-paladin/10th level assassin. Thus, the upper level limit that is pointed out to not exist never even comes into play. You can do it with 11 levels of paladin, and 10 levels of anything else. Better yet, by the trade in rules, the ex-paladin can do it immediately, without waiting for a level up (provided he meets all requirements of the class). In fact, the entry specifically gives such an example. That means maxing out this prestige class can be as simple as signing on the line. I do follow my own advice. So did Mathurian (unless he had those rules memorized). In that way, we were able to have an intelligent discussion, where I was able to gain a better understanding of the rules. The advice of yours that I was referring to was: Never bother arguing with me unless you take the time to read the material first. Otherwise you're wasting my time and yours. What do I get from your post? A chiding that I should admit to my mistakes after I already have. Here is a question. Can you admit that you should have quoted the rule you were using? Either the rules from the ELH, or from page 206 of the DMG. (Just found this one). Regardless, I should not have written a post in such an arrogant manner. Really, I do apologize for that, and not just because I was wrong. It was more from frustrations in my personal life bleeding onto the boards. Because it was core. And because I don't check the board every day. I have one of those personal lives too, and sometimes it does preclude checkin daily for responses. Every rule I used was from the DMG. I cited 21st level, which should have tipped someone into either looking at epic, or asking for clarification. I DO expect people to know core information when dealing with me. ESPECIALLY when attempting to correct me. And the manner in which you did it dictated the manner of my response, which was still a great deal more measured than yours. While I appreciate Mathurian showed my posts correct in my absence, we shouldn't have to cite Core here. I can certainly see NON-core citing... And as soon as I noticed your post, I responded with applicable core and non core books for the information provided. Had you been a bit more polite and a bit less...well, it doesn't need going into..., you'd have likely gotten the answer with an air of friendliness to it. Other than replying a bit slow, I fail to see exactly what I did that was incorrect here. Well, I did rise to the bait, and I'll try to work on that in the future. However, I do understand that real-world stress can have an effect on people. For what its worth, I hope that situation has improved. As for the original posts made... No real harm, no real foul. That's the last I intend to mention it.
Nevercme 06-19-07, 03:48 PM	(Elf walks in the door. From his skeletal minion you can easily see him as a necromancer. It does not help that their is something faintly wrong about him that you can't really see. He also seems to have a righteuous aura about him which seems to conflict with his skeletal fingers and deeply inset eyes.) Wow... (attempts to whistle but fails miserably) So many people. 1... 2... oops forgot you... Anyway what is the idea on an elf being a necromancer and a paladin? He only raises the dead with the dead's permission (before they die speak with dead spell etc.). It is not against the law so it doesn't break his code of conduct. And don't expect me to finish this list at any point in time... (goes back to counting)
Maekrix_Waere 06-19-07, 06:17 PM	(Done with OOC, raise your issue IC - which means no reference to Dungeon Master, then I will answer). What reference to the Dungeon Master? You mean the "I would punish..." sentences? Replace them with "I would expect punishment to fall upon..." sentences.
Devil Gnasher 06-19-07, 08:06 PM	This would depend upon two things: whether or not your magic involved the souls of the deceased, and what you used your powers and raised undead to do in the world. Because of its very nature, I typically find necromancy to be distasteful at best and vile at worst. However, the circumstances could change the scenario. For example, if you are in an isolated community that cannot receive outside aid for several months, and all of the able-bodied folk are dead or gone, and the community's food stores are running low, I would tolerate an action such as raising the bodies (only the bodies, unless the souls volunteered) of the community's deceased for the purpose of acquiring food, by tilling the fields or scouring the land for game. However, that is an extreme exception to the rule. "This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=830680) is the form of necromancy I was speaking of. Not all necromancy is used to create the undead. So, do you more informed right now about the necromantic sciences?"
Hydryh 06-20-07, 12:04 AM	"This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=830680) is the form of necromancy I was speaking of. Not all necromancy is used to create the undead. So, do you more informed right now about the necromantic sciences?" This is no type of necromancy I have encountered, but it is promising. I applaud your efforts to raise this school of magic into the light of Goodness.
Devil Gnasher 06-20-07, 12:27 AM	This is no type of necromancy I have encountered, but it is promising. I applaud your efforts to raise this school of magic into the light of Goodness. "I think of it as restoring the school back to its proper glory, when all healing was necromantic and the school was not universally condemned. In fact a consecrated knight's (I'm using this word to include the both of us) lay on hands could have been considered a necromantic effect. The gods of Good, Neutrality and Evil all courted necromancers equally and fought over them. They bestowed upon necromancers familiars and extra planar servants. In those days it was not uncommon to find Lawful Good necromancers with Archon familiars."
Thegans 06-20-07, 01:10 AM	A boy dressed in tatered and worn out clothing approaches. "The names Simul Orbus and before I ask my questions I would like to mention a few things. First off I am hidding my appearance and have a rather odd heritage. Second I despise you and would probably attempt to kill you if this was not a neutral ground. That is assuming that your rank as baron is inherited. If not then I apologise for my previous statement," Simul said. "The first thing I am wondering is why a paladin? There are thousands of combinations of classes that allow you to persue the same goals with less restrictions and some of which could cause you to turn into a good aligned outsider," Simul said. "I have often heard that a paladin is suppouse to protect the weak. So why is it that the nation I came from has such poverty and had so many orphans living in the streets when it was being ruled by a paladin king?" Simul said, " I will skip the details of how the Adandoned lead a coup against the king recently and took over, mostly because no one else but the other orphans and the princess. The one noble to actually have out respect knows. Well other than those I told but you still don't know its name." "There has been a question many of the other Adandoned have asked me. Why does good make it so hard for those at the lowest point in existence to reach a better point in it when evil will be willing to aid anyone? I wll take one of our new members Lily as an example. She wanted to stop begging so she tried to get a job. She was told she had no skills. When she tried to get someone to train her they said she smelled too badly and that since she was an orphan she was probably a thief also. Finally when she tried to get help from other places she was constantly turned down because they viewed her as not worth helping. Simply because she had nothing. She was found by the Adandoned shorly after selling her soul to a devil a minion of Glasya. Now she no longer has to worry about starving to death, has a group of allies that would instantly kill the traitor that tried to wrong her if that ever happend from within the Abandoned, and because of a special deal we have with Glasya a relatively happy afterlife out of the blood war unless she decides she wants to," Simul said, "Also before you say I am contradicting my I hate nobility statement the only person in Baator that would actually qualify as nobility is Asmodeous since none of the archdevils including Glasya actually inherited their positions. Although I do have to say I despise Levistus and if I had to chose between letting a person that inherited a throne or one of his cleric live. I would unfortunately have to let the throne inheritor live." "My next question has to do with the previous question. Why does supernatual evil always seem to be more active then supernatural good?" Simul asked. "Finally assuming it were even possible. If there was a civil war in the lawful good Celestia for some reason that lead to an outer planalar war between the forces of good and the forces of law which side would you remain loyal to good or law?" Simul asked, "Wait a minute that. No wait it would take too long." "Now that I think about it I have two more question. If there was a threat great enough that it caused a cease fire and a temporary but possibly long aliance between the nine allignements in oreder to face the new threat. Would the code of paladins still function as it is or would it change? For example if the threat was from the far realm would will not associate with evil beings be changed to will not associate with alienists and would a paladin can not commit evil acts be changed to an paladin can not commit unnatural acts?" Simul said, " Then again the unnatural acts would not change much since good people usually consider evil acts unnatural." "Finally when people mention darkness and light are they using medaphors because as far as I have seen darkness can do nothing while the light can blind you and in some worlds its believed to somehow cause diseases, I mean really saying tempted by darkness is basically the same as saying that their tempted by invisiblity?" Simul said. "That is all I have to say and ask so far," Simul said.
Devil Gnasher 06-20-07, 02:18 AM	A boy dressed in tatered and worn out clothing approaches. "The names Simul Orbus and before I ask my questions I would like to mention a few things. First off I am hidding my appearance and have a rather odd heritage. Second I despise you and would probably attempt to kill you if this was not a neutral ground. That is assuming that your rank as baron is inherited. If not then I apologise for my previous statement," Simul said. "The first thing I am wondering is why a paladin? There are thousands of combinations of classes that allow you to persue the same goals with less restrictions and some of which could cause you to turn into a good aligned outsider," Simul said. "I have often heard that a paladin is suppouse to protect the weak. So why is it that the nation I came from has such poverty and had so many orphans living in the streets when it was being ruled by a paladin king?" Simul said, " I will skip the details of how the Adandoned lead a coup against the king recently and took over, mostly because no one else but the other orphans and the princess. The one noble to actually have out respect knows. Well other than those I told but you still don't know its name." "There has been a question many of the other Adandoned have asked me. Why does good make it so hard for those at the lowest point in existence to reach a better point in it when evil will be willing to aid anyone? I wll take one of our new members Lily as an example. She wanted to stop begging so she tried to get a job. She was told she had no skills. When she tried to get someone to train her they said she smelled too badly and that since she was an orphan she was probably a thief also. Finally when she tried to get help from other places she was constantly turned down because they viewed her as not worth helping. Simply because she had nothing. She was found by the Adandoned shorly after selling her soul to a devil a minion of Glasya. Now she no longer has to worry about starving to death, has a group of allies that would instantly kill the traitor that tried to wrong her if that ever happend from within the Abandoned, and because of a special deal we have with Glasya a relatively happy afterlife out of the blood war unless she decides she wants to," Simul said, "Also before you say I am contradicting my I hate nobility statement the only person in Baator that would actually qualify as nobility is Asmodeous since none of the archdevils including Glasya actually inherited their positions. Although I do have to say I despise Levistus and if I had to chose between letting a person that inherited a throne or one of his cleric live. I would unfortunately have to let the throne inheritor live." "My next question has to do with the previous question. Why does supernatual evil always seem to be more active then supernatural good?" Simul asked. "Finally assuming it were even possible. If there was a civil war in the lawful good Celestia for some reason that lead to an outer planalar war between the forces of good and the forces of law which side would you remain loyal to good or law?" Simul asked, "Wait a minute that. No wait it would take too long." "Now that I think about it I have two more question. If there was a threat great enough that it caused a cease fire and a temporary but possibly long aliance between the nine allignements in oreder to face the new threat. Would the code of paladins still function as it is or would it change? For example if the threat was from the far realm would will not associate with evil beings be changed to will not associate with alienists and would a paladin can not commit evil acts be changed to an paladin can not commit unnatural acts?" Simul said, " Then again the unnatural acts would not change much since good people usually consider evil acts unnatural." "Finally when people mention darkness and light are they using medaphors because as far as I have seen darkness can do nothing while the light can blind you and in some worlds its believed to somehow cause diseases, I mean really saying tempted by darkness is basically the same as saying that their tempted by invisiblity?" Simul said. "That is all I have to say and ask so far," Simul said. "Okay, I'll give my opinion first, then Ian will answer you second (or whenever he gets to it). Got it? Good boy, now don‘t get upset with me. On a planet called "Earth" they have what they call the "Peter Principle". It states that "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence." This kingly paladin you talk about must have been good at his previous jobs so every one naturaly assumed that he'd make a good king. As king this otherwise good man screwed up and made things worse by mistake. Sorry, but that's the way every world works. That's no reason to sell your soul. -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse. P.S. I hope this doesn't upset you Sir Ian. As a champion of both Good and Chaos I am honor bound to respect the property (your domain at which this discussion is being held) and liberty (including your right to answer questions like this) of others. I just don't want to step on any one's toes right now."
Hydryh 06-20-07, 11:32 AM	A boy dressed in tatered and worn out clothing approaches. "The names Simul Orbus and before I ask my questions I would like to mention a few things. First off I am hidding my appearance and have a rather odd heritage. Second I despise you and would probably attempt to kill you if this was not a neutral ground. That is assuming that your rank as baron is inherited. If not then I apologise for my previous statement," Simul said. I am a Count, not a Baron, lad. And yes, I did inherit the title, when my elder brother Rammoth was disowned. "The first thing I am wondering is why a paladin? There are thousands of combinations of classes that allow you to persue the same goals with less restrictions and some of which could cause you to turn into a good aligned outsider," Simul said. Firstly, I did not choose the path of the paladin--I was chosen for it. You seem to think, as many do, that we are akin to wizards, who study and train their minds to grasp the intricacies of magic. In fact we are much more like sorcerers, who are born with magic in their blood. We can choose not to heed the call, or to turn from it, but it is never silent, from the first day we are called. As for becoming an outsider, I was born a human and hope to die as one; becoming something else holds no appeal to me. "I have often heard that a paladin is suppouse to protect the weak. So why is it that the nation I came from has such poverty and had so many orphans living in the streets when it was being ruled by a paladin king?" Simul said, " I will skip the details of how the Adandoned lead a coup against the king recently and took over, mostly because no one else but the other orphans and the princess. The one noble to actually have out respect knows. Well other than those I told but you still don't know its name." I would have to assume that he was either a poor paladin, a poor king, or both. Being called to combat evil does not make us perfect, or even better than a normal person. To judge paladins as a whole based on the failings of your king is quite small-minded, I must say. "There has been a question many of the other Adandoned have asked me. Why does good make it so hard for those at the lowest point in existence to reach a better point in it when evil will be willing to aid anyone? I wll take one of our new members Lily as an example. She wanted to stop begging so she tried to get a job. She was told she had no skills. When she tried to get someone to train her they said she smelled too badly and that since she was an orphan she was probably a thief also. Finally when she tried to get help from other places she was constantly turned down because they viewed her as not worth helping. Simply because she had nothing. She was found by the Adandoned shorly after selling her soul to a devil a minion of Glasya. Now she no longer has to worry about starving to death, has a group of allies that would instantly kill the traitor that tried to wrong her if that ever happend from within the Abandoned, and because of a special deal we have with Glasya a relatively happy afterlife out of the blood war unless she decides she wants to," Simul said, "Also before you say I am contradicting my I hate nobility statement the only person in Baator that would actually qualify as nobility is Asmodeous since none of the archdevils including Glasya actually inherited their positions. Although I do have to say I despise Levistus and if I had to chose between letting a person that inherited a throne or one of his cleric live. I would unfortunately have to let the throne inheritor live." I heard no descriptions of Good, only indifference. True Good does not turn a blind eye to the suffering of innocents, as your friend likely was before she made her pact with evil. An employer with Good in his heart would have taken Lily in and given her a chance. Also, do not think that because Evil has thrown your friend a few boons in the short term, that she will not suffer later. That is ever the way of Evil: to hold out sweets in one hand while the other waits in the shadows with a poisoned dagger. "My next question has to do with the previous question. Why does supernatual evil always seem to be more active then supernatural good?" Simul asked. This is not a question I am equipped to answer, my belligerent friend. You would have to as a cleric, or more likely the gods themselves. "Finally assuming it were even possible. If there was a civil war in the lawful good Celestia for some reason that lead to an outer planalar war between the forces of good and the forces of law which side would you remain loyal to good or law?" Simul asked, "Wait a minute that. No wait it would take too long." If nothing else, you do at least have an active imagination. If there was such a war, and if I could do naught to stop it, and if I was forced to fight on one side or the other, I would choose Good over Law. I do hope that did not take too long? "Now that I think about it I have two more question. If there was a threat great enough that it caused a cease fire and a temporary but possibly long aliance between the nine allignements in oreder to face the new threat. Would the code of paladins still function as it is or would it change? For example if the threat was from the far realm would will not associate with evil beings be changed to will not associate with alienists and would a paladin can not commit evil acts be changed to an paladin can not commit unnatural acts?" Simul said, " Then again the unnatural acts would not change much since good people usually consider evil acts unnatural." The nature of a true paladin is unchanging: we fight to destroy evil and defend good. The only time in legend that Good and Evil, Law and Chaos ever fought together was during the God War, when the Destroyer threatened to end all things-- ((Hydryh: He's referencing the history of his world; don't mind him.)) --and the legends do not speak of paladins in particular. I would assume, however, that paladins of those dark days had as little to do with Evil as possible. Without threatening the efforts to hold off the Destroyer, of course. I do know that that was the only time in legend that Hieroneous, Kord, Hextor, and Gruumsh ever took to the field on the same side. By that example, I would think that the ancient paladins cooperated as far as was necessary, and no farther. "Finally when people mention darkness and light are they using medaphors because as far as I have seen darkness can do nothing while the light can blind you and in some worlds its believed to somehow cause diseases, I mean really saying tempted by darkness is basically the same as saying that their tempted by invisiblity?" Simul said. "That is all I have to say and ask so far," Simul said. Yes, darkness and light are metaphorical in reference to Evil and Good. The reason for this is that most Evil creatures, such as vampires, prefer or require darkness. As more evil is abroad int the night than the day, darkness and evil were tied together, leaving good and day to join. Despite your aggressive tone, I hope I have helped you to understand what we paladins are. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E.
Hydryh 06-20-07, 11:36 AM	P.S. I hope this doesn't upset you Sir Ian. As a champion of both Good and Chaos I am honor bound to respect the property (your domain at which this discussion is being held) and liberty (including your right to answer questions like this) of others. I just don't want to step on any one's toes right now." Certainly, Sir Barthold. Your contributions are always welcome. In fact, my wife Jessica chided me for the harsh tone I took with you earlier! *Ian murmers to himself* Now if only she could be so generous with my former pupil...
Nevercme 06-20-07, 12:53 PM	"That is all I have to say and ask so far," Simul said. My my Simul. Someone has definately had a bad few years or, in referance to your heritage, decades. First off, paladins as a whole are more often chosen for their duty, not the other way around. Second off, there are multiple ways to protect as I certainly know. I am a paladin who provides undead to fight for my nation in addition to farming. As to your friend finding no employers, they were probably more of a lawful neutral sort instead of a lawful good sort. They saw an orphan who has had no training which meant accidents and money loss. If they had been good they would have taken her in and given her food and a roof over her head. Also, evil acts more, because they are always looking for new recruits, against good and other evils. As to your law vs. good question most good-aligned paladins would choose good as law can be evil. The code of paladins would still function, but most codes dictate that you should not, under normal circumstances, work with evil, but the threat is to destroy all. As all includes innocents, the good thing to do would be to fight this other evil. Since all would include evil, evil would help you fight the threat. As too darkness and evil, the Good Count Ian has already answered this. I would have you be aware, however, that good can be dark and light can be evil. Sorry to take your stage Count Ian, but I felt the need to give my two coppers on this subject.
BloodDragon 06-20-07, 01:45 PM	*Tapping his finger against the table top* Does it not bother you paladins that you rely on your Gods faith and bestow powers more then your own skill and wit? A skilled Fighter, Skirmisher, or Ranger would be on the same level of skill provided they are just as seasoned (same level) as yourselves. The only difference is that they have a choice in what they wish to do with their lives. The only code of conduct they follow is the one they create for themselves. Yes there are some quite unsavoury characters out in the wolrd. However many warriors, and even wizards or trap smiths, I have met have just as many good intentions. Many may have done just as much, if not more, good deeds then any single paladin. Is relying on your God like a crutch really that worth the ability to wave your shiney sword around like a badge while you could rely on your own skill to help people and “Do it in the name of -Your god-” Instead of him lending a helping hand all the time? *Folding his arms behind his head and leaning back in his chair.* The most devout are indeed rewarded. However a good person is rewarded just the same. Good Gods don’t play favourites because everyone who does not commit evil is Equal in their eyes. Would you not agree?
Nevercme 06-20-07, 02:44 PM	*Tapping his finger against the table top* Does it not bother you paladins that you rely on your Gods faith and bestow powers more then your own skill and wit? Not all Paladins rely on a god. I for one rely on no god, but rely on good and goodly souls. All Good Gods work towards good, correct? Paladins have their choices. I have chosen to use the art that is most commonly used against the goodly. I am also surprised at your thoughts. We are more along the lines of a crutch for the Gods. Without are belief, where would they be. Even if this was not true, it would still be a partnership. The most devout are not always rewarded, as an Archbishop may be devout, but might have accomplished nothing truly great for his God. Paladins rely on whatever they need to to combat evil. For some, this is wit, others, evil's stupidity.
Thegans 06-20-07, 02:49 PM	I am a Count, not a Baron, lad. And yes, I did inherit the title, when my elder brother Rammoth was disowned. "Actually I was listening in before I came. I remember you calling yourself a count although that may have simply beeen a mistake," Simul said. Firstly, I did not choose the path of the paladin--I was chosen for it. You seem to think, as many do, that we are akin to wizards, who study and train their minds to grasp the intricacies of magic. In fact we are much more like sorcerers, who are born with magic in their blood. We can choose not to heed the call, or to turn from it, but it is never silent, from the first day we are called. As for becoming an outsider, I was born a human and hope to die as one; becoming something else holds no appeal to me. "I know that a paladin is closer to a sorcerer than a wizard but certain restrictions just seem odd. I have heard that in most cases a paladin that take another class can never increase there abilities as a paladin. This seemed odd to me because there are classess that literally fuse a persons body with the energy of their alignment, yet if a paladin decided to train in one of these classes they would never be able to advance as a paladin any longer," Simul said. I would have to assume that he was either a poor paladin, a poor king, or both. Being called to combat evil does not make us perfect, or even better than a normal person. To judge paladins as a whole based on the failings of your king is quite small-minded, I must say. "I am not judging paladins as a whole. If I believed that all paladins were like him that would mean that I believe that all paladins will inherit a kingdom and to be honest there are not enough kingdoms for that," Simul said. I heard no descriptions of Good, only indifference. True Good does not turn a blind eye to the suffering of innocents, as your friend likely was before she made her pact with evil. An employer with Good in his heart would have taken Lily in and given her a chance. Also, do not think that because Evil has thrown your friend a few boons in the short term, that she will not suffer later. That is ever the way of Evil: to hold out sweets in one hand while the other waits in the shadows with a poisoned dagger. "That's one of the things I don't like about good people they are usually able to stay good despite indifference simply because once every two month they drop of a piece of bread at a local charity,which is a scam, or simply avoid doing evil things," Simul said. "As for her suffering later they say nothing united like a common enemy and I am confident that Glasya will keep her word because of a few things mainly her lawful alignment and some benefits from having a very strange heritage. I assume you do not know much about the interworkings of Baator but Glasya has been an enemy with Levistus for a while the grudge being over Levistus murdering her mother," Simul said, " Besides what suffering can we be put through, all of the Abandonded started with nothing? Its like what one of my allies once said "When you have nothing what do you have to lose and once you have something would it really matter if you lost it if you had nothing to begin with?" This is not a question I am equipped to answer, my belligerent friend. You would have to as a cleric, or more likely the gods themselves. "Which would most likely result in me becoming a vestige," Simul said, "From what I know gods probably don't like the idea of someone asking them. Why are you so lazy?" If nothing else, you do at least have an active imagination. If there was such a war, and if I could do naught to stop it, and if I was forced to fight on one side or the other, I would choose Good over Law. I do hope that did not take too long? "I have no parents but I managed to find out about my heritage. Having bloodlines from a solar, a demon, and a devil I think that I am probably a lot stranger than most of the things I am capable of imagining. Although that might partially explain my belligerent additude," Simul said. The nature of a true paladin is unchanging: we fight to destroy evil and defend good. The only time in legend that Good and Evil, Law and Chaos ever fought together was during the God War, when the Destroyer threatened to end all things-- ((Hydryh: He's referencing the history of his world; don't mind him.)) --and the legends do not speak of paladins in particular. I would assume, however, that paladins of those dark days had as little to do with Evil as possible. Without threatening the efforts to hold off the Destroyer, of course. I do know that that was the only time in legend that Hieroneous, Kord, Hextor, and Gruumsh ever took to the field on the same side. By that example, I would think that the ancient paladins cooperated as far as was necessary, and no farther. "I guess that makes sense not all troops can be in the same unit so they probably kept seperate. Still I find this even interesting I will probably be doing some research on it soon," Simul said. Yes, darkness and light are metaphorical in reference to Evil and Good. The reason for this is that most Evil creatures, such as vampires, prefer or require darkness. As more evil is abroad int the night than the day, darkness and evil were tied together, leaving good and day to join. Despite your aggressive tone, I hope I have helped you to understand what we paladins are. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E. "I do have to admit you have been helpful and as for my aggressive tone you don't learn to be polite from spending the first seven years that you remember living in a sewer system and as I mentioned I despise nobility. I am trying to be civil but hatred as deep as that I have for nobility is hard to get rid of as so far I have only met one noble that I do not hate although thats mostly because her position was closer to being glorified cattle," Simul said.
Callista 06-20-07, 02:57 PM	"I wish what happened to you hadn't happened; but it's a fact that it happens, and that's why people become paladins. It's something inside--something that won't let you sit still until all those things are gone, and everybody has got a chance to live a decent life. "But, not meaning to offend you, I don't think you really hate noblemen. I think you hate the people who, when they get the power and status of the noblemen who mistreated you and others like you, will act the way those people did. It just seems like they're worse than the rest because they've got more power to do evil with. Somebody with less power can be just as evil, but just won't be able to do as much harm to others. There's good and evil at every level of society. It's just that, the more power you have, the more evident it gets to be which side you're on."
Erpegis 06-20-07, 03:09 PM	]"My next question has to do with the previous question. Why does supernatual evil always seem to be more active then supernatural good?" Simul asked. This is not a question I am equipped to answer, my belligerent friend. You would have to as a cleric, or more likely the gods themselves.[/quote] A mature man dressed in dirty robes and with visible stubble rises: I do believe that 'evil' is actually an active force. Evil is always the agent of change, while 'good' implies care and integrity. The evil is greed, desire to destroy, kill and maim, which must force the creatures of evil to commit destructive deeds. The good, on the other hand, is interested with protection and care, the tending of the sick and the elderly. Now, for another speaker: *Tapping his finger against the table top* Does it not bother you paladins that you rely on your Gods faith and bestow powers more then your own skill and wit? Does casting spells bother a sorcerer? The paladin has to rely on faith, after all, what else he has? A skilled Fighter, Skirmisher, or Ranger would be on the same level of skill provided they are just as seasoned (same level) as yourselves. The only difference is that they have a choice in what they wish to do with their lives. The only code of conduct they follow is the one they create for themselves. I also have made a choice, for I have abandoned the career of a paladin to hone my psionic abilities. And yet, I still consider myself a paladin. Why? Because, the choice does not truly belong to us. It belongs to the forces of Good. Who are we to question the divinities? I was not trained. I was sent. Yes there are some quite unsavoury characters out in the wolrd. However many warriors, and even wizards or trap smiths, I have met have just as many good intentions. Many may have done just as much, if not more, good deeds then any single paladin. Bless them, then! There are little children who through their entire short lives have done more good than I. I am not perfect, I merely tried to attain perfection. Is relying on your God like a crutch really that worth the ability to wave your shiney sword around like a badge while you could rely on your own skill to help people and “Do it in the name of -Your god-” Instead of him lending a helping hand all the time? Without Ilmater, I am nothing. In fact, I value the complete trust in my deity, in the Good that I see, more than any holy sword. And he reciprocates. I am relying on my skill, my psionic powers, and I am using the god-given abilities to do things for which I had received them. *Folding his arms behind his head and leaning back in his chair.* The most devout are indeed rewarded. However a good person is rewarded just the same. Good Gods don’t play favourites because everyone who does not commit evil is Equal in their eyes. Would you not agree? Equality? *raises his eyebrow* Oh, no. Justice and Mercy are more appropriate. Ilmater teaches us, that only by self-sacrifice we can achieve fulfilment. Compare a sactifice of Saint Elenar, who has sacrificed his very existence to maintain the crumbling temple by turning himself into a stone pillar, now crumbled and lost... with Jonas, the shopkeeper who gave a child a piece of candy. They both did a good deed. They both will be rewarded. But they certainly aren't equal. We all can be heroes, we can all become glorified. Some people do good things everyday, and hope to get into heavens. Bless them, I say. And they will certainly be rewarded. Arden the Mindreader, human Paladin/Telepath/Mental Knight
Stormbrand 06-20-07, 04:47 PM	*Tapping his finger against the table top* Does it not bother you paladins that you rely on your Gods faith and bestow powers more then your own skill and wit? My pact with celestials has made me into a receptacle for the essence of the Heavens. From there, learning to harness the energies takes skill and wit. Moral purity is required to retain and produce those energies. A skilled Fighter, Skirmisher, or Ranger would be on the same level of skill provided they are just as seasoned (same level) as yourselves. The only difference is that they have a choice in what they wish to do with their lives. The only code of conduct they follow is the one they create for themselves. We do more than mere swordsmen. In addition to defeating evil, we heal the sick and injured, we save our wounded comrades and inspire men to greater valour than before. These are deeds beyond common warriors. Yes there are some quite unsavoury characters out in the wolrd. However many warriors, and even wizards or trap smiths, I have met have just as many good intentions. Many may have done just as much, if not more, good deeds then any single paladin. May have? Then this is an issue of personal potential? Perhaps these warriors, wizards and trapsmiths are better suited to doing good works in their current roles. I for one, am more suited to being a paladin. Is relying on your God like a crutch really that worth the ability to wave your shiney sword around like a badge while you could rely on your own skill to help people and “Do it in the name of -Your god-” Instead of him lending a helping hand all the time? Which god lends a helping hand? None in my case. True strength of spirit is needed to invoke miracles as we do. Few have the talent for that. *Folding his arms behind his head and leaning back in his chair.* The most devout are indeed rewarded. However a good person is rewarded just the same. Good Gods don’t play favourites because everyone who does not commit evil is Equal in their eyes. Would you not agree? No. I would not agree with anything you have said. The most devout and good are altruistic, and as such do not demand greater rewards. We do good deeds because they are worth doing, not for compensation. Gods of good know this, and do not waste their rewards on us when we would rather they were used on the more worthy.
Stormbrand 06-20-07, 05:16 PM	What reference to the Dungeon Master? You mean the "I would punish..." sentences? Replace them with "I would expect punishment to fall upon..." sentences. Very well. To your concerns I ask, what do you perceive honour as? For me, it is a moral standard of trustworthiness and integrity. What does this have to do with permitting a foe to fight at full effectiveness during battle? We fight against those who bring harm to the innocent, not just those villains with a fair chance in combat. The bandits whom I commonly fight have robbed and murdered and defiled, those crimes do not go away simply because the weapon of the brigand has been smashed into shards. My honour requires me to bring swift end to the wicked. Leaving justice undone because the battle would be in my favour would be a grave breach of honour. I fight evil. Evil is not required to be ready for me when I bring it down.
Hydryh 06-20-07, 09:25 PM	*Tapping his finger against the table top* Does it not bother you paladins that you rely on your Gods faith and bestow powers more then your own skill and wit? We do not draw our powers from the gods, though many of us pay them homage. A skilled Fighter, Skirmisher, or Ranger would be on the same level of skill provided they are just as seasoned (same level) as yourselves. The only difference is that they have a choice in what they wish to do with their lives. The only code of conduct they follow is the one they create for themselves. We choose to follow our Codes. One on that path, the discipline of adhering to our beliefs is a source of strength to us. Yes there are some quite unsavoury characters out in the wolrd. However many warriors, and even wizards or trap smiths, I have met have just as many good intentions. Many may have done just as much, if not more, good deeds then any single paladin. Then you have never met a proper paladin. Is relying on your God like a crutch really that worth the ability to wave your shiney sword around like a badge while you could rely on your own skill to help people and “Do it in the name of -Your god-” Instead of him lending a helping hand all the time? Again, you misunderstand. Perhaps you are thinking of clerics? *Folding his arms behind his head and leaning back in his chair.* The most devout are indeed rewarded. However a good person is rewarded just the same. Good Gods don’t play favourites because everyone who does not commit evil is Equal in their eyes. Would you not agree? I would not know what the gods think. As for rewards, if I wanted rewards I would simply run my county, rather than riding off to subsist on trail rations for months at a time as I crawl through cold, dank cave that smell... Well, they smell quite bad. I do what I do because I am driven to help those in need, not for any gain of my own. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E.
BoringInfoGuy 06-20-07, 11:59 PM	{Now that I'm done making a fool of myself OOC, I'll go with making a fool of myself IC.} :: A slightly built young man enters the room. From his slight build and clumsy stance, many would assume that he's a fool who thought that a suit of armor would impress the ladies. At first glance, at least. The armor has too many dents, and while he's graceless, he carries himself has someone who has seen, and survived many battles. Often by the smallest of margins. :: Ah, the gathering of Paladin's, right? My name is Ren, and I too, walk the paladin's path. There is a bard story that I heard recently. In it was a situation where I did not know what I would do. Here's the short version of the story. In it, there is a man who is the most vile of specimans. A mass killer, including his own family. Many men are hunting him. In the confusion, they believe that they have killed him, but the body is lost. Much later, they find that he is still alive. But due to the severity of his wounds, he lost his memory. He was found by the residents of a small village, who nursed him back to health. Since then, he has become a well loved member of this village. Not just a member, but a leader, who has done much to improve the lives of those who saved him. So, here was the dilemma. I thought, what if I was one of the one's hunting him. He deserved to be hunted down and punished. Death was already his sentance. But this new guy, the one without memories, what about him? He has done nothing but help people. What good would it take to punish him? But if he's left alone, those memories could return. What then? This was just a story, but in this, I don't what I would do.
Braekor Dragonfang 06-21-07, 02:09 AM	*A lithe figure emerges from the shadows in one corner of the room, clad in black garbs, perhaps those of an assassin, complimented by a thick cloak so dark that seems to drink in the light around it. "My, my, isn't this the interesting little gathering? I've been listening for awhile, and I think it's time I joined in" *As he walks into the light, you immediately take notice of his darkly cheerful expression and ruby eyes that sparkle with otherworldly confidence. Those with the power to sense corruption and evil, heed his exceedingly strong aura of blackness. Small, keratinous horns sprout from his forehead, just below a thick tangle of midnight colored hair. "Kerrix Fiendson, and that's enough for now, or the point of my question will later be ruined," He said smiling, turning a small sword over in his left hand, a small sword that is very noticeably caked in dried blood. *Kerrix smiles, revealing white, pointed teeth, and walks closer towards the cornversing adventurers. You notice his skin is pale and he seems ragged and weary, as if he had been traveling for quite some time. His words, while picked carefully, betray a hint of resentment and disdain "More a question for our paladin friends, I ask, what do you think of me? It sounds strange, but from my outward appearance and my... err... particular 'presence' if you will, what opinion have you formed of me? what judgement have you rendered? Before anyone gets uppity, there's a point I promise"
DX2052 06-21-07, 02:12 AM	Would you belive that good is a point of view, and that many truth Paladins cling to depend greatly on there own points of view?
Comus 06-21-07, 02:33 AM	Ren: The man has changed completely? If true, I am not sure exactly what I would do if I were to come across it. Hm. Alright. Going purely by my first reaction, I would watch him carefully. My order considers brainwashing to be the most evil of any deed, even to turn a foe into a good man, so I would have to say he has already suffered a cruel enough fate. Odd coming from me, I know. I would tell him of his past - every man has a right to know where they have been - and then would ask him what he thinks is the right thing to do. His answer would likely be revealing. If I did not feel the need to execute him or take him for trial, I would make the village a spot I kept track of, and see if I could get someone to permanently keep watch over it, in case he should return to his old ways. Kerrix: I am currently wearing the black platemail of a fallen blackguard, and wielding a blade that has slain countless good men. Outward appearance means nothing to me, as I have seen many evil men wearing white robes and smiles, and many good men wearing black and carrying knives. However, you are full of the Taint. *grimace* In my opinion, you are a danger to everyone around you, as your soul is already in the grip of the ruinous powers. No doubt you're about to tell us that it's all an illusion, and you're a good person... or that it is no illusion, just a cursed heritage. Perhaps you'll tell us how you fight against the forces of your dark kin. Frankly, I don't care. You're unclean. The only way to cleanse you is to purge you from this world. If we met on the streets, I would strike you down and send your soul back to its dark master, for I can already sense the grip the forces of Evil have on it. You could be a Paladin, the greatest hero in whatever land you come from, and I would still strike you down simply for being such a thing. No matter who you are, I would kill you for what you are. *sneer* Of course, it is more likely that you're not good at all, merely a tool of evil come to taunt us about overanalyzing a situation. - Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 03:15 AM	*A lithe figure emerges from the shadows in one corner of the room, clad in black garbs, perhaps those of an assassin, complimented by a thick cloak so dark that seems to drink in the light around it. "My, my, isn't this the interesting little gathering? I've been listening for awhile, and I think it's time I joined in" *As he walks into the light, you immediately take notice of his darkly cheerful expression and ruby eyes that sparkle with otherworldly confidence. Those with the power to sense corruption and evil, heed his exceedingly strong aura of blackness. Small, keratinous horns sprout from his forehead, just below a thick tangle of midnight colored hair. "Kerrix Fiendson, and that's enough for now, or the point of my question will later be ruined," He said smiling, turning a small sword over in his left hand, a small sword that is very noticeably caked in dried blood. *Kerrix smiles, revealing white, pointed teeth, and walks closer towards the cornversing adventurers. You notice his skin is pale and he seems ragged and weary, as if he had been traveling for quite some time. His words, while picked carefully, betray a hint of resentment and disdain "More a question for our paladin friends, I ask, what do you think of me? It sounds strange, but from my outward appearance and my... err... particular 'presence' if you will, what opinion have you formed of me? what judgement have you rendered? Before anyone gets uppity, there's a point I promise" I sense a thick darkness in your heart. You would be hard-pressed to convince me that you bring no peril to the innocent. And indeed, I expect that you have come to taunt and undermine our beliefs, attempting to use yourself as an exception to the rule. If this is fiendish heritage or corruption, then there is a question as to how you keep such unholy impulses in check. Quite frankly, the best I would believe is that you are a killer kept on a chain.
maharai23 06-21-07, 03:21 AM	Evil is no more stupid than good is. In many cases, evil is more intelligent by necessity. After years of keeping track of countless lies, multiple layers of manipulation, one gets good at it. One learns things he couldn't possibly pick up in any amount of years being good. Some skills, talents, and abilities simply lend themselves more to evil than good. Good suffers from difficult decisions when it comes to evil and good, and hostages and the like. Also, from trusting too much. Evil suffers from a lack of cooperation. Many an evil person has been undone because he could not trust enough. Because he couldn't get the help he needed. In the end, your world views have little to do with your intellect, or skill, beyond what you learn. It's how you use what you learn that shapes your views. Rather than debate on the nature of good and evil, and the superiority of each, can we not accept the need for both? What is good without evil, except stagnant? What is evil without good, except hopeless? Maharai Grimm Human Rogue/Chameleon
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 04:06 AM	New character. *A mighty warrior strides forward, standing a shade over six feet tall and built like a castle wall. His face was clean-shaven, with high, sharp cheekbones and a smooth jawline. As well as skin very, very fair, just shy of deathly, and bearing two thin, black, parallel scars running across from his torn ear to just below his right eye, and a narrow scar running down the left side of his face. Dark hair deeply flecked with red reaches to the tips of his thick shoulders, roughly sawn off with a dagger blade when it reached further. Azure eyes blazed with determination, as intense as blue fire. Above them is a sharp brow, forming an upturned line over each eye. Overall, he looks somewhat strange but certainly not unpleasant. Bluntly functional armour of crimson and dull grey encases his form, adorned with numerous badges - a bloodstone on a brass badge, an eye on a shield, and a downwards-pointing white sword. Three coloured ribbons encircle his right forearm, one red, one blue, one green. Each seeming like military decoration, declarations of a highly successful career so far.* "Greetings, Sir Knights. I see we have interesting company." *shakes his head, dispelling any doubts in his mind.* "Fellow paladins, in light of my question I will not name my Order and homeland, in the interest of protecting my good name back home. Here is a matter that I would wish to speak of with my fellow defenders of right." "I was not always a paladin. One here had spoken of having come very close to falling, close to taking a place as a blackguard. As I can tell you, that place is somewhere you never want to be. It is a place of hatred, of raw and profound hate which burns away within, corrupting everything it touches with the limitless malice." "I never want to feel that way again. Yes. I speak from experience." "Many now know me as a hero, for my deeds which have earned my current position in the righteous order I now serve, and for my deeds since. The prestigious order had indeed approached me. And I have never spoken of my dark history." "Once, I was known as the Font of Ruin. A force for destruction. A mighty blackguard of Gehenna itself. A worker of demons and champion of the Blood War. I am the result of an act of base depravity and corruption, the mating of a priestess of evil with a summoned fiend." "Aside from my contributions to the Blood War, which more often cost the lives of planar mortal battle-slaves than true fiends, I have done many dark things. I was the leader of rebel githyanki who had grown too powerful for the acceptance of their lich queen, and we raided across the planes, with our primary loot being the spoils of innocents slain or enslaved. From that power-base, I took power over an unholy legion and unleashed it across the mortal world, leaving only pain and terror behind me in the blasted wrecks that were once homes and communities. The very ground was seeped with the pain and fear of those who perished by my will and my hand." "Ruin was my wake and despair was my vanguard." "Eventually, all of that changed. My pursuit of power had been selfish, of course, as was always the case with blackguards. Once, when slaying rival, I saw those who had suffered by his hand. Their gratitude was...new. I learned that there were far greater things than to be feared." "Perhaps due to my growing attatchment with these people, my dark master had a demand. She had grown powerful on innocent blood. Blood which I gave her through the ritual murder of living sacrifice. The victims she demanded were the very people who remembered me for saving them." "All were to die by my hand." "Many did. The ceremony was prepared, and the altar was soon slick with innocent blood. Yet there were many more to be slaughtered. One of whom, a poor girl-child, of pure heart and dreams, she was next to die. The priest beside me demanded it." "My sword swung down, striking the neck and severing the head. The demands of the priest were silenced. Permanently." "Having made my choice, I defied the dark master and did battle against my fellow demons and cultists. They died also. The people, the innocents, were saved. My unhallowed armour began to rot against me, writhing with fresh-spawned lice and filth, my sword burned my hand. I claimed new weapons and armour of bone from the vanquished, and the Abyss was my master no longer." "The people were taken to a paladin order, of all places, where they were sheltered and protected against retribution. The girl-child who I refused to murder is now a high priestess of great virtue and grace, a mighty force for good." "A chain of events followed. My initial plan afterwards was suicide by gold-dragon. It seemed the appropriate thing. Only the great dragon lord which I had found was already wounded by a battle with wicked dragonslayers, who were making ready to return. The battle I sought was no longer an option. It was my life to be taken, not that of the fair and noble dragon." "And so, when the dragonslayers returned, I fought against them with the dragon lord. My dragon lord. This dragon had long served the gods of good, and in staying with him I learned of honour and right. I learned the path of the paladin. And I learned to walk it." "Now, fellow paladins. I ask your thoughts on me. While I believe that I certainly deserve death for all I have done, there are innocent and goodly folk whom I protect, and they do not deserve pain and death. In essence, my lords, I ask you of my right to live."
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 04:14 AM	Evil is no more stupid than good is. In many cases, evil is more intelligent by necessity. After years of keeping track of countless lies, multiple layers of manipulation, one gets good at it. One learns things he couldn't possibly pick up in any amount of years being good. Some skills, talents, and abilities simply lend themselves more to evil than good. Good suffers from difficult decisions when it comes to evil and good, and hostages and the like. Also, from trusting too much. Evil suffers from a lack of cooperation. Many an evil person has been undone because he could not trust enough. Because he couldn't get the help he needed. In the end, your world views have little to do with your intellect, or skill, beyond what you learn. It's how you use what you learn that shapes your views. Rather than debate on the nature of good and evil, and the superiority of each, can we not accept the need for both? What is good without evil, except stagnant? What is evil without good, except hopeless? Maharai Grimm Human Rogue/Chameleon (Back to Aorle Kar) The intelligence you speak of required for evil is wasted intelligence, which could be used for greater things than constant lies and betrayals. An evil man learns evil things. Things best unlearned. Paladins learn to combat evil, and form an awareness of how it operates, but that is a different knowledge. If Good is flawed, then these are flaws I would rather have. Refusing to take hostages is based on the grounds that the hostage is an innocent. We fight our foes, and only our foes. Striking down bystanders in the process is unacceptable. Good without Evil is Heaven, Utopia, Paradise. Evil without Good is Hell and the Abyss. When all is good, everyone prospers. When all is evil, everyone suffers.
Braekor Dragonfang 06-21-07, 09:20 AM	Kerrix: I am currently wearing the black platemail of a fallen blackguard, and wielding a blade that has slain countless good men. Outward appearance means nothing to me, as I have seen many evil men wearing white robes and smiles, and many good men wearing black and carrying knives. However, you are full of the Taint. *grimace* In my opinion, you are a danger to everyone around you, as your soul is already in the grip of the ruinous powers. No doubt you're about to tell us that it's all an illusion, and you're a good person... or that it is no illusion, just a cursed heritage. Perhaps you'll tell us how you fight against the forces of your dark kin. Frankly, I don't care. You're unclean. The only way to cleanse you is to purge you from this world. If we met on the streets, I would strike you down and send your soul back to its dark master, for I can already sense the grip the forces of Evil have on it. You could be a Paladin, the greatest hero in whatever land you come from, and I would still strike you down simply for being such a thing. No matter who you are, I would kill you for what you are. *sneer* Of course, it is more likely that you're not good at all, merely a tool of evil come to taunt us about overanalyzing a situation. - Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. *After taking in your words, Kerrix chuckles and sheaths his sword "No no, there is no illusion, no cursed heritage, and I certainly can't tell you I'm a good person, at least not in the way you're thinking. I am a Tiefling, but was not born this way. One fine day in the western heartlands of Faerun, I was walking the length of the Boareskyr Bridge, attempting to find my way home. I was just a child of twelve then. Along the way, I was attacked by a troll" *At this point, Kerrix's eyes turn towards the floor a hateful fire brewing inside "I faced two choices, die, in a very painful and miserable fashion at the hands of said troll; OR I could jump in the river, that part of which had been tainted by the essence of the dark god of murder Bhaal in the Time of Troubles. The river was in all likelyhood going to kill me, but I jumped in anyway. The poisonous water did not kill me, but seeped into my soul, transforming me into something... a bit less than human" *Kerrix's toothy smile returns "The question here now is, do you view me in the same light? do you think it fair to judge me so, knowing that I faced a life or death choice, and had this curse forced upon me? Do you still think I deserve to die? Am I responsible for this taint on my soul?"
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 09:35 AM	*After taking in your words, Kerrix chuckles sheaths his sword "No no, there is no illusion, no cursed heritage, and I certainly can't tell you I'm a good person, at least not in the way you're thinking. I am a Tiefling, but was not born this way. One fine day in the western heartlands of Faerun, I was walking the length of the Boareskyr Bridge, attempting to find my way home. I was just a child of twelve then. Along the way, I was attacked by a troll" *At this point, Kerrix's eyes turn towards the floor a hateful fire brewing inside "I faced two choices, die, in a very painful and miserable fashion at the hands of said troll; OR I could jump in the river, that part of which had been tainted by the essence of the dark god of murder Bhaal in the Time of Troubles. The river was in all likelyhood going to kill me, but I jumped in anyway. The poisonous water did not kill me, but seeped into my soul, transforming me into something... a bit less than human" *Kerrix's toothy smile returns "The question here now is, do you view me in the same light? do you think it fair to judge me so, knowing that I faced a life or death choice, and had this curse forced upon me? Do you still think I deserve to die? Am I responsible for this taint on my soul?" So either you have earned the stain on your soul, or the dark essence of murder is corrupting you. Either way, I would say that you are a danger that must be dealt with. In the latter case, I would hope for non-fatal methods, but I would not permit you to endanger innocents in spite of your sorry circumstances. I can pity you for the events which brought you to such a sorry state, I can only judge you as the Heavens have judged you.
Callista 06-21-07, 10:19 AM	So, here was the dilemma. I thought, what if I was one of the one's hunting him. He deserved to be hunted down and punished. Death was already his sentance. But this new guy, the one without memories, what about him? He has done nothing but help people. What good would it take to punish him? But if he's left alone, those memories could return. What then? This was just a story, but in this, I don't what I would do."I don't think it's a dilemma at all. A person is the sum of his memories... when they're destroyed, so is his personality. It's just the same as if he'd been killed, and a new man in his place. If I couldn't see any evil on his soul, and if I couldn't detect any magic about him, I'd say he was being given a second chance, and leave it at that. "My real dilemma in that case would be: Do you tell him, so he can keep from turning to evil again? Or do you keep his past a secret, and risk his learning it from some other source, or being killed by a vengeful enemy (or ally), or even recovering his memory? I think I'd have to consult a good cleric, in any case; they know more about knocks on the head and loss of memory than I do. Maybe there's something that can be done to ensure he doesn't go back... if he's told, and if he's a good man, he probably won't want to." Stormbrand: "I think, even if your dragon lord hadn't been already wounded and you had attacked him, he would've seen your intentions. They always do, you know. There's just something about dragons--it's near impossible to hide anything from them, whether you're trying to steal their hoards or trying to get them to kill you. "What I think about it is that a much wiser mind than mine has already deemed you worthy to live. Redemption is a big part of Good; maybe that possibility is some of our power. For people in the service of an evil lord, people who've done wrong all their lives... they know there's always a way out; a choice to do something other than what they've been doing. "I can't imagine having to live with your past; but I think living is a greater atonement than dying. It's certainly harder. "There's nothing to be gained from an execution, and everything to be gained from a life lived atoning for the evil you did. You're living proof that no matter how much wrong people do, there's always a way back. "But remember there's nothing to be gained from being overwhelmed with guilt, either; it doesn't serve any practical purpose once it's convinced you to change your path. You've got now, and the future. Live for that."
maharai23 06-21-07, 10:54 AM	(Back to Aorle Kar) The intelligence you speak of required for evil is wasted intelligence, which could be used for greater things than constant lies and betrayals. An evil man learns evil things. Things best unlearned. Paladins learn to combat evil, and form an awareness of how it operates, but that is a different knowledge. If Good is flawed, then these are flaws I would rather have. Refusing to take hostages is based on the grounds that the hostage is an innocent. We fight our foes, and only our foes. Striking down bystanders in the process is unacceptable. Good without Evil is Heaven, Utopia, Paradise. Evil without Good is Hell and the Abyss. When all is good, everyone prospers. When all is evil, everyone suffers. My good sir, I was not referring to the TAKING of hostages... Merely the dealing with the taking of hostages. It is a common, and difficult tactic, often employed by the foes of good. As for wasted knowledge... Is any knowledge truly wasted? True, I know much of poisons. Does it not also aid in the treating of them? I know much of subterfuge, silencing an enemy before he knows I am there. That too, can be used in either good or evil ways. While some skills lend themselves more to evil, any knowledge is neither good nor evil, rather defined by the user. As for your Utopia... Your heaven... Can a heaven exist without a hell? Can there be a place for the saved without a place for the damned? We live in imperfect times, my friend, and imperfect times oft call for imperfect solutions. For perfection is oft too rigid to be effective. Consider the fire, which takes many lives... It also paves the way for new life. It enriches the soil. For this reason, many farmers burn the chaff of their field periodically. In almost all cases, when one thing is harmed, another is helped. Such is the way of the world. Such is the way of balance. For as long as there are forces on one side of that balance, there will be forces on the other, and lives will be caught between them. While good is generally the reaction in this case... For what would good need to do without evil to vanquish? Still, the point must be made, that the world exists in balance. So it has existed. So it shall continue to exist. There are many planes of existance where law and good hold sway, or where fire or ice are dominant. On this plane, it all comes together, order and chaos, good and evil, fire and ice. Thus, forever will this plane exist in a state of flux... Without law is barbarism... Without chaos is complacency. Without good is cruelty... Without evil is weakness. Yes, weakness. For the strength of good is never realized unless tempered in the fires of adversity. Without conflict, there can be no strength. Without strength, when conflict does come, it will be far worse. You owe the skill of your blade, the sureness in your stance.... You owe that to the acts of evil that spurred you to take arms. Were it not for those acts, what reason would there be to fight? And as is the nature of all things, chaos will always come, crashing in a wave. And without the strength to withstand that, all you love will be swept away. Thus, balance benefits all.
Nevercme 06-21-07, 12:31 PM	Kerrix: Do you work towards Good or Evil with your kills? Do you ignore Evil's call and Taint or do you embrace it? You may not say that you aren't a killer or a murderer, but you can say who you murder. If you do work towards good, then the worst feelings I would harbor towards you are ones of regret for the way you work towards good. On the other hand, if you worked towards evil, then I would find you and slay you not on neutral grounds. Ren: I would watch him, eventually make myself known to him and slowly reveal his past. You would need to be careful about it, but he deserves to know whom he was. Mahari: We are as much keepers of balance as Druids are. We however work towards the side of protection while Evil works on the side of destruction. Druids work toward protecting the balance. That is why you find them on either side of a conflict. The balance is never able to be destroyed. This is because man is greedy and generous, good and evil. As man cannot be rid of either one completely a balance is attained instead.
darkneolink 06-21-07, 12:37 PM	New character. *A mighty warrior strides forward, standing a shade over six feet tall and built like a castle wall. His face was clean-shaven, with high, sharp cheekbones and a smooth jawline. As well as skin very, very fair, just shy of deathly, and bearing two thin, black, parallel scars running across from his torn ear to just below his right eye, and a narrow scar running down the left side of his face. Dark hair deeply flecked with red reaches to the tips of his thick shoulders, roughly sawn off with a dagger blade when it reached further. Azure eyes blazed with determination, as intense as blue fire. Above them is a sharp brow, forming an upturned line over each eye. Overall, he looks somewhat strange but certainly not unpleasant. Bluntly functional armour of crimson and dull grey encases his form, adorned with numerous badges - a bloodstone on a brass badge, an eye on a shield, and a downwards-pointing white sword. Three coloured ribbons encircle his right forearm, one red, one blue, one green. Each seeming like military decoration, declarations of a highly successful career so far.* "Greetings, Sir Knights. I see we have interesting company." *shakes his head, dispelling any doubts in his mind.* "Fellow paladins, in light of my question I will not name my Order and homeland, in the interest of protecting my good name back home. Here is a matter that I would wish to speak of with my fellow defenders of right." "I was not always a paladin. One here had spoken of having come very close to falling, close to taking a place as a blackguard. As I can tell you, that place is somewhere you never want to be. It is a place of hatred, of raw and profound hate which burns away within, corrupting everything it touches with the limitless malice." "I never want to feel that way again. Yes. I speak from experience." "Many now know me as a hero, for my deeds which have earned my current position in the righteous order I now serve, and for my deeds since. The prestigious order had indeed approached me. And I have never spoken of my dark history." "Once, I was known as the Font of Ruin. A force for destruction. A mighty blackguard of Gehenna itself. A worker of demons and champion of the Blood War. I am the result of an act of base depravity and corruption, the mating of a priestess of evil with a summoned fiend." "Aside from my contributions to the Blood War, which more often cost the lives of planar mortal battle-slaves than true fiends, I have done many dark things. I was the leader of rebel githyanki who had grown too powerful for the acceptance of their lich queen, and we raided across the planes, with our primary loot being the spoils of innocents slain or enslaved. From that power-base, I took power over an unholy legion and unleashed it across the mortal world, leaving only pain and terror behind me in the blasted wrecks that were once homes and communities. The very ground was seeped with the pain and fear of those who perished by my will and my hand." "Ruin was my wake and despair was my vanguard." "Eventually, all of that changed. My pursuit of power had been selfish, of course, as was always the case with blackguards. Once, when slaying rival, I saw those who had suffered by his hand. Their gratitude was...new. I learned that there were far greater things than to be feared." "Perhaps due to my growing attatchment with these people, my dark master had a demand. She had grown powerful on innocent blood. Blood which I gave her through the ritual murder of living sacrifice. The victims she demanded were the very people who remembered me for saving them." "All were to die by my hand." "Many did. The ceremony was prepared, and the altar was soon slick with innocent blood. Yet there were many more to be slaughtered. One of whom, a poor girl-child, of pure heart and dreams, she was next to die. The priest beside me demanded it." "My sword swung down, striking the neck and severing the head. The demands of the priest were silenced. Permanently." "Having made my choice, I defied the dark master and did battle against my fellow demons and cultists. They died also. The people, the innocents, were saved. My unhallowed armour began to rot against me, writhing with fresh-spawned lice and filth, my sword burned my hand. I claimed new weapons and armour of bone from the vanquished, and the Abyss was my master no longer." "The people were taken to a paladin order, of all places, where they were sheltered and protected against retribution. The girl-child who I refused to murder is now a high priestess of great virtue and grace, a mighty force for good." "A chain of events followed. My initial plan afterwards was suicide by gold-dragon. It seemed the appropriate thing. Only the great dragon lord which I had found was already wounded by a battle with wicked dragonslayers, who were making ready to return. The battle I sought was no longer an option. It was my life to be taken, not that of the fair and noble dragon." "And so, when the dragonslayers returned, I fought against them with the dragon lord. My dragon lord. This dragon had long served the gods of good, and in staying with him I learned of honour and right. I learned the path of the paladin. And I learned to walk it." "Now, fellow paladins. I ask your thoughts on me. While I believe that I certainly deserve death for all I have done, there are innocent and goodly folk whom I protect, and they do not deserve pain and death. In essence, my lords, I ask you of my right to live." Well my friend- Sir Igne said while standing up and walking to him- you did evil before... but I understand that you had a chance of redemption... as I've stated before... I had fallen in my past and felt the hate that fills the heart of a blackguard... and I also was helped by an inocent to come to the light- He smiles and puts his right hand on his shoulder- go with peace... you deserve to live... use your power for the forces of both Good and Law in that order... honor love... be chivalrous... smile at dawn and at nightfall... live everyday as if it were your last day alive-Then Igneo smiled and slaped him- And don't forget that-Walks back to his chair
Comus 06-21-07, 12:41 PM	"The question here now is, do you view me in the same light? do you think it fair to judge me so, knowing that I faced a life or death choice, and had this curse forced upon me? Do you still think I deserve to die? Am I responsible for this taint on my soul?" Yes. Font of Ruin: You're a half-fiend, a corruption of nature. No matter how many good deeds you do, your soul will always be in the grasp of evil. No, you do not deserve to live - but as long as you are doing good, you have a temporary reprieve. But only temporary. Someday you will slip and fall, and someone like me will be there waiting with blade drawn. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 02:34 PM	Yes. Font of Ruin: You're a half-fiend, a corruption of nature. No matter how many good deeds you do, your soul will always be in the grasp of evil. No, you do not deserve to live - but as long as you are doing good, you have a temporary reprieve. But only temporary. Someday you will slip and fall, and someone like me will be there waiting with blade drawn. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. Very well. Though I must say that I find it strange that your judgement is based on my fiendish blood and not my past crimes. Part of my researches seeks to give me peace from the constant struggle with my unholy urgings. Actually I plan to live forever. There is a Place Prepared For Me. No matter how many good deeds I do, no matter how well I serve the cause of Good, no matter how worthy I am now as a paladin, I am going to the cursed realm of the Dark Goddess of Spite upon my death, to forever face the torments she decides for me. As I understand, she was most upset by my act of defiance. So perhaps you can understand why I would wish to put that off as long as possible. I seek to keep the hourglass turning. A temporary reprieve while I hold true to the Path of Right seems more than fair. Perhaps to your surprise, I do not resent your judgement. So Sir Bludbayn, let me say this. Should I slip and fall, should it be you who is waiting for me with blade drawn, should you emerge victorious, and I would advise you to be very wary of the power I possess if you forsee such a battle, let me say this now for it will go unsaid at the time. Thank you. Perhaps something I should say is that I was offered the chance to free my soul from the grip of evil. At a price. The price was to accept my death there and then, and be spared from the vengeance of the dark goddess. On another day, perhaps I would have accepted it, but on that day, innocents were fleeing from an unholy legion. Innocents who needed me to protect them. Some would say the price was too high, in truth, the price was not mine to pay. I would not call it my one chance for redemption, but I would consider it my one chance to be rewarded for redemption. The god in question, who was born a mortal paladin himself, had that one chance to spare me from the dire fate which awaits me. The offer was an act of kindness, but to be cleansed of taint would bring a cost of innocent lives, something which we both agree would be unacceptable. Does this have any effect on your opinion, of me in any form? Well my friend- Sir Igne said while standing up and walking to him- you did evil before... but I understand that you had a chance of redemption... as I've stated before... I had fallen in my past and felt the hate that fills the heart of a blackguard... and I also was helped by an inocent to come to the light- He smiles and puts his right hand on his shoulder- go with peace... you deserve to live... use your power for the forces of both Good and Law in that order... honor love... be chivalrous... smile at dawn and at nightfall... live everyday as if it were your last day alive-Then Igneo smiled and slaped him- And don't forget that-Walks back to his chair Thank you for your kindness. *Ignores slap* Stormbrand: "I think, even if your dragon lord hadn't been already wounded and you had attacked him, he would've seen your intentions. They always do, you know. There's just something about dragons--it's near impossible to hide anything from them, whether you're trying to steal their hoards or trying to get them to kill you. "What I think about it is that a much wiser mind than mine has already deemed you worthy to live. Redemption is a big part of Good; maybe that possibility is some of our power. For people in the service of an evil lord, people who've done wrong all their lives... they know there's always a way out; a choice to do something other than what they've been doing. "I can't imagine having to live with your past; but I think living is a greater atonement than dying. It's certainly harder. "There's nothing to be gained from an execution, and everything to be gained from a life lived atoning for the evil you did. You're living proof that no matter how much wrong people do, there's always a way back. "But remember there's nothing to be gained from being overwhelmed with guilt, either; it doesn't serve any practical purpose once it's convinced you to change your path. You've got now, and the future. Live for that." In truth, while I look on my past with horror and regret, and deeply wish that I had done differently, I do not feel the sting of guilt. Instead, I feel that the many who I have wronged have a right to justice. At times I wonder if my crimes have gone unanswered.
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 02:41 PM	My good sir, I was not referring to the TAKING of hostages... Merely the dealing with the taking of hostages. It is a common, and difficult tactic, often employed by the foes of good. As for wasted knowledge... Is any knowledge truly wasted? True, I know much of poisons. Does it not also aid in the treating of them? I know much of subterfuge, silencing an enemy before he knows I am there. That too, can be used in either good or evil ways. While some skills lend themselves more to evil, any knowledge is neither good nor evil, rather defined by the user. As for your Utopia... Your heaven... Can a heaven exist without a hell? Can there be a place for the saved without a place for the damned? We live in imperfect times, my friend, and imperfect times oft call for imperfect solutions. For perfection is oft too rigid to be effective. Consider the fire, which takes many lives... It also paves the way for new life. It enriches the soil. For this reason, many farmers burn the chaff of their field periodically. In almost all cases, when one thing is harmed, another is helped. Such is the way of the world. Such is the way of balance. For as long as there are forces on one side of that balance, there will be forces on the other, and lives will be caught between them. While good is generally the reaction in this case... For what would good need to do without evil to vanquish? Still, the point must be made, that the world exists in balance. So it has existed. So it shall continue to exist. There are many planes of existance where law and good hold sway, or where fire or ice are dominant. On this plane, it all comes together, order and chaos, good and evil, fire and ice. Thus, forever will this plane exist in a state of flux... Without law is barbarism... Without chaos is complacency. Without good is cruelty... Without evil is weakness. Yes, weakness. For the strength of good is never realized unless tempered in the fires of adversity. Without conflict, there can be no strength. Without strength, when conflict does come, it will be far worse. You owe the skill of your blade, the sureness in your stance.... You owe that to the acts of evil that spurred you to take arms. Were it not for those acts, what reason would there be to fight? And as is the nature of all things, chaos will always come, crashing in a wave. And without the strength to withstand that, all you love will be swept away. Thus, balance benefits all. The 'flaws' which you find in Good & Law, weakness and complacency, depend upon the intervention of evil and chaos. What would be lost without chaos and evil would not be needed without chaos and evil. Ergo the loss of chaos and evil has no true detriment. All you have proven is that you do not understand Good. So understand this, Evil is by definition a bad thing that all is better without. If it's existance is not a blight upon the world, it is not evil. Any philosophy that seeks to glorify evil is deluded at best and corrupt at worst. Tread lightly. - Aorle Kar.
Braekor Dragonfang 06-21-07, 02:54 PM	So either you have earned the stain on your soul, or the dark essence of murder is corrupting you. Either way, I would say that you are a danger that must be dealt with. In the latter case, I would hope for non-fatal methods, but I would not permit you to endanger innocents in spite of your sorry circumstances. I can pity you for the events which brought you to such a sorry state, I can only judge you as the Heavens have judged you. *The tiefling raises his eyebrow and his voice "The heavens judge me? Because I, as a twelve year old boy, terrified out of his mind, chose the path that was less likely to get me eaten? Try not to take offense from my tone, but how can you come to such a conclusion?" Kerrix: Do you work towards Good or Evil with your kills? Do you ignore Evil's call and Taint or do you embrace it? You may not say that you aren't a killer or a murderer, but you can say who you murder. If you do work towards good, then the worst feelings I would harbor towards you are ones of regret for the way you work towards good. On the other hand, if you worked towards evil, then I would find you and slay you not on neutral grounds. *Kerrix folds his arms across his chest and closes his eyes for a moment "I will admit, I am an assassin, and my ways are blatant and selfish, but perhaps more complex than just good or evil. I kill for two reasons: gain and loss. Killing to gain, in my case, means I kill to accomplish whatever goal I deem necessary. I do not kill innocents, and I do not kill wantonly, but I am a murderer. When I kill for a loss, I am doing something selfless for selfish reasons, such as killing trolls, aberrations or demons. I hate demons, and devils, and I kill them as fervently as any of you good knights. I have my own code, and I have no qualms about helping others when I want and how I want, and I like kids, I'd never hurt a kid" Yes. Font of Ruin: You're a half-fiend, a corruption of nature. No matter how many good deeds you do, your soul will always be in the grasp of evil. No, you do not deserve to live - but as long as you are doing good, you have a temporary reprieve. But only temporary. Someday you will slip and fall, and someone like me will be there waiting with blade drawn. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. *Kerrix giggles slightly, his grin renewed, but now more playful "I expected as much. Rather than retort, I have something else to say. You holy knights may think I am here to undermine your beliefs, but I have no interest in such a thing. Honestly, I have a great deal of respect for paladins and their will power, as well as their honor. I fully understand the paladin's life, having fought beside my beloved Leane, a pa-" *A tall, regal looking young woman steps forth, interrupting Kerrix. She wears chainmail of shining mithral and a cape of brilliant sapphire colored silk, a greatsword on her back "I'll jump in here love. I am Leane Stormlance, Aasimar Paladin of Tyr, and wife of Kerrix. To be honest it interests me greatly in what you think of him and myself now. I apologize for playing his game again, but it was Kerrix's idea to come here anyway, and I do enjoy conversing with fellow knights on such moral issues" (OOC: I hope it's alright to introduce a second character)
Maekrix_Waere 06-21-07, 03:41 PM	Very well. To your concerns I ask, what do you perceive honour as? For me, it is a moral standard of trustworthiness and integrity. What does this have to do with permitting a foe to fight at full effectiveness during battle? Trustworthiness and integrity are parts of honour, true, but so is fighting fair. Poisitoxins and Ravages are an advantage that those who they are designed to combat can not also harness. Before you cry "They can do the same thing with poisons," let me reply that ANYONE can use poisons, so the advantage they give can be harnessed by ANYONE. The creatures which are affected by Poisitoxins/Ravages (99.999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999% of the time) can NOT use them against their would-be assailants. Listen, I am not here to argue to finer points of honour, I am merely arguing that, if we are to be led to believe that Poisons are dishonourable, then we must also accept that Ravages and Poisitoxins are also dishonourable. The arguement that they are "Holy" has no hold on this arguement because honour does not fall on the Good-Evil axis...it falls on the Law-Chaos axis. Also, the arguement that "Poisons are Evil, and that is why Paladins cannot use them," is flat out wrong...there are SEVERAL examples in the Core Rulebooks which show that. We fight against those who bring harm to the innocent, not just those villains with a fair chance in combat. The bandits whom I commonly fight have robbed and murdered and defiled, those crimes do not go away simply because the weapon of the brigand has been smashed into shards. Exactly right. However, I would expect that you give said brigand a genuine chance to surrender before you continue fighting. I'm not saying that you let him surrender, admonish him, and then let him go. I'm saying let him surrender, take him into custody, turn him over to the city/kingdom guards, and let him be justly tried for his crimes. If that punishment be death, then so be it. It was decided by a legitamate authority. If a legitimate authority has told you, prior to the encounter, that his punishment has already been decided, and that that punishment is death, then you are justified in taking his life, as, if you were to fulfill your duty as a Paladin, it is already predetermined to happen. My honour requires me to bring swift end to the wicked. Leaving justice undone because the battle would be in my favour would be a grave breach of honour. I fight evil. Evil is not required to be ready for me when I bring it down. Once again, we are not (supposed to be) arguing the finer points of honour. I would like to point out though, that, by your reasoning, it is perfectly acceptable for a Paladin to perform a Mass Genocide of all evil creatures, from the Darkest Lich to an infant kobold. I would also like to say that my arguements about Poisitoxins/Ravages is based on the RAW saying that Paladins cannot use Poisons. I, for one, believe that Paladins SHOULD be allowed to use Poisons. I justify that by the fact the Couatls have a Poisonous bite and their Alignment is "Always Lawful Good." However, I am also the one who believe that a Paladin with levels of Cleric should be allowed to Raise and Command Undead minions without penalty, and that unintelligent Undead should have an Alignment of "Always Neutral". I would justify that first part with the Credo of the Archons (Archons, the epitomes of Lawful Good): "Turning Evil against itself is the highest form of justice." :D
Devil Gnasher 06-21-07, 04:09 PM	A half-fiend and assimar married couple? I've seen and heard of much stranger things than that! I have seen Utopias, greatest (but most irritating) paladin of Seven Heavens. He is both a former vault guard for the Marquis of Averice Mammon and a penitent Nessian pit fiend. He has the bad habit of talking at people instead of talking to them.
BoringInfoGuy 06-21-07, 04:38 PM	Ren: The man has changed completely? If true, I am not sure exactly what I would do if I were to come across it. Hm. Alright. Going purely by my first reaction, I would watch him carefully. My order considers brainwashing to be the most evil of any deed, even to turn a foe into a good man, so I would have to say he has already suffered a cruel enough fate. Odd coming from me, I know. I would tell him of his past - every man has a right to know where they have been - and then would ask him what he thinks is the right thing to do. His answer would likely be revealing. If I did not feel the need to execute him or take him for trial, I would make the village a spot I kept track of, and see if I could get someone to permanently keep watch over it, in case he should return to his old ways. - Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. I would not say the man was brainwashed. Those who found him had no idea of his past, and only did what they felt was right. Telling him of his past seems dangerous. His memories are only lost. Reminding him of them could help him find them. I can agree that he has the right to know, but it seems a cruel blow to one who has done nothing but right for the length of his memory. (In the story, he was told, and became greatly distressed that he could have been such a monster). The problem with just leaving him is the danger that he will regain his memories, and return to this dark ways. Even by passing through the village often, how would you guarantee the safety of the people during your absence? The thought of entering the town to find a new batch of bodies is, . . . disturbing.
Stormbrand 06-21-07, 05:41 PM	*The tiefling raises his eyebrow and his voice "The heavens judge me? Because I, as a twelve year old boy, terrified out of his mind, chose the path that was less likely to get me eaten? Try not to take offense from my tone, but how can you come to such a conclusion?" Judged for that? No. As said, I pity your circumstances. How Heaven has judged you is as either wicked or dangerous due to outside corruption. That much, I tell by your aura. Again, if there is a way for you to be safely purified I would be happy to assist. *A tall, regal looking young woman steps forth, interrupting Kerrix. She wears chainmail of shining mithral and a cape of brilliant sapphire colored silk, a greatsword on her back "I'll jump in here love. I am Leane Stormlance, Aasimar Paladin of Tyr, and wife of Kerrix. To be honest it interests me greatly in what you think of him and myself now. I apologize for playing his game again, but it was Kerrix's idea to come here anyway, and I do enjoy conversing with fellow knights on such moral issues" (OOC: I hope it's alright to introduce a second character) My lady, allow me to point something out to you. "No no, there is no illusion, no cursed heritage, and I certainly can't tell you I'm a good person, at least not in the way you're thinking. You asked what I think of you and your husband. Very well. I think a paladin turns from their path by marrying one who cannot claim to be a good person. If you believe different, enlighten me, but one of you has spoken false. snip (OOC: then the paladin has nothing to say to you, good day ;) Honestly, I am not interested in OOC debates ).
Braekor Dragonfang 06-21-07, 06:53 PM	Judged for that? No. As said, I pity your circumstances. How Heaven has judged you is as either wicked or dangerous due to outside corruption. That much, I tell by your aura. Again, if there is a way for you to be safely purified I would be happy to assist. My lady, allow me to point something out to you. You asked what I think of you and your husband. Very well. I think a paladin turns from their path by marrying one who cannot claim to be a good person. If you believe different, enlighten me, but one of you has spoken false. *Leane smiles softly, her eyes closed, recalling fond memories and difficult times "I understand your position and your logic, but love, in my eyes, is completely illogical. I myself could not even fathom how I, a paladin, could love such a man, and in truth, on several occasions I attempted to kill him. Perhaps it was this rivalry that caused our attraction. When we first met, it was merely a paladin doing her job and an assassin doing his, I assigned to protect a politician, and he was out to kill him." *After completing her sentence, Leane relaxes her guard and continues "I'd rather not delve into the entire story, but as it turns out, the politician was an evil wizard, concealing his corrupt nature. When I found out, it was too late and I was bound, and chained above a pit of acid. When Kerrix intervened, he could have simply killed the wizard and let me die, but instead, he let the wizard go, in favor of saving my life. I understood then that he accepted the job not for money, but to save the lives of citizenry. Even though his soul and nature were inexcusably evil, he still had the potential for good." "Seeing this potential, I repeatedly questioned his morals as we hunted down the renegade wizard. More often than not, we came to blows over this, but we managed to continue on after the wizard. Eventually we separated, and when I came upon the ruined tower the mage laired in, I found Kerrix in the same position I was in previously, about to be crushed in an iron maiden, and it was him or the wizard. I recalled how he saved my life, and desperately wanted to return the favor, whilst I knew that killing the wizard and letting him die would rid the world of two evils" "I decided the mage could wait, but when I started toward him, Kerrix told me "Forget me and kill the wizard!", an absolutely selfless suggestion. I followed his word and he died because of it. This single act lead me to believe he had good in him, no matter how strong his evil ways were. I went out of my way to resurrect him, with money from my own pocket, as I knew my church would never help revive an evil man." "In short, though he is evil, he does evil for the cause of good, despite that he does good selfishly. I have neither turned from good nor propagated evil, We have an understanding, that we each have our ways, his selfish, mine selfless. We recognize that if we were in a situation where it was a choice between our beloved and innocent lives; I would allow him to die for the sake of others, while he would save me and let innocents die. Neither one of us can contradict our nature, merely how we choose to live with it. Tyr has seen fit to bless our union, our wedding was held in the temple and performed by the high priest, and that is why I believe I have not turned away from any of my beliefs."
Comus 06-21-07, 07:24 PM	Leane: What can I say except that I hope your soul isn't damned because of your association with that assassin? I'm glad you could do good, but... *sigh* He's your problem, not mine. If he was my problem to judge, he would be buried in a shallow grave. I'll have to trust that you will deal with him if... no, when it is needed.
Hydryh 06-21-07, 07:47 PM	I ask, what do you think of me? It sounds strange, but from my outward appearance and my... err... particular 'presence' if you will, what opinion have you formed of me? what judgement have you rendered? Before anyone gets uppity, there's a point I promise" So far, I would assume that you bear the blood of a demon or devil, and that you make money off of killing others. My first impression is not a good one.
Hydryh 06-21-07, 07:48 PM	Would you belive that good is a point of view, and that many truth Paladins cling to depend greatly on there own points of view? No.
Hydryh 06-21-07, 07:52 PM	Rather than debate on the nature of good and evil, and the superiority of each, can we not accept the need for both? What is good without evil, except stagnant? What is evil without good, except hopeless? Maharai Grimm Human Rogue/Chameleon Without Evil, all that Good loses is being impressive. I for one would welcome a world in which a man who risked his own life to help those around him was regarded as the norm. You are however right in saying that Evil without Good is hopeless, to a degree mortal minds are not meant to fathom.
Hydryh 06-21-07, 08:09 PM	"Now, fellow paladins. I ask your thoughts on me. While I believe that I certainly deserve death for all I have done, there are innocent and goodly folk whom I protect, and they do not deserve pain and death. In essence, my lords, I ask you of my right to live." That right is one I will defend myself. To see a blackguard turn from evil is a rarity; the same is true of those bearing the blood of fiends. For a person carrying both burdens to shake off the shackles of evil is a wondrous thing indeed, and I for one am glad to welcome you onto our shared path.
BoringInfoGuy 06-21-07, 08:15 PM	"I don't think it's a dilemma at all. A person is the sum of his memories... when they're destroyed, so is his personality. It's just the same as if he'd been killed, and a new man in his place. If I couldn't see any evil on his soul, and if I couldn't detect any magic about him, I'd say he was being given a second chance, and leave it at that. The problem I have with this is simply that memory loss is often not permanent. His memories are likely lost, not destroyed. "My real dilemma in that case would be: Do you tell him, so he can keep from turning to evil again? Or do you keep his past a secret, and risk his learning it from some other source, or being killed by a vengeful enemy (or ally), or even recovering his memory? I think I'd have to consult a good cleric, in any case; they know more about knocks on the head and loss of memory than I do. Maybe there's something that can be done to ensure he doesn't go back... if he's told, and if he's a good man, he probably won't want to." Well, as I said also said to Comus, he was told of his past, and was greatly disturbed. What I didn't have a chance to say earlier is the extreme hatred those hunting him had for him. When they attacked, good men would throw their lives away to kill him. The leader turned out to be his brother in law, seeking to avenge the death of his sister and her children. They did not believe that he had really lost his memory. Another, a person very similar to a paladin - but by a different title - did not care. Her belief was that even if he had lost his memories, his sins had not disappeared. A lapse in his memory was not enough to forgive him the many deaths he had caused. The story is not clear, but I believe that she too, lost those she cared for by his hands. How did he react? By trying to keep safe those who he cared for. And by sinking into depression. At night, he found himself drinking heavily, to drown out the dread that he may turn on his new family as well. He was afraid of himself. Can you imagine it? The thought that at any time, your old memories could return, and you could kill everyone you care for? Do you hope that if they do return, somehow, you could retain your present self, and keep the ideals you now hold? Do you dare hope that a few months of a new life can withstand a lifetime of memory? What do you do if your greatest enemy could be no further away then a mirrors reflection? And what would you do if this man was within reach of your sword strike? Kill a man who is by the limits of his existence innocent? Or let go a man who could again become the worst killer you have ever known? If there is some way to prevent his memory from returning, then I would do so. That is not a power of the paladin. And if I leave to seek a cleric, then what of the chance that the darkness would return before I? And what if the cleric has no spells or techniques to quell the return of memory? I ask because I lack a suitable answer. I do think I know what actions I would take. But the rightness of them eludes me. Part of my teachings was "When in doubt, it is better to take action, even if it turns out to be the wrong action, instead of standing idle."
maharai23 06-21-07, 10:37 PM	The 'flaws' which you find in Good & Law, weakness and complacency, depend upon the intervention of evil and chaos. What would be lost without chaos and evil would not be needed without chaos and evil. Ergo the loss of chaos and evil has no true detriment. All you have proven is that you do not understand Good. So understand this, Evil is by definition a bad thing that all is better without. If it's existance is not a blight upon the world, it is not evil. Any philosophy that seeks to glorify evil is deluded at best and corrupt at worst. Tread lightly. - Aorle Kar. Tread lightly? Or what? You shall strike me with blade for speaking with word? I could vanish into any of a hundred shadows, never to be seen again... Unless that which needs balancing is you. For evil and chaos will never truly die, so long as man is fallible. And all men are. Paladins included. Any who deny this... are liars. Perhaps the heavens and the hells can create creatures so truly in harmony with their nature that their will in it is unshakeable. What better example of Chaos and suffering will you find than a Balor? What better example of tyranny than a Pit Fiend? What is a more noble example of goodness than a Solar? These creatures are absolutes. Perfection of their ethos. Incapable of balance. Yet this plane, lies at the middle of all. It is the constant, eternal battleground between good and evil, order and chaos. Every single creation of this plane is infused with all of this. To some, the call of one is stronger than another, but the call is always there. That mix, that conflict inside me, inside you, is what makes us human. The strife against adversity... And there will always be adversity. Always another challenge to best, another hill to climb. And as long as good endures, hope shall never die in that adversity... And as long as order exists, the howling bays of chaos shall be kept at bay... But never will where you stand today be owned by one or the other... For our world is at the center of everything... And we, humans and the rest of mankind... We are the balance of good and evil, order and chaos. The wars are fought over our souls, and man is too amorous a creature to stop providing the gods with ever a new soul to judge. - Maharai Grimm - Human Chameleon
maharai23 06-21-07, 10:49 PM	The problem I have with this is simply that memory loss is often not permanent. His memories are likely lost, not destroyed. Well, as I said also said to Comus, he was told of his past, and was greatly disturbed. What I didn't have a chance to say earlier is the extreme hatred those hunting him had for him. When they attacked, good men would throw their lives away to kill him. The leader turned out to be his brother in law, seeking to avenge the death of his sister and her children. They did not believe that he had really lost his memory. Another, a person very similar to a paladin - but by a different title - did not care. Her belief was that even if he had lost his memories, his sins had not disappeared. A lapse in his memory was not enough to forgive him the many deaths he had caused. The story is not clear, but I believe that she too, lost those she cared for by his hands. How did he react? By trying to keep safe those who he cared for. And by sinking into depression. At night, he found himself drinking heavily, to drown out the dread that he may turn on his new family as well. He was afraid of himself. Can you imagine it? The thought that at any time, your old memories could return, and you could kill everyone you care for? Do you hope that if they do return, somehow, you could retain your present self, and keep the ideals you now hold? Do you dare hope that a few months of a new life can withstand a lifetime of memory? What do you do if your greatest enemy could be no further away then a mirrors reflection? And what would you do if this man was within reach of your sword strike? Kill a man who is by the limits of his existence innocent? Or let go a man who could again become the worst killer you have ever known? If there is some way to prevent his memory from returning, then I would do so. That is not a power of the paladin. And if I leave to seek a cleric, then what of the chance that the darkness would return before I? And what if the cleric has no spells or techniques to quell the return of memory? I ask because I lack a suitable answer. I do think I know what actions I would take. But the rightness of them eludes me. Part of my teachings was "When in doubt, it is better to take action, even if it turns out to be the wrong action, instead of standing idle." Truly a troubling tale... And yet, in the same breath, truly a tale of the potential of man. Man is shaped by nothing more than his desires and his experiences. A man of pure evil, when given that second chance, may choose noble peace. And if the memories should return? Such is the nature of the chaos within us all, crashing in, and taking all of the order we have in this world, and perhaps ebbing and, frightfully enough, allowing him to confront the man in the mirror. When that happens, his test of wills shall begin, and only his desires will choose the outcome. My best advice is that evil redeemed would be better than evil destroyed, in the eyes of good, correct? Give this man enough good... Enough of a taste of all the joys that trust and fellowship can bring, so that when he must wage that war with himself, the good within him will have a shield to protect him from the stabs of evil. The chaos brought into this man's life changed his views from evil to good... Is there no room in the paladin's code for redemption and mercy? For forgiveness and atonement? Can this man not have, at least, the opportunity to fight that battle, and let the chips fall as they may? Change is the only constant. You would do well to remember that. - Maharai Grimm - Human Chameleon
darkneolink 06-21-07, 11:01 PM	Tread lightly? Or what? You shall strike me with blade for speaking with word? I could vanish into any of a hundred shadows, never to be seen again... Unless that which needs balancing is you. For evil and chaos will never truly die, so long as man is fallible. And all men are. Paladins included. Any who deny this... are liars. Perhaps the heavens and the hells can create creatures so truly in harmony with their nature that their will in it is unshakeable. What better example of Chaos and suffering will you find than a Balor? What better example of tyranny than a Pit Fiend? What is a more noble example of goodness than a Solar? These creatures are absolutes. Perfection of their ethos. Incapable of balance. Yet this plane, lies at the middle of all. It is the constant, eternal battleground between good and evil, order and chaos. Every single creation of this plane is infused with all of this. To some, the call of one is stronger than another, but the call is always there. That mix, that conflict inside me, inside you, is what makes us human. The strife against adversity... And there will always be adversity. Always another challenge to best, another hill to climb. And as long as good endures, hope shall never die in that adversity... And as long as order exists, the howling bays of chaos shall be kept at bay... But never will where you stand today be owned by one or the other... For our world is at the center of everything... And we, humans and the rest of mankind... We are the balance of good and evil, order and chaos. The wars are fought over our souls, and man is too amorous a creature to stop providing the gods with ever a new soul to judge. - Maharai Grimm - Human Chameleon Calm down my friend... and you're right about the Balor pitfiend and solar... they are the embodiments of their planes. But you said that we humans... and we elves... and we dwarves... and we gonems... and we yaddayaddayadda are the balanca of good and evil... law and chaos... and IS UP TO US to move it to one side... Good and Law... in that order... is the best side you know. And don't worry... no one will try to smite you in this place... unless you dec ide to attack either us or the inocents around... so please take a seat and have a drink -Sir igneo Argentlam Paladin of the silverflame
Thegans 06-21-07, 11:03 PM	"Okay, I'll give my opinion first, then Ian will answer you second (or whenever he gets to it). Got it? Good boy, now don‘t get upset with me. On a planet called "Earth" they have what they call the "Peter Principle". It states that "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence." This kingly paladin you talk about must have been good at his previous jobs so every one naturaly assumed that he'd make a good king. As king this otherwise good man screwed up and made things worse by mistake. Sorry, but that's the way every world works. That's no reason to sell your soul. -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse. " "I know of dirt I have visited it on more then one occasion and despite it being screws up I like the common government system. As for this Peter Principle the only qualification the paladin had to become king was that he was the son of the previous king," Simul said. "But, not meaning to offend you, I don't think you really hate noblemen. I think you hate the people who, when they get the power and status of the noblemen who mistreated you and others like you, will act the way those people did. It just seems like they're worse than the rest because they've got more power to do evil with. Somebody with less power can be just as evil, but just won't be able to do as much harm to others. There's good and evil at every level of society. It's just that, the more power you have, the more evident it gets to be which side you're on." "I don't care about good and evil. What right do they have to their positions? A birth right they get to sit on a throne and legally steal the property of those that earned it because they got lucky. I would rather have a blood thirsty usrupter at least usrupter has a slightly higher qualification then mommy was the queen. Thats why I am not an enemy of Baator. You have to actaully work to reach that point instead of just comming out of the right persons ass," Simul said. I would not know what the gods think. As for rewards, if I wanted rewards I would simply run my county, rather than riding off to subsist on trail rations for months at a time as I crawl through cold, dank cave that smell... Well, they smell quite bad. I do what I do because I am driven to help those in need, not for any gain of my own. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E. "I am begining to find you less qualified than if you simply gained your position from birth. You doing the same thing most nobles do gaining their rewards while ignoring the responsiblities that they should have. If I ever meet you on your world you will suffer a fate worse than you will ever be capable of imagining," Simul said. *After taking in your words, Kerrix chuckles and sheaths his sword "No no, there is no illusion, no cursed heritage, and I certainly can't tell you I'm a good person, at least not in the way you're thinking. I am a Tiefling, but was not born this way. One fine day in the western heartlands of Faerun, I was walking the length of the Boareskyr Bridge, attempting to find my way home. I was just a child of twelve then. Along the way, I was attacked by a troll" *At this point, Kerrix's eyes turn towards the floor a hateful fire brewing inside "I faced two choices, die, in a very painful and miserable fashion at the hands of said troll; OR I could jump in the river, that part of which had been tainted by the essence of the dark god of murder Bhaal in the Time of Troubles. The river was in all likelyhood going to kill me, but I jumped in anyway. The poisonous water did not kill me, but seeped into my soul, transforming me into something... a bit less than human" *Kerrix's toothy smile returns "The question here now is, do you view me in the same light? do you think it fair to judge me so, knowing that I faced a life or death choice, and had this curse forced upon me? Do you still think I deserve to die? Am I responsible for this taint on my soul?" "If you had parents which it seems you did I would say that it is their fault for being so irresponsible. I would also place the blame on those that left the river to be poisoned. As for your curse I will not pass judgement because the only good I have in me is towards fellow orphans," Simul said,"And the small ammount of celestial blood." *The tiefling raises his eyebrow and his voice "The heavens judge me? Because I, as a twelve year old boy, terrified out of his mind, chose the path that was less likely to get me eaten? Try not to take offense from my tone, but how can you come to such a conclusion?" *Kerrix folds his arms across his chest and closes his eyes for a moment "I will admit, I am an assassin, and my ways are blatant and selfish, but perhaps more complex than just good or evil. I kill for two reasons: gain and loss. Killing to gain, in my case, means I kill to accomplish whatever goal I deem necessary. I do not kill innocents, and I do not kill wantonly, but I am a murderer. When I kill for a loss, I am doing something selfless for selfish reasons, such as killing trolls, aberrations or demons. I hate demons, and devils, and I kill them as fervently as any of you good knights. I have my own code, and I have no qualms about helping others when I want and how I want, and I like kids, I'd never hurt a kid" *Kerrix giggles slightly, his grin renewed, but now more playful "I expected as much. Rather than retort, I have something else to say. You holy knights may think I am here to undermine your beliefs, but I have no interest in such a thing. Honestly, I have a great deal of respect for paladins and their will power, as well as their honor. I fully understand the paladin's life, having fought beside my beloved Leane, a pa-" *A tall, regal looking young woman steps forth, interrupting Kerrix. She wears chainmail of shining mithral and a cape of brilliant sapphire colored silk, a greatsword on her back "I'll jump in here love. I am Leane Stormlance, Aasimar Paladin of Tyr, and wife of Kerrix. To be honest it interests me greatly in what you think of him and myself now. I apologize for playing his game again, but it was Kerrix's idea to come here anyway, and I do enjoy conversing with fellow knights on such moral issues" (OOC: I hope it's alright to introduce a second character) "The heavens don't care about the circumstances because the gods don't know anything. They would have expected you to find a third way that a child could not possibly find," Simul said. "I concur," a voice said. Another boy was standing near Simul. He seemed very young but his eyes seemed eons old. "Tymatharial, I see the invisiblity spell wore out," Simul said. "I told you to call me Tim. If you can't pronounce Tyyymaaatthaaaarrriiaall don't try. The only reason I tolerate you is because I still need your help to reclaim my true aboleth body," Tim said, " As for the heavens forsaking some one they are impermanent any death that last long enough for the judgement to matter is failure." *Leane smiles softly, her eyes closed, recalling fond memories and difficult times "I understand your position and your logic, but love, in my eyes, is completely illogical. I myself could not even fathom how I, a paladin, could love such a man, and in truth, on several occasions I attempted to kill him. Perhaps it was this rivalry that caused our attraction. When we first met, it was merely a paladin doing her job and an assassin doing his, I assigned to protect a politician, and he was out to kill him." *After completing her sentence, Leane relaxes her guard and continues "I'd rather not delve into the entire story, but as it turns out, the politician was an evil wizard, concealing his corrupt nature. When I found out, it was too late and I was bound, and chained above a pit of acid. When Kerrix intervened, he could have simply killed the wizard and let me die, but instead, he let the wizard go, in favor of saving my life. I understood then that he accepted the job not for money, but to save the lives of citizenry. Even though his soul and nature were inexcusably evil, he still had the potential for good." "Seeing this potential, I repeatedly questioned his morals as we hunted down the renegade wizard. More often than not, we came to blows over this, but we managed to continue on after the wizard. Eventually we separated, and when I came upon the ruined tower the mage laired in, I found Kerrix in the same position I was in previously, about to be crushed in an iron maiden, and it was him or the wizard. I recalled how he saved my life, and desperately wanted to return the favor, whilst I knew that killing the wizard and letting him die would rid the world of two evils" "I decided the mage could wait, but when I started toward him, Kerrix told me "Forget me and kill the wizard!", an absolutely selfless suggestion. I followed his word and he died because of it. This single act lead me to believe he had good in him, no matter how strong his evil ways were. I went out of my way to resurrect him, with money from my own pocket, as I knew my church would never help revive an evil man." "In short, though he is evil, he does evil for the cause of good, despite that he does good selfishly. I have neither turned from good nor propagated evil, We have an understanding, that we each have our ways, his selfish, mine selfless. We recognize that if we were in a situation where it was a choice between our beloved and innocent lives; I would allow him to die for the sake of others, while he would save me and let innocents die. Neither one of us can contradict our nature, merely how we choose to live with it. Tyr has seen fit to bless our union, our wedding was held in the temple and performed by the high priest, and that is why I believe I have not turned away from any of my beliefs." A chest appears near Simul and he pushes it towards the couple. An imp appears near Simul and begins to complain. "There is always option three. There are several scrolls of true ressurection, miracle, and about four contingent ressurections. I have wanted to get rid of them for a while," Simul said, "Until old ages comes death is simply a minor inconvenience. I died at least four times already." "Those are perfectly good spells your wasting," the imp said. "I stole them on my own and I will not use spells granted by the gods no matter what," Simul said. "You're wasting perfectly good spells. You could sell them but your just...,' the imp said. "Calm down the scrolls are holy and if Simul sells them you would get the blame and the demotion since he would most likely wind up selling them in Baator. That reminds me why do you have an imp familiar?" Tim said "I see your point. Hey wait a minunte I am not his familiar I am his parol officer," the imp said. "Apparently one of Levistus devils tried to claim my soul despite having no claim on it because he expected a reward since I destroyed about 15 of his temples. Long story short I apparently pushed the devil into the river styx and Glasya pulled some strings to get me out of trouble," Simul said. "That reminds me but with the odd way alignment works doesnt spending time with an aligned outsider move you towards that alignment," Tim said. 'If thats the case they should be going neutral soon," Simul said. "Your acting like your happy about that," the imp said. "Allignment is a tool and nothing more," Simul said Leane: What can I say except that I hope your soul isn't damned because of your association with that assassin? I'm glad you could do good, but... *sigh* He's your problem, not mine. If he was my problem to judge, he would be buried in a shallow grave. I'll have to trust that you will deal with him if... no, when it is needed. "When the Abandoned rearrange the world after overthrowing the gods themselves I will make sure that you are in an endless ammount of situations so horrible that they would make the heart of the abyss seem like a blissful paradise," Simul said. "If the child is done this aboleth traped in a human body has a few questions. The first question is why are are you drawn to heroics when you can do the same ammount of good with out putting your selves at such risk? Also what is your opinion on spells that trap souls I can guess that you would find them deplorable under most situations but if you have seen the B-Bit theatre world and were sent there you would obviously want to kill this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020814) person (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020928) but would it be worth risking him becoming (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040224) this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040228) thing (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040320) again (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040323)?" Tim said. The boy claiming to be an aboleth let out a sigh and closed his eyes for several minutes. It did not seem as if he noticed the time passing. Eventually he opened his eyes once again. "Yes one more question I have. If your familiar with stories from the prime material called Earth would you say that Simul resembles a slightly more evil version of Robin Hood?" Tim asked. Simul begins to mumble under his breath,"Where is that half-fiend druid and his sphere of annihilation when you need them?" "Ok maybe slightly is underestimating it," Tim said.
maharai23 06-21-07, 11:57 PM	Calm down my friend... and you're right about the Balor pitfiend and solar... they are the embodiments of their planes. But you said that we humans... and we elves... and we dwarves... and we gonems... and we yaddayaddayadda are the balanca of good and evil... law and chaos... and IS UP TO US to move it to one side... Good and Law... in that order... is the best side you know. And don't worry... no one will try to smite you in this place... unless you dec ide to attack either us or the inocents around... so please take a seat and have a drink -Sir igneo Argentlam Paladin of the silverflame Then keep your foolish and impertinent brethren from making claims backed by the false bravado of a room of peers, and I'll keep from speaking to them in that manner. You say that what you do to tip the scale to good is what matters. I agree. I also believe that what is done by the assassin to further the cause of evil matters. Perhaps not sought for, but it makes a difference, as surely as the sun rises and sets each day... The celestial planes, the abyss, the hells, they are immutable. They do not change. They are as they ever were, and as they ever will be. Bastions of the essence that makes them up. It is this plane, this world, where change matters. This world is the only one where anyone can truly make a difference. This world, the world of balance, that is most important. For here is where destiny is not designed, where fate is not pre-ordained. THIS is where the balance happens, and only there, in the conflict and the imperfection and the adversity... Only here, is choice so keenly felt. Is not the destiny of man's choice, therefore, the most important thing of all? The balance that gives it? Without that balance, man becomes immutable, unchanging... Robbed of will. Thus, balance, in all things, must be preserved. For the sake of those who would freely choose to walk the path of good. Or evil. As they choose. - Maharai Grimm - Human Chameleon
darkneolink 06-22-07, 12:09 AM	Yeah my friends... but you have to understand that sometimes we paladins are a little bit passionate-Igneo said while smiling I agree with you in some parts and I will opose some of your arguments with some of my own... if you don't mind. What an assasins does for the cause of evil yeah... it atters... because the cause of good must stop it... because thats the good thing to do... to avoid evil... and to stop evil... because evil destroy itself and others. And a world that robes its people of free will is not a world of both Good and Law... is a world of Law and Evil... in truly good world... an Utopia of Good... because is really hard to attain it... people will have their own free will... but they will realize how the acts they take affects people around them... so if they are truly Good... they would avoid hurting themselves and others... that would be a nice place to live, isn't it? -Sir igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame
Thegans 06-22-07, 12:50 AM	Yeah my friends... but you have to understand that sometimes we paladins are a little bit passionate-Igneo said while smiling I agree with you in some parts and I will opose some of your arguments with some of my own... if you don't mind. What an assasins does for the cause of evil yeah... it atters... because the cause of good must stop it... because thats the good thing to do... to avoid evil... and to stop evil... because evil destroy itself and others. And a world that robes its people of free will is not a world of both Good and Law... is a world of Law and Evil... in truly good world... an Utopia of Good... because is really hard to attain it... people will have their own free will... but they will realize how the acts they take affects people around them... so if they are truly Good... they would avoid hurting themselves and others... that would be a nice place to live, isn't it? -Sir igneo Argentlam paladin of the silver flame "There is something I learned from being a thief. It doesn't count if you don't get caught. ," Simul said. 'Stop that we don't need you turning chaotic," the imp said. "Besides lawful evil societies don't care what you do as long as your also capable of doing what your suppouse to do," Simul said. "That's better," the imp said. "Wait I thought it was if you can't say anything nice steal their shoes and teleport a mile away so that you get to insult them and they have to run a mile with no shoes," Tim said, "Althought I am trying to remember if your suppouse to be wearing the shoes."
Stormbrand 06-22-07, 07:12 AM	Tread lightly? Or what? You shall strike me with blade for speaking with word? I could vanish into any of a hundred shadows, never to be seen again... Unless that which needs balancing is you. For evil and chaos will never truly die, so long as man is fallible. And all men are. Paladins included. Any who deny this... are liars. Perhaps the heavens and the hells can create creatures so truly in harmony with their nature that their will in it is unshakeable. What better example of Chaos and suffering will you find than a Balor? What better example of tyranny than a Pit Fiend? What is a more noble example of goodness than a Solar? These creatures are absolutes. Perfection of their ethos. Incapable of balance. Yet this plane, lies at the middle of all. It is the constant, eternal battleground between good and evil, order and chaos. Every single creation of this plane is infused with all of this. To some, the call of one is stronger than another, but the call is always there. That mix, that conflict inside me, inside you, is what makes us human. The strife against adversity... And there will always be adversity. Always another challenge to best, another hill to climb. And as long as good endures, hope shall never die in that adversity... And as long as order exists, the howling bays of chaos shall be kept at bay... But never will where you stand today be owned by one or the other... For our world is at the center of everything... And we, humans and the rest of mankind... We are the balance of good and evil, order and chaos. The wars are fought over our souls, and man is too amorous a creature to stop providing the gods with ever a new soul to judge. - Maharai Grimm - Human Chameleon Am I expected to apologise for a threat of your own invention? What I warn you away from is a dangerous path you seem to follow, one which glorifies evil and chaos. Such a path will lead to innocent blood on your hands. As of yet, I have no reason to strike you down. Only the guilty need fear me. Nothing ever needs balancing. If Good is unbalanced, then the imbalance is to welcomed. That there will always be adversity is reason to keep on fighting against evil, not to give up, not to make the surrender that is 'balance'.
Stormbrand 06-22-07, 07:38 AM	Calm down my friend... I took no offence to the Chameleon's outburst. Then keep your foolish and impertinent brethren from making claims backed by the false bravado of a room of peers, and I'll keep from speaking to them in that manner. And what claims would those be? What false bravado? *raises eyebrow* You presume much of my motives and intent.
Maekrix_Waere 06-22-07, 02:48 PM	(OOC: then the paladin has nothing to say to you, good day ;) Honestly, I am not interested in OOC debates ). I hope you can forgive my frustration, but more and more it appears that you are using the arguement that I am posting things OOC to avoid arguing my points. Seriously, any point I make OOC can be made IC by merely altering a few words. :banghead: Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're doing, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm just a total imbecile. Please though, just humor me. I'm getting fed up with trying to convert everything I say into IC terms. Trustworthiness and integrity are parts of honour, true, but so is fighting fair. Poisitoxins and Ravages are an advantage that those who they are designed to combat can not also harness. Before you cry "They can do the same thing with poisons," let me reply that ANYONE can use poisons, so the advantage they give can be harnessed by ANYONE. The creatures which are affected by Poisitoxins/Ravages (99.999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999% of the time) can NOT use them against their would-be assailants. Listen, I am not here to argue to finer points of honour, I am merely arguing that, if we are to be led to believe that Poisons are dishonourable, then we must also accept that Ravages and Poisitoxins are also dishonourable. The arguement that they are "Holy" has no hold on this arguement because honour does not fall on the axis of Good-Evil...it falls on the axis of Law-Chaos. Also, the arguement that "Poisons are Evil, and that is why Paladins cannot use them," is flat out wrong...there are SEVERAL examples throughout the Planes which show that. There, that has just been made applicable IC by replacing the words "in the Core Rulebooks" with "throughout the Planes," and switching around ~5 words. Now have your paladin answer it...Please! Once again, I apologize for being angry, but this is becoming increasingly frustrating for me.
Stormbrand 06-22-07, 03:15 PM	Leane: What can I say except that I hope your soul isn't damned because of your association with that assassin? I'm glad you could do good, but... *sigh* He's your problem, not mine. If he was my problem to judge, he would be buried in a shallow grave. I'll have to trust that you will deal with him if... no, when it is needed. Well spoken. *Leane smiles softly, her eyes closed, recalling fond memories and difficult times "I understand your position and your logic, but love, in my eyes, is completely illogical. I myself could not even fathom how I, a paladin, could love such a man, and in truth, on several occasions I attempted to kill him. Perhaps it was this rivalry that caused our attraction. When we first met, it was merely a paladin doing her job and an assassin doing his, I assigned to protect a politician, and he was out to kill him." *After completing her sentence, Leane relaxes her guard and continues "I'd rather not delve into the entire story, but as it turns out, the politician was an evil wizard, concealing his corrupt nature. When I found out, it was too late and I was bound, and chained above a pit of acid. When Kerrix intervened, he could have simply killed the wizard and let me die, but instead, he let the wizard go, in favor of saving my life. I understood then that he accepted the job not for money, but to save the lives of citizenry. Even though his soul and nature were inexcusably evil, he still had the potential for good." "Seeing this potential, I repeatedly questioned his morals as we hunted down the renegade wizard. More often than not, we came to blows over this, but we managed to continue on after the wizard. Eventually we separated, and when I came upon the ruined tower the mage laired in, I found Kerrix in the same position I was in previously, about to be crushed in an iron maiden, and it was him or the wizard. I recalled how he saved my life, and desperately wanted to return the favor, whilst I knew that killing the wizard and letting him die would rid the world of two evils" "I decided the mage could wait, but when I started toward him, Kerrix told me "Forget me and kill the wizard!", an absolutely selfless suggestion. I followed his word and he died because of it. This single act lead me to believe he had good in him, no matter how strong his evil ways were. I went out of my way to resurrect him, with money from my own pocket, as I knew my church would never help revive an evil man." "In short, though he is evil, he does evil for the cause of good, despite that he does good selfishly. I have neither turned from good nor propagated evil, We have an understanding, that we each have our ways, his selfish, mine selfless. We recognize that if we were in a situation where it was a choice between our beloved and innocent lives; I would allow him to die for the sake of others, while he would save me and let innocents die. Neither one of us can contradict our nature, merely how we choose to live with it. Tyr has seen fit to bless our union, our wedding was held in the temple and performed by the high priest, and that is why I believe I have not turned away from any of my beliefs." By your account, the death of the politician was just, and no evil was done in seeking his downfall. So that leads me to ask, how else has he earned the stain of evil? We both see a taint in his aura that exists because innocents suffer for his actions. Evil cannot be done for the cause of good, no more than lighting a fire will create ice. With all due respect, my lady, perhaps your feelings cloud your judgement? The man harms innocents, else he would not be evil. No paladin can allow that. Now the god of justice condones the partnership of his champion with a criminal? *Turns to address Kerrix himself,* Recite some of your crimes to us, please. There is no such thing as an innocent evil. - Aorle Kar, Celestial Knight. (OOC: my guess is a very strange setting & DM)
Stormbrand 06-22-07, 03:25 PM	I hope you can forgive my frustration, but more and more it appears that you are using the arguement that I am posting things OOC to avoid arguing my points. Seriously, any point I make OOC can be made IC by merely altering a few words. :banghead: Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're doing, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm just a total imbecile. Please though, just humor me. I'm getting fed up with trying to convert everything I say into IC terms. There, that has just been made applicable IC by replacing the words "in the Core Rulebooks" with "throughout the Planes," and switching around ~5 words. Now have your paladin answer it...Please! Once again, I apologize for being angry, but this is becoming increasingly frustrating for me. (OOC: look below) Listen, I am not here to argue to finer points of honour, ... Once again, we are not (supposed to be) arguing the finer points of honour. (OOC: so what exactly do you want me answer? As far as I see, honour was the whole point of the debate.)
Thegans 06-22-07, 05:06 PM	Well spoken. By your account, the death of the politician was just, and no evil was done in seeking his downfall. So that leads me to ask, how else has he earned the stain of evil? We both see a taint in his aura that exists because innocents suffer for his actions. Evil cannot be done for the cause of good, no more than lighting a fire will create ice. With all due respect, my lady, perhaps your feelings cloud your judgement? The man harms innocents, else he would not be evil. No paladin can allow that. Now the god of justice condones the partnership of his champion with a criminal? *Turns to address Kerrix himself,* Recite some of your crimes to us, please. There is no such thing as an innocent evil. - Aorle Kar, Celestial Knight. (OOC: my guess is a very strange setting & DM) "In theory it is possible the alignment is called neutral but that kind of neutral is hard to grasp even if it is possible. Take your fire and ice metaphor. Could not an epic mage construct a spell that creates a scorching inferno by absorbing the heat from water and or the moisture in the air causing the water to freeze because it is becoming colder. Obviously he is not as evil as he claims to be otherwise the paladin probably fallen by now. Then again I probably don't have that well of a grasp on the concept of allignment since I view it as nothing but a tool," Simul said. "Oh come on you had the perfect example," the imp said. "Actually an innocent evil is possible for example many aboleth are born evil because they have the memories of all thier ancestors. Lets say I regained my body and had a spawn that was sent on land at the moment of its birth. Its mind would carry the sins of an entire line of aboleth while its body would be like a statue. Would that not count or does having an evil mind not count?" Tim asked. In short, though he is evil, he does evil for the cause of good, despite that he does good selfishly. I have neither turned from good nor propagated evil, We have an understanding, that we each have our ways, his selfish, mine selfless. We recognize that if we were in a situation where it was a choice between our beloved and innocent lives; I would allow him to die for the sake of others, while he would save me and let innocents die. Neither one of us can contradict our nature, merely how we choose to live with it. "Something I missed from earlier. There is an inherit paradox in that selfish and selfless thing. Why would you allow him to die for the sake of others is it because you believe they deserve life more or is it because multiple deaths instead of just one would be a greater burdon on your conciousness then one death that you could just fix soon enough? If so doesn't that mean your acting on both a selfless and a selfish desire at the same time. Or perhaps you believe that his reaction would by the same as when he told you to go after the wizard. If so that would mean that you believe he is selfless or that he is selfless when it comes to the lives of the innocent," Simul said. "Ok I have a question for you dumb paladins. Can somebody smite me so I have an exuse to leave my paroley? I would rather be back as a lemure getting choped up by demons then listen to this mutts philisophical babble any longer," the imp said. "Imp what do you expect from someone that is part angel, part demon, and part devil, a thief, and a wizard. If your awnser is not philosphical babble your intellect is lacking," Tim said.
maharai23 06-22-07, 05:23 PM	Am I expected to apologise for a threat of your own invention? What I warn you away from is a dangerous path you seem to follow, one which glorifies evil and chaos. Such a path will lead to innocent blood on your hands. As of yet, I have no reason to strike you down. Only the guilty need fear me. Nothing ever needs balancing. If Good is unbalanced, then the imbalance is to welcomed. That there will always be adversity is reason to keep on fighting against evil, not to give up, not to make the surrender that is 'balance'. And what if I were to tell you that I was guilty? Of a great many things... There is much in the life of any man that he is guilty of. Why, you could not walk through the market and purchase something without dealing with someone who has done evil. I would be willing to be, that at some point, even you are guilty of something. Should you then fear yourself? You know, one of the most powerfully cursed creations I have ever seen was a blade created with a thirst for the blood of the guilty. Without fail, everyone who has claimed that blade has died at his own hand. Point is, sir, in order to find guilt in any man, you need do nothing but look far enough back. You show me a man in here who claims perfection, and I'll show you a liar. And why is no man perfect? Because, by the standards of absolute good, or absolute evil, man is impure, tainted by the other. Every man has fallen, by the standard of complete innocence. Every one. Thus, it is a flawed standard to judge by. What good is it, if everyone is judged wanting? It takes no special person to tell everyone that they've failed the test.
maharai23 06-22-07, 05:34 PM	Well spoken. By your account, the death of the politician was just, and no evil was done in seeking his downfall. So that leads me to ask, how else has he earned the stain of evil? We both see a taint in his aura that exists because innocents suffer for his actions. Evil cannot be done for the cause of good, no more than lighting a fire will create ice. With all due respect, my lady, perhaps your feelings cloud your judgement? The man harms innocents, else he would not be evil. No paladin can allow that. Now the god of justice condones the partnership of his champion with a criminal? *Turns to address Kerrix himself,* Recite some of your crimes to us, please. There is no such thing as an innocent evil. - Aorle Kar, Celestial Knight. (OOC: my guess is a very strange setting & DM) Ah, but you can create houses of ice to keep out the cold... It is an amazing trick that I picked up from barbarian tribes in the north... When the cold is biting, and night is deadly, they build houses of ice, and once built, light fires inside, and in that harsh environment both fire and ice coexist in harmony with one another. Why is it that so many are willing to justify death? For the cause of good, should killing not be a last resort? Something to do when redemption is impossible, or too risky? I've seen few paladins that I consider noble... And I considered them true champions of their cause, not because of their personal virtue, or their deeds, but because every time they drew their blade, they viewed it as failure. Failure on their part. An imperfection in their own heart, such that they had to destroy something. They abhorred violence in any form, and only indulged in it if they truly saw no other solution. That, my friend, is a noble person, dedicated to the cause of good, the hope of man, and the preservation of life. If any among you seek to impress with tales of the demons you've slain, the rights you've wronged, look elsewhere. Good deeds, and righteous slaughter do not impress me. Anyone can be self-righteous. To truly exemplify good, your blade must be stayed in all but the most extreme circumstances. For every time you strike a foe down, you have given up on any hope of turning that foe to your cause. -Maharai Grimm -Human Chameleon
Thegans 06-22-07, 06:04 PM	Ah, but you can create houses of ice to keep out the cold... It is an amazing trick that I picked up from barbarian tribes in the north... When the cold is biting, and night is deadly, they build houses of ice, and once built, light fires inside, and in that harsh environment both fire and ice coexist in harmony with one another. Why is it that so many are willing to justify death? For the cause of good, should killing not be a last resort? Something to do when redemption is impossible, or too risky? I've seen few paladins that I consider noble... And I considered them true champions of their cause, not because of their personal virtue, or their deeds, but because every time they drew their blade, they viewed it as failure. Failure on their part. An imperfection in their own heart, such that they had to destroy something. They abhorred violence in any form, and only indulged in it if they truly saw no other solution. That, my friend, is a noble person, dedicated to the cause of good, the hope of man, and the preservation of life. If any among you seek to impress with tales of the demons you've slain, the rights you've wronged, look elsewhere. Good deeds, and righteous slaughter do not impress me. Anyone can be self-righteous. To truly exemplify good, your blade must be stayed in all but the most extreme circumstances. For every time you strike a foe down, you have given up on any hope of turning that foe to your cause. -Maharai Grimm -Human Chameleon "I may have only spent some time with Simul but during this time despite being with another evil person I have killed less because of the form I am stuck in. When I had my aboleth body I would kill a lot more than I do now. The only goal I had was to consume their knowledge something I can not due in this form making it seem pointless to me. I had troble understanding why until I met a person that Simul once met. She would never kill unless the person could not be kept alive safely even through means such as flesh to stone. She told me that killing evil is pointless since once the evil soul dies it will become a fiend and killing a good soul is pointless since one it dies it would simply become a celestial," Tim said.
Maekrix_Waere 06-22-07, 06:55 PM	(OOC: look below) (OOC: so what exactly do you want me answer? As far as I see, honour was the whole point of the debate.) The arguement was supposed about a SPECIFIC point of honour, about Poisons and related substances, not about honour as a whole. I was arguing that Poisitoxins and Ravages are just as great an infringement of honour as Poisons. I also argued that we know that Poisons are (OOC: in the RAW) an infringement of honour, and not of holiness, because there are numerous examples which show that Poison Use is NOT an Evil act. Somehow, that got twisted and turned into an arguement about honour as a whole, and likely both of us are at fault for that, but I am hoping to get this (particular) discussion back on topic.
Devil Gnasher 06-22-07, 07:07 PM	You see a large-sized brown bear clad in a ribbed ivory breastplate with hardened dark wood leg greaves with arm greaves and braces made from large dark-green scales. Over this armor you see a medium green wool jacket under an orange animal hide. Around this bear's neck you notice a string of teeth and other bit of bone and material collected from powerful undead creatures. In his right hand is a pike with an ebony shaft and adamantine-silver alloy tip. In this bear's scabbard is an ivory colored broadsword. The Bear is none other than Barthold Dehmer. Barthold Dehmer said aloud, "I got tired of sitting in the shadows during this talk and I decided to come closer so some of you can hear me better." Turns around and glares it the obnoxious imp then says, "So, now all of you see what I look like. On with the discussion." To all standing around him on the issue of Simul. "I'll respond to these remarks friends. No need to worry. Not yet at least." "I know of dirt I have visited it on more then one occasion and despite it being screws up I like the common government system. As for this Peter Principle the only qualification the paladin had to become king was that he was the son of the previous king," Simul said. "I said that the king you over through was a good man, not a competent one." "I don't care about good and evil. What right do they have to their positions? A birth right they get to sit on a throne and legally steal the property of those that earned it because they got lucky. "What pray tell you think Mammon does? He actually has the legal authority to mug visitors and his own citizens in the streets of Minaros all because Mammon, the Marquis of Avarice is its Lord. How does that make devils better than any oppressive human monarch you know?" I would rather have a blood thirsty usrupter at least usrupter has a slightly higher qualification then mommy was the queen. Thats why I am not an enemy of Baator. You have to actaully work to reach that point instead of just comming out of the right persons ass," Simul said. Barthold starts giggling and chortling, incapable of restraining his laughter. "Are you talking about the same Nine Hells I am, or some other Inferno!? Hell is full of nepotism, favoritism and ass-kissing. In fact, along with cruelty, brutality, back stabbing and absolute service to the Infernal State those are the prime means of advancement in the Nine Hells." "I am begining to find you less qualified than if you simply gained your position from birth. You doing the same thing most nobles do gaining their rewards while ignoring the responsiblities that they should have. If I ever meet you on your world you will suffer a fate worse than you will ever be capable of imagining," Simul said. "Did you listen to what Sir Boydson said, or do you have this woman's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) signature ability? Yup, apperently even you have the power to jump to any illogical conclusion you want." "Yes one more question I have. If your familiar with stories from the prime material called Earth would you say that Simul resembles a slightly more evil version of Robin Hood?" Tim asked. Simul begins to mumble under his breath,"Where is that half-fiend druid and his sphere of annihilation when you need them?" "Ok maybe slightly is underestimating it," Tim said. "Okay Simul and "Tim", not only are you evil, you're certifiably insane."
Stormbrand 06-22-07, 07:34 PM	"Actually an innocent evil is possible for example many aboleth are born evil because they have the memories of all thier ancestors. Lets say I regained my body and had a spawn that was sent on land at the moment of its birth. Its mind would carry the sins of an entire line of aboleth while its body would be like a statue. Would that not count or does having an evil mind not count?" Tim asked. Well, my knowledge does not cover aboleth. What I would surmise is that a fresh aboleth would begin with a malevolent mindset that would nigh-immediately begin to either enslave or harm innocents. Evil does not require success or competence. And what if I were to tell you that I was guilty? Of a great many things... There is much in the life of any man that he is guilty of. Why, you could not walk through the market and purchase something without dealing with someone who has done evil. I would be willing to be, that at some point, even you are guilty of something. Should you then fear yourself? You know, one of the most powerfully cursed creations I have ever seen was a blade created with a thirst for the blood of the guilty. Without fail, everyone who has claimed that blade has died at his own hand. Point is, sir, in order to find guilt in any man, you need do nothing but look far enough back. You show me a man in here who claims perfection, and I'll show you a liar. And why is no man perfect? Because, by the standards of absolute good, or absolute evil, man is impure, tainted by the other. Every man has fallen, by the standard of complete innocence. Every one. Thus, it is a flawed standard to judge by. What good is it, if everyone is judged wanting? It takes no special person to tell everyone that they've failed the test. Again, you attribute your own views to others. Do you bring harm to the innocent? Do you misuse what scant power chameleons possess? Are your dark acts still part of your nature, unrepented and continued? That is the standard. Why is it that so many are willing to justify death? For the cause of good, should killing not be a last resort? Something to do when redemption is impossible, or too risky? I've seen few paladins that I consider noble... And I considered them true champions of their cause, not because of their personal virtue, or their deeds, but because every time they drew their blade, they viewed it as failure. Failure on their part. An imperfection in their own heart, such that they had to destroy something. They abhorred violence in any form, and only indulged in it if they truly saw no other solution. That, my friend, is a noble person, dedicated to the cause of good, the hope of man, and the preservation of life. If any among you seek to impress with tales of the demons you've slain, the rights you've wronged, look elsewhere. Good deeds, and righteous slaughter do not impress me. Anyone can be self-righteous. To truly exemplify good, your blade must be stayed in all but the most extreme circumstances. For every time you strike a foe down, you have given up on any hope of turning that foe to your cause. -Maharai Grimm -Human Chameleon Good deeds do not impress you? Wrongs righted come second to staying a blade? That is not good exemplified there, but pacifism.
Stormbrand 06-22-07, 08:12 PM	The arguement was supposed about a SPECIFIC point of honour, about Poisons and related substances, not about honour as a whole. I was arguing that Poisitoxins and Ravages are just as great an infringement of honour as Poisons. I also argued that we know that Poisons are (OOC: in the RAW) an infringement of honour, and not of holiness, because there are numerous examples which show that Poison Use is NOT an Evil act. Somehow, that got twisted and turned into an arguement about honour as a whole, and likely both of us are at fault for that, but I am hoping to get this (particular) discussion back on topic. Well, stranger, I find most of the uses for poison to be dishonourable, enough to justify a blanket refusal to use that tool. Positoxins and ravages are sacred instruments that are the bane of undead and evil, more advanced but much the same as holy water (OOC: counting the RAW description as metagaming). Of course, this matter depends heavily on our views of honour. To me, a dishonourable act would be something that would make me think less of that person. Using tactical advantages in combat would not do that. Honour is not pointless rules. Let me say that no fight I know have has been fair. My sword and armour are hallowed steel, my skill in battle is seldom matched on the field, miracles of protection and healing stem from my celestial pact. It is a rare foe who can match me in these.
Devil Gnasher 06-22-07, 09:42 PM	"I have a question for you Sir Boydson. Would you agree with this fellow on the issue of Good and Evil (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3600004&postcount=54)? I would, but what are your thoughts on the matter?"
Thegans 06-23-07, 01:09 AM	You see a large-sized brown bear clad in a ribbed ivory breastplate with hardened dark wood leg greaves with arm greaves and braces made from large dark-green scales. Over this armor you see a medium green wool jacket under an orange animal hide. Around this bear's neck you notice a string of teeth and other bit of bone and material collected from powerful undead creatures. In his right hand is a pike with an ebony shaft and adamantine-silver alloy tip. In this bear's scabbard is an ivory colored broadsword. The Bear is none other than Barthold Dehmer. Barthold Dehmer said aloud, "I got tired of sitting in the shadows during this talk and I decided to come closer so some of you can hear me better." Turns around and glares it the obnoxious imp then says, "So, now all of you see what I look like. On with the discussion." To all standing around him on the issue of Simul. "I'll respond to these remarks friends. No need to worry. Not yet at least." "I said that the king you over through was a good man, not a competent one." "I don't care if he was good, bad, blind, crippled, idiotic, a pawn for someone else, a super genious, or even a god. He was born into his positon sure Baator is screwed up but at least Asmodeous doesn't go ok you came out of that persons ass you get his job. Even his daughter had to earn her layer," Simul said. "What pray tell you think Mammon does? He actually has the legal authority to mug visitors and his own citizens in the streets of Minaros all because Mammon, the Marquis of Avarice is its Lord. How does that make devils better than any oppressive human monarch you know?" Simul takes out a list and looks over it. "Mammon's on my list of beings to be destroyed along with Levistus, Baalzebul, and most of the gods, I have to check again but I think The Lady of Pain and Obad-Hai are not on the list. Sure I view him as slightly better but well I just don't like the guy. Although I might keep him arround a little longer. I don't care what they say Mammon is extremely easy to rob," Simul said. "Oh please last time you were in Mammons layer you bluffed some of his minions into thinking the treasure they were gaurding belonged to you," the imp said. "Does it get any easier?" Simul said. Barthold starts giggling and chortling, incapable of restraining his laughter. "Are you talking about the same Nine Hells I am, or some other Inferno!? Hell is full of nepotism, favoritism and ass-kissing. In fact, along with cruelty, brutality, back stabbing and absolute service to the Infernal State those are the prime means of advancement in the Nine Hells." "At least advancement is possible. Bel was not born into his position, Dispatcher was not born into his position, even Asmodeous was not born into his position. The closest there is to someone having there position as a birth right is Fierna and her father controls her layer," Simul said, "Besides I have a tendency to die a lot and its the only place other than the Abyss that I can get a god free ressurection. Although once things are finished on the positive energy plane they might not be needed anylonger although I still have to make sure that Levistus is destroyed." "Did you listen to what Sir Boydson said, or do you have this woman's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) signature ability? Yup, apperently even you have the power to jump to any illogical conclusion you want." "I fully support her execution of that old man as long as the cat was not hurt. As for having her signiture ability "I am always right because the gods said so," is a lot different then, " I am organizing a group of orphans to overthrow kingdoms, tampering with the positive energy plane, and preparing to slaughter the gods." You see one of us believe they serves the gods like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet). The other plans on serving the gods like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man) or this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_green). Or maybe I will just use them as fertilizer. I'll have to check with the other Abandoned first,"Simul said, "As for my alliance with Baator I am only the embasador. Of the Eighty Seven members of the Abandoned Eighty Seven voted for the alliance once we learned that Glasya and us has a common enemy. If even one of the Adandoned did not want the alliance it would have never happened and no they weren't voting yes because I did, I waited till last to make sure. Additionally we have another vote each year that must be passed with 100%. If at anytime even one person says they do not want it the alliance will be canceled." "Wait I thought the Abandoned had Ninety memebers," Tim said. "Two of the memebers had there memory wiped of there time in the Abandoned and were given to a local blacksmith for swearing fealty to another memeber of the Abandoned. The other was killed for treason," Simul said. "You had their minds wiped for that," Tim said. "Abandoned serve no one not even another Abandoned. Those willing to serve are not worthy of being part of the Abandoned and those that would claim rulership over another Abandoned is a threat that will be eliminated even if I have to remove them myself," Simul said, " Even if it is myself." "Okay Simul and "Tim", not only are you evil, you're certifiably insane." "That's kind of obvious Simul is telling everyone his plans. I think he once told a cleric of Bahamut his plan for platinum dragon stew, he did something similar when he met a cleric of Tiamat. Although to be fair Simul should technically be spending each day trying to commit suicide since he is part angel, part demon, and part devil," Tim said," As for me being evil its practically genetic I was born with the memories of all my ancestors and as for the insane part. The aboleth were arround before your kingdoms, before your gods, and before your planes. What was back then? Oh I know something you beings know as the Far Realm." "There is no threat in telling my plan. I have no reason to hide it and no worries about if they know. Almost no one in there right minds will believe that over eighty orphans organized themselves so perfectly that they could be considered a mortal version of Mechus and even less people will believe that those eighty orphans could have taken over a kingdom, and even less will believe the other stuff. Its the perfect tactic. Need to weaken the kings guards or even a random froup of soldiers start spreading rummors about an orphan rebellion. Most of them will laugh at it while the ones are they consider gullible will believe it. The perfect way to cause some kind of a conflict that has the potenital to lessen morale and even cause fighting between the guards or the soldiers." "Ok that's the last straw," the imp said "You're absolutely right," Simul said. A bottle with an unholy seeming liquid in it appears in Simuls hand. Simul opened the bottle and dumbed the liquid on the imp. The liquid was water from the River Styx. "Where am I and who am I?" the imp asked. "I never saw you before in my life," Simul said. "Doesn't that spell require a material component?" Tim asked. "Normally but the Abandoned constructed a few custom metamagic feats. The component was used just not here," Simul said. "Oh so your a wizard," the imp said. "And you have a vow of silence your breaking," Tim said. "Oh ok I will shut up," the imp said.
Devil Gnasher 06-23-07, 01:42 AM	"Well Simul, I see we aren't quite talking about the same Nine Hells. That said you might even like our Beelzebub. He has ideological similarities with you and your group and a more physically more impressive form than your Sluggy. I still don't like either of them one bit."
Maekrix_Waere 06-23-07, 03:04 AM	(Well, I might as well make a conscientious attempt to get in character...better say what I look like) *This figure leans against the wall in the most shadowed corner of the room, he appears to wear a black cloak, with a hood he has pulled up, leaving only the vaguest outlines of his face visible. He is wearing what appears to be a Chainmail shirt, and, judging by the luster, it is made of Mithral. Over that (likely to conceal the shine) he is wearing a dark shirt, which is covered in intricate markings. Dark pants and heavy leather boots complete the wardrobe. A bow larger than he is leans next to him, as well as a quiver with monstrous arrows, likely perfectly sized for the bow, as well as an elegant sword, inset with beautiful markings. He is shorter than the average Human, and leaner, likely marking him as an Elf. (P.S.-You cast Detect Evil on him, he's clean)* Well, stranger, I find most of the uses for poison to be dishonourable, enough to justify a blanket refusal to use that tool. A blanket refusal, I can accept, even support. However, I will not accept a blanket ruling of "Evil," which far too many of your order are too quick to apply. Positoxins and ravages are sacred instruments that are the bane of undead and evil, more advanced but much the same as holy water (OOC: counting the RAW description as metagaming). I have already given you an instance in which Poisitoxins can be used in an unholy way, an Evil Blackguard (are there truly any others?) using a poisitoxin against a Good-Aligned Lich. I will accept your ruling upon Ravages simply because I doubt I will be able to sway your opinion upon them...However, something about them still seems...*Seems to search for a word*...off about them. (OOC: IMHO, the BoED is a :angelhide, while most people think it is a :angel:.) Of course, this matter depends heavily on our views of honour. To me, a dishonourable act would be something that would make me think less of that person. Using tactical advantages in combat would not do that. Honour is not pointless rules. Well, I am not bound by a code of honour, and use, create, and trade in (though never with Evil creatures) Poisons, so I, for one, do not see what is so dishonourable about them. I am merely stating that if you do believe one of them is dishonourable, I do not understand how you can be of the opinion that the other two are not. Let me say that no fight I know have has been fair. My sword and armour are hallowed steel, my skill in battle is seldom matched on the field, miracles of protection and healing stem from my celestial pact. It is a rare foe who can match me in these. I would be willing to bet I know someone who can...by whom I am still marked...* Appears to stare off into the distance, lost in thought. A full minute later he returns to speaking*...but I shant name him unless coaxed...*Another long pause, though this one is not quite as long*...However, I digress...I am sure your skill is quite formidible, even for a Paladin...However, hopefully your wisdom of when to use that skill is more honed that the Paladin I travel with.
maharai23 06-23-07, 07:43 AM	Well, stranger, I find most of the uses for poison to be dishonourable, enough to justify a blanket refusal to use that tool. Positoxins and ravages are sacred instruments that are the bane of undead and evil, more advanced but much the same as holy water (OOC: counting the RAW description as metagaming). Of course, this matter depends heavily on our views of honour. To me, a dishonourable act would be something that would make me think less of that person. Using tactical advantages in combat would not do that. Honour is not pointless rules. Let me say that no fight I know have has been fair. My sword and armour are hallowed steel, my skill in battle is seldom matched on the field, miracles of protection and healing stem from my celestial pact. It is a rare foe who can match me in these. By the greatest texts of goodness in the realms, the needless suffering of others is always evil... Kill if you must - and by your skill, I'd wager you've killed more than you've needed to; perhaps even redeemable souls - but causing suffering when doing so is not just dishonourable, it is wrong, by any standard of good. This is why poisons which degrade the mind and body are evil. What then of positoxins, which do just that? They degrade the body and mind. Holy Water, I can accept, as it directly attacks the body, harming it, and directly contributing in its destruction... In fact, holy water can even kill the evil, many times. But positoxins? No... You cause suffering, avoidable suffering, and even if you need to kill a creature, is there ever a truly non-evil reason to do that? No, positoxins are a tool of evil, in disguise, my misguided friend, and, were your wisdom sufficient to see past the rhetoric of that false substance for what it is, for nothing more than a poison against evil, by evil, and for evil. Unless the hallmark of good is hypocrisy, it must be so. For even demons and devils can work against one another... They are both creatures of evil, however, even when doing so. That is, unless you endorse the suffering of others, hmm? The hallmark of nobility and honor is extending the courtesy of fair play to the opponent, however, even when it is denied you. Such is both the strength and the weakness of honor. Oh, I may not be honorable, just as I may not be the best of people. But I've known a great many people, and learned a great many things on the nature of the world, and of mankind. And from this I know that if I have seen a man to be fair to his enemies, I can trust him to be fair. If I have seen him heal the dying stranger before rushing to his unconscious but stable friend, I can trust him to be fair in all things. As for your skill with a blade, your strength of arms, save the pointless boasts. I am far more concerned with your strength of character, and your ability to stay your blade... Though with so much bloodshed paid to learn your immense skill, I dare say that the important abilities, of mercy and redemption, are somewhat lacking in one of your stature. After all, my stealth, my knowledge, my little parlor tricks, these need not come at the greatest cost of all. The skills of a thousand warriors comes at the cost of many thousand lives. -Maharai Grimm -Human Chameleon
Stormbrand 06-23-07, 08:47 AM	A blanket refusal, I can accept, even support. However, I will not accept a blanket ruling of "Evil," which far too many of your order are too quick to apply. My order? Do you mean other paladins? My advice is to take that up with them. I have already given you an instance in which Poisitoxins can be used in an unholy way, an Evil Blackguard (are there truly any others?) using a poisitoxin against a Good-Aligned Lich. Those are the exception. Holy water would also harm a Good-aligned lich, although how such a lich would be possible I do not know. My knowledge is that the ceremony for lichdom requires many atrocities. I will accept your ruling upon Ravages simply because I doubt I will be able to sway your opinion upon them...However, something about them still seems...*Seems to search for a word*...off about them. (OOC: IMHO, the BoED is a :angelhide, while most people think it is a :angel:.) Perhaps. They are hardly standard. (OOC: yes, I agree that BoED should never be used for moral points). Well, I am not bound by a code of honour, and use, create, and trade in (though never with Evil creatures) Poisons, so I, for one, do not see what is so dishonourable about them. I am merely stating that if you do believe one of them is dishonourable, I do not understand how you can be of the opinion that the other two are not. Poisoned arrows I could tolerate, reluctantly. Most poisonings are acts of deceit and betrayal however. To use positoxins in such a way would require the pretense of alliance with the undead. My experience with Ravages is mostly the Golden Ice on my gear, to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands. (OOC: I am against poisons because PHB says I have to be, I think sleeping poison would be a fine tool for paladins seeking to spare lives). I would be willing to bet I know someone who can...by whom I am still marked...* Appears to stare off into the distance, lost in thought. A full minute later he returns to speaking*...but I shant name him unless coaxed...*Another long pause, though this one is not quite as long*...However, I digress...I am sure your skill is quite formidible, even for a Paladin...However, hopefully your wisdom of when to use that skill is more honed that the Paladin I travel with. Well, I try. I believe I am successful. My point is that a fair fight is an illusion. My intent is not to boast. - Aorle Kar, Knight of the Angelsworn.
Stormbrand 06-23-07, 09:03 AM	Edited blank
maharai23 06-23-07, 09:43 AM	Expect no answer to your insults, they do not interest me. As for positoxins, they weaken the dark power on which the undead thrive. I see no cruelty in that. (OOC: I can see this devolving into baiting, so I plan to stop answering you from now on). I mean no insult, other than such posturing should be beneath anyone who claims nobility. Consider it not an attack, and more the advice to tread carefully, as such a path leads often to hubris. I have seen these positoxins, however, used upon a criminal. The screams of torment could be heard, by people in neighboring buildings. To say these things do not torment is purely false. I've seen undead, creatures immune to pain in almost every sense, react as a human who touches acid from the merest touch of these. Even demons - though thankfully, only minor ones, as I've never had the misfortune of crossing paths with a Balor - react to these substances as if they were struck. These positoxins, sir, do not disrupt the negative energies of the undead... They cause suffering in all of evil disposition, especially those whose power is based on another plane of existence. How can good justify that? (OOC: This is not baiting. No actual offense is meant to you in any of this. I can assume that you are not your character, just as you can safely assume that I can't actually cast a fireball. I've had my character state previously that he doesn't value boasts of physical accomplishment. The previous post was an extension of that. It would have been said to any boast of violent ability, if made in a post I felt worthy of comment. I respond to few people here, because I prefer to talk with people that, in my opinion, know how to express themselves well, with a differing view. If you, IRL, have taken offense to any of that, it's not my intent, and you can consider this an apology for offense caused.)
Callista 06-23-07, 10:26 AM	Kady has been listening with interest to the discussion of poison use. "I don't like the whole idea of poison. It's sneaky and dishonorable; it's a way to get around a clean fight. But you can't ban it altogether. I know that's an unpopular view for a paladin, but then... I'm a bit of an unconventional paladin anyhow. "First of all, there's the problem of causing unnecessary pain; and that's evil, no question. There are a lot of poisons that cause pain, or insanity, or any number of unpleasant effects. Not only is it painful, but it's unnecessary. You could disable your opponent in any number of ways that didn't cause such pain; and those are infinitely preferable. "But not all poisons are like that. There are a few that simply weaken your opponent, or cause unconsciousness. Those are the ones that I think could be useful--in fact, preferable--in a specific way: That of capturing someone alive. "Think about it: We stand for law and order. If we're sent to capture a criminal, that means we capture him, not kill him. I've done that probably more than most of you, since my skills are quite useful for the purpose. "When your skill closely matches that of the man you're trying to take in; and when you can't get him to surrender; you have to find other options. I don't like to kill a man if I can put him on trial instead; but of course that's difficult if he won't cooperate. The answer can be to use poison--gas or darts or a poisoned weapon--to cause unconsciousness, or to weaken him so you can take him in. "I haven't actually used poison myself. Reputation is important to a paladin; the people look up to you, and if they see you being underhanded, their trust in you can be shattered. That's important. When they look at a paladin, they see Good itself--someone trustworthy; someone who won't ever let them down. If you can help it, don't do anything that even looks bad--not because it's bad in itself, but because when you're an embodiment of Good to the people, your reputation is important. It's a minor point, but it has to be considered. "The primary reason I haven't used poison is that I've found ways around it. I know a lot about magic--I can't cast spells myself, but I'm good enough to read a scroll or activate a wand that usually only a wizard could use. There are plenty of spells available that can disable an opponent without killing him. And, of course, there are weapons specially enchanted not to kill. If you have the proper training, there are vulnerable spots you can aim for that cause a man to fall unconscious, rather than die. "But not everyone has those options. Not everyone has the resources and the training to use magic or strike an opponent in a way that doesn't kill. And when you are hunting a criminal--someone who already has very little honor--it's different, in strategy and connotation, from fighting a pitched battle in a declared war. "Disabling poisons which act with a minimum of pain are not honorable; but neither are they very dishonorable--when used on a criminal resisting capture. "If you found yourself in such a situation, and had no other options, I wouldn't say you had acted dishonorably at all. I think it's less dishonorable to deny a man a fair trial you could give him if you could take him in--especially if what he's accused of doesn't carry a penalty of death. "But if you come into a situation in which poison use is necessary, beware that you keep your honor. Understand that such strategies aren't to be used unless it's much worse not to use them. Train yourself in ways to disable an opponent that don't require poison. Treat your enemy with respect; be trustworthy; fight with honor. "Poison is almost always dishonorable; and it's best to avoid even the appearance of dishonor. But there are more important things than honor."
Stormbrand 06-23-07, 11:19 AM	I mean no insult, other than such posturing should be beneath anyone who claims nobility. Consider it not an attack, and more the advice to tread carefully, as such a path leads often to hubris. I have seen these positoxins, however, used upon a criminal. The screams of torment could be heard, by people in neighboring buildings. To say these things do not torment is purely false. I've seen undead, creatures immune to pain in almost every sense, react as a human who touches acid from the merest touch of these. Even demons - though thankfully, only minor ones, as I've never had the misfortune of crossing paths with a Balor - react to these substances as if they were struck. These positoxins, sir, do not disrupt the negative energies of the undead... They cause suffering in all of evil disposition, especially those whose power is based on another plane of existence. How can good justify that? (OOC: This is not baiting. No actual offense is meant to you in any of this. I can assume that you are not your character, just as you can safely assume that I can't actually cast a fireball. I've had my character state previously that he doesn't value boasts of physical accomplishment. The previous post was an extension of that. It would have been said to any boast of violent ability, if made in a post I felt worthy of comment. I respond to few people here, because I prefer to talk with people that, in my opinion, know how to express themselves well, with a differing view. If you, IRL, have taken offense to any of that, it's not my intent, and you can consider this an apology for offense caused.) (OOC - thank you, I simply saw the last post going downhill, and have been flamed on previous paladin threads - I guessed it best to hit the stop button early. Will edit blank that bit). I am in full agreement that good done without violence is best. Many know poverty and despair, and those blights upon the world need dealing. How I try to deal with such blights is to give healing freely to those who suffer, and to organise the people so that they can be better provided for, with desperate and starving folk from a shantytown having now formed a thriving community near an oasis. To me that is better than victory in battle. When speaking of my skill in battle, that was not intended as a boast, but an example of how combat is seldom evenly matched. The battles which I am most qualified to speak of are my own, that is all to it. While I seek to do good in any way I can, I am a warrior, and that is the way I am best suited to aid others. I think you speak more of ravages than positoxins here, although my experience with either is less than extensive. How it can be justified? Supported more by Law than by Good, but as punishment. For one to suffer from a Ravage, they must be guilty of grave wrongdoings, unatoned for and the wickedness still part of them. Punishment of crimes is no evil. Perhaps an imperfect method, but that is another issue. And I shall bear your advice in mind, hubris is something to ever be wary of.
maharai23 06-23-07, 12:11 PM	(OOC - thank you, I simply saw the last post going downhill, and have been flamed on previous paladin threads - I guessed it best to hit the stop button early. Will edit blank that bit). I am in full agreement that good done without violence is best. Many know poverty and despair, and those blights upon the world need dealing. How I try to deal with such blights is to give healing freely to those who suffer, and to organise the people so that they can be better provided for, with desperate and starving folk from a shantytown having now formed a thriving community near an oasis. To me that is better than victory in battle. When speaking of my skill in battle, that was not intended as a boast, but an example of how combat is seldom evenly matched. The battles which I am most qualified to speak of are my own, that is all to it. While I seek to do good in any way I can, I am a warrior, and that is the way I am best suited to aid others. I think you speak more of ravages than positoxins here, although my experience with either is less than extensive. How it can be justified? Supported more by Law than by Good, but as punishment. For one to suffer from a Ravage, they must be guilty of grave wrongdoings, unatoned for and the wickedness still part of them. Punishment of crimes is no evil. Perhaps an imperfect method, but that is another issue. And I shall bear your advice in mind, hubris is something to ever be wary of. Even so, I view a punishment that is not tailored to teach an ill punishment indeed. Being right, and indeed, even being righteous, is small consolation if that punishment drives a soul even farther from your cause. And I have never seen pain and suffering as an effective tool to bring anything but anger or fear. I am sure your tales of personal battle would be more than likely victory... After all, a man who wins a hundred battles is a hero. The man who wins a hundred battles and then loses one is a dead hero. Any while it is certainly not wrong to use superior skill and training in a battle, I hardly see it fitting to rely on contrived deception or devices to tip the scale... Perhaps the only positoxin I can see as not a breach of etiquette or honor would be the one known as bloodwine, as it enforces a punishment very fitting to the crime, punishing a vampire for the very action which propogates his ethos. Much like a dog, who soils your house, punishment after the fact for crimes long forgotten will teach the evildoer nothing but the pain. If such suffering MUST be used to teach, and only to teach, then it should be used in immediate response to the action, so that the evildoer knows full well the price of evil. Further, he must know what is doing it, and why, and how... That ethical "corruption" is turned to physical poison. Even so, I look with fanaticism for any cause with more than a little trepidation and suspicion. Rarely have I found a believe more worthy of merit than the way of this world. Perhaps I'm incapable of looking to times long distant in the future... Perhaps I love this world too much to bear the thought of leaving it. If the latter is the case, I hope that my spirit, at least, is capable of a little levity when I pass. Far too many souls bound to this world are much too bound to causes not in harmony with this plane to appreciate a good sunset, a decent joke, or some thoughtful banter at whatever crossroads that life, or afterlife, puts us at. And I would so rather have a place such as this to a stuffy place of never changing good or evil... For there, I'd be another ornament... Here, well, even if I am an ornament, at least I get to see the things pleasant to me.
Braekor Dragonfang 06-23-07, 01:53 PM	Leane: What can I say except that I hope your soul isn't damned because of your association with that assassin? I'm glad you could do good, but... *sigh* He's your problem, not mine. If he was my problem to judge, he would be buried in a shallow grave. I'll have to trust that you will deal with him if... no, when it is needed. Well spoken. By your account, the death of the politician was just, and no evil was done in seeking his downfall. So that leads me to ask, how else has he earned the stain of evil? We both see a taint in his aura that exists because innocents suffer for his actions. Evil cannot be done for the cause of good, no more than lighting a fire will create ice. With all due respect, my lady, perhaps your feelings cloud your judgement? The man harms innocents, else he would not be evil. No paladin can allow that. Now the god of justice condones the partnership of his champion with a criminal? *Turns to address Kerrix himself,* Recite some of your crimes to us, please. There is no such thing as an innocent evil. - Aorle Kar, Celestial Knight. (OOC: my guess is a very strange setting & DM) *Leane ponders your words for a moment, her finger tugging on her lip, and then responds "Evil cannot be done for good? I don't quite believe that. If an innocent contracts an incurable, contagious disease with the possibility of wiping out a town or an entire region, killing him to prevent this is clearly evil, but must be done for the good of the others. Letting anyone die or suffer for the 'greater good' is not only evil, but unjust, despite the good it brings. As for my feelings clouding my judgement, I keep a steady watch to prevent that. As an example, while Kerrix was attempting to court me, he snuck into a flower emporium and stole one thousand red roses and a wagon, placed the wagon in front of the door to my home, so that when I awoke they were there waiting for me. Though I had been swept off my feet by the gesture, I still had to do my duty as a paladin and take him to jail for the crime. Luckily, he agreed to go, and paid to replace the roses, earning himself a reduced sentence in the process." *Kerrix steps forward, putting one arm around Leane as the two take a seat together "Furthermore, I understood Leane's calling, so I agreed to reign in my lawless behavior and as difficult as it is, my evil tendencies. I cannot claim to be a good man, because, admittedly, the evil that poisoned me is quite strong, but I've found that her love has mitigated some of my worst qualities. In regards to my crimes, they include: murder, murder-for-hire, theft, impersonating a civil authority, impersonating a priest of Sune, impersonating a merchant prince, obstruction of justice, prison breaking, burglary, and arson, though that was one time only" "Something I missed from earlier. There is an inherit paradox in that selfish and selfless thing. Why would you allow him to die for the sake of others is it because you believe they deserve life more or is it because multiple deaths instead of just one would be a greater burdon on your conciousness then one death that you could just fix soon enough? If so doesn't that mean your acting on both a selfless and a selfish desire at the same time. Or perhaps you believe that his reaction would by the same as when he told you to go after the wizard. If so that would mean that you believe he is selfless or that he is selfless when it comes to the lives of the innocent," Simul said. "Perhaps I misspoke. As a paladin, it is my duty to work for the greatest good, and I believe all lives are of equal value, though I admit I am a bit prejudiced, so saving two lives would take precedence over saving one, even if that one life is the man I love. Conversely, Kerrix has no compunction to do this, and he would act on his love and his selfish desire to retain that love"
Maekrix_Waere 06-23-07, 02:48 PM	My order? Do you mean other paladins? My advice is to take that up with them. I always try, though am not always successful. Those are the exception. Holy water would also harm a Good-aligned lich, although how such a lich would be possible I do not know. My knowledge is that the ceremony for lichdom requires many atrocities. Oh, I have personally met several Good-Aligned Undead. Let's see...2 Ghasts, 1 Ghoul, 2 Wight, 5 Mummys (one of whom was a paladin), 2 Vampires, and 3 Liches...I have personally been considering Lichdom myself. I do not (yet) know the process through which a Humanoid creature becomes a Lich, but, if it's similar to the way Dragons become Liches, then it involves killing yourself, having your soul take residence within the phyactery, and then using your soul to reanimate your old body...or so I have been told. Poisoned arrows I could tolerate, reluctantly. Most poisonings are acts of deceit and betrayal however. To use positoxins in such a way would require the pretense of alliance with the undead. I would not say MOST are acts of betrayal and deceit. I would be willing to wager that as many poisonings happen on the field of battle than from assassins in the night.
Hydryh 06-23-07, 03:05 PM	"I am begining to find you less qualified than if you simply gained your position from birth. You doing the same thing most nobles do gaining their rewards while ignoring the responsiblities that they should have. If I ever meet you on your world you will suffer a fate worse than you will ever be capable of imagining," Simul said. Please don't threaten me, son. It's not appropriate to this place. As for your opinions of my qualifications, I'm not even sure why you feel that way. I'm less qualified by being the second son? Many nobles in Rotellus have whispered as much, but I did not expect you of all people to agree with Lord Heinlein of Southtown and his cronies. I gained my position when my brother was disowned, and received a "crash course" (as the gnomes would say) in governing from my father just before his death at the hands of a Pit Fiend. As for gaining rewards and ignoring responsibility, I can only assume you speak out of ignorance. While I am more likely to be away from my county than not, it is because I am rooting out dire evils before they can threaten my home and my people. My wife Jessica typically runs the county's day-to-day affairs, updating me and consulting me on major decisions whenever I return. My duties as a paladin put a severe strain on my marriage, but I do what I do because that is what I am. The only rewards I take from my county are the people's smiles as I ride home, a hot bath and warm bed, and supplies and troops to aid me when I head out on the road again. My troops, incidentally, are all volunteers. I am trying to be courteous, but please stop making blind assessments about other people's lives. You will make more friends that way. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E.
vegetalss4 06-23-07, 03:26 PM	"I haven't actually used poison myself. Reputation is important to a paladin; the people look up to you, and if they see you being underhanded, their trust in you can be shattered. That's important. When they look at a paladin, they see Good itself--someone trustworthy; someone who won't ever let them down. " i would wish this was true but a sad fact of life is that what people truly see when looking at a paladin is an arogant fool who think he is oh so much better than evybody(how do you spell that) elsewith, a stick up his a**. Sad but true
Hydryh 06-23-07, 03:46 PM	"I have a question for you Sir Boydson. Would you agree with this fellow on the issue of Good and Evil (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3600004&postcount=54)? I would, but what are your thoughts on the matter?" I disagree, for he would have intention lend no meaning to actions. As I read it, this man sees an assassin killing a king for money as no different than a paladin killing the same king because he is a Balor in disguise.
Thegans 06-23-07, 04:57 PM	"Well Simul, I see we aren't quite talking about the same Nine Hells. That said you might even like our Beelzebub. He has ideological similarities with you and your group and a more physically more impressive form than your Sluggy. I still don't like either of them one bit." "Do you mean this Baator (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=88)?"Simul asked. "And out of curiosity have you seen or do you knowthis hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy#Inferno),or this hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Norway), this hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Michigan), or the hell with food and a TV show (http://www.fox.com/hellskitchen/),since I think you know of 'dirt' you probably know what a TV is, or this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government)?" Simul asked. Those are the exception. Holy water would also harm a Good-aligned lich, although how such a lich would be possible I do not know. My knowledge is that the ceremony for lichdom requires many atrocities. - Aorle Kar, Knight of the Angelsworn. "Actually I spent some time in an elf village and leaned of a type of lich called a baelnorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baelnorn) this type of lich requires a non evil alignment. There are also some rare references to good liches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29#Alignmen t). This tome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libris_Mortis) has a small reference about them. I have also heard of fiends that somehow achieve lichdom despite the problem of having no soul to place in a phylacterous," Simul said. [QUOTE=Braekor Dragonfang;12831595]*Leane ponders your words for a moment, her finger tugging on her lip, and then responds "Evil cannot be done for good? I don't quite believe that. If an innocent contracts an incurable, contagious disease with the possibility of wiping out a town or an entire region, killing him to prevent this is clearly evil, but must be done for the good of the others. Letting anyone die or suffer for the 'greater good' is not only evil, but unjust, despite the good it brings. As for my feelings clouding my judgement, I keep a steady watch to prevent that. As an example, while Kerrix was attempting to court me, he snuck into a flower emporium and stole one thousand red roses and a wagon, placed the wagon in frnt of the door to my home, so that when I awoke they were there waiting for me. Though I had been swept off my feet by the gesture, I still had to do my duty as a paladin and take him to jail for the crime. Luckily, he agreed to go, and paid to replace the roses, earning himself a reduced sentence in the process." *Kerrix steps forward, putting one arm around Leane as the two take a seat together "Furthermore, I understood Leane's calling, so I agreed to reign in my lawless behavior and as difficult as it is, my evil tendencies. I cannot claim to be a good man, because, admittedly, the evil that poisoned me is quite strong, but I've found that her love has mitigated some of my worst qualities. In regards to my crimes, they include: murder, murder-for-hire, theft, impersonating a civil authority, impersonating a priest of Sune, impersonating a merchant prince, obstruction of justice, prison breaking, burglary, and arson, though that was one time only" "That's all I am lawful evil and I commited more crimes then that by the time I was ten years old back before I learned that I was not a normal human," Simul said. "Now then there may be an interesting solution to your apparent deliema I am not sure of your country but on a world called dirt many countries have legal agencies that employ or are said to empoly people to spy on criminal organisations by pretending to be part of the organisation. Perhaps you two could see if that is a possiblity. That way he can embrace his nature while at the same time almost completely negating it," Simul said. "Perhaps I misspoke. As a paladin, it is my duty to work for the greatest good, and I believe all lives are of equal value, though I admit I am a bit prejudiced, so saving two lives would take precedence over saving one, even if that one life is the man I love. Conversely, Kerrix has no compunction to do this, and he would act on his love and his selfish desire to retain that love" "Really in this world the death of one person is no big deal. You were technically saying. 'Sure if Kerrix has to get beat up and injured to save others thats fine, he can get better.' Anyway your welcome to take those scrolls or leave them. They may be holy but they were stolen from the treasury of one of Mammon's cults. As for mispeaking perhaps not I just like psedophilisophical babble, it kept me from getting killed when I accidently summoned an aspect of Demogorgan and when I was caught by a priest of Set." Simul said. "I thought you said they both started to laugh hysterically," Tim said. "They did Demogorgan laughed until the spell ended and the priest succated from laughing too much," Simul said. "As for the coment about preserving lifes I can see the point and its one of the reasons I don't like using poison. It has a tendency to get into the water supply and at that time you might wind up harming those that are not your enemies. Although as I learned from an ally of mine named Kulim a neurtral evil half devil druid sometimes its best for the many to die. Take the country Naltharia as an example Kulim was planning on having meteors reign dowm apon it because the country did not have enough resources to support everyone with out damaging the wilderness outside of its borders. Although for some reason he didn't destroy it. His basical pollicy is that every so often the largest civilizations should face a great disaster to lower the population so they put less of a strain on there natural resources," Simul said, " Althought Kulim is a little quick to kill. He basically translated the druidic oath as 'Step on a flower and your blood will water it.' Still he has a point sometimes the world is too small for everyone and a conflict that causes widespread death usually becomes inevitable once that happens." "Isn't Natharia the country that the Abandoned are based in?" Tim asked. Simul takes out a map and begins to laugh slightly. He put the map away when he finished. "I really should remember to keep track of the names of the countries. Although this is kind of ironic. Although it does explain why the imp was complaining when we took over," Simul said. "Does that count as evil being done for good?" Tim asked. Please don't threaten me, son. It's not appropriate to this place. As for your opinions of my qualifications, I'm not even sure why you feel that way. I'm less qualified by being the second son? Many nobles in Rotellus have whispered as much, but I did not expect you of all people to agree with Lord Heinlein of Southtown and his cronies. I gained my position when my brother was disowned, and received a "crash course" (as the gnomes would say) in governing from my father just before his death at the hands of a Pit Fiend. As for gaining rewards and ignoring responsibility, I can only assume you speak out of ignorance. While I am more likely to be away from my county than not, it is because I am rooting out dire evils before they can threaten my home and my people. My wife Jessica typically runs the county's day-to-day affairs, updating me and consulting me on major decisions whenever I return. My duties as a paladin put a severe strain on my marriage, but I do what I do because that is what I am. The only rewards I take from my county are the people's smiles as I ride home, a hot bath and warm bed, and supplies and troops to aid me when I head out on the road again. My troops, incidentally, are all volunteers. I am trying to be courteous, but please stop making blind assessments about other people's lives. You will make more friends that way. Count Ian Boydson The Long Road 893 A.E. "Did you not hear the part where this kid bacially shouted 'I hate monarchys' or were you just ignoring that part?" Tim asked, "He doesn't care that your the second son. He would hate you just as much if you were the first or even a clone of your father." "I have enough allies and friendship is overrated," Simul said. "What about that half celestial?" Tim asked. "Don't mention that annoying elf," Simul said.
Devil Gnasher 06-24-07, 12:07 AM	"Do you mean this Baator (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=88)?"Simul asked. "Which of these two Hells am I talking about? The one where "daddy's little girl" is the ruler of the Sixth Hell or where Malabolge is dominated by the Queen of Desolation, Lilith? This is the same Lilith who sponsored the foul Necromancer Countess Angilique de Lorme. The woman who used her living and undead agents and saboteurs to conquer and enslave my people's clan and murder my mother. This Angilique then forced my people to give over our cubs for experimentation. All this was done the service of Lilith and with her diabolical aid. So yes, I mean those Nine Hells." "And out of curiosity have you seen or do you knowthis hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy#Inferno),or this hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Norway), this hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Michigan), or the hell with food and a TV show (http://www.fox.com/hellskitchen/) "I know of all but the last Hell." , since I think you know of 'dirt' you probably know what a TV is, or this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government)?" Simul asked. "Yes, I do. And it's as nightmarishly bureaucratic as any Hell can be." "Actually I spent some time in an elf village and leaned of a type of lich called a baelnorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baelnorn) this type of lich requires a non evil alignment. There are also some rare references to good liches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29#Alignmen t).[/QUOTE] "Ah, I know of Baelnorn and Archliches. What pray tell do you think Elder Gutknecht is?"
Thegans 06-24-07, 12:59 AM	[QUOTE=Devil Gnasher;12836323]"Which of these two Hells am I talking about? The one where "daddy's little girl" is the ruler of the Sixth Hell or where Malabolge is dominated by the Queen of Desolation, Lilith? This is the same Lilith who sponsored the foul Necromancer Countess Angilique de Lorme. The woman who used her living and undead agents and saboteurs to conquer and enslave my people's clan and murder my mother. This Angilique then forced my people to give over our cubs for experimentation. All this was done the service of Lilith and with her diabolical aid. So yes, I mean those Nine Hells." "In general I hate Lilith probably beacause of her association with the annoying slug. I can't imagine that one is much better," Simul said," My research on those Nine Hells are not complete but I must say that they will probably be labeled enemies of the Abandoned." "Those Nine Hells reminds me to much about the Holy Slaughter. That was the second worst event in my worlds history ever," Tim said, " "Out of curiosity are you a werebear or was your clan a group of bears under the effect of an awakened spell that caused your species to evolve into its current form?" Simul asked "Yes, I do. And it's as nightmarishly bureaucratic as any Hell can be." "On one of my trips to dirt I took a devil capable of shapeshifting with me although I forgot what kind. As soon as we got back the devil yelled out 'I know where we go when we die'. The devil had nightmares about that place for about a month. The other Abandoned are considering creating a blackmarket to sell bureucratic procedures from that hell to Baator," Simul said. "Ah, I know of Baelnorn and Archliches. What pray tell do you think Elder Gutknecht is?" "I either don't know about that person or I forgot and Tim despite claiming that he is an Aboleth trapped in a human form keeps a lot of things secret until the worse or most annoying time possible," Simul said. "I only have an intelligence of 15 its not my fault that the rules of reality say we are dumber than we shoud be," Tim said. "How did you know that?" Simul asked, "Did that thing break?" "No but a game on dirt has creatures a lot like my species with 15 intelligence so I am assuming so,"Tim said. "Talking about dirt broke it again," Simul said. "Yep," Simul said. Simul uses mend to attempt to fix the fourth wall. "Ok now that thats done who is this Elder Gutknecht?" Simul asked. "OK now then since I remembered the Holy Slaughter what would you do if you discovered a race of good beings that attempted to slaughter everything in there path?" Tim asked.
vader_rocks 06-24-07, 01:10 AM	O wise Count Ian Boydson, Dimitri Audentia asks your assistance. Which is more important: Law or Good?
Devil Gnasher 06-24-07, 02:22 AM	"In general I hate Lilith probably beacause of her association with the annoying slug. I can't imagine that one is much better," Simul said," My research on those Nine Hells are not complete but I must say that they will probably be labeled enemies of the Abandoned." "Those Nine Hells reminds me to much about the Holy Slaughter. That was the second worst event in my worlds history ever," Tim said, I'll have Professor Ellington give further explanation. He's spent more time studying and fighting the Nine Hells than I have. And only as an anatomist. He possess a copy of Drenicus' book on the subject. But to say the least Beelzebub is very different from Sluggy." "Out of curiosity are you a werebear or was your clan a group of bears under the effect of an awakened spell that caused your species to evolve into its current form?" Simul asked "It was the latter ma'am. That's all I can say right now." "On one of my trips to dirt I took a devil capable of shapeshifting with me although I forgot what kind. As soon as we got back the devil yelled out 'I know where we go when we die'. The devil had nightmares about that place for about a month. The other Abandoned are considering creating a blackmarket to sell bureucratic procedures from that hell to Baator," Simul said. "I'm not sure how to respond to this statement. I just don't how." Simul uses mend to attempt to fix the fourth wall. "Ok now that thats done who is this Elder Gutknecht?" Simul asked. "Elder Gutknecht is the archlich ruler of a grand necropolis whose inhabitants call simlpy the Land of the Dead. He has prohibited his fellow undead from using violence against the living, even in self defense."
Hydryh 06-24-07, 10:29 AM	O wise Count Ian Boydson, Dimitri Audentia asks your assistance. Which is more important: Law or Good? Good. Ideally, we may serve both causes, but when the time comes to choose between siding with Evil that adheres to (and no doubt exploits) the Law, or Goodness that wallows in Chaos, a true paladin should always side with Good.
Stormbrand 06-24-07, 11:28 AM	I do not (yet) know the process through which a Humanoid creature becomes a Lich, but, if it's similar to the way Dragons become Liches, then it involves killing yourself, having your soul take residence within the phyactery, and then using your soul to reanimate your old body...or so I have been told. (OOC: I know the process for lichdom is described as 'unspeakably evil' in the MM - from that I conclude that the necessary preparations include a number of very evil acts. Bad enough that not detailing them is an act of kindness to readers or listeners).
Rerecros 06-24-07, 02:12 PM	In stumbles Captain Norman Nox, a middle aged somewhat overweight human fighter with one eye, he detects as evil. Greetings lord Boydson, now I have something of a moral quandary. Now in my kingdom we had a problem with goblins, nasty little blighters. Banditry, murders, rape what have you. So my boys and I started arresting the whole lot of them, killing the ones that try any of the funny business. Now them heathen goblin clans declared war on us for holding their brothers. But our Captain had a mage, a diviner, and he knew where all the gobbers were hiding. So we stormed their camps with the subtlety of a tarrasque, now the captain said no women or children, so we killed every adult, able bodied male gobber we could find. Now these goblin wenches and urchins have the nerve to start asking for a handout. Now our blessed (though somewhat blind) king decides to help them, we built a few camps and gave them the essentials. Now fifteen years latter, those little gobbers are all grown up and thirsting for vengeance blood, committing all sorts of terrorisms. Those gobbers proliferate and grow up a lot quicker than us humans. I'm the captain now, and I'm responsible for everybody's safety. So I ordered, "Kill them all". I'm not going to grant them mercy when I know they are just going to spit in my face. Goblins are irredeemable incarnations of wrath and wanton destruction. So we did it, and killed every goblin man, women and child in our kingdom, and that was the end of it. Now what I did, was it right?
Stormbrand 06-24-07, 04:01 PM	In stumbles Captain Norman Nox, a middle aged somewhat overweight human fighter with one eye, he detects as evil. Greetings lord Boydson, now I have something of a moral quandary. Now in my kingdom we had a problem with goblins, nasty little blighters. Banditry, murders, rape what have you. So my boys and I started arresting the whole lot of them, killing the ones that try any of the funny business. Now them heathen goblin clans declared war on us for holding their brothers. But our Captain had a mage, a diviner, and he knew where all the gobbers were hiding. So we stormed their camps with the subtlety of a tarrasque, now the captain said no women or children, so we killed every adult, able bodied male gobber we could find. Now these goblin wenches and urchins have the nerve to start asking for a handout. Now our blessed (though somewhat blind) king decides to help them, we built a few camps and gave them the essentials. Now fifteen years latter, those little gobbers are all grown up and thirsting for vengeance blood, committing all sorts of terrorisms. Those gobbers proliferate and grow up a lot quicker than us humans. I'm the captain now, and I'm responsible for everybody's safety. So I ordered, "Kill them all". I'm not going to grant them mercy when I know they are just going to spit in my face. Goblins are irredeemable incarnations of wrath and wanton destruction. So we did it, and killed every goblin man, women and child in our kingdom, and that was the end of it. Now what I did, was it right? Would you welcome my opinion, captain? Sadly, your choice was not right, although it did protect the people. Many of the goblins who were slaughtered were not your enemies. A mere 'handout' to the goblins was lazy and short-sighted, as it enabled their cruel and brutal society to continue. The ideal course of action would have been to use this opportunity to influence their society through sustained involvement. A simple militia could install fair laws and policing, and missionaries could teach them better values. The irredeemable incarnations of wrath and wanton destruction are not the goblins, but the dark spirits that they worship. Winning the allegience of the goblin tribes would have created a useful resource. Productive colonies and scouts and skirmishers for the kingdom's armies. The Good course can involve more reasoned thought than simply feeding the mouth that bites you.
Maekrix_Waere 06-24-07, 05:33 PM	(OOC: I know the process for lichdom is described as 'unspeakably evil' in the MM - from that I conclude that the necessary preparations include a number of very evil acts. Bad enough that not detailing them is an act of kindness to readers or listeners). (OOC: If they are "Unspeakably Evil," then how is it possible for the Libris Mortis to introduce Good-Aligned Liches? Anything within the realm of Unspeakable Evil would cause you to immediatly shift alignments. I, personally, think they were a bit overzealous in labeling the Lichdom process as "Unspeakable Evil," and will go with the Libris Mortis, [The more recent of the two.] and assume that the process is not as Evil as the MM 3.5 would lead us to believe.)
Stormbrand 06-24-07, 05:36 PM	(OOC: If they are "Unspeakably Evil," then how is it possible for the Libris Mortis to introduce Good-Aligned Liches? Anything within the realm of Unspeakable Evil would cause you to immediatly shift alignments. I, personally, think they were a bit overzealous in labeling the Lichdom process as "Unspeakable Evil," and will go with the Libris Mortis, [The more recent of the two.] and assume that the process is not as Evil as the MM 3.5 would lead us to believe.) (OOC: *shrug* I call it the rare exception to 'standard' lichdom. Different method.)
DX2052 06-24-07, 09:09 PM	What is "evil" and what is "good", what is Chaos, and what is Law?
Soulless_Enigma 06-25-07, 12:09 PM	A weathered half-orc, dressed for artic conditions in furs and leather steps forward. "Hail, champions of good. I am Keth Wintersbite, frostrager and adventurer. I aim to persue freedom and good in my actions. I have two questions. 1) Do you consider the berserk rage that folk like me can enter giving in to the evils of anger? 2) What are your opinions on lycanthropes, both those born with the curse, and those afflicted by it during life?"
Erpegis 06-26-07, 03:02 AM	Goblins are irredeemable incarnations of wrath and wanton destruction. Oh, sure. *They* don't deserve to live. You can live with them, it requires simple planning. You could let them settle down in the civilised areas. In my world the Thesk region from where my friend Gadmere comes has given place to a lot of orcish mercenaries. They live in relative peace. The problem is, that the orcish and goblin culture is more than hunter-gatherer one. It is a raiding one. The banditry is the primary way of getting resources for them, instead of farming, hunting or mining. It is ingrained in their culture, but I suspect that you could convince them that farming and trade could be more profitable. So we did it, and killed every goblin man, women and child in our kingdom, and that was the end of it. Now what I did, was it right? It is a genocide. And you know it. Among those goblins must have been certainly some innocent. The 'all sorts of terrorisms'... you can't say that every goblin on the surface of planet is responsible for it? Goblins are not some sort of fiends! There are good and evil goblins, as there are good and evil elves or gnomes. The justice is the punishment that is corresponding to the crime. What you did was unfair, horrible, and in fact, I could destroy your mind for that. You need a lot of pain to be purified. To Keith Wintersbite: 1) Do you consider the berserk rage that folk like me can enter giving in to the evils of anger? Anger is seldom evil. There are times when it's justified. Anger is a natural feeling, though I personally feel that one should at least control it. If your berserk rage helps you fight evil - rage on, friend. But if you will, even accidentally, hurt an innocent - consider yourself warned. Though all sorts of barbarians have done numerous things to annoy me (and most of them strongly on purpose), I still have a dose of sympathy for a strong, fighting ally. 2) What are your opinions on lycanthropes, both those born with the curse, and those afflicted by it during life? I fight werewolves, for they are nothing more than monsters born out of fears. I'd try to help those afflicted by this curse. In a way, I dislike the good-aligned lycanthropes. In a way, they propagate the ideals of good if they change someone into a werebear. However, there must be a better way. But this is just me. Arden the Mindreader Paladin of Ilmater/Psion/Mental Knight
Hydryh 06-26-07, 11:59 AM	In stumbles Captain Norman Nox, a middle aged somewhat overweight human fighter with one eye, he detects as evil. Greetings lord Boydson, now I have something of a moral quandary. Now in my kingdom we had a problem with goblins, nasty little blighters. Banditry, murders, rape what have you. So my boys and I started arresting the whole lot of them, killing the ones that try any of the funny business. Now them heathen goblin clans declared war on us for holding their brothers. But our Captain had a mage, a diviner, and he knew where all the gobbers were hiding. So we stormed their camps with the subtlety of a tarrasque, now the captain said no women or children, so we killed every adult, able bodied male gobber we could find. Now these goblin wenches and urchins have the nerve to start asking for a handout. Now our blessed (though somewhat blind) king decides to help them, we built a few camps and gave them the essentials. Now fifteen years latter, those little gobbers are all grown up and thirsting for vengeance blood, committing all sorts of terrorisms. Those gobbers proliferate and grow up a lot quicker than us humans. I'm the captain now, and I'm responsible for everybody's safety. So I ordered, "Kill them all". I'm not going to grant them mercy when I know they are just going to spit in my face. Goblins are irredeemable incarnations of wrath and wanton destruction. So we did it, and killed every goblin man, women and child in our kingdom, and that was the end of it. Now what I did, was it right? *Ian sighs heavily* As much as it deeply pains me to side with a man who bears the taint of evil, yes. You chose the right path. This band of goblins had already been given a display of your martial superiority, and the chance to live in peace with you or leave. By the sound of things, sparing them a second time would only have created a third conflict, and banishing them would simply mean that they had farther to march before they struck. This was a necessary Evil, though the very concept is abhorrent to me. If your motivation was solely to protect your land, I congratulate your reason, and invite you to come to the side of Goodness and light. I hope that you will join us, truly. If the motivation behind this genocide was tainted--say, by a desire for vengeance--then please turn from your path. If you will not, work to avoid me.
Hydryh 06-26-07, 12:03 PM	(OOC: If they are "Unspeakably Evil," then how is it possible for the Libris Mortis to introduce Good-Aligned Liches? Anything within the realm of Unspeakable Evil would cause you to immediatly shift alignments. I, personally, think they were a bit overzealous in labeling the Lichdom process as "Unspeakable Evil," and will go with the Libris Mortis, [The more recent of the two.] and assume that the process is not as Evil as the MM 3.5 would lead us to believe.) ((While I haven't read the LM cover-to-cover, I'd assume from a roleplaying standpoint that while the Lich was motivated by evil while becoming a lich, they don't have to stay evil. Immortality gives you a lot of time to rethink your deeds, past and future.))
Hydryh 06-26-07, 12:16 PM	A weathered half-orc, dressed for artic conditions in furs and leather steps forward. "Hail, champions of good. I am Keth Wintersbite, frostrager and adventurer. I aim to persue freedom and good in my actions. I have two questions. 1) Do you consider the berserk rage that folk like me can enter giving in to the evils of anger? Not if it is done to advance the cause of Good. Anger is not necessarily an evil, for without anger at Evil, few paladins would have much to encourage them to enter battle. Anger can help us, even those who cannot fly into your near-supernatural rage, by pushing us to go that extra mile. Anger is like a fire; it does certain things that we can understand and employ it for, but if we do not control when and how it is used, it will hurt us. Anger is only as good or evil as the use you put it to. If I saw you fly into a rage to strike a red dragon, I would cheer and charge into battle alongside you. If I saw you do the same with your wife as the target, I would step in and disable you. Painfully. 2) What are your opinions on lycanthropes, both those born with the curse, and those afflicted by it during life?" *Hydryh explains to Ian how lycanthropy works in most campaigns.* Ah, I see. In that case, both are victims, so long as they do not embrace the curse. Once they have allowed it to twist their souls, they become monsters, and should be hunted as such. A person who is cursed but not evil should be subdued each full moon, if at all possible. If this is not possible, and the only way to stop their rampage is to slay them, they should be returned to their loved ones and buried according to local custom. Also, please forgive me if I ramble. The road has been long and rough these past few days.
BoringInfoGuy 06-26-07, 04:06 PM	Truly a troubling tale... And yet, in the same breath, truly a tale of the potential of man. Man is shaped by nothing more than his desires and his experiences. A man of pure evil, when given that second chance, may choose noble peace. And if the memories should return? Such is the nature of the chaos within us all, crashing in, and taking all of the order we have in this world, and perhaps ebbing and, frightfully enough, allowing him to confront the man in the mirror. When that happens, his test of wills shall begin, and only his desires will choose the outcome. My best advice is that evil redeemed would be better than evil destroyed, in the eyes of good, correct? Give this man enough good... Enough of a taste of all the joys that trust and fellowship can bring, so that when he must wage that war with himself, the good within him will have a shield to protect him from the stabs of evil. The chaos brought into this man's life changed his views from evil to good... Is there no room in the paladin's code for redemption and mercy? For forgiveness and atonement? Can this man not have, at least, the opportunity to fight that battle, and let the chips fall as they may? Change is the only constant. You would do well to remember that. - Maharai Grimm - Human Chameleon Sorry for the lateness of my reply. In truth, I do not see this as a story of redemption. The butcher is gone, laid dormant, perhaps permanently. In his place is a man of honor. If this was a tale where the butcher had come to realize the errors of his ways, then I would have no difficulty in letting him live his new life. As it is, no one, not even the man himself, could say when the butcher could return. This is where I find the difficulty. Simply hope for the best and let him live his new life? When I think of those around him who trust in him, I can not be so sanguine. I prefer to prevent death, not avenge it. Change may be the only constant, but even change follows patterns. A baby changes to a child, a child changes to an adult, and an adult becomes elderly, and finally dies. One may die early, but a baby does not suddenly become an adult. (Magic can create exceptions). The seasons change constantly, but spring is always followed by summer, summer is followed by fall, fall is followed by winter, and winter ends to be replaced by a new spring. (VERY strong magic can again make exceptions). For the man, change could easily mean following his new life, or returning to his old one.
Devil Gnasher 06-28-07, 06:20 PM	"Sir Boydson what would you say about these old necromancer variants (http://gctm.free.fr/add/necromant/necromancers.html)? As you can tell I have a special hatred towards undead-masters and archetypal necromancers. I just want to know what you think on this matter. As I've aleady told I'm a deathslayer necromancer you know that not all necromancers practice the Dark Arts. -Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer." OOC: Barthold Dehmer uses the deathslayer kit converted into a 3.5 edition class.
Callista 06-28-07, 07:57 PM	"I haven't actually used poison myself. Reputation is important to a paladin; the people look up to you, and if they see you being underhanded, their trust in you can be shattered. That's important. When they look at a paladin, they see Good itself--someone trustworthy; someone who won't ever let them down."i would wish this was true but a sad fact of life is that what people truly see when looking at a paladin is an arogant fool who think he is oh so much better than evybody(how do you spell that) elsewith, a stick up his a**. Sad but trueWell, if that's the case--and maybe it is, in some places, though not where I come from--doesn't that make it even more important that no one should be able to find fault with you?... People thinking badly of you is no reason to behave badly.
Comus 06-29-07, 01:23 AM	Well, if that's the case--and maybe it is, in some places, though not where I come from--doesn't that make it even more important that no one should be able to find fault with you?... People thinking badly of you is no reason to behave badly. Sorry to cut in here, but I would like to note that one of the central tenets of my order is that we are actively encouraged to ignore the way people see us. If we're worried about our reputations, we may become vain. If we become vain, we may well make poor decisions because we care more about the way people think of us than about getting the job done. Honestly, I feel that no paladin should give much thought to their reputation. It shouldn't matter if we're called heroes when we die, or if bards tell tales of us. All that matters is that we spent our lives in the pursuit of a more perfect world, our lives used as coin to buy the death of Evil. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum
Kalai_Eljahn 06-29-07, 08:17 AM	((Sorry if my post seems a little temporally off -- if I'd posted it the time I wrote it it would be #364. But Jaren made a dramatic speech and I can't bear to waste it. :D In all honesty, now that I've seen the CW he looks more like a Kensai, but without CW Paladin with a splash of Ranger is the closest I could get. /offtopic)) Firstly, your definition of "normal" and mine may not be the same. However, I will assume that you refer to those without great martial prowess, or magic singing in their veins, or the blood of demons or angels in their family. *smiles* In particular, let us say that you mean Luc deMornay, the grown son of one of the farmers living outside of Farrow town. Luc is a friendly lad with a quick smile, but that is all that commends him to be noticed, unless one is learned in the ways of carrot farming. There will likely--and I do mean likely, for it has happened to me and several people I know, not to mention great figures out of history--come a day when humble Luc will shape the world. For his part, it will likely be a small thing. Perhaps he will offer a cup of water to a thirsty messenger, or critique a bard's latest sonnet. It may be so small as a flash of his smile. But one day, a simple action like that may enable the messenger to push that little bit harder, and get to the general in time to halt a war. Or the bard will go on to compose lines of verse to melt a tyrant's heart. Perhaps his smile will prevent a young woman from taking her life. More likely, the smile will inspire a baker to be more generous with the berries in his tarts, which will turn a child's ordinary day into a bright memory that will (with other memories, of course, often brought into life by people like Luc) steer their heart to Good, rather than Evil--an important thing indeed, when the child grows into a mighty archmagus. If Luc withheld these small kindnesses, the world might be a very different, darker place within his own lifetime. Perhaps placing, say, myself, in Luc's shoes would not make any difference. Perhaps we would make all the same choices, with all the same consequences. But perhaps not--perhaps there is a deeply sad maiden who could be saved by a kind farmer boy's smile, rather than the smile of a doddering old Count. ((Hydryh: Doddering, he says! :rolleyes: You're what, fifty? Ian: None of your business, young man. I was making a point.)) *ahem* As for your question regarding the greater Good, that is the path to take when one must choose between what is best for many, and what is best for a few. This does not give you leave to be a tyrant, however--you can choose only for yourself and those who are willing to follow you, or unable to choose for themselves. I do not know this Machiavelli, but by the sound of your words, I doubt we would agree on much. Good ideas are Good only so long as goodness remains a priority for those carrying out the idea. The actions seem so...arbitrary, meaningless, alone. Compared to the whole. Everything else. Perhaps...perhaps if I can visualize the whole of Luc, then I can see what you mean. The good done by the normal persons steered by kindness rather than terror. By the effects of currents of these single ... individuals on the whole, they can warm an ocean. Niccolo Machiavelli...well, I have a bit on him here, if you are interested. *she hands him a sheet of paper pulled from a scroll case* I apologize for the foreign names, but it should give you an impression. At the least it will be simpler than explaining all his works. ((OOC: Which I need to read in more detail than what I got from my history class.)) Machiavelli In the thought of the Italian political philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli may be seen a complete secularization of political philosophy. Machiavelli was an experienced diplomat and administrator, and, since he stated flatly how the power struggle was conducted in Renaissance Italy, he won a shocking reputation. He was not, however, without idealism about the old Roman republic, and he admired the independent spirit of the German and Swiss cities. This idealism made him all the more disgusted with Italian politics, of which he makes a disillusioned and objective analysis. Writing in retirement after political disgrace, Machiavelli states firmly that, Since this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowards, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely: they will offer you their blood, property, life, and children . . . when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And again, since the desires of men are insatiable, nature prompting them to desire all things and fortune permitting them to enjoy but few, there results a constant discontent in their minds, and a loathing of what they possess. This view of human nature, already expressed by Plato and St. Augustine, is here unredeemed by Plato's doctrine of form and illusion or by St. Augustine's dogma of salvation through grace. Machiavelli accepts the facts and advises the ruler to act accordingly. The prince, he states, must combine the strength of the lion with the cunning of the fox: he must always be vigilant, ruthless, and prompt, striking down or neutralizing his adversaries without warning. And when he does an injury it must be total. For “men ought to be either well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot.” Moreover, “irresolute princes who follow a neutral path are generally ruined.” He advises that it is best to come down at the right moment on the winning side and that conquered cities ought to be either governed directly bythe tyrant himself residing there or destroyed. Princes, furthermore, unlike private men, need not keep faith: since politics reflects the law of the jungle, the state is a law unto itself, and normal moral rules do not apply to it. Machiavelli had stated with unblinking realism how, in fact, tyrants behave; and, far from criticizing their conduct or distinguishing between the just prince who rules by law and the tyrant whose laws are in his own breast, he considers that the successful ruler has to be beyond morality since the safety of and expansion of the state are the supreme objective. In this myopic view, the cosmic visions of Aquinas and Dante are disregarded, and politics becomes a fight for survival. Within his terms of reference, Machiavelli made a convincing case, although as an experienced diplomat he might have realized that dependability in fact pays and that systematic deceit, treachery, and violence usually bring about their own nemesis. You have given me much to ponder. With any luck it will prove enlightening. Carlynia Darcian Mine Keep in Mystallin *Carlynia listens to the halfling Kady's story as intently as any paladin in the room.* Milady Small, you are an exemplary storyteller. If truly this is a tradition among your people I would like to spend more time among you.Though it is in my nature to question some of your conclusions, after thought I must admit doing so would only highlight what I fear of myself, and thus have me arguing for that which I am the first of my line to doubt -- an awkward position indeed. Therefore I will merely thank you for the thoughts and questions you have inspired for all of us. *Jaren decides to speak up regarding Kerrix* My friends, allow me to say that I have found myself in a situation in some ways similar to that of Leane. Unlike most who call themselves paladins, I cannot look into another's soul and see evil, and to tell the truth I thank my goddess that is the case. When I was of the rank just below that of a full knight -- not a paladin, for I had trained in other ways before recognizing that call -- I came across a girl fleeing from the enemy we call U-Rek. She was of strange coloration, with ashen skin and eyes of gold, but at the time I did not realize what that meant and of course offered my aid. Surprisingly few, in fact, can recognize her kind, despite their reputation, which I will explain in due course. Once matters had calmed somewhat this girl introduced herself to me as Kalai Eljahn. Eljahn means water in the tongue of sailors and scholars. Kalai told me that she had come from a coastal village which had been devastated by U-Rek, and as far as she knew she was the only survivor, now without home or family. *He looks to Kalai.* It was true, though my home was off the coast, rather than on it. You see, I am of a race of aquatic shapeshifters called the Allemedusae. We can change our form but not our pigmentation, and it is only through great care my race and its masters did not let this weakness be widely known. No creature will trust a known Allemedusa on our world, and those who care for others feel honor-bound to kill us so that we cause no harm, unless they consider themselves masters of us. We are as near alien to humans as devils in our society, slaves, spies, and assassins. I was no different. Not by any human standard. [Jaren] I invited her to the hospitality of Nahara. She watched my practice sessions and asked to learn what I trained in, and so I took her as my squire. Eager to learn and a quick study, she did well at both fencing and archery, and managed to master some basics of tracking. Never did she give me reason to doubt her willingness to serve at my side. To say sooth I am somewhat of a loner; loyalty and friendship are not the same. Kalai was the first being I considered a friend and equal, and we worked well as a team. [Kalai] My side of the story...is a bit more difficult to tell. A fragment of U-Rek had infected my mind and fought to gain control, confusing my thoughts. My master Veshen, half drake and half dragon, was driven near to rage by the loss of my community and spared far more thought on vengeance than on me, but I was still bound to him by oath. He instructed me to get in a position to assassinate the Naharan druid Vinaevva [Jaren flinches] which I was uniquely poised to do, if uniquely unsuited compared to the rest of my race. By Allemedusan standards I am as emotional as Kajhera -- don't giggle, Jaren, it's unbecoming. [Jaren tries to stifle a laugh.] -- Kajhera being goddess of passion and volcanoes -- though humans find those standards a bit strange. [She smiles.] Standards being that emotions are not worth basing actions on in the least. In any case I eventually realized that I cared what happened to Jaren, whether he lived or died. To the extent that I did was a crime by the laws of my people. The code of the allemedusae includes loyalty to the self above all, and I knew that I would have to kill him to redeem myself so that I had no corrupting loyalty to another. [Jaren] It came to pass both that I learned her true nature and that she attempted this. In fact we have sought each other's deaths more than once. Eventually, though, our bond of companionship triumphed over that of enmity. [Kalai] I abandoned all I held to be true. I am a traitor to myself, the only treachery condemned by the laws of my kind. I am a criminal and an outcast without ... real ... values. And yet, and yet I am glad for what is. [Jaren] I would have killed her, when first we met, had I been able to peer into her soul and recognize what she was. Today I understand what might have come from that, and what by kindness though unintentional instead I accomplished. Therefore I ask you not to be so swift to judge and instead see what Leane sees, how Kerrix fights against the taint in his nature -- however inadequate it may seem, for a being whose nature is evil, any such action is a sign of hope. A possibility of redemption, a tendency she might with her influence and trust turn toward good. We are all free to choose our paths. Yes, any reasoning creature can forsake its origins. In the mythology of Earth angels fell for pride, embracing instead the opposite of good in a quest for vengeance. In my own world Kajhera chose to forsake the Abyss after she learned more of all that was. The very embodiments of Good and Evil can with effort transform themselves, if what they have known so encourages that. But to know only condemnation and zealotry will not turn any evildoer's heart to rejoice in good, any more than kindness breeds hatred in those around. For the shadow is destined to love the light, and follow ever faithfully where he treads; do not scorn those who ask you for guidance, however dark their way. Do not be yet another who hates them. Instead, show them what it means to be Good.
Hydryh 06-29-07, 12:02 PM	"Sir Boydson what would you say about these old necromancer variants (http://gctm.free.fr/add/necromant/necromancers.html)? As you can tell I have a special hatred towards undead-masters and archetypal necromancers. I just want to know what you think on this matter. As I've aleady told I'm a deathslayer necromancer you know that not all necromancers practice the Dark Arts. -Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer." OOC: Barthold Dehmer uses the deathslayer kit converted into a 3.5 edition class. The Anatomist strikes me as akin to boys who pull the wings off of flies. A slippery slope to Evil there. The Deathslayer is a noble concept, and I wish those who tread that path the best of luck. The Philosopher seems even more likely than the Anatomist to slip into Evil's claws, merely for the sake of knowledge. Knowledge is valuable, but not worth the cost of a soul. The Undead Master is a child in an adult's body, but armed with dangerous magics. A Witch is not inherently evil, but stands to be watched carefully. The Ghul Lord is an abomination. I hope that I have been of help, friend.
Hydryh 06-29-07, 12:41 PM	((I'm sorry to say that I'm going to be moving on the first of July. As such, Ian and I will be off-line for an unknown amount of time. Thank you all for keeping this thread going so strongly, and I hope that Ian will have many new creative questions to answer when I return! Peace! :cool: ))
Elsydeon 06-29-07, 01:29 PM	*A man with a somewhat different appearance than the rest of those present stands up, clasping his hands before him. His skin color is a bit off, though he's obviously human. Likely a foreigner. The design on his red robes suggests this as well. His hair flows down to his ankles, likely a sign of nobility wherever he's from, as the man seems quite comfortable speaking in front of the crowd.* This discussion has been an interesting one, to be sure. I must admit I know little of your order. I come from a... distant land, so to speak. So I'm afraid I may have to ask for some more basic knowledge, if you would be so kind as to give it. But I've gotten ahead of myself. I am Nezhi, and I thank you all for welcoming me into this meeting so freely. I sincerely hope my ignorance can be cured. *The man smiles warmly and greets those who have spoken individually before continuing* You speak of your order as though you are not the same as warriors. Yet much of what I hear contradicts this. You fight your enemies in the same fashion a soldier would, go to war when called on, strive to defend your homes and the innocents of your lands. And so I am confused about what distinguishes you from a warrior. I've heard mention of inspiring others to goodness in our discussion today. While this is a noble goal we all know that anyone can inspire others. I've recently been traveling with a Vanaran Monk... a strange one, let me tell you. And though he seems unwise at times, often because he risks injury or death before hurting someone who openly attacks him, I can't deny that he has inspired his long-term companions to strive for peace and goodness in their adventures. Tacticians and commanders often dedicate themselves to the inspiration of others rather than their own personal strength. Since true inspiration requires that no magical or divine compulsion be placed on the inspired... in other words, that one change their actions freely... certainly we can all agree that this is not something specific to your order. Nor is it likely that you do it any better than a great general who is not a member of your group, or my monk friend. Also people here have spoken about a code you live by. I simply don't see how this distinguishes you from a soldier. Don't misunderstand me, it's simply that in my homeland nearly all warriors... all citizens, follow a code of honor. Most consider it almost sacred in and of itself, but in reality it is little more than a contract on how to treat others. Even if you find yourselves on opposite ends of the battlefield. Since any man can easily have a set of rules he lives by this doesn't feel, to me at least, that it distinguishes your order. I have also heard mention of gods. This could certainly be a distinguishing feature, as the divine gifts would differentiate you. But it has been said that serving a god is unnecessary in your order, and that your abilities need not come from one. And so, again, I am at a loss. If you are more skilled or more powerful than a warrior, would that not simply mean you are just a good warrior and not something different? No, there certainly must be something else I am failing to see. If I have missed something that others have not mentioned because it is common knowledge to your people I apologize and look forward to learning. I humbly ask those who would know more than I, what makes a Paladin different than any Fighter with similar beliefs? ((OOC: Sorry, I'll be going further with this, but I have to get the initial stuff out of the way if I'm going with this character.))
Devil Gnasher 06-29-07, 04:09 PM	"Not all anatomists are morbid little freaks obsessed with carving apart dead bodies. Just think about the good doctor Jonathan Ellington. His reason for becoming an anatomist was to use medical knowledge to alleviate suffering and prolong life and health. He also uses the many surgeries he performs as a replacement for the standard dissection/autopsy. While some of his fellow anatomists see a living creature as nothing more than a collection of nerves, vessels and tissue Doctor Ellington sees a corpse as a once living creature. In his mind the dead body of any sentient race is to by treated with the utmost care and reverence, even during examination. Doctor Ellington often times suffers from melancholia and mild depression due to the simple fact that he can't save all of his patients. In his early years as a doctor a six-teen year-old girl developed sepsis and died under his care. No matter how hard he tried he just couldn't save her life. Afterward he suffered a near complete nervous breakdown. So don't judge all anatomists only by the worst among them. -Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse."
Thegans 06-29-07, 05:16 PM	((Sorry if my post seems a little temporally off -- if I'd posted it the time I wrote it it would be #364. But Jaren made a dramatic speech and I can't bear to waste it. :D In all honesty, now that I've seen the CW he looks more like a Kensai, but without CW Paladin with a splash of Ranger is the closest I could get. /offtopic)) The actions seem so...arbitrary, meaningless, alone. Compared to the whole. Everything else. Perhaps...perhaps if I can visualize the whole of Luc, then I can see what you mean. The good done by the normal persons steered by kindness rather than terror. By the effects of currents of these single ... individuals on the whole, they can warm an ocean. Niccolo Machiavelli...well, I have a bit on him here, if you are interested. *she hands him a sheet of paper pulled from a scroll case* I apologize for the foreign names, but it should give you an impression. At the least it will be simpler than explaining all his works. ((OOC: Which I need to read in more detail than what I got from my history class.)) You have given me much to ponder. With any luck it will prove enlightening. Carlynia Darcian Mine Keep in Mystallin *Carlynia listens to the halfling Kady's story as intently as any paladin in the room.* Milady Small, you are an exemplary storyteller. If truly this is a tradition among your people I would like to spend more time among you.Though it is in my nature to question some of your conclusions, after thought I must admit doing so would only highlight what I fear of myself, and thus have me arguing for that which I am the first of my line to doubt -- an awkward position indeed. Therefore I will merely thank you for the thoughts and questions you have inspired for all of us. *Jaren decides to speak up regarding Kerrix* My friends, allow me to say that I have found myself in a situation in some ways similar to that of Leane. Unlike most who call themselves paladins, I cannot look into another's soul and see evil, and to tell the truth I thank my goddess that is the case. When I was of the rank just below that of a full knight -- not a paladin, for I had trained in other ways before recognizing that call -- I came across a girl fleeing from the enemy we call U-Rek. She was of strange coloration, with ashen skin and eyes of gold, but at the time I did not realize what that meant and of course offered my aid. Surprisingly few, in fact, can recognize her kind, despite their reputation, which I will explain in due course. Once matters had calmed somewhat this girl introduced herself to me as Kalai Eljahn. Eljahn means water in the tongue of sailors and scholars. Kalai told me that she had come from a coastal village which had been devastated by U-Rek, and as far as she knew she was the only survivor, now without home or family. *He looks to Kalai.* It was true, though my home was off the coast, rather than on it. You see, I am of a race of aquatic shapeshifters called the Allemedusae. We can change our form but not our pigmentation, and it is only through great care my race and its masters did not let this weakness be widely known. No creature will trust a known Allemedusa on our world, and those who care for others feel honor-bound to kill us so that we cause no harm, unless they consider themselves masters of us. We are as near alien to humans as devils in our society, slaves, spies, and assassins. I was no different. Not by any human standard. [Jaren] I invited her to the hospitality of Nahara. She watched my practice sessions and asked to learn what I trained in, and so I took her as my squire. Eager to learn and a quick study, she did well at both fencing and archery, and managed to master some basics of tracking. Never did she give me reason to doubt her willingness to serve at my side. To say sooth I am somewhat of a loner; loyalty and friendship are not the same. Kalai was the first being I considered a friend and equal, and we worked well as a team. [Kalai] My side of the story...is a bit more difficult to tell. A fragment of U-Rek had infected my mind and fought to gain control, confusing my thoughts. My master Veshen, half drake and half dragon, was driven near to rage by the loss of my community and spared far more thought on vengeance than on me, but I was still bound to him by oath. He instructed me to get in a position to assassinate the Naharan druid Vinaevva [Jaren flinches] which I was uniquely poised to do, if uniquely unsuited compared to the rest of my race. By Allemedusan standards I am as emotional as Kajhera -- don't giggle, Jaren, it's unbecoming. [Jaren tries to stifle a laugh.] -- Kajhera being goddess of passion and volcanoes -- though humans find those standards a bit strange. [She smiles.] Standards being that emotions are not worth basing actions on in the least. In any case I eventually realized that I cared what happened to Jaren, whether he lived or died. To the extent that I did was a crime by the laws of my people. The code of the allemedusae includes loyalty to the self above all, and I knew that I would have to kill him to redeem myself so that I had no corrupting loyalty to another. [Jaren] It came to pass both that I learned her true nature and that she attempted this. In fact we have sought each other's deaths more than once. Eventually, though, our bond of companionship triumphed over that of enmity. [Kalai] I abandoned all I held to be true. I am a traitor to myself, the only treachery condemned by the laws of my kind. I am a criminal and an outcast without ... real ... values. And yet, and yet I am glad for what is. [Jaren] I would have killed her, when first we met, had I been able to peer into her soul and recognize what she was. Today I understand what might have come from that, and what by kindness though unintentional instead I accomplished. Therefore I ask you not to be so swift to judge and instead see what Leane sees, how Kerrix fights against the taint in his nature -- however inadequate it may seem, for a being whose nature is evil, any such action is a sign of hope. A possibility of redemption, a tendency she might with her influence and trust turn toward good. We are all free to choose our paths. Yes, any reasoning creature can forsake its origins. In the mythology of Earth angels fell for pride, embracing instead the opposite of good in a quest for vengeance. In my own world Kajhera chose to forsake the Abyss after she learned more of all that was. The very embodiments of Good and Evil can with effort transform themselves, if what they have known so encourages that. But to know only condemnation and zealotry will not turn any evildoer's heart to rejoice in good, any more than kindness breeds hatred in those around. For the shadow is destined to love the light, and follow ever faithfully where he treads; do not scorn those who ask you for guidance, however dark their way. Do not be yet another who hates them. Instead, show them what it means to be Good. "I am at a lose as to how you broke the rule of loyalty to your self above all. If I understand correctly Kalai your kind is normally the victim of genocide meaning that it would have been more likely that you would have been killed if it was someone else. Could it simply be that you just realize that it is more beneficial to keep him alive? Perhaps you heard of my mentioning of a group called the Abandoned. It's secondary purpose the one I mentioned is to put an end to monarchies on my home world but I originally organized it because I knew that despite my outsider blood that by my self I was the same as any other orphan a minor inconvienence but no real threat," Simul said, "The thing a person should care about the most is there own survival and the only thing that should equal that is the survival of those that can help them survive. That is why I organized the Abandoned and why I work with the devils." "You forgot to mention that the actual purpose of the Abandoned is to prepare the world for the thirteenth comming of the Holy Slaughter," Tim said. "That became the primary purpose a while after it was organized. I will not see my world devistated by the Far Realm while the Gods retreat to their hiding places like it has been the last twelve times. This time the gods will fall, the clerics and there followers will be unable to retreat, and those beings from the Far Realm will be driven away permanently," Simul said, "Don't even mention the celestials if the records of histroy are right they retreated also because these beings created weapons that only they can use that allow them to be ressurected on there homeworld if they are killed by that weapon. I mean you would think the celestials would have helped but no becuase these far realm beings are good aligened because they think that we are there dead." "Isn't that similar to what people advocate when it comes to Kalai's species?" Tim asked. "You can't exterminate them their limitless I simply intend on driving them back into the Far Realm and making sure that the rift can never be opened again by turning the remains of the gods into a barrier between our world and the Far Realm," Simul said. *A man with a somewhat different appearance than the rest of those present stands up, clasping his hands before him. His skin color is a bit off, though he's obviously human. Likely a foreigner. The design on his red robes suggests this as well. His hair flows down to his ankles, likely a sign of nobility wherever he's from, as the man seems quite comfortable speaking in front of the crowd.* This discussion has been an interesting one, to be sure. I must admit I know little of your order. I come from a... distant land, so to speak. So I'm afraid I may have to ask for some more basic knowledge, if you would be so kind as to give it. But I've gotten ahead of myself. I am Nezhi, and I thank you all for welcoming me into this meeting so freely. I sincerely hope my ignorance can be cured. *The man smiles warmly and greets those who have spoken individually before continuing* You speak of your order as though you are not the same as warriors. Yet much of what I hear contradicts this. You fight your enemies in the same fashion a soldier would, go to war when called on, strive to defend your homes and the innocents of your lands. And so I am confused about what distinguishes you from a warrior. I've heard mention of inspiring others to goodness in our discussion today. While this is a noble goal we all know that anyone can inspire others. I've recently been traveling with a Vanaran Monk... a strange one, let me tell you. And though he seems unwise at times, often because he risks injury or death before hurting someone who openly attacks him, I can't deny that he has inspired his long-term companions to strive for peace and goodness in their adventures. Tacticians and commanders often dedicate themselves to the inspiration of others rather than their own personal strength. Since true inspiration requires that no magical or divine compulsion be placed on the inspired... in other words, that one change their actions freely... certainly we can all agree that this is not something specific to your order. Nor is it likely that you do it any better than a great general who is not a member of your group, or my monk friend. Also people here have spoken about a code you live by. I simply don't see how this distinguishes you from a soldier. Don't misunderstand me, it's simply that in my homeland nearly all warriors... all citizens, follow a code of honor. Most consider it almost sacred in and of itself, but in reality it is little more than a contract on how to treat others. Even if you find yourselves on opposite ends of the battlefield. Since any man can easily have a set of rules he lives by this doesn't feel, to me at least, that it distinguishes your order. I have also heard mention of gods. This could certainly be a distinguishing feature, as the divine gifts would differentiate you. But it has been said that serving a god is unnecessary in your order, and that your abilities need not come from one. And so, again, I am at a loss. If you are more skilled or more powerful than a warrior, would that not simply mean you are just a good warrior and not something different? No, there certainly must be something else I am failing to see. If I have missed something that others have not mentioned because it is common knowledge to your people I apologize and look forward to learning. I humbly ask those who would know more than I, what makes a Paladin different than any Fighter with similar beliefs? ((OOC: Sorry, I'll be going further with this, but I have to get the initial stuff out of the way if I'm going with this character.)) "A fighter is better combat wise and a paladin gets some weak divine spells and a free horse," Simul said. "Divine magic is not weak," Tim said. "It is outside of its use by druids and the followers of devils and demons. Take the miracle spell for example and its aracne counterpart the wish spell. For example I wish for a plain bagel with butter," Simul said. A bagel appeared in Simul's hand. "Arcane magic is dependable if I used a miracle spell and told a god or an alignment force to get me a bagel I would have probably lost access to my spells," Simul said. "You wasted a wish spell on a bagel," Tim said. "You're right I can't believe I forgot the most important thing. I wish the bagel was toasted," Simul said. Simul began to eat the bagel after it was toasted. "So what you're going to waste a third wish on something to drink?" Tim said. "Why would I do that if I already have a bottle of water ?" Simul said.
Brandavis_Arkanon 06-29-07, 06:38 PM	I have also heard mention of gods. This could certainly be a distinguishing feature, as the divine gifts would differentiate you. But it has been said that serving a god is unnecessary in your order, and that your abilities need not come from one. And so, again, I am at a loss. If you are more skilled or more powerful than a warrior, would that not simply mean you are just a good warrior and not something different? No, there certainly must be something else I am failing to see. If I have missed something that others have not mentioned because it is common knowledge to your people I apologize and look forward to learning. I humbly ask those who would know more than I, what makes a Paladin different than any Fighter with similar beliefs? ** An elderly man, wrapped in tattered black robes appears where Elsydeon once sat. In his lap he grasps subconsciously, in a gentle stroking fasion, upon a heavy leather bound tome. His eye brows are white, long, and nearly match the length of his fine beard. he is cowled, and despite his frail appearance speaks with a thunderous voice unbecoming of his age.** "You are right to question such things, traveller," he begins. "The clear distinction is a pragmatic one; power. Paladins have certain powers. It is truely all that distinguishes them. They would claim it is sourced through their 'perfection' of morality, but that oft has been false in my recollection of events." The dark wizard taps sharply on the hardened leather of his tome, "They are defined by their powers. How they are gained and lost is subject to much debate, but that is where their distinction ends. They manipulate magic through their will, bolstered by foreign entities at times, or through their own skill...But it is merely magic...An emotional primal magic unlike the arcane. It is...difficult to measure. Difficult to reproduce. But, in the end, its just power." (( PS: This thread delivers. =) ))
Stormbrand 06-29-07, 07:36 PM	*A man with a somewhat different appearance than the rest of those present stands up, clasping his hands before him. His skin color is a bit off, though he's obviously human. Likely a foreigner. The design on his red robes suggests this as well. His hair flows down to his ankles, likely a sign of nobility wherever he's from, as the man seems quite comfortable speaking in front of the crowd.* This discussion has been an interesting one, to be sure. I must admit I know little of your order. I come from a... distant land, so to speak. So I'm afraid I may have to ask for some more basic knowledge, if you would be so kind as to give it. But I've gotten ahead of myself. I am Nezhi, and I thank you all for welcoming me into this meeting so freely. I sincerely hope my ignorance can be cured. *The man smiles warmly and greets those who have spoken individually before continuing* You speak of your order as though you are not the same as warriors. Yet much of what I hear contradicts this. You fight your enemies in the same fashion a soldier would, go to war when called on, strive to defend your homes and the innocents of your lands. And so I am confused about what distinguishes you from a warrior. I've heard mention of inspiring others to goodness in our discussion today. While this is a noble goal we all know that anyone can inspire others. I've recently been traveling with a Vanaran Monk... a strange one, let me tell you. And though he seems unwise at times, often because he risks injury or death before hurting someone who openly attacks him, I can't deny that he has inspired his long-term companions to strive for peace and goodness in their adventures. Tacticians and commanders often dedicate themselves to the inspiration of others rather than their own personal strength. Since true inspiration requires that no magical or divine compulsion be placed on the inspired... in other words, that one change their actions freely... certainly we can all agree that this is not something specific to your order. Nor is it likely that you do it any better than a great general who is not a member of your group, or my monk friend. Also people here have spoken about a code you live by. I simply don't see how this distinguishes you from a soldier. Don't misunderstand me, it's simply that in my homeland nearly all warriors... all citizens, follow a code of honor. Most consider it almost sacred in and of itself, but in reality it is little more than a contract on how to treat others. Even if you find yourselves on opposite ends of the battlefield. Since any man can easily have a set of rules he lives by this doesn't feel, to me at least, that it distinguishes your order. I have also heard mention of gods. This could certainly be a distinguishing feature, as the divine gifts would differentiate you. But it has been said that serving a god is unnecessary in your order, and that your abilities need not come from one. And so, again, I am at a loss. If you are more skilled or more powerful than a warrior, would that not simply mean you are just a good warrior and not something different? No, there certainly must be something else I am failing to see. If I have missed something that others have not mentioned because it is common knowledge to your people I apologize and look forward to learning. I humbly ask those who would know more than I, what makes a Paladin different than any Fighter with similar beliefs? ((OOC: Sorry, I'll be going further with this, but I have to get the initial stuff out of the way if I'm going with this character.)) We are warriors. On the battlefield, I stand as one with the warriors beside me. For me at least, paladins are not seperate from warriors, they are seperate from other warriors. Shall we look at your description of a warrior? Go to war when called upon, striving to defend our homes and the innocents of our lands. For a paladin, there is more to it. We strive to defend the homes of others and the innocents of their lands, not just our own. While any true warrior acts as you describe, many who claim the mantle take up the sword more selfishly. Men-at-arms and militia can act unjustly and misuse their strength against the weak. The word 'warrior' does not always bring the connotations of strength and honour. When one speaks of warriors or soldiers, one may speak of good-hearted protectors and champions or may speak of vicious reavers. Speaking of paladins, one speaks of righteous defenders without fail. Your second subject, inspiration. Indeed your monk friend can inspire men to greater virtue, and a great leader can inspire men to valour and loyalty, in both cases much the same as a paladin would inspire. Here I see the difference as that most paladins should inspire as does both your monk friend and a great general. As for the Code, holding it sacred is an important part of paladinhood. For most, honour is as you said, a contract of how to treat others. For a paladin, it is a way of life. Working miracles is a large part of what sets us aparts from other warriors. Few warriors can mend the flesh of a wounded comrade with a touch, nor purge illness from the sick. Perhaps all we are is pious warriors who can work miracles? If so, I have no regrets.
Comus 06-29-07, 07:49 PM	** An elderly man, wrapped in tattered black robes appears where Elsydeon once sat. In his lap he grasps subconsciously, in a gentle stroking fasion, upon a heavy leather bound tome. His eye brows are white, long, and nearly match the length of his fine beard. he is cowled, and despite his frail appearance speaks with a thunderous voice unbecoming of his age.** "You are right to question such things, traveller," he begins. "The clear distinction is a pragmatic one; power. Paladins have certain powers. It is truely all that distinguishes them. They would claim it is sourced through their 'perfection' of morality, but that oft has been false in my recollection of events." The dark wizard taps sharply on the hardened leather of his tome, "They are defined by their powers. How they are gained and lost is subject to much debate, but that is where their distinction ends. They manipulate magic through their will, bolstered by foreign entities at times, or through their own skill...But it is merely magic...An emotional primal magic unlike the arcane. It is...difficult to measure. Difficult to reproduce. But, in the end, its just power." (( PS: This thread delivers. =) )) Bah! You clearly do not understand what it means to be a Paladin. It isn't about power. Power it's what makes us different from normal warriors. It isn't about gods. Many of us don't worship gods at all. It's about a willingness to take responsibility for our actions. A wizard doesn't have to worry about violating his moral code. A thief won't lose his ability to pick locks if he refuses to save an innocent life. But a Paladin chooses their path knowing that our strengths can be taken from us in an instant if we fail to walk the path of righteousness. To me, it is also a statement that if I should fall from the path of light, I will not give the forces of evil as much as I have taken from them. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Tyraxus 06-29-07, 08:21 PM	Bah! You clearly do not understand what it means to be a Paladin. It isn't about power. Power it's what makes us different from normal warriors. It isn't about gods. Many of us don't worship gods at all. It's about a willingness to take responsibility for our actions. A wizard doesn't have to worry about violating his moral code. A thief won't lose his ability to pick locks if he refuses to save an innocent life. But a Paladin chooses their path knowing that our strengths can be taken from us in an instant if we fail to walk the path of righteousness. To me, it is also a statement that if I should fall from the path of light, I will not give the forces of evil as much as I have taken from them. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. *A man, dressed in clothing that can be called both great and plain, in colours of green, black, and silver, stands upon hearing these words* You are right, fool. My spells do not forsake me, my fingers do not fumble, should I decide not to save an innocent's life. But do not make the arrogant mistake of thinking your own code's shackles so much tighter than mine own. My bonds are different, not less. Should I fail to study, fail to practice that which is important to me, my magic and my manual prowess will suffer and die no differently than your "divine gifts." *Here the man's frame is outlined by flames of cold blue, and his eyes blaze with the fury of a thousand suns* And while we're on the topic of your precious "code of conduct" and your powers: You labour against your concept of "evil," and for that you are granted powers by the strength of your faith alone. How else can one explain the fact that no worship of a deity is required to be a high-and-mighty paladin? Thus it stands to reason that the loss of a paladin's powers, as great a consequence as you will ever know, is not due to a vengeful deity or breaking your oh-so-dear code. Nay, it is because you have lost your faith. Faith in your ideals, faith in your code, and since you place your ideals and code in such an intrinsic part of who you are, you have therefore lost faith in yourself. The power is still there, but you are too afraid, too weak to access or use it because you feel that you are no longer worthy of it. You place these shackles on yourselves, and when you grow beyond your youthful idealism, you feel that you should no longer be able to use your powers, and therefore you cannot. No deity or ideal "revokes" your powers... you take them away from yourself in a misguided and quite probably entirely subconscious act of grief and contrition. *The mage's fury subsides, and is replaced by a flicker of something that could almost be called worry. He mumbles a word and makes a precise gesture with the digits of one hand, and then vanishes into thin air.* OOC: You know what? I miss this character. Always thoughtful, always pragmatic, and utterly hating the idea of direct dependency upon anyone or anything else.
Stormbrand 06-29-07, 08:30 PM	*The mage's fury subsides, and is replaced by a flicker of something that could almost be called worry. He mumbles a word and makes a precise gesture with the digits of one hand, and then vanishes into thin air.* Oh. He's gone. Saves me having to answer him. *shrugs*
Comus 06-29-07, 08:40 PM	Oh. He's gone. Saves me having to answer him. *shrugs* Gone? Invisible, at least. I'd say there's still a good chance he's watching. From afar, perhaps. I've not worked with many wizards, though I've fought against them often enough to have learned that the simple answer is rarely the correct one. The mage suggested that a paladin's power comes from within. He is half-correct. What most people would call my power - my ability to turn undead, my spells, my loyal mount - do not come from me. They come from the idea of Good itself, as much an elemental force as Fire or Water. So he is wrong, there. But the other half of my power, the part I feel is most important, does come from within. That part is my fighting spirit, my conscience, my determination. I could do battle against evil without my spells, without my horse. But if I lost my spirit, my sense of justice... Then, none of the rest would matter. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Devil Gnasher 06-29-07, 09:47 PM	Gone? Invisible, at least. I'd say there's still a good chance he's watching. From afar, perhaps. I've not worked with many wizards, though I've fought against them often enough to have learned that the simple answer is rarely the correct one. The mage suggested that a paladin's power comes from within. He is half-correct. What most people would call my power - my ability to turn undead, my spells, my loyal mount - do not come from me. They come from the idea of Good itself, as much an elemental force as Fire or Water. So he is wrong, there. But the other half of my power, the part I feel is most important, does come from within. That part is my fighting spirit, my conscience, my determination. I could do battle against evil without my spells, without my horse. But if I lost my spirit, my sense of justice... Then, none of the rest would matter. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin. "This quote best explains what a paladin or other consecrated knight is in essence." "I do not mean a saint, but a warrior whom God gave more than common gifts and then put under a more than common burden." -- Martinus, in Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson.
Tyraxus 06-29-07, 09:51 PM	*Disembodied laughter fills the room* Very good, Herr Paladin. I am indeed still watching, and I find your companion's lack of respect for a mage's abilities heartening for myself and my breathren. If even part of your powers come from some external or even (blasphemously, elemental) source of "Good," as you claim, then how do you explain other varieties of "Paladin," such as those commonly known as Blackguards or their lesser servants, those who can cause festering disease with a touch and smite those such as yourselves as easily as you would them (OOC: Paladins of Tyrrany and Slaughter, from Unearthed Arcana)? Your powers are yours because you believe in them, the same as any other wielder of so-called "divine" magic.
Braekor Dragonfang 06-29-07, 10:10 PM	*Jaren decides to speak up regarding Kerrix* My friends, allow me to say that I have found myself in a situation in some ways similar to that of Leane. Unlike most who call themselves paladins, I cannot look into another's soul and see evil, and to tell the truth I thank my goddess that is the case. When I was of the rank just below that of a full knight -- not a paladin, for I had trained in other ways before recognizing that call -- I came across a girl fleeing from the enemy we call U-Rek. She was of strange coloration, with ashen skin and eyes of gold, but at the time I did not realize what that meant and of course offered my aid. Surprisingly few, in fact, can recognize her kind, despite their reputation, which I will explain in due course. Once matters had calmed somewhat this girl introduced herself to me as Kalai Eljahn. Eljahn means water in the tongue of sailors and scholars. Kalai told me that she had come from a coastal village which had been devastated by U-Rek, and as far as she knew she was the only survivor, now without home or family. *He looks to Kalai.* It was true, though my home was off the coast, rather than on it. You see, I am of a race of aquatic shapeshifters called the Allemedusae. We can change our form but not our pigmentation, and it is only through great care my race and its masters did not let this weakness be widely known. No creature will trust a known Allemedusa on our world, and those who care for others feel honor-bound to kill us so that we cause no harm, unless they consider themselves masters of us. We are as near alien to humans as devils in our society, slaves, spies, and assassins. I was no different. Not by any human standard. [Jaren] I invited her to the hospitality of Nahara. She watched my practice sessions and asked to learn what I trained in, and so I took her as my squire. Eager to learn and a quick study, she did well at both fencing and archery, and managed to master some basics of tracking. Never did she give me reason to doubt her willingness to serve at my side. To say sooth I am somewhat of a loner; loyalty and friendship are not the same. Kalai was the first being I considered a friend and equal, and we worked well as a team. [Kalai] My side of the story...is a bit more difficult to tell. A fragment of U-Rek had infected my mind and fought to gain control, confusing my thoughts. My master Veshen, half drake and half dragon, was driven near to rage by the loss of my community and spared far more thought on vengeance than on me, but I was still bound to him by oath. He instructed me to get in a position to assassinate the Naharan druid Vinaevva [Jaren flinches] which I was uniquely poised to do, if uniquely unsuited compared to the rest of my race. By Allemedusan standards I am as emotional as Kajhera -- don't giggle, Jaren, it's unbecoming. [Jaren tries to stifle a laugh.] -- Kajhera being goddess of passion and volcanoes -- though humans find those standards a bit strange. [She smiles.] Standards being that emotions are not worth basing actions on in the least. In any case I eventually realized that I cared what happened to Jaren, whether he lived or died. To the extent that I did was a crime by the laws of my people. The code of the allemedusae includes loyalty to the self above all, and I knew that I would have to kill him to redeem myself so that I had no corrupting loyalty to another. [Jaren] It came to pass both that I learned her true nature and that she attempted this. In fact we have sought each other's deaths more than once. Eventually, though, our bond of companionship triumphed over that of enmity. [Kalai] I abandoned all I held to be true. I am a traitor to myself, the only treachery condemned by the laws of my kind. I am a criminal and an outcast without ... real ... values. And yet, and yet I am glad for what is. [Jaren] I would have killed her, when first we met, had I been able to peer into her soul and recognize what she was. Today I understand what might have come from that, and what by kindness though unintentional instead I accomplished. Therefore I ask you not to be so swift to judge and instead see what Leane sees, how Kerrix fights against the taint in his nature -- however inadequate it may seem, for a being whose nature is evil, any such action is a sign of hope. A possibility of redemption, a tendency she might with her influence and trust turn toward good. We are all free to choose our paths. Yes, any reasoning creature can forsake its origins. In the mythology of Earth angels fell for pride, embracing instead the opposite of good in a quest for vengeance. In my own world Kajhera chose to forsake the Abyss after she learned more of all that was. The very embodiments of Good and Evil can with effort transform themselves, if what they have known so encourages that. But to know only condemnation and zealotry will not turn any evildoer's heart to rejoice in good, any more than kindness breeds hatred in those around. For the shadow is destined to love the light, and follow ever faithfully where he treads; do not scorn those who ask you for guidance, however dark their way. Do not be yet another who hates them. Instead, show them what it means to be Good. * Leane chuckles lightly, her head resting on Kerrix's shoulder "That's quite the tale, and yet it only seems to prove that no matter how many worlds apart, and no matter how different the people residing in them, love makes the impossible merely improbable. I think people pre-judge others far too much, paladins especially. Surely I'll never look at an evil soul the same way, and it made me realize that a paladin must be more wise than dedicated, or their blind dedication may lead to their downfall."
Comus 06-29-07, 10:26 PM	*Disembodied laughter fills the room* Very good, Herr Paladin. I am indeed still watching, and I find your companion's lack of respect for a mage's abilities heartening for myself and my breathren. If even part of your powers come from some external or even (blasphemously, elemental) source of "Good," as you claim, then how do you explain other varieties of "Paladin," such as those commonly known as Blackguards or their lesser servants, those who can cause festering disease with a touch and smite those such as yourselves as easily as you would them (OOC: Paladins of Tyrrany and Slaughter, from Unearthed Arcana)? Your powers are yours because you believe in them, the same as any other wielder of so-called "divine" magic. Blackguards. *Spit* Just as there is an elemental, objective Good, there is its opposite. Blackguards are mostly drawn from the ranks of formerly good men corrupted by evil. They lost the place in them where the greatest part of the mortal spirit resided, where hope and justice once stood. In its place is only a wound filled with the festering maggot of evil. For some I feel pity, but for all of them I feel hate. And as for other so-called "Paladins"... they really don't deserve the title. They're either so concerned with breaking down what they see as oppression that they never pause to consider what's best for the greater good ((OOC: Paladins of Freedom)), they're despotic tyrants who believe in order - but only so long as that order helps them, or they're psychotic madmen so corrupted by the ruinous powers that it's a wonder they don't kill themselves for sport. My powers don't exist because I believe in them. They exist because they believe in me. ~Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Tyraxus 06-29-07, 10:59 PM	*More disembodied laughter floats through the room* So on top of your hatred towards those different from yourself and your arrogance in thinking yourself better than those around you, you show even greater arrogance by usurpin the title "Paladin" and denying it to other champions of causes, for that is all the word means. That is indeed what the word means in this character's world (strangely enough, he had so many aliases that I never bothered to give him a real name, though that's usually what I do first for all my characters). I am fully aware that the word came about as a description of the guardians of the Roman Emperour, and later the Praetorian Guard, but since the Imperial and Praetorian Guardsmen were supposed to be the elite of the Roman military, one might say that the word "champion" is really the historical definition of "Paladin" after all. And since you insist on your illogical and contradictory notion of the origin of your powers, I will skip the intellectual runabout and present you with your inconsistency directly: If your powers exist via some external force's blessing, then (the mage's voice rises) how in the name of the Pact Primeval can an amorphous or nebulous concept such as Good or Justice consciously grant power? The gods, I will admit, are fully aware and thoughtful, but how can a subjective state of being like Good or Evil posess the amount of cognitive capacity to feel basic emotions, let alone make weighty judgements about the worthiness of a mortal's soul to receive powers? (Here the voice thunders triumpantly)You cannot have it both ways. Either a god is required to grant powers, or powers come from within and not without. And since, as we have been told, no god is required, only devotion to a particular path, then we are left with only the second option. Your powers are yours via faith, and taken away with the loss thereof!
Caelic 06-29-07, 11:19 PM	A small, nondescript man in the corner looks up. Scrawny, almost emaciated, he wears a threadbare robe in a color that can only be described as "dust." His feet are bare, his head clean-shaven. He winces slightly at the volume of the invisible wizard's declarations; his own voice is soft. "Learned one, you fail to consider all possibilities," he says, in a mild voice. "Consider this: Evil and Good are absolute forces. They exist; they can be detected; they can be measured. This is not subject to the relative morality of the viewer; a spell intended to detect evil will reveal the same things to be evil whether it is cast by a Paladin or the cruelest tyrant, whether the source is a wizard's spellbook or a god's providence." The small man gestures languidly to indicate the two extremes. His face is grave, but his eyes hold the hint of a smile. "Now: we know that such spells exist, and that they can ascertain the difference between Good and Evil. Most young wizards barely out of their apprenticeships have mastered the art of crafting a ward of protection from evil. Once the ward is raised, the caster needs exercise no conscious thought in determining which creatures will be affected. Nor does the ward need to exercise conscious thought in determining what will be affected. It simply is, and those who are evil are affected." He extends one slender finger. "Now: if the simplest of spells is capable of responding to the presence or absence of good or evil without the need for conscious thought, why imagine that the primal forces of Good and Evil cannot do the same? Why is it such a stretch to imagine that Good will know its own...and that a falling away from that Goodness will close the door to it?" Now, the small man does smile. His smile, like everything else about him, is a trifle worn around the edges, but serviceable. "A spell of Forbiddance can deny access to someone with evil in his heart. The spell does not need consciousness to do so. It is not so very difficult to imagine that Goodness can also deny access to someone with evil in his heart without needing consciousness to do so." A pause; then: "Of course, one might ask the question: why do you presume that Good and Evil have no consciousness of their own?"
Elsydeon 06-30-07, 12:03 AM	*Nezhi speaks up once more* And why do you presume that they primal forces cannot grant power even if they have no consciousness? Often individuals are simply open to an outside force. Just as a tree will catch on fire more easily than a stone, so too might men have differences that allow some to tap into certain forces. No, I think what is important with this order is why they receive so much attention. It seems they are hated or honored, few are apathetic. That is more than a little intriguing to me. Perhaps those who are not of the order of the Paladin could elaborate? So far I have learned they are warriors with a few unique abilities and a strong sense of morality. Certainly nothing that overshadows, at least based on the flashy appearance... and disappearance... of the wizard, the others here. Not to say they are weaker, but certainly the fear and prejudice of the ignorant would target the Wizard's unnatural abilities before thought would be given to Paladins being a danger. So why are they so loved and hated?
Caelic 06-30-07, 12:17 AM	Again, the weatherbeaten little man in the corner smiles faintly. "Perhaps it is because they represent an epitome," he ventures. "By their existence, Paladins represent the idea that there is an ideal. Perhaps that ideal can be attained; perhaps it cannot." He pauses to sip from the cup of tea in front of him, then continues. "People react to ideals in different ways. Some look up to it as something that can be admired, but not achieved by normal folk. Some embrace it and seek to achieve it themselves. Some resent it...because the unspoken aspect of any ideal is that many, if not most, will fall short of the mark. Will be found wanting." He shakes his head slowly. "And there are some who resent that so strongly that they seek to tear down the ideal...to prove that it is false. For if they can prove that the ideal is an illusion...why, then, there is no reason to strive for it. Whatever values of convenience may be held, they do not fall short of the ideal, because there is no longer an ideal against which they can be measured."
Tyraxus 06-30-07, 12:28 AM	*The mage's voice subsides to a more conversational level, and sounds... appreciative?* I thank you for your courtesy, robed sage, and shall attempt to return it, as you appear interested in the pursuit of knowledge rather that the pretentions of arrogance so common amongst the Paladin orders. Yes, the barrier against Evil is well within the grasp of even the lowliest of my pupils, and the graduates of my academy, those that survive their studies, are quite familiar with it. However, the same principles of the spell can be applied to form barriers against Good, or Law, or Chaos. And this very spell, the circle of protection, is what convinces me of the truth of my words, that Good and Evil, like Law and Chaos, are universal forces, states of being, if you will, and not powers or beings. One might even go far enough to call them elements or energy sources, though these source pairs, Law and Chaos, Good and Evil, oppose each other. Thus, the spell of protection is the same spell, only it channels the opposite force from that which it attempts to block: Good energy to block Evil, and vice versa. Ask a cleric or Paladin to cast Detect Evil on a recepient of the Protection from Good spell, and they will tell you that there is Evil present, no matter what the spell was cast on. This is also why I know that Good, Evil, Law and Chaos do not have sentience or personalities. Those with cognitive capacities, even the gods themselves, can be fickle and vary their behaviour. Pelor and Heironeous themselves, for example, agree with the Arch-Devil Asmodeus from time to time, if the Pact Primeval holds even a grain of truth. However, these forces, like the elements making up the multitude of existance, do not vary in their reactions to one another. No intelligence is so inhumanly consistent over the multitude of centuries they have been studied. But forces, elements, and other pieces of the world governed by strict physical laws rather than intelligence can. Iron rusts when exposed to water and air. Air rises above water and oil will not mix within it. And Good opposes Evil, as does Law Chaos. They simply must be unintelligent, unalive forces, for there is nothing else that they can be. As for your question, my scarlet-clad friend, granting power implies some measure of intelligence. And as I have just shown, Good does not have intelligence, so no power can be granted. I will readily admit that some men, through their strength of faith, are able to tap into such powers just as I do by study and strength of mind, but that is what I have said all along, is it not? That Paladins are not "blessed" or "endowed" with power, but that it comes from their faith?
Caelic 06-30-07, 01:15 AM	The small man inclines his head, both in gratitude for the diminished volume and in acknowledgement of the words spoken. "We are in agreement that these forces have existence apart from our small and subjective perceptions, then," he says. "But I am not convinced of the absolute correctness of two of your suppositions. Firstly, that elemental, primal forces cannot have sentience. It would clearly be a form of sentience very different from that which we possess; perhaps even beyond our comprehension. Who can say?" Again, the small smile. "I have met many men who would tell me that rocks cannot speak, that the fire cannot have a mind; that the wind blows without thought or intent. That these are forces, not creatures with consciousness and intent. And yet, to an accomplished wizard such as yourself, the idea of sentient beings of stone or of fire or of air is commonplace. Is it not?" He sets down his teacup, now empty. "Perhaps Good and Evil...and Law and Chaos...are the same. Perhaps they lack sentience of their own, but spawn beings not unlike the elementals spawned of fire or air or stone. And perhaps these beings serve as gatekeepers, granting or denying the strength of their element...or Force, if you will...to those who attempt to call upon them." He spreads his now-empty hands. "Who can truly say? Each time I, in my foolishness, think I see clearly, I come across a new wonder I have never before encountered, one that reminds me of how much there is that I do not know." "Second, I do not think I believe that power cannot be granted without conscious intent. Toss a stick and a stone into a fire; the stick will burn, and the stone will merely grow warm. The power of the fire to burn has been granted to the stick, but without conscious intent on the part of the fire--unless, of course," he smiles, "The fire is one of the elementals of which we have spoken. Likewise, the fire can grant other sorts of power...for instance, it can grant a cup of tea the power to warm old bones on a chilly night." So saying, he raises a hand to attract the server and so obtain a refill.
Elsydeon 06-30-07, 01:17 AM	It's possible. But not proven. At the very least there are many here who disagree. Listening to these stories about fallen paladins and blackguards shows a connection between faith and their power. But being related doesn't mean that one causes the other.
Tyraxus 06-30-07, 02:12 AM	*In the blink of an eye, the mage reappears, sitting comfortably in the chair across from the sage. He mutters a word, twitches a finger, and two vessels of liquid appear on the table between them, and an empty cup in front of him. A quill and parchment also appear.* Here, my friend. I believe this is the tea you were drinking? *He refils the sage's cup, and pours a drink of his own from the other pot.* And this for me. You raise an interesting point, that of a Good or Chaotic elemental. I believe that would be an interesting research project. Even more interesting would be an interaction between elementals of opposing forces. Back to the matter at hand, though. Yes, elementals are indeed sentient beings, but they are made of the elements and magic, they are not the elements themselves. I'm not sure of the exact process, it's something I've been wanting to get around to figuring out for years now, but I have a feeling that the magic plays a large role in an elemental's sentience, far more so than any connection to the prime element, else we'd see simple bonfires talking. I'd need to do more research before committing to anything more concrete, though. You mentioned a flame granting the power to burn... I think we have a difference in opinion as to what "power" actually is. Power is not energy, I believe, because those that hold the most power over life and death are those that can sever those cords directly, not assault them with fire or frost spells. The "Slay Living" and "Finger of Death" spells, while brutal, hold far more power and are far more complex than a simple fireball or lightning bolt. You mentioned a branch having the power to burn while a stone does not... I can cast a fire spell at one thing, and the same spell at another thing, and get completely different results. The same amount of energy would be imparted to each object, but each object's properties, its elemental makeup, would determine the response. For example, the same spell can boil water, melt steel, or burn hay. The same spell does the same thing, for the magics do not change, so it must be an interaction in properties between the fire and the target material, not some choice of the fire to grant the ability to burn, for as I said, the magics allow the fire to only act only in the same mannar each time.
Comus 06-30-07, 02:29 AM	*Bludbayn thinks for a moment* Hm. An interesting thought has occurred to me. An elemental is made of two things - an animating spirit and a body made of a pure element. The animating spirit is needed because Air, Earth, Fire, and Water are, by themselves, merely things. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos, on the other hand, are ideas without form. They can only exist within another thing. You can't have a block of pure Law, or a whisp of Evil. What if there already are elementals of Good, Evil, and the rest? What if that is exactly what a Paladin is - an elemental of an alignment? Perhaps the power leaves us when we fall not because we lose faith in ourselves, but because we are no longer elementally 'pure'. A Paladin doing Evil would be like a Fire elemental going swimming - even if it was foolish enough to do so, it would not survive the experience for long. The paladin's spirit is lost, and he is left merely a normal man. The elemental's body is lost, and it dies. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin.
Tyraxus 06-30-07, 03:50 AM	Are they really only ideas without form or substance? Why, then, does a newborn Orc child show as Evil when you cast Detect Evil on it? Nay, if Good, Evil, and the rest are objective then they are forces or particles. A thought occurs to me, though. In the multiverse of planes, there exist planes of both negative energy and positive energy. Perhaps these are essences of Evil and Good, respectively. For are not undead created and animated via the application of negative energy? And are not they Evil creatures? Is there any other difference between a corpse and a zombie than the application of said negative energy (the mage genuinely asks: he has not extensively studied the necromantic arts)? Do not corpses show NOTHING when any Detect spell is cast upon them? *The mage sits back and sips his steaming drink, deep in thought*
Stormbrand 06-30-07, 06:50 AM	Are they really only ideas without form or substance? Why, then, does a newborn Orc child show as Evil when you cast Detect Evil on it? The don't, but that is another point. Children are born innocent.
Stormbrand 06-30-07, 08:12 AM	*Disembodied laughter fills the room* Very good, Herr Paladin. I am indeed still watching, and I find your companion's lack of respect for a mage's abilities heartening for myself and my breathren. Dear mage, I merely find that when confronted with such childish antics that it is more entertaining to deny the perpetrator the satisfaction of an awed or impressed response. That, and if you must speak from afar, do so. If you can be present for us to direct our answers to, it is only a courtesy. Your powers are yours via faith, and taken away with the loss thereof! False, and no amount of yelling will make that so. Faith is one factor, perhaps, but I have seen paladins who doubt themselves work their miracles just as easily, and in my own case I was working miracles before I was even aware that I was a paladin. The only constant I have seen is that a paladin must stay true to their principles.
Magon 06-30-07, 10:07 AM	now, dear paladins, i have spoken before and now i speak again. i am a psion, a telepath. i'm not the kind of telepath that does nothing but charm other peaple, tweaking there minds just a little to like me, or seek to use my me powers for information and dimonation only. no i am a soldier, but my battlefield is the mind. i can lock the minds of my foes rendering them helpless. i can strike then with pain so intense that i actualy harms then, at times sendimg them stright to hell. i can crush there wills and send them into coma, by smasing there ego and sense of self to bits. i can even compel them to drive there own sword trough them self, or lock them away in there own dreams or nightmares as the case may be. is this any more good or evil than stabbing them with pointet sitks?
Stormbrand 06-30-07, 10:30 AM	now, dear paladins, i have spoken before and now i speak again. i am a psion, a telepath. i'm not the kind of telepath that does nothing but charm other peaple, tweaking there minds just a little to like me, or seek to use my me powers for information and dimonation only. no i am a soldier, but my battlefield is the mind. i can lock the minds of my foes rendering them helpless. i can strike then with pain so intense that i actualy harms then, at times sendimg them stright to hell. i can crush there wills and send them into coma, by smasing there ego and sense of self to bits. i can even compel them to drive there own sword trough them self, or lock them away in there own dreams or nightmares as the case may be. is this any more good or evil than stabbing them with pointet sitks? (OOC: please use capitals, it makes it easier to read). Much of that does seem far more brutal than the sword or spear. Destroying one's sense of self is mental mutilation, on par with amputating limbs. Inflicting psychic agony is torture. Compelling one to drive their own sword through themselves once they are under your power is the slaughter of the defeated, for one under mental compulsion is already under your power. As you say, you can lock the minds, so anything you do from there is done to a helpless prisoner. Of course, combat is brutal, but I prefer a clean kill. Many of these methods seem needlessly cruel. Perhaps to be used when there is need, but not as a favoured method.
Kalai_Eljahn 06-30-07, 10:40 AM	I am at a lose as to how you broke the rule of loyalty to your self above all. If I understand correctly Kalai your kind is normally the victim of genocide meaning that it would have been more likely that you would have been killed if it was someone else. Could it simply be that you just realize that it is more beneficial to keep him alive? *The 'genocide' comment seems to have touched some long-buried nerve in Kalai.* In conflicts between species we are not normally the victims but the predators. I would not call it genocide if the paw-deer tries to fight the drake in whose talons he is trapped. No creature aside from U-Rek has launched a campaign against our home, and to accuse U-Rek of such motivations as normally go with genocide does not make sense, for its desire is to infest as many creatures as possible, not merely one type. *She collects herself and answers the more relevant part of the question.* My sin was not in wanting to keep Jaren alive, but in my loyalty to him. According to the code of my people I should be ready to kill him as soon as it would be beneficial to me to do so, and I was -- am -- not. You said something about the Abandoned not being allowed to take orders from anyone -- an allemedusa can and often must take orders, but must maintain loyalty to themselves first, and pledge obediance only to another. The concept of loyalty in this case is not an action, but a motivation. It has ties to the human concepts of friendship and love, both possibly selfish but neither acceptable. Though in truth there is a greater loyalty which largely remains unspoken, loyalty to the concept of species. Reproducing with another creature as an equal, rather than as prey to be incorporated into the genome, is a violation of this. "That's quite the tale, and yet it only seems to prove that no matter how many worlds apart, and no matter how different the people residing in them, love makes the impossible merely improbable. I think people pre-judge others far too much, paladins especially. Surely I'll never look at an evil soul the same way, and it made me realize that a paladin must be more wise than dedicated, or their blind dedication may lead to their downfall." [Jaren] It is true, I only truly embraced the paladin's call after I began to question my prejudices. And stopped trading death threats quite as often with the dementist who sometimes accompanies my party. *small smile* It would not normally be my choice to adventure with a creature of such powerful evil as Lichezu is, but she is as honest as any paladin and has learned not only a measure of respect for what is good, but has even come to love one of the most gentle men I have ever met. As well it is not truly my choice, seeing how much more powerful she is than I, and yet for the most part she follows what I suggest. It is a curious thing, in truth, and though I doubt it is possible for her to turn from evil entirely perhaps it will be possible to redeem the mistakes of her first life. *Of course, Lichezu is not one to let her ears burn, and a creature steps out of nowhere in particular. At first glance you might guess were-dire rat in hybrid form. Most of her body, including her face, is covered in black rags which form a sort of robe and veil. What is visible of her body is quite scarred, her teeth bloodied. Her fingertips have small blades attached to each claw and a dagger-sized blade is on the tip of her tail. Most paladins can easily detect her as evil, and her aura of menace gives a clue to everyone else as well. She nods very slightly to Jaren but does not seem to acknowledge Kalai's existance.* "My first life being, in Jaren's world, the daughter of Evil. I have begun to rediscover those ancient powers. Jaren is correct that I seek redemption -- not from what I am, but from what I did. My lover then was the son of Good, curiously enough." *She smiles slightly, though it twists into half a scowl, the memories being no less bitter for being forcibly dragged out of the millenia.* "I gave birth to a daughter, but hated her, for compared to her father she was a pale mockery as corrupt as I was and arrogant enough to pretend righteousness. Of course, I tore her apart in a rage. That is basically what I have sought to atone for these long years. I fled my world and lived in repeated mortal reincarnations of myself, seeking to subject myself to as much pain as I could bear and remain functional; and also power and immortality, for reasons partly related and partly not." "Normally I'd not be seen in such a place, but I would hate for you to get a false idea of me from Jaren." *She takes a seat and listens to the conversation around her.*
Magon 06-30-07, 12:04 PM	(OOC: please use capitals, it makes it easier to read). Much of that does seem far more brutal than the sword or spear. Destroying one's sense of self is mental mutilation, on par with amputating limbs. Inflicting psychic agony is torture. Compelling one to drive their own sword through themselves once they are under your power is the slaughter of the defeated, for one under mental compulsion is already under your power. As you say, you can lock the minds, so anything you do from there is done to a helpless prisoner. Of course, combat is brutal, but I prefer a clean kill. Many of these methods seem needlessly cruel. Perhaps to be used when there is need, but not as a favoured method. remember, the scars i inflict will heal over time, just like those of swords and spears. Is it worse to think you are hit by a swrod that actualy be hit by a sword? And for the death urge, i do not, and often cannot, use my foes as puppets, that is not what i have traind most in. I simply make them wish them self dead. This can often raise the morale of our men, and lower that of the opponents. Also, please observe, that most of what i speak op renders them helpless. I try to end battles without blod shed. And my friend, when you face a dark sorcerer you will not mind that i have renderd him unable to cast his best spells by crushing his ego and sense of self
Caelic 06-30-07, 12:28 PM	*In the blink of an eye, the mage reappears, sitting comfortably in the chair across from the sage. He mutters a word, twitches a finger, and two vessels of liquid appear on the table between them, and an empty cup in front of him. A quill and parchment also appear.* Here, my friend. I believe this is the tea you were drinking? *He refils the sage's cup, and pours a drink of his own from the other pot.* And this for me. The small man smiles and nods a thank-you, long, thin fingers closing over the cup. You raise an interesting point, that of a Good or Chaotic elemental. I believe that would be an interesting research project. Even more interesting would be an interaction between elementals of opposing forces. "Just so! We know, for instance, that there are beings of positive and negative energy, and that interactions between them can be...quite spectacular. I am thinking here of the Xag-Ya and the Xeg-Yi." He sets down his cup again. "But, though many think of positive energy as "good," and negative energy as "evil," they are not Good and Evil; we must seek elsewhere if we wish to ascertain the existence of such creatures." Back to the matter at hand, though. Yes, elementals are indeed sentient beings, but they are made of the elements and magic, they are not the elements themselves. I'm not sure of the exact process, it's something I've been wanting to get around to figuring out for years now, but I have a feeling that the magic plays a large role in an elemental's sentience, far more so than any connection to the prime element, else we'd see simple bonfires talking. I'd need to do more research before committing to anything more concrete, though. The sage considers this, and also Bludbayn's comment, his face lighting up in delight. "Aha! Now there is a very interesting thought. Learned one, the worthy paladin poses an interesting line of thought. Truly, an elemental of fire is not simply fire...but he draws power from the element of fire, because he is of fire. The fire does not need to consciously grant him that power; it is a matter of like to like. Is it not possible that Paladins, by their nature, are of Good (or of Evil, in the case of Blackguards) in the same sense that elementals are of their element? That they draw power from Good (or Evil) because of the Law of Association?" The sage sits back, clearly pleased with the new possibilities of this line of thought. "If that were so, you would be both right and wrong. Faith alone, belief alone, would not be sufficient to grant power or deny it. If it were, we would see evil men accessing the power of Good, because they truly and wholeheartedly believe themselves and their actions to be good." He shakes his head. "No; it seems more likely that faith leads a Paladin to purify himself, that that purity gives him an essential quality of Goodness, and that that quality allows him to access the wellspring of power. Losing faith would still cost him that power, but indirectly; losing faith would mean losing that absolute, essential Goodness...and that would deny power." You mentioned a flame granting the power to burn... I think we have a difference in opinion as to what "power" actually is. Power is not energy, I believe, because those that hold the most power over life and death are those that can sever those cords directly, not assault them with fire or frost spells. The "Slay Living" and "Finger of Death" spells, while brutal, hold far more power and are far more complex than a simple fireball or lightning bolt. The little man nods. "Power can mean many things to many people," he agrees. "Our ancestors who first shivered in the darkness...to them, I think, fire was indeed Power. There are those who might argue that life and death are simply other aspects of energy, the Positive and the Negative; the spells you mentioned certainly tap the Negative to accomplish their aims, do they not? A baby who cries has power, for more often than not, the mother will give her life to defend her child. A tyrant whose people fear him has power, for he sways them to his will through that fear. Love is Power; fear is Power." You mentioned a branch having the power to burn while a stone does not... I can cast a fire spell at one thing, and the same spell at another thing, and get completely different results. The same amount of energy would be imparted to each object, but each object's properties, its elemental makeup, would determine the response. "Indeed! And this brings us back to the worthy Paladin's thought: perhaps it is the elemental makeup of a Paladin--his "elemental goodness," I suppose we could call it--that causes him to be able to draw from Goodness, where another man would simply have it wash over him and be unable to make use of it."
Tyraxus 06-30-07, 12:58 PM	The don't, but that is another point. Children are born innocent. OOC: Oops, I need to check myself more carefully. We normally play that Orcs have the Evil subtype, so even newborns will show up on DE, but looks like that's a Houserule and not RAW. My apologies. Strike that argument and use some other creature with the Evil subtype in its place. The sage sits back, clearly pleased with the new possibilities of this line of thought. "If that were so, you would be both right and wrong. Faith alone, belief alone, would not be sufficient to grant power or deny it. If it were, we would see evil men accessing the power of Good, because they truly and wholeheartedly believe themselves and their actions to be good." He shakes his head. "No; it seems more likely that faith leads a Paladin to purify himself, that that purity gives him an essential quality of Goodness, and that that quality allows him to access the wellspring of power. Losing faith would still cost him that power, but indirectly; losing faith would mean losing that absolute, essential Goodness...and that would deny power." *The mage rocks back in his chair, startled at the thought* Good sage, you make a very good point. This bears more thought. *The mage begins rapidly scribbling formulae and arcane diagrams on the parchment, whilst mumbling to himself. He suddenly reminds you of a smug professor caught in a fallacy, and is now genuinely delighted at a new problem to solve* (OOC: Good point, but I don't have the time to think it through atm, as I'm supposed to move into a new apartment later today. When I come back to the thread in a week or so, remind me about this.)
Stormbrand 06-30-07, 01:42 PM	remember, the scars i inflict will heal over time, just like those of swords and spears. Is it worse to think you are hit by a swrod that actualy be hit by a sword? And for the death urge, i do not, and often cannot, use my foes as puppets, that is not what i have traind most in. I simply make them wish them self dead. This can often raise the morale of our men, and lower that of the opponents. Also, please observe, that most of what i speak op renders them helpless. I try to end battles without blod shed. And my friend, when you face a dark sorcerer you will not mind that i have renderd him unable to cast his best spells by crushing his ego and sense of self. If that is how the 'death urge' works I have no problems with it in combat. Psychic injuries which simulate physical harm are fine, which is different to inflicting agony on the mind. With the dark sorcerer, of course I would not mind, given the immediate danger he presents. Diminishing his will and power in battle is something different to reducing them to a broken and empty shell.
Magon 06-30-07, 01:52 PM	it seams that we did go wrong on each other, then. and on the sorcerer i do not think that i would be able to dismiss him completely into a coma, as they are normally quite willful and have allot of ego to burn trough, so to speak. however remember that ogres, trolls and allot of brutes are quite easy to send into coma, which would be my first reaction. then, over time, the scars i inflict will heal unless idecide, for some reason or another, to kill them
Zandolit 06-30-07, 04:37 PM	*The Duskling has been silent for awhile, listening intently. She looks slightly pained at the descriptions of suffering, and seems a little lost during the more abstract discussions of the nature of good and evil. She has been knitting quickly and with practiced ease as the others talked, not a garment for the baby she mentioned before, but an adult-sized scarf.* As I've said, I'm no paladin, but I agree with Aorle about the situation with the goblins. The killing of non-combatants, and particularly of children, is not an acceptable strategy. I understand that it was more convenient, but it was not right. Some of those goblin children would indeed, in all probability, have grown up to be evil. But some of everybody will grow up to be evil. It’s no more acceptable to slaughter goblin children to prevent evil than to slaughter human children to prevent it. You had refugees in your care, and they became your responsibility. Killing those refugees may relieve you of the responsibility, but cannot be considered the execution of your duty. Killing them is a way of banishing the problem, but is not a real, long-term solution. The goblins are gone, but should the situation arise in the future with some other group, you are no more prepared to deal with it than you were. Just killing everyone is neither moral nor practical. Fighting for good is more than just swinging a sword at an enemy. It means accepting the consequences of the decisions you make. Those don’t end when you walk off the battlefield. I would suggest avoiding fighting at all if you are not prepared to deal with the responsibility of those left behind. Refugees, non-combatants, and the children of your enemies should be treated with compassion and mercy, even if that involves a great deal of work, inconvenience, and even risk. *She looks at Kerrix and Leane for a moment.* Kerrix, you remind me a bit of a friend of mine. She’s a Tiefling too. She betrayed me and gave me this… *She indicates a scar on her left forearm, a long-healed wound from a rapier.* It’s a bad memory, but not my only memory of battles fought together. I remember other times too, times after we were friends again. Times after I’d forgiven her betrayal. I remember her standing between me and a chain devil, nearly unconscious but screaming at me not to heal her because she didn’t want me to get too near. I remember her standing beside me over the body of another friend, a friend we couldn’t save, telling me that it wasn’t my fault and that she wasn’t going to let me hurt myself because of it. I remember her helping me with a party I planned to try and rally our community, not because she cared about the party (or even the community) but because she knew it meant a lot to me. Evil doesn’t have to be forever, not even for Tieflings. I’m glad you have Leane. I hope you’ll have a happy life together, and that you’ll continue to encourage him to do the right thing, Leane. That can make such a difference… *She folds the scarf carefully, then passes it to Simul.* I made this for you. I know what it feels like to be abandoned by those who ought to care about you, and I can only imagine how much more horrible it must be for a child. I’ve told you about my son, but I have two other children, daughters we adopted. I didn’t speak of them before not because of lack of care for them—they are just as much our children as my baby is—but because they were not abandoned, they ran away, and I was afraid to speak about them in a group of people I didn’t know. The girls were not exactly born, but were created for a specific purpose… one that, were they to fulfill it, could do great damage both to innocent people and to the girls themselves. A man spent a great deal of time and money to acquire them, and so believes he owns them and would seek to get them back. He sees them as property, whereas my husband and I consider them our daughters. I mention all this only to explain why I didn’t speak of them before. Anyway, I have talked at length to one of my daughters about how it feels to live without the love of a parent, and how lonely it is. So while I haven’t experienced firsthand what your life has been like, I know what it feels like to comfort one who has. I’ve felt pain like that through my daughter. Simul, your life is one I can’t imagine, or even begin to understand. I have a great deal of sympathy for you, but I can’t think of much I could do to help. That’s why I made you the scarf… to show you that I wished I could help you. I wish there was more I could do. I hope you’ll find peace someday. -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer (and Amateur Psychologist ;))
Khadmus 06-30-07, 06:43 PM	*A male human walks through the door. He smiles, waves, and sits down in a corner. He registers as dimly evil.* Justice be with you all.
Thegans 06-30-07, 09:21 PM	*Disembodied laughter fills the room* Very good, Herr Paladin. I am indeed still watching, and I find your companion's lack of respect for a mage's abilities heartening for myself and my breathren. If even part of your powers come from some external or even (blasphemously, elemental) source of "Good," as you claim, then how do you explain other varieties of "Paladin," such as those commonly known as Blackguards or their lesser servants, those who can cause festering disease with a touch and smite those such as yourselves as easily as you would them (OOC: Paladins of Tyrrany and Slaughter, from Unearthed Arcana)? Your powers are yours because you believe in them, the same as any other wielder of so-called "divine" magic. 'Can I copy that spell?" Simul asked. Are they really only ideas without form or substance? Why, then, does a newborn Orc child show as Evil when you cast Detect Evil on it? Nay, if Good, Evil, and the rest are objective then they are forces or particles. A thought occurs to me, though. In the multiverse of planes, there exist planes of both negative energy and positive energy. Perhaps these are essences of Evil and Good, respectively. For are not undead created and animated via the application of negative energy? And are not they Evil creatures? Is there any other difference between a corpse and a zombie than the application of said negative energy (the mage genuinely asks: he has not extensively studied the necromantic arts)? Do not corpses show NOTHING when any Detect spell is cast upon them? *The mage sits back and sips his steaming drink, deep in thought* "That is not correct. There are certain safe areas on the positive energy plane that contain crystal trees that unborn souls grow from before being born but anywhere else and you will burn like the sun. If positive energy was the energy of good then all beings would be good because positive energy is the energy used in the construction of a soul," Simul said, "Positive energy is not good or evil. In fact there is a possiblity that it might simply be sentience." [QUOTE=Kalai_Eljahn;12914333]*The 'genocide' comment seems to have touched some long-buried nerve in Kalai.* In conflicts between species we are not normally the victims but the predators. I would not call it genocide if the paw-deer tries to fight the drake in whose talons he is trapped. No creature aside from U-Rek has launched a campaign against our home, and to accuse U-Rek of such motivations as normally go with genocide does not make sense, for its desire is to infest as many creatures as possible, not merely one type. *She collects herself and answers the more relevant part of the question.* My sin was not in wanting to keep Jaren alive, but in my loyalty to him. According to the code of my people I should be ready to kill him as soon as it would be beneficial to me to do so, and I was -- am -- not. You said something about the Abandoned not being allowed to take orders from anyone -- an allemedusa can and often must take orders, but must maintain loyalty to themselves first, and pledge obediance only to another. The concept of loyalty in this case is not an action, but a motivation. It has ties to the human concepts of friendship and love, both possibly selfish but neither acceptable.. "We can not have superiors or inferiors as for orders thats tricky. Once we finish voting on a goal no Abandoned will deviate from that goal. We had one member who before being kidnaped by Levistus was incahrge of all war plans because he was litterally a master stratagist but if any of us disagreed with one of his plans they would never have been used," Simul said, "As for it being beneficial perhaps that time will never come. I have an associate a half devil druid name Kulim who was once asked to destroy one of two barbarian clans by a dryad because the local environment could not support both of them. Kulim had each clan pick a representative. He teleported them to the opposite ends of a frozen wasteland with nothing but an awakened cow and the material necessary to make a fire. Neither representative could make a fire and neither of them knew that they would be teleported back in twenty hour hours. The cows however knew how to make fire. One barbarian ate his cow as soon as he got hungry and froze to death. The other didn't have any food that day but he did not freeze to death either." "I doubt you will ever be in a situation like that but it might not even become an issue ever. Just consider two things. Is his presence preferable to his absence? And is he more useful to you alive than he is dead?" Simul said. Though in truth there is a greater loyalty which largely remains unspoken, loyalty to the concept of species. Reproducing with another creature as an equal, rather than as prey to be incorporated into the genome, is a violation of this. "Oh that. You could just not have sex or use spells to prevent yourself from getting pregnant. If anything you use one of those shape shifting spells to give birth to a pureblood allemedusa," Simul said, "Or if he dies you could try to get a druid to use a reincarnate spell and maybe he will become an allemedusa then you could just find some scrolls to allow him to assume his original form." (ooc: Just curious are the allemedusa homebrewed? If not what book are they in?) [Jaren] It is true, I only truly embraced the paladin's call after I began to question my prejudices. And stopped trading death threats quite as often with the dementist who sometimes accompanies my party. *small smile* It would not normally be my choice to adventure with a creature of such powerful evil as Lichezu is, but she is as honest as any paladin and has learned not only a measure of respect for what is good, but has even come to love one of the most gentle men I have ever met. As well it is not truly my choice, seeing how much more powerful she is than I, and yet for the most part she follows what I suggest. It is a curious thing, in truth, and though I doubt it is possible for her to turn from evil entirely perhaps it will be possible to redeem the mistakes of her first life. *Of course, Lichezu is not one to let her ears burn, and a creature steps out of nowhere in particular. At first glance you might guess were-dire rat in hybrid form. Most of her body, including her face, is covered in black rags which form a sort of robe and veil. What is visible of her body is quite scarred, her teeth bloodied. Her fingertips have small blades attached to each claw and a dagger-sized blade is on the tip of her tail. Most paladins can easily detect her as evil, and her aura of menace gives a clue to everyone else as well. She nods very slightly to Jaren but does not seem to acknowledge Kalai's existance.* "My first life being, in Jaren's world, the daughter of Evil. I have begun to rediscover those ancient powers. Jaren is correct that I seek redemption -- not from what I am, but from what I did. My lover then was the son of Good, curiously enough." *She smiles slightly, though it twists into half a scowl, the memories being no less bitter for being forcibly dragged out of the millenia.* "I gave birth to a daughter, but hated her, for compared to her father she was a pale mockery as corrupt as I was and arrogant enough to pretend righteousness. Of course, I tore her apart in a rage. That is basically what I have sought to atone for these long years. I fled my world and lived in repeated mortal reincarnations of myself, seeking to subject myself to as much pain as I could bear and remain functional; and also power and immortality, for reasons partly related and partly not." "Normally I'd not be seen in such a place, but I would hate for you to get a false idea of me from Jaren." *She takes a seat and listens to the conversation around her.* "How does that work are you a reincarnate yuggoloth? The spawn of an evil over god? Did some cult create a ritual to fuse a bunch of souls and sacrificial victims to create a being that was evil born flesh that decided to mate with your father or your mother?" Simul asked, "Just curious." *The Duskling has been silent for awhile, listening intently. She looks slightly pained at the descriptions of suffering, and seems a little lost during the more abstract discussions of the nature of good and evil. She has been knitting quickly and with practiced ease as the others talked, not a garment for the baby she mentioned before, but an adult-sized scarf.* As I've said, I'm no paladin, but I agree with Aorle about the situation with the goblins. The killing of non-combatants, and particularly of children, is not an acceptable strategy. I understand that it was more convenient, but it was not right. Some of those goblin children would indeed, in all probability, have grown up to be evil. But some of everybody will grow up to be evil. It’s no more acceptable to slaughter goblin children to prevent evil than to slaughter human children to prevent it. You had refugees in your care, and they became your responsibility. Killing those refugees may relieve you of the responsibility, but cannot be considered the execution of your duty. Killing them is a way of banishing the problem, but is not a real, long-term solution. The goblins are gone, but should the situation arise in the future with some other group, you are no more prepared to deal with it than you were. Just killing everyone is neither moral nor practical. Fighting for good is more than just swinging a sword at an enemy. It means accepting the consequences of the decisions you make. Those don’t end when you walk off the battlefield. I would suggest avoiding fighting at all if you are not prepared to deal with the responsibility of those left behind. Refugees, non-combatants, and the children of your enemies should be treated with compassion and mercy, even if that involves a great deal of work, inconvenience, and even risk. *She looks at Kerrix and Leane for a moment.* Kerrix, you remind me a bit of a friend of mine. She’s a Tiefling too. She betrayed me and gave me this… *She indicates a scar on her left forearm, a long-healed wound from a rapier.* It’s a bad memory, but not my only memory of battles fought together. I remember other times too, times after we were friends again. Times after I’d forgiven her betrayal. I remember her standing between me and a chain devil, nearly unconscious but screaming at me not to heal her because she didn’t want me to get too near. I remember her standing beside me over the body of another friend, a friend we couldn’t save, telling me that it wasn’t my fault and that she wasn’t going to let me hurt myself because of it. I remember her helping me with a party I planned to try and rally our community, not because she cared about the party (or even the community) but because she knew it meant a lot to me. Evil doesn’t have to be forever, not even for Tieflings. I’m glad you have Leane. I hope you’ll have a happy life together, and that you’ll continue to encourage him to do the right thing, Leane. That can make such a difference… *She folds the scarf carefully, then passes it to Simul.* I made this for you. I know what it feels like to be abandoned by those who ought to care about you, and I can only imagine how much more horrible it must be for a child. I’ve told you about my son, but I have two other children, daughters we adopted. I didn’t speak of them before not because of lack of care for them—they are just as much our children as my baby is—but because they were not abandoned, they ran away, and I was afraid to speak about them in a group of people I didn’t know. The girls were not exactly born, but were created for a specific purpose… one that, were they to fulfill it, could do great damage both to innocent people and to the girls themselves. A man spent a great deal of time and money to acquire them, and so believes he owns them and would seek to get them back. He sees them as property, whereas my husband and I consider them our daughters. I mention all this only to explain why I didn’t speak of them before. Anyway, I have talked at length to one of my daughters about how it feels to live without the love of a parent, and how lonely it is. So while I haven’t experienced firsthand what your life has been like, I know what it feels like to comfort one who has. I’ve felt pain like that through my daughter. Simul, your life is one I can’t imagine, or even begin to understand. I have a great deal of sympathy for you, but I can’t think of much I could do to help. That’s why I made you the scarf… to show you that I wished I could help you. I wish there was more I could do. I hope you’ll find peace someday. -Lylessa Uluki, Duskling Healer (and Amateur Psychologist ;)) Simul takes the scarf. "Thanks I appreciate it. As for finding peace I could easily find it but it would be a false peace. My world if the legends are correct will become a battleground for a thirteenth invasion from the far realm in about five years with all of the non true neutral gods and there followers fleeing till the invastions over and coming back after placing there followers incharge of the survivors like they did the other twelve times according to legend and bad legends are always correct," Simul said, "As I said I am lawful evil but in truth I hate allignments and simply use that one because it is currently the most useful and because the Far Realm beings are unexplainably chaotic good." "You know neutral gods have clerics?" Tim said. "I know Obad-hai has the druids but those arent really the same," Simul said. "Put more ranks in knowledge religion Simul," Tim said. "Also since its only fair and I have two extra take these," Simul said. Simul hands what appear to be two platinum coins to Lylessa. "I managed to make three of those coins all of which have a powerful anti divination ward that blocks most divination spells including scrying and detect thoughts, although I never got a chance to test them against epic magic," Simul said, "Give one to each of your daughters. He might try to higher some mages to locate them." Simul's appearance began to change. His hair turned golden, a sinister glow appeared in his eyes,and there was a faint smell of brimstone. The tips of two horns were visible but mostly covered by his hair. "Damn it I hate when that spell ends," Simul said. "Did you memorize it?" Tim asked. "Yeah but I already used all of them up,"Simul said. "Still your coment about the goblins sort of shows my point. I mean its there own fault that the goblins became like that," Simul said. Tim takes out four scrolls. Simul watches as Tim activates all four of them. "Did you cast undetectable allignment?" Tim asked. "No I didn't prepare that spell," Simul said. "According to these four scrolls detect evil, detect chaos, detect law, and detect good. Your not any of them," Tim said. "No I checked before those scrolls are probably just wrong?" Simul said. "You detected as lawful evil after spending time with an aspect of Glasya discussing your plans to destroy your mutual enemy it was residual lawful evil sort of like that smell you probably had when you lived in that sewer," Tim said. "The coins," Simul said. "You left yours at the base so no one could scry on the plans to destroy that monarchy," Tim said. "Then the scrolls are counterfit," Simul said. "Fine be in denial if you want," Tim said. "By the way Lylessa out of curiosity why a healing class wouldn't an incarnum class make more sense considering that dusklings are sort of the incarnum version of a dryad?" Simul asked,"I know dusklings have certain incarnum related abilities so it seems odd so see a duskling with out an incarnum class although you might have some incarnum training."
Callista 06-30-07, 10:28 PM	"It's only about as odd as a halfling being a paladin," Kady laughs. "Come on--look around you! Here are a lot of paladins in tin suits; and here I am in a chain shirt that weighs no more than a good wool coat, and carrying a rapier; and if you didn't know what the emblem on my tunic meant, you'd think I'm just another common rogue, wouldn't you? "Fact is, people don't always choose to do what's expected of them. I should've been a merchant; but there was always something in me that called me to the paladin's cause. Of course, I was silly enough to think that what I was--small and quick, instead of strong and sturdy--meant I couldn't be what I felt I should be. "But that's not true. In everyone, there's a sort of destiny--a call to be something truly good; truly right for you, whether that means being a farmer or a king. I think anyone who listens for it can hear it; but sometimes, the world around you drowns it out; and sometimes, other voices--seductive, evil, or just selfish--are easier to hear. "I was lucky. Maybe the voice of Good is stronger in me than in many people, because a long time ago, one of my family married a gold dragon, and ever since then, we've been a little less flighty, a little more altruistic, a little wiser. Dragon blood in the family... Chance, or the workings of an ultimate Good? I wonder. "That's always been a bit of caution to me, though. I have a lot of good things. I have a family who loved me, and the blood of a dragon in my veins. Those are advantages not everyone has. It reminds me that it hasn't been as easy for other people to listen to the voice of Good, to find their purposes. "It's not as though you can let evil do what it wants... but there's always the potential for redemption, the idea that maybe, if you helped him listen, an evil man might hear the call of Good, and follow it. "That call's always there. You just have to answer. And I guess Lylessa's call was that of a healer. She's lucky, I think. To bring peace and ease pain is a wonderful thing. Far better than the constant battle that seems to be the paladin's lot."
Thegans 06-30-07, 10:41 PM	"It's only about as odd as a halfling being a paladin," Kady laughs. "Come on--look around you! Here are a lot of paladins in tin suits; and here I am in a chain shirt that weighs no more than a good wool coat, and carrying a rapier; and if you didn't know what the emblem on my tunic meant, you'd think I'm just another common rogue, wouldn't you? "Fact is, people don't always choose to do what's expected of them. I should've been a merchant; but there was always something in me that called me to the paladin's cause. Of course, I was silly enough to think that what I was--small and quick, instead of strong and sturdy--meant I couldn't be what I felt I should be. "But that's not true. In everyone, there's a sort of destiny--a call to be something truly good; truly right for you, whether that means being a farmer or a king. I think anyone who listens for it can hear it; but sometimes, the world around you drowns it out; and sometimes, other voices--seductive, evil, or just selfish--are easier to hear. "I was lucky. Maybe the voice of Good is stronger in me than in many people, because a long time ago, one of my family married a gold dragon, and ever since then, we've been a little less flighty, a little more altruistic, a little wiser. Dragon blood in the family... Chance, or the workings of an ultimate Good? I wonder. "That's always been a bit of caution to me, though. I have a lot of good things. I have a family who loved me, and the blood of a dragon in my veins. Those are advantages not everyone has. It reminds me that it hasn't been as easy for other people to listen to the voice of Good, to find their purposes. "It's not as though you can let evil do what it wants... but there's always the potential for redemption, the idea that maybe, if you helped him listen, an evil man might hear the call of Good, and follow it. "That call's always there. You just have to answer. And I guess Lylessa's call was that of a healer. She's lucky, I think. To bring peace and ease pain is a wonderful thing. Far better than the constant battle that seems to be the paladin's lot." "Still seems like a waste considering if I remember correctly the incarnum classess also have healing abilities rivaling that of a cleric. I mean I have a few devil allies and I hate most celestials but that doesn't mean I am not going to use the protection from evil spell like ability I get from the minor celestial bloodline," Simul said. "Its not as odd as someone with a minor celestial, an intermediate demon, and a major devil bloodline traveling with an imp with a vow of silence, and an aboleth trapped in the body of a human child carrying arround his shrunken corpse in his pocket," Tim said. The imp begins to tap in morse code. "No just a vow of silence you didn't take any other feats," Tim said. "So how do you explain him?" Simul said. "Geas," Tim said.
Zandolit 07-01-07, 03:05 AM	*The Duskling seems about to refuse the coins-- the scarf was a gift, and she has no desire to be paid for it-- but then, hearing what their purpose is, she nods and slips them into the pouch at her waist.* Thank you. I'll bring them to my daughters. That will certainly be a great help in protecting them. I will not allow them to be harmed. *A look of determination crosses her face, and for just a moment she looks like the sort of person who might indeed be willing and able to face down an evil god, as she and her friends did years ago. It passes, and she's back to her usual, meeker expression.* I'm grateful for your generous gift, and I'm sure the girls will be too. As for my calling... technically I'm a shaman, with Fire as my patron element. In recent years, however, I've focused solely on healing rather than on combat. I just call myself a healer because that's how I see myself. I've been in a lot of battles, and I've seen a lot of enemies fall... and friends. Not all of our enemies fell, though. Those that didn't became our friends on several occasions. In fact, my husband and I were mortal enemies when we first met, not even because of differing goals and ideologies but because of a grave misunderstanding. I started to feel guilty every time I cast a spell to hurt someone, because I began to think that people generally weren't all that different from those I love. After enough former enemies become friends, you start to wonder. I couldn't do it anymore. My mind was too cloudy, too divided. So now I just heal. That's not to say I don't see situations in which fighting is necessary. As I said before, I'm married to a fighter, and he is one of the most just and fair, and in fact one of the most merciful people I've ever met. He is a protector of those who can't protect themselves, and I respect that. He has his calling and I have mine... and at least for now, mine is just to heal. That's actually why I had such a strong reaction to the question about the goblins. Something similar happened where I lived, only it was goblins, hobgoblins, and Orcs-- and the conflict was started by a human who, in an effort to recruit their help when the rest of us needed it, made promises he couldn't keep. I think that wanting to attack us was the only thing those three races have ever agreed on. It wasn't an easy thing, and it wasn't entirely peaceful at all times, but we all ended up learning to live side by side out of necessity, since no one was willing to die or leave. Things got smoother and smoother as we all got used to each other. There were quite a few Orcs and goblins at our wedding, actually... as invited guests. Anyway, you didn't ask about that, you asked about my magic and Incarnum. As a Duskling, I'm basically made of magic, so my calling is a pretty natural one. I don't use Incarnum per se-- though others in my family do-- because I have neither the training nor the calling, though I probably have the ability to learn should I choose to do so. Maybe sometime in the future, if I ever have a great deal of free time. *She grins at how unlikely that is.*
Kalai_Eljahn 07-01-07, 12:38 PM	Simul, it was...not quite that simple for me. Any emotion such as 'preferring' someone's presence was an alien, frightening concept. Most emotion is judged to be a corrupting force and I was trained from an early age to control my body's chemicals and my own thoughts. It must not have taken very well, though. "Oh that. You could just not have sex or use spells to prevent yourself from getting pregnant. If anything you use one of those shape shifting spells to give birth to a pureblood allemedusa," Simul said, "Or if he dies you could try to get a druid to use a reincarnate spell and maybe he will become an allemedusa then you could just find some scrolls to allow him to assume his original form." (ooc: Just curious are the allemedusa homebrewed? If not what book are they in?) (ooc: Most definitely homebrew, they wouldn't work in a general world very well. I've devoted quite a bit of research and imagination to their evolution and society.) I would only become pregnant with a halfblood child if I so desired, though it does not work quite as easily the other way. That is why the action is reviled. Incidentally, reincarnation magic works somewhat differently on our world. Jaren's soul, for example, is tied to the goddess Nahara and thus he would be quite unlikely to come back as an allemedusa should Nahara decide an incarnation of his soul would be useful to her. "How does that work are you a reincarnate yuggoloth? The spawn of an evil over god? Did some cult create a ritual to fuse a bunch of souls and sacrificial victims to create a being that was evil born flesh that decided to mate with your father or your mother?" Simul asked, "Just curious." Lichezu's ears flatten in annoyance at Simul's questioning. "Too curious." Jaren decides to take over the mythological aspects. In our world's mythology, there were four gods born from what we call Potential, and they were the ones who shaped our world: Deva, Jaer, Riol, and Tartarus. Though they were not truly gods of "good" and "evil", generally Deva and Jaer are considered Good, while Riol and Tartarus are considered Evil. Jaer and Riol were closer to neutrality than the other two, but it does not really matter. In any case, the goddess Likhazu is considered the daughter of Riol and Tartarus, while her lover Za'en was the son of Deva and Jaer. It is said that the pair fled the world in an effort to forget what had been, and a bit of their souls entered the bloodlines of mortals in every plane that they found-- "And that's me." Lichezu cuts Jaren off. "Though it took a while to realize it, as I was born on Kamigawa, and learned magic from Dominaria."
Thegans 07-01-07, 01:44 PM	*The Duskling seems about to refuse the coins-- the scarf was a gift, and she has no desire to be paid for it-- but then, hearing what their purpose is, she nods and slips them into the pouch at her waist.* Thank you. I'll bring them to my daughters. That will certainly be a great help in protecting them. I will not allow them to be harmed. *A look of determination crosses her face, and for just a moment she looks like the sort of person who might indeed be willing and able to face down an evil god, as she and her friends did years ago. It passes, and she's back to her usual, meeker expression.* I'm grateful for your generous gift, and I'm sure the girls will be too. As for my calling... technically I'm a shaman, with Fire as my patron element. In recent years, however, I've focused solely on healing rather than on combat. I just call myself a healer because that's how I see myself. I've been in a lot of battles, and I've seen a lot of enemies fall... and friends. Not all of our enemies fell, though. Those that didn't became our friends on several occasions. In fact, my husband and I were mortal enemies when we first met, not even because of differing goals and ideologies but because of a grave misunderstanding. I started to feel guilty every time I cast a spell to hurt someone, because I began to think that people generally weren't all that different from those I love. After enough former enemies become friends, you start to wonder. I couldn't do it anymore. My mind was too cloudy, too divided. So now I just heal. That's not to say I don't see situations in which fighting is necessary. As I said before, I'm married to a fighter, and he is one of the most just and fair, and in fact one of the most merciful people I've ever met. He is a protector of those who can't protect themselves, and I respect that. He has his calling and I have mine... and at least for now, mine is just to heal. That's actually why I had such a strong reaction to the question about the goblins. Something similar happened where I lived, only it was goblins, hobgoblins, and Orcs-- and the conflict was started by a human who, in an effort to recruit their help when the rest of us needed it, made promises he couldn't keep. I think that wanting to attack us was the only thing those three races have ever agreed on. It wasn't an easy thing, and it wasn't entirely peaceful at all times, but we all ended up learning to live side by side out of necessity, since no one was willing to die or leave. Things got smoother and smoother as we all got used to each other. There were quite a few Orcs and goblins at our wedding, actually... as invited guests. Anyway, you didn't ask about that, you asked about my magic and Incarnum. As a Duskling, I'm basically made of magic, so my calling is a pretty natural one. I don't use Incarnum per se-- though others in my family do-- because I have neither the training nor the calling, though I probably have the ability to learn should I choose to do so. Maybe sometime in the future, if I ever have a great deal of free time. *She grins at how unlikely that is.* "Your welcome. As for the incarnum comment I would recommend that you try to take some incarnum feats at least. As you said your mostly a healer but I would image that that your healing abilities have a limited range like most spells. If I remember correctly dusklings have an ability that there all born with that allows them to drain incarnum from there essentia pool to move faster, something that would probably come in handy if you need to heal someone and you don't have much time to get in range for the spell to work," Simul said, "Oh and I forgot to mention there is something else you should know about those coins. There designed to stop working, well stop working is not exactly the right term I guess pausing is more accurate, and turn into normal copper pieces if they get stolen. If that happens theres a tiny engraving on the sides written in sylvan. I believe thats a language almost all dusklings know. Anyway the engraving will also dissapear from everyones eyes but those that it was willingly given to. If it gets stolen and you find it again the words engraved are designed to reactivate it." "Oh and you seem to have had better luck with them than we did on my world after the Abdandoned took over that country. The only agreement we could come up with is one group goes one place another goes somewhere else. Apparently the goblins were allergic to humans and orcs, the hobgoblins were allergic to orcs and goblins, the orcs were allergic to humans and hobgoblins. Apparently each of the races have a smell that only those three can pick up and a combination of the two smells is sort of like poison in the air for them," Simul said, "Something tells me that it probably wasn't always like that." "Also the healing and fire thing sort of make sense. If I am correct the creture usually associated with fire is a phoenix and if I remember correctly phoenix are effectively immortal being able to heal themselves from even death," Simul said, "I would assume if a phoenix could heal its self it could probably heal others." [QUOTE=Kalai_Eljahn;12924435]Simul, it was...not quite that simple for me. Any emotion such as 'preferring' someone's presence was an alien, frightening concept. Most emotion is judged to be a corrupting force and I was trained from an early age to control my body's chemicals and my own thoughts. It must not have taken very well, though. "I guess I don't completely understand what the problem is but your reply made it sound like your species is one that is suppouse to use only logic if so there is still the other point. Is he not more useful to you alive then he is dead?" Simul said. (ooc: Most definitely homebrew, they wouldn't work in a general world very well. I've devoted quite a bit of research and imagination to their evolution and society.) (ooc: So far they seem more interesting than most of the published species.) I would only become pregnant with a halfblood child if I so desired, though it does not work quite as easily the other way. That is why the action is reviled. Incidentally, reincarnation magic works somewhat differently on our world. Jaren's soul, for example, is tied to the goddess Nahara and thus he would be quite unlikely to come back as an allemedusa should Nahara decide an incarnation of his soul would be useful to her. 'It sounded like you said that part of the problem was that you wanted to have sex with each other. If that was the problem as I said there are ways arround that even a simple non magical way such as just not mating," Simul said. Lichezu's ears flatten in annoyance at Simul's questioning. "Too curious." Jaren decides to take over the mythological aspects. In our world's mythology, there were four gods born from what we call Potential, and they were the ones who shaped our world: Deva, Jaer, Riol, and Tartarus. Though they were not truly gods of "good" and "evil", generally Deva and Jaer are considered Good, while Riol and Tartarus are considered Evil. Jaer and Riol were closer to neutrality than the other two, but it does not really matter. In any case, the goddess Likhazu is considered the daughter of Riol and Tartarus, while her lover Za'en was the son of Deva and Jaer. It is said that the pair fled the world in an effort to forget what had been, and a bit of their souls entered the bloodlines of mortals in every plane that they found-- "And that's me." Lichezu cuts Jaren off. "Though it took a while to realize it, as I was born on Kamigawa, and learned magic from Dominaria." "I guess that makes sense. Wait a minute Kamigawa isn't that the place where the gods and mortals of that plane decided that they wanted to kill each other?" Simul said.
Zandolit 07-01-07, 08:45 PM	*The Duskling nods.* I am able to use my Essentia to move faster should the need arise. All Dusklings can do that; it's not something we learn. It's not something I often use. My companions prefer a tight formation when possible, so I'm rarely more than a few feet from those I need to heal. I'm also able to do mass heal spells that don't require touch, although in more limited quantities. If I were too far from a party member to attempt a touch spell, I could simply use a mass heal, even if no one else is injured. I try to avoid that as it's a waste of a powerful spell, but it's worth it to save a life, or even to keep someone conscious. It's good to have the Essentia as a backup, though, should the need arise. I do speak Sylvan. Actually, that's what my family primarily spoke when I was growing up. The girls aren't fluent in it, but they know the basics. Thank you again for the coins, and for the additional information about them. I've never seen a phoenix, but I think you're right that they could heal people. I've never really thought about it that way. But I'm afraid I'm proving a distraction from the discussion about (and among) the paladins, so I'll stop prattling on about myself. -Lylessa Uluki
Kalai_Eljahn 07-02-07, 12:06 PM	"I guess I don't completely understand what the problem is but your reply made it sound like your species is one that is suppouse to use only logic if so there is still the other point. Is he not more useful to you alive then he is dead?" Simul said. (ooc: Most definitely homebrew, they wouldn't work in a general world very well. I've devoted quite a bit of research and imagination to their evolution and society.) (ooc: So far they seem more interesting than most of the published species.) (ooc: Thanks, glad to know someone appreciates my work. I can give you quite detailed information if you are interested.) I suppose, especially at this point. You'll notice he's still alive. *She winks mischeviously at Jaren, who laughs somewhat self-consciously.* I simply mentioned the other crime as an aside -- we know how dangerous that would be for Jaren. Besides, I'd make a certain other woman fairly jealous. *Jaren groans and looks resigned.* It is indeed a concern of more than just my life... "I guess that makes sense. Wait a minute Kamigawa isn't that the place where the gods and mortals of that plane decided that they wanted to kill each other?" Simul said. "Yes, before my time."
Thegans 07-02-07, 07:32 PM	(ooc: Thanks, glad to know someone appreciates my work. I can give you quite detailed information if you are interested.) I suppose, especially at this point. You'll notice he's still alive. *She winks mischeviously at Jaren, who laughs somewhat self-consciously.* I simply mentioned the other crime as an aside -- we know how dangerous that would be for Jaren. Besides, I'd make a certain other woman fairly jealous. *Jaren groans and looks resigned.* It is indeed a concern of more than just my life... "Yes, before my time." "Crime is relative anyway. See rules seven. eight and nine (http://www.grimoires.com/InfManifesto/a-manifesto.html)," Simul said, "Well I guess that means the wars over. Did either side win?" Simul sighs when he sees a flash of lightning. "Looks like theres going to be another diety showing up. Oh how I hate him," Simul said. A being with the appearance like an eyrines but with scales on his neck and arms appeares. An overwhelming evil aura radiates from him. "Long time no see. Simul," the being said. "Your a traitor Kulim you betrayed your kind and sided with the gods," Simul said. "You don't seem to have any problem with the other evil god that is here. Oh yes thats because unlike the gods of your world the gods shes descended from actually created the world instead of just taking over," Kulim said, "As the neutral evil god of nature I could easily kill you but I don't because your useless crusade is entertaining." "Now then since I am bored I have some questions. Lets take the kill a baby scenerio but add a few twists. You are told that if you don't kill a baby destined to create a cure for a devestating plauge all your friends and family will be sacrificed to the General of Gehenna. What do you do?" Kulim asked. "Next question. On your worlds there is probably an Underdark like there was on my world. I collapsed the entire Underdark in an attempt to destroy a certain sub species of gnome,unfortunately there were some survivors. Now then as a paladin it is your duty to fight evil while both I and most of the creatures in the Underdark are evil. If you were there before I destroyed my worlds version of the underdark. What would you have done?" Kulim asked. "Finally if you do try to interfer with my plans. Which species of animal would you prefer being fed to?" Kulim asked. "Don't worry I don't plan on killing any of you. At least not right now. This is too... entertaining," Kulim said. (ooc: Your welcome and sure that would be great. P.S. I think you made a small mistake with the colors)
Devil Gnasher 07-04-07, 06:11 PM	"Sir Ian Boydson after you return to this discussion I want to now you opinion on my world's Grab-Schutz or Tomb Guards. They are an organization of dwarven necromancer/paladins under the command of Baron Dedrick Knapp. Their purpose is to defend both the living and the dead of the barony of Eisen-Klippe. They are required to be Devoted Magi as well as either deathslayers or wicthes (geistanrufers in dwarven)."
Stormbrand 07-04-07, 07:53 PM	*Return of the other paladin, who has not given his name.* "The Devil Gnasher has raised an issue which has significance to me. During my regrettably darker past, I gained significant power as a demonologist. Much of my magic deals in the darker arts, and aids me considerably as an Arcane Demonwrecker." "Through those very arts I can banish or imprison fiends, as well as better destroy them, or contain them with the same wards used in a fiendish summoning circle. My skill with those arts aids me in counterspelling and unweaving dark magic, making me well suited to for defeating dark cults." "One of my more memorable techniques is reprogramming the wards of my enemies. Once I did this against an infernalist, so that he was destroyed by his own killing wards. The infernalist had a tainted champion, from whom I took my sword. That sword is an intelligent item created for evil, once the unholy Wrathtalon, but has spent years in willing service to a new and honourable cause." "Instead of demonic allies, I now have pacts with the Enforcers, inevitables. The terms of the pact are that I find them transgressors in exchange for their service, such transgressors are found simply in the course of my paladin duties, and I have sufficient room to use my own discretion that I can see that deserving cases can be spared from the intervention of the Enforcers. Think of it as a mutual interest pact." "Only rarely do I find cause for demon summoning, but a bound and imprisoned demon is a contained threat, and occasionally I have found that a fiend at large and wreaking havoc can be more easily conjured than tracked down. Destruction of the fiend can then be accomplished without risk to innocent life." "Fellow paladins, I ask you of your views on my methods. As I am notably qualified to bind and lock evil away from the world, I am considering training others for the same purpose, to keep many of those evils bound and restrained once I am gone." (and Devoted Magi?)
Devil Gnasher 07-04-07, 08:39 PM	*Return of the other paladin, who has not given his name.* "The Devil Gnasher has raised an issue which has significance to me. During my regrettably darker past, I gained significant power as a demonologist. Much of my magic deals in the darker arts, and aids me considerably as an Arcane Demonwrecker." "Through those very arts I can banish or imprison fiends, as well as better destroy them, or contain them with the same wards used in a fiendish summoning circle. My skill with those arts aids me in counterspelling and unweaving dark magic, making me well suited to for defeating dark cults." "One of my more memorable techniques is reprogramming the wards of my enemies. Once I did this against an infernalist, so that he was destroyed by his own killing wards. The infernalist had a tainted champion, from whom I took my sword. That sword is an intelligent item created for evil, once the unholy Wrathtalon, but has spent years in willing service to a new and honourable cause." "Instead of demonic allies, I now have pacts with the Enforcers, inevitables. The terms of the pact are that I find them transgressors in exchange for their service, such transgressors are found simply in the course of my paladin duties, and I have sufficient room to use my own discretion that I can see that deserving cases can be spared from the intervention of the Enforcers. Think of it as a mutual interest pact." "Only rarely do I find cause for demon summoning, but a bound and imprisoned demon is a contained threat, and occasionally I have found that a fiend at large and wreaking havoc can be more easily conjured than tracked down. Destruction of the fiend can then be accomplished without risk to innocent life." "Fellow paladins, I ask you of your views on my methods. As I am notably qualified to bind and lock evil away from the world, I am considering training others for the same purpose, to keep many of those evils bound and restrained once I am gone." "Hmm, it sounds like you should take a look at an epic ritual called Circle Locking the Nine Gates. True, it only affects Dukes of Hell, Archdevils and the Lords of the Nine but you can develop similar spell aimed against the Demon Lords and Demon Princes. And as long as you teach your students not to appease the fiends they battle and not to sacrifice sentient creatures to summon demons, daemons or devils I have no problem with you passing your skills to the next generation." (and Devoted Magi?) "Devoted Magi are wizard paladins (or similar blessed warriors) who have intergrated their paladinic gifts with their arcane training to such a point that they can freely pursue both and can apply their paladinic training (OOC: paladin levels) to their arcane study. As you can guess I'm a Devoted Magi. Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse." OOC: This is a homebrew feat that I requested modeled off of Devoted Performer. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2620316&postcount=13) is the link.
DX2052 07-11-07, 12:08 PM	Dear Paladin, what is the "just" and "good" path in this situation. A man approaches you and ask you to kill him, naturally you ask why, the man claims he is suffering for a deadly plague, and that he can't feel his fingers, you know that a Paladins ability to remove disease has been frivolous ageist the plague, What do you do?
Stormbrand 07-11-07, 12:34 PM	Dear Paladin, what is the "just" and "good" path in this situation. A man approaches you and ask you to kill him, naturally you ask why, the man claims he is suffering for a deadly plague, and that he can't feel his fingers, you know that a Paladins ability to remove disease has been frivolous ageist the plague, What do you do? *Aorle steps forth* Here, I would say that each paladin is free to use his discretion in such an event. My own choice would be to raise quarantine and investigate further, knowing that any disease which resists the miracle of purified flesh would be no natural ailment, but instead a weapon crafted by dark forces. Why is every plague mentioned before a paladin incurable? The task of a paladin when confronted with plague is to heal the sick as best he can.
Caelic 07-11-07, 12:38 PM	"Fellow paladins, I ask you of your views on my methods. As I am notably qualified to bind and lock evil away from the world, I am considering training others for the same purpose, to keep many of those evils bound and restrained once I am gone." The small, barefoot man in the corner...who has been quietly nursing his second cup of tea...looks up, again with that half-smile of his. "The problem, of course," he says, "is that power can corrupt...and demons and devils are the masters of corruption through the promise of power. Let us suppose that you yourself are incorruptible; you cannot be swayed from your commitment to good." A single finger traces the rim of his teacup as the "sage" speaks. "What of those you train, though? Can you be certain that they will remain incorruptible? Perhaps so; you know them personally. What of the ones they will train, though, when you are dead and gone?" The old man shakes his head. "Therein lies the problem with "permanently confining" a problem, you see. Far, far too often, the confinement is not permanent. That is the advantage that destroying such a creature has over confining it; you know that it will not come back, or sway one of its jailors with honeyed words and promises of power."
Mooncalf 07-31-07, 05:34 PM	(Interesting thread... I haven't read everything, so maybe this has been covered, but aspiring corpsecrafter Sasha Goodwyn has an inquiry.) *A young woman, barely above her mid-teens, walk in, closely followed by a stiff figure in a concealing cloak. Her pale skin, dark hair, and black chainshirt give her a somber and somewhat unsettling look.* "Awfully chatty people here... hm. Ladies. Gentlemen." [curtsies] "During my travels, I've never met holy warriors, these 'Paladins', though I've heard frightening tales, so this would be a good opportunity to ask. Throughout my life, I've had a fascination for the necromantic arts, a burning desire to learn more and more about it. When my parents died to disease and debtors took my home away, I and my brother took to the road. Despite our young age, we've seen much and experienced much, and I've progressed far down the path of discovery. I savor every new knowledge, power and spell, and await the day when I will achieve immortality as an undead being myself. But I get ahead of myself." "I know that a lot of people believe in adhering to ethical and moral rules of good and evil, law and chaos. This has never sat well with me; I think that getting caught up in pursuits like those would distract from my main goals." [pause] "Though obviously I mean no disrespect toward those who do adhere to those ideals." "The only ethical rule I try to adhere to is to not starta violent confrontation. I believe that I can glean good information from passersby and powerful people and beings we encounter. However, if they wish to fight, I will use every resource I deem necessary to defeat them." "For some reason, we do encounter a lot of hostile beings, from simple bandits and animals to... other things. I am adding their bones to my horde whenever I can. My fellow, sentient and free-willed allies tend to suffer injuries in fights, so it makes sense to provide some backup for them. Especially since a foe's corpse will just lie there and rot otherwise. (It *is* just a vessel for the soul, and that part's departed in death.) I have no interest in wasting deadly magic on peasants and the like; persuasion and petty cash usually work if there's anything at all I need from them. An evil necromancer might maybe harrass and harm them, like a cruel child would torment a puppy or step on ants, but I have no interest in such." "During even potentially hostile confrontations, I will usually allow an opponent the benefit of doubt until he's revealed his hostility, because I do not with to be the one to start. Note that I'm not doing this out of some sense of goodness or anything; I'm self-serving, and sometimes discussion can be rewarding." "I'm not gathering power and troops for a defined purpose; I'm doing it out of scientific curiosity and fascination of the arts. The riches we find are useful, though, and the troops do help well in combat. But I'm not a senseless murderer and I will not use anything to harm those who do not seek me harm, unless I absolutely need to. When my powers extend to the ability to create sentient undead, I will endeavour to only animate those who may wish a return to this life. For as far as I'm aware, at least." "That said, if I would happen to encounter one or more paladin, can I hope for a peaceful meeting, or would I risk being attacked on sight?" [pause] "Also, would a paladin's holy abilities persist over into undead status? Hmm." *She steps back, off the proverbial soap box, and awaits a possible answer. She eyes the crowd for hostile reactions, as well.*
Stormbrand 07-31-07, 09:32 PM	(Interesting thread... I haven't read everything, so maybe this has been covered, but aspiring corpsecrafter Sasha Goodwyn has an inquiry.) *A young woman, barely above her mid-teens, walk in, closely followed by a stiff figure in a concealing cloak. Her pale skin, dark hair, and black chainshirt give her a somber and somewhat unsettling look.* "Awfully chatty people here... hm. Ladies. Gentlemen." [curtsies] "During my travels, I've never met holy warriors, these 'Paladins', though I've heard frightening tales, so this would be a good opportunity to ask. Throughout my life, I've had a fascination for the necromantic arts, a burning desire to learn more and more about it. When my parents died to disease and debtors took my home away, I and my brother took to the road. Despite our young age, we've seen much and experienced much, and I've progressed far down the path of discovery. I savor every new knowledge, power and spell, and await the day when I will achieve immortality as an undead being myself. But I get ahead of myself." "I know that a lot of people believe in adhering to ethical and moral rules of good and evil, law and chaos. This has never sat well with me; I think that getting caught up in pursuits like those would distract from my main goals." [pause] "Though obviously I mean no disrespect toward those who do adhere to those ideals." "The only ethical rule I try to adhere to is to not starta violent confrontation. I believe that I can glean good information from passersby and powerful people and beings we encounter. However, if they wish to fight, I will use every resource I deem necessary to defeat them." "For some reason, we do encounter a lot of hostile beings, from simple bandits and animals to... other things. I am adding their bones to my horde whenever I can. My fellow, sentient and free-willed allies tend to suffer injuries in fights, so it makes sense to provide some backup for them. Especially since a foe's corpse will just lie there and rot otherwise. (It *is* just a vessel for the soul, and that part's departed in death.) I have no interest in wasting deadly magic on peasants and the like; persuasion and petty cash usually work if there's anything at all I need from them. An evil necromancer might maybe harrass and harm them, like a cruel child would torment a puppy or step on ants, but I have no interest in such." "During even potentially hostile confrontations, I will usually allow an opponent the benefit of doubt until he's revealed his hostility, because I do not with to be the one to start. Note that I'm not doing this out of some sense of goodness or anything; I'm self-serving, and sometimes discussion can be rewarding." "I'm not gathering power and troops for a defined purpose; I'm doing it out of scientific curiosity and fascination of the arts. The riches we find are useful, though, and the troops do help well in combat. But I'm not a senseless murderer and I will not use anything to harm those who do not seek me harm, unless I absolutely need to. When my powers extend to the ability to create sentient undead, I will endeavour to only animate those who may wish a return to this life. For as far as I'm aware, at least." "That said, if I would happen to encounter one or more paladin, can I hope for a peaceful meeting, or would I risk being attacked on sight?" [pause] "Also, would a paladin's holy abilities persist over into undead status? Hmm." *She steps back, off the proverbial soap box, and awaits a possible answer. She eyes the crowd for hostile reactions, as well.* *Gives a searching glance with amber eyes, then cocks his head as if listening for a sound no others can hear (Detects Evil).* "Greetings, my lady. First of all, let me express my sympathy for your loss. Debtors can be very heartless at times. Were I there to see them force the young from their homes, I would have intervened, I assure you." "Perhaps I should explain my own instinctive objection to your path? Necromancy is a dark road, and the route of immortality through undeath will lead you to wade at least hip-deep in the blood of the innocent. Typically undead rites require atrocities to be effective, or components harvested from tortured and innocent victims - untortured and guilty victims would not do - as well as stolen souls consumed for the power." "As for moral and ethical rules, it is simple. We care when decent people get hurt, or when harm is brought to one who has done nothing to deserve it. We care when people are in need of protection. We care of that more than for our own lives." "Is not starting violent confrontations an ethical rule? Or is it done purely for the sake of valuable information? In which case, if you could gain more knowledge through their torture and death, what would stop you? Besides hopefully me." "With regard to your undead creations, a controlled minion of death is no simple servant, but a vicious, unthinking killer kept on a chain or leash. Perhaps the chain extends too far one day? There are consequences to the presence of undead, one of which is danger to the innocent." "Listen to what you said about being unwilling to harm others, unless you need to. Need to for what? Need to harm them for a mystical secret? Need to harm them to create an undead minion? Need to harm them to fuel your power? The definition of 'needing to' becomes very broad for a necromancer." "Peaceful meetings mostly depend on how you meet. Your undead horde would be the enemy, even if you are not. The path you have chosen leads towards evil, cruelty, and senseless murder... you have simply not gone that far yet. My hope is that you can be convinced to turn away from the evil that awaits you, and that your talent at magic can be put to better use." "When I work miracles, I draw upon compassion and righteousness that an undead would not be capable of."
Comus 07-31-07, 11:24 PM	A necromancer. I don't want to hear your stories, trying to justify your evil through lies and half-truths! Animating the dead is one of the greatest of sins. Know that someday, I or one like me will dance on your grave, and I assure you that you will not be dancing with them. ~ Bludbayn Vaughn Doum, Paladin
Mooncalf 08-01-07, 07:06 AM	*Gives a searching glance with amber eyes, then cocks his head as if listening for a sound no others can hear (Detects Evil).* [No evil is felt from her.] "Greetings, my lady. First of all, let me express my sympathy for your loss. Debtors can be very heartless at times. Were I there to see them force the young from their homes, I would have intervened, I assure you." "Thanks, but no thanks. That place was a lodestone. I was glad to leave home. Growing up as 'the weird girl no one wants to play with' engendered few lasting relationships." "Perhaps I should explain my own instinctive objection to your path? Necromancy is a dark road, and the route of immortality through undeath will lead you to wade at least hip-deep in the blood of the innocent. "Hm. I think maybe I'm up to toe-deep in blood of enemies, but..." [she counts silently] "Five duergar, eleven demons... and four of those big wolves. All of which ignored any attempt to negotiate. Well, I can understand the wolves on that part, but still." Typically undead rites require atrocities to be effective, or components harvested from tortured and innocent victims - untortured and guilty victims would not do - as well as stolen souls consumed for the power." "What?!? What sort of _vile, dark book_ did you glean THAT idea from?! I do not commit such - such perversions! Sick!" [calms down] "Necromancy is the art of manipulating magic and negative energy to produce effects of undeath. Not torturing people. Though you can use it for that, but you don't have to. I think maybe you've got it mixed with demons or something." "As for moral and ethical rules, it is simple. We [I]care when decent people get hurt, or when harm is brought to one who has done nothing to deserve it. We care when people are in need of protection. We care of that more than for our own lives." "Maybe you misunderstood... or borrowed from subconscious preconceptions. I'm not a soulless monster. I do understand the idea of mercy and aid, and if an opportunity to help someone presents itself and it does not go completely against more driving plans, I do take it. It's wrong not to. I just don't build my life around it." "Is not starting violent confrontations an ethical rule? Or is it done purely for the sake of valuable information? In which case, if you could gain more knowledge through their torture and death, what would stop you? Besides hopefully me." "I'm not making veiled threats against you, and I thank you not to do it either. And yes, it's an ethical tenet I'm following. Self-dicipline is vital." "With regard to your undead creations, a controlled minion of death is no simple servant, but a vicious, unthinking killer kept on a chain or leash. Perhaps the chain extends too far one day? There are consequences to the presence of undead, one of which is danger to the innocent." "No, undead are not trained animals. They are under my control. They obey. They do not attack unless attacked by others or ordered to do so. They do not act unless I will it. As for killers... I could just as well order my skeletal horde to storm a burning building and rescue the trapped inhabitants. But that is not a common avenue of thought for many." "Listen to what you said about being unwilling to harm others, unless you need to. Need to for what? Need to harm them for a mystical secret? "Only if I run out of every other avenue to glean the secret, and only very maybe. As I said before, self-dicipline." Need to harm them to create an undead minion? "I find enough... raw material... from hostiles to supply my legion. Besides, I want mighty creatures, not weaklings." Need to harm them to fuel your power? "Now you're grasping at straws. My power is derived from the force of magic and negative energy, not blood. I'm not a vampire. Is this some other idea from that vile book you read? Do you need to nurse a wounded man back to health every day for your powers to work?" The definition of 'needing to' becomes very broad for a necromancer." "As well as for a wizard. Or a fighter. Or a druid. Or a paladin." "Peaceful meetings mostly depend on how you meet. Your undead horde would be the enemy, even if you are not. "I think most people would be dissuaded from attacking someone who's got an undead horde. If not, they're either powerful, in which case they're an useful addition, or stupid, and thus no loss." "Besides, it's not like I bring them with me every time I go shopping or to the bath or such." The path you have chosen leads towards evil, cruelty, and senseless murder.... "Well, it's nice that you recognize free will and choice, sir." [rolls eyes] you have simply not gone that far yet. My hope is that you can be convinced to turn away from the evil that awaits you, and that your talent at magic can be put to better use.". "I intend to put it to good use. Whether it's something you approve of... well, time will tell." "When I work miracles, I draw upon compassion and righteousness that an undead would not be capable of." "You keep on insisting such things. I wonder how well versed you are in the nature of the undead, really. But it's okay. There are other sources of power besides compassion and righteousness." "Oh, and to adress the *other* gentleman..." A necromancer. I don't want to hear your stories, trying to justify your evil through lies and half-truths! Animating the dead is one of the greatest of sins. Know that someday, I or one like me will dance on your grave, and I assure you that you will not be dancing with them. "That's interesting! Very fascinating! If I ever get a grave, I will let you know so you can dance on it. By the way, what church do you belong to that encourage dancing on graves? I'd think it'd count as desecration, but if you're allowed to do it, being a holy warrior and all, it must be okay." [shakes head]
Kalai_Eljahn 08-01-07, 09:19 AM	A friend of mine was born to a tribe which revered undeath as a natural step in the ten-part cycle of life. For that tribe reanimation is as holy as death or birth. While I have fought against corpses guided by an intelligence not their own, it was because the intelligence guiding them was evil, for a corpse itself is merely an empty vessel. My good lady, you sound defensive; you must take into account the fear in which your art is held in most worlds. Death itself frightens, and many identify with their corpses and have no particular desire to become a slave after death, and even if you don't work with their race you are a reminder of those who do. Some believe they need their body intact to reach the afterlife. Others are simply disgusted. There is a good deal of superstition regarding necromancy -- you have no doubt encountered this -- and it is too much to expect paladins to be exempt, when their own experiences run to the contrary of what you are trying to convince them of. *smiles sadly* In truth you remind me most of a friend of mine who is a wizard, and fascinated by the physical world. I hope your interest in the biological does not lead you into harm, nor that you are embittered by the way others receive you. I would advise humility rather than anger as a response to insults thrown your way, for to meet flame with flame does no one good.
Mooncalf 08-01-07, 01:36 PM	"Ooh, a charmer. Quite poetic you are. A tribe that venerate undeath as a natural phenomenon, you say? Interesting... what did they consider to be the step after that?" "No, I'm not angry or anything, I was merely elucidating on a few points where I believed sir... Aorle, was it? Where I believed he made some incorrect assumptions. Particularily confusing me for those who use the Art for perverse reasons, and mistaking my ethics. I would enjoy hearing his rebuttal." "And I'm not angry. I have not threatened anyone, unlike a certain someone." [glances at sir Bludbayn] "This is, after all, a place for peaceful discussion."
Stormbrand 08-01-07, 02:56 PM	"Thanks, but no thanks. That place was a lodestone. I was glad to leave home. Growing up as 'the weird girl no one wants to play with' engendered few lasting relationships." Why did you wait until creditors took the home then? "Hm. I think maybe I'm up to toe-deep in blood of enemies, but..." [she counts silently] "Five duergar, eleven demons... and four of those big wolves. All of which ignored any attempt to negotiate. Well, I can understand the wolves on that part, but still." Good so far. Just be watchful, necromancers who began with benign or even virtuous intentions found themselves pursuing their magic at the cost of innocent lives. After all, murder was a convenient way for them to acquire sufficiently fresh corpses, and many of their creations began as corpses which needed to be killed in a specific manner. "What?!? What sort of _vile, dark book_ did you glean THAT idea from?! I do not commit such - such perversions! Sick!" [calms down] "Necromancy is the art of manipulating magic and negative energy to produce effects of undeath. Not torturing people. Though you can use it for that, but you don't have to. I think maybe you've got it mixed with demons or something." (OOC: this is from things like the MM lists the process of becoming a lich as 'unspeakably evil' - some campaigns go into detail). To answer your question, from a necromancer in the process of lichdom. One component he had acquired for his potion was the heart blood from a newborn babe, which involved involved him cutting out the heart itself. Part of enchanting his phylactery required him to ritually slay a gathering with death magic. "Maybe you misunderstood... or borrowed from subconscious preconceptions. I'm not a soulless monster. I do understand the idea of mercy and aid, and if an opportunity to help someone presents itself and it does not go completely against more driving plans, I do take it. It's wrong not to. I just don't build my life around it." That much is good news. Part of my concern is that I do not wish to see a decent woman corrupted by the practice of dark magic. I believe that you can be saved, and I believe that you are worth saving. "I'm not making veiled threats against you, and I thank you not to do it either. And yes, it's an ethical tenet I'm following. Self-dicipline is vital." No vieled threats, I merely speak truth plainly. At present, you are innocent, and I will aid and protect you should I find you in need. Should you commit the atrocities that many necromancers do, then we shall be enemies. I see nothing unreasonable in that fact. "No, undead are not trained animals. They are under my control. They obey. They do not attack unless attacked by others or ordered to do so. They do not act unless I will it. As for killers... I could just as well order my skeletal horde to storm a burning building and rescue the trapped inhabitants. But that is not a common avenue of thought for many." Undead are not trained animals, trained animals can be nice. The avenue of thought you suggest is uncommon because it goes against the nature of undead. Few necromancers need to command their minions to attack the living, but instead command them to stop destroying life in their area. Most undead prey on the living in the absence of orders. "Only if I run out of every other avenue to glean the secret, and only very maybe. As I said before, self-dicipline." Does that mean that you may or may not spend an innocent life to gain new magic? See what I warn you against? Suppose it gets easier? The choice applies more with necromancy than with anything else. "I find enough... raw material... from hostiles to supply my legion. Besides, I want mighty creatures, not weaklings." Enough 'raw material' for now. And when an innocent being would make suitable 'raw material', then what? Do without the valuable minion, or kill an innocent being? "Now you're grasping at straws. My power is derived from the force of magic and negative energy, not blood. I'm not a vampire. Is this some other idea from that vile book you read? Do you need to nurse a wounded man back to health every day for your powers to work?" Many necromancers, again the ones who I have encountered, drew extra power by stealing the lives from others. Apparently blood, souls and death are used to assist in the manipulation of negative energy. It was for the ones I fought. What I suggest is that you turn your talent to magic somewhere which does not require such dark deeds to reach it's full potential. "As well as for a wizard. Or a fighter. Or a druid. Or a paladin." More so for a necromancer, since a necromancer can more directly gain from the deaths of others. For everyone else, there is the potential to gain from the events surrounding that death. Only a necromancer profits from death itself. "I think most people would be dissuaded from attacking someone who's got an undead horde. If not, they're either powerful, in which case they're an useful addition, or stupid, and thus no loss." "Besides, it's not like I bring them with me every time I go shopping or to the bath or such." Stupidity is to be punished by death? I do take your point however. "Well, it's nice that you recognize free will and choice, sir." [rolls eyes] I recognise too that some choices lead further than we would wish them to. Which is what I have been speaking of. Pursuit of necromancy changes your choices, such as gaining from the deaths of others. "I intend to put it to good use. Whether it's something you approve of... well, time will tell." Please do not blind yourself to the horrors ahead. We may not be able to protect you from them, not if you go there willingly. "You keep on insisting such things. I wonder how well versed you are in the nature of the undead, really. But it's okay. There are other sources of power besides compassion and righteousness." Eager to take offence, aren't we? I do not attack or condemn you, I advise you away from a dangerous path, because I do not wish for the ills of necromancy to befall you. We can protect people from horrors, but not if they embrace them.
Stormbrand 08-01-07, 02:58 PM	I would advise humility rather than anger as a response to insults thrown your way, for to meet flame with flame does no one good. I am not sure where she perceived the insult.
Stormbrand 08-01-07, 03:11 PM	"No, I'm not angry or anything, I was merely elucidating on a few points where I believed sir... Aorle, was it? Where I believed he made some incorrect assumptions. Particularily confusing me for those who use the Art for perverse reasons, and mistaking my ethics. I would enjoy hearing his rebuttal." The 'Art' as you put it favours perverse use. There is only so far that you may progress as a necromancer without perverse use. The risk of your 'art' dragging you into wickedness is what I speak against, not you personally, or your ethics. Yes, that is where Black Necromancy will drag you. Perhaps kicking and screaming, perhaps it will tempt you. Regardless, it is not a place you would wish to be.
Mooncalf 08-01-07, 05:02 PM	[Note: in my previous post, I was a bit rushed at the end, which is why she got a bit snippy. Didn't mean to do that. Heh.] Why did you wait until creditors took the home then? "I 'waited' until my parents died... wait, that makes it sound like I wanted them to die. To be precise, my parents had debts. The debtor (the mayor, actually) believed they could pay them back in time. When they died, he decided I probably couldn't do the same, and foreclosed. We did get some money, as well as horses, out of the deal, but that was because his assistant took pity on us and helped out." "It was all very legal, so I doubt you could have helped anyway, but thanks all the same." Good so far. Just be watchful, necromancers who began with benign or even virtuous intentions found themselves pursuing their magic at the cost of innocent lives. After all, murder was a convenient way for them to acquire sufficiently fresh corpses, and many of their creations began as corpses which needed to be killed in a specific manner. "Duly noted, but I prefer quality over quantity. I'd favor ten mighty warrior-skeletons over a hundred peasant-zombies. And when I meet a foe in combat, I can see just how powerful he or she is. If they're a worthy addition, they join the horde. You'd have to admit there's efficiency that way, making your enemies fight for you." (OOC: this is from things like the MM lists the process of becoming a lich as 'unspeakably evil' - some campaigns go into detail). To answer your question, from a necromancer in the process of lichdom. One component he had acquired for his potion was the heart blood from a newborn babe, which involved involved him cutting out the heart itself. Part of enchanting his phylactery required him to ritually slay a gathering with death magic. "How vile. Still, I have a suspicion that most of that was just gristly window dressing - it should not need all that unless he desired to soundly cement himself in evil. Was he perchance assisted in his research by a demon, or other evil creature? They may have convinced him it was necessary out of their perverse amusement." "I'll look into it. I'd prefer not to waste effort on petty torture." That much is good news. Part of my concern is that I do not wish to see a decent woman corrupted by the practice of dark magic. I believe that you can be saved, and I believe that you are worth saving. "Thank you. I doubt I'll be a beacon of light and hope, but I'll do my best to stay away from the pit, so to speak. Maybe I'll have peace with your kin, then." No vieled threats, I merely speak truth plainly. At present, you are innocent, and I will aid and protect you should I find you in need. Should you commit the atrocities that many necromancers do, then we shall be enemies. I see nothing unreasonable in that fact. "Fair enough, sir. And should you fall by my hand in that possible conflict, I will let your soul pass untouched toward its final reward." Undead are not trained animals, trained animals can be nice. The avenue of thought you suggest is uncommon because it goes against the nature of undead. Few necromancers need to command their minions to attack the living, but instead command them to stop destroying life in their area. Most undead prey on the living in the absence of orders. "My creations do nothing unless I instruct them. They just... stand there. Or lie there, if instructed to burrow. Though in the case of a necromancer with a lot of material and limited ability to control them, it might be clever of him to order a group into an area and relinquish control. Then they'll do whatever they please, which might be perfectly acceptable for him. Maybe he just wants a gaggle of zombies in that room to stop intruders. In that case, it might be a problem if they reach populated areas." Does that mean that you may or may not spend an innocent life to gain new magic? "I am nothing if not a pragmatist. However, I'd like to draw your attention to a paladin-specific question that has been asked in this place a number of times. Namely, the one with the man who has to choose between killing an innocent child or letting a city perish. A or B, both are despicable. And just about everyone chose C, find a way to circumvent the crisis and spare both. Use resources not explicity stated to be absent: allies, wealth, favors, abilities." "So what makes you so certain I'd be inclined to take a life in exchange for power when I've said I maintain the ethic of not harming the innocent unless absolutely necessary?" "Is killing the only way to learn this magic? Do I need to kill him, or merely harm? Would anything non-lethal leave horrible aftereffects? Is there some other way of gaining this magic that relies on other methods? Do I really need this magic so badly?" "So far I've gained many powers without committing atrocities. My touch is deadly to the living, but heals my own wounds. Most weapons do not harm me as much as they should. I can release a burst of negative energy that heal myself and my undead but harm my enemies. Small but significant things like that. Yes, maybe I could gain great things if I sacrifice a village to the infernal lords, but it is not necessary. In time, I will have what I want, and by my own means." See what I warn you against? Suppose it gets easier? The choice applies more with necromancy than with anything else. "That supposes I want it easy. If I wanted an easy life, I would have stayed a peasant. Strength is forged in conflict and adversity." Enough 'raw material' for now. And when an innocent being would make suitable 'raw material', then what? Do without the valuable minion, or kill an innocent being? "Well, mother taught me that I can't have everything." "Joke aside, I prefer to forge allies from adversaries. A person that is not hostile may very well be useful to me, directly or indirectly, particularily if he or she is powerful." "Example: a powerful priest. Yes, if I can preserve her divine abilities and skills somehow, she would make a valuable ally if I killed and animated her. But if her church is benevolent and non-hostile toward me, she is likely still valuable to me, as a source of healing and divine magic, shelter, and possibly an ally against a shared foe. Even if I have no direct use of her, she's providing to the community, which means the community thrives, which makes it a lot more peaceful, which allows me to act with less hassle. It's still good." "As compared to: a hostile knight who wants nothing as much as to stick his sword through my ribs. He wants to harm me, and is of no use to me alive. But he's strong, and may make a good trooper once undead." "Now maybe you see where I'm coming from?" Many necromancers, again the ones who I have encountered, drew extra power by stealing the lives from others. Apparently blood, souls and death are used to assist in the manipulation of negative energy. "Useful trick. If you want to put up with such things. And, more to the point, if you want to become reliant on those things. And before you suggest it, I don't kill things in order to animate their bodies. I animate what I've had to kill anyway. To not animate a fallen foe would mean his body just lies there, decomposing. Instead, I put it to good use." It was for the ones I fought. What I suggest is that you turn your talent to magic somewhere which does not require such dark deeds to reach it's full potential. "Already doing so, thanks for asking. Unless you're implying I should become a bard instead." More so for a necromancer, since a necromancer can more directly gain from the deaths of others. For everyone else, there is the potential to gain from the events surrounding that death. Only a necromancer profits from death itself. "You gain a tremendous advantage in that your opponent isn't trying to kill you anymore. Also, any adventurer knows the benefit of killing a foe: you can claim their possessions and equipment. I simply go one step farther and claim the corpse too." Stupidity is to be punished by death? I do take your point however. "I was being a bit cynical. But stupidity is not a good survival trait, you must agree. Avoiding a visibly superior force is a sound tactical move. I assume that powerful you may be, but even you would not be so foolish as to attack something that is too powerful, unless you had the resources to level the battle field. Getting yourself killed furthers none of your goals." [pause] "Mine, on the other hand..." I recognise too that some choices lead further than we would wish them to. Which is what I have been speaking of. Pursuit of necromancy changes your choices, such as gaining from the deaths of others. "So how do you avoid letting your pursuit of virtue and honor blind you to any transgressions you may unwittingly make?" Please do not blind yourself to the horrors ahead. We may not be able to protect you from them, not if you go there willingly. "Of course not... but if I go willingly, maybe I don't want your protection then? And what I *meant* was, maybe my future plans and yours don't coincide. And maybe that's not automatically a bad thing." Eager to take offence, aren't we? "I'm not. Are you? I meant what I said; I can't really tell whether you're speaking from the confidence of foolhardiness, or if you know things I don't." I do not attack or condemn you, I advise you away from a dangerous path, because I do not wish for the ills of necromancy to befall you. We can protect people from horrors, but not if they embrace them. "And I thank you for your offer, but perhaps you should deal with your own horrors, and let me deal with mine. After all, the burden is mine to bear, and if you take it, you're denying me the strength gained from it."
Kalai_Eljahn 08-02-07, 11:08 AM	"Ooh, a charmer. Quite poetic you are. A tribe that venerate undeath as a natural phenomenon, you say? Interesting... what did they consider to be the step after that?" *He considers for a moment* I'm not...that familiar myself. I believe the cycle's steps are something like: Birth, Growth, Death, Journey, Reanimation, Decay, Rebirth...but that's only seven, I must have something wrong. The history of the goddess Likua might help -- each step happens in ten-year increments. She was born a mortal to this same tribe, denied her heritage as she approached adolesence - starting a new life, was killed when she was 20, wandered in the afterlife for 10 years, was born again as an undead in a body which stopped growing when she was 10, took over the position of the tribe's religious leader, wandered in the physical world across the bloodied plains and became worshipped by her people as a spirit of the dead and undead, and gained in power as belief in her increased until even the followers of other deities began to pay her respect at funerals. So to answer your question, I believe the ultimate goal is transcendence -- to become part of a god. That is my own goal, though I have no particular care for undeath along the way. I am not sure where she perceived the insult. You have not been overgenerous to her craft, you must allow.
Mooncalf 08-02-07, 06:40 PM	[I think I'll introduce another character, as this thread would offer me a very good opportunity to get feedback on a decision I may have to make, and he - the character - is undecided and could use an outsider perspective.] [A darkskinned young man with shaven head and wearing a simple robe carefully steps into the room, and looks around.] "Ah... be greeted, people. I have been informed this is a gathering of people knowledgeable in honor and sense. If I may intrude... pardon, lady, sirs, I do not wish to interrupt your debate. I would however ask for your opinion on a situation I've ended up in. If I may?" "I am Azimuth, of Unther, formerly of the Brotherhood of the Keepers. For centuries, we have kept watch over an ancient artifact, a sword, from a now-fallen civilisation. Apparently, before the fall, their leaders created a number of these artifacts, to safeguard the legacy of their nation, in the hopes that any survivors may in time bring about a rebirth. These artifacts could only be held by one of the bloodline of their people, so as to prevent abuse. The sword was apparently an additional safeguard to prevent the abuse of the artifacts; if wielded against someone carrying another artifact, it may kill instantly. For this terrible reason, we hid it and watched over it, to prevent its power from being abused. No, none of us were of the bloodline, so we could not even move it." "My life changed only a short time ago, when I returned from meditaion in the desert, to find... my brethren... slain... and the artifact taken." [Is silent for a moment] "After completing the burial rites, I directed my mental powers - I am a telepath - toward finding the location of the artifact. I found a trace, but teleporting there did not land me in the enemy's sanctum. It was for the best, as I'm neither equipped to move the sword, nor had I a real plan for dealing with the murderers. My vows prevent me from striking another man to harm, among other things. It does help me focus on other ways to deal with opposition - my telepathic powers are much harder to resist, now." "But I digress. My travel landed me in a distant city, where a chance encounter placed me in contact with a mixed band of people who had previous contact with the robbers and their ilk. Indeed, one of them possessed at least one of the ancient artifacts, though she went through a great deal of effort to keep it hidden. That she was of the bloodline was certain. They were understandably bothered by the idea of this weapon in the hands of someone who could use it, as that one would be likely to want to claim the artifacts she had, and would pose a serious threat." "A description of my new allies may be in order. The main one is the maiden of the bloodline, who is rather reclusive and very much concerned with keeping her artifacts hidden. Employing a magical box that shields from scrying to do so, among other things. She is also, I have been informed, a 'spellfire wielder'; she absorbs any magic and psionics placed upon her as raw energy, and can release this energy in destructive ways. In these instances, she can be ruthless." "The second oddity are the three siblings. They claim to be triplets, yet one has the blood of angels, one, demons, and the third is part dragon. The angel-brother is a compassionate soul who, like me, eschews the material for spiritual purity, and worships a benevolent deity named Ilmater... the name may tell you more than I know. He's a bit neurotic, though, particularily in his refusal to see his sister for what she is. The demon-blood is cold, ruthless and conniving, though she seems, at least outwardly, to put the group's concerns ahead of her own agendas. I hope. Last, the draconic man seems to play the middle ground, though he is reckless, brutal, rude and all too obsessed with weapons. He has, however, taken up the role of the bloodline-woman's protector, in a confrontation taking potentially lethal attacks with no fear. I don't know his agenda." "Finally, the group is joined by a wilderness man, who claims to be mostly interested in studying the strange synergy of the siblings. He is a level-headed person and provides some direction to the group, though he suffers from lychanthropy." "Together, we found out the sword had passed into the hands of a man intending to resurrect the fallen civilisation of the bloodline. We were then approached by an agent demanding we surrender the artifacts to their 'true' owner. Through mental control, we found out their plans, and passed on a message of refusal. Instead, my allies chose a desert ruin to make a determined stand in." "We were soon beset by enemies. Thankfully, I managed to seize control of many of their soldiers and make them flee rather than fight, thus avoiding unneeded bloodshed on both sides. However, the true challenge came with their leader, a prince who wielded the sword and intended to slay the artifact-bearer. The fight was bloody and her protector was nearly slain from taking strikes intended for her, until - after several attempts to penetrate his apparent resistance to psionics - I finally managed to wrest the sword from him by telekinetic force. After that, he was weakened without a weapon, and the group managed to subdue him and take him prisoner." "The issue now at hand is: what do I do now? The artifact is recovered, so I should have it returned to the sanctuary and continue the vigil. But its location is found, and I am only one person. On the other hand, this group of peoples are adept at protecting the artifacts they possess, and has a mamber who can carry the sword if needs be. I would need to form a brotherhood anew, and these peoples might make suitable candidates, maybe. The question is just, can I trust them? Have I taken the sword from one tyrant and handed it to another?" "I am not certain it is wise to leave it to them, but I have no real alternative. They seem like their intentions are pure, but I cannot know for certain unless I study their minds, and that would be rudely invasive. Also, the spellfire prevents me from establishing any mental contact with the bloodline woman anyway." "What would you recommend? Should I attempt to find a new hiding place, away from the hands of the bloodline? Or should I leave it in their hands, hoping they will not abuse my trust?"
Stormbrand 08-03-07, 03:27 PM	"I 'waited' until my parents died... wait, that makes it sound like I wanted them to die. To be precise, my parents had debts. The debtor (the mayor, actually) believed they could pay them back in time. When they died, he decided I probably couldn't do the same, and foreclosed. We did get some money, as well as horses, out of the deal, but that was because his assistant took pity on us and helped out." "It was all very legal, so I doubt you could have helped anyway, but thanks all the same." I salute the assistant, a good man. "Duly noted, but I prefer quality over quantity. I'd favor ten mighty warrior-skeletons over a hundred peasant-zombies. And when I meet a foe in combat, I can see just how powerful he or she is. If they're a worthy addition, they join the horde. You'd have to admit there's efficiency that way, making your enemies fight for you." There is, which alone raises no objections. The principle I can accept, undead simply brings other consequences with them. "How vile. Still, I have a suspicion that most of that was just gristly window dressing - it should not need all that unless he desired to soundly cement himself in evil. Was he perchance assisted in his research by a demon, or other evil creature? They may have convinced him it was necessary out of their perverse amusement." "I'll look into it. I'd prefer not to waste effort on petty torture." The original method may have been passed on from a demon, but the source of his knowledge was the work of other necromancers. Regrettably, evil powers have a very strong hand in necromancy, their influence is over much of it. Finding uncorrupted works may be difficult for you. "Thank you. I doubt I'll be a beacon of light and hope, but I'll do my best to stay away from the pit, so to speak. Maybe I'll have peace with your kin, then." Best of luck to you in that. "Fair enough, sir. And should you fall by my hand in that possible conflict, I will let your soul pass untouched toward its final reward." Awww. How sweet. More seriously, however, for such an event to happen, you would have had to stepped beyond the point of feeling bound by such promises. "My creations do nothing unless I instruct them. They just... stand there. Or lie there, if instructed to burrow. Though in the case of a necromancer with a lot of material and limited ability to control them, it might be clever of him to order a group into an area and relinquish control. Then they'll do whatever they please, which might be perfectly acceptable for him. Maybe he just wants a gaggle of zombies in that room to stop intruders. In that case, it might be a problem if they reach populated areas." Then I suspect your creations are strictly mindless? No ghouls? No shadows? No wraiths or spectres in your horde? Under those conditions, it would be easy for me to tolerate your craft, and even work with you on occasion. Many undead are willingly evil and active of their own accord. These I could never tolerate. These I would be obligated to destroy on principle. "I am nothing if not a pragmatist. However, I'd like to draw your attention to a paladin-specific question that has been asked in this place a number of times. Namely, the one with the man who has to choose between killing an innocent child or letting a city perish. A or B, both are despicable. And just about everyone chose C, find a way to circumvent the crisis and spare both. Use resources not explicity stated to be absent: allies, wealth, favors, abilities." Agreed. I have always hated that suggested dilemma. For one, it assumes that an act of evil could ever be required for such a thing. I would say that the death of the child would be what fuelled the evil. Your point is well-made however. I hope it works for you in practice. "So what makes you so certain I'd be inclined to take a life in exchange for power when I've said I maintain the ethic of not harming the innocent unless absolutely necessary?" "Is killing the only way to learn this magic? Do I need to kill him, or merely harm? Would anything non-lethal leave horrible aftereffects? Is there some other way of gaining this magic that relies on other methods? Do I really need this magic so badly?" Killing is an easier route to necromantic power, which many necromancers may take to gain an advantage over their fellows. Only you said necessary. I cannot perceive the deaths of innocent as ever necessary. "So far I've gained many powers without committing atrocities. My touch is deadly to the living, but heals my own wounds. Most weapons do not harm me as much as they should. I can release a burst of negative energy that heal myself and my undead but harm my enemies. Small but significant things like that. Yes, maybe I could gain great things if I sacrifice a village to the infernal lords, but it is not necessary. In time, I will have what I want, and by my own means." A thanaturge! Interesting. This changes matters somewhat, since you do not take the transformation through standard means. However, be wary that you may be transforming in more ways than you would wish. "That supposes I want it easy. If I wanted an easy life, I would have stayed a peasant. Strength is forged in conflict and adversity." Perhaps. Some people find strength from different places. Necromancers can forge new strength in death, which is what leads them astray or down dark paths. "Well, mother taught me that I can't have everything." "Joke aside, I prefer to forge allies from adversaries. A person that is not hostile may very well be useful to me, directly or indirectly, particularily if he or she is powerful." "Example: a powerful priest. Yes, if I can preserve her divine abilities and skills somehow, she would make a valuable ally if I killed and animated her. But if her church is benevolent and non-hostile toward me, she is likely still valuable to me, as a source of healing and divine magic, shelter, and possibly an ally against a shared foe. Even if I have no direct use of her, she's providing to the community, which means the community thrives, which makes it a lot more peaceful, which allows me to act with less hassle. It's still good." "As compared to: a hostile knight who wants nothing as much as to stick his sword through my ribs. He wants to harm me, and is of no use to me alive. But he's strong, and may make a good trooper once undead." "Now maybe you see where I'm coming from?" I see, and mostly agree. Save for the consequences of more undead in the world. Nearly any thinking undead that you create could easily kill innocent people, and by having created the undead, those slain by it would be your victims. Something we both agree that you would not want. "Useful trick. If you want to put up with such things. And, more to the point, if you want to become reliant on those things. And before you suggest it, I don't kill things in order to animate their bodies. I animate what I've had to kill anyway. To not animate a fallen foe would mean his body just lies there, decomposing. Instead, I put it to good use." The reliance does happen. At first, a necromancer uses it for a one-time boost in power, then finds another task for which he needs greater power. Eventually the lives of others becomes very cheap. Just one peril I have seen to forewarn you of. "Already doing so, thanks for asking. Unless you're implying I should become a bard instead." I am implying that you would be better served by broadening your knowledge of magic so that you will not be trapped or beholden by your Art. "You gain a tremendous advantage in that your opponent isn't trying to kill you anymore. Also, any adventurer knows the benefit of killing a foe: you can claim their possessions and equipment. I simply go one step farther and claim the corpse too." My concern is that necromancy turns death into a resource. Frequently this leads to conflicts of interests, as my goal is to protect the innocent, much the same as I battle against robber gangs who kill to steal. How you currently operate is acceptable to me, depending upon your minions. "So how do you avoid letting your pursuit of virtue and honor blind you to any transgressions you may unwittingly make?" Which transgressions would you suggest? The whole purpose of my pursuit of virtue and honour is to prevent such transgressions. That is why it exists. "Of course not... but if I go willingly, maybe I don't want your protection then? And what I *meant* was, maybe my future plans and yours don't coincide. And maybe that's not automatically a bad thing." Wanting and needing are very different things. I pray it does not cost your soul. "And I thank you for your offer, but perhaps you should deal with your own horrors, and let me deal with mine. After all, the burden is mine to bear, and if you take it, you're denying me the strength gained from it." A burden indeed. Opportunities are better than burdens, my dear.
Mooncalf 08-03-07, 06:34 PM	The original method may have been passed on from a demon, but the source of his knowledge was the work of other necromancers. Regrettably, evil powers have a very strong hand in necromancy, their influence is over much of it. Finding uncorrupted works may be difficult for you. "I'm always on the look for new material... hopefully I'll be able to contribute some enlightening material in turn, which will dispel some of the stigmatic superstition I find has benighted the subject for some time. At least, that's how I feel. I've been made aware how you feel, as well, and I can understand why there are differences in opinion. Well, the future will tell." Awww. How sweet. More seriously, however, for such an event to happen, you would have had to stepped beyond the point of feeling bound by such promises. "Maybe. I can see that happen. I can see that I can avoid it. We'll see." Then I suspect your creations are strictly mindless? No ghouls? No shadows? No wraiths or spectres in your horde? Under those conditions, it would be easy for me to tolerate your craft, and even work with you on occasion. "I've only met two sentient undead so far. One tried to sell me fireworks. That was... rather strange. The other... I would not consider that boy a brutal killer. Heh." "As of the moment, I haven't yet figured out the exact principles of maintaining a mind in the creature. I have... ideas, but I can't muster enough power to make it hold together. I'll figure it out somehow. I'm not certain if the soul needs to be bound, or if merely a mind is required. I hope it's the latter; keeping the soul is unnecessarily cruel if it's unwilling, and may lead to unwanted behavior. Hmm. I think you've given me some ideas." Many undead are willingly evil and active of their own accord. These I could never tolerate. These I would be obligated to destroy on principle. "Any of my creations that disobey in such a manner will be destroyed. I will not have such a thing. Any that require sustenance will be provided such in appropriate manner, but not against my commands. And should a deviant be destroyed by others acting on its crime, I will not protest. I wish to have servants that do my bidding, not run about endangering citizenry without control." Agreed. I have always hated that suggested dilemma. For one, it assumes that an act of evil could ever be required for such a thing. I would say that the death of the child would be what fuelled the evil. "Necessary evil is a contradiction. An evil act may lead to certain benefits, yes, but it is never necessary. If you fail to see alternatives, you're not looking everywhere." "The riddle is merely a trick to trap you in negative rethoric. By providing only two ways out, both being failures, it creates the illusion that there is no success, just differing degrees of failure. Just a stupid lie." Killing is an easier route to necromantic power, which many necromancers may take to gain an advantage over their fellows. "The easy way is the lazy way. Sloth leads to weakness. Adversity leads to strength." Only you said necessary. I cannot perceive the deaths of innocent as ever necessary. "I suspect if you could, you wouldn't be a paladin, yes?" A thanaturge! Interesting. This changes matters somewhat, since you do not take the transformation through standard means. However, be wary that you may be transforming in more ways than you would wish. "I am... developing... step by step. Each step bringing me closer to my goal, but it's a slow, careful process, which may recount for why it has been relatively easy. From what I gather, the blood-drinking mage you mentioned wanted to go through the process in one fell sweep, which might explain the necessity for such... preparations. It's rather like reaching the top of the tower, and the difference between climbing the stairs one step at a time, and making a great leap to the top. The latter is quicker, but much harder, yes?" Perhaps. Some people find strength from different places. Necromancers can forge new strength in death, which is what leads them astray or down dark paths. "We all find strength in our own ways, and we all follow long and winding paths. Did you truly expect to be the one you are today, have done the things you did, when you took your oath for the first time? We'll see who I am when I reach me goal. I might be whom you expect, but maybe not." I see, and mostly agree. Save for the consequences of more undead in the world. Nearly any thinking undead that you create could easily kill innocent people, and by having created the undead, those slain by it would be your victims. Something we both agree that you would not want. "If such a thing happens, I cannot ignore responsibility. And I'll deal with it as needs be. And as mentioned before, I'll have no servants who do not obey. My living allies are free, as I did not create them, but I awaken my undead servants for my purposes, not their own." The reliance does happen. At first, a necromancer uses it for a one-time boost in power, then finds another task for which he needs greater power. Eventually the lives of others becomes very cheap. Just one peril I have seen to forewarn you of. "Addiction comes in many ways, and may snare anyone, of any path. The mage may get addicted to the feeling of his magics reshaping the world. A priestess may become vain over her favored relationship with the divinity in comparison to her simple parishoners. A heroic champion may become enarmored with the cheers and adulations of his heroic deeds, and will put himself and his allies in harm's way in order to commit more heroics to be cheered for." I am implying that you would be better served by broadening your knowledge of magic so that you will not be trapped or beholden by your Art. "Is is rather chafing, actually. My magic is rather limited, and I don't have access to many spells that are not necromantic. I'm particularily peeved that I have no spells to cure living; should my dear brother suffer in battle, there's little I can do unless I have any potions on hand. There are many other spells I can only utilise through items. It's aggravating. Maybe I should branch out." My concern is that necromancy turns death into a resource. Frequently this leads to conflicts of interests, as my goal is to protect the innocent, much the same as I battle against robber gangs who kill to steal. "That annoys me, as it is a pointless waste of lives. If you are a strong criminal, you should be able to take your victim's valuables without having to kill him, because you're strong enough that he is no threat. Taking his life gives you nothing. But then, they don't think in those terms, do they?" "We do not kill for profit. But we kill for our own self-preservation." How you currently operate is acceptable to me, depending upon your minions. "Yes, you're concerned that my minions may slip the leash and cause a tragedy that I'm held responsible for. It's interesting that you appear to have progressed from seeing me as a likely malefactor to seeing me as a misled neophyte who may unwittingly cause a horrible incident. I suppose it is an improvement." "Still, I thank you for your trust. Of course, I might be lying outright to you, and at this moment my hellish horde is scouring the countryside, raping the fields and pillaging the peasants, while I search for more heads to decorate my burning throne with, but if we went around distrusting people like that, we'd never get things done." Which transgressions would you suggest? The whole purpose of my pursuit of virtue and honour is to prevent such transgressions. That is why it exists. "Killing an innocent man because you were certain he was an evil criminal. Leading your squire to his death because you overestimated his ability to handle a situation that was easy for you. Catching a starving thief and handing him over to the corrupt guards because you assumed they were just. Such things." "I don't say you ever did those things, but from what I've been informed, you're just as blessed and empowered as I am. How do you keep it from blinding you to the mundane world around you?" A burden indeed. Opportunities are better than burdens, my dear. "A man who considers his burden an opportunity is either a fool or a genius... or both."
Devil Gnasher 09-30-07, 11:34 PM	"If Count Ian Boydson has the time opportunity to hold any futher discussions I'd like to take part in them." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Realms of Chaos 10-01-07, 10:23 PM	I, as a wandering philosophe, pose a question not on worldly but otherworldly conduct. I discovered, while filing through planar lore, that every foul soul vanquished has their soul transformed into a new fiend, bereft of their former existance (a horrible fate, to be sure). On the other hand, It is all but unheard of for virtuous souls to become anything other than immobile petitioners. Furthermore, though the creation of undead is rampant and destructive, the creation of deathless is far less common. Does it not merely take a speak with dead spell to discover a body's desire to become a deathless? For that matter, even your movements are equaled by those of the blackguard. My question is thus. If the forces of evil are so mounting in numbers, why do not the forces of good increase their numbers in kind?
Stormbrand 10-02-07, 05:04 PM	OOC: Sorry for the delay. "I'm always on the look for new material... hopefully I'll be able to contribute some enlightening material in turn, which will dispel some of the stigmatic superstition I find has benighted the subject for some time. At least, that's how I feel. I've been made aware how you feel, as well, and I can understand why there are differences in opinion. Well, the future will tell." If your work can lead necromancers and necromancy away from the paths of iniquity, that would be a fine outcome. "I've only met two sentient undead so far. One tried to sell me fireworks. That was... rather strange. The other... I would not consider that boy a brutal killer. Heh." "As of the moment, I haven't yet figured out the exact principles of maintaining a mind in the creature. I have... ideas, but I can't muster enough power to make it hold together. I'll figure it out somehow. I'm not certain if the soul needs to be bound, or if merely a mind is required. I hope it's the latter; keeping the soul is unnecessarily cruel if it's unwilling, and may lead to unwanted behavior. Hmm. I think you've given me some ideas." Hmmm. I suspected a novice thanaturge, which is perhaps why your innocence remains intact. My knowledge of willful undead is they thrive upon the essence of death & decay, negative planar energy to some, and that force directs much of their thinking. As an elemental force, death and decay are without moral value, yet behaviour fuelled by such forces leans heavily towards evil. "Any of my creations that disobey in such a manner will be destroyed. I will not have such a thing. Any that require sustenance will be provided such in appropriate manner, but not against my commands. And should a deviant be destroyed by others acting on its crime, I will not protest. I wish to have servants that do my bidding, not run about endangering citizenry without control." One subject I would raise is pre-emptive removal of such a deviant. Frankly, many are right to fear the dead that walk. Undead are things that should not be, our understanding is mostly due to that fact coming secondary to you being an innocent woman. "Necessary evil is a contradiction. An evil act may lead to certain benefits, yes, but it is never necessary. If you fail to see alternatives, you're not looking everywhere." "The riddle is merely a trick to trap you in negative rethoric. By providing only two ways out, both being failures, it creates the illusion that there is no success, just differing degrees of failure. Just a stupid lie." A fine insight, m'lady. I shall remember that. "I suspect if you could, you wouldn't be a paladin, yes?" Certainly not one worth being. "I am... developing... step by step. Each step bringing me closer to my goal, but it's a slow, careful process, which may recount for why it has been relatively easy. From what I gather, the blood-drinking mage you mentioned wanted to go through the process in one fell sweep, which might explain the necessity for such... preparations. It's rather like reaching the top of the tower, and the difference between climbing the stairs one step at a time, and making a great leap to the top. The latter is quicker, but much harder, yes?" Perhaps. You also once said the easy way is the lazy way. So mayhap your route is not easier, but safer. My question is whether your route is to a desirable place to be. "We all find strength in our own ways, and we all follow long and winding paths. Did you truly expect to be the one you are today, have done the things you did, when you took your oath for the first time? We'll see who I am when I reach me goal. I might be whom you expect, but maybe not." With regard to my oath, in purpose and nature, yes, I did expect to be who I am today. Certain specifics still surprised me, I did not expect such fine friends as I have in my life, or to rule an independant kingdom. "If such a thing happens, I cannot ignore responsibility. And I'll deal with it as needs be. And as mentioned before, I'll have no servants who do not obey. My living allies are free, as I did not create them, but I awaken my undead servants for my purposes, not their own." Does responsibility start once harm is done? What of before? Please prepare thorough steps on constraining the creatures before creating them. "Addiction comes in many ways, and may snare anyone, of any path. The mage may get addicted to the feeling of his magics reshaping the world. A priestess may become vain over her favored relationship with the divinity in comparison to her simple parishoners. A heroic champion may become enarmored with the cheers and adulations of his heroic deeds, and will put himself and his allies in harm's way in order to commit more heroics to be cheered for." Fine point. One of my Royal Guard much resembles the heroic champion you suggested, and his desire for personal glory was how I recruited him. Each case seems less dire in consequences than the deathseeker. My point is that necromancers risk more bloody addictions than most others. Be wary of them and best of fortune to you. "Is is rather chafing, actually. My magic is rather limited, and I don't have access to many spells that are not necromantic. I'm particularily peeved that I have no spells to cure living; should my dear brother suffer in battle, there's little I can do unless I have any potions on hand. There are many other spells I can only utilise through items. It's aggravating. Maybe I should branch out." From what I have seen of your heart, you have the strength of spirit to gain the Spark of Heaven. How it would mesh with your practice of necromancy would be interesting, yet I suspect when life thrives in your hands there would be less need for you to pursue the study of death. (OOC: suggesting Favoured Soul... of angels) "That annoys me, as it is a pointless waste of lives. If you are a strong criminal, you should be able to take your victim's valuables without having to kill him, because you're strong enough that he is no threat. Taking his life gives you nothing. But then, they don't think in those terms, do they?" "We do not kill for profit. But we kill for our own self-preservation." Even the so-called strong criminals are my enemies, for their thefts do harm to the undeserving. Anyhow, put bluntly, I see you as a minority among necromancers. A welcome minority, though a minority nontheless. "Yes, you're concerned that my minions may slip the leash and cause a tragedy that I'm held responsible for. It's interesting that you appear to have progressed from seeing me as a likely malefactor to seeing me as a misled neophyte who may unwittingly cause a horrible incident. I suppose it is an improvement." "Still, I thank you for your trust. Of course, I might be lying outright to you, and at this moment my hellish horde is scouring the countryside, raping the fields and pillaging the peasants, while I search for more heads to decorate my burning throne with, but if we went around distrusting people like that, we'd never get things done." Of course, my spies and magi and oracles may be investigating that very possibility. How I see you is as a woman of great potential for both good and ill, I hope your potential leads you to good. "Killing an innocent man because you were certain he was an evil criminal. Leading your squire to his death because you overestimated his ability to handle a situation that was easy for you. Catching a starving thief and handing him over to the corrupt guards because you assumed they were just. Such things." "I don't say you ever did those things, but from what I've been informed, you're just as blessed and empowered as I am. How do you keep it from blinding you to the mundane world around you?" I suspect many of these situations are the reason we are blessed with the gift to detect the presence of evil. As for mistakes, I trust in my advisors and comrades. We all have blind spots, support from fair and just folk serve as a safeguard against mine. "A man who considers his burden an opportunity is either a fool or a genius... or both." Indeed. Perhaps there are ways to knowledge and power which do not involve such burdens.
Stormbrand 10-02-07, 05:33 PM	"If Count Ian Boydson has the time opportunity to hold any futher discussions I'd like to take part in them." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse. Here is a question, friend. As I understand Marshals of Liberty, your cause is freedom, yes? Yet this is a path I do not understand. A paladin often sacrifices freedom upon the altar of duty, obligations accepted in exchange for the gift of meaning. Obligations to righteousness, to women, the innocent and those in need. Many freedoms are rights, yet utter freedom is an illusion masking the tyranny of anarchy, where those with power exploit their freedom to trample the freedoms of others. The worst face of freedom is when obligations became lost and forgotten, or disavowed. Would you explain better to me? As I see no ultimate goal. I, as a wandering philosophe, pose a question not on worldly but otherworldly conduct. I discovered, while filing through planar lore, that every foul soul vanquished has their soul transformed into a new fiend, bereft of their former existance (a horrible fate, to be sure). On the other hand, It is all but unheard of for virtuous souls to become anything other than immobile petitioners. Furthermore, though the creation of undead is rampant and destructive, the creation of deathless is far less common. Does it not merely take a speak with dead spell to discover a body's desire to become a deathless? For that matter, even your movements are equaled by those of the blackguard. My question is thus. If the forces of evil are so mounting in numbers, why do not the forces of good increase their numbers in kind? Speak with Dead shares the memories of a corpse, not the will of the deceased. As for the planar lore, I would call it in error, only a rare wicked soul becomes more than a petitioner. A wicked soul spawning a new fiend is as rare as a worthy soul being the source of a new celestial. More often petitioners are used as fuel by dark magic. Though I make no claims to understand the deathless, the forces of death seem to possess a dark nature, so this is an arena which likely favours malign powers. In short, undead have an easier time of the matter than deathless. Blackguards are mockeries of paladins, that does not mean they equal our movements. Evil corrupts, Good builds. A blackguard is a corrupted mortal of sufficient strength to be a dire threat, a paladin finds his nature and potential far sooner. Fewer evils reach the potential to become a blackguard.
Devil Gnasher 10-02-07, 07:52 PM	"Doesn't freedom entail personal resposiblity? And doesn't true responsiblity require freedom? Both Chaotic Neutrals and Chaotic Goods believe in negative personal responsibility, but only Chaotic Goods, like my self, believe in positive personal responsibility. Negative personal responsibility is the responsibility not to commit rape, torture or murder and not to use force unless it is in response to force (for instance force would include every thing from physical attack to deceit. Since violating negative personal responsibility is a violation of the rights and freedoms of others both sane Chaotic Neutrals and Chaotic Goods would see nothing wrong with the government or individuals punishing such behavior. Positive personal responsibility is the responsibility to actively give aid and comfort to others, as long they do not use your assistance to use unprovoked force against others. While Chaotic Goods strongly believe in positive personal responsibility they also believe that if the government enforced it such good deeds would lose their meaning." "I've also decided to repeat my code so you can understand me better. 1. I am not to follow any unjust, needless or merely stupid law. Unless its purpose is to defend the lives, bodies, sanctity of thought and mind, freedom and or property of others, it's a stupid law. 2. Not to deprive life, liberty, property or pursuit of happiness unless as a punishment for a crime or to prevent one. 3. A crime shall consist of any action that either by intention or negligence causes harm to life, liberty, property or pursuit of happiness, unless it is as a punishment for such a crime. 4. Torture, rape and murder are irredeemably evil acts. As such, it's morally unacceptable to use such "tactics" or "field options" as mentioned above. 5. In addition to combating the forces of darkness and resisting it's lure, I am honor bound to defend those innocent of any crime, liberate the enslaved and oppressed and to perform all good deeds I can when ever the need arises. 6. I am to defend other people from external threats. However I am not required to defend others from themselves. This means that I will not go out of my way to protect those who willingly place themselves into harm's way for sport. This does not mean that I will tolerate any aspect of a code of honor that calls for either the violent death one's lover, centuries of needless war or suicide to avoid shame. Such aspects of a code of honor are at best forged by the most depraved and unenlightened individual and at worst devised by fiends themselves. Most likely devils, who wish to control and dominate others out of a belief of superiority over all Creation. Those who maintain and enforce such abominable codes are just as oppressive and tyrannical." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse. "P.S. What would you have to say about this group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2825784&postcount=1) of travelers"
Cariyaga 10-02-07, 09:25 PM	A white humanoid feline walks up to the (supposed) group, nodding to all in turn. "My name is Saryn Trueheart, Paladin of Ehlonna. This," As he speaks, a large lion steps out from behind him, clad in glistening light blue chain armor. "Is Frieda. My question for those of you who are more experienced than myself, is not so much a question, as having want of your opinions on a group of people who call themselves "Avengers". There are people of all variety among them, even, very few at that, paladins. There are both good and evil, though they are methodical in their ways. (Read: Non-Chaotic) They have an area that they protect from dangers without and within. "There happens to be more information over at the guildhouse," Saryn points to the building out the side of the window. He coughs slightly. ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a )
Mooncalf 10-02-07, 10:40 PM	OOC: Sorry for the delay. OOC: Trust a paladin to keep a lady waiting... ^_^ If your work can lead necromancers and necromancy away from the paths of iniquity, that would be a fine outcome. Doubly so if I can get the holy warriors to put down the fairytale books and see the opposition for the people they actually are. The see-saw swings both ways. Hmmm. I suspected a novice thanaturge, which is perhaps why your innocence remains intact. My knowledge of willful undead is they thrive upon the essence of death & decay, negative planar energy to some, and that force directs much of their thinking. As an elemental force, death and decay are without moral value, yet behaviour fuelled by such forces leans heavily towards evil. As you said, negative energy (which is a fundamental concept in my studies) has no moral value. Thus, a creature bound to existance through it should hold no inherent moral value. A sentient undead should hold no moral values save those it held in life. I'm increasingly inclined to believe that the 'evil' of a common undead stems from the nature of which it was created, in the case of naturally created undead. My books hold a lot of material on the wight, the mohrg and the specter among others, which may be created naturally from individuals who harbour great hatred at the moment of death or somesuch. Obviously the specimen would retain the evil. Through clinical creation of undead, evil desire would not be a driving force and as such would be a presumably lessened factor. I am not certain yet. I shall have to conduct tests. Of course, in that case using hostile opposition for raw material would be a risk when creating sentients, as the specimen would be inclined to have negative feelings for me, its slayer. I can't wait to study the phenomenon. One subject I would raise is pre-emptive removal of such a deviant. I've been over that already. My tool will bend to my will. That which cannot bend, will break. And then reforged. Hmm, that's rather poetic. But yes, I will cow or destroy it if it causes problems. But I will not shed tears if you or another stop it before I have opportunity to. Frankly, many are right to fear the dead that walk. Undead are things that should not be, That is of course your opinion. My opinion, being a necromancer, is that undead are things that may very well be of use. My brother certainly benefits from them. He no longer has to take every enemy's blow. our understanding is mostly due to that fact coming secondary to you being an innocent woman. I don't quite grasp what you mean by that, but I find it distastefully presumptive. Just because I'm not a slavering baby eater does not imply I'm innocent. A fine insight, m'lady. I shall remember that. Just because you have a holy oath to follow does not mean you should let it do all your thinking for you. Perhaps. You also once said the easy way is the lazy way. So mayhap your route is not easier, but safer. I am not foolish. I do not leap into darkness. A man who heralds his transformation into lichdom with a single act of depravity would likely be a monster already. He would not become evil if he already was. My way is a clinical one, observing each step and evaluating it. My question is whether your route is to a desirable place to be. Immortality. An unhampering of the limitations of flesh. Eternity to unravel all sorts of secrets. I find that desirable. As opposed to being a farmer's wife back in that dreary village. With regard to my oath, in purpose and nature, yes, I did expect to be who I am today. Certain specifics still surprised me, I did not expect such fine friends as I have in my life, or to rule an independant kingdom. So you agree with me then. We'll see who I become in time. Does responsibility start once harm is done? What of before? Please prepare thorough steps on constraining the creatures before creating them. I wonder which part of 'They obey my will or will be destroyed' you keep forgetting. Fine point. One of my Royal Guard much resembles the heroic champion you suggested, and his desire for personal glory was how I recruited him. Each case seems less dire in consequences than the deathseeker. Of course it does, to you. The fact that you justify it with 'at least it's not as dire as yours' shows that you missed the actual point I was trying to get across. The hidden taint that seems so innocent is so much more insidious. My point is that necromancers risk more bloody addictions than most others. Then you've learned nothing, because you still view the world though painted church windows. From what I have seen of your heart, you have the strength of spirit to gain the Spark of Heaven. How it would mesh with your practice of necromancy would be interesting, yet I suspect when life thrives in your hands there would be less need for you to pursue the study of death. (OOC: suggesting Favoured Soul... of angels) (OOC: Ew, no. I really don't like that class.) I have no intention of hindering my studies of necromancy, and I will not touch positive energy. It is anathema to me. It burns. I was rather considering a more generalised art, to bolster my spell arsenal with some utility spells. Necromancy is rather limited in practice, sometimes. Also, please don't mess around with my heart again. I keep it tucked away in the cupboard for a good reason. Even the so-called strong criminals are my enemies, for their thefts do harm to the undeserving. Not the point. I was speaking of benefit/loss balance. But never mind. Of course, my spies and magi and oracles may be investigating that very possibility. How I see you is as a woman of great potential for both good and ill, I hope your potential leads you to good. With paladins it's always one or the other, isn't it? Ever thought of the third choice? I suspect many of these situations are the reason we are blessed with the gift to detect the presence of evil. As for mistakes, I trust in my advisors and comrades. We all have blind spots, support from fair and just folk serve as a safeguard against mine. Are you aware that I have among my selection a simple little spell that would make the subject quite untouchable by your 'gift'? A few castings, some old crates, and I could wheel a wagon full of the vilest vampires past your watchful eye. Overconfidence in such a 'gift' risks blinding yourself to the chance of it being deceived. I don't put overmuch faith in my powers, neither should you, yes?
Mooncalf 10-02-07, 11:08 PM	I, as a wandering philosophe, pose a question not on worldly but otherworldly conduct. I discovered, while filing through planar lore, that every foul soul vanquished has their soul transformed into a new fiend, bereft of their former existance (a horrible fate, to be sure). On the other hand, It is all but unheard of for virtuous souls to become anything other than immobile petitioners. Misconceptions on planar theory will be answered by Lady Rainah Meyne, lorekeeper of all things planar from the City of Doors, Sigil. "You, sir, seem to be a victim of exaggeration. Not every departed soul headed into the lower planes spawn a fiend directly. However, there are cases of individuals who sell their souls to fiends, mainly Baatezu, in exchange for the 'honor' of becoming a powerful fiend upon arrival. For an evil individual, this wouldn't be considered such a horrible fate, your opinion to the contrary." "As for others... see, your Material Plane is a crucible of souls. Energy streams from the Inner Planes to give life and essence to the Material, and creatures are born and die. When they die... the souls travel into the Outer Planes. Those who are divine worshippers in good standing usually end up in their Powers' realms, wherever those are, and those who have sold their souls find themselves with their collectors. For those who have no given destination, they end up in the plane that most match their outlook and alignment." "There, they become petitioners, because the souls still retain enough shape to carry on a life, of sorts. But petitioners are not immortal. They are not outsiders, unless a Power, or as you primes call it, a God, transforms them into one. Sooner or later the petitioner dies, and its energies merge with the Plane." "Thus is a plane strengthened. Every good-hearted, law-abiding citizen who dies will empower Arcadia or Mount Celestia. Each reckless mass murderer will add its strength to the Abyss. And that's how the Planes work." Admittedly, in some places of the Material things work differently. A friend said that on his home plane, Oerth or something, if you die without worshipping a god you get bricked into a big wall. Maybe that's what you mentioned. Er... am I the only one to feel that's kinda perverse thing to do to someone, just because you don't want to worship?"
Devil Gnasher 10-03-07, 12:23 AM	"Also, for the benefit of those present, when the term "Lawful Stupid" is used, it refers to the likes of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) "paladin", not Don Quixote." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Stormbrand 10-03-07, 07:40 PM	Doubly so if I can get the holy warriors to put down the fairytale books and see the opposition for the people they actually are. The see-saw swings both ways. Barring spells of deceit, we indeed do see the opposition for the people they actually are. Hence I speak against necromancy and undead rather than against you personally. As you said, negative energy (which is a fundamental concept in my studies) has no moral value. Thus, a creature bound to existance through it should hold no inherent moral value. A sentient undead should hold no moral values save those it held in life. I'm increasingly inclined to believe that the 'evil' of a common undead stems from the nature of which it was created, in the case of naturally created undead. My books hold a lot of material on the wight, the mohrg and the specter among others, which may be created naturally from individuals who harbour great hatred at the moment of death or somesuch. Obviously the specimen would retain the evil. Through clinical creation of undead, evil desire would not be a driving force and as such would be a presumably lessened factor. I am not certain yet. I shall have to conduct tests. Of course, in that case using hostile opposition for raw material would be a risk when creating sentients, as the specimen would be inclined to have negative feelings for me, its slayer. I can't wait to study the phenomenon. A creature of death is driven towards the destruction of life, as beings of life innately oppose death. Many undead are limited creatures, unable to create, the rare exception retaining the capacity from life. Preying upon others is very much the nature of Evil. Preying upon life is the nature of undeath. The link should be obvious. I've been over that already. My tool will bend to my will. That which cannot bend, will break. And then reforged. Hmm, that's rather poetic. But yes, I will cow or destroy it if it causes problems. But I will not shed tears if you or another stop it before I have opportunity to. I referred to before the harm is done. Dealing with the chained killer before it breaks the leash. That is of course your opinion. My opinion, being a necromancer, is that undead are things that may very well be of use. My brother certainly benefits from them. He no longer has to take every enemy's blow. The uses of undead come with a price, how you use them is not at issue. Yet the price is not yours alone to pay, and thus the choice is not your right to make. Protective and summoning magic could shield your brother just as well, without the same peril to others, or even the risk of the minion who slips the leash costing your brother his life. I don't quite grasp what you mean by that, but I find it distastefully presumptive. Just because I'm not a slavering baby eater does not imply I'm innocent. You speak as if innocence is to be regretted. Very strange. Just because you have a holy oath to follow does not mean you should let it do all your thinking for you. Reason serves a holy oath. We use our judgement to best fulfill our vows. Immortality. An unhampering of the limitations of flesh. Eternity to unravel all sorts of secrets. I find that desirable. As opposed to being a farmer's wife back in that dreary village. And this can only be achieved through paths of death and darkness? You spoke of the trap of negative rhetoric, here you fall into the trap of suggesting a choice between necromancy and being a farmer's wife in a dreary village. So you agree with me then. We'll see who I become in time. My prayers are with you. I wonder which part of 'They obey my will or will be destroyed' you keep forgetting. The part where it doesn't work. If they must disobey your will to be destroyed, their act of defiance would likely be a harmful one. Of course it does, to you. The fact that you justify it with 'at least it's not as dire as yours' shows that you missed the actual point I was trying to get across. The hidden taint that seems so innocent is so much more insidious. So why invite further taint needlessly? Then you've learned nothing, because you still view the world though painted church windows. So to learn I must disregard the Teachings of Angels? Must disregard compassion and reason and justice? Is this lesson worth learning? I have no intention of hindering my studies of necromancy, and I will not touch positive energy. It is anathema to me. It burns. I was rather considering a more generalised art, to bolster my spell arsenal with some utility spells. Necromancy is rather limited in practice, sometimes. Also, please don't mess around with my heart again. I keep it tucked away in the cupboard for a good reason. Life & creation is anathema to you? Then you have my deepest pity. Each step towards death and decay limits you further. With paladins it's always one or the other, isn't it? Ever thought of the third choice? Apathy. Less an option for powerful spellcasters, as they may change many lives with their decisions. There is a space between the two, what when your power grows too large to fit in that space? Are you aware that I have among my selection a simple little spell that would make the subject quite untouchable by your 'gift'? A few castings, some old crates, and I could wheel a wagon full of the vilest vampires past your watchful eye. Overconfidence in such a 'gift' risks blinding yourself to the chance of it being deceived. I don't put overmuch faith in my powers, neither should you, yes? Quite aware. Our gift has limits, yet serves a purpose. And you put overmuch faith in your powers to master creatures of death every time you create one with the belief that it will either obey or be destroyed. Consider the risk of subversion by your minions.
Cariyaga 10-04-07, 11:52 PM	OOC: Unless I'm mistaken, no one's answered mah post. Apoligies for my impatience.
Black Kitten 10-05-07, 06:21 AM	A mann sits in a corner, a pipe lit, though he's merely chewing the end. He has been silent for a long while now and has one-by-one grabbed numerous papers from his pack. Sifting through them, he makes a few notes in a small booklet he carries. He has an uncomfortable aura about him, heightened by his black clothes and skin-tone, but all his cloth's appearance is broken by subtle signs of the Shining Hand. "If I may intrude on your bickering?" he calls out to the various gathered, rising from his seat. He is tall, standing (it seems) nearly at 7 feet up. "And if I may not, I'm doing so anyway." After a moment, when he considers the noise has calmed down enough, he puts down his pipe and surveys his surroundings. Then he reaches under the table and grabs a sword, a dark aura surrounding it, the hilt completely black as it's wielder. "Blackwing, Sword of a Thousand Souls" he says. "Or rather... it was. The magic of it's redemption has not yet faded from it. It serves me now as it served me in my days of darkness. It has given up its nature as I have given up mine, so speak lightly about the strictness of someone's nature. My name is Jaheem, by many called 'The Redeemed' and I have studied dark magic for a long time both to my own purposes as to those of my holy master." Jaheem places the tip of the sword on the floor and a soft light starts to illuminate from it's crossguard, enveloping both wielder and weapon. "Many people ask the same question here: can a tool be evil? Or is a tool merely a tool, moralless and without it's own consequences? My studies have lead me to believe that tools CAN be evil, especially concerning negative energy. And therefore wielding it is in itself an act of evil. Just like wielding an evil sword is an evil sword, even though I bend it to my will and summon it only to strike in the name of good." He turns to the table for a moment and takes out a small pack of papers. "I have written extensively on the subject with both the living and the undead to expand my knowledge. I have tried to understand the nature of evil, so I can more effectively fight it," he stops and places the papers on a central chair. "Perhaps it would be worthy to read these letters before you continue," he nods and steps back, taking back his pipe and continuing to chew its end. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11670024&postcount=10
Stormbrand 10-05-07, 12:40 PM	A white humanoid feline walks up to the (supposed) group, nodding to all in turn. "My name is Saryn Trueheart, Paladin of Ehlonna. This," As he speaks, a large lion steps out from behind him, clad in glistening light blue chain armor. "Is Frieda. My question for those of you who are more experienced than myself, is not so much a question, as having want of your opinions on a group of people who call themselves "Avengers". There are people of all variety among them, even, very few at that, paladins. There are both good and evil, though they are methodical in their ways. (Read: Non-Chaotic) They have an area that they protect from dangers without and within. "There happens to be more information over at the guildhouse," Saryn points to the building out the side of the window. He coughs slightly. ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a ) First of all, greetings Sir Trueheart. A pleasure to make your acquaintance. *Sweeping bow from the paladin-king. * Many similar in concept meet with my approval, yet among the methods they train in is specialised treachery. Trust becomes difficult when dealing with a professional traitor. Espionage can be used for good, further resources for my kingdom's information network interest me greatly. A mann sits in a corner, a pipe lit, though he's merely chewing the end. He has been silent for a long while now and has one-by-one grabbed numerous papers from his pack. Sifting through them, he makes a few notes in a small booklet he carries. He has an uncomfortable aura about him, heightened by his black clothes and skin-tone, but all his cloth's appearance is broken by subtle signs of the Shining Hand. "If I may intrude on your bickering?" he calls out to the various gathered, rising from his seat. He is tall, standing (it seems) nearly at 7 feet up. "And if I may not, I'm doing so anyway." After a moment, when he considers the noise has calmed down enough, he puts down his pipe and surveys his surroundings. Then he reaches under the table and grabs a sword, a dark aura surrounding it, the hilt completely black as it's wielder. "Blackwing, Sword of a Thousand Souls" he says. "Or rather... it was. The magic of it's redemption has not yet faded from it. It serves me now as it served me in my days of darkness. It has given up its nature as I have given up mine, so speak lightly about the strictness of someone's nature. My name is Jaheem, by many called 'The Redeemed' and I have studied dark magic for a long time both to my own purposes as to those of my holy master." Jaheem places the tip of the sword on the floor and a soft light starts to illuminate from it's crossguard, enveloping both wielder and weapon. "Many people ask the same question here: can a tool be evil? Or is a tool merely a tool, moralless and without it's own consequences? My studies have lead me to believe that tools CAN be evil, especially concerning negative energy. And therefore wielding it is in itself an act of evil. Just like wielding an evil sword is an evil sword, even though I bend it to my will and summon it only to strike in the name of good." He turns to the table for a moment and takes out a small pack of papers. "I have written extensively on the subject with both the living and the undead to expand my knowledge. I have tried to understand the nature of evil, so I can more effectively fight it," he stops and places the papers on a central chair. "Perhaps it would be worthy to read these letters before you continue," he nods and steps back, taking back his pipe and continuing to chew its end. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11670024&postcount=10 Can a tool be evil? A tool can favour evil. For example, what dark power dwells within your sword is the essence of that which consumes and destroys light and life and beauty. Obviously, this creates dangers. Of course, a sword is meant to be dangerous, but wielding tools of evil with good or neutral intent can easily lead to unintended harm. My concern is that the risk is not yours alone to take.
Cariyaga 10-05-07, 11:35 PM	Also OOC: Heh. Just as I like it. Good old ambiguous gendered Saryn. He's actually a he. Only the DM in the game I'm in with him knows his gender. ^_^
Stormbrand 10-06-07, 05:04 AM	Also OOC: Heh. Just as I like it. Good old ambiguous gendered Saryn. He's actually a he. Only the DM in the game I'm in with him knows his gender. ^_^ (OOC: Oops, edited.)
Cariyaga 10-06-07, 08:40 PM	(OOC: Now you're metagaming. XD!)
Suzaku455 10-07-07, 01:29 AM	I died about 500 years ago I seem to have awaken from my grave after unspeakable evil threaten my homeland 100 years later. Ever since then I never had to breath, eat or sleep and cure spells seems to hurt me while inflict line spells heal my wounds. However this is not my problem I'm being attacked by this paladin calling me an evil creature. Every attempt of convincing him that I'm not evil doesn't work, despite the fact that I can carry the heaven's blade a longsword that no evil being could wield and is the bane of evil creatures and I can enter places where only Lawful Good could enter. I'm trying my best not to harm him but he's getting better and the last fight he managed to land a smite evil attack, but thankfully the attack itself had no effect on me. I was wondering if you could convince him to stop attacking me?
Thegans 10-07-07, 02:08 AM	A creature of death is driven towards the destruction of life, as beings of life innately oppose death. Many undead are limited creatures, unable to create, the rare exception retaining the capacity from life. Preying upon others is very much the nature of Evil. Preying upon life is the nature of undeath. The link should be obvious. The uses of undead come with a price, how you use them is not at issue. Yet the price is not yours alone to pay, and thus the choice is not your right to make. And this can only be achieved through paths of death and darkness? You spoke of the trap of negative rhetoric, here you fall into the trap of suggesting a choice between necromancy and being a farmer's wife in a dreary village. So to learn I must disregard the Teachings of Angels? Must disregard compassion and reason and justice? Is this lesson worth learning? Life & creation is anathema to you? Then you have my deepest pity. Each step towards death and decay limits you further. Apathy. Less an option for powerful spellcasters, as they may change many lives with their decisions. There is a space between the two, what when your power grows too large to fit in that space? Can a tool be evil? A tool can favour evil. For example, what dark power dwells within your sword is the essence of that which consumes and destroys light and life and beauty. Obviously, this creates dangers. Of course, a sword is meant to be dangerous, but wielding tools of evil with good or neutral intent can easily lead to unintended harm. My concern is that the risk is not yours alone to take. A person that appears to be a boy in robes appears. Anyone that remembers him mihgt recognize him as the boy. However despite looking like a normal kid something seems frightening about him. "This thing is still continuing. I stoped paying attention to it, left prepared my world for a war against the far realm, caused a ceasefire for my realities blood war, found a way to ignore centuries of aging, and reclaimed some of the power that the gods stole. Damn it I hope this doesn't count as screwing with time," Simul said. "Anyway I find your assessment of undead flawed. You associate possitive energy with good and negative energy with evil. Are you by any chance aware of the fact that any being that walks into the positive energy plane will be burned to death by the same energy that is used to heal?" Simul said. "Also you talk about compassion, reason, and justice but the world doesn't and cant work that way. As you said beings of life oppose death however that is not correct. They fear death which is necessary. By your logic if a druid awakened a pig and a wolf the wolf would be evil if it ate the pig," Simul said, "Compassion, reason, and justice are useful tools like the rest of morality but like all morality is simply that a tool." "Anyway she is right not everyone cares about that dump little war that the entire multiverse is in. What is it that makes neutrality apathy? As for your sword comment life is a true neutral force and is therefore not opposed to evil. Also if life was and alignement other than true neurtal it would be chaos as chaos originated before law, evil, and good," Simul said. "Here is a hypothetical question paladin. Lets say a Balor had took control of your world and is about to complete a ritual that will allow him to plunge the entire world into the abyss. Now then also assume that this Balor is stronger than a normal Balor and will likely evolve into a demon lord before the ritual is complete. Now then you gain help for the true neutral god Boccob and he offers to give you an artifact from his library. The artifact is a sword that can harm a tannar'ri more than most other weapons. However the sword was forged using metal and other materials from Baator and by Pit Fiends. Would you refuse to use it since it is an evil weapon or would you take the practacle approach and take the tool that will make it easier to get rid of the Balor?" Simul asked.
Stormbrand 10-07-07, 07:39 AM	"Anyway I find your assessment of undead flawed. You associate possitive energy with good and negative energy with evil. Are you by any chance aware of the fact that any being that walks into the positive energy plane will be burned to death by the same energy that is used to heal?" Simul said. Interesting. Many living beings are mostly water yet they can still drown. The association is indirect, but the simple truth is 'positive energy' lends itself more easily to creation and healing while 'negative energy' is more suited to indiscriminate harm and destruction. "Also you talk about compassion, reason, and justice but the world doesn't and cant work that way. As you said beings of life oppose death however that is not correct. They fear death which is necessary. By your logic if a druid awakened a pig and a wolf the wolf would be evil if it ate the pig," Simul said, "Compassion, reason, and justice are useful tools like the rest of morality but like all morality is simply that a tool." Why can the world not work that way? I have seen compassion, reason and justice in action. Any absence of these in the world is a sign they need more support. Remember the scarf given to you by Uluki? Remember your kindness to her in return? If you try, we can make the world work that way. *extends a hand to Simul.* Morality is more than a tool, it is a worthy goal in it's own right. "Anyway she is right not everyone cares about that dump little war that the entire multiverse is in. What is it that makes neutrality apathy? As for your sword comment life is a true neutral force and is therefore not opposed to evil. Also if life was and alignement other than true neurtal it would be chaos as chaos originated before law, evil, and good," Simul said. Notice how I never once spoke of cosmic war. Good & Evil exists in how we live our lives. The kindness I saw towards you, that was Goodness. The kindness from you in return, so was that. Every betrayal and cruelty you have suffered in your life, that was Evil. One with power can change lives for better or worse, one can do either or neither. Choosing to work no influence upon the world at all is apathy. My sword comment does not claim life is opposed to evil, I have seen too much life wrongly lived to believe that. Evil however, is harmful by nature, including to life. That is what I speak of. "Here is a hypothetical question paladin. Lets say a Balor had took control of your world and is about to complete a ritual that will allow him to plunge the entire world into the abyss. Now then also assume that this Balor is stronger than a normal Balor and will likely evolve into a demon lord before the ritual is complete. Now then you gain help for the true neutral god Boccob and he offers to give you an artifact from his library. The artifact is a sword that can harm a tannar'ri more than most other weapons. However the sword was forged using metal and other materials from Baator and by Pit Fiends. Would you refuse to use it since it is an evil weapon or would you take the practacle approach and take the tool that will make it easier to get rid of the Balor?" Simul asked. In all fairness, I do not accept the question. The Heavens would not stand idly by while a balor gains control of the world. Nor would existing demon lords for that matter, as strife is the nature of evil. This hypothetical is an illusion presenting two choices which are both failures in some fashion. A holy artifact would serve just as well, if not better, for this purpose. And would do so without the unseen risks. However, you wish an answer. Given the extreme circumstances you present, taking up the artifact would be a valid option. Continueing an association with the item afterwards would be unwise though. As said though, my choice would be to use the better artifact offered by the Forces of Good.
Stormbrand 10-07-07, 07:46 AM	(OOC: Now you're metagaming. XD!) (OOC: so any response to my answer Mr Trueheart? ... and Saryn did sound a girly name) I died about 500 years ago I seem to have awaken from my grave after unspeakable evil threaten my homeland 100 years later. Ever since then I never had to breath, eat or sleep and cure spells seems to hurt me while inflict line spells heal my wounds. However this is not my problem I'm being attacked by this paladin calling me an evil creature. Every attempt of convincing him that I'm not evil doesn't work, despite the fact that I can carry the heaven's blade a longsword that no evil being could wield and is the bane of evil creatures and I can enter places where only Lawful Good could enter. I'm trying my best not to harm him but he's getting better and the last fight he managed to land a smite evil attack, but thankfully the attack itself had no effect on me. I was wondering if you could convince him to stop attacking me? I would need to know more of you, and of this paladin, and of your battles thusfar. Normally I would say kick his ass, take his weapon from him, and show mercy when it is very obvious that you have won and nothing could stop you from killing him. Speak more of your life, please.
Thegans 10-07-07, 08:07 PM	[QUOTE=Stormbrand;14013807]Interesting. Many living beings are mostly water yet they can still drown. The association is indirect, but the simple truth is 'positive energy' lends itself more easily to creation and healing while 'negative energy' is more suited to indiscriminate harm and destruction. "So is fire does that mean people should stop cooking?" Simul asked. Why can the world not work that way? I have seen compassion, reason and justice in action. Any absence of these in the world is a sign they need more support. Remember the scarf given to you by Uluki? Remember your kindness to her in return? If you try, we can make the world work that way. *extends a hand to Simul.* Morality is more than a tool, it is a worthy goal in it's own right. "Why can't it or why doesn't it? The why can't is because the Rilimian will make sure that neither side wins and the why doesn't it is because of the same thing," Simul said. Simul looks at the paladins hand. "If I remember correctly you said you were a king so just for the record I despise you. Once the Far Realms gate to my world is closed their shall be no more kings or nobility. Here is a small warning. If I find you anywhere on the world in the reality I come from you will be killed," Simul said. Notice how I never once spoke of cosmic war. Good & Evil exists in how we live our lives. The kindness I saw towards you, that was Goodness. The kindness from you in return, so was that. Every betrayal and cruelty you have suffered in your life, that was Evil. One with power can change lives for better or worse, one can do either or neither. Choosing to work no influence upon the world at all is apathy. My sword comment does not claim life is opposed to evil, I have seen too much life wrongly lived to believe that. Evil however, is harmful by nature, including to life. That is what I speak of. "That is what allignment is a dumb cosmic war to keep the Rilimians or whatever their called entertained. Actually its a war thats just starting on most worlds. The main war was between law and chaos. A lot of devils I've seen actually have no idea what a paladin is," Simul said. "Also maybe I spent too much time arround druids but I was simply stating your assesment seemed to be invalid since druids the protectors of nature can be evil," Simul said. In all fairness, I do not accept the question. The Heavens would not stand idly by while a balor gains control of the world. Nor would existing demon lords for that matter, as strife is the nature of evil. This hypothetical is an illusion presenting two choices which are both failures in some fashion. A holy artifact would serve just as well, if not better, for this purpose. And would do so without the unseen risks. However, you wish an answer. Given the extreme circumstances you present, taking up the artifact would be a valid option. Continueing an association with the item afterwards would be unwise though. As said though, my choice would be to use the better artifact offered by the Forces of Good. "If you think those circumstances are extreme the forces of good as you call them didn't help with the war against the creatures invading from the Far Realm until I found an artifcat that could control them inside the dead spirit of a solar that the good gods sent to kill me several times the first being when I was ten because I was apparently destined to cause the destrustion of most of the gods of my reality," Simul said. "So would whatever is incharge of the world you come from be intrested in trading heavens? Because if what you said is true your world's heavens are at least half way competent," Simul said.
Stormbrand 10-08-07, 02:17 PM	"Why can't it or why doesn't it? The why can't is because the Rilimian will make sure that neither side wins and the why doesn't it is because of the same thing," Simul said. Simul looks at the paladins hand. "If I remember correctly you said you were a king so just for the record I despise you. Once the Far Realms gate to my world is closed their shall be no more kings or nobility. Here is a small warning. If I find you anywhere on the world in the reality I come from you will be killed," Simul said. "That is what allignment is a dumb cosmic war to keep the Rilimians or whatever their called entertained. Actually its a war thats just starting on most worlds. The main war was between law and chaos. A lot of devils I've seen actually have no idea what a paladin is," Simul said. "Also maybe I spent too much time arround druids but I was simply stating your assesment seemed to be invalid since druids the protectors of nature can be evil," Simul said. "If you think those circumstances are extreme the forces of good as you call them didn't help with the war against the creatures invading from the Far Realm until I found an artifcat that could control them inside the dead spirit of a solar that the good gods sent to kill me several times the first being when I was ten because I was apparently destined to cause the destrustion of most of the gods of my reality," Simul said. "So would whatever is incharge of the world you come from be intrested in trading heavens? Because if what you said is true your world's heavens are at least half way competent," Simul said. Rilimians? Garbage. That is merely an excuse to hide from personal responsibility for choices made. It is purposely blinding oneself to the true horror of one's deeds. Your hatred is duly noted, as is your warning. On that subject, best you understand now that I do not fear you or such a battle. Now I ask, why do you hate kings & nobility so much aside from false ravings? What I said is true, the Heavens function very well. Places upon the mortal plane under the influence of the Heavens are Edens, paradises of freedom and justice in the world. We work towards expanding their influence. For your information, how I became king began with building a stronghold around an oasis in the desert, which then took in refugees rescued from lives much like what the Abandoned suffered. I was crowned king to oversee the defence of their rights, justice in action and the fair distribution of resources for the good of all. That land is now an Eden. "So is fire does that mean people should stop cooking?" Simul asked. They should not cook meals using fireball spells, or alchemists fire, or high-explosives.
Suzaku455 10-08-07, 02:28 PM	I would need to know more of you, and of this paladin, and of your battles thusfar. Normally I would say kick his ass, take his weapon from him, and show mercy when it is very obvious that you have won and nothing could stop you from killing him. Speak more of your life, please. I vowed to protect my homeland even in death, and I guess the gods heard me because I awakened when a great evil threaten my land. After protecting my land from various evil the paladin arrived and attacked without so much as detect evil. I defeated him several times and after wards I would heal him and ask him to leave me alone because I'm not evil. However the paladin refuses to believe me claiming that all undead are evil.
Stormbrand 10-08-07, 03:10 PM	I vowed to protect my homeland even in death, and I guess the gods heard me because I awakened when a great evil threaten my land. After protecting my land from various evil the paladin arrived and attacked without so much as detect evil. I defeated him several times and after wards I would heal him and ask him to leave me alone because I'm not evil. However the paladin refuses to believe me claiming that all undead are evil. Respectfully, that tells me nothing new. Give me some information I can use. Perhaps you need to involve outside help, allies to vouch for you, those who you have protected to hold him prisoner. Do you know his god or church? Do you have any allies within that church who can assign him penance for his repeated attacks or otherwise restrain him with their authority? Simple defeat-and-release will never bring a permanent solution, as he has proven willing to ignore even the act of mercy. All you do is enable him to strike with impunity. Can you not force an oath from him in exchange for his life? No wilful Oathbreaker could ever be a paladin. Demand he detect evil? Actually do something is my advice, rather than waiting for your attacker to cease of his own free will. (OOC: Are you obviously undead? Rotting? Skeletal? Mummified?)
Thegans 10-08-07, 05:43 PM	Rilimians? Garbage. That is merely an excuse to hide from personal responsibility for choices made. It is purposely blinding oneself to the true horror of one's deeds. "I am merely stating that you rely on morality too much. No matter what is done concerning good and evil nothing will ever change. Therefore the only use of morality is as a tool to use as you see fit. I don't just mean good I mean all types of morality," Simul said. Your hatred is duly noted, as is your warning. On that subject, best you understand now that I do not fear you or such a battle. Now I ask, why do you hate kings & nobility so much aside from false ravings? "A bunch of lazy bastards that rule because a bunch of divine bastards told them they could. In my world most of the gods are basically parasites that stole their power from the world original creatores during which a hole in the universe was made allowing access to the Far Realm. I don't plan on leaving any trace of those gods on the prime expectially not people they put in charge," Simul said, "If you need proof that their responsible from the Far Realm invasions I have records of the events in draconic that date back to before Io of my reality one of the last of the original creators created the dragons to replace his lost kin." What I said is true, the Heavens function very well. Places upon the mortal plane under the influence of the Heavens are Edens, paradises of freedom and justice in the world. We work towards expanding their influence. "Thats odd some of the other worlds in the prime of my reality have places like that but thier controled by sladdi. I've come to the conclusion that your world is as wierd as the color of your sky and the color of its grass," Simul said. For your information, how I became king began with building a stronghold around an oasis in the desert, which then took in refugees rescued from lives much like what the Abandoned suffered. I was crowned king to oversee the defence of their rights, justice in action and the fair distribution of resources for the good of all. That land is now an Eden. "How long do you really expect that to last? Another twenty years at most or do you expect things to stay like that. Monarchy has too many flaws," Simul said They should not cook meals using fireball spells, or alchemists fire, or high-explosives. "Did you expect me not to use the fire analogy after you used water? Still your observation about them is correct in how the energies behave. Still how does that make it evil? Negative energy hurts a yuggoloth as much as it would anything else and postive energy heals a yuggoloth as much as it would anytihng else," Simul said. "Come to think of it I feel like mentioning a theory. Their is this place called the Bastion of Souls in a lot of realities. One of the few safe spots on the positive energy plane. In this area souls grow on crystal trees. Now then the majority of souls after death are turned into outsiders while the rest go back to a ressurected or are absorbed by the plane," Simul said, "If positive energy is what souls come from then wouldn't it make sense to say that negative energy is there whats left over from the transformation goes to?" "Lets take lichdom for example. A dreadnecromancer does not need to be evil and will still become a lich once they gain enough power. There are even the archliches and baelnorn," Simul said. "Liches have usually three reasons to take on lichdom a hunger for power, causing beings from the plane that they will end up on to hold a grudge against them, or knowledge," Simul said, "The first lends its self more easily to evil but the second and third don't." "Before I continue let me just say this. There is no such think as salvation or damnation. Assuming the lich was evil by the time it would have the power necessary to gain lichdom it already insured that its afterlife is relatively well off unless the fiends had a reason to hold a grudge against it. If they are trying to stay arround to continue spreading evil all it takes it an evil miracle to bring them back in a younger from to continue the work. Something that would work better then lichdom," Simul said. "Now then thier are the demiliches while they do have the ability to destroy souls so do mortal that fight outsiders or elementals. It has never happened yet but what if their is a stage after demilichdom a kind of outsider transformation similar to that a monk of great skill can go through. While all souls become outsiders almost none but those that ascend with out going to the afterlife keep their selves. In essence a lich and by extention a demilich is basically like an awakened tree that decides it would rather find a way to turn into a treant then become lumber," Simul said.
Traevanon 10-09-07, 08:14 AM	"Liches have usually three reasons to take on lichdom a hunger for power, causing beings from the plane that they will end up on to hold a grudge against them, or knowledge," Simul said, "The first lends its self more easily to evil but the second and third don't." I hear that fear of death is also a common reason for striving for lichdom. Ressurection is not always so available and natural aging is not so easily reversed in some realities as it apparently is in yours. If the fear of natural death (or one of the other chosen reasons) is great enough in a person that they would consider defiling themselves and performing great acts of great evil to thwart it, the individual would certainly consider continued and even more descpicable evils to prevent unnatural death after lichdom. So the question then is, what needs to be done to gain lichdom in your reality? In mine the act falls squarely on the evil side.
Knights_Disciple 10-09-07, 11:36 AM	*A man (human) steps foward, taking a seat in the circle of paladins. He is tall, but not exceedingly so. His full plate shines with hidden power, and his sword faintly glows. The paladin himself, while perhaps in his 30's, exudes power and experience. His eyes, while seemingly full of wisdom, are yet somewhat aged more than his body seems. He acts as if he has hidden scars, from many sources.* (OOC: This guy's my first character, a Paladin/Shining Blade of Heironeous. Our DM got us epic within a couple years of starting in game time, as it was only a year-long campaign. I'm putting him a couple years, and levels, beyond where he was at the end of the campaign.) I've been listening for a bit now, and truly find this discussion fascinating. It heartens me to see my brethern in this higher calling ranging all walks and races, from nimble halflings, to mighty noblemen. I've certainly seen my share of great men, and terrible men. I'd like to put forth a couple of ideas, generally in response to the seemingly crazy child over there (Simul). First, you talk of morality like it's an optional code. I view it more as the almost subconscious guide on our actions. You can have good morality or bad morality, low morality or high morality. It both defines us, and is defined by us. (OOC: Or something like that. It felt more eloquent when I thought of it.) Second, your attitude towards the good deities seems to be that they should interfere as much of the forces of the abyss in our mortal lives. I think that they don't on purpose; not out of spite, or fear, or anything like that, but for our benefit. Think about it. If Pelor stopped every hurricane, every drought, wouldn't the world be less orderly? Really, there'd be no such thing as natural processes. And, if they could interfere more, their evil counterparts could as well. The mortal realm would become a battleground for the gods, leaving mortals as mere casualties. Plus, think of how much more potential for growth there is for us, if we have to actually face challenges, instead of having everything done for us. The lords of the Abyss likely don't have the same cares, as I doubt they "care" about anything but power and destruction. Finally, I would postulate this: those that seek freedom, would do better to turn to Good, than to Evil. While Evil may promise more immediate "freedom", especially in supposedly taking away "useless morals", once they have you, they seem to never want to let their talons out of you. From the lowest lemures and imps, to the archdemons and devils, all the way up to the likes of Hextor, they want you to stay on their side, and will take control of you to keep it that way. Good does no such thing. While you may feel the stirrings of conscience and guilt, they never stop you from making a choice. They may send someone to stop your actions if they harm another, but the choice is left to you. Good doesn't control you to stop you from going over; instead, it gives you the choice, and mourns when you choose the darkness. Good knows that true goodness can only be achieved in the fullness of free will. *Edit: I'm adding bits as I can; being at a job means I can't devote full attention to writing for this.*
Thegans 10-09-07, 03:45 PM	I hear that fear of death is also a common reason for striving for lichdom. Ressurection is not always so available and natural aging is not so easily reversed in some realities as it apparently is in yours. If the fear of natural death (or one of the other chosen reasons) is great enough in a person that they would consider defiling themselves and performing great acts of great evil to thwart it, the individual would certainly consider continued and even more descpicable evils to prevent unnatural death after lichdom. So the question then is, what needs to be done to gain lichdom in your reality? In mine the act falls squarely on the evil side. "Truth be told in my reality the art of lichdom hasn't been perfected yet. About ninety percent of people that try becoming liches fail the process the majority of which somehow become elans. Still lichdom isn't evil its just stupid by the time you can become a lich your already able to travel freely throught the planes," Simul said, "Really if they were afraid of dying their are easier ways to not get killed such as creating an Astral Seed." *A man (human) steps foward, taking a seat in the circle of paladins. He is tall, but not exceedingly so. His full plate shines with hidden power, and his sword faintly glows. The paladin himself, while perhaps in his 30's, exudes power and experience. His eyes, while seemingly full of wisdom, are yet somewhat aged more than his body seems. He acts as if he has hidden scars, from many sources.* (OOC: This guy's my first character, a Paladin/Shining Blade of Heironeous. Our DM got us epic within a couple years of starting in game time, as it was only a year-long campaign. I'm putting him a couple years, and levels, beyond where he was at the end of the campaign.) I've been listening for a bit now, and truly find this discussion fascinating. It heartens me to see my brethern in this higher calling ranging all walks and races, from nimble halflings, to mighty noblemen. I've certainly seen my share of great men, and terrible men. I'd like to put forth a couple of ideas, generally in response to the seemingly crazy child over there (Simul). First, you talk of morality like it's an optional code. I view it more as the almost subconscious guide on our actions. You can have good morality or bad morality, low morality or high morality. It both defines us, and is defined by us. (OOC: Or something like that. It felt more eloquent when I thought of it.) Second, your attitude towards the good deities seems to be that they should interfere as much of the forces of the abyss in our mortal lives. I think that they don't on purpose; not out of spite, or fear, or anything like that, but for our benefit. Think about it. If Pelor stopped every hurricane, every drought, wouldn't the world be less orderly? Really, there'd be no such thing as natural processes. And, if they could interfere more, their evil counterparts could as well. The mortal realm would become a battleground for the gods, leaving mortals as mere casualties. Plus, think of how much more potential for growth there is for us, if we have to actually face challenges, instead of having everything done for us. The lords of the Abyss likely don't have the same cares, as I doubt they "care" about anything but power and destruction. Finally, I would postulate this: those that seek freedom, would do better to turn to Good, than to Evil. While Evil may promise more immediate "freedom", especially in supposedly taking away "useless morals", once they have you, they seem to never want to let their talons out of you. From the lowest lemures and imps, to the archdemons and devils, all the way up to the likes of Hextor, they want you to stay on their side, and will take control of you to keep it that way. Good does no such thing. While you may feel the stirrings of conscience and guilt, they never stop you from making a choice. They may send someone to stop your actions if they harm another, but the choice is left to you. Good doesn't control you to stop you from going over; instead, it gives you the choice, and mourns when you choose the darkness. Good knows that true goodness can only be achieved in the fullness of free will. *Edit: I'm adding bits as I can; being at a job means I can't devote full attention to writing for this.* "You know the phrase optional code seems a lot more optomistic then the way I treat morality. Second I don't think the good dieties should interfere maybe the good outsiders but not the good dieties, I think the dieties should die good, evil, chaotic, lawful the gods are a bunch of parasites really the only reason they have any power is because a bunch of brainwashed people think they do. Third why would a sun diety be intereacting with something wind related like a hurricane. Even with a water diety your streatching it. Finally freedom is just as harmed by good as it is by evil. Their is more then law and chaos and good and evil," Simul said, "However evil at least shows results." "I assume your familiar with the spell called holy word the good counterpart of the word blasphamey. Holy word is conisdered a good spell meaning its casing is a good act. Or as a druid I once met said "Holy Word all the animal companions I had to replace and all the damage it does. Next time I see someone casting Holy Word I'm feeding them to an owlbear. At least with balsphamey they have the common decency to use it somewhere else." The druid really did have a good point the majority of people are not good or evil but rather neutral and holy word kills everything that isn't good. Although I have to admit if you were stranded it would probably make hunting easier well if whatever died is still edible after it dies from it," Simul said.
Knights_Disciple 10-09-07, 04:33 PM	" "You know the phrase optional code seems a lot more optomistic then the way I treat morality. Second I don't think the good dieties should interfere maybe the good outsiders but not the good dieties, I think the dieties should die good, evil, chaotic, lawful the gods are a bunch of parasites realkly the only reason they have any power is because a bunch of brainwashed people think they do." *Sad look on his face* If that is what you think, I truly pity you. That, or the deities in your world are pale imitations of the ones everywhere else. "Third why would a sun diety be intereacting with something wind related like a hurricane. Even with a water diety your streatching it." I picked Pelor because he is often known for compassion. Besides, why should deities be so limited? You seem to be focusing on trivial items, and ignoring the points that matter. Finally freedom is just as harmed by good as it is by evil. Their is more then law and chaos and good and evil," Simul said, "However evil at least shows results." If by "results", you mean the spreading of fear, pain, and death, sure. Otherwise, I would disagree. I've faced much evil in my life, from dragons, to pit fiends, to infernals, to aspects of Gruumsh and Hextor (OOC: ok, the last one didn't happen in the campaign, but it's fun to throw in there, and I'm sure something like that would have happened with a bit more time.) Again, I think Good gives us the freedom to choose, as well as the freedom from guilt, and the freedom of love and compassion. "I assume your familiar with the spell called holy word the good counterpart of the word blasphamey. Holy word is conisdered a good spell meaning its casing is a good act. Or as a druid I once met said "Holy Word all the animal companions I had to replace and all the damage it does. Next time I see someone casting Holy Word I'm feeding them to an owlbear. At least with balsphamey they have the common decency to use it somewhere else." The druid really did have a good point the majority of people are not good or evil but rather neutral and holy word kills everything that isn't good. Although I have to admit if you were stranded it would probably make hunting easier well if whatever died is still edible after it dies from it," Simul said. I'm not sure where you're going with this. After all, many spells harm creatures regardless of alignment. A fireball will burn indiscriminately; a word of power can kill any creature that's weak enough (Power Word Kill). I would hope a Good caster is using this spell only in the fight against evil, and only where it would do the least harm. If I may put something forward, little insane one. You say you care not for law or chaos, good or evil. Yet your stated goals are the killing of all the gods, all the nobility, and the subsequent ruling of everything with your band of orphans. Killing all the gods, a goal that you don't know the consequences of to existence itself, seems pretty chaotic and evil to me. Obviously, there could be some Lawful and Good bias seeping in here, but still. As for nobility? When some of them, a fair number of them I'd wager, are good people doing a good job? You talk about species having spreads of all alignments, but seem to dismiss nobles as all evil, even if they don't "register" as so. Again, notably chaotic and evil. And wanting to rule the world with your allies after killing all the other rulers? Maybe not chaotic, perhaps even lawful, but still somewhat evil. Of course, conviently, you don't care about alignment. Your reasoning strikes me as rather baseless, and rather insane. You do truly have my sympathy, both for the hard times that drive you to these plans, and the obvious insanity that has resulted from your trials, and likely your time spent in the Abyss in the presence of such evils.
Cariyaga 10-09-07, 06:34 PM	Saryn replies to the paladin-king in earnest, "There are as many orders of these Avengers as there are of paladins. Unlike paladins, however, some may not be of such true heart." At that he smiles. "However, there are several orders dedicated to the cause of good for the land they're home to, and I would be surprised if there wasn't a guild of avengers in your land. Many are unknown even to their rulers. As far as honesty goes, they are just as varied in their actions as the common man is." (OOC: On his name, it isn't pronounced how it looks. It's pronounced Shryn, with a soft H.)
Brendal 10-09-07, 08:26 PM	Hallo there Count Ian Boydson, King Donen Barglave of the Dwarven clan Barglave, wishes to ask of you two things. I have fought with my God's blessings and defended my clan as best I could for a while now, but I fear I have more ahead of me and I would not know how to face it. To be the best Paladin I could be, by your opinion, what rank should I further prestige my skills in to make a me not only able to use my healing capabilities well but to be able to defend well. I have lives to watch out on, and another experienced warrior of the gods opinion could prove helpful. Also what else should i do to train up my Lay on Hands ability to make it very effective. In the ways that even my god would be impressed by?
Thegans 10-09-07, 08:55 PM	[QUOTE=Knights_Disciple;14037482]*Sad look on his face* If that is what you think, I truly pity you. That, or the deities in your world are pale imitations of the ones everywhere else. I picked Pelor because he is often known for compassion. Besides, why should deities be so limited? You seem to be focusing on trivial items, and ignoring the points that matter. "Compassion leads to overpopulation, overpopulation leads to a lack of food, a lack of food leads to everyone dieing a horrible death from starvation," Simul said. If by "results", you mean the spreading of fear, pain, and death, sure. Otherwise, I would disagree. I've faced much evil in my life, from dragons, to pit fiends, to infernals, to aspects of Gruumsh and Hextor (OOC: ok, the last one didn't happen in the campaign, but it's fun to throw in there, and I'm sure something like that would have happened with a bit more time.) Again, I think Good gives us the freedom to choose, as well as the freedom from guilt, and the freedom of love and compassion. "Since I'm bored heres one of the creatures I've been studying from the hole leading from the far realm to my reality. If you could cast detect good on it you would notice something odd," Simul said. Simul opens up a bag of holding and opens it up. A creature that looks like a perfect fusion of an elf and an archon pops out as Simul levitates out of the way. The first thing it sees is the paladin and it charges at it drawing two swords from its flesh. An aura of good radiates from it. As it charges to attack it utters something."I will destroy your shell and remove your spirit from this ghostly plane." "Good luck," Simul said. I'm not sure where you're going with this. After all, many spells harm creatures regardless of alignment. A fireball will burn indiscriminately; a word of power can kill any creature that's weak enough (Power Word Kill). I would hope a Good caster is using this spell only in the fight against evil, and only where it would do the least harm. "I'm saying when you get down to the basics all of the alignments use the exact same tools for the exact same thing," Simul said. If I may put something forward, little insane one. You say you care not for law or chaos, good or evil. Yet your stated goals are the killing of all the gods, all the nobility, and the subsequent ruling of everything with your band of orphans. Killing all the gods, a goal that you don't know the consequences of to existence itself, seems pretty chaotic and evil to me. Obviously, there could be some Lawful and Good bias seeping in here, but still. As for nobility? When some of them, a fair number of them I'd wager, are good people doing a good job? You talk about species having spreads of all alignments, but seem to dismiss nobles as all evil, even if they don't "register" as so. Again, notably chaotic and evil. And wanting to rule the world with your allies after killing all the other rulers? Maybe not chaotic, perhaps even lawful, but still somewhat evil. Of course, conviently, you don't care about alignment. Your reasoning strikes me as rather baseless, and rather insane. You do truly have my sympathy, both for the hard times that drive you to these plans, and the obvious insanity that has resulted from your trials, and likely your time spent in the Abyss in the presence of such evils. "I doubt existence needs the gods if someone wants to pray to something they have the elemental lords and stuff like that. Never talk to my realities Archonomental of water he actually took over my realities Baator, Geheena, and Hades," Simul said. "Besides realities ending soon anyway didn't you hear about the tear in the multiverse. I heard guardinals are going extincts along with eyrines and that onerth or whatever its called is going to be erased," Simul said. (ooc:I know that technically breaks the fourth wall.) "And Actually that isn't my plan. When my plan is complete no one shall rule and everyone shall rule. Still its ironic that you mentioned the Abyss because the form of government I am planning for my world has two named one is republic and the other is democracy which kind of sounds like demon," Simul said. "Also I don't dismiss them as evil I dismiss them as useless and unneccessary," Simul said, "Sort of like the appendix it does noting but take up space."
BoringInfoGuy 10-09-07, 10:58 PM	[OOC :Just wanted to let people know that Hydryh is currently without internet. Which is why Lord Boydson has been silent for so long. He wants to let everyone know that he's touched by the continued interest in this thread, and will be back online as soon as he can.] Hallo there Count Ian Boydson, King Donen Barglave of the Dwarven clan Barglave, wishes to ask of you two things. I have fought with my God's blessings and defended my clan as best I could for a while now, but I fear I have more ahead of me and I would not know how to face it. To be the best Paladin I could be, by your opinion, what rank should I further prestige my skills in to make a me not only able to use my healing capabilities well but to be able to defend well. I have lives to watch out on, and another experienced warrior of the gods opinion could prove helpful. Also what else should i do to train up my Lay on Hands ability to make it very effective. In the ways that even my god would be impressed by? Greetings King Donen Barglave. While Count Boydson is away, perhaps I can be of some service. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Ren, a human Paladin from the kingdom of Rotellus. Count Ian Boydson is the paladin who trained me. While normally I would not speak in his place, my experiences may be of service to you. Your question is twofold, but your intent is singular. You seek power to defend your kingdom. That is both good and right. But you focus on personal power. No matter how much you work on strengthening your Lay on Hands ability, it will not match the healing powers of a cleric. Do not think that I dismiss our Lay on Hands ability. Where we lack power, we gain great flexibility and control. Instead of seeking to make your god impressed by the strength of your ability, seek out companions and allies that can help you. And who you can help in turn. No matter how powerful, there is a limit to what one can do. I implore you thus. Whatever challenges you face ahead, do not face them alone. In true allies you will find your greatest strength. This I tell you as the least of paladins. Never will the bards sing of my prowess in battle or how my name strikes terror into the heart of my foes. But even one such as I can make a difference as part of a larger whole. I am weak. But I've learned that any who stands alone is weak. [Looks around at the gathered paladins and all those who believe in what is good.] I am weak. But we are strong. [OOC: Hydryh is DMing the game where I play Ren. We have similar - but not identical - views on paladins].
Suzaku455 10-10-07, 12:23 AM	(I look more like a vampire w/o fangs or the ability to shift forms) Well I managed to solve my problem on my own by having various prominent church officials of various good align gods including the member of the paladin’s church. Unfortunately this was not before the paladin and his allies managed to beat me and just before Paladin struck me down he lost his abilities which just happens to be the same time that the paladin’s superior arrive. I know I shouldn’t feel bad about his fall, but for some reason I can’t help to think it’s some what my fault. Is there anything you can say that can ease my guilt for I may have temporarily removed a powerful ally to the cause of good?
darkneolink 10-10-07, 12:06 PM	"It's not your fault" Igneo said looking at his now empty glass -"he didn't listen to reasons"- then he faced the undead -"he should have stoped when his smite ability did not work... but some times our own pride leads us to make mistakes"- he then smiled -"but as long as he learns and your nation didn't lose a protector everything will be fine"- he got serious-"lets hope his hubris doesn't take him from the path of good"
Stormbrand 10-10-07, 01:39 PM	(I look more like a vampire w/o fangs or the ability to shift forms) Well I managed to solve my problem on my own by having various prominent church officials of various good align gods including the member of the paladin’s church. Unfortunately this was not before the paladin and his allies managed to beat me and just before Paladin struck me down he lost his abilities which just happens to be the same time that the paladin’s superior arrive. I know I shouldn’t feel bad about his fall, but for some reason I can’t help to think it’s some what my fault. Is there anything you can say that can ease my guilt for I may have temporarily removed a powerful ally to the cause of good? My sympathy to you. As for the paladin, he Fell for his own actions. Whatever his reasons or circumstances, Falling was the result of betraying his principles or choosing the wicked path. What if he had destroyed you? Would that not also have removed a powerful ally to the cause of good? In plain truth, I think you did the paladin a favour. So long as he allows mindless hatred and violent ignorance to govern his actions he is unfit for his sacred duty. Now is the time for him to atone, and that will see to the betterment of a knight in sure need of it.
Stormbrand 10-10-07, 02:40 PM	"I am merely stating that you rely on morality too much. No matter what is done concerning good and evil nothing will ever change. Therefore the only use of morality is as a tool to use as you see fit. I don't just mean good I mean all types of morality," Simul said. Plenty has changed. The presence of my kingdom is a very significant change. Thousands of refugees once starving and oppressed in shantytowns are now living free and happy and prosperous. Lands once in fear of brigands which infested them have been made mostly safe. Nomad tribes once dreading the times ahead have found secure allies who support them in times of need. Evil was what oppressed the refugees in the first place. Good is what rescued them. "A bunch of lazy bastards that rule because a bunch of divine bastards told them they could. In my world most of the gods are basically parasites that stole their power from the world original creatores during which a hole in the universe was made allowing access to the Far Realm. I don't plan on leaving any trace of those gods on the prime expectially not people they put in charge," Simul said, "If you need proof that their responsible from the Far Realm invasions I have records of the events in draconic that date back to before Io of my reality one of the last of the original creators created the dragons to replace his lost kin." Divine Right? That is a very different matter to rulership. My disagreement is not with opposing the institution but with pointlessly and systematically hunting down and murdering those whose bloodline offends you. That is called genocide and makes you worse than any noble or god that you revile. I shall address the matter of the institution itself in a moment. "How long do you really expect that to last? Another twenty years at most or do you expect things to stay like that. Monarchy has too many flaws," Simul said Beyond my lifetime, at least. A High Council is in place, which could easily rule in my absence and rule well. As for monarchy, consider this, many qualities are inherited in a bloodline and many skills can be taught by father to son. In this case, an angelic bloodline by nature imparts a sense of justice, wisdom and leadership. All fine qualities in a ruler. Furthermore, the heir would spend his life learning the ways and skills of effective rulership. So monarchy takes steps to ensure a qualified leader. "Did you expect me not to use the fire analogy after you used water? Still your observation about them is correct in how the energies behave. Still how does that make it evil? Negative energy hurts a yuggoloth as much as it would anything else and postive energy heals a yuggoloth as much as it would anytihng else," Simul said. So? Many acts carry moral weight. Essence of death and decay is most easily used for destructive purposes which are often evil. Essence of life and creation are most easily used for kind and noble purposes which are often good. Focus on negative energy limits one to destruction. Finally freedom is just as harmed by good as it is by evil. Their is more then law and chaos and good and evil," Simul said, "However evil at least shows results." Spoken false yet again. Freedom from cruelty and tyranny and murder and suffering are granted by Good. Evil grants only slavery to base urges, you yourself are a slave of hate and madness. Saryn replies to the paladin-king in earnest, "There are as many orders of these Avengers as there are of paladins. Unlike paladins, however, some may not be of such true heart." At that he smiles. "However, there are several orders dedicated to the cause of good for the land they're home to, and I would be surprised if there wasn't a guild of avengers in your land. Many are unknown even to their rulers. As far as honesty goes, they are just as varied in their actions as the common man is." (OOC: On his name, it isn't pronounced how it looks. It's pronounced Shryn, with a soft H.) Each Avenger is best judged on his own merits. My assessment of their honesty is based on the fact that they actively teach themselves how to deceive and betray. With regard to a guild, the rumour in my kingdom that I know most of the deer and plants by their first names is not far from the truth. My realm is currently small enough to know so well, and my people gain nought by deceiving me. "Compassion leads to overpopulation, overpopulation leads to a lack of food, a lack of food leads to everyone dieing a horrible death from starvation," Simul said. False. Compassion leads to safety and happiness and prosperity and an end to suffering. "I'm saying when you get down to the basics all of the alignments use the exact same tools for the exact same thing," Simul said. A strange claim when each seeks to accomplish opposite goals. "I doubt existence needs the gods if someone wants to pray to something they have the elemental lords and stuff like that. Never talk to my realities Archonomental of water he actually took over my realities Baator, Geheena, and Hades," Simul said. Which would be different to gods how? "And Actually that isn't my plan. When my plan is complete no one shall rule and everyone shall rule. Still its ironic that you mentioned the Abyss because the form of government I am planning for my world has two named one is republic and the other is democracy which kind of sounds like demon," Simul said. Interesting, yet not everyone is qualified for rulership. If people all have power, then society will work against itself. If the people appoint those in power, then those appointed will be skilled in deceiving the masses rather than ruling well.
Thegans 10-10-07, 05:28 PM	Plenty has changed. The presence of my kingdom is a very significant change. Thousands of refugees once starving and oppressed in shantytowns are now living free and happy and prosperous. Lands once in fear of brigands which infested them have been made mostly safe. Nomad tribes once dreading the times ahead have found secure allies who support them in times of need. Evil was what oppressed the refugees in the first place. Good is what rescued them. "That still sounds like what the sladdi do. Your reality is as wierd as the fact that you have green grass," Simul said. Divine Right? That is a very different matter to rulership. My disagreement is not with opposing the institution but with pointlessly and systematically hunting down and murdering those whose bloodline offends you. That is called genocide and makes you worse than any noble or god that you revile. I shall address the matter of the institution itself in a moment. "Actually while close the term genocide is when you kill a race of people such as if I decided all suels should die. I think the term is regicide. But I will see genocide before I see the never ending vision come true," Simul said. Beyond my lifetime, at least. A High Council is in place, which could easily rule in my absence and rule well. As for monarchy, consider this, many qualities are inherited in a bloodline and many skills can be taught by father to son. In this case, an angelic bloodline by nature imparts a sense of justice, wisdom and leadership. All fine qualities in a ruler. Furthermore, the heir would spend his life learning the ways and skills of effective rulership. So monarchy takes steps to ensure a qualified leader. "By that logic Asmodeous should gave never been able to teach the beings of law about good and evil," Simul said. So? Many acts carry moral weight. Essence of death and decay is most easily used for destructive purposes which are often evil. Essence of life and creation are most easily used for kind and noble purposes which are often good. Focus on negative energy limits one to destruction. "And hacking them to pieces with a sword is any different. Destruction is what makes the universe run and allows things to continue," Simul said. Spoken false yet again. Freedom from cruelty and tyranny and murder and suffering are granted by Good. Evil grants only slavery to base urges, you yourself are a slave of hate and madness. "Then why is it that the most free beings are beyond good and evil," Simul said. False. Compassion leads to safety and happiness and prosperity and an end to suffering. "I assume you also believe the world is flat," Simul said. A strange claim when each seeks to accomplish opposite goals. "Good wants to destroy evil, evil wants to destroy good, law wants to destroy chaos, chaos wants to destroy law. How are those goals any different from each other?" Simul said. Which would be different to gods how? "Their existence is more concrete. The gods or powers as the Athar call them are not deserving of worship and are not true creators they merely claim that," Simul said, "Also one has a divine rank and the other a cosmic rank." Interesting, yet not everyone is qualified for rulership. If people all have power, then society will work against itself. If the people appoint those in power, then those appointed will be skilled in deceiving the masses rather than ruling well. "Thats why you give the people incharge of governing as little power as possible," Simul said. Simul's eyes close as if he's fallen asleep standing up. A small boy apparently no older then seven wearing a black cloack and armor appears. "I would suggest ignoring Simul it is what me and the rest of my siblings do. Just for the record I take offense to calling Simul evil he is too immoral for me or any of my siblings to use him as a lesser host," the child said. "To explain their are five sentiences in the reality Simul and I are from. Four are in thought siblings and the fifth is not. these sentiences can create mortal aspects that eventually learn what they are. I am Tatul the essence of evil," the boy said. "Now then the reason why I am here. I need a suggestion. Every 12,000 or so years there is an event that must take place to keep the threads of time from ending. However Simul got in the way and one of my sisters did not recieve the signs because things had changed too much. Law is incharge of watching the thread to make sure we have enough time to renew time and Chaos has too low of an attention span to the point that he sometimes forgets that he is suppouse to be chaos," Tatul said, "Now then if you were looking for a being of pure good beyond that of the celestials with out the essence of law or chaos that is in a mortal form where would you look? I have to admit that isn't what I'm good at. Pardon the pun." "Also if you decide to stab Simul I will gladly find a way to lend you the money for an attonement spell if you somehow fall," Tatul said.
Knights_Disciple 10-10-07, 06:01 PM	*The paladin handily dispatches the strange, seemingly insane creature, first with an animated shield blocking the attack, and secondly by backhanding it across the room into unconsciousness. After a brief moment of fingering a holy symbol and muttering, an angel appears and disappears, taking the strange creature with it.* "That still sounds like what the sladdi do. Your reality is as wierd as the fact that you have green grass," Simul said. *Blink* This statement leads me to believe you are not only insane, so is your entire plain of existence. "Good wants to destroy evil, evil wants to destroy good, law wants to destroy chaos, chaos wants to destroy law. How are those goals any different from each other?" Simul said. I would argue that Good's primary want is the spread of love, compassion, and good, and that the other "alignments", if you will, equally wish to spread themselves. This does lead to clashes between the opposing extremes, yes, but I do not believe that the primary want of each is the destruction of the other. "Their existence is more concrete. The gods or powers as the Athar call them are not deserving of worship and are not true creators they merely claim that," Simul said, "Also one has a divine rank and the other a cosmic rank." Perhaps in your plain this statement is true, though it seems strange, but here the deities are very concrete, powerful, and have indeed created many things. I've spoken with some of the good deities during my brief stays in the afterlife. (OOC: Four in-campaign deaths, folks. Four.) " "I would suggest ignoring Simul it is what me and the rest of my siblings do. Just for the record I take offense to calling Simul evil he is too immoral for me or any of my siblings to use him as a lesser host," the child said. I would say that one being "too immoral" would be in fact be the epitome of evil; however, if you had described him as "amoral", and merely a manifestation of chaos (which he certainly acts and speaks like), I might better accept. And I never drew a blade against him, or his insane little pet. He is the first to violate the non-violence of this discussion, something some of the other, decidedly vile, contributers have not done. (OOC: Seriously Thegans, I'm having a hard time debating with an insane little kid who apparently comes from a completely different setting/background/reference point. It hurts my head.)
Thegans 10-10-07, 06:51 PM	*The paladin handily dispatches the strange, seemingly insane creature, first with an animated shield blocking the attack, and secondly by backhanding it across the room into unconsciousness. After a brief moment of fingering a holy symbol and muttering, an angel appears and disappears, taking the strange creature with it.* *Blink* This statement leads me to believe you are not only insane, so is your entire plain of existence. I would argue that Good's primary want is the spread of love, compassion, and good, and that the other "alignments", if you will, equally wish to spread themselves. This does lead to clashes between the opposing extremes, yes, but I do not believe that the primary want of each is the destruction of the other. Perhaps in your plain this statement is true, though it seems strange, but here the deities are very concrete, powerful, and have indeed created many things. I've spoken with some of the good deities during my brief stays in the afterlife. (OOC: Four in-campaign deaths, folks. Four.) I would say that one being "too immoral" would be in fact be the epitome of evil; however, if you had described him as "amoral", and merely a manifestation of chaos (which he certainly acts and speaks like), I might better accept. And I never drew a blade against him, or his insane little pet. He is the first to violate the non-violence of this discussion, something some of the other, decidedly vile, contributers have not done. (OOC: Seriously Thegans, I'm having a hard time debating with an insane little kid who apparently comes from a completely different setting/background/reference point. It hurts my head.) "Sorry I keep getting those words confused the pronounciation of them is too similar also the reality we come from is rather wierd. The grass is actually red and I have no idea why we have silver trees. Personally I don't get why they let Chaos design the plant life. Also as I said my brother Chaos sometimes forgets that he is chaos. And I don't know about the other worlds but morality is basically a game designed by my older sister Law. I actually don't want Good to get destroyed but so far only Chaos has figure out how to break the rules of the game," Tatul said, "We think Simul might be the incarnation of the enemy the force that attempts to end the game." "Personally I would kill him but Law is a ***** when you try to do something outside of the rules," Tatul said. (ooc: Thats ok I'm done with him anyway which is why Tatul made him to to sleep and I don't think I ever said he was a little kid. Now the person claiming to be the incarnation of evil is a little kid. I mostly made Simul because of a topic saying that true neutral is do nothing. If you notice Simul's idea of good,evil,law, and chaos is similar to the Rilmini idea of keeping the war going but instead of having it continue he's trying to keep them balanced by getting rid of them.) Tatul teleports Simul away.
Knights_Disciple 10-10-07, 08:00 PM	(OOC: I'm certainly not saying leave the thread, I was just expressing the difficulty I had interacting with him. He's very good as Chaos incarnate. :) ) *The paladin sighs in relief at the exit of personified Chaos and Evil.* Ah, forgive me, my fellows, in all the, er, excitement, I forgot to introduce myself. I am Erunion Manveru, Paladin of the Order of the Shining Blades of Heironeous, and I am most honored to be here.
Thegans 10-10-07, 08:50 PM	(OOC: I'm certainly not saying leave the thread, I was just expressing the difficulty I had interacting with him. He's very good as Chaos incarnate. :) ) *The paladin sighs in relief at the exit of personified Chaos and Evil.* Ah, forgive me, my fellows, in all the, er, excitement, I forgot to introduce myself. I am Erunion Manveru, Paladin of the Order of the Shining Blades of Heironeous, and I am most honored to be here. (ooc: Yeah but I ran out of ideas for things Simul should do. Still I don't think Simul would be chaotic.)
Suzaku455 10-10-07, 09:18 PM	(different character now) My great Grandfather has recently ascended to god hood normally I would be proud but he was an evil man and now an evil god. I must keep my name and identity secret for fear of people attacking me because of my families’ history but more importantly the clerics and blackguard of my grandfather are searching for me for some ritual I do not know the purpose for. Ever since the beginning of my childhood I was raised to be cruel and evil as my ancestors but at the age of 14 I have fled because I did like to see people suffered or be oppressed. One day when I wandered into a forest to avoid my grand father’s clerics I got hopelessly lost. Until I managed to find a stone platform with a sword thrust into a small pedestal standing upright. I managed to lift the sword out of the pedestal and I was surrounded by a white light. Soon afterwards I found myself quite comfortable swinging the sword with no prior training and if I focus and believe a foe is evil I seem to be able to land a blow more devastating then it should be, but it only seems to work on evil kind. I also seem to heal myself or others simply laying my hands on them be it a limited amount. Do you know what’s happening to me?
Stormbrand 10-11-07, 03:11 PM	"That still sounds like what the sladdi do. Your reality is as wierd as the fact that you have green grass," Simul said. No, it does not sound like what the slaad do. You know that full well. "Actually while close the term genocide is when you kill a race of people such as if I decided all suels should die. I think the term is regicide. But I will see genocide before I see the never ending vision come true," Simul said. Killing one king is regicide, killing everyone whose bloodline displeases you is genocide. "By that logic Asmodeous should gave never been able to teach the beings of law about good and evil," Simul said. Logic? Your claim has no relevance to anything I just said. "And hacking them to pieces with a sword is any different. Destruction is what makes the universe run and allows things to continue," Simul said. A sword depends on the hand that wields it, negative energy is hungry to destroy. Thus, a sword can be used more judiciously. "Then why is it that the most free beings are beyond good and evil," Simul said. 'Tis not. There can be no freedom without choice, and choice is what makes Good or Evil. "I assume you also believe the world is flat," Simul said. No, I believe in these wonderful things called hills. "Good wants to destroy evil, evil wants to destroy good, law wants to destroy chaos, chaos wants to destroy law. How are those goals any different from each other?" Simul said. Those goals? Or the actual goals of Good and Law, or Evil and Chaos? Good seeks to bring about the best. Evil seeks to corrupt and destroy. Law seeks to establish consistancy so all things have meaning. Chaos seeks to shatter all limitations, including the virtue of restraint. "Their existence is more concrete. The gods or powers as the Athar call them are not deserving of worship and are not true creators they merely claim that," Simul said, "Also one has a divine rank and the other a cosmic rank." Again I ask, how is this different? By the way, so what if the gods or powers are not creators? Few gods I know of make such a claim. A god who embodies chivalry and valour and compassion and righteousness is well worth praying to. "Thats why you give the people incharge of governing as little power as possible," Simul said. Thus society is unable to protect or provide. "I would suggest ignoring Simul it is what me and the rest of my siblings do. While normally good advice, Simul is no mere powerless child to be ignored, he is too dangerous.
Knights_Disciple 10-11-07, 04:36 PM	(different character now) My great Grandfather has recently ascended to god hood normally I would be proud but he was an evil man and now an evil god. I must keep my name and identity secret for fear of people attacking me because of my families’ history but more importantly the clerics and blackguard of my grandfather are searching for me for some ritual I do not know the purpose for. Ever since the beginning of my childhood I was raised to be cruel and evil as my ancestors but at the age of 14 I have fled because I did like to see people suffered or be oppressed. One day when I wandered into a forest to avoid my grand father’s clerics I got hopelessly lost. Until I managed to find a stone platform with a sword thrust into a small pedestal standing upright. I managed to lift the sword out of the pedestal and I was surrounded by a white light. Soon afterwards I found myself quite comfortable swinging the sword with no prior training and if I focus and believe a foe is evil I seem to be able to land a blow more devastating then it should be, but it only seems to work on evil kind. I also seem to heal myself or others simply laying my hands on them be it a limited amount. Do you know what’s happening to me? As for defying your family's overpowering history of evil, I applaud youd. That alone puts you in the same ranks of courage as any of us paladins. To defy an ancestor who has also ascended to godhood? Mind-boggling. As for your experience with the sword you speak of. I would say you have been called by the gods of Good to be a paladin. The abilities of which you speak are the hallmarks of our orders, varied as they may be. The ease with which you seem to be using your sword suggests it is a powerful artifact, perhaps even intelligent, and is giving you some form of subconscious training. I would suggest finding a temple that will not immediately attack you, and seeking fuller training. Or perhaps one of my brethern here may have the capability to do so. I fear my questing takes me to places one so new to the call as you dare not go. (OOC: example: fighting an Infernal (epic demon abomination thing, from epic lvl handbook.) Welcome to the greatest calling in your life, my friend.
Thegans 10-11-07, 10:05 PM	No, it does not sound like what the slaad do. You know that full well. Killing one king is regicide, killing everyone whose bloodline displeases you is genocide. Logic? Your claim has no relevance to anything I just said. A sword depends on the hand that wields it, negative energy is hungry to destroy. Thus, a sword can be used more judiciously. 'Tis not. There can be no freedom without choice, and choice is what makes Good or Evil. No, I believe in these wonderful things called hills. Those goals? Or the actual goals of Good and Law, or Evil and Chaos? Good seeks to bring about the best. Evil seeks to corrupt and destroy. Law seeks to establish consistancy so all things have meaning. Chaos seeks to shatter all limitations, including the virtue of restraint. Again I ask, how is this different? By the way, so what if the gods or powers are not creators? Few gods I know of make such a claim. A god who embodies chivalry and valour and compassion and righteousness is well worth praying to. Thus society is unable to protect or provide. While normally good advice, Simul is no mere powerless child to be ignored, he is too dangerous. "I don't get why he's not a druid heck his comment about hte most free beings was probably refering to animals. Still I know he is dangerous. Simul may very well end time by not letting events go as they must," Tatul said, "Simul wants revenge . Simul is actually of a human sub race descended from the creators of the prime in the world that me and him are from. My brother Chaos got bored and caused a disaster that lead to the transcendent as they called themselves to their near demise allowing the gods to claim their power. Also for the record I wasn't involved in this I was busy with something else. Truth be told me and my siblings and time its self didn't exist until after the gods rose to power." "Also Simul is actually over three hundred years old because of wish spells and other magic. The only reason he hasn't been killed by a god yet is because their are rules against that that even the evil and chaotic ones follow. Heck if I poked him I would lose all my powers and Law would start compaining that I ruined her game," Tatul said, "Personally I'm begining to find things boring. So any advice on where to look to find the mortal incarnation of my sister?" "Oh and with the flat thing Simul meant do you think the prime is like a piece of paper. Most primes are actually sphere shapped with people living on the outside of the sphere," Tatul said.
Devil Gnasher 10-11-07, 11:27 PM	Divine Right? That is a very different matter to rulership. My disagreement is not with opposing the institution but with pointlessly and systematically hunting down and murdering those whose bloodline offends you. That is called genocide and makes you worse than any noble or god that you revile. A large brown bear clad in dark green linen, fused bone armor and greaves made from green dragon scales stands. He then says, "That while I have no great love for monarchies in general, I will not tolerate cold-blooded murder." He then turns to the spot formerly occupied by Simul and says, "Murderous little lunatic. At least he can't torment us any more. Sadly he’ll find others to maim, kill and torture whether physically or verbally." As for monarchy, consider this, many qualities are inherited in a bloodline and many skills can be taught by father to son. In this case, an angelic bloodline by nature imparts a sense of justice, wisdom and leadership. All fine qualities in a ruler. Furthermore, the heir would spend his life learning the ways and skills of effective rulership. So monarchy takes steps to ensure a qualified leader. "If this is true, then why not base royal succession off of temperament and ability than linage? Instead of succession by right of blood it could be succession by right of adoption." So? Many acts carry moral weight. Essence of death and decay is most easily used for destructive purposes which are often evil. Essence of life and creation are most easily used for kind and noble purposes which are often good. Focus on negative energy limits one to destruction. "On my world scientific knowledge has advanced to such a point that we have discovered germ and cell theory. So forgive me if this is in any way confusing for you. From what I've studied as a necromancer out of control positive energy can be just as bad as out of control negative energy. Whether due to environmental or other factors, cells in the living body could begin to mutate in particularly harmful ways resulting in tumors or even cancer. Since cancer is a living parasite, positive energy (also known as organic generative energy in some circles) fuels and intensifies cancerous cells. The best and safest way we have found to reduce or even remove cancer is to cut it off from of the body and then revert it to its pre-cancerous state using negative energy." Which would be different to gods how? (OOC: This uses some Dicefreaks termonology if you're curious.) "First, Cosmic Entities have quasigod-like power through out the Cosmos, hence the title. Gods or Divine Beings have power in only those worlds in which they are worshiped. Cosmic Entities benefit from worshipers but don't require any. On some worlds gods require worshipers to exist. On the other hand, Cosmic Entities must be summoned in to the Prime Material Plane if they wish to visit it. Gods can freely enter any world on which they are worshiped. All of the Planar Lords are Cosmic Entities." Interesting, yet not everyone is qualified for rulership. If people all have power, then society will work against itself. If the people appoint those in power, then those appointed will be skilled in deceiving the masses rather than ruling well. "And if you have checks and balances along with concern for minority rights you get a high-minded freedom-loving republic. In addition, the representatives (not rulers) view themselves in the proper light, as servants or hired help, not as rulers or manipulators. That's what the elves on my world have had for centuries. I can't believe that I actually agreed with Simul on any topic. I almost feel like vomiting." -Yours truly, Barthold "Devil Gnasher" Dehmer. Bearfolk Deathslayer and Marshal of Liberty. Professor at and defender of Jonathan Ellington's Academy of the Necromantic Sciences in Airgeadcoill, Talamh Saoirse.
Stormbrand 10-13-07, 07:12 AM	A large brown bear clad in dark green linen, fused bone armor and greaves made from green dragon scales stands. He then says, "That while I have no great love for monarchies in general, I will not tolerate cold-blooded murder." He then turns to the spot formerly occupied by Simul and says, "Murderous little lunatic. At least he can't torment us any more. Sadly he’ll find others to maim, kill and torture whether physically or verbally." Aye, that is why I persisted in answering him. I owe it to his world to guide him towards reason. "If this is true, then why not base royal succession off of temperament and ability than linage? Instead of succession by right of blood it could be succession by right of adoption." Indeed. Lineage serves the mere goal of cultivating the necessary qualities. One trained from childhood would likely be best suited, however. Consider finding suitable successors. By the time many are found they would have spent much of their potential on other pursuits. "On my world scientific knowledge has advanced to such a point that we have discovered germ and cell theory. So forgive me if this is in any way confusing for you. From what I've studied as a necromancer out of control positive energy can be just as bad as out of control negative energy. Whether due to environmental or other factors, cells in the living body could begin to mutate in particularly harmful ways resulting in tumors or even cancer. Since cancer is a living parasite, positive energy (also known as organic generative energy in some circles) fuels and intensifies cancerous cells. The best and safest way we have found to reduce or even remove cancer is to cut it off from of the body and then revert it to its pre-cancerous state using negative energy." I have removed similar afflictions through my gift of purification (OOC: Remove Disease), which is tied to the essence of life. "First, Cosmic Entities have quasigod-like power through out the Cosmos, hence the title. Gods or Divine Beings have power in only those worlds in which they are worshiped. Cosmic Entities benefit from worshipers but don't require any. On some worlds gods require worshipers to exist. On the other hand, Cosmic Entities must be summoned in to the Prime Material Plane if they wish to visit it. Gods can freely enter any world on which they are worshiped. All of the Planar Lords are Cosmic Entities." There are many forms of worship, and no greater prayer than right action. The gods I know of live in the hearts of mortals who do not bow to them, fuelled by the qualities these mortals possess. "And if you have checks and balances along with concern for minority rights you get a high-minded freedom-loving republic. In addition, the representatives (not rulers) view themselves in the proper light, as servants or hired help, not as rulers or manipulators. That's what the elves on my world have had for centuries. While I would eagerly defend such a society, much of the function of government becomes long and laborious due to the lack of central authority. Those in need may not have time for long and laborious. Me & my Council do reserve the right to overrule laws for just and good purposes. The spirit of a law is the most important aspect of it. I can't believe that I actually agreed with Simul on any topic. I almost feel like vomiting." A perfectly natural response, my friend.
Mooncalf 10-13-07, 04:47 PM	Apologies for not replying earlier.. I was just -astounded- at the behavior of that... person. Sheer lunacy. Bizarre. Barring spells of deceit, we indeed do see the opposition for the people they actually are. Hence I speak against necromancy and undead rather than against you personally. Tell that to the ones who think they've got carte blance to slay everything they perceive as evil. At least one individual, when I came here, expressed his desire to 'dance on my grave' without even a moment's consideration. You seem to be putting actual thought to your decisions, however, instead of ALWAYS turning to your oath for guidance. You'll do well to cultivate that ability, I think... A creature of death is driven towards the destruction of life, as beings of life innately oppose death. Many undead are limited creatures, unable to create, the rare exception retaining the capacity from life. Preying upon others is very much the nature of Evil. Preying upon life is the nature of undeath. The link should be obvious. Beings of life oppose death? Death is a natural part of existence. Things die as an effect of life. Someone who opposes death would try to extend his life in various ways, some unnatural, such as becoming demons or other magic creatures. When I spoke of undead rising naturally earlier, I meant that they rose without magical aid, not that I consider spontaneous undead a part of the natural order. Just to clear up any misconception... It is my opinion that an undead is being driven either by its master's commands, or by its nature. By its nature, it may act on instinct, striking out at those it views as intruders or hostiles; it may be completely insane, as with many spectral undead, and is in a state of perpetual rage; or it may be driven by hunger, which may conflict with its alignment. A vampire who revels in being evil has no qualms about killing innocents for fun and sustenance, while one who tries to retain his natural goodness may try to compromise, such as seeking out lesser life forms or paying a willing host, and may take actions to atone for his nature in ways. Labeling undead as uniformly evil because they are aligned with death and you find death frightening and unnatural is a great disservice, I believe. It's easy to title something as evil just so you can ease your qualms about destroying it. It would brobably be morally easy to slay -anything- if one is first truly convinced of its evil... I referred to before the harm is done. Dealing with the chained killer before it breaks the leash. That is what I -said-. Please pay attention. Unless you're suggesting I should destroy a servant for fear that it -might- in the future slip loose and go on a killing spree. Which is senseless. You might as well decide to kill every child you encounter, because they -might- grow up to become a ruthless criminal. The uses of undead come with a price, how you use them is not at issue. Yet the price is not yours alone to pay, and thus the choice is not your right to make. Protective and summoning magic could shield your brother just as well, without the same peril to others, or even the risk of the minion who slips the leash costing your brother his life. I would like to say that my brother would strike you down for the suggestion that he was weak, but actually he'd probably just laugh. Brother is strong. He's tough. He's quite possibly more powerful, all things considered, than me. Though he is considerably more brawn than brain, but he is aware of that already. He relies on my servants, now, to take blows from the foe that would otherwise land on him. He does not expect them to fight for him, merely to last long enough for him to defeat the opposition without him taking quite as many injuries as usual. If one of my creations attacked him, though, he would crush it without a thought. Yes, I could summon animals and creatures to protect him. If I were a summoner instead of a necromancer. Of course, one could consider that there was a risk a summoned creature would attack him, too. Who's to say what could be? And he's doing a good job of magically shielding himself. He's good, and he does not rely on anyone else to save him. We back each other up well, but he's far from helpless. You speak as if innocence is to be regretted. Very strange. Only to the extent that being innocent means I have to be protected and saved by you and your kind. I get the impression from your opinions and words that you view me as a wide-eyed damsel dabbling in things without a single thought of what I'm doing, and it grates quite a bit. I am a practiced arcanist and capable of holding my own, thank you. Of course, if I've misjudged your intentions, I apologize. Reason serves a holy oath. We use our judgement to best fulfill our vows. Which is why I continue these discussions, sir. You're using your head for a bit more than just holding up your helmet. And this can only be achieved through paths of death and darkness? You spoke of the trap of negative rhetoric, here you fall into the trap of suggesting a choice between necromancy and being a farmer's wife in a dreary village. Again with the black and white? There's quite a lot of grey in between, I assure you. And yes, there's plenty of choices in between I could be happy to make that you would approve of. I could take up the church life, or become a merchant, or a musician. Really a lot of choices. The thing is, I have no reason to veer from the path now taken. I'm walking the road of necromancy. I have tasted its fruits and liked them, and I'm intrigued as to what comes next. At the end lies what I perceive as a great prize, as well as further promises beyond that. Yes, yes, you don't have to say it, I am watchful of what could be temptations and traps. But I'll trust -my- judgement. Additionally, I don't want to spred myself too thin. Those who dabble in many things find their attention broken and their craft weakened. One who takes up arcane art besides weapon training will not become as strong in either as one who masters either. One who dabbles in every field will forever be a mere neophyte. Would you yourself set aside your path to knightly greatness to learn how to skulk in alleys, perform on stage, or learn arcane mysteries? Would you weaken your resolve by constantly considering best ways to backstab a surprised foe, or discard your shining armor so it won't interfere with your mystic gestures or high-rope balancing? It's better to stay on the path, I think. (OOC: FEAR the horror that is multiclassing! ^_^) The part where it doesn't work. If they must disobey your will to be destroyed, their act of defiance would likely be a harmful one. I would think that being destroyed by my loyal creations would be harmful to it, yes. Yes, yes. I know what you mean. but I am ready for the possibility. I don't let others catch me unawares, least of all my own creations, and while most of my tools at hand are best used to combat living, I have enough available for defeating the undead as well. So why invite further taint needlessly? I was talking of -your- taint. You blissfully ignore the possibility of risking it and turn the subject back to me again. So to learn I must disregard the Teachings of Angels? Must disregard compassion and reason and justice? Is this lesson worth learning? To learn, you must be able to scrutinize and criticise your own conceptions. You must be able to consider the concept of the possibility that something you believe in might actually be wrong. Once you can do this, once you can see a side of yourself for what it is instead of living in ignorance, you will be strengthened. Many would think this means inviting doubt, that it would break you, that I'm trying to deteriorate your power. It's not. It's an opening of eyes. You will study your beliefs for the flaws that might be, that the blind obedient will ignore. If you find none, you will be greater for the knowledge. If you find any, you can correct them accordingly. Angels may fall, many have done so. Justice can be misled, reason can be corrupted, compassion may be abused and taken advantage of. If you do not keep an open eye, an open mind, you may become a victim. The rock you stand on may be nothing but sand. And yes, I do practice what I preach. Life & creation is anathema to you? Then you have my deepest pity. Each step towards death and decay limits you further. No, positive energy burns like it would burn an undead. The mere presence of life and creation is not a problem. But negative energy is like a balm, and it serves me well. Many spells in my repertoire channel it, and thus I have access to healing just like any divine servant, for me and my servants. Additionally, my touch is a wellspring of its dark essence, and just as it can wither and harm living, it heals both my undead and myself, with no limitation. If I'm harmed, I can restore myself with a touch, and do the same to my non-living allies. It may be slow, but outside of actual conflict, a few minutes may well be spared. It is a transformation I do not regret, because it is very advantageous to me. It does mean, admittedly, that my brother cannot heal me magically when I'm injured, but that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. He can stabilize wounds and once I'm awake I can see to myself well enough. As for him, I never had spells to heal him with in the first place, but we now have a cleric on retainer, and I did take a very useful wand from the last conflict, so I worry little. Apathy. Less an option for powerful spellcasters, as they may change many lives with their decisions. There is a space between the two, what when your power grows too large to fit in that space? So either save the kingdom, or perfect my baby-eating technique, or sit and twiddle my thumbs for centuries. I think that might not be quite everything. I'm not certain great power means my actions will change the lives of the populace, but we'll see. Maybe once we get to the capital, we'll do more interesting things than battling orcish hordes and saving handsome captive clerics. Once we get there. (OOC: Damn lazy DM.) Quite aware. Our gift has limits, yet serves a purpose. And you put overmuch faith in your powers to master creatures of death every time you create one with the belief that it will either obey or be destroyed. Consider the risk of subversion by your minions. You do the same. Anyone whom you work with or serve may use you to further their own ends. That is, I think, how the world works. trust no one. Keep your sword handy. Remember, you're not paranoid if you know they're out to get you.
Kelb_Havoc 01-16-08, 01:16 AM	Bump:bump: