Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trundle 04-03-06, 12:55 PM	I've been playing in an urban-based campaign that was centered primarily on sneaking/spying and the like. Basically all the characters are rogue-like, except for one swashbuckler (who's not much of a warrior). Recently, the DM purchased the Red Hand of Doom module and started us on that. We've been doing great so far (we're a couple levels higher than recommended, which plays a big part), but I don't think we're really cut out for this. We just ran into the first dragon (I'm assuming there are more, based on the flavor of the module), and the weaknesses of our party were made very apparent. The breakdown of our party is: 2 Halfling Rogues/Nightsong Enforcers 1 Dwarf Rogue/nightsong Infiltrator 1 Elf Scout/Nightsong Enforcer 1 Human Swashbuckler w/ a Silver Dragon Bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana) 1 Human Ninja w/ a Silver Dragon Bloodline (the swashbuckler's sister) So far, we've basically been wrecking everything we run across with sneak attacks. Most of us have decent ranged weapons and high initiative modifiers (improved init and dex through the roof), so that 30' ranged sneak attack during the first round has been a godsend. Anytime something lives through the first 2 rounds of combat we start to get edgy because our longevity isn't so hot (for obvious reasons). We made it out of our encounter with the dragon okay -- we completed the objective and snuck away in one piece. But I'm assuming that this dragon won't just disappear and we're going to have to deal with it at some point. So what I'm looking for is some advice on how some ECL 9 Rogue-types can take down a CR 11 Young Adult green dragon. We assume we're looking at 150+ hps, AC25+, blindsense, breath weapon, flight, etc. etc. etc. Some of our major/unusual assets include: Really good hide/move silently modifiers (15+ for everybody except the swashbuckler) Actually, pretty good skills all around (I think we all have 16+ Int, for the original nature of the campaign) A flying carpet The humans both fly as well (I think they took a level-adjustment for it) A bag of tricks (whatever the best kind is -- tan?) A crystal ball Pretty good Craft(Trapmaking) ability and a DM who doesn't enforce the ridiculous Craft times. The Scout can function as a mobile artillery station -- his move spees is 50' and he can fire 4x in a full attack or 2x (Greater Manyshot) w/ skirmish. The only major "advantage" I can see is that it's breath weapon (usually one of the most devasting elements of a dragon) is much weaker against us (high reflex saves + evasion) than a regular party. However, trying to actually kill it seems like an insurmountable task. My best plans so far involve: Somehow setting up a trap/ambush or otherwise getting the drop on it. If we can pull off a surprise round and beat it on initiative, I'm hoping to get maybe 60 damage done from ranged sneak attacks before it can act. This is easier said than done, though, with blindsense 60'. Next, we'll probably have to close to melee -- I think we can set up flanks and maybe use up the dragon's AoOs (it's got reach, don't forget) if we're lucky using the bag of tricks. Even with flanking, I'm guessing most of us are hitting on 16+, and none of us have any strength modifier to speak of. Best case scenario, I think we could sneak attack it to death (with the flanks) in 4 rounds or so. Of course, with a full-attack action, that dragon could probably kill one of us every other round (or my character, one of the halflings, in one round if it has luck). And losing a character or two to claws/bites is the *best*-case scenario I can see at this point. If the dragon takes to the air, we're basically hosed. We can actually get the whole party airborne between the carpet and the flyers, but once we're up there we'll be sitting ducks. Sure, we can evade the breath weapon, but I'm not sure what the rules think about the carpet -- will it need to make a save? If it melts when we're 100' in the air, we're toast. Or we can try to whittle it down with ranged weapons, but none of us have heavy damage output without sneak attack, which means a fairly prolonged combat... and we will fail that reflex save from the breath weapon eventually. So, any idea? =)
Rickiel 04-03-06, 04:03 PM	No major arcane, healing, tanking ability. Yep, I'm thinking TRAP TRAP TRAP is the way to go. But how do you trap a dragon? Bait? Or simply REALLY tick that dragon off. (hint-take a shot at it's pride) Find a cave, and rig it so that at a certain point you and your friends can collapse it while you guys can still make a run for it. It might not do the trick though so think of alternative damage dealing devices. (Alchemist fire..... HEY IT DOESN'T REGENERATE AT LEAST!) Have you thought about hiring some dragon-slayers? Concerned paladins? Farm-boys who happen to come across rusty ole family swords that just so happens to be a +5 Draconic Doom of Draconic Scaley Bits? Okay ignore the farm boy. You'll be LUCKY at all to even surround the dragon in melee and pull off the dozens of sneak attack damage you'll be needing. Think about it's blindsense and intelligence. Dragons live to be Young Adult only if they're smart enough to earn a bachelor's degree in quantum physics after all. You and your other sneaky buddies CAN pull this off. It'll take tough work, and it'll make you guys sweat at times. But you CAN do it!
kelvinaw273 04-03-06, 04:15 PM	Is don't create an unbalanced party.
cambric 04-03-06, 04:33 PM	Is don't create an unbalanced party. Read his initial posting: URBAN setting. Their party is built for that, and very well indeed... :clap: It's outside the city that they are in trouble. My recommendation: UMD!! Get some wands, scrolls, etc... Very tough indeed...good luck, because with dragons, you're going to need it. :help: Cam
Xaxor 04-03-06, 04:48 PM	Yeah, all those temples of Pelor out in the middle of nowhere... same with any major magical school. Man, it takes days to find the nearest cleric. *cough* On a more serious note, take a look at Deft Strike from CV. I'm sure you have the Spot ranks for it...
tharveysinjin 04-03-06, 05:26 PM	I've been playing in an urban-based campaign that was centered primarily on sneaking/spying and the like. Basically all the characters are rogue-like, except for one swashbuckler (who's not much of a warrior). Recently, the DM purchased the Red Hand of Doom module and started us on that. We've been doing great so far (we're a couple levels higher than recommended, which plays a big part), but I don't think we're really cut out for this. We just ran into the first dragon (I'm assuming there are more, based on the flavor of the module), and the weaknesses of our party were made very apparent. The breakdown of our party is: 2 Halfling Rogues/Nightsong Enforcers 1 Dwarf Rogue/nightsong Infiltrator 1 Elf Scout/Nightsong Enforcer 1 Human Swashbuckler w/ a Silver Dragon Bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana) 1 Human Ninja w/ a Silver Dragon Bloodline (the swashbuckler's sister) So far, we've basically been wrecking everything we run across with sneak attacks. Most of us have decent ranged weapons and high initiative modifiers (improved init and dex through the roof), so that 30' ranged sneak attack during the first round has been a godsend. Anytime something lives through the first 2 rounds of combat we start to get edgy because our longevity isn't so hot (for obvious reasons). We made it out of our encounter with the dragon okay -- we completed the objective and snuck away in one piece. But I'm assuming that this dragon won't just disappear and we're going to have to deal with it at some point. So what I'm looking for is some advice on how some ECL 9 Rogue-types can take down a CR 11 Young Adult green dragon. We assume we're looking at 150+ hps, AC25+, blindsense, breath weapon, flight, etc. etc. etc. Some of our major/unusual assets include: Really good hide/move silently modifiers (15+ for everybody except the swashbuckler) Actually, pretty good skills all around (I think we all have 16+ Int, for the original nature of the campaign) A flying carpet The humans both fly as well (I think they took a level-adjustment for it) A bag of tricks (whatever the best kind is -- tan?) A crystal ball Pretty good Craft(Trapmaking) ability and a DM who doesn't enforce the ridiculous Craft times. The Scout can function as a mobile artillery station -- his move spees is 50' and he can fire 4x in a full attack or 2x (Greater Manyshot) w/ skirmish. The only major "advantage" I can see is that it's breath weapon (usually one of the most devasting elements of a dragon) is much weaker against us (high reflex saves + evasion) than a regular party. However, trying to actually kill it seems like an insurmountable task. My best plans so far involve: Somehow setting up a trap/ambush or otherwise getting the drop on it. If we can pull off a surprise round and beat it on initiative, I'm hoping to get maybe 60 damage done from ranged sneak attacks before it can act. This is easier said than done, though, with blindsense 60'. Next, we'll probably have to close to melee -- I think we can set up flanks and maybe use up the dragon's AoOs (it's got reach, don't forget) if we're lucky using the bag of tricks. Even with flanking, I'm guessing most of us are hitting on 16+, and none of us have any strength modifier to speak of. Best case scenario, I think we could sneak attack it to death (with the flanks) in 4 rounds or so. Of course, with a full-attack action, that dragon could probably kill one of us every other round (or my character, one of the halflings, in one round if it has luck). And losing a character or two to claws/bites is the *best*-case scenario I can see at this point. If the dragon takes to the air, we're basically hosed. We can actually get the whole party airborne between the carpet and the flyers, but once we're up there we'll be sitting ducks. Sure, we can evade the breath weapon, but I'm not sure what the rules think about the carpet -- will it need to make a save? If it melts when we're 100' in the air, we're toast. Or we can try to whittle it down with ranged weapons, but none of us have heavy damage output without sneak attack, which means a fairly prolonged combat... and we will fail that reflex save from the breath weapon eventually. So, any idea? =) Your question made me remember a scene from the movie "The patriot", where the protagonist has just read the memoirs of general Cornwallis and determined that the man is a military genius. There wasn't a lot of hope in defeating Cornwallis, unless they could find a weakness. The weakness they found was pride. "Pride will do". I would not think that a group of PCs would be able to fool a dragon into following them into a physical trap. However, perhaps a mental trap would be easier. Dragons tend to be egomaniacs. Pride is certainly a weakness that you could try to exploit. not all battles have to be fought on the battlefield. If it is at all possible, perhaps you could convince the dragon to participate in a contest, with the loser forced to leave the vicinity. You won't kill the dragon, but at least you should get the experience for the encounter. This would allow your group to role-play through the encounter and it gives you a slight edge, because your group would issue the challenge. That means, you've got time to come up with a plan and then try to put it into motion. it also gives you, going off of your PC count, six minds working together versus the DM. For instance, and pardon the cliche, but for the sake of the discussion, I offer the example of a battle of wits, designed around a contest of riddles. If you plan correctly, you could have several challenging riddles already worked out. However, your DM is not likely to have a number of riddles ready to go at a moment's notice. In addition, the odds are in your favor when answering your DM's riddles, with six of you to think of the answers. Of course, you might also challenge the dragon to compete in a game of chance, which would at least even the odds. If you can successfully challenge the dragon to some type of contest that takes away his advantages and places you in even or slighty better footing, then obviously, your chances are better. Of course, if combat is what you seek, then i'd suggest hiring some mercenaries or trying to find some magic items to help you.
Cifer 04-03-06, 06:43 PM	The dragon is basically dangerous in melee for you - breath weapon can be taken out of consideration for a while. In this case, try to make sure he cannot reach you. Hide in a small (dragon can't fit in), but long (dragon can't reach you from outside) tunnel. If he manages to squeeze inside, he at least will have some penalties. If he sticks around outside, you get to shoot at him with everything you've got. About flying: You don't want anything from him - he wants to kill you. Thus, he will have to come to you. Make that poor maneuverability work for you: Stand in front of a wall so he has to come down if he does not wish to crash.
Trundle 04-04-06, 10:06 AM	Read his initial posting: URBAN setting. Their party is built for that, and very well indeed... :clap: It's outside the city that they are in trouble. Thanks. Yeah, it's basically the party the DM told us to make. In fact, we were explicitly banned from making casters. And we were very well-suited to the challenges provided in the urban setting... But since he bought this module, I think we're going to have to get more and more creative about how to solve our problems. Which, hopefully will make for a fun game. =) My recommendation: UMD!! Get some wands, scrolls, etc... Very tough indeed...good luck, because with dragons, you're going to need it. :help: Cam Thanks. A couple of us have decent UMD (that's how we took out our objective, actually -- with a scroll). Any recommendations on what sort of wands, etc. would actually help against a dragon? I think we've got about $16k or so in liquid cash right now, and probably close to that in pawnable goods, if we need it.
DrMorganes 04-04-06, 10:54 AM	The dragon is basically dangerous in melee for you - breath weapon can be taken out of consideration for a while. In this case, try to make sure he cannot reach you. Hide in a small (dragon can't fit in), but long (dragon can't reach you from outside) tunnel. If he manages to squeeze inside, he at least will have some penalties. If he sticks around outside, you get to shoot at him with everything you've got.Which also limits your maneuverability, making you far more vulnerable to its breath weapon. (**shudders at the thought of said dragon having the Lingering Breath metabreath feat from Draconomicon**) Regarding the contest of wits: remember that you're dealing with evil dragons here. In the highly unlikely event that this green will actually honor the terms of the contest (if it loses, that is - expect full enforcement should it win), you should fully expect some form of trechery. "Leave the area" can be interpreted in a variety of ways, including taking to the air (100' up is NOT the same area!), shunting one's draconic self to the Ethereal Plane, or tracking the PCs and attacking from ambush in some other area. I question your DM's decision to ban arcane casters from your party, and then run the troupe through a campaign which virtually requires arcane firepower to overcome. Ya might want to have a brief discussion with him about this before your next game. Perhaps one of you can swap in a Daggerspell Mage (rogue/wizard PrC from Complete Adventurer). Keeps with the stealthy aspect of the party, but adds some arcane firepower to boot. Failing that, you'll need to follow all the steps for successful dragon hunting: Limit the field Pick the time and place Take advantage of the dragon's weaknesses Buff yourself to resist attacks appropriate to its type Additionally, you're likely to have a hard time landing Sneak Attacks on a dragon given its size and AC (recall that you must be able to REACH that vital spot). Still better, however, would be to find a way to contain the dragon. Forcecage or severals Walls of Force cast via wands or scrolls may be helpful here, but be mindful of the limited duration! Some form of touch attack would be VERY helpful here - you'd need to be blind and facing the other way to miss it's touch AC - preferably something WITHOUT Spell Resistance. Unfortunately green dragons have no elemental vulnerability :(
Orchomenos 04-04-06, 10:59 AM	Thanks. A couple of us have decent UMD (that's how we took out our objective, actually -- with a scroll). Any recommendations on what sort of wands, etc. would actually help against a dragon? I think we've got about $16k or so in liquid cash right now, and probably close to that in pawnable goods, if we need it. 16K? It's enough to buy 6-8 Arrows of DragonSlaying (2282 gp). Since you seem to all be decent archers, there's a high chance you'll hit. And amongst 6 arrows, there's a good chance the dragon will fail one fortitude save, which is enough to kill it... You could also try to use some poison agaisnt it, targetting its constitution. Given your poor fortitude saves, you shouldn't buy poison and use it yourself. Perhaps buying a Scroll of Summon Monster VII, and summon a fiendish monstrous scorpion. That, with a Wand of Silent Image (25 gp), used to create an apparent army of fiendish monstrous scorpions, could perhaps foil the dragon...
Derren S. 04-04-06, 11:00 AM	Hope that your DM plays the dragon weaker has he should be because he takes a pity in you.
runestar 04-04-06, 12:06 PM	UMD wands of ghost hand and shivering touch... :P
Sapper2219 04-04-06, 02:23 PM	...take it or leave it. As a DM who is planning on moving my plotline into the Red Hand of Doom, and having prepared to start it...You are hosed.....Without a balanced party you will have a very difficult time with all the encounters. I can specifically think of several areas where you will fail in a TPK method if you do not run, and run fast. These areas are completely necessary for you to complete the adventure in a satisfactory method, unless you want to switch sides... :D That being said, talk to your DM. If s/he's read the adventure in preparation, your DM will know just how hosed you will be. Suggest to your DM to allow you to rebuild your characters. You will NEED divine spell casting as well as some major offensive arcane spell casting to survive. When I am a player, I love playing rogues. That being said, Arcane Trickster is an awesome way to include a sneaky arcane caster to the group. There is a PrC, I don't remember the name right now, that is an excellent combination of Rogue/Divine Caster in the Complete divine. These would at least balance your party a little bit. You won't have the meat sheild, but a group of rogues can work around that through proper planning. These won't dramatically alter your groups feel, but will give you a fighting chance. There are several areas in which you will excel during the adventure...but for the most part your group will be seriously hindered if not outright killed by lack of firepower and healing. I hope this helps.... at least a little.
Trundle 04-04-06, 03:07 PM	UMD wands of ghost hand and shivering touch... :P What book are these spells in? I don't see them in the SRD?
Tegemea 04-04-06, 03:11 PM	this sounds like a really interesting campaign. though i really hope your DM can modify that module to your party a little bit, which i'm sure can be done effectively. anyway. the dragon issue. you have analyzed it very well. but if that dragon has a chance to fly, it will. guaranteed, it will, because that is one of the biggest advantages a dragon has. Especially since the dragon will realize after the first breath weapon attempt that you guys are really good at defending against it. However, I think flight is your best option, too, assuming you have better maneuverability. You essentially have the capability to have three flighted units that can outmaneuver the dragon (i hope). The humans each are a unit to themselves, and the rest of the party on the carpet. check the rules, but i think the halflings should be able to ride the humans as flighted mounts, too. That way you'd spread your firepower out more. The idea would be to always stay within 30 feet of the dragon to get ranged flanking SA's, but stay out of the dragon's reach. If you are close to him in the air (and at different altitudes. keep somebody above, somebody below and to the side, and one on the same plane, or something), it will use up a lot of his air speed to get turned around to come at you again, and he should never get more than a single attack per round. if you also make sure each unit has a couple healing potions, you should be able to offset this. but that sort of plan would rely completely on your maneuverability and speed being good enough to pull it off, as well as your carpet being somehow acid-proofed (like you mentioned). Even then, i would have to work it out with mini's and the rulebooks to make sure, but in my head, it would be a legitimate way to avoid anyone getting the brunt of a full attack. As long as no-one lands right under him, he won't be able to pull a hover maneuver, because its a full-round action. oh, but there's snatch on the halflings... shoot. i don't know what to do about that one. anyway, there's another idea. it would be really fun if it worked.
LivingShadow 04-04-06, 04:34 PM	avoid melee with it at all costs remember you won't be able to sneak upp on it read Draconomicon Ch 3 really helpful feats for you and as a longshot Diplomacy ie:bribing, flattering or possibly bluff see halfling lore section of races of the wild Remember dragons are smart and can probiblly hear you planning from a fair distance and since i'm guessing it is a red dragon frost weapons or cold spells :plotting:
cambric 04-04-06, 05:22 PM	Thanks. Yeah, it's basically the party the DM told us to make. In fact, we were explicitly banned from making casters. And we were very well-suited to the challenges provided in the urban setting... But since he bought this module, I think we're going to have to get more and more creative about how to solve our problems. Which, hopefully will make for a fun game. =) :eek: And then he's moving you to Red Hand of Doom?? I really hope he's read that over well and realizes, as it was said by Sapper2219, you need the casters!! Unless he plans on adjusting it, a lot, you're screwed. Sorry...but yeah, you're screwed. (Again, if he adjusts it accordingly, you'll probably be ok...sure, yeah...) I'm sure he's a great DM, and as long as you're having fun, that's important...but wow...I wish you well. Cam
Sapper2219 04-04-06, 06:35 PM	please let us know how things go with you, and your party...hopefully your stories will help me while I'm running it. Sapper2219 p.p.s. For those of you suggesting diplomacy, and other non leathal methods of confronting said dragon/dragons.....those options will not work in this particular adventure.....If you want more details..and spoilers...please feel free to PM me....but they will not work in this situation.
Gondoras 04-05-06, 01:44 PM	I'm interested, too. I'm in a party where we'll be fighting a red dragon at a fairly early level.... My approach has been to take levels in Assassin for Invisibility, Improved Invisibility and the Death Strike portions. Sure, I won't be able to cast Improved Invisibility at an early level, but that Death Strike would be huge coming from an invisible enemy. Oh yeah, his hide skill will be pretty insane at the time as well. I don't think it'd be too far fetched for a character to cast invisibility right after entering the dragon's lair, move silently and study the dragon until you get up close and personal and wack him with a Death Strike. I don't believe dragons are immune to criticals, so there's your 3 round kill of a superstar......if it fails, however....begin to reroll your character. lol
LivingShadow 04-05-06, 01:57 PM	invisibility doesn't work on dragons they have blindsight just about the only way you can sneak up on one is taking the dragon stalker prestige class which is designed for that
seret 04-05-06, 02:39 PM	does blind sigth work when flying ? flying invis :P if not your screwed
Trundle 04-05-06, 03:30 PM	invisibility doesn't work on dragons they have blindsight Actually, they only have Blindsense, so we should still be able to sneak attack it. It will know we're there (sadly), but it still can't see us: Blindsense Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Derren S. 04-05-06, 03:40 PM	Not when your DM picks the feats for the dragons right. Blind-Fight is such a nice feat for dragons because of their blindsense. Still, even without the feat, blind sense is enough to foil any death attack from an assasin as he has to stay undetected.
Gondoras 04-05-06, 03:55 PM	Dang, those authors thought of everything, :D. Perhaps a Ranger could float some wooden arrows at the dragon to focus its attention to allow that Assassin to get in range without drawing attention....or you could just bluff a couple suckers into running around to draw the attention, but they'll probably become modified tator tots. Finding a method to one hit kill that bad boy is probably the best overall route. Wouldn't be all bad to have a necromancer that would be able to raise and control it after death, either.....but hopefully, he's a trusted member in the group that won't turn that dragon against you when you least expect it.....
runestar 04-05-06, 10:37 PM	Shivering touch is a spell from frostburn. It does 3d6 dex damage. Since dragons are notorious for crap dex(10), 1 or 2 will leave them paralysed(0 dex). Then just sneak attack it for all its worth... The only problem will be eschewing its sr. You may need some scrolls of lower resistance beforehand.
Derren S. 04-06-06, 03:08 AM	An other problem would be to get your DM to allow it as it is considered one of the top 5 most broken spells in D&D (and imo cheating when you use it).
LivingShadow 04-06-06, 02:02 PM	if you guys still have some fights before facing the dragon (I wouldn't know I haven't done this module before) try to avoid the creatures guarding the lair for they may alert the dragon giving him time to buff even if he has blindsense and not blindsight do you really think a dragon will be dumb enough to have his back turned? Seriously they are smart and get even smarter as they age just for goodness sake spread out
Trundle 04-06-06, 03:12 PM	if you guys still have some fights before facing the dragon (I wouldn't know I haven't done this module before) try to avoid the creatures guarding the lair for they may alert the dragon giving him time to buff even if he has blindsense and not blindsight do you really think a dragon will be dumb enough to have his back turned? Seriously they are smart and get even smarter as they age just for goodness sake spread out It doesn't matter how smart (well, INT, anyway -- WIS can certainly play a role in his spot checks) he is; if he can't see us, we get Sneak Attacks. It's not 2.0 anymore -- we don't need him to be turned around; we can Sneak Attack right to his face (in fact, with the absence of 'facing' rules in combat, it's pretty much assumed that all SA's are to someone's front).
cambric 04-06-06, 03:34 PM	It doesn't matter how smart (well, INT, anyway -- WIS can certainly play a role in his spot checks) he is; if he can't see us, we get Sneak Attacks. It's not 2.0 anymore -- we don't need him to be turned around; we can Sneak Attack right to his face (in fact, with the absence of 'facing' rules in combat, it's pretty much assumed that all SA's are to someone's front). True: but he still knows something is there...if it's a more aged one, they get spells and they will be prepared, they won't just sit there and let you pound on them. Also: Fear factor! I'm sure you'll do fine...but please, don't assume SA's are going to win you the day. Cam
Derren S. 04-06-06, 04:21 PM	I really wonder what you will do when you meat a undead dragon (I don't know if there is one in the module, just pointing out the possibility) or when a dragon uses a gemstone of fortification. Also, unless you fight in a cave you won't be able to flank a smart dragon. They have a so high fly speed that they can simply outfly you making flanking impossible. Also you have to hit the dragons first. Dragon + minor spells (mage armor/shield) + rogue bab (+ multiclassing + bloodlines) = only be able to hit with the first attack 50% of all times.
Trundle 04-06-06, 06:29 PM	I really wonder what you will do when you meat a undead dragon (I don't know if there is one in the module, just pointing out the possibility) or when a dragon uses a gemstone of fortification. Probably run like hell. The toughest undead we've had to fight so far are zombies, and that was dangerous even when we were 2-3 levels above the CR. Also, unless you fight in a cave you won't be able to flank a smart dragon. They have a so high fly speed that they can simply outfly you making flanking impossible. Well, they also have poor maneuverability. So we should have the advantage in terms of positioning. it could certainly fly faster than us, but, honestly, if it wants to stay at a range and we only have to deal with a breath weapon every 1d4 rounds, I think we're better off. Also you have to hit the dragons first. Dragon + minor spells (mage armor/shield) + rogue bab (+ multiclassing + bloodlines) = only be able to hit with the first attack 50% of all times. Hah -- I should be so lucky. Even without the minor spells, I think I can only hit the thing (assuming it's right out of the book and not souped up) on a 16+ at range (and 18+ if I choose to rapid shot, which seems like a better bet) and on a natural 20 in melee. But, hey, I wouldn't be asking for advice if I thought it would be a walk in the park. =)
Balor von Balorvitch 04-06-06, 07:34 PM	If you want to super sneak the dragon get some ethreal items. The dragon can't blind sense what is not there! and when it wears off you should all be whithin sneak attack range. Use the surprize round to hit him with everything you have then go ethreal again if need be and the ninja should have atleast 1 ghost strike.
primemover003 04-06-06, 08:57 PM	Just because it has poor manueverablility doesn't mean it won't strafe the hell out of you. Fly-by attack + reach + snatch = dead rogues. All it has to do is make long runs at you. No save touch attacks from wands are key. Magic missile, scorching ray, the orb or lesser orb spells.
LivingShadow 04-07-06, 02:20 PM	whatever you do try to keep its manuverablility down to a minimum try to fight in a cave with a low ceiling to keep it from flying that etheral idea isn't bad just go etheral imediatly after you get your attack into avoid retaliation also remember greens are very aggresive and may persue you if you run so have a plan to ge away without a chance of it following but try not to stay too long if you get away you can better prepare and it will take a while to heal completely
runestar 04-08-06, 09:28 AM	Dracoliches would arguable make your job easier. They have no con score, so you are already 50+ % there, since that chops off more than 1/2 its hp. The paralysis can be offset by freedom of movement, and with gravestrike, the rogue can still sneak attack just fine. Now the only problem is how to go about setting up such a scenario... :P
Dragonsnack 04-08-06, 04:53 PM	First of all is my out-of-game suggestion, that you ask your DM for some lee-way. See if you can change around the last level taken, or if you can have some encounters to get you up a new level before facing the dragon, and work the new level around potential threats in the Red Hand of Doom. You are mostly rogues, so see if there's someone around with items of Dragon Bane you can "acquire". I realize it's asking a lot for a DM to throw in a quest where you all level and traipse off with swords and arrows of green dragon slaying, but since he started out the game forcing you to be urban type characters and now is taking you into completely new territory he needs to cut you some slack or he will be badly screwing you over. My combat advice would be, try to lure the dragon into a tunnel; it won't be able to fly or wing buffet, you can send some of the group from behind and gain major flanking bonuses, ideally it will suffer attack penalties for cramped space. If you're confident you can survive its breath weapon hit it with a Wand of Grease a few times while peppering it with missile weapons. Have an escape route available, a 5 foot wide tunnel if possible. If you must fight it on neutral ground I'd try to take it over a city. Hire some mercenaries, especially try to get a wizard who can stop it from flying (I believe there's a spell now that negates a creature's flying - anyone?). A high level fighter and wizard would be great back-up, but seriously cut into your x.p. and treasure. Hire some first level mercenaries, especially archers, and make sure everyone looks as non-descript as possible, something to keep the dragon guessing which foe to attack. When it's on the ground hit it from every direction, maybe have the hired wizard (or a scroll) toss in some summon monsters, illusions or mirror images to make it waste attacks. Don't be afraid to cut and run. Have some safe-houses prepared, preferably near a butchery or tannery to keep it from tracking you by scent. If you have to take it on its home-ground... Try stealing its stuff while its out and leaving mocking messages to lure it out. You don't want to fight it in its lair! Also, it goes without saying, if the DM lets you buy magic items stock up on potions and (if you've got the UMD) wands to buff up the party. Bless, Calm emotions, Aid, anything to raise stats or resist elements, etc.
LivingShadow 04-09-06, 09:51 AM	I believe there's a spell now that negates a creature's flying - anyone? i believe it's called earthbind from Draconomicon also there are bane (dragon) weapons which would come in handy vs a dragon i forget if a green has any spells at that age but if it does remember the first it gets is suggestion