Ah, Half-Dragon Template. Thus, the problems with Racial Dice begin. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ah, Half-Dragon Template. Thus, the problems with Racial Dice begin. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Netmonmatt
07-11-06, 09:50 PM Well, my level 5 Human fighter just gained a Half-Dragon Gold template.

The thing is, all of his racial HD based abilities are pretty useless.
Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (if I awaken it), ect, all only have a DC of 12. (Dang +2 Con Mod.)

I really want to use these abilities to my advantage, but as things go, all my HD related abilites get negated. What do I do? :confused:
1337Ninja
07-11-06, 11:00 PM How does your level 5 character just 'gain' the half-dragon template? A time machine? :confused:
SoldierOfFortune187
07-11-06, 11:23 PM Ability Focus feat.

(Edit - inherited templates like this may only start to visibly manifest at this point in a character's life, explaining how they 'just gain' such abilities. roleplay wise, anyways.)
Alynn
07-12-06, 03:43 AM In my world, only evil dragons impose their dragon heritage on their half offspring (IE born half dragons), good dragons if they decide to tell their offspring that they are indeed a half dragon, are allowed to choose to gain the dragon powers, (thus beginning the savage progression).
Elemental
07-12-06, 06:59 PM The thing is, all of his racial HD based abilities are pretty useless.
Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (if I awaken it), ect, all only have a DC of 12. (Dang +2 Con Mod.)

I really want to use these abilities to my advantage, but as things go, all my HD related abilites get negated. What do I do? :confused:

Reading the SRD:

Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

There's no distinction drawn there between racial HD and class HD. Unless it specifies racial HD only (such as the increase in hit die type), then it will use your fighter HD to determine the total DC.
Grunj
07-12-06, 09:25 PM The template has a +4 level adjustment but it doesn't have hit dice. Either the character just gained four levels for ECL purposes or the character just sacrificed four class levels.
Mystyc
07-12-06, 11:49 PM The template has a +4 level adjustment but it doesn't have hit dice. Either the character just gained four levels for ECL purposes or the character just sacrificed four class levels.
Just +3, actually, but the point stands.
Jet Destro
07-12-06, 11:52 PM Well, my level 5 Human fighter just gained a Half-Dragon Gold template.

The thing is, all of his racial HD based abilities are pretty useless.
Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (if I awaken it), ect, all only have a DC of 12. (Dang +2 Con Mod.)

I really want to use these abilities to my advantage, but as things go, all my HD related abilites get negated. What do I do? :confused:

Wahhhhh? You dont like that +6 to str?
Anyways, The breath weapon is just an extra attack you can use to your advantage. With your new and improved stats and D12 Hit dice, you will be able to stand toe to toe melee with most anything. The breath weapon can be used as a area effect attack or just somthing to throw in there if you feel like it.
MerlintheTuna
07-13-06, 04:12 AM He doesn't get D12 hit die. Only racial HD increase, and even then not necessarily to D12s. Class HD are explicitly mentioned to not change. Also, the breath weapon states that the DC is based off of Racial HD, not total HD.

Those and the fact that wings are only granted to Large Half-Dragons for no particular reason are what screw the template for players.
runestar
07-13-06, 04:28 AM Screw it. The physical bonuses you get are well worth the +3LA, so don't bother about the crummy breath weapon. :)
hiryuu
07-13-06, 09:36 AM He doesn't get D12 hit die. Only racial HD increase, and even then not necessarily to D12s. Class HD are explicitly mentioned to not change. Also, the breath weapon states that the DC is based off of Racial HD, not total HD.

Those and the fact that wings are only granted to Large Half-Dragons for no particular reason are what screw the template for players.

Read it again. The breath weapon does not single out racial hit dice. It says "creature's hit dice." A creature's hit dice total is its racial hit dice plus any levels it has.

A few templates change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels, but most templates that change Hit Dice change only the creature’s original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged.

Note that both your race and class levels grant you Hit Dice. Note that the half-dragon entry singles out racial Hit Dice in only one place, otherwise it just uses the blanket "HIt Dice."
MerlintheTuna
07-13-06, 02:46 PM Special Attacks

A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon based on the dragon variety (see table), usable once per day. A half-dragon’s breath weapon deals 6d8 points of damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ half-dragon’s racial HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier) reduces damage by half.

I read it again. It still says Racial HD.
SoldierOfFortune187
07-13-06, 04:20 PM Hit Dice: Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.
Two statements. Racial hit dice and class hit dice are treated seperately.

Special Attacks: A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon based on the dragon variety (see the table below), usable once per day. A half-dragon’s breath weapon deals 6d8 points of damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 half-dragon’s racial HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier) reduces damage by half.
Racial hit dice addressed alone. No mention of class hit dice, no clause to include them.

Skills: A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.
Racial and class hit dice are again differentiated.

Based on these entries, racial hit dice does not take class hit dice into account for calculations.

Anything missed?
InterSilva
07-13-06, 07:11 PM The Half-Dragon template is a lot nicer for applying to NPCs or Monsters. I allow it, but people don't usually pick it unless they want the ability mods. For one more point of LA, I think the Half-Celestial is a much better inherited template. Wings, a nice spread of ability mods (everything gets a bonus, some abilities get more), GREAT spell-like abilities not dependant on racial hit dice, and spell resistance.

Plus you look like an angel.

This doesn't really help the discussion at hand much, but with the post before mine the discussion looks to be resolved anyway.

Much love for Half-Celestials here.
Netmonmatt
07-14-06, 05:57 AM Well, crap. This just affirms the fact that I would have been
alot better off with just my Gold Dragon bloodline.
hiryuu
07-16-06, 01:51 AM I apologize for bein' wrong, then. My SRD source is apparently lacking a few important bits. I won't trust the html SRD much anymore.... hrm.
Mystyc
07-16-06, 01:11 PM Well, crap. This just affirms the fact that I would have been
alot better off with just my Gold Dragon bloodline.
Hey, don't be sad. You just opened up a ton of new tactics. Check out the combination of Dragon Breath and Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Due to your natural weapons, you can also switch to a reach weapon and still threaten the area around you. You might even qualify for some spells, feats, or PrCs in the Draconomicon. Embrace your heritage!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Netmonmatt 07-11-06, 09:50 PM	Well, my level 5 Human fighter just gained a Half-Dragon Gold template. The thing is, all of his racial HD based abilities are pretty useless. Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (if I awaken it), ect, all only have a DC of 12. (Dang +2 Con Mod.) I really want to use these abilities to my advantage, but as things go, all my HD related abilites get negated. What do I do? :confused:
1337Ninja 07-11-06, 11:00 PM	How does your level 5 character just 'gain' the half-dragon template? A time machine? :confused:
SoldierOfFortune187 07-11-06, 11:23 PM	Ability Focus feat. (Edit - inherited templates like this may only start to visibly manifest at this point in a character's life, explaining how they 'just gain' such abilities. roleplay wise, anyways.)
Alynn 07-12-06, 03:43 AM	In my world, only evil dragons impose their dragon heritage on their half offspring (IE born half dragons), good dragons if they decide to tell their offspring that they are indeed a half dragon, are allowed to choose to gain the dragon powers, (thus beginning the savage progression).
Elemental 07-12-06, 06:59 PM	The thing is, all of his racial HD based abilities are pretty useless. Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (if I awaken it), ect, all only have a DC of 12. (Dang +2 Con Mod.) I really want to use these abilities to my advantage, but as things go, all my HD related abilites get negated. What do I do? :confused: Reading the SRD: Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). There's no distinction drawn there between racial HD and class HD. Unless it specifies racial HD only (such as the increase in hit die type), then it will use your fighter HD to determine the total DC.
Grunj 07-12-06, 09:25 PM	The template has a +4 level adjustment but it doesn't have hit dice. Either the character just gained four levels for ECL purposes or the character just sacrificed four class levels.
Mystyc 07-12-06, 11:49 PM	The template has a +4 level adjustment but it doesn't have hit dice. Either the character just gained four levels for ECL purposes or the character just sacrificed four class levels. Just +3, actually, but the point stands.
Jet Destro 07-12-06, 11:52 PM	Well, my level 5 Human fighter just gained a Half-Dragon Gold template. The thing is, all of his racial HD based abilities are pretty useless. Breath Weapon, Frightful Presence (if I awaken it), ect, all only have a DC of 12. (Dang +2 Con Mod.) I really want to use these abilities to my advantage, but as things go, all my HD related abilites get negated. What do I do? :confused: Wahhhhh? You dont like that +6 to str? Anyways, The breath weapon is just an extra attack you can use to your advantage. With your new and improved stats and D12 Hit dice, you will be able to stand toe to toe melee with most anything. The breath weapon can be used as a area effect attack or just somthing to throw in there if you feel like it.
MerlintheTuna 07-13-06, 04:12 AM	He doesn't get D12 hit die. Only racial HD increase, and even then not necessarily to D12s. Class HD are explicitly mentioned to not change. Also, the breath weapon states that the DC is based off of Racial HD, not total HD. Those and the fact that wings are only granted to Large Half-Dragons for no particular reason are what screw the template for players.
runestar 07-13-06, 04:28 AM	Screw it. The physical bonuses you get are well worth the +3LA, so don't bother about the crummy breath weapon. :)
hiryuu 07-13-06, 09:36 AM	He doesn't get D12 hit die. Only racial HD increase, and even then not necessarily to D12s. Class HD are explicitly mentioned to not change. Also, the breath weapon states that the DC is based off of Racial HD, not total HD. Those and the fact that wings are only granted to Large Half-Dragons for no particular reason are what screw the template for players. Read it again. The breath weapon does not single out racial hit dice. It says "creature's hit dice." A creature's hit dice total is its racial hit dice plus any levels it has. A few templates change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels, but most templates that change Hit Dice change only the creature’s original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged. Note that both your race and class levels grant you Hit Dice. Note that the half-dragon entry singles out racial Hit Dice in only one place, otherwise it just uses the blanket "HIt Dice."
MerlintheTuna 07-13-06, 02:46 PM	Special Attacks A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon based on the dragon variety (see table), usable once per day. A half-dragon’s breath weapon deals 6d8 points of damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ half-dragon’s racial HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier) reduces damage by half. I read it again. It still says Racial HD.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-13-06, 04:20 PM	Hit Dice: Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD. Two statements. Racial hit dice and class hit dice are treated seperately. Special Attacks: A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon based on the dragon variety (see the table below), usable once per day. A half-dragon’s breath weapon deals 6d8 points of damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 half-dragon’s racial HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier) reduces damage by half. Racial hit dice addressed alone. No mention of class hit dice, no clause to include them. Skills: A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class. Racial and class hit dice are again differentiated. Based on these entries, racial hit dice does not take class hit dice into account for calculations. Anything missed?
InterSilva 07-13-06, 07:11 PM	The Half-Dragon template is a lot nicer for applying to NPCs or Monsters. I allow it, but people don't usually pick it unless they want the ability mods. For one more point of LA, I think the Half-Celestial is a much better inherited template. Wings, a nice spread of ability mods (everything gets a bonus, some abilities get more), GREAT spell-like abilities not dependant on racial hit dice, and spell resistance. Plus you look like an angel. This doesn't really help the discussion at hand much, but with the post before mine the discussion looks to be resolved anyway. Much love for Half-Celestials here.
Netmonmatt 07-14-06, 05:57 AM	Well, crap. This just affirms the fact that I would have been alot better off with just my Gold Dragon bloodline.
hiryuu 07-16-06, 01:51 AM	I apologize for bein' wrong, then. My SRD source is apparently lacking a few important bits. I won't trust the html SRD much anymore.... hrm.
Mystyc 07-16-06, 01:11 PM	Well, crap. This just affirms the fact that I would have been alot better off with just my Gold Dragon bloodline. Hey, don't be sad. You just opened up a ton of new tactics. Check out the combination of Dragon Breath and Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Due to your natural weapons, you can also switch to a reach weapon and still threaten the area around you. You might even qualify for some spells, feats, or PrCs in the Draconomicon. Embrace your heritage!