Ahh! Help! I'm a bunny!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ahh! Help! I'm a bunny!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GaffeR
03-27-05, 09:41 AM Alright, first a little history...

I'm playing my beloved high level wizard, and him and the party are in a forest searchin for some wizard's tower. Anyways, we show up and the tower is demolished. The cleric has true seeing on and starts talking to this ancient red dragon (whom no one else can see). We message back and forth well enough for my wizard to try to cast true seeing as well. At this point, the dragon attempts to baleful polymorphs me, failing with my natural 20. He tries again, I fail both saves and turn into a bunny.

NOW! assuming the party survives the encounter with a red dragon, how are they to find and restore me? Seeing a red dragon breath weapon really freaked my bunny-self out, so i bounded into the forest.

My wizard had cast mind blank on himself in the morning, so they'll have to wait until the next day to attempt to scry for me.

I was thinkin that a wish or a miracle would clean things up nicely, but unfortunately i don't think we could find someone to perform the service, much less pay for it.

Would a true seeing +(greater) scrying work? That's the best alternative i've come up with so far. Any other ideas are greatly appreciated. oh... I should also mention that the dragon seemed to have an interest in taking me as a pet, so if he isn't killed he might be hunting for me too. :eek:

So please, help save my wizard!
Callista
03-27-05, 10:04 AM Yes, they'll have to wait till that spell runs out... then they can scry for you. A fellow spellcaster, even a rogue with UMD, ought be enough. Until then, make good use use that size bonus to Hide!
Vatras
03-27-05, 01:15 PM Bad wizard! Not have silent stilled spells on you!

Wizards should always have one or two such emergency spells memmed, preferably some form of dispel and an escape spell.
Lxarth
03-27-05, 01:26 PM Am I to understand that you rolled a NATURAL 20 on your save?

But doesn't that mean success?

Anyways idonno how to help sorry.
Drachasor
03-27-05, 01:55 PM Am I to understand that you rolled a NATURAL 20 on your save?

But doesn't that mean success?

Anyways idonno how to help sorry.

Baleful Polymorph was cast on him twice. He failed the second time.

-Drachasor
Heahengel
03-27-05, 02:26 PM Also, when it was cast on him the second time, he failed both saves, and so he now has the mind of a bunny as well. A silenced + stilled spell wouldn't help, as he has something like 2 Int. Does your DM expect you to RP a rabbit for a while? I agree with the others that you probably can't get around that Mind Blank for a while, but does your party have a ranger, or someone who can track? Preferably with an animal companion with scent (if not much game time has passed). That sounds like your best bet for being found quickly.
EvilVegan
03-27-05, 02:31 PM Quit Metagaming!

You're just a happy bunny now, so go eat the farmer's crops and enjoy!
Dreaming_in_the_void
03-28-05, 10:38 PM Bad wizard! Not have silent stilled spells on you!

Wizards should always have one or two such emergency spells memmed, preferably some form of dispel and an escape spell.

As has been mentioned, his Int dropped to 3. He can cast -7th level spells. A silenced, stilled spell memorized by a caster with the feat Eschew Materials would still be uncastable, no matter how well prepared he was. Really, only a contingency would save him here (not counting magic items).
Votan
03-28-05, 10:58 PM Quit Metagaming!

You're just a happy bunny now, so go eat the farmer's crops and enjoy!

It is not metagaming to try and puzzle out how to get a character out of a tough situation. It is perfectly reasonable to ask questions like "What woulod I know?" or "What can I do?".

Now there are extremes that one does not want to go to in trying to rescue a character but to ask the question is something I'd expect of any player who cared about his character. The same thing I'd expect if he failed a save and died -- asking about ressurection options is also something that I would expect him to do.
Greyseed
03-29-05, 12:37 AM It's like being feebleminded, but not quite as bad. You'd still have a decent wisdom. No bunny instincts, but you'd have your skills, just with new mods. (like a -4 or 5 on all int checks.) You wouldn't have much of a plan, but you'd be looking for your friends. You'd be cunning enough to stay away from things that would want to hurt you and still able to recognize, "Big mean thing", "Painful burning thing", "Happy helpful thing."
Heahengel
03-29-05, 10:22 AM He has a rabbits stats for Int, Wis and Cha. If I were DMing, I would say that his mind had been replaced by a rabbits, make the rabbit an NPC, and give him an NPC to play (or something) until the group found the rabbit.

Edit: Oops, I should have read the other thread first. You know this. I didn't realize that a rabbit would have that much Wis.
Ehlana
03-29-05, 03:25 PM I wish my pc could get turned into a bunny.
MrkGrismer
03-29-05, 04:57 PM Just so you know, once the rest of the group finds you all it takes is a dispel magic to put you to rights, polymorph is only permanent, not instantaneous.
was_fired
03-29-05, 08:40 PM The problem is finding him. Even if they scry you depending on if your DM interprets knows you (ie know you personally or know what you look like) you either have a -5 or +10 bonus to your will save. I mention this because as a rabit you would have no reason to intentionally fail your will save so they would have to beat it. Oh well hope he thinks of it as a -5 condition not a +10 one. :)
MrkGrismer
03-29-05, 10:11 PM No save for locate creature tho.
Iuris
03-30-05, 02:21 AM For solutions, the rabbit would have the same chances of survival as any other rabbit. Forget dragons, it's foxes and wolves you have to worry about. In the mean time, the rabbit, if role played, would run away from the dragon and hide.

The rabbit wouldn't run for miles and miles, just until he feels safe. Whether the rabbit has the "personality" of a wild rabbit or a domestic bunny would also matter. A wild rabbit would have a greater chance of survival, but would also be harder to catch. A domesticated bunny would be confused, though, like the escaped bunny that camped in our garden for three days, until he was caught by the neighbour.

Well, any competent Player group would make this a magnificent occasion for some funny quotes...
Imagine the wizard finding out he has been resurrected from a few fox droppings... or magine the poor wizard having dispel magic cast on him exactly while spending some HIGH quality time with, er, miss Rabbit...
Naeron
03-30-05, 06:56 AM Quit Metagaming!

You're just a happy bunny now, so go eat the farmer's crops and enjoy!

Quit supporting poor DM'ing. Absolutely nowhere does it state that failing the second save gives the person the mindset of the animal. They gain the mental ability scores but retain "class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities."

So all Feats and skills are retained and usable (potentially). So this bunny has the skills of the original wizard (including spellcraft and knowledge skills).
Lxarth
03-30-05, 12:32 PM But he is still an animal, with the Int of a Bunny...
Dauntless
03-30-05, 12:36 PM Quit supporting poor DM'ing. Absolutely nowhere does it state that failing the second save gives the person the mindset of the animal.

I guess this means I'm a poor DM, and so are the two I play with regularly, since that is how we all rule it.
snowlynx
03-30-05, 03:31 PM I think the best you can do now is look for your friends. (Even an int 2 creature knows friends from enemies.) Hopefully, your friends will also be looking for you; unfortunately, they're going to have to do most of the work to figure out you're you and reverse it.

If you have all the special abilities of a bunny, do you also have scent? Might as well use that to find your friends; even if you have no clue they might be able to save you, it's likely you'd rather be with them if you're in a section of the woods you're not familiar with.
GaffeR
03-30-05, 09:52 PM Thanks for the ideas, but the point is now moot.

Dm ruled that i have the mind of a bunny, and that headbands of intellect cannot be worn by said bunny. Also, I've apparently been transported to some sort of "pocket plane" and stuffed in a green bubble containment-field-type-thingy by some sort of entity. I can't be located by any means. Pretty good for a dragon who shouldn't even be able to cast 5th lvl spells yet and didn't point any wands/rods/staffs at me. Avg party lvl: 15.

But joy! the party might be able to rescue me if some precise series of events occurs (which it won't) and they think things through carefully (which they don't). *sigh* I get the feeling (mostly because the dm expressed his glee) that he's a little too happy that my smart, well played wizard is gone.
Votan
03-30-05, 10:37 PM Thanks for the ideas, but the point is now moot.

Dm ruled that i have the mind of a bunny, and that headbands of intellect cannot be worn by said bunny. Also, I've apparently been transported to some sort of "pocket plane" and stuffed in a green bubble containment-field-type-thingy by some sort of entity. I can't be located by any means. Pretty good for a dragon who shouldn't even be able to cast 5th lvl spells yet and didn't point any wands/rods/staffs at me. Avg party lvl: 15.

Tough break.

It is axiomatic that the DM can destroy any player if he or she so chooses. I am sad that you lost your wizard (and the containment field means that there is either a neat plot or a decision to kill) but think of it as an opportunity to create a new and interesting character. There can be advantages to building a character that starts at high levels.

I recommend visiting the character optimzation boards to create a monster. :)
roguebfl
03-30-05, 10:47 PM I recommend visiting the character optimzation boards to create a monster. :)

yep those board Turned "Ms Kitty" from a cool concept that would have been player even if suboptimal, into a Very scary http://home.comcast.net/%7Erogue-bfl/smiles/katfight.gif

As Baneful Polymorph allows for the retention of skills and feats, thats say to me you retains personality. but the "mind stats" change deftly give you a bunny outlook.

as a rule of thumb I use is if a Magical effect leaves their personality in control I leave the character in the hands of the PC.

IE Charm person in player hands
Domination DM's hand.
Szat
03-30-05, 11:04 PM The player in question *points above to GaffeR* thinks that the dragon is a certain age category and also believes that his character is lost to the ages forever. Both of these are incorrect assumptions on the characters part.
Votan
03-30-05, 11:28 PM The player in question *points above to GaffeR* thinks that the dragon is a certain age category and also believes that his character is lost to the ages forever. Both of these are incorrect assumptions on the characters part.

Well, fair enough. I'm pretty sensitive to DMs putting a player into a no-win situation (if I wanted depressing I would jsut look around at real life) but what can look like screwing players can also be the beginning of a plot device.
Szat
03-31-05, 05:05 AM I completely agree. I wouldn't have devoted a WHOLE spell and encounter just to off ONE character. I'm not the vicious!
Naeron
03-31-05, 10:22 AM I guess this means I'm a poor DM, and so are the two I play with regularly, since that is how we all rule it.

I have to say yes I'm afraid. The spell description is very specific about what is lost if the second save is failed: "the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own"

You gain the scores of the new form not the mind and you do not lose any memories. It then clearly specifies what is retained "It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities."

So our putative 11th level Wizard retains his 11d4 Hit Dice and his +5 BAB, he also retains all his feats and skill ranks (note that by the RAW an 11th level bunny Monk who failed the second save would retain their increased unarmed strike damage is it is not ex, su or sp). The secondary effects of Baleful Polymorph should be considered as more akin to ability loss than a mental transformation.
Two_Piece
03-31-05, 12:06 PM A bunny, eh?

Well, I agree with EvilVegan. You should enjoy being your cute, furry self. Example:

DM: You hear the far off screams off village people, then the flapping of huge wings. Make a spot check, PC1.
PC1: (rolls) I got a 25. Is that good enough?
DM: Yes, about 100 feet away, you see a huge dragon flying towards you. What do you do?
You: I'll continue to nibble on my carrot... :P

Two_Piece
Szat
03-31-05, 06:03 PM Naeron, this thread was meant to look at RAI. Additionally, it seems by your understanding that stats only attribute to the skill/saving throw modifier for your character sheet.

If the wizard's Int has dropped from 26 to 1..............that's a sizeable more significant change than one or two points of Int drain. What kind of effect does that have on a characters mind. What stat represents memory, your personality etc. etc.
roguebfl
03-31-05, 06:30 PM What stat your personality etc. etc.
None. you personality is independent of your stats, you Stats do effect how skilled you are at certain parts (int reasoning, wisdom "common sense" Cha, you ability to interact with others). if any the you aligment is closer to mechanily repsreting your personallty than any of your stats.
Szat
04-01-05, 01:20 AM Good thing his alignment changes to match his new form. ;)
Naeron
04-01-05, 06:53 AM Naeron, this thread was meant to look at RAI. Additionally, it seems by your understanding that stats only attribute to the skill/saving throw modifier for your character sheet.

If the wizard's Int has dropped from 26 to 1..............that's a sizeable more significant change than one or two points of Int drain. What kind of effect does that have on a characters mind. What stat represents memory, your personality etc. etc.

But not much more serious than a Feeblemind spell. The simple fact is that Baleful Polymorph makes absolutely no mention of the target taking on the mindset and instincts of the animal, only their ability scores. Thus the target does not become a rabbit mentally, they become a Wizard whose mind is crammed into a container too small to let it operate at its normal level.

There is no ability score for memory or personality (although CHA does encompass force of personality), "Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons." so suffering a massive INT drop from Baleful polymorph affects learning and reasoning ability not memory (in the sense of possessing the memories rather than applying them). By the rules it has the immediate and logical effect of making all INT based operations exceedingly difficult to perform - but not impossible.

A character losing large amounts of INT and Wisdom should lose the ability to reason and suffer reduced willpower, common sense, perception and intuition. This does not necessitate a loss of memory or a radical change in underlying personality.
Keenath
04-01-05, 11:58 AM It doesn't explicitly say that you gain the animal's instincts, etc, but the fact that your alignment changes suggests it, doesn't it? If you INT drops that low, you now have essentially no ability to remember or process information and your alignment changes to match the form -- what does that leave you with except animal instinct?

Edit: By the way, rabbits have INT 2, not INT 1. All warm-blooded creatures get 2 INT, even rats, bats, and birds. Only reptiles, fish, and cephalopods get the INT 1 rating.
roguebfl
04-01-05, 01:26 PM It doesn't explicitly say that you gain the animal's instincts, etc, but the fact that your alignment changes suggests it, doesn't it? If you INT drops that low, you now have essentially no ability to remember or process information and your alignment changes to match the form -- what does that leave you with except animal instinct?

The whe does it explact state you get to keep thind like Spellcraft. ? admiti you not as good as you where before (now being Int 2) But I to took on the mind set of the Bunny, why non Bunnies and Burrows bunny is gong to have any consept of what spell craft is?
Szat
04-01-05, 06:31 PM I missed the 2 Int thing, I apologize. The biggest issue for me is that he's not being drained of his current stats. It's not feeblemind or something like that, he's GETTING NEW stats. So what represents a characters memories? None of the scores do this? Seems kind of odd to me that a major function of the brain can't be affected by spells.

The thing I don't get is that on his second failed save he loses the ability to cast spells.....meaning he forgot them...... :confused: So what's the deal he can forget his spells and his ability to cast spells but he doesn't lose any memories?

The big kicker for me is that almost EVERYTHING about the charcter that makes the character what he is CHANGES. His alignment, his ability scores, his size, his type, his class. That's just my take on it though
JusticeZero
04-02-05, 11:16 AM His class does not change, nor does he forget his spells. He cannot cast the spells, but he has them - akin to a figure skater with broken legs. They can remember the skills, but they can't perform them.
Furthermore, there ARE spells which alter the target's personality. They describe exactly what they do. This spell is not described as having those effects, and so it doesn't, just like how Color Spray lacks a description of doing damage, so doesn't.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GaffeR 03-27-05, 09:41 AM	Alright, first a little history... I'm playing my beloved high level wizard, and him and the party are in a forest searchin for some wizard's tower. Anyways, we show up and the tower is demolished. The cleric has true seeing on and starts talking to this ancient red dragon (whom no one else can see). We message back and forth well enough for my wizard to try to cast true seeing as well. At this point, the dragon attempts to baleful polymorphs me, failing with my natural 20. He tries again, I fail both saves and turn into a bunny. NOW! assuming the party survives the encounter with a red dragon, how are they to find and restore me? Seeing a red dragon breath weapon really freaked my bunny-self out, so i bounded into the forest. My wizard had cast mind blank on himself in the morning, so they'll have to wait until the next day to attempt to scry for me. I was thinkin that a wish or a miracle would clean things up nicely, but unfortunately i don't think we could find someone to perform the service, much less pay for it. Would a true seeing +(greater) scrying work? That's the best alternative i've come up with so far. Any other ideas are greatly appreciated. oh... I should also mention that the dragon seemed to have an interest in taking me as a pet, so if he isn't killed he might be hunting for me too. :eek: So please, help save my wizard!
Callista 03-27-05, 10:04 AM	Yes, they'll have to wait till that spell runs out... then they can scry for you. A fellow spellcaster, even a rogue with UMD, ought be enough. Until then, make good use use that size bonus to Hide!
Vatras 03-27-05, 01:15 PM	Bad wizard! Not have silent stilled spells on you! Wizards should always have one or two such emergency spells memmed, preferably some form of dispel and an escape spell.
Lxarth 03-27-05, 01:26 PM	Am I to understand that you rolled a NATURAL 20 on your save? But doesn't that mean success? Anyways idonno how to help sorry.
Drachasor 03-27-05, 01:55 PM	Am I to understand that you rolled a NATURAL 20 on your save? But doesn't that mean success? Anyways idonno how to help sorry. Baleful Polymorph was cast on him twice. He failed the second time. -Drachasor
Heahengel 03-27-05, 02:26 PM	Also, when it was cast on him the second time, he failed both saves, and so he now has the mind of a bunny as well. A silenced + stilled spell wouldn't help, as he has something like 2 Int. Does your DM expect you to RP a rabbit for a while? I agree with the others that you probably can't get around that Mind Blank for a while, but does your party have a ranger, or someone who can track? Preferably with an animal companion with scent (if not much game time has passed). That sounds like your best bet for being found quickly.
EvilVegan 03-27-05, 02:31 PM	Quit Metagaming! You're just a happy bunny now, so go eat the farmer's crops and enjoy!
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-28-05, 10:38 PM	Bad wizard! Not have silent stilled spells on you! Wizards should always have one or two such emergency spells memmed, preferably some form of dispel and an escape spell. As has been mentioned, his Int dropped to 3. He can cast -7th level spells. A silenced, stilled spell memorized by a caster with the feat Eschew Materials would still be uncastable, no matter how well prepared he was. Really, only a contingency would save him here (not counting magic items).
Votan 03-28-05, 10:58 PM	Quit Metagaming! You're just a happy bunny now, so go eat the farmer's crops and enjoy! It is not metagaming to try and puzzle out how to get a character out of a tough situation. It is perfectly reasonable to ask questions like "What woulod I know?" or "What can I do?". Now there are extremes that one does not want to go to in trying to rescue a character but to ask the question is something I'd expect of any player who cared about his character. The same thing I'd expect if he failed a save and died -- asking about ressurection options is also something that I would expect him to do.
Greyseed 03-29-05, 12:37 AM	It's like being feebleminded, but not quite as bad. You'd still have a decent wisdom. No bunny instincts, but you'd have your skills, just with new mods. (like a -4 or 5 on all int checks.) You wouldn't have much of a plan, but you'd be looking for your friends. You'd be cunning enough to stay away from things that would want to hurt you and still able to recognize, "Big mean thing", "Painful burning thing", "Happy helpful thing."
Heahengel 03-29-05, 10:22 AM	He has a rabbits stats for Int, Wis and Cha. If I were DMing, I would say that his mind had been replaced by a rabbits, make the rabbit an NPC, and give him an NPC to play (or something) until the group found the rabbit. Edit: Oops, I should have read the other thread first. You know this. I didn't realize that a rabbit would have that much Wis.
Ehlana 03-29-05, 03:25 PM	I wish my pc could get turned into a bunny.
MrkGrismer 03-29-05, 04:57 PM	Just so you know, once the rest of the group finds you all it takes is a dispel magic to put you to rights, polymorph is only permanent, not instantaneous.
was_fired 03-29-05, 08:40 PM	The problem is finding him. Even if they scry you depending on if your DM interprets knows you (ie know you personally or know what you look like) you either have a -5 or +10 bonus to your will save. I mention this because as a rabit you would have no reason to intentionally fail your will save so they would have to beat it. Oh well hope he thinks of it as a -5 condition not a +10 one. :)
MrkGrismer 03-29-05, 10:11 PM	No save for locate creature tho.
Iuris 03-30-05, 02:21 AM	For solutions, the rabbit would have the same chances of survival as any other rabbit. Forget dragons, it's foxes and wolves you have to worry about. In the mean time, the rabbit, if role played, would run away from the dragon and hide. The rabbit wouldn't run for miles and miles, just until he feels safe. Whether the rabbit has the "personality" of a wild rabbit or a domestic bunny would also matter. A wild rabbit would have a greater chance of survival, but would also be harder to catch. A domesticated bunny would be confused, though, like the escaped bunny that camped in our garden for three days, until he was caught by the neighbour. Well, any competent Player group would make this a magnificent occasion for some funny quotes... Imagine the wizard finding out he has been resurrected from a few fox droppings... or magine the poor wizard having dispel magic cast on him exactly while spending some HIGH quality time with, er, miss Rabbit...
Naeron 03-30-05, 06:56 AM	Quit Metagaming! You're just a happy bunny now, so go eat the farmer's crops and enjoy! Quit supporting poor DM'ing. Absolutely nowhere does it state that failing the second save gives the person the mindset of the animal. They gain the mental ability scores but retain "class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities." So all Feats and skills are retained and usable (potentially). So this bunny has the skills of the original wizard (including spellcraft and knowledge skills).
Lxarth 03-30-05, 12:32 PM	But he is still an animal, with the Int of a Bunny...
Dauntless 03-30-05, 12:36 PM	Quit supporting poor DM'ing. Absolutely nowhere does it state that failing the second save gives the person the mindset of the animal. I guess this means I'm a poor DM, and so are the two I play with regularly, since that is how we all rule it.
snowlynx 03-30-05, 03:31 PM	I think the best you can do now is look for your friends. (Even an int 2 creature knows friends from enemies.) Hopefully, your friends will also be looking for you; unfortunately, they're going to have to do most of the work to figure out you're you and reverse it. If you have all the special abilities of a bunny, do you also have scent? Might as well use that to find your friends; even if you have no clue they might be able to save you, it's likely you'd rather be with them if you're in a section of the woods you're not familiar with.
GaffeR 03-30-05, 09:52 PM	Thanks for the ideas, but the point is now moot. Dm ruled that i have the mind of a bunny, and that headbands of intellect cannot be worn by said bunny. Also, I've apparently been transported to some sort of "pocket plane" and stuffed in a green bubble containment-field-type-thingy by some sort of entity. I can't be located by any means. Pretty good for a dragon who shouldn't even be able to cast 5th lvl spells yet and didn't point any wands/rods/staffs at me. Avg party lvl: 15. But joy! the party might be able to rescue me if some precise series of events occurs (which it won't) and they think things through carefully (which they don't). sigh I get the feeling (mostly because the dm expressed his glee) that he's a little too happy that my smart, well played wizard is gone.
Votan 03-30-05, 10:37 PM	Thanks for the ideas, but the point is now moot. Dm ruled that i have the mind of a bunny, and that headbands of intellect cannot be worn by said bunny. Also, I've apparently been transported to some sort of "pocket plane" and stuffed in a green bubble containment-field-type-thingy by some sort of entity. I can't be located by any means. Pretty good for a dragon who shouldn't even be able to cast 5th lvl spells yet and didn't point any wands/rods/staffs at me. Avg party lvl: 15. Tough break. It is axiomatic that the DM can destroy any player if he or she so chooses. I am sad that you lost your wizard (and the containment field means that there is either a neat plot or a decision to kill) but think of it as an opportunity to create a new and interesting character. There can be advantages to building a character that starts at high levels. I recommend visiting the character optimzation boards to create a monster. :)
roguebfl 03-30-05, 10:47 PM	I recommend visiting the character optimzation boards to create a monster. :) yep those board Turned "Ms Kitty" from a cool concept that would have been player even if suboptimal, into a Very scary http://home.comcast.net/%7Erogue-bfl/smiles/katfight.gif As Baneful Polymorph allows for the retention of skills and feats, thats say to me you retains personality. but the "mind stats" change deftly give you a bunny outlook. as a rule of thumb I use is if a Magical effect leaves their personality in control I leave the character in the hands of the PC. IE Charm person in player hands Domination DM's hand.
Szat 03-30-05, 11:04 PM	The player in question points above to GaffeR thinks that the dragon is a certain age category and also believes that his character is lost to the ages forever. Both of these are incorrect assumptions on the characters part.
Votan 03-30-05, 11:28 PM	The player in question points above to GaffeR thinks that the dragon is a certain age category and also believes that his character is lost to the ages forever. Both of these are incorrect assumptions on the characters part. Well, fair enough. I'm pretty sensitive to DMs putting a player into a no-win situation (if I wanted depressing I would jsut look around at real life) but what can look like screwing players can also be the beginning of a plot device.
Szat 03-31-05, 05:05 AM	I completely agree. I wouldn't have devoted a WHOLE spell and encounter just to off ONE character. I'm not the vicious!
Naeron 03-31-05, 10:22 AM	I guess this means I'm a poor DM, and so are the two I play with regularly, since that is how we all rule it. I have to say yes I'm afraid. The spell description is very specific about what is lost if the second save is failed: "the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own" You gain the scores of the new form not the mind and you do not lose any memories. It then clearly specifies what is retained "It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities." So our putative 11th level Wizard retains his 11d4 Hit Dice and his +5 BAB, he also retains all his feats and skill ranks (note that by the RAW an 11th level bunny Monk who failed the second save would retain their increased unarmed strike damage is it is not ex, su or sp). The secondary effects of Baleful Polymorph should be considered as more akin to ability loss than a mental transformation.
Two_Piece 03-31-05, 12:06 PM	A bunny, eh? Well, I agree with EvilVegan. You should enjoy being your cute, furry self. Example: DM: You hear the far off screams off village people, then the flapping of huge wings. Make a spot check, PC1. PC1: (rolls) I got a 25. Is that good enough? DM: Yes, about 100 feet away, you see a huge dragon flying towards you. What do you do? You: I'll continue to nibble on my carrot... :P Two_Piece
Szat 03-31-05, 06:03 PM	Naeron, this thread was meant to look at RAI. Additionally, it seems by your understanding that stats only attribute to the skill/saving throw modifier for your character sheet. If the wizard's Int has dropped from 26 to 1..............that's a sizeable more significant change than one or two points of Int drain. What kind of effect does that have on a characters mind. What stat represents memory, your personality etc. etc.
roguebfl 03-31-05, 06:30 PM	What stat your personality etc. etc. None. you personality is independent of your stats, you Stats do effect how skilled you are at certain parts (int reasoning, wisdom "common sense" Cha, you ability to interact with others). if any the you aligment is closer to mechanily repsreting your personallty than any of your stats.
Szat 04-01-05, 01:20 AM	Good thing his alignment changes to match his new form. ;)
Naeron 04-01-05, 06:53 AM	Naeron, this thread was meant to look at RAI. Additionally, it seems by your understanding that stats only attribute to the skill/saving throw modifier for your character sheet. If the wizard's Int has dropped from 26 to 1..............that's a sizeable more significant change than one or two points of Int drain. What kind of effect does that have on a characters mind. What stat represents memory, your personality etc. etc. But not much more serious than a Feeblemind spell. The simple fact is that Baleful Polymorph makes absolutely no mention of the target taking on the mindset and instincts of the animal, only their ability scores. Thus the target does not become a rabbit mentally, they become a Wizard whose mind is crammed into a container too small to let it operate at its normal level. There is no ability score for memory or personality (although CHA does encompass force of personality), "Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons." so suffering a massive INT drop from Baleful polymorph affects learning and reasoning ability not memory (in the sense of possessing the memories rather than applying them). By the rules it has the immediate and logical effect of making all INT based operations exceedingly difficult to perform - but not impossible. A character losing large amounts of INT and Wisdom should lose the ability to reason and suffer reduced willpower, common sense, perception and intuition. This does not necessitate a loss of memory or a radical change in underlying personality.
Keenath 04-01-05, 11:58 AM	It doesn't explicitly say that you gain the animal's instincts, etc, but the fact that your alignment changes suggests it, doesn't it? If you INT drops that low, you now have essentially no ability to remember or process information and your alignment changes to match the form -- what does that leave you with except animal instinct? Edit: By the way, rabbits have INT 2, not INT 1. All warm-blooded creatures get 2 INT, even rats, bats, and birds. Only reptiles, fish, and cephalopods get the INT 1 rating.
roguebfl 04-01-05, 01:26 PM	It doesn't explicitly say that you gain the animal's instincts, etc, but the fact that your alignment changes suggests it, doesn't it? If you INT drops that low, you now have essentially no ability to remember or process information and your alignment changes to match the form -- what does that leave you with except animal instinct? The whe does it explact state you get to keep thind like Spellcraft. ? admiti you not as good as you where before (now being Int 2) But I to took on the mind set of the Bunny, why non Bunnies and Burrows bunny is gong to have any consept of what spell craft is?
Szat 04-01-05, 06:31 PM	I missed the 2 Int thing, I apologize. The biggest issue for me is that he's not being drained of his current stats. It's not feeblemind or something like that, he's GETTING NEW stats. So what represents a characters memories? None of the scores do this? Seems kind of odd to me that a major function of the brain can't be affected by spells. The thing I don't get is that on his second failed save he loses the ability to cast spells.....meaning he forgot them...... :confused: So what's the deal he can forget his spells and his ability to cast spells but he doesn't lose any memories? The big kicker for me is that almost EVERYTHING about the charcter that makes the character what he is CHANGES. His alignment, his ability scores, his size, his type, his class. That's just my take on it though
JusticeZero 04-02-05, 11:16 AM	His class does not change, nor does he forget his spells. He cannot cast the spells, but he has them - akin to a figure skater with broken legs. They can remember the skills, but they can't perform them. Furthermore, there ARE spells which alter the target's personality. They describe exactly what they do. This spell is not described as having those effects, and so it doesn't, just like how Color Spray lacks a description of doing damage, so doesn't.