Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knight9910 01-13-07, 08:26 PM	In my current SL we have two DMs. One is a story DM, who was the GM back when the SL was an FFRP and knows next to nothing about DnD. The other is the rules DM who's played DnD for almost a decade and knows the rules inside and out. The problem? Our story DM has crazy authority issues and constantly makes horrible rules decisions and refuses to accept the rules DM's guidance. Aside from a few things (random level 12s, 8s, and 35s appearing as PCs in a level 4 game) it's never really presented an issue until a couple nights ago... One of her characters was being kidnapped as the plot hook for the next mission. (She agreed to this.) The villain grabs her tiny fairy who immediately starts trying to fling spells. When we tell her she can't cast the spells she's casting because she's grappled she declares "Yes, I can because my spells don't use components." WHAT?! Let me explain. She didn't just mean she had eschew materials. She meant that she didn't use ANY components EVER. As in, she wanted all of her spells to have a permanent still spell and silent spell function without metamagic. As in, she wanted to be able to cast True Resurrection for FREE. When I tried to explain why that was way wrong she immediately went into full drama mode and started threatening to shut the SL down. How can I explain to her that the things she's doing are not little RP things but massive potential game-wreckers without her getting ****** off?
Ryusage 01-13-07, 08:37 PM	Sigh... Calmly explain to her that if eschew materials, still spell and silent spell were not effective, they would not be feats. Then calmly show her the page in the PHB with True Resurrection, pointing out that without the cost, the spell is much more powerful, too powerful for that level. If that doesn't work, bring this to the attention of the other DM. See if he has the same viewpoint as you do, and if so, confront the "story DM" together. Failing that, find a new group. If this person does not wish to play by the rules, she shouldn't be playing a game with a 300-page rulebook.
Fireclave 01-13-07, 10:56 PM	Repeat after me: "Well, lil' missy. You ain't in Kansas anymore. This is Rome. And we *point thumb to self for dramatic effect*...we are the Romans. You do as we do, and we won't have any trouble." Seriously though. You are going to have to explain to her that DnD is not as loose as a free form RPG. When you start playing D&D, you enter a non-verbal agreement to (more or less) follow the rules. If you don't follow those rules, you're not playing D&D. You're playing some other RPG. And while that might be okay for her, it's not fair to your players who came to play D&D. It's like she's playing baseball when she tells her players to bring their football gear. Rules are a good thing. The provide consistency between all of the many possible elements in the story. They help you tell how power, or strong, or able somebody or something is. They help you regulate success or failure. And most importantly, they help you tell an interesting story while still leaving elements up to chance. And last, it is not fair to threaten to shut down the storyline simply because she doesn't want to deal with the rules she agreed to play by. Granted, navigating the rules can be daunting for a first timer. But the hard truth is that it's necessary if she wishes to run a D&D game. But if she gives the game a chance, I'm sure she won't be disappointed. And if she has any questions, comments, or concerns, point her to these boards. We all would be happy to help.
TheChilliGod 01-13-07, 11:12 PM	Question. Was the Story DM, perhaps, referring to Spell-Like Abilities, of which faeries are usually well-known for? Because, unlike spells, spell-like abilities do not require components. Ever. Just sayin'.
Knight9910 01-14-07, 02:55 AM	No...she's some kind of...half-fey sorceress...or something. I don't know what the characters is, honestly. ((EDIT: Yeah. Half-Fey Sorceror 5. Like I said, level 4 game, but people have levelled up a bit since then.)) Basically, she allowed her FFRPG to become DnD, according to her, on the grounds that the DnD rules would not interfere with RP. Which is okay, except she ends up just using it as an excuse to break any rule she wants and threaten people if they disagree. What I want is a way to show her that we're NOT trying to limit her RP freedom, we're just trying to prevent huge, game-wrecking rules-breaks.
Skrymir 01-14-07, 03:23 AM	If the DM breaks rules for no good reason (and a newcomer should not break rules anyway - breaking rules is something for practiced DMs) the game is no fun. If he allows no criticism though being new to d&d, it's a sign of stupidity... when using a machine at work I first read how it works and don't assume the tolerance will be like some other machine standing around there just to ruin what I was working with. d&d is like this: There are tolerances but don't exceed them. When working in nano, still spell, silent spell and true ressurection for free are like a mile off set. If he can't understand this, let him stop the SL and read a book, that's more fun than arguing. Only a bad DM leads a game in a way the Players don't like it and just keeps going on. not practiced rule-breaking = no fun threatening the players = no fun d&d = fun easy conclusion, start playing d&d
User5127 01-14-07, 08:14 AM	if she still refuses to listen then you'll jsut have to show her how game breaking the rules can be... seriously. Hopefully after a debacle like that she'll see why there are rules in dnd and why things are done the way they are. and who cares if she shuts it down. you have a rules DM, let him dm stuff.
captain_ludicrous 01-14-07, 03:28 PM	There are obviously some communication issues here. A) DnD is a game. The rules are there so that everyone can play the same game. But rules were made to be broken... B) This conflict doesn't need you to get involved with it. The story DM needs to work more with the rules DM so that no feelings get hurt next time this happens. C) If you can't try to find some way to talk this out without more arguments I suggest you try to leave the campaign on the backburner for a while. If you do the story DM might see how things are done from a different angle and understand the game better. No one ever said that you need to ruin friendships over this.
FeceMan 01-14-07, 04:40 PM	As another poster asked: Was she trying to use her SLAs? If not, you should do two things. 1. Tell me what SL means. 2. Find a different group, since both DMs seem retarded. If you're unwilling to find a new group, you do the following: 1. Tell me what SL is. I assume it's some program that allows one to play D&D over the Internet. 2. Advice pending.
Lunar_Shadow 01-14-07, 04:55 PM	I believe SL stands for story line, which I am assuming is what he is calling campaigns.
IceFractal 01-14-07, 05:43 PM	Well, would she like it if, when she was DMing, this happened? DM: The tomb guardians have blocked your path. PC: I step into the Astral plane, walk past them, and then step back, then I sneak up behind them and shunt them into the Abyss. DM: You can't do that. PC: Yes I can, I've decided that my character has the "plane-walk" ability and can shift planes at will, plus send people into planes by touching them. I doubt it. And that's why we have rules. And why, if you have a DMPC, you'd better not give them special powers, lest the game become a farce. So maybe just explain that to her. Or explain by doing it during a game, but that's rather more disruptive - see if reason works first.
Murrdox 01-14-07, 06:00 PM	I don't know if I'm completely understanding this. Is this the DM or a player? You're saying the DM is trying to have a fairy who is being kidnapped as part of a plot point cast spells when the fairy shouldn't normally be able to. Who is playing the fairy? Is this an NPC, or a PC that the DM is also playing? If it's an NPC, who the DM is just having cast spells left and right in order to further the plot, then I say it really isn't a problem, unless she's killing players. Occasionally, as far as my group is concerned, the DM is allowed to break rules and simply say "it just happens that way", usually to lend a cinematic quality to the event. For example, a couple of sessions ago, our group assaulted a Red Wizard enclave which was being constructed. Our Paladin charged at the Red Wizard with a very powerful magical sword that we'd found in our previous adventure. The DM said that as soon as the Paladin struck the wizard with the sword, the sword shattered, producing a massive detonation, which killed both the Red Wizard and the Paladin. There's no such rule. NO way out of the books you can come up with that. Magic Items don't just blow up. However, the player had secretly told the DM that he didn't like his character, he wanted to make a new one, and asked that his character be killed off. The DM did so, in a pretty spectacular way. I can't tell from your description if your DM is trying to create cinematic moments, and ignoring the rules in those situations, or if she's just forgetting rules whenever she feels like it.
Hochiu 01-14-07, 06:42 PM	Tell her she's an idiot. Because she quite obviously is.
Dontan 01-14-07, 07:17 PM	Use this (http://www.freefilehosting.org/public/29491/steve.pdf) guide if they are a player. If they are a DM, shoot them with a hammer gun.
fatal error 01-14-07, 09:51 PM	Sounds like maybe you'd all be happier if the Rules DM just ran the entire show.
danielinthewolvesden 01-15-07, 12:18 AM	Actually, Eschew materials is such a weak feat, that I allow it to Sorc's for free. But that only replaces minor, cheap materials. As for the problem here, sit down with her and talk this out like adults.
Yokomohoyo 01-15-07, 01:38 AM	Actualy let her play the way she sees fit... She is the DM after all... Just play by her rules and if she says that enchew matireals is soo over powered then enjoy it and show her the errors in her ways... start casting major spells that will unbalance the game big time ^_^ soon she will understand what a major mistake she has done...
DarkKitsune 01-15-07, 08:56 AM	Actually, it seems she's breaking two of the more important 'rules' of freeform RP with that action (at least, insofar as I've been introduced to them), as well; being (a) reneging on an agreed-upon course for the plot, and (b) exhibiting powerful abilities that weren't clearly defined in the character's writup (ie. the character sheet for tabletop RPs). At any rate, I would explain to her that the rules in the rulebooks are the agreed-upon standards for the game, and if people don't follow them, the game will go to hell in a handbasket. Same thing as what happens when people ignore the code of conduct in a freeform RP. The rules are D&D's 'code of conduct', in a sense.
Cold Napalm 01-15-07, 01:43 PM	Okay...she's not even playing FF RPG. I HATE FF RPG since it is anything but free form, but whatever. She's playing This is my story and your all just here to watch my greatness. Basically, she's a drama queen. Tell her to either play by the rules or YOU walk. This is why I hate even playing D&D with the FF RPGers, much less having them run a game.
a_psh 01-15-07, 10:47 PM	Well, authority issues are pretty hard to resolve. Oftentimes your best course of action is, sadly, just to say "You're a twit!" An RPG is a collaborative effort. It seems like you have a social contract that defines the 'Rules GM' as the locus of mechanical authority and, by extension (since D&D rules very strongly define what a character is), character-building authority. It seems like she either doesn't understand how to share authority (in which case: bad times ahead) or doesn't understand how rules tie into character-building in D&D, since she's not good with the rules (in which case: make sure she's directly aware of this and renegotiate the social contract).
Knight9910 01-16-07, 12:29 AM	Okay, maybe I should explain a couple things. 1. SL = Storyline. Basically, think of it as a sort of extended campaign with more of an emphasis on role-playing. We do run dungeons and adventures but the emphasis is on RPing the characters' day-to-day lives. 2. The SL itself takes place over AIM. 3. She IS the DM, but she honestly acts more like a player. I've never seen her do anything remotely DMish. Usually she just lets people do whatever until things stop going exactly her way then she starts waving her DMship around like a weapon and threatening people. I have to agree with one of the other players who told her "Stop saying your DM and act like one." As for the whole deal...it's not so much that THIS was a problem as it is another example of what she does. She makes these huge rules breaks and threatens to shut the game down if you disagree. I've TRIED talking to her. The rules DM has tried talking to her. All of us have talked to her about it at some point in the past. Her favorite response is to simply type "*screams*", repeat it whenever someone tries to post, then sign off or else to type something along the lines of "**** IT I'M LEAVING" and immediately sign off. Either way she then signs back on 10 seconds later just to give us all a long speech about how it's her SL and she only agreed to let DnD be in it if it wouldn't restrict her RP freedom and how she'll kick us out if we try to tell her she can't do something. The thing is I don't want to leave the game. Honestly I would rather the rules DM run everything. He pretty much does now anyway. All she does is play random "cute animal" characters - a new one every day; last one was a baby catfolk girl, today's was a griffon - and yell at people. At this point I'm honestly not even sure what I'm asking anymore. I don't know wether I want her to be better at things or just go away. As for the FFRP thing...I got my start in FFRP. Hell, I got my start in Rhydin for chrissakes. (If you don't know what Rhydin is count yourself lucky.) But I've always found DnD to be way more fun and I understand that the rules are there for a reason and I do my best to follow them. So at the very least I think I'm proof that an FFRPer CAN be a good DnDer and a good DM.
Invoker47 01-16-07, 02:23 AM	Solution: vote with your feet. I never understood why people play with other people who cause the game to become completely unenjoyable. Try to get all the other people into another game, without her.
Yokomohoyo 01-16-07, 02:51 AM	Is the guy being a Steve only ingame but is a cool guy out of game? Or is he a Steve both in and out of game... If he's just doing it ingame then take one of the suggestions that we have offered... If he is being a Steve then just get rid of him untill he matures.
Cold Napalm 01-16-07, 02:58 AM	As for the FFRP thing...I got my start in FFRP. Hell, I got my start in Rhydin for chrissakes. (If you don't know what Rhydin is count yourself lucky.) But I've always found DnD to be way more fun and I understand that the rules are there for a reason and I do my best to follow them. So at the very least I think I'm proof that an FFRPer CAN be a good DnDer and a good DM. See but your not a FF RPGer at heart or you would rile against how rules are preventing you from "expressing your true character" or some other such non sense. I honestly hate playing with those people...they makes games, any games not fun anymore.
Moon-Lancer 01-16-07, 02:59 AM	kick her out, and let the other dm, dm.
Tenebrous_Sage 01-16-07, 03:14 AM	kick her out, and let the other dm, dm.This is what I would suggest. You have two DMs, one is good and the other sucks. Get together with the other players and the other DM and make arrangements to play without the problem DM. Then let the problem DM know that his/her services are no longer required.
Eikre 01-16-07, 03:33 AM	See but your not a FF RPGer at heart or you would rile against how rules are preventing you from "expressing your true character" or some other such non sense. I honestly hate playing with those people...they makes games, any games not fun anymore. You are essentially defining the letters FFRPG as something annoying, trite, and attempting to be a Free Form Role Playing Game. The problem here is that nobody else here is using this connotation; we simply default to the simpler "Annoying Trite thing in abominable semblance to a FFRPG." Try to use the language we've all agreed on.
strenoth 01-16-07, 04:41 AM	... she's not a FF gamer, she's a munchkin who doesn't want to leanr how to rules lawyer. this is said from the view point of some one who players free-form games and dice games equally well, and knows how to optimize when playing dice games.
a_psh 01-16-07, 12:05 PM	Sounds like the "Story GM" is doing nothing useful here. I agree with the folks who say "vote with your feet" -- specifically, give her the boot. You've got a group you seem to like, you've got a setting and characters that you seem to like, you've got another GM who's aleady running everything. Just because she says "I'm the GM, everything is mine" doesn't mean you can't all walk off and keep playing the game without her. Or, if that's too drastic, then you need to renogiate the social contract, at least: she's acting like a (non-GM) player, so she should be one. It really is that simple.
PhaedrusXY 01-16-07, 12:46 PM	Sounds like the "Story GM" is doing nothing useful here. I agree with the folks who say "vote with your feet" -- specifically, give her the boot. You've got a group you seem to like, you've got a setting and characters that you seem to like, you've got another GM who's aleady running everything. Just because she says "I'm the GM, everything is mine" doesn't mean you can't all walk off and keep playing the game without her.I agree 100%. I couldn't have said it better. Or, if that's too drasticIt's not. The nice thing to do would be to actually tell her in a polite way why you are all leaving. Anything beyond that is just letting her walk on you. It's not being nice to either her, or you.
Cold Napalm 01-16-07, 12:50 PM	You are essentially defining the letters FFRPG as something annoying, trite, and attempting to be a Free Form Role Playing Game. The problem here is that nobody else here is using this connotation; we simply default to the simpler "Annoying Trite thing in abominable semblance to a FFRPG." Try to use the language we've all agreed on. I've been in 2 FF RPG game and both were amber games and in both games that is exactly how the players acted. So i'm sorry, but so far 100% of my interaction FF RPGers have me at that opinion. That of course doesn't mean that I think EVERYONE who plays FF rpg games are like that, just the die hard FF rpg is the greatest thing EVER gamers I had the displeasure of playing with in those 2 amber games.
Knight9910 01-16-07, 11:09 PM	The only problem is I'm not sure the other players would go my way in giving the bad GM the boot. They've yelled at her about it on a few occasions but mostly they're too easy-going. I think most of them would rather keep a bad GM then rock the boat. Also, these DnD rules are limiting my ability to accurately portray my half-vampire super saiyan demon god! DAMMIT! But seriously, you are right on one thing: I'm NOT an FFRPer at heart. I got my start in it but I find it to be boring. But this isn't the thread for talking about FFRP.
a_psh 01-16-07, 11:12 PM	So, what about demoting her to a player? In the way you treat her if not in her title. You don't necessarily have to make a big show of it, either, if you're very worried about that: just don't treat her any different from the way you treat the other people there and encourage them to do the same. But, frankly, it's a lot more honest to openly renegotiate the social contract than to change it out from under her like that.
Tenebrous_Sage 01-16-07, 11:53 PM	The only problem is I'm not sure the other players would go my way in giving the bad GM the boot. They've yelled at her about it on a few occasions but mostly they're too easy-going. I think most of them would rather keep a bad GM then rock the boat.Talk to them, separately about it, see if you can get them to agree. So, what about demoting her to a player? In the way you treat her if not in her title. You don't necessarily have to make a big show of it, either, if you're very worried about that: just don't treat her any different from the way you treat the other people there and encourage them to do the same. But, frankly, it's a lot more honest to openly renegotiate the social contract than to change it out from under her like that.Or you can try this. Either way you're going to have to talk to the other players and rules DM seperately
zzakk2to2 01-18-07, 04:13 PM	if not all the players would go your way take the ones that would and the ruleDM and start you own game. you dont even have to stop you current campeign just have it split from the other where you just have the players characters that did not come be killed by the bbeg and continue in your own way.
NordicBirch 01-19-07, 10:25 AM	Her favorite response is to simply type "*screams*", repeat it whenever someone tries to post, then sign off or else to type something along the lines of "**** IT I'M LEAVING" and immediately sign off. Either way she then signs back on 10 seconds later just to give us all a long speech about how it's her SL and she only agreed to let DnD be in it if it wouldn't restrict her RP freedom and how she'll kick us out if we try to tell her she can't do something. Is she someone's kid sister or something? Otherwise I'm confused why you would waste your time on this spoiled 5-year-old brat. Seriously, your first sentence pretty much says everything you need to know. She's living out some princess fantasies or something. She obviously doesn't have any respect for you, so why should you let her set the pace? After all, a person only has as much power over you as you give them.
hmmmm 01-20-07, 12:16 AM	Hmmm, get rid of her. So far nothing you have said convinces me that she is a required part of this group. She doesn't do anything, she has no clue how to play, she is disrupting the game and can't follow basis rules. Since this is the internet you won't have to deal with the aftermath (while there still will be complaining you can just use AIMs ignore feature and forget about it).