Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadow080 01-19-05, 10:32 PM	I have a problem deciding on an alignment for a particular character and need some advice. It is bordering between LN and LE, and I can't decide which to use. He is a rogue who lives by a personal code having no wish to harm the innocent, but is extremely ruthless towards those who wrong him or his allies. He is likely to kill surrendering enemies instead of letting them live. However, he tolerates anyone who doesn't directly challenge him and condemns people according to their actions rather than their race, religion and so on. Some help would be appreciated. If you think LN or LE are wrong choices, please suggest other ones.
Thorak 01-20-05, 01:03 AM	LN, easily. He doesn't go out of his way to harm others, and only punishes those who cross him.
Vharuck 01-20-05, 01:40 AM	I'd say LE. Though he follow the rule of "Live and let live," he still is quite vicious to those he thinks don't "let him live."
anders 01-20-05, 04:11 AM	Do he see allies as friends or just pawns? Would he sacrifice himself for such a friend if the need arises? Both alignment sound good to me, although I think the above questions might differ evil from neutral. Hope this helps
Shadow080 01-20-05, 04:30 AM	He is loyal to friends and does not take advantage of anybody (which would suggest neutral). However, he battles with a hidden rage, is prone to acts of violence and has no problems with torturing enemies (which would suggest evil). Basically, I am at a loss at deciding between the two.
anders 01-20-05, 04:35 AM	I would say neutral based on that, but this is something you probably should talk to your GM about. Just tell him how he behaves so you wont have any stupid heated discussions coming up in game over your actions!
e-z0r 01-20-05, 07:35 AM	Just take the aligment which gives you better options for special items. Like unholy weapons are available to lawful evils. Besides, to me, he really seems evil. Consider the selfishness, mercilessness and arrogance this person displays. And being loyal to friends and not taking advantage of people, is, to me, lawfulness, not neutralness. But anyway, you could pick either of the two and let the DM tell you if your alignment changes to one side or other during the campaign. And it doesn't really matter, alignment's just a couple words on the paper - your character is who he is.
penchant 01-20-05, 07:49 AM	Lawful Evil. Why? His ethical and moral constraints are of his own choosing. Its what makes him civilized. He has no compunctions to use any means to accomplish his own ends however. Keeps his word but bares no mercy. This guy is archetypical LE.
Andrew_980 01-20-05, 08:45 AM	Just take the aligment which gives you better options for special items. Like unholy weapons are available to lawful evils. Ooooooh buddy you just won the munchkin award, good job discuraging role playing when you can just aim for power instead the character, i think is LN code first and no consern for good or evil.helpfull sometimes and wrathfull to those who wrong him, LN
Callista 01-20-05, 11:18 AM	I'd say LE. Though he follow the rule of "Live and let live," he still is quite vicious to those he thinks don't "let him live." We really need more information: Just how vicious is he? If he kills someone who raped his girlfriend, he's Neutral. If he tortures, then kills that person, he's Evil. If he kills someone who stole something from him, he's also evil. Killing people... -who wronged you in an extreme way (for example, killed or tortured one of your friends) -who did something extremely evil -who would try to kill you if you didn't kill them first ...is Neutral. Killing people... -who wronged you in a way that doesn't deserve death (theft, etc.) -who don't deserve it -while causing more pain than needed ...is Evil. Killing people... -who are wanted by the law for doing something which requires the death penalty -whom you have been asked to kill by someone in authority (For example, during times of war, if hunting an outlaw, or if you've been commissioned to kill the Evil Wizard) ...is Lawful. Chaotic people... -Enjoy the chaos of battle -Act as their hearts lead them (by gut instinct) -See people in authority as people, not authority figures -Probably have disdain for orderly ways of life -May be personally undisciplined -May have disrespect for authority in general (if they don't, it's just because they ignore its existence) -See friendships as more important than duty You mentioned torture--always an evil act. A Neutral person can torture someone without automatically switching alignment, though he'll drift down to evil if he does so (i.e., you've just captured the BBEG's minion... the BBEG is about to sacrifice an innocent creature to his god... you don't have access to charm/compulsion spells, and Intimidate has failed. Such an act would be evil, but not bad enough to change a neutral person's alignment.) If he enjoys it at all when he tortures someone... Evil. No question. Which one of those categories would your PC fit into?
MrkGrismer 01-20-05, 11:44 AM	Neutral. I don't see anything in the description that states that the character actively seeks any type of morality, he is not for order, freedom, life, nor its destruction. A character that does not care enough to do something is neutral in 3.5. If the character actively tries to save lives and protect life then the character is good. If the character actively tries to destroy life (for fun and/or profit rather then to protect other life) then the character is evil. If the character strives to advance order, reliability and rules then the character is lawful. If the character stives to advance individual rights, freedoms, independence and rebellion then the character is chaotic. If the character does not strive to advance a morality, the character is neutral.
e-z0r 01-20-05, 02:12 PM	Ooooooh buddy you just won the munchkin award, good job discuraging role playing when you can just aim for power instead the character, i think is LN code first and no consern for good or evil.helpfull sometimes and wrathfull to those who wrong him, LN I just don't think it matters that much, and since it's a borderline case, there's no reason NOT to pick evil and be eligible for unholy weapons. :) Besides, to all of you there, you don't have to "advance the ideal of evil" to be evil. You just need to be doing whatever you're doing to get something for yourself. Money, power, pleasure, whatever. You don't have to be some sort of destroyer of all life and bringer of pain and doom to be an evil character. That's just stupid.
Shadow080 01-20-05, 05:32 PM	I guess a good example of this character is The Punisher(tm) from Marvel. Although he is ruthless and merciless, he despises those who harm the innocent and helps those in need.
MrkGrismer 01-20-05, 05:53 PM	Besides, to all of you there, you don't have to "advance the ideal of evil" to be evil. Actually, yes you do. Characters that lack the commitment to kill (for fun and profit) when convienent are neutral, per core rules.
e-z0r 01-20-05, 06:08 PM	Actually, yes you do. Characters that lack the commitment to kill (for fun and profit) when convienent are neutral, per core rules. You didn't get what I meant. I don't think many evil characters think "I am EVIL!! HAR HAR HAR. All the world shall come to darkness because evil is a generally desirable goal!" They just get pleasure out of or take opportinities to profit from things considered evil by other people, and they see nothing wrong with that. I don't see an evil character as evil because he thinks he's evil or sees evil as something to be worked towards. Well, of course, there may be evil characters who do that also, but they're only part of the evil population of the world. I don't think most evil characters see themselves as evil, or see themselves pushing any other ideal or goal other than their own gain and pleasure. One wonders, which is the greater evil: Doing what others see as evil, though not considering it evil yourself (you've never learned to feel that what you do is evil, you only see that others think so. But you think otherwise.), or doing what others see as evil, feeling that it's evil even in your book, only you just quench your conscience for some other reasons?
Wexquif 01-20-05, 06:28 PM	Ln
MrkGrismer 01-20-05, 10:27 PM	You didn't get what I meant. I don't think many evil characters think "I am EVIL!! HAR HAR HAR. All the world shall come to darkness because evil is a generally desirable goal!" They just get pleasure out of or take opportinities to profit from things considered evil by other people, and they see nothing wrong with that. I don't see an evil character as evil because he thinks he's evil or sees evil as something to be worked towards. Well, of course, there may be evil characters who do that also, but they're only part of the evil population of the world. I don't think most evil characters see themselves as evil, or see themselves pushing any other ideal or goal other than their own gain and pleasure. What you describe is the criminally insane. An evil character knows that they do evil, and they choose to do so.
Zom 01-20-05, 11:15 PM	LN
Palin the Wizard 01-21-05, 01:43 AM	If he's like the Punisher... LE.
e-z0r 01-21-05, 02:18 AM	An evil character knows that they do evil, and they choose to do so. You can't be that generalized. Evil characters are varied. Some of them might do evil even if they themself felt like it's evil, and that it's wrong to do so. Some of them don't know it's evil. They know that OTHERS think it's evil, but maybe they've never felt that way themselves.
Shard of Suzail 01-21-05, 08:16 AM	So long as harsh justice is also fair and focused, then he`s a lawful neutral. If he extends that justice to killing someone`s friends and family, its evil as it moves into vengeance. Thus, L/N.
MrkGrismer 01-21-05, 08:36 AM	You can't be that generalized. Evil characters are varied. Some of them might do evil even if they themself felt like it's evil, and that it's wrong to do so. Some of them don't know it's evil. They know that OTHERS think it's evil, but maybe they've never felt that way themselves. If they can't tell right from wrong, they are criminally insane, not evil.
Leap 01-21-05, 08:53 AM	What is he? Unrealistic. Normalising torture in your behaviour is something that WILL drag your whole behaviour into LEness because of such blatant "debasement" (see PHB description of evil) of others. Neutrals should be "mostly harmless" with a bit of charitableness and a bit or pure predation. Goods should be primarily charitable and evils primarily predatory....
Callista 01-21-05, 10:38 AM	Hmmm... Stick him at LN, then tell your DM to tell *you* if/when you've turned LE. Should solve that problem. Your character's on the borderline, anyway, so it doesn't matter which he is, really; the personality is what matters when role playing him.