Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asken 07-17-06, 02:08 AM	Hey guys! Yesterday I happend to be in the following situation with my fighter. Me and my rogue-buddy were both caravanguards for a very large caravan (100 members, around 20 wagons) that was supposed to travel for a very long time all around the country. It was a big prestige-project for the merchants investing in the caravan. One of the other merchantguilds are out to spoil it for the merchants that we are protecting and they have so far arranged a rather large ambush and sabotaged some of our wagons. Recently the merchants that we are protecting had gotten hold of some information as to who was responsible for the sabotage and ambush. My rogue-buddy and I accepted the assignment to ride into the next city and bring back the culprit to the caravan, so that he could be questioned. We arrived in the city and found the tavern where we knew this guy is staying. We make a plan and then wait for him to arrive. Well matters evolve and he is just about to get away from us, so we have to attack him and his two bodyguards inside the tavern, so that they dont get away. It all turns into a mess when the guy we are supposed to get begins lobbing fireballs and lightningbolts around inside the tavern. The whole tavern begins to burn, 6 drunken dwarves think that it is us who killed one of their friends with a fireball, the cityguard is marching in the street and I dont know what. The culprit casts a spell that makes him disappear and we've only got one of his henchmen alive (the other one he himself offed with the fireball), so we pick up the henchman as he is our only lead now, and run out through the kitchen into the backalley. In the alley we see the back of the culprit running away from us, we yell at him to stop which makes him turn around and magic missile my rogue-buddy, who has readied an attack to shoot when he starts spellcasting. We decide to split up, the rogue going away to the secret meetingplace with the henchman on the rogues flying carpet and I pursue the culprit on foot. (in hindsight maybe not the best of ideas but, nevertheless). We ran through crowded streets for a while and he darted into an abandoned warehouse. I followed and found that he had smashed the only lighting in there, which made most of the warehouse dark as night. We snook around for a while and it ended up with me shooting him twice with my bow. He stood up on a ledge and when I had fired my arrows he cast a spell. I guess it was cloudkill, so I began taking damage each round I spent in the cloud. I ran to the ladder and climbed up to the ledge only to see the culprits ugly mug when he grabbed the top of the ladder and pushed it so that it would tip into the cloud again. Luckily I grabbed a hold of the culprits beard and pulled him with me out on the tipping ladder. There we stood Jackie Chan style balancing on the ladder, dancing around over the foul vapours below. I took a quick decision and threw myself backwards while holding even tighter onto the culprit, he yelled that I was crazy as he knew that he wasn't immune to his own indismissable spell :) We landed and the blow made me loose hold of him, so he got up and I got up almost at the same time. He had a head start of about 1 round. We both ran all that we could. He burst through the double doors in the warehouse and out into the streets. Problem was that the vapours now began pouring out in the streets endangering all the people there. As I stumbles out in the street I see a little girl and her mother standing almost next to the billowing green fumes, the mother would probably have time to get away but the girl was just standing there pointing at the fumes and looking interested. Dillemma: Girl og bad guy? I am chaotic good. What would be best alignmentwise for me to do? Save the girl and let the bad guy get away or continue my pursuit of him although most probably killing the little girl? I was in favor of continuing my pursuit for the following reason: All the deaths up until now would have been utterly in vain if I didn't get a hold of this guy. If I saved the girl I would almost certainly loose track of him and thus he would have all the time in the world to find out who we were, why we were after him and who we were working for, something which I for several reasons didn't think was a good idea. Also this guys morals was close to zero as he didn't hold back throwing fireballs and lightningbolts in heavily populated areas, so I guessed if he was allowed to run free in the streets he'd probably end up killing even more people. All in all I judged it was the best cost-benefit solution to continue chasing him AND the good thing to do. My DM disagreed. Probably because of several things, the most important one being that he wanted his bad guy to get away. That aside (I don't really know if that was what he was thinking) he deemed my ignoring of the girl to be evil or at least indifferent balancing on evil and called it bad alignment play. So my question is this: What do you guys think? Was it reasonable and in character, being chaotic good and still wanting to leave the girl to die, but at the same time probably saving alot of other people or was I way out of line with my judgement? --- All that being said and thought about... I managed to pick up the girl while I was running away from the cloud and after the bad guy, all the while screaming to people that the cloud was poisonous, the mother running after me because she thought I was a madman kidnapping her daughter. I dropped the girl in a fruitmerchants wagon on my way, when she was safe from the poisonous cloud. So all in all it ended up pretty good, me being accused of kidnapping (accused, never caught though ;)) and the bad guy getting away later on anyways...
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-17-06, 02:28 AM	I think your motives were mostly right but your judgement was wrong. CG generally wants to do good regardless of the method, but I think in the situation you were presented with, the best way to accomplish that would have been to give up on (or at least delay) the assignment to catch the guy, and save the life of the girl. You reason that the guy would have gone on to kill a lot more people. I disagree. He only started casting spells when he was cornered, your continued pursuit of the guy only increased the likelyhood that he would continue to wreak havoc in his efforts to get you off his tail. You always put innocent lives at risk when you provoke an enemy who has WMDs in a crowded area. I think the best course of action there would have been to break off pursuit, save the girl, keep track of the spells this guy seems capable of and plan accordingly, then go after him at a later date and try to neutralize him before he can start racking up collateral damage.
fatal error 07-17-06, 02:30 AM	I'd say your DM is correct, being good is all about not compromising. You don't know he would kill more people before you could pick up the trail again, or that he wouldn't get away from you even if you continued the chase (as it seems he did). I would rule it as neutral, you were essentinally practicing risk management; keep the airlock sealed to prevent the nerve toxin from possibly reaching into the rest of the base, but leaving two technicians to die, rather than risking the entire base staff. Certainly not evil, given the danger this character posed to the populace.
LordQuazk 07-17-06, 03:27 AM	In this situation, there doesn't appear to be a right, "Good" answer- Alignments are rather abstract. Save the girl- definitely leans toward chaotic good, but it DOES let the destructive bad guy get away. By some thought processes it's Neutral. Go after the bad guy- Since, from the character's point of view, this will save many more people, it would appear good. But, it also lets someone die for *certain*, while it's uncertain whether the bad guy will kill more. But he probably will. Also balances out to Neutral. Your only choices were Neutral, Neutral, and Evil, which would be to run around in a blind rage and destroy everything you see. Alignments are mostly from the point of view of the character, though. I believe the PHB mentioned that a lawful character still might steal things if they can justify it to themselves. ALL your character's actions don't need to match their alignment to the letter. Anyway, continuing the chase was a good act in your character's eyes . (My compliments to the DM for handling an exciting chase scene. Well done. However, if he wanted the villain to escape, why didn't he have any Wall of Something or Other spells prepared? Tsk tsk. Even Grease could have helped out there.)
Asken 07-17-06, 08:24 AM	Thanx for your replies guys! I can see what you mean... I think the result of all this is that I'll change my alignment to true neutral or chaotic neutral, so that I in the future will don't have to go through a debate on how my actions are either good or evil. My character is more of a reluctant hero... Always ending up saving the princess from the dragon even if he didn't intend to do it in the first place. How do one adjudicate which alignment a reluctant hero has... Sometimes he is selfish, sometimes he is heroic and selfless, no matter usually ending up doing something that is percieved as good by others, but not really doing it for goodness sake or for the love of freedom and life... and stuff like that. It sounds neutral of sorts to me... What do you say? Yes my DM ran that gamesession very very well, it was hillarious to chase around, high paced and all... HP-meter ticking lower and lower, taking risks and getting pressed from all sides :) SWEET! Actually in a weak moment i considered just fieldgoal-kicking the poor girl out of the way instead... (Probably killing her anyway) :D
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-17-06, 08:31 AM	Hey, sometimes you have to hurt to help. I play a CG character that once bit an innocent bystander to break him out of a fascination effect, in order to get directions to follow a lich kidnapper the character was chasing, and tell him to clear the area before all hell broke loose. :smirk:
Bluntpencil2001 07-17-06, 08:44 AM	You could have continued pursuit, and shouted "RUN!" at the bystanders...
draco1119 07-17-06, 08:59 AM	I'd say CG is perfect for the reluctant hero. You don't care about the fact that the Lawful kingdom is being threatened, but you can't let the innocent people of said kingdom suffer without someone to help...
Reversefigure4 07-18-06, 12:04 AM	I'd have kept up the pursuit. The girl was there with her mother and numerous people on the street who could (and really probably would) have pulled her out of the way, while only a strong hero like yourself could take down the bad guy.
King_Bulba 07-18-06, 01:37 AM	Way I see the alignment issue here. This is a L/C issue not a G/E. Lawfull good people would have saved the girl and let the BBEG go. LG people are never said to be smart, I think it should be mandetory to have an int of 8 or less to be LG. LG does what is proper even if good gets minamized because it is proper way to do it. CG does what he thinks is best for all, even at the sacrafice to himself. If you think the BBEG will kill more people and it comes down to catching the BBEG or saving the child, the CG would catch the BBEG. The greater good demands it. For chaotic it comes down to your opinions and if your good then you will do what you think is best for everyone as a whole. It doesnt matter what others think, it only matters what you think. The stupid thing to is let the BBEG go if you think he will harm others, I would call that Lafull stupid if your let him go. NG does the middle ground. It does what others view as good. He/she isnt attached to the law but does follow the consensous of good, which law often is. Paladins with over an 8 int would be NG, not LG... It is hard to say what a NG would do here. Some would save the girl, some would catch the BBEG. I think majority would catch the BBEG since the greater good is best served with the BBEG out of the way. Saving one at the sacrafice of many (as long as you feel this, doesnt matter if it is true) isn't what good would want. Though many would see saving the girl worth the risk of letting the BBEG go. Saveing the girl is the paladins job, saving the day is chaotic and neutral goods job. BAH I hate alignment, it should be replaced! Cases can be made for any alignment to have many stances and most of them would contradict each other. Conflicting examples can be infured in the PHB iteslf.
kelvinaw273 07-18-06, 05:10 AM	My best guess ... he's throwing thse spells around because you are chasing him, so stopping chasing him would stop innocents being threatened (which is what he intends). Save the child, track the villain later, is what my decision would be for a Good character. Law and Chaos have little to do with it when the life of a child is threatened, that's when you find out who is truly Good and who isn't.
Asken 07-18-06, 07:32 AM	Hey Bluntpencil2001 You could have continued pursuit, and shouted "RUN!" at the bystanders... As said in my first post :) I managed to pick up the girl while I was running away from the cloud and after the bad guy, all the while screaming to people that the cloud was poisonous[...]
Asken 07-18-06, 07:48 AM	Hey reversefigure4 I'd have kept up the pursuit. The girl was there with her mother and numerous people on the street who could (and really probably would) have pulled her out of the way, while only a strong hero like yourself could take down the bad guy. I reasoned like that too, but my DM made it clear to me that if I didn't pick her up, she would almost certainly die. I think that the compromise we came up with; me "kidnapping" the girl until she was out of reach of the cloudkill, was the best solution because it made it possible for me to continue my hunt for the bad guy and still saving the girl, even though she and her mommy got scarred ;) (better scarred than dead, I guess) Trouble was that with the initial description of the situation that my DM came up with it seemed like a "either girl or bad guy" choice. Based upon that information I decided to leave the girl. Only after having a minor argument as described in an earlier post about what could and could not be done while still being good, I asked if I could both pick up the girl and run after the bad guy. I turned out that it was possible and that made everyones day at that point. The primary reason for me to bring this up, is that I have mostly been playing goodie-two-shoe-characters (clerics, paladins etc.) all my life and I wanted to make something different this time and strangely the the first time that my character is in some kind of moral dilemma my DM is almost forcing me to take certain actions that he thinks fit the alignment better than I think it fit my character idea... Which lead me to the conclusion that either my DM and I had to agree more on what could and could not be done within the boundaries of chaotic good alignment OR change my alignment, so that that pesky little four-letter word GOOD didn't cause moral arguments at every turn I make.
Asken 07-18-06, 07:59 AM	kelvinaw273 My best guess ... he's throwing thse spells around because you are chasing him, so stopping chasing him would stop innocents being threatened (which is what he intends). Save the child, track the villain later, is what my decision would be for a Good character. Yes he is throwing spells around because we are chasing him, but it started out in a tavern where we thought we had everything under control... Just until he made crisp out of my chesthair with a lightningbolt and shishkebab out of his henchman, a dwarven barpatron and some others that we didn't know much of. At that point it seem stoopid to just let him go, now that there was an actual chance that I might have caught up with the guy. As said earlier, all the deaths in the tavern and the colletral damages that ensued because the dead dwarfs friends almost started a riot, would have been utterly in vain if this bad guy didn't get caught right now. I also had my assignment to think about: To catch this guy alive and bring him back to the caravan so that he could be questioned. Although that hasn't much to do with the alignment issue at hand... Last but not least the city that we were in is very big, around 40.000 people and we have never been in the city before and thus have no contacts or anything. Both my rogue-buddy and I are quite good at information gathering and diplomacy, but we have almost no clue as to who this guy we are chasing is and will have a hard time finding him before he can investigate us thouroughly with magic and stuff and then he will have the upper hand. It was very important for us to get him then and there and unfortunately we underestimated our enemy and innocent people suffered because of that, which just made it so much more important to continue the chase. When that is said... We lick our wounds and start a new hunt for the bad guy next sunday, with new alignment and bigger guns... MUAHHAHAHAAAAA :) Thanx for all your input guys, it's greatly appreciated
Cifer 07-18-06, 08:16 AM	You don't play an alignment, you play a character. If you think that he would do a certain action, there is probably noone capable of knowing your character better than you. If the alignment doesn't agree with that, it's the alignment that will have to change, not your action. Also notice that with very few exceptions a single action cannot change your alignment - you need to act constantly in a certain fashion to switch. About the moral of the situation I won't debate - IMO your reasoning was good, but the alignment system tends to be rather vague...
Asken 07-18-06, 08:37 AM	True Cifer :)
High Octane 07-18-06, 09:00 AM	In that kind of situation yes saving the girl would be a good act. Pursuing him instead could not be justified as a good act really because you are still ignoring an innocents certain death. To call it evil would be a stretch though. In any case your character may be good, but chaotic good alignment does NOT mean exhalted by any means. If all your DM did was say "That action was not befitting someone of a good alignment", thats fine. If he tried to shift your alignment over that or punished you in some way, I would start calling foul. In any case, this sounds like a good DM. Dont get petty.
Asken 07-18-06, 09:17 AM	High Octane In any case, this sounds like a good DM. Dont get petty. Yeah his the best... Been playing with him through almost 15 years now :) Although we have never really agreed on how to adjudicate what the different alignemnts really means :D