Alignments ;) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignments ;) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Funkstorung
05-04-04, 06:58 PM I've played DnD for about two years but still get confused, and frustrated, with the alignments presented in the phb.

A lawful character tries it's best to follow the laws, quite logical really. But what laws? The laws of the country where he was born and spent most of his life before beginning to adventure? The laws in the current country he is in? The laws that his religion/church dictates? Or does he try to follow them all? And what if some of the laws are opposites?

I mostly tend to like the description of the chaotic good alignment but in my games (I'm just a player, not the GM) I almost always get warnings from the DM concerning that my character isn't following his aligment.
I get extremely frustrated that my character, a 25 yo human is so shallow that he must inherit one out of nine different moral packages. I understand that how rigidly players must stick to the letter of the nine alignments is decided in each individual group but still...

The latest argument I had with my GM as about the behaviour of my chaotic good barbarian. I was in a mine with two other, ng I think, players and the cleric had just turned three undead monsters. The monsters fled towards the exit of the mine and we knew that an old man lived in a building close to the exit.
Our reason for going down there was to save 12 kidnapped miners who were in the clutches of quite evil villains.
The cleric and the other player argued that we must chase after the undead and kill them since they might kill the old man but I didn't agree. The monsters were too fast for us to catch up so there was NO way we could get them before they'd kill the geezer. If at all they would. Secondly any slowing down was risking the lives of 12 other people, they might all be killed any minute as far as we knew. I continued down on my own while they other two went to save the old man.
This rendered me a warning and my entire group believed I had made an error.

Any advice what I can/should do? My GM seems to stick to a very rigid view of the 9 alignments and I find a (for example) LG fighter who ALWAYS acts LG extremely boring. That leaves very little depth to the character. Finding a new group is no option and besides they're all good friends of mine...we just get miffed sometimes when playing DnD :D

Sorry for the rant.
ehrin
05-04-04, 07:12 PM First off, a lawful character follows their code and that of their society, not necessarily a "law" created by someone else. They believe that their word is their bond, and that discipline and order is the most important thing. Doing what you say you would do is lawful. Keeping your word is lawful. doing your job is lawful. Keeping your promise is lawful. Obeying the rules is lawful. Respecting authority is lawful

Lots of "laws" have arisen to define activities for the greater good, but to a lawful person, those are simply rules that society has placed... some are important, others are silly. What's important to the lawful person is HOW the laws got placed (by order? by a process? or randomly?) and how those laws affect their own process.

In your case, i can't see that you did anything too terribly chaotic or lawful. You had a mission, which you tried to follow (rescue 12 people) even when others tried to do something else. If anything, I would you acted a bit more orderly (lawful) than they did, in that you tried to stick with the rescue mission. But a chaotic good individual also relies a lot on their word as their bond (especially Chaotic good), and simply put, you "promised" to try to rescue 12 miners, you were simply trying to make good on that promise. It was a matter of personal honor for you.
Edymnion
05-04-04, 07:21 PM Well, for starters, there is no such thing as "acting outside your alignment" to warn you about. Alignment is a thermometer, not a straightjacket. It mearly represents your characters outlook on life. It does not dictate how your character should act, nor are there any consequences to acting in a way other than your alignment says you typically should.

And technically, Lawful does not mean you follow the laws, Neutral means you follow the laws. Lawful means you go out of your way to enforce the law, or to spread the law. Chaotic means you're the rebel, screw the rules, you're doing what you want to do, while Neutral means that you follow the law, but have no great desire to spread it, nor to break it, just go with the flow.

You did fine, you did not act in a way that should even come close to threatening an alignment change. In fact, no single action can change your alignment, no matter how bad it is. You have to get into a pattern of acting in a new way before your alignment can change. So it doesn't matter if you slaughtered everybody down there, your alignment would not change, at least not right away.

What should you do?
Tell your DM to come in here to this thread and explain his point of view on things. Lets get both sides of the story in here. And if he's using alignment to straightjacket you guys, then we'll set him straight. :D

Unless he's thick headed and stubborn, then you're in trouble anyway. Whole point of the game is to have fun though. If you're not having fun, then something is wrong.
Lithium
05-04-04, 07:38 PM Personlly, I believe your character acted in a chaotic way.

Firstly he was following what his own morals dictate, and secondly he was looking, again with respect to his own morals, at the greater good. One old man vs 12 kidnapped miners.

I don't believe your character was acting out of alignment.

*Dons flame suit just in case*
Count Arioch the 28th
05-04-04, 07:45 PM I'm with Eddy on this one.You didn nothing outside your alignment, and even if you did, you didn't do something that deserves a warning.

If you went back to town and slaughtered several people for no reason, that would deserve a warning. Wanting to complete your mission by any means needed is not, in fact, what you did is something I would hold as a shining example of Chaotic good.
elf killer 32
05-04-04, 09:14 PM Yeah, I agree, totally within the range of Chaotic Godd. alot on the Neutral side but totally in the range abd totally not deserving of a warning. Thats another point, alignment is a range of behaviors, not just a specific set. Example: I play a Chaotic Good Barbarian who with a focus on the Chaotic. Our Swarf Wizard is chaotic with a focus on the Good. Both of us however, stay well within the range of Choatic Good.
Grox
05-04-04, 09:23 PM Uh . . . this entire dilemma you were facing doesn't actually involve alignment AT ALL.

You and your buddies were all playing good guys. You were all motivated by saving innocent lives that were threatened by evil. You have *exactly the same intentions and priorities*.

You and your buddies had a difference in opinion about the best way to further those intentions and priorities. It was a tactical judgment call, nothing more.

Later facts could show that you were factually wrong, or maybe that your friends were wrong. factually But either way neither of you were taking any kind of moral stand. So how could you OR them be "morally wrong" --- by the standards of ANY alignment?
Naeron
05-05-04, 12:20 PM I don't see that your PC did anything outside a CG alignment.

3 Turned undead were heading out of the mines and moving faster than you. Yes they might come out of the turn close to the old mans hut (when the 1 minute ends) in which case they might not just head back into the mine in an attempt to obey their orders and the old man might be visible to the undead when they get outside.

That is a lot of might be's there, against this there is the fact that as far as your PC knew delay would endanger the lives of the miners. The CG answer could certainly be to proceed.

Lawful does not mean Law-abiding. It means "Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties."

So a Lawful character does obey the law because of their respect for authority and honouring of tradition, they obey laws because they believe that society needs order to function best and Laws achieve this end. However they would not necessarily obey a law that is at odds with the other element of their alignment (but they need not go out of their way to break it).

If a law was evil then a Lawful Good character would feel no compulsion to be bound by it and would make personal sacrifices to protect innocents threatened by such a law.
Stafir Ortnev
05-05-04, 07:22 PM I don't think you can classify someone as lawful or chaotic in this situation.

This basically came down to...save 1 guy, or save 12 guys.

Your character was actually doing something wholey good. He chose to try to save the many...than to save the few..who he believed he had no hope of saving anyway.

In no way did lawful or chaotic come into this.

Unless you wish to argue you chose to do what your character thought was right..over what everyone else was telling him was right. At that point you actually acted chaotic.
Funkstorung
05-06-04, 04:30 AM Thanks for all the great unput people! :)

At the time I also had some trouble identifying the choice as one of aligment. The groups leader is, somewhat, the cleric but my Uthgardt barbarian has very strong martial pride and strong moral rules so he pretty much acts after what he most honorable for him. So it might be argued that the action was a little chaotic since I didn't follow the leader but then again...characters, even lawful ones, don't follow the groups leader ALL the time anyway.

But...the GM considered it an alignment issue. He said it wasn't GOOD to leave the old man to his chances up there. Leaving him was a evil act. Or well..perhaps not evil but not goof anyway.
I tried to reason with him, using pretty much the same points I've used here but alas it was not to be that he would agree.
I can't now, and certainly couldn't then, agree to his view of it. At all. I think I'll let this one "go" and the next time, if or when that is, I'll make a strong stand.

So...until next time I feel badly treated in a game...adios friends :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Funkstorung 05-04-04, 06:58 PM	I've played DnD for about two years but still get confused, and frustrated, with the alignments presented in the phb. A lawful character tries it's best to follow the laws, quite logical really. But what laws? The laws of the country where he was born and spent most of his life before beginning to adventure? The laws in the current country he is in? The laws that his religion/church dictates? Or does he try to follow them all? And what if some of the laws are opposites? I mostly tend to like the description of the chaotic good alignment but in my games (I'm just a player, not the GM) I almost always get warnings from the DM concerning that my character isn't following his aligment. I get extremely frustrated that my character, a 25 yo human is so shallow that he must inherit one out of nine different moral packages. I understand that how rigidly players must stick to the letter of the nine alignments is decided in each individual group but still... The latest argument I had with my GM as about the behaviour of my chaotic good barbarian. I was in a mine with two other, ng I think, players and the cleric had just turned three undead monsters. The monsters fled towards the exit of the mine and we knew that an old man lived in a building close to the exit. Our reason for going down there was to save 12 kidnapped miners who were in the clutches of quite evil villains. The cleric and the other player argued that we must chase after the undead and kill them since they might kill the old man but I didn't agree. The monsters were too fast for us to catch up so there was NO way we could get them before they'd kill the geezer. If at all they would. Secondly any slowing down was risking the lives of 12 other people, they might all be killed any minute as far as we knew. I continued down on my own while they other two went to save the old man. This rendered me a warning and my entire group believed I had made an error. Any advice what I can/should do? My GM seems to stick to a very rigid view of the 9 alignments and I find a (for example) LG fighter who ALWAYS acts LG extremely boring. That leaves very little depth to the character. Finding a new group is no option and besides they're all good friends of mine...we just get miffed sometimes when playing DnD :D Sorry for the rant.
ehrin 05-04-04, 07:12 PM	First off, a lawful character follows their code and that of their society, not necessarily a "law" created by someone else. They believe that their word is their bond, and that discipline and order is the most important thing. Doing what you say you would do is lawful. Keeping your word is lawful. doing your job is lawful. Keeping your promise is lawful. Obeying the rules is lawful. Respecting authority is lawful Lots of "laws" have arisen to define activities for the greater good, but to a lawful person, those are simply rules that society has placed... some are important, others are silly. What's important to the lawful person is HOW the laws got placed (by order? by a process? or randomly?) and how those laws affect their own process. In your case, i can't see that you did anything too terribly chaotic or lawful. You had a mission, which you tried to follow (rescue 12 people) even when others tried to do something else. If anything, I would you acted a bit more orderly (lawful) than they did, in that you tried to stick with the rescue mission. But a chaotic good individual also relies a lot on their word as their bond (especially Chaotic good), and simply put, you "promised" to try to rescue 12 miners, you were simply trying to make good on that promise. It was a matter of personal honor for you.
Edymnion 05-04-04, 07:21 PM	Well, for starters, there is no such thing as "acting outside your alignment" to warn you about. Alignment is a thermometer, not a straightjacket. It mearly represents your characters outlook on life. It does not dictate how your character should act, nor are there any consequences to acting in a way other than your alignment says you typically should. And technically, Lawful does not mean you follow the laws, Neutral means you follow the laws. Lawful means you go out of your way to enforce the law, or to spread the law. Chaotic means you're the rebel, screw the rules, you're doing what you want to do, while Neutral means that you follow the law, but have no great desire to spread it, nor to break it, just go with the flow. You did fine, you did not act in a way that should even come close to threatening an alignment change. In fact, no single action can change your alignment, no matter how bad it is. You have to get into a pattern of acting in a new way before your alignment can change. So it doesn't matter if you slaughtered everybody down there, your alignment would not change, at least not right away. What should you do? Tell your DM to come in here to this thread and explain his point of view on things. Lets get both sides of the story in here. And if he's using alignment to straightjacket you guys, then we'll set him straight. :D Unless he's thick headed and stubborn, then you're in trouble anyway. Whole point of the game is to have fun though. If you're not having fun, then something is wrong.
Lithium 05-04-04, 07:38 PM	Personlly, I believe your character acted in a chaotic way. Firstly he was following what his own morals dictate, and secondly he was looking, again with respect to his own morals, at the greater good. One old man vs 12 kidnapped miners. I don't believe your character was acting out of alignment. Dons flame suit just in case
Count Arioch the 28th 05-04-04, 07:45 PM	I'm with Eddy on this one.You didn nothing outside your alignment, and even if you did, you didn't do something that deserves a warning. If you went back to town and slaughtered several people for no reason, that would deserve a warning. Wanting to complete your mission by any means needed is not, in fact, what you did is something I would hold as a shining example of Chaotic good.
elf killer 32 05-04-04, 09:14 PM	Yeah, I agree, totally within the range of Chaotic Godd. alot on the Neutral side but totally in the range abd totally not deserving of a warning. Thats another point, alignment is a range of behaviors, not just a specific set. Example: I play a Chaotic Good Barbarian who with a focus on the Chaotic. Our Swarf Wizard is chaotic with a focus on the Good. Both of us however, stay well within the range of Choatic Good.
Grox 05-04-04, 09:23 PM	Uh . . . this entire dilemma you were facing doesn't actually involve alignment AT ALL. You and your buddies were all playing good guys. You were all motivated by saving innocent lives that were threatened by evil. You have exactly the same intentions and priorities. You and your buddies had a difference in opinion about the best way to further those intentions and priorities. It was a tactical judgment call, nothing more. Later facts could show that you were factually wrong, or maybe that your friends were wrong. factually But either way neither of you were taking any kind of moral stand. So how could you OR them be "morally wrong" --- by the standards of ANY alignment?
Naeron 05-05-04, 12:20 PM	I don't see that your PC did anything outside a CG alignment. 3 Turned undead were heading out of the mines and moving faster than you. Yes they might come out of the turn close to the old mans hut (when the 1 minute ends) in which case they might not just head back into the mine in an attempt to obey their orders and the old man might be visible to the undead when they get outside. That is a lot of might be's there, against this there is the fact that as far as your PC knew delay would endanger the lives of the miners. The CG answer could certainly be to proceed. Lawful does not mean Law-abiding. It means "Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties." So a Lawful character does obey the law because of their respect for authority and honouring of tradition, they obey laws because they believe that society needs order to function best and Laws achieve this end. However they would not necessarily obey a law that is at odds with the other element of their alignment (but they need not go out of their way to break it). If a law was evil then a Lawful Good character would feel no compulsion to be bound by it and would make personal sacrifices to protect innocents threatened by such a law.
Stafir Ortnev 05-05-04, 07:22 PM	I don't think you can classify someone as lawful or chaotic in this situation. This basically came down to...save 1 guy, or save 12 guys. Your character was actually doing something wholey good. He chose to try to save the many...than to save the few..who he believed he had no hope of saving anyway. In no way did lawful or chaotic come into this. Unless you wish to argue you chose to do what your character thought was right..over what everyone else was telling him was right. At that point you actually acted chaotic.
Funkstorung 05-06-04, 04:30 AM	Thanks for all the great unput people! :) At the time I also had some trouble identifying the choice as one of aligment. The groups leader is, somewhat, the cleric but my Uthgardt barbarian has very strong martial pride and strong moral rules so he pretty much acts after what he most honorable for him. So it might be argued that the action was a little chaotic since I didn't follow the leader but then again...characters, even lawful ones, don't follow the groups leader ALL the time anyway. But...the GM considered it an alignment issue. He said it wasn't GOOD to leave the old man to his chances up there. Leaving him was a evil act. Or well..perhaps not evil but not goof anyway. I tried to reason with him, using pretty much the same points I've used here but alas it was not to be that he would agree. I can't now, and certainly couldn't then, agree to his view of it. At all. I think I'll let this one "go" and the next time, if or when that is, I'll make a strong stand. So...until next time I feel badly treated in a game...adios friends :D