Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheSilentF 08-01-04, 07:16 PM	If you play as a rogue, have any of you come across really good weopons and/or prestige classes that are good for rogues?
fruits and vegetables 08-01-04, 07:35 PM	master thrower man. They rock if you want to have a rogue that can stay almost as good as dishing out damage as a fighter of the same level. Just be sure to pick up three levels of swashbuckler so you can add INT to damage. Assassins are super cool. Their spell list is of little use but if you keep a nice selection of poison on hand then you can do some serious damage. That and the death attack is the sweetest. those are my two favorites.
Edymnion 08-01-04, 08:37 PM	Dual weild shortswords, take weapon focus in said shortswords. Be a rogue 16/fighter 4 for weapon specialization in said shortswords. Take full TWF tree with help of fighter bonus feats to max out your sneak attack blender of death abilities. Don't bother with PrC, there are no good ones for Rogues.
B Rob 08-01-04, 10:49 PM	This may help you. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207643#post2947210) And if you take Edymnion's suggestion: Q: What are the most common Min/Max mistakes for this class? A: Building a TWF-Rogue with the highest stat not in constitution. Trying to substitute a Fighter is also a bad idea as a Rogue.
a18ffe 08-01-04, 11:02 PM	For my character. a magic Greatsword. Although originally built for 2W fighting to maximize sneaks. My character is weilding the weapon that almost killed him. I like the shadowdancer. To bad my character can't qualify.
Egres 08-01-04, 11:05 PM	Invisible Blade?
danielinthewolvesden 08-02-04, 12:50 AM	TWF is good, thus 2 levels of ranger can be very helpful. OTOH, a one level dip into Shadowdancer is a great move. Rogue is fine for all the way, but these two will be nice.
Edymnion 08-02-04, 01:02 AM	Originally posted by B Rob And if you take Edymnion's suggestion: Please note I never said anything about replacing a Fighter. A maxxed out TWF Rogue is all about dicing them before they ever get a chance to fight back. A rogue on the front line is a dead rogue. But throwing in the 4 levels of fighter helps boost your Fort save (useful for poison), gives you some extra hp padding, and gives you proficiency in shields for when you need them, plus access to better weapons (the Heavy/Light pick combo is a favorite of mine). You don't lose out on much of your Sneak Attack, and the skillpoint loss is negligable. Throw in Improved Initiative and a surprise round, and a decked out Rogue/Fighter will make sure the opponent never even gets a chance to fight back. Lay an ambush, use your surprise action to Sneak Attack. Improved Init and a high dex means you're pretty much guarenteed to win init, and you can go into a full attack. Nothing of your CR should be able to stand up to that kind of punishment.
BlaineTog 08-02-04, 01:04 AM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables Assassins are super cool. Their spell list is of little use but if you keep a nice selection of poison on hand then you can do some serious damage. That and the death attack is the sweetest.My Swift Slayer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284067) does basically what the Assasin does, but can be neutral/Good. [/shameless plug] Personally, I find the spell list of the Assasin to be extremely useful, but I've always been partial to utility spells. The Invisible Blade is definatelly awesome for the melee rogue, especailly since it can allow you to get sneak attack on virtually every attack, with or without flankers and invisibility. This month's Mind's Eye released a Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). IMO, there are some really awesome Psionic feats for the Rogue to pluck, and the Psychic Rogue is in the perfect position to pluck them (although you'de do fine using them with a normal rogue, as well). My favorite type of rogue by far is the halfling archer with a ring of invisiblity. This guy is especially effective if the Sorcerer/Wizard of the party knows (and uses) Web a lot; its just like shooting fish in a barrel. And if you want to sneak anywhere, you are at a great advantage.
SALDAR 08-02-04, 02:23 AM	All of the suggestions so far seem to be along the lines of combat oriented builds. This is only fair as TheSilentF asked for weapons/PRCs, the weapons suggesting combat. The sneak attack damage is nice but is only one aspect of the class. I have a Rogue 13/Professional Thief 1 (PRC from the boards using the 10 level version). His best weapon is a Light Mace +2, although he uses his Rapier +1 if combat is necessary. He doesn't choose to enter combat. As a Rogue he leaves the fighting to the fighters, barbarians, rangers, and paladins, you know, the big dumb targets. Fighting is not his job. Being sneaky, yes. Bypassing traps, yes. Remaining unseen, yes. Unlocking locks, yes. Fighting, NO WAY IN THE ABYSS!! His view is that if he has to enter combat then he screwed up. He was seen, caught in the act, or whatever. He has high Int and Dex. The former for more skill points and both to enhance his capabilities with the skills in which he focuses, as a character and with the skill focus feat. Yes, someone does use that feat. In fact all of his feats go towards adding bonuses to his skills, there's not a single combat feat the lot. As for playing him, he is one of my most enjoyable characters in my 2 1/2 decades of D&D. He does have a quirk that has proven valuable to his party. He collects containers, mostly extradimensional ones, that allow him to carry such a wide variety of items that he has something for almost any situation. One of the player characters in my group needed a magnifying glass during the adventure. Without pryor knowledge of exactly what my character was carrying and without asking beforehand he said "Give a magnifying glass." Without hesitation I responded with "Here you go." The other players looked at the two of us a little stunned. From that point on if a situation comes up where a specific item would be of use they ask my Rogue if he has that item, he usually has two. Rogues are not fighters. They can sometimes be used to a much greater benefit to the party in their own "role."
fruits and vegetables 08-02-04, 02:38 AM	blaintog, let me rephrase. I have gamed under some DM's that let those spells serve little use. Invisibility is of no use if every time you use it the opponents have a way of detecting you. I have had a DM that for the most part does not allow a lot of utility spells. You can use them, they are worthless but you can use them. He has this aversion to the players getting a jump on the encounter. It almost never happened. As a matter of fact, i do not recall it ever happening. The spells can only be effective as the DM lets them. In my case they have been pretty much useless. That is what i should have said. Heck, the assassins death attack and poison use have served littled to no purpose in those games. It is still cool, just worthless in those games. Really, the only effective classes to play in those games were fighter types or clerics and rogues built as fighter types. He never even allowed clerics to turn undead.
SALDAR 08-02-04, 03:02 AM	fnv, If your DM is not letting you play characters using their class features then it is time to expand his horizons or let someone else DM. After all it is a ROLEplaying game and there are more roles than just fighter. The game is supposed to be enjoyable too all participants. What's the use of having a Corvette if your not allowed out of first gear?
BlaineTog 08-02-04, 03:07 AM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables blaintog, let me rephrase. I have gamed under some DM's that let those spells serve little use. Invisibility is of no use if every time you use it the opponents have a way of detecting you. I have had a DM that for the most part does not allow a lot of utility spells. You can use them, they are worthless but you can use them. He has this aversion to the players getting a jump on the encounter. It almost never happened. As a matter of fact, i do not recall it ever happening.Sounds like a bad DM to me, worthy of his very own WaPtD? rant. The spells can only be effective as the DM lets them.This is true of all spells, however. If the DM acts reasonably (ie every 3rd level gaurd isn't endowed with continuous truesight as a standard part of training), then they can usually have uses from time to time. I particularly enjoy finding evil combat uses for supposedly "out-of-combat" spells.
fruits and vegetables 08-02-04, 03:27 AM	SALDAR, It's cool man. He does not DM me anymore. It took me a few years to understand that he was a poor DM but he has not been my DM since late last year. Nor will he be in the future.
ElvenEnigma 08-02-04, 03:48 AM	If you have feats to spare (or want to dip into levels of fighter) try taking a feat to allow you to be proficient with the elven lightblade. It does the damage of a rapier with the same crit range, but is considered a light weapon (nice for TWF). The elven thinblade is nice too, but dual wielding two lightblades would probably be better. Oh, and disarming is fun stuff! My DM has lately resorted to monsters that don't use manufactured weapons. Sneak attacks are fun....disarming an ogre mage's greatsword with an elven lightblade...priceless:D Peace
RogerWilco 08-02-04, 08:20 AM	Originally posted by SALDAR From that point on if a situation comes up where a specific item would be of use they ask my Rogue if he has that item, he usually has two. [/B] I play thieves in second edition, and this is exactly like my halfling thief ;-) I'm not so skilled with 3rd edition, but I like to multiclass with 2 levels of ranger to boost combat capability either for TWF or rangerd attacks and still being able to max hide/move silently, maybe add some ride or knowledge(dungeoneering) or something like that. I'm currently trying to find out if rogue/druid is nice, wild shape, camouflage, meld into stone, spider climb, boosting spells for that sneak attack maybe. and the fort/will saves complement those of the rogue.
RogerWilco 08-02-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by SALDAR From that point on if a situation comes up where a specific item would be of use they ask my Rogue if he has that item, he usually has two. [/B] I play thieves in second edition, and this is exactly like my halfling thief ;-) I'm not so skilled with 3rd edition, but I like to multiclass with 2 levels of ranger to boost combat capability either for TWF or rangerd attacks and still being able to max hide/move silently, maybe add some ride or knowledge(dungeoneering) or something like that. I'm currently trying to find out if rogue/druid is nice, wild shape, camouflage, meld into stone, spider climb, boosting spells for that sneak attack maybe. and the fort/will saves complement those of the rogue.
Lina_Inverse 08-02-04, 08:52 AM	any build that sacrafices sneak attack is not effcient,compare +2 damege on all attacks(Weapon spec) verus +2d6 on all attacks(SNEAK ATTACK!)
Zelphi 08-02-04, 09:21 AM	When sneak attack dies it's more useful... on critical hits that aren't sneak attacks - it's more useful. TWF might help you get more sneak attacks out, but it also commits you to actions. If you're trying to focus on Sneak attack output, then the Azn's spells are great, and so is their death attack ability combined with poison. If you're not trying to replace the Fighter, then Sneak attack and killing should be about killing people, not hacking and slashing your way through them.
meabolex 08-02-04, 10:36 AM	I've seen a lot of melee rogues die. It's not because their players made poor choices or were idiots in general -- it's just because the rogue has fairly low AC and fairly low hit points. Tough melee characters can easily rip through rogues -- and a simple first-level spell (obscuring mist) can easily negate the sneak attack. I think the TWF route for rogues is extremely risky. Other builds may deal a lot less damage in ideal circumstances -- but the rogue doesn't have a very high survivability in melee combat. If you want TWF, go fighter with armor spikes and a greatsword. IMHO, rogues work best as ranged attackers with the capacity to enter melee combat if necessary. Weapon finesse is about all I'd ever take as far as melee-oriented rogue feats. If you MUST go TWF, don't bother with figher levels -- max Constitution and get a ring of blink very quickly (:
Lina_Inverse 08-02-04, 10:40 AM	Originally posted by meabolex I think the TWF route for rogues is extremely risky. Other builds may deal a lot less damage in ideal circumstances -- but the rogue doesn't have a very high survivability in melee combat. If you want TWF, go fighter with armor spikes and a greatsword. great sword?*chuckle*.better idea,if you must go 2-weapon fighting....DONT!two weapon fighting is only good on sneak attacks,it does FAR less damege than power attacking great swords without sneak attack. actually a two-weapon fighting thrown dagger rogue looks promiseing.
Beamup 08-02-04, 10:55 AM	Ranged SAs really aren't that good an option. You can't flank with a ranged weapon, so you're limited to denying the target Dex bonus - first round and invisibility only, for the most part. Extremely limited. Whereas melee TWF, done correctly, is just about as good in those situations AND can work outside of them. Any situation where you can use a ranged SA, you can use a melee SA in relative safety (the target either can't react or can't attack you effectively). And melee SAs let you flank to get them, too.
meabolex 08-02-04, 11:40 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse great sword?*chuckle*.better idea,if you must go 2-weapon fighting....DONT!two weapon fighting is only good on sneak attacks,it does FAR less damege than power attacking great swords without sneak attack. Well, the benefit of using a great sword and armor spikes is that you can apply 1.5 times your strength modifier for your great sword attacks -- giving 25% more strength-based damage in general. Also, it's a lot more difficult to disarm someone of a great sword and armor spikes (being impossible to disarm) than it is to disarm someone with 2 short swords. Also, you can utilize 2-for-1 Power Attack without having to draw another weapon later (using a longsword/short sword setup). For a fighter who has plenty of feats to blow, great sword and armor spikes is an excellent TWF combination.
meabolex 08-02-04, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Beamup Whereas melee TWF, done correctly, is just about as good in those situations AND can work outside of them. Any situation where you can use a ranged SA, you can use a melee SA in relative safety (the target either can't react or can't attack you effectively). But what about after the attack? If I'm a big nasty monster, I'm typically going to go after whatever did the most damage to me. If the rogue dealt the most damage in the first round, I'm going after him. It's a lot harder for me to go after that rogue if there's a fighter and/or a cleric in the way. It's easy to pummel him if he's right beside me. There are several methods used to make effective ranged sneak attacks. But the most important method is the effective use of light sources. Running into an area of shadowy illumination and attempting a hide check can make many rogues virtually invisible. Shooting while hidden and then moving to another location in the shadowy illumination is a great strategy. Note that this isn't sniping -- sniping involves staying in one place. Half-elves and elves can make great use of shadowy illumination with low-light vision. Sadly, many players and DMs don't use these concepts heavily because they're too complicated.
Addi83 08-02-04, 11:55 AM	I'm gonna recommend the Assassin class. It works for me. I've also heard good things about the thief-acrobat, but haven't tried it myself.
Lokiyn 08-02-04, 12:33 PM	personally i dislike the majority of the Prc's out there but for a sneaky rouge nothing is better than a shadowdancer. If you have a wizard who can cast continual flame on a copper and then put it in a small slitted box so that it cast shadows all throughout a room its awsome.
Lina_Inverse 08-02-04, 12:37 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn personally i dislike the majority of the Prc's out there but for a sneaky rouge nothing is better than a shadowdancer. If you have a wizard who can cast continual flame on a copper and then put it in a small slitted box so that it cast shadows all throughout a room its awsome. shadow dancer is pathetic,you lose sneak attack.its a bard PrC a rogue should NEVER take it...EVER.
starfire311 08-02-04, 01:34 PM	Look at invisible blade... i think it is very strong also take a look at the Dervish they may make an interesting rogue. and I have enjoyed arcane trickster sneak attack+scorching Ray is pretty cool.
ElvenEnigma 08-02-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by meabolex But the most important method is the effective use of light sources. Running into an area of shadowy illumination and attempting a hide check can make many rogues virtually invisible. Shooting while hidden and then moving to another location in the shadowy illumination is a great strategy. Note that this isn't sniping -- sniping involves staying in one place. Half-elves and elves can make great use of shadowy illumination with low-light vision. Sadly, many players and DMs don't use these concepts heavily because they're too complicated. This sounds like a good idea...but wouldn't you still take a -20 penalty to your hide check? From the SRD "It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." Peace
danielinthewolvesden 08-02-04, 03:01 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse shadow dancer is pathetic,you lose sneak attack.its a bard PrC a rogue should NEVER take it...EVER. Wrongo. A one level "dip" into Shadowdancer gets you "hide in plain sight"- which is very, very nice indeed.
Lina_Inverse 08-02-04, 03:04 PM	Originally posted by ElvenEnigma This sounds like a good idea...but wouldn't you still take a -20 penalty to your hide check? From the SRD "It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." Peace then you suck as a hider,you should be getting 50+ on 1s.ive seen a rogue with hide in plain sight,we eventully just stopped even trying to make spot checks.
meabolex 08-02-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by ElvenEnigma This sounds like a good idea...but wouldn't you still take a -20 penalty to your hide check? From the SRD "It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." Oh, I'm not arguing with that (: This is what I'm presenting: Beginning of half-elf rogue's turn -- he double moves into the shadowy illumination. Since the rogue has +X to hide (where X is a lot for his level), he easily makes his hide check. On his next turn, the rogue makes a single ranged attack against a creature outside the shadowy illumination. Since he was hiding relative to everyone, that creature is denied his dex bonus and rogue gets a sneak attack. After that attack, EDIT: everyone automatically knows where the rogue is -- he is no longer hiding. As a move action (still the rogue's second turn), the rogue moves 15 ft. away from the place where he was in the shadowy illumination. He rolls a new hide vs. spot check because it's a different instance from where he attacked. Now the enemies who saw the rogue briefly when he made that attack only know the last known location of the rogue. If they didn't roll a high enough spot check after the rogue moved, they don't know for sure where he is now -- but they do know where he moved. The only negative to this approach is that the rogue doesn't get to make a lot of full attack actions. It's even better with Shot on the Run, because the rogue can move, attack, and move again with virtually no chance of detection (except when he makes the attack).
Lokiyn 08-02-04, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Dipping.... Originally posted by Lina_Inverse anti-sacrifice prc.... Sorry i have the urge to stangle you both.... in a more civil note personally dipping is a horrible concept because mainly it decreases your bab total and is just a bad idea game wise.(Dnd is more than numbers) Prc's should Sacrifice something of thier bse classes in order to enhance a specific aspect of it. I "lose" sneak attack boohoo. on the other hand i have multiple shadow slaves who can scout like only a shadow can. I don't even need to worry about locked doors and enemies because i can bypass locks and enemies never find me. If you want the ultimate infiltrater shadowdancers are the way to go. If for example you feel so inclined the party keeps a dragon busy while you go back in and swipe your max load worth of treasre while your shadows reach up from beneath the dragon to drain its strength. (you did have your shadows scout out the trasure location right?) then shadow jump out and the party retreats. Split up the loot. everyone gains some exp.(not as much as a kill but some none the less) Need to rescue someone? shadows locate you jump as close as possible, hide, disguise yourself as a servent bring in lunch. knock the prisoner out pick them up and jump to safety. there are hoards of non-combat sides to the game and thats what a shadow dancer is all about. I've seen a dangerous build where a monk have vows of poverty, peace, nonviolence where they ran into enemies and the diplo-monk converts the enemy into allies! Poisons can make up for sneak attack loss Shadow's strength drain is the most awsome ability ever. so lets see + teleportation skill - Sneak attack + Shadow scouts + Str Drain shadows + Hide skills of doooooom;) ______________________ = excellent non combat support character who can provide much much more than a rogue outside of a hack and slash adventure. i summon the lord of nightmares to smite thee GIGA-SLAVE!
ElvenEnigma 08-02-04, 05:16 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse then you suck as a hider,you should be getting 50+ on 1s.ive seen a rogue with hide in plain sight,we eventully just stopped even trying to make spot checks. First off, I never said anything about being a poor hider. I was just confused with what meabolex said. Second, not every rogue will have a "50+" on their hide checks. It depends on their level mostly. And straight up rogues don't even have access to hide in plain sight. My current rogue only has a +10 to hide checks...granted he took 3 levels in fighter, but not every rogue is going to have insane hide mods. Anyway, that's sound like a really good idea meabolex...I'll have to try that with my half-elf rogue and see how it works. Kudos. Peace
Egres 08-02-04, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn Sorry i have the urge to stangle you both.... in a more civil note personally dipping is a horrible concept because mainly it decreases your bab total and is just a bad idea game wise.(Dnd is more than numbers) Prc's should Sacrifice something of thier bse classes in order to enhance a specific aspect of it. I "lose" sneak attack boohoo. on the other hand i have multiple shadow slaves who can scout like only a shadow can. I don't even need to worry about locked doors and enemies because i can bypass locks and enemies never find me. If you want the ultimate infiltrater shadowdancers are the way to go. If for example you feel so inclined the party keeps a dragon busy while you go back in and swipe your max load worth of treasre while your shadows reach up from beneath the dragon to drain its strength. (you did have your shadows scout out the trasure location right?) then shadow jump out and the party retreats. Split up the loot. everyone gains some exp.(not as much as a kill but some none the less) Need to rescue someone? shadows locate you jump as close as possible, hide, disguise yourself as a servent bring in lunch. knock the prisoner out pick them up and jump to safety. there are hoards of non-combat sides to the game and thats what a shadow dancer is all about. I've seen a dangerous build where a monk have vows of poverty, peace, nonviolence where they ran into enemies and the diplo-monk converts the enemy into allies! Poisons can make up for sneak attack loss Shadow's strength drain is the most awsome ability ever. so lets see + teleportation skill - Sneak attack + Shadow scouts + Str Drain shadows + Hide skills of doooooom;) ______________________ = excellent non combat support character who can provide much much more than a rogue outside of a hack and slash adventure. i summon the lord of nightmares to smite thee GIGA-SLAVE! From the SRD: Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion. If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days. Only one shadow.
PhaedrusXY 08-02-04, 06:36 PM	I haven't seen my favorite rogue Prestige Classes mentioned here. The Teflemmar Shadowlord PrC is in the Unapproachable East supplement to the Forgotten Realms. It gives you the amazing ability to make a full attack immediatly after using a teleportation type spell, spells, and a Death Attack who's DC stacks with Assassin levels. Assassin also offers one of the ways to qualify for the PrC. The Ninja Spy is in Oriental Adventures, and makes an incredible sneaky/acrobatic type character. They get all good saves, some very cool special abilities, and some neat exotic weapon proficiencies. Also in Oriental Adventures, the Bayushi Deciever is another great rogue PrC. It is in the back of the book in the section describing the Scorpion Clan. (Page 222 I think). The chain (or blunt chain, as it's sometimes called) is a weapon in Oriental Adventures that is great for rogues, also. It has the exact same mechanics as a spiked chain, except it's damage is reduced to 1d6, but can be weilded as a double weapon OR a reach weapon. And there is the core Ninja class from the Rokugan campaign book. Although not a WotC product technically, and not a PrC, it is worthy of mention here. It has full BAB progression (as a figher), and full Sneak Attack progression (as a rogue). It is also available online for free as an example of what to find in that book.
danielinthewolvesden 08-02-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY The Teflemmar Shadowlord PrC is in the Unapproachable East supplement to the Forgotten Realms. It gives you the amazing ability to make a full attack immediatly after using a teleportation type spell, spells, and a Death Attack who's DC stacks with Assassin levels. Assassin also offers one of the ways to qualify for the PrC. The Shadowlord presents enourmous Roleplaying & background problems. I admit- it is a great PrC powerwise. Assassins are not something that one should enter into just becuase they make your rogue better. Assassins are extremely Evil, and generally sociopaths. They really aren't "just another PrC".
Vaelan 08-02-04, 09:00 PM	As a move action (still the rogue's second turn), the rogue moves 15 ft. away from the place where he was in the shadowy illumination. He rolls a new hide vs. spot check because it's a different instance from where he attacked. Now the enemy who saw the rogue briefly when he made that attack only knows the last known location of the rogue. He didn't roll a high enough spot check when the rogue moved away from where he attacked. Sniping is an exception to the normal hiding rules. Normally, one can hide as part of a Move action. However, when sniping, the Hide check is a Move-Equivalent action. In case you haven't been following, this means you don't have an action left to move/hide with. Further, besides this situation being mechanically incorrect, this entire situation reeks of treating D&D like a video game, where you can exploit the static rules for your benefit. I assure you this is not the case in any well-run game.
meabolex 08-02-04, 09:45 PM	Normally, one can hide as part of a Move action. You can hide as part of a move action or as a move action. From Skip's movement article: According to the Hide skill description, hiding isn't an action at all, except when you use the sniping option (see page 76 in the Player's Handbook), in which case hiding is a move action. For all practical purposes, however, you hide as a move action or as part of a move action. That is, if you're moving, you hide as part of your movement (something like drawing a weapon, see Part 2). If you don't move, it still takes you a move action to hide. However, when sniping, the Hide check is a Move-Equivalent action. In case you haven't been following, this means you don't have an action left to move/hide with. Who sniped? I didn't mention taking the sniping penalty? I'm simply attacking. The sniping action, which allows for me to essentially stay in one place and ping my enemy to death while trying to remain undetected, is much more difficult to counter if I do it successfully. That's because there's no listen check to try to oppose my move silently check -- because I didn't move, there's no move silently roll. The enemies, if they fail their spot check, have no way of finding me short of divination or some other magically/extraordinarily augmented means. This is one reason why snipers are so feared in war. With the method of hit and run in shadowy illumination (which can be used to great effect by (half-)elves with low-light vision), the NPCs get to roll two opposed checks against me. The first check is the move silently check to move 15 ft. away from my location. The third check is yet another hide check (which I do as part of my movement) without the -20 penalty. This is riskier than hiding and requires an extra skill. It also assumes that there's ample room to move around and ample shadowy illumination. Edit: I see the flaw in my initial argument (: There's actually no hiding check when I make my attack. I was already hidden from the previous round -- meaning my next attack would automatically reveal me -- without a check at all. However, I would still be able to move at that point in the shadowy illumination and attempt another hide check at no penalty.
Vaelan 08-03-04, 02:57 AM	If you want to hide immediately after an attack, it is sniping. If you do not attempt to hide immediately after attacking, you are being observed and thus cannot attempt to hide under normal circumstances. You would have to move completely out of their sight and come back, which probably wouldn't be all that easy given the 30 foot limit on ranged sneak attacks and having to move at half-speed to use your skills without penalty.
Lokiyn 08-03-04, 04:24 AM	Originally posted by Egres Only one shadow. The above still stands. Shadow/shadows so i tend to reflexivly pluralize shadows a single shadow can still do all the above. And thank you, you reminded me the shadow can't be turned or rebuked or controled by a third party. More + to the shadow!
meabolex 08-03-04, 08:14 AM	Originally posted by Vaelan If you want to hide immediately after an attack, it is sniping. Which I don't want to do (: If you do not attempt to hide immediately after attacking, you are being observed and thus cannot attempt to hide under normal circumstances. Yes, but since I'm in shadowy illumination, I can attempt a hide check when I move from my position -- I'm in an area of concealment. But under normal circumstances I wouldn't be able to hide. You would have to move completely out of their sight and come back, which probably wouldn't be all that easy given the 30 foot limit on ranged sneak attacks and having to move at half-speed to use your skills without penalty. No, it's not as easy as sniping -- just less skill dependent (: Part of the process assumes that the enemies move into the shadowy illumination area that I consider bright light because of my low-light vision; they most likely want to get me after all. In this area, I can move and fire without penalty -- but I can also attempt hide checks. In the later levels (with a +10 ring of chameleon power, perhaps skill focus: hide/sneaky), attempting a sniping check should be nearly trivial. This strategy only applies to specific situations during the early levels -- particularly against things like NPC human fighters. Note this entire strategy is usually foiled by darkvision -- so it's not really that big of a deal (:
trapspringer 08-03-04, 11:08 AM	Weapon specialization is a waste of time. Compared to the SA damage you do, 2 damage is worthless. You are far better off taking deadly precision, which allows you to re-roll 1's on SA dice. TWF is also basically garbage, because you need all those feats for quick-draw, flick of the wrist, and hurling charge. I am currently making use of this strategy with a SA thug varient from UA. With my 5d6 SA, I basically open up with two thrown daggers, followed by a flick-o-the-wrist and a palmed dagger (CW), then hopefully some dead bad-guys. Thats 10d6 a round. A level 10 rouge can pull this off almost just as easily as a SA thug. I don't see any reason to prestige-class from this, as it is clearly effective and many more feats will fit nicely into all this, such as I.initiative, that feat that lets you re-roll initiative, arterial strike, find the weak spot, Hamstring, etc. All in all, SA is very powerful some of the time, but worthless occasionally. So if you go all out combat, bring a G. Sword.
The Designated Rogue 08-04-04, 06:22 PM	Try taking the Dervish PrC with classes of Rogue. You'll pull out some wicked damage when you've taken all 10 levels of it. You'll basically be able to TWF with two scimitars with normal TWF penalties because with Dervish you can eventually treat a scimitar as a light weapon.... It also can give you Spring Attack eventually as well. Take Improved Critical with a Scimitar to crit. on a 15-20. With that sneak attack damage coupled with Dervish abilities... Well hehe think about it. I guess thats why this is such a abusive PrC...
Vaelan 08-04-04, 08:14 PM	Yes, but since I'm in shadowy illumination, I can attempt a hide check when I move from my position -- I'm in an area of concealment. But under normal circumstances I wouldn't be able to hide. No, you can't. You cannot attempt a Hide check if you are being observed unless you have the Hide in Plain Sight ability, which is not mentioned in any of your posts.
smrtgmp 08-05-04, 08:21 AM	I like the master thrower, especially when combined with a small rogue.
meabolex 08-05-04, 10:34 AM	Originally posted by Vaelan No, you can't. You cannot attempt a Hide check if you are being observed unless you have the Hide in Plain Sight ability, which is not mentioned in any of your posts. Well, that's a good point (: A quick way to fix that problem is to move into what appears to be shadowy illumination to you after you fire -- because that area is total darkness to those without low-light vision and darkvision (again, this assumes low-light vision). That also eliminates the need for a hide check at all. Then you simply walk out of the shadowy illumination (actually darkness) while hiding and fire again.
KevvyD 08-05-04, 12:50 PM	Great topic! I love playing rogues, and what is best for them really depends on what you want to do with them. I have not ever gone down the heavy-combat road with them, as I like to play the sneak. As a friend of mine refers to it, a reconnaissance and access technician (RAT). For that, the most fun I've had is as a rogue/shadowdancer. The hide in plain sight at first level is great, the darkvision at second always handy if you didn't have it as a race feature, the shade pet useful for snooping around ahead and keeping an eye out for you while you're busy or sleeping, and the shadow jump ideal for bugging out to a position where you can flee when you inevitably get spotted. As for the best weapon, when playing a rogue I'm partial to the rapier for the fat criticals. Of course, we play with some pretty hard-core critical tables that make it worthwhile. Playing straight rules I'd probably go with it anyway - for the flair if nothing else.
ShadowRouge 08-05-04, 12:59 PM	assasigns r awsume they get lots of poisen stuff adn spider climb( kets u climg up walls) and death attack ( hide and watch an enemy w/o them seein u for 3 rounds them sneak attack them ... if u hit them there dead)
Qui-Gon Jinn 08-05-04, 09:34 PM	There are so many good prestige classes for the Rogue (Thief). Here's some of the many choices you have: Arcane Archer Arcane Trickster Assassin Black Guard Blade Dancer Butei Dread Pirate Duelist Dungeon Delver Fang of Lolth Fida'i Guild Thief Harper Scout Houri Kolat Agent Ninja Outlaw of the Crimson Road Royal Explorer Shadow Dancer Shadow Scout Shadow Mage Shinjo Explorer Siegemaster Spymaster Temple Raider of Olidammara Thief Acrobat Vigilante Virtuoso Yakuza There are many others as well. Have fun choosing. ;)
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-05-04, 10:03 PM	Halfling throw rogues > all. Launching a hail of daggers, then vanishing as each one does 1d4+5d6+4 is a beautiful thing. Just make sure you aren't being 'balanced' with weapon sizing.
Bucklin 08-06-04, 05:59 PM	How about Spymaster there cool and you get a lot of cover id to:angel:
DragonsArt 10-04-04, 10:49 AM	blaintog, let me rephrase. I have gamed under some DM's that let those spells serve little use. Invisibility is of no use if every time you use it the opponents have a way of detecting you. I have had a DM that for the most part does not allow a lot of utility spells. You can use them, they are worthless but you can use them. He has this aversion to the players getting a jump on the encounter. It almost never happened. As a matter of fact, i do not recall it ever happening. The spells can only be effective as the DM lets them. In my case they have been pretty much useless. That is what i should have said. Heck, the assassins death attack and poison use have served littled to no purpose in those games. It is still cool, just worthless in those games. Really, the only effective classes to play in those games were fighter types or clerics and rogues built as fighter types. He never even allowed clerics to turn undead. I have extra large dice that do 1d4 points of damage to DMs like that. Seriously... find another group. Controlling, megomanical DMs like that are as obsolete as the Cold War era Soviet Union. Tear down the wall!
White rabbit 10-04-04, 02:25 PM	Dual weild shortswords, take weapon focus in said shortswords. Be a rogue 16/fighter 4 for weapon specialization in said shortswords. Take full TWF tree with help of fighter bonus feats to max out your sneak attack blender of death abilities. Don't bother with PrC, there are no good ones for Rogues. If you're going this route anyway, go for the Tempest from the Masters of the Wild.
Sildatorak 10-04-04, 05:26 PM	Dual weild shortswords, take weapon focus in said shortswords. Be a rogue 16/fighter 4 for weapon specialization in said shortswords. Take full TWF tree with help of fighter bonus feats to max out your sneak attack blender of death abilities. Don't bother with PrC, there are no good ones for Rogues. You're better off going with elven lightblades than shortswords…that way you can take 1 level of the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from Complete Warrior and get the exotic weapon trick that reduces the penalty for fighting with 2 exotic light weapons to -1. You're actually better off taking a different feat than weapon specialization most of the time. +2/attack is nice, but it isn't as nice as some of the other things you can do with one more feat. Another advantage of 4 levels of fighter is that your BAB will hit +16 at level 20, opening up the doors for an extra pair of attacks in epic levels. If you are concerned about your AC either take Improved Buckler Defense or a few feats in the Two Weapon Defense chain. If you are dual wielding elven light blades (and have the appropriate exotic weapon trick), have all 3 feats in the TWD chain, 5+ ranks in Tumble, you can be at -5 to attack (compared to a single weapon attack) for a +9 bonus to your armor class. Considering that you are at -3 vs "standard" TWF, that isn't bad at all.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-04-04, 08:29 PM	No one has yet mentioned the Elocater class. First level and they can move without any chance of be tracked with their continuous, free levitation. They no longer trigger pressure or weight traps, and no longer must worry about falling, and can move over fissures, water, you name it, plus walking up to windows or jumping from one with impunity, thus rendering the balance and climb skill obsolete, plus possibly jump. The rest of the abilities seriously improves the mobility of any active rogue and works right alongside their other theifly powers.
Helmed Horror 10-04-04, 08:34 PM	always thought a couple levels of kensai would make an interesting rouge, but emphasis on a couple. Perhaps Rouge-7 Kensai-4 Rouge-9 and for those like I with the negative INT. mods... the total is Rouge 16/Kensai-4.
Shadowmagyk 10-05-04, 03:54 AM	I sometimes play my Rogue in the exact way that Edymnion suggests. Anyway, I am currently playing a ROG 4/ FIG 2/ Thief-Acrobat/ Lasher. I have Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, EWP:Whip (using a whip-dagger), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Quicker Than the Eye, Expert Tactician, Deadly Precision, and I am not sure about the feats for 15th and 18th lvl.
green_yawgmoth 10-05-04, 12:42 PM	If you get Sword & Fist, the Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC is really cool. Full SA progression, invisibility ninja levels/day, and always taking 10 on move silently/hide are just a few of the bonuses. http://photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Kitt-su 10-05-04, 08:17 PM	First level, improved unarmed strike. Best rogue I ever played. Oh ya weres that quiz thing that gives you the stats, race, and class?
Vanigo 10-05-04, 09:01 PM	First level, improved unarmed strike. Best rogue I ever played. Oh ya weres that quiz thing that gives you the stats, race, and class? That's hardly what I'd call a power build, but it does sound like fun. Biggest problem you've got at low levels is the pathetic damage die. At higher levels, you lose out on magic weapons. Of course, I suppose you could use weapons at higher levels, but then you're kinda wasting the feat, and rogues don't get many.
Sildatorak 10-05-04, 11:04 PM	At higher levels, you lose out on magic weapons. Not if your DM allows Bracers of Striking from Magic of Faerun. They let you enchant your unarmed strikes as a double blunt weapon.
starfire311 10-06-04, 08:46 AM	First level, improved unarmed strike. Best rogue I ever played. Oh ya weres that quiz thing that gives you the stats, race, and class? If were gonna do the unarmed rogue thing I would multi-class a few levels with Monk... Instead of spending a feat on improved unarmed strike. As for the quiz... check out my sig
Duke Lupo 10-07-04, 10:27 PM	TWF is not a bad idea at all, especially if you take Off Hand Parry and have a Defending Dagger. My fave. rogue char. was a rogue/fighter/duelist, but that was mainly because my buddy was a rogue/fighter/master of chains. DM started using lots of undead because we would tumble into flanking positions and SA everything to death.
Shadowmagyk 10-07-04, 10:33 PM	First level, improved unarmed strike. Best rogue I ever played. Oh ya weres that quiz thing that gives you the stats, race, and class? http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/