Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrandor 02-24-08, 04:03 AM	I've read many place that it is broken and that many people are houseruling it out of their game... and I must ask, why? Maybe there's something I'm just missing... but if my level 4, 16hp, 8str wizard use it to turn into an ogre... I'm going to be an ogre with 16hp and 8str. :eek: Sure. I get an increased reach. I probably get some natural armor and some darkvision or what not... but yeah, that hardly sounds overpowered. Keep in mind that my DM doesn't let me browse the MM, and even if we did, he said I could only turn into monsters that I my character knows exist. I'm guessing the spell become more powerful when used by someone who use metagaming knowledge... but even so, what monster suddenly make this spell broken?
Neo_Leviathan 02-24-08, 06:38 AM	Alter self isn't hugely broken (unlike Polymorph). Your claim about the 16hp, 8str ogre is actually incorrect, you gain the same stats as the monster. Ie, if you turned into an ogre, you'd still have 16hp, but you'd be large, with an ogre's strength. There are many tricks, turn yourself into a Lizardfolk or Troglodyte for the very nice natural armor increase, that kind of thing. The DM houserule of only being able to turn into things you're familiar with IC goes a long way to balancing the spell.
runestar 02-24-08, 06:38 AM	You need to think bigger. [3.5]Forms for Alter Self (PhaedrusXY) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=176246) A few examples... Avariel grants you flight. Trolodyte gives you +6NA. Tren (serpent kingdoms) gives +8NA and natural weapons. If you are an outsider (such as an elf with the otherworldly feat), the benefits of transforming into a ravid (+15NA!) or DWARF ANCESTOR (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) (+18NA!!) are pretty much self explanatory. And these are just the tip of the iceberg. The effectiveness of alter self is really limited only by your imagination...and the number of splatbooks you own.:D Your claim about the 16hp, 8str ogre is actually incorrect, you gain the same stats as the monster. No you don't. You retain your base stats.
Azezel 02-24-08, 10:21 AM	I've never heard it called broken, it's a good spell, but hardly Polymorph or 3e Haste. Also, using it in combat is at best a bad solution. Whatever you turn into, you still have a Wizard's BaB and weapon profficiencies. It's best use is to turn into things like Raptorans (fly) or Aventi (breath under water).
runestar 02-24-08, 08:39 PM	I've never heard it called broken, it's a good spell, but hardly Polymorph or 3e Haste. You haven't been looking at the list, have you? Elan wizard casts alter self to transform into a choker, then uses assume supernatural ability to nab its quickness ability. Presto - 2 standard actions each round.;)
Sinfire Titan 02-24-08, 09:03 PM	You haven't been looking at the list, have you? Elan wizard casts alter self to transform into a choker, then uses assume supernatural ability to nab its quickness ability. Presto - 2 standard actions each round.;) Or a Kobold Wizard with the same feat can turn into Pun-Pun by going into a phone booth.
Iktomi 02-24-08, 09:04 PM	If you are an outsider (such as an elf with the otherworldly feat), the benefits of transforming into a ravid (+15NA!) or DWARF ANCESTOR (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) (+18NA!!) are pretty much self explanatory. Ouch... though if one of my elf PCs was repetedly turning into a dwarf ancestor, I'd probably have evrey other elf he met stop speaking to him out of disgrace.
icuall 02-25-08, 05:49 PM	Not broken, just mis-applied.
StevenO 02-25-08, 06:16 PM	The odds are VERY good that your puny wizard CAN'T Alter himself into an Ogre. Note that Alter Self only lets you change form into a creature with the same type the caster has which means a humanoid wizard can't become a giant type ogre. With humanoid casters this solve a lot of potential problems with the spell provided you don't expand you list of available resources beyond CORE. Now as you venture away from the relatively "safe" humanoid type the spell's potential for brokeness goes up exponentially with outsider and abjuration giving a HUGE variaty of possibilities.
Kursk 02-25-08, 07:51 PM	The odds are VERY good that your puny wizard CAN'T Alter himself into an Ogre. Note that Alter Self only lets you change form into a creature with the same type the caster has which means a humanoid wizard can't become a giant type ogre. With humanoid casters this solve a lot of potential problems with the spell provided you don't expand you list of available resources beyond CORE. Now as you venture away from the relatively "safe" humanoid type the spell's potential for brokeness goes up exponentially with outsider and abjuration giving a HUGE variaty of possibilities. Sounds more like non-core material not taking core material into account than the spell being broken.
StevenO 02-25-08, 10:54 PM	Granted a lot of the "broken" stuff uses multiple sources outside of CORE (PHB, DMG, MM) if the other MMs spent to much time worrying about how they interacted with the CORE spells there wouldn't be anything new. Part of the problem with Monsters (and to some degree Spells) is how easy it is to expand a game and have them make an immediate impact. At least with a new Feat it may take a while before a player can use it and even then they are only gained so fast but a new monster can show up in the next encounter and a wizard add a new spell as soon as it is introduced.
bane2571 02-26-08, 01:17 AM	Using core only: Half dragon/medium humanoid Sorcerer 4/fighter X Needs At least 12 Cha (2nd level spells) Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2. ECL 7 + X Base stats: min 10 Cha, pump str and con. Take enlarge person as lvl 1 spell. (don't know if this step works but why not) alter self into huge black dragon, with bonuses from half dragon you probably have the stats of it too. A 7th level sorcerer gets 3rd level spells, polymorph is 4th level and lasts 1/10th the time. That may be a comment on the half dragon template more than alter self though and I'm not even sure of the power level of it since no one will let me play half-dragon for some strange reason.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 01:43 AM	Using core only: Half dragon/medium humanoid Sorcerer 4/fighter X Needs At least 12 Cha (2nd level spells) Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2. ECL 7 + X Base stats: min 10 Cha, pump str and con. Take enlarge person as lvl 1 spell. (don't know if this step works but why not) alter self into huge black dragon, with bonuses from half dragon you probably have the stats of it too. A 7th level sorcerer gets 3rd level spells, polymorph is 4th level and lasts 1/10th the time. That may be a comment on the half dragon template more than alter self though and I'm not even sure of the power level of it since no one will let me play half-dragon for some strange reason. Huge Black Dragons do NOT have 5 or less HD. The general application of Alter Self is applying templates to whatever you are morphing into, while still retaining the same type or gaining the type you are. Personally, Tibbits make for a great base race for the caster, as there are a lot of Monstrous Humanoids and a lot of templates that make things into MH.
Kursk 02-26-08, 09:50 AM	Using core only: Half dragon/medium humanoid Sorcerer 4/fighter X I couldn't find Half-dragons as a Core PC race in the PHB.
Drag0nUL 02-26-08, 10:19 AM	Core usually means PHB+DMG+MM(which contains half-dragon).
Kursk 02-26-08, 10:26 AM	Core usually means PHB+DMG+MM(which contains half-dragon). Sorry, half-dragon is not a Core PC race. That's like saying anything in the MM with ECL is a core PC race. Not.
Tytalus 02-26-08, 10:40 AM	Sorry, half-dragon is not a Core PC race. That's like saying anything in the MM with ECL is a core PC race. Not. I don't think anyone claimed that. Half-dragons are, however, core. And not a race, but a template.
Kursk 02-26-08, 10:54 AM	I don't think anyone claimed that. Half-dragons are, however, core. And not a race, but a template. Wow, must have missed that in the PHB section on Core races. Can you give me a page # in the PHB? :rolleyes:
Drag0nUL 02-26-08, 11:35 AM	Wow, must have missed that in the PHB section on Core races. Can you give me a page # in the PHB? :rolleyes: So you are claiming only PHB is core by your standard? And I'm not claiming anything in the MM with ECL is a core PC race. However everything in the MM is core.
Kursk 02-26-08, 11:41 AM	So you are claiming only PHB is core by your standard? And I'm not claiming anything in the MM with ECL is a core PC race. However everything in the MM is core. MM is CORE for monsters, not Core for PC Races. PHB is not the CORE reference for monsters, that's the MM.
Drag0nUL 02-26-08, 12:08 PM	MM is CORE for monsters, not Core for PC Races. PHB is not the CORE reference for monsters, that's the MM. That is your own opinion. The poster that started this debate said 'using core'(in this case both PHB and MM) not 'using core PC races'.
Magrus 02-26-08, 12:09 PM	MM is CORE for monsters, not Core for PC Races. PHB is not the CORE reference for monsters, that's the MM. You are missing the point that was trying be made. Material from that book is core. Whether or not the DM allows the material for monster races and templates to be used as PC races is up to the individual DM. Thats an individual call up to the DM. Either way, all of the material is all still core, despite the fact they aren't the standard, PHB races.
Kursk 02-26-08, 12:34 PM	You are missing the point that was trying be made. Material from that book is core. Whether or not the DM allows the material for monster races and templates to be used as PC races is up to the individual DM. Thats an individual call up to the DM. Either way, all of the material is all still core, despite the fact they aren't the standard, PHB races. No. My point was missed. Using Core character creation only the "brokeness" wasn't an issue.
Novabomb 02-26-08, 01:00 PM	No. My point was missed. Using Core character creation only the "brokeness" wasn't an issue. Your point wasn't missed, the people arguing with you do so because you are abusing terminology.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 01:05 PM	No. My point was missed. Using Core character creation only the "brokeness" wasn't an issue. You are telling me Humans are balanced then? Because many people will agree that Core is broken, even without the MM races.
Kursk 02-26-08, 01:13 PM	You are telling me Humans are balanced then? Because many people will agree that Core is broken, even without the MM races. I'm telling you what I said in my post. It was pretty clear.
Magrus 02-26-08, 01:18 PM	Your point wasn't missed, the people arguing with you do so because you are abusing terminology. Exactly. A communication form must be used properly in order to communicate effectively. When words and terminology aren't used properly, communication breaks down, and confusion occurs.
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-26-08, 01:41 PM	bane2571 said "using core only." A half-dragon sorc/fighter is core, as it uses nothing outside the PHB, DMG, and MM. http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/3e/mm35.jpg You'll notice the plaque at the bottom of the cover that reads CORE RULEBOOK III No one is arguing that there are half-dragons in the 3.5 PHB. bane2571 said that he was using core only. He was correct. If he had stated "using the standard PHB character creation process" than Kursk's argument might have a bit of merit. However, he didn't, and it doesn't. The issue at hand is the power level of Alter Self. I see your point, Kursk, that the "brokenness" becomes much less if you stick only to PHB. However, this is a very silly point. If you stick only to PHB, then what is there to Alter into? There are only 6 other races. And yes, it makes it less broken when your PC is PHB only and your new form is MM only. But introducing the half-dragon issue is valid, as it is designed in 3.5 as a viable PC option.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 01:41 PM	I'm telling you what I said in my post. It was pretty clear. I am having a hard time interpreting that post. Please clarify what you stated for me.
Kursk 02-26-08, 01:49 PM	I am having a hard time interpreting that post. Please clarify what you stated for me. "The odds are VERY good that your puny wizard CAN'T Alter himself into an Ogre. Note that Alter Self only lets you change form into a creature with the same type the caster has which means a humanoid wizard can't become a giant type ogre." See my point about sticking to Core player races when talking about Alter Self being "broken"?
cjhobbitbane 02-26-08, 01:51 PM	You are telling me Humans are balanced then? In general humans have lower dex than other races, so id say that they are likely to have worse balance than an elf or halfling.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 01:51 PM	"The odds are VERY good that your puny wizard CAN'T Alter himself into an Ogre. Note that Alter Self only lets you change form into a creature with the same type the caster has which means a humanoid wizard can't become a giant type ogre." See my point about sticking to PHB player races when talking about Alter Self being "broken"? Ok, that is more clear. And Fixed to be true.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 01:53 PM	In general humans have lower dex than other races, so id say that they are likely to have worse balance than an elf or halfling. I can safely say that I failed my Tumble check to avoid walking into that one.
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-26-08, 01:56 PM	See my point about sticking to Core player races when talking about Alter Self being "broken"? Yes, but you must remember that things such as "half-dragon" are core templates that can be applied to core player races, and will change the way things work. Maybe a better example is a sorceror getting turned into a vampire. Then he gets to work with undead-types for AS. Seriously, 3.5 created the LA system to easily allow for monstrous PCs. It is well within Core to have a half-fiend PC, or a kuo-toa PC, or whatever, especially when those creatures have sub-entries in a Core book titled "X as characters."
cjhobbitbane 02-26-08, 01:57 PM	I can safely say that I failed my Tumble check to avoid walking into that one. :D Lol
StevenO 02-26-08, 01:58 PM	Using core only: Half dragon/medium humanoid Sorcerer 4/fighter X Needs At least 12 Cha (2nd level spells) Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2. ECL 7 + X Base stats: min 10 Cha, pump str and con. Take enlarge person as lvl 1 spell. (don't know if this step works but why not) alter self into huge black dragon, with bonuses from half dragon you probably have the stats of it too. A 7th level sorcerer gets 3rd level spells, polymorph is 4th level and lasts 1/10th the time. That may be a comment on the half dragon template more than alter self though and I'm not even sure of the power level of it since no one will let me play half-dragon for some strange reason. Enlarge Person doesn't work on Half-Dragons. A half-Dragon is type DRAGON and Enlarge Person works on "Target Humanoid" so that part doesn't work. Now Alter Self WOULD allow the Half-Dragon to assume a True Dragon's form but the choices are rather limited due to the size and HD (max 5) restrictions. Looking through the SRD your only choice is Wyrming Green because everything else is either too small or has too many HD. As for no one ever playing a Half Dragon that has something to do with the LA +3 adjustment. That alone kills caster concept and means that warrior types need to be at least moderately high level to make it up. I have pulled the Half-Dragon Template out of the Dragon Disciple class and compressed what is left (including 10 HD) down to a seven level class availiable for LA +3 or better races.
Kursk 02-26-08, 02:00 PM	Yes, but you must remember that things such as "half-dragon" are core templates that can be applied to core player races, and will change the way things work. Maybe a better example is a sorceror getting turned into a vampire. Then he gets to work with undead-types for AS. Actually, "half-dragon" is NOT a player option at all. Read the DMG & PHB. It is an option for a DM to use. And with good reason it is not a choice for players. It is left to the DM as he/she has to be ready to deal with the unforeseen consequences.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 02:04 PM	:D Lol You know, somewhere someone read that joke, and is now on their way to my work with a +7 Holy Burst Golf Club.
cjhobbitbane 02-26-08, 02:05 PM	Actually, "half-dragon" is NOT a player option at all. Read the DMG & PHB. It is an option for a DM to use. And with good reason it is not a choice for players. It is left to the DM as he/she has to be ready to deal with the unforeseen consequences. I agree with that, in all campaigns i run only half-fiend and half-celestial templates are available to my players, and obviously only one depending on the campaign alignment. (this is of all the "half" templates, should an elf char wish to become a baelnorn, or during an evil campaign someone wish to become a lich i will usually allow it at high levels, templates should really be restricted to higher level characters, when a low level char gets a hold of one things can go south real fast.) You know, somewhere someone read that joke, and is now on their way to my work with a +7 Holy Burst Golf Club. I saw that once in dogma...the cardinal blessed his club and they killed a demon with it...
StevenO 02-26-08, 02:07 PM	Actually players DO have the options to become Half-Dragons provided the DM allows the prestige classes in the DMG. The Dragon Disciple eventually turns the character into a Half-Dragon and given how much (uncalled for) complaining I see about the class it use should be no problem.
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-26-08, 02:15 PM	Actually, "half-dragon" is NOT a player option at all. Read the DMG & PHB. It is an option for a DM to use. And with good reason it is not a choice for players. It is left to the DM as he/she has to be ready to deal with the unforeseen consequences. Half-dragon is a player option if the DM says so. At the beginning of every campaign, the DM lays the ground rules. He might say "Level 1, PHB only" or he might say "level 5, double starting gold, items from Core only" or he might say "ECL 7, Core only, no paladins allowed." It's the DM's game. The LA system was made to allow monstrous PCs (if it wasn't, there would be a +2 CR line on the half-dragon entry and no +3 LA line). There is no rule that says "Players are not allowed to have half-dragons!", though I believe that there is a passage somewhere about exercising caution in allowing monstrous PCs. The point is, you're completely wrong that PCs are not allowed to be half-dragons (unless you're talking about your own game, which is beside the point). You're close to the idea that a player needs DM permission to be a half-dragon, which is true. However, a player needs DM permission to be ANYTHING, even if they just want to be a dwarven fighter, the DM needs to allow it. I think your original idea (that Alter Self abuse is curtailed when the DM limits you to PHB races only) has merit, even though it comes close to the Oberoni Fallacy. However, now your argument has devolved into something that makes little sense to me, and this thread is growing increasingly off-topic.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 04:41 PM	I saw that once in dogma...the cardinal blessed his club and they killed a demon with it... That was the point of the reference. And it was Kevin Smith who did it. The punchline: "But I'm a F***ing Demon!?!?" "Go figure the cardinal blessed his golf club in hopes of having a better game."
cjhobbitbane 02-26-08, 04:44 PM	That was the point of the reference. And it was Kevin Smith who did it. The punchline: "But I'm a F***ing Demon!?!?" "Go figure the cardinal blessed his golf club in hopes of having a better game." :inlove: that movie is awesome. NO! DONT RUN, DONT RUN! You have done nothing wrong, you're a good person, but you didnt say bless you when i sneezed... Edit: back on topic, alter self is not OP, just make sure you're DM knows its limitations.
Sinfire Titan 02-26-08, 05:17 PM	:inlove: that movie is awesome. NO! DONT RUN, DONT RUN! You have done nothing wrong, you're a good person, but you didnt say bless you when i sneezed... Edit: back on topic, alter self is not OP, just make sure you're DM knows its limitations. It is one of the movies that people have to see before they die.
bane2571 02-27-08, 01:12 AM	:inlove: Edit: back on topic, alter self is not OP, just make sure you're DM knows its limitations. ^This.^ Thanks to everyone that pointed out the flaws in my argument. I missed the HD thing completely (I mean you keep your HP, why does HD even matter - Answer: so it isn't OP). It's also interesting that a half dragon is no longer a humanoid, there has to be some way to abuse that...HAH! immunity to charm, dominate and hold person, interesting. To the people arguing about Half-dragon as a core race. Of course half-dragon is a freaking core, player applicable template. There is a prestige class that has already been mentioned that exists solely to give that template (dragon disciple) I use the SRD for rules so it's all core (AFAIK) even if my reading comprehension is horrible.
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-27-08, 01:22 PM	To the people arguing about Half-dragon as a core race. Of course half-dragon is a freaking core, player applicable template. There is a prestige class that has already been mentioned that exists solely to give that template (dragon disciple) I use the SRD for rules so it's all core (AFAIK) even if my reading comprehension is horrible. Thank you. Anyway, it's kind of a moot point, since, as was pointed out, half-dragons only really have one AS option.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 03:59 PM	^This.^ Thanks to everyone that pointed out the flaws in my argument. I missed the HD thing completely (I mean you keep your HP, why does HD even matter - Answer: so it isn't OP). It's also interesting that a half dragon is no longer a humanoid, there has to be some way to abuse that...HAH! immunity to charm, dominate and hold person, interesting. To the people arguing about Half-dragon as a core race. Of course half-dragon is a freaking core, player applicable template. There is a prestige class that has already been mentioned that exists solely to give that template (dragon disciple) I use the SRD for rules so it's all core (AFAIK) even if my reading comprehension is horrible. Well, the variant rules at the bottom probably wouldn't be considered core.
malignor 02-27-08, 08:34 PM	You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. Bolded for emphasis. ... otherwise you could turn into any carnivorous mammal by becoming a were(animal) in animal form, not to mention hybrid forms. No, Alter Self is already a spell full of awesome and win. Especially with Share Spells and a familiar... which has differing results depending on your DM (mine said only animals). Example: My Sorcerer/Ranger/Eldritch Knight had both a familiar and an animal companion... - Alter Self + Heavy Horse Animal Companion = Shark, Dire Bat or Light Warhorse steed. Providing flight to a steed with a 2nd level spell is awesome. - Alter Self + Falcon Familiar = alternate familiars, like a viper (for poison harvest) or badger (with burrow speed) or octopus (for swimming) or dire rat (climbing and disease) - Alter Self + Humanoid type = +6 AC and natural weapons and +4 hide (Trog), or gills and a swim speed (aquatic elf) or a nice balanced utility & combat form (lizardfolk) or flight (winged elf, if in Faerun). Why learn Fly when I can do so much more with a 2nd level spell?!?
cjhobbitbane 02-28-08, 07:50 AM	... otherwise you could turn into any carnivorous mammal by becoming a were(animal) in animal form, not to mention hybrid forms. ive often wondered if there is such thing as a were-squirrel....
xdahnx 02-28-08, 09:51 AM	My grey elf wizard Alters into a Trog or Gnoll when he goes all out in battle form. Flying, Mage/Shield, and the +6 Nat AC helps!