Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malcaor 02-05-08, 05:14 PM	I'm usually the DM for my group of players, but one of them decided he wanted to try out DMing. So I was excited to try out one of my many character concepts I never get to try and play it. The group consisted of me using an optimized druid built around being raised by a Werefox. A good roleplayer playing a dwarven knight, 2 pretty good roleplayers being a sorcerer and ranger. Then 2 new players playing a Rogue and Cleric. My friend was running 2 adventures that I had previously run. Only me and the knight knew the adventures. It started out with a random combat out the DMs rump. My druid started otu standing back since he didn't see a point to the fight, but joined in when I realized there wasn't going to be any point in roleplaying this game. The DM (who's a good friends and deserves the chance to improve) turned the combat into a giant joke. So I went in and pwnd everything that moved. Well not really, I killed 2 goblins. I told the knight to follow me and stuck the Ranger onto my Fox's (wolf) back. We tracked the goblins to their cave and egan the dungeon. The Sorcerer let me know he was gonna catch up. I reminded the DM that my wolf had scent so that he would tell me when my wolf smelt the ogre who was guarding the entrance to the cave. Well within range he never said the wolf smelled him so I leaned over and made sure he knew there was an encounter there. That got me accused of metagaming, which I feel wasn't fairly. I kind of assumed leadership at this point. So we entered with me using a spell to scout, and the ranger right behind me. I asked what I saw in the room, and the DM gave no description. I accepted the lack of description since he was new, but again I had to remind him about the enemies there, which weren't hiding, just standing around guarding. We fought our way in and met up with the two guys stuck on foot (1 was a bad roleplayer, the other was pretty good). We wrecked the boss and finished the quest. The next quest was a complete cluster ****. It was another one I had already run. It was meant to be creepy and role player heavy, but contained far too many, "AM I'S FINDING LOOT?!" It begins with the party entering a forest. The DM told me my Fox was too afraid to enter. I 'forcefully' rolled a Ride check to have him go in getting 32. He says I need a Handle Animal instead, 27. So he grudgingly lets me take the wolf in. I wouldn't mind leaving the would behind as much if he were just a purchased mount, but the wolf is half my roleplay background and my characters combat strategy is based around riding it, so it makes all the difference to me. We ended up at an abandoned cabin as the quest goes. At some point me and the knight go out into the snowstorm. We get magically seperated with no rolls allowed. Then I am attacked by a Wendigo who also magically knocks me off my Fox, and attacks me. A players said he fudged the roll for the attack too, but I didn't see. Anyway he at least allowed me a Fort save to prevent catching the disease. Unfortunately I rolled a 1. So I return to the cabin thinking it was a lycanthrope, and unsure if I'm infected. I had the party tie me up so I couldn't attack them. One of the crappy roleplayers says he knocks me out for no apparent reason. The DM tried to kill my character off-camera, but I was really mad about that and he took it back. So they kill the creature but I'm still not sure if I'm infected. So we wait with me tied up and eventually I can feel myself start to change. I gave the party instructions to ressurect me with my gold, and killed myself in a very cool way. So the DM was mad at me that I didn't let myself turn into a Wendigo for an idea he had for the next adventure. Sorry for the long story. But how do you guys feel I played during this? No one said I did anything wrong other than the claims fo metagaming during the session, but I'm not sure.
weasel0 02-05-08, 05:34 PM	Choo choooooo! nah, I think you were in the right to do as your character reasonably wanted. Maybe he's just got an urge to run high power hack n' slashers.
toucanbuzz 02-05-08, 05:42 PM	You metagamed, sure, but it wasn't horrible. Just remember to put yourself in the shoes of the others and see how they view the metagaming (does it feel fair to them?) The DM was a bit off if he fudged the roll and especially if he tried to "make" you into a wendigo. He's got to let the "dice land where they will" as the saying goes, or just "go with the flow." If he gets that right, you should be on track. Now storytime. Don't EVER be like a prior player of mine who was prone to reading adventures beforehand if he could. Having caught him doing it, one of my players (mage) volunteered to "read" a cursed book that would summon a demon in a dungeon room (I tipped him off about the book so we could confront this player). The player immediately yelled "don't read that book!" The mage asked "why? How would you (a barbarian) know anything about what's in this book?" Of course, at the time of the reading, his barbarian was searching the wall where a secret door should have been for no apparent or logical reason (I moved it). After a vicious battle, we confronted him about using what he knew and, after some base denials, he fessed up and apologized. You're NOWHERE near that, but it's an example of how players feel when other players have run an adventure before. They just don't trust anything you do! Maybe take a "backstage" role in adventures you've been in before rather than a leader role.
ryguysolis 02-05-08, 05:44 PM	Are you a jerk, I'm not sure. However, you were metagaming in this session and I would say that your DM exercised a fair amount of restraint in dealing with for a new DM. You should not have used your knowledge of the module to your character's advantage nor should you have pointed out to your DM when he wasn't running the module as written. If I had been running the game and you had pointed out to me that the guards in the room weren't hiding or that your wolf should have smelled the Ogre I would have told you that while that may be how the adventure is written, that is not how I'm running it right now at this table. Then I probably would have had the Ogre smash your wolf and had all the guards target you for their first attack for trying to DM and PC at the same time. Now, had all of this happened after your character became forcibly infected by a Wendigo and railroaded into death, your metagaming could be excused as the only means of keeping your character alive. However, due to the timing I'm more inclined to excuse your DM for engineering your death based on your penchant for metagaming.
Master_of_Rouges 02-05-08, 05:48 PM	Well i think your not being a jerk I think the DM is being a Dm who doesnt like his plans being ruined. But he is relatively new to cut this problem in half. Dont do anything that seriously just pull him aside and remind him that he needs to have alternative routes and other ideas to keep the campaign going.
Orenmir 02-05-08, 05:49 PM	I wouldn't say you are being a jerk. There are some things that you did that I personally would have handled differently. In general, it's hard to give up "the chair." But, when you do, I think the new DM should learn from his own mistakes. Unless asked for, I would not give him any pointers or reminders. Personally, I think it's a bad idea to play an adventure you already know. It can be done, but it gives you opportunity to metagame. Did you metagame here? Technically, I'd say yes (in very broad terms); but, you're intention was only to keep the DM in check -- so, it really isn't a huge deal (unless it becomes a habit). The gist I get is that the DM might have been getting perturbed -- at you for showing him that he kept forgetting things, and at himself for forgetting things. Don't worry about the dice fudging. It was only one roll, and you can't really prove it. If he makes a habit out of it, then I'd bring it to his attention. Killing yourself is one of those derailers that DMs just need to suck up. Being a new DM, it's probably pretty hard for him to do. So, you might want to cut him some slack. What do you mean by "off-camera?" [EDIT: Wow, I started typing my response and got 4 ninjas!]
Malcaor 02-05-08, 05:50 PM	You seem to have misunderstood the part about him not describing the guards. They weren't hiding, he simply didn't tell me they were there, I'm not sure why. I don't really feel I was metagaming to my characters advantage in this, I played cautisouly even when I knew something wouldn't be there, but I wanted to make sure I was aware of everything that my character should be. I do understand your point about assuming the scenario was being run as written. About off-camera: When the combat with the Wendigo started he wasn't sure how the regeneration worked so I explained it to him while the other players were attacking (I was unconscious at this point). After he understood well enough I sat back and watched the combat. When the combat was over he announced I was missing. I was kinda miffed since I had announced I was going to kill myself before changing, and my Fox was guarding me. He took it back grudgingly, since I wasn't the only one angered by it.
ryguysolis 02-05-08, 07:35 PM	About the guards, he did not claim they were hiding he just had them in the room, you surveyed the room, and the guards were not included in the description? That's a pretty big oversight, but I still think it's inappropriate to assume the guards would be placed there as per the module. Do you think his actions during the Wendigo attack were motivated by frustration at your earlier actions or simply an attempt to impose plot on you?
Rood_Inverse 02-05-08, 08:40 PM	You were not a jerk. However, you were very wrong in what you were doing. You told him how to run HIS game. You are no longer the DM, you don't have the luxury of deciding things. Doesn't matter if you wrote the module with your own blood and can recite it down to the punctuation. His game, shut your DM-hole and play. Not only did you try to tell him how to run his game, you did it while he was running his game. If you're not in The Chair, you need to sit down and be quiet about anything to do with rules and the actual mechanics of the scenario unless you're asked. Your realm of influence if your character and your character only. The ONLY acceptable time to question a ruling is if you could die from a mistake on someone's part. Other than that, learn to roll with it and just deal with it after the game. If you have a problem with his DMing, especially as a new DM, write it down. Talk to him after the game, and ASK HIM FIRST if he wants your opinions and pointers. You didn't just metagame, you were out and out twinking. "My wolf will know about the hidden guards!" I don't think you were playing cautious, even when you knew nothing would be there... I think that's a pretty transparent (and inexcusable) justification for cheating. You're suffering from the need to still be the DM, as well as the need to "win." (For example, how quickly you balked that your wolf would "never" be too scared to enter the forest... You're entitled to make an appropriate roll, and you grudgingly got your way after getting to roll enough dice after having a temper tantrum. Sometime you will be caught without your optimization. Do the wizards in your game complain about being ineffective after they're out of spells?) . . . Forgive me if I'm being too harsh, but there's a lesson here you need to learn. And that is to let your DM learn to run the game on his own. He'll never learn if you don't let him make his own mistakes, instead of running the game for him. And he'll never DM again if you keep pulling stunts like this. You abused your position of trust and power. You took control of his game, blatantly metagamed, and borderline humiliated him by telling him he wasn't running HIS game right. The DM needs to learn to accept the dice as they fall (ie, allowing your wolf after the ride check, instead of requiring a second roll that you were less likely to succeed). Next time he wants to DM something you've already run... Don't play. Stay behind the screen with him and be his advisor ONLY WHEN HE ASKS FOR HELP. Otherwise, take notes and be quiet. Address any notes away from the group after the session. Your intention may have been right... But you did absolutely everything wrong. I don't see anything you did as being helpful in the least to the new DM - everything I saw you report was strictly for your character's (or maybe the party's, but that doesn't make it any better) benefit. I'll be surprised if he wants to DM again.
Malcaor 02-05-08, 10:01 PM	Yes, I understand. Next time I play off the chair, I'll make sure I accept my position. Thank you for the feedback.
jage 02-05-08, 11:16 PM	Hindsight being 20/20, things could have been handled different. The cave encounter - obviously the DM doesn't know how to run a game, even at the most basic level. You're looking for a rich roleplaying game from someone who has never DM'd before and clearly doesn't "get it", you're not going to fix it by telling him what to do. Apart from asking him if there is a door, maybe doing a search check or taking 20 to see if it's not really just a descriptionless cave there isn't much you could do. Consider talking to him about it before the next session- explain why you were frustrated (you knew there was something there and you reacted badly to not having a description) and apologize for metagaming. The wolf in the woods thing, sure it's unfair for a DM to force you away from your animal, but to keep them together and test was your agenda. That would have rubbed me wrong as a DM. In the same spirit of searching the cave I would suggest letting him separate you from your wolf. After all if it happens in a "real" game will the character build not stand if the wolf is killed/trapped whatever? So he forces a seperation. What is your character going to do? Go into the woods anyway? I doubt it. So hopefully he learns that forcing something on you doesn't really change anything- instead of learning that players will argue over every little skill check. Basically you've got to let him make mistakes, even if they kill you or turn you into a brawler instead of a role player. He's never going to get better as a DM if you fight every decision... hell you might be responsible for creating an uber-*ss DM. On the other hand killing yourself instead of accepting the Wendigo fate was perfect. In game solution to a railroading problem, not fighting him but letting him know that players will make their own decisions. Hopefully he'll learn to be more flexible from it and come up with alternative adventures instead of coming up with more and more elaborate ways to separate your character from the wolf or force you into being a Wendigo or whatever. When you apologise you can use it as an opportunity to discuss railroading, descriptions, and having alternatives prepared. Think of the long term- after all remember you want him to grow into an awesome DM, that way you can really get a chance to play.
Daeva 02-05-08, 11:35 PM	this kinda reminds me, to a much lesser extent about our group, the absolute worse player we have is one of the guys who full time GMs the other game we play, with a HELL of a lot of house rules. i just dont think he knows the actual rules so pulls something out and sticks with it, he knows we as players dont care for most of his stuff, but live with it anyway. point is he drags the game on having to be reminded of how the rules are as written, and thats how were playing, and sometimes even gets a little pissy because (OMFG!!!!) we use the FAQ and Errata!!!!! omg nooooooooo dont balance the game out WTH!!! anyway LOL, this guy actually says he doesnt like the faq and errata because the company should of gotten it right the first time, and doesnt like WotC bcause they wernt capable of it, and that the faq is no less than half bad or incorrect ruleings, and dspises the fact we do use them. hes constantly misunderstanding abilities and building characters around them, then rmaking a character when he finds out hes wrong.. even sadder he taught his wife how to GM just as relatively crappy as him and now she wants to start GMing the other game, and we sraight told them that we will only use their rules concoction in one game at a time... anyway.... and if i have to hear him say "well if i was GMing i would......" ill like... i dunno tell him to shut up...
BlueOmega 02-06-08, 01:55 AM	Early parts I can admit you were being a jerk, the Wendigo part is acceptable, I have seen a Dwarven Cleric Banish the 2nd to last boss because it was extra-planar, which is perfectly acceptable as the objective is to to Prevent/Kill/Solve the current problem, battle or puzzle related or both. Never be the person who back-seats when someone is say playing a video game and they ask after being ticked "Would you like to play??" and you go "Nope, you keep playing." Now if you want to talk to me about jerks, try this kid (age 13-15) plays the same GreyHawk Adventure just a different GM, so this kid knows every nook and cranny basically, he confessed and I (the one who ran this being the different GM) gave him less then 50EXP because at least he saved the parties hide along with Admitted & Apologized since no other party member had anything related to fire, yes not even the 3 sorcerers had an answer. Just let the GM do His/Her job and as others have said just sit back and get feed whatever information gets dished up, if you can't handle that I would suggest you told the GM to run something different so that you wouldn't know every Nook & Cranny as well.
Jexil 02-06-08, 05:37 PM	It's probably never a good idea to be a player in an adventure you yourself wrote. Not only will be it difficult to avoid metagaming, the DM will never run the adventure quite the way you think he should. You're bound to be frustrated. On a side note, I'm confused. Is your mount a fox or a wolf? A wolf named Fox? A fox the size of a wolf?
Mysteria 02-07-08, 03:34 AM	My guess: A fox using the stats for a wolf as there are no fox stats around.
Malcaor 02-07-08, 08:22 AM	Mysteria wins!
rimble 02-07-08, 11:30 AM	Excellent post Rood_Inverse, mirrors my thoughts exactly, and written much more eloquently than I could have.
nowiwantmydmg 02-07-08, 12:01 PM	It sounds like the only real problem is he's new to DMing and doesn't quite know how to run things yet(Hell I've been doing it 10+ yrs and I don't totally have a handle on it most of the time). So in a polite respectful way perhaps talk to him before the next session, something along the lines of: " How are you enjoying DMing, so far?? ; I find it to be hard work but lots of fun. If there's anything I can help with or you need advice, you just have to ask". Friendly, helpful and gets the idea accross that there's more to it than rolling dice and holding players to DM plots.
Jexil 02-07-08, 02:11 PM	My guess: A fox using the stats for a wolf as there are no fox stats around. That would be one heck of a big fox. I would've used the stats for a small-sized dog.
Ithshunter 02-07-08, 06:24 PM	Both you and the dm are in the wrong here. the new dungeon master made a few mistakes in the second adventure, namely the seperation and off screen kill. however, you should not have even bothered mentioning the fact that the creatures were not hiding, or there was no trap there, or that creature is in that room, not this one...etc. Just because you have decided to run a pre made adventure does not mean you must adhere to it 100%. If you decide you want to make a room larger, or add a monster or two, that's fine. however, he should not have used DM fiat to knock you off your wolf/fox, or to "kill" you,he also was in the wrong to ignore the wolf/fox's scent. Also,his complaint about you killing yourself was a bit out there, but he was new to DMing.Now, I say you should try to explain that when Dming, you shouldn't complain when something goes against your plans, and you shouldn't use your power as DM very often. But you also need to realise that even though somethign doesn't go as written, it doesn't mean you have to complain, although reminders are helpful, too many sometimes feel like nagging. But, then again, perhaps the DM made more mistakes than what you posted.
Malcaor 02-07-08, 06:44 PM	That would be one heck of a big fox. I would've used the stats for a small-sized dog. I just said it was a particularly large fox, and then was bigger becuase of the Druid enhancement.
trapspringer 02-07-08, 11:39 PM	RE: "Am I a Jerk" If you look around the table and don't see the [donkey], you're it.
jage 02-07-08, 11:44 PM	And if you look around the table and everyone is being a total arse, then the donkey is probably you.
Fitz10019 02-08-08, 04:24 PM	I just said it was a particularly large fox, and then was bigger becuase of the Druid enhancement. Agreed, small dog = coyote = fox. Also, what Druid AnComp enhancements? The additional HD do not change the size... or did you make up a Dire Fox, with Wolf stats?
ToastedAmphibian 02-08-08, 09:39 PM	He watches/reads too much japanese fantasy, just let it go......
Malcaor 02-08-08, 11:42 PM	What about the advancement list, that includes the size based on HD, the druid bonus HD don't count for that?
Empirate 02-09-08, 04:37 AM	Bonus HD to animal companions don't advance the creature as per standard monster advancement. At least, they don't provide size increases. Which is only practical: just imagine a 17th level Druid's problems of fitting his AC into any kind of dungeon! However, if an appropriate back story is given, why not call the critter a "Dire Fox" and use the stats for a Wolf? I can see nothing wrong with that. Still, a Wolf is medium-size and can't be ridden by a medium-size creature.
Lord_Varos 02-09-08, 07:27 PM	Yes, you are a jerk. But we all are, at one point or another, especially we DMs who give up the throne to get a shot at gaming. We try to run our character the way that most DMs run games: with strict attention to the rules, a perception to all things that are happen even if they don't relate to your character, and thinking we have the ability to make a final decision. New DMs will make mistakes, they will do things counter to popular ideas of how a game should be run, they will railroad fiercely. Let new DMs be "bad" DMs. We all were. The only way be get better is by teaching ourselves, not by being told how things "should" go. Technically, what you consciously did wasn't metagaming, since you didn't change the way your character acted based on the information you had, but it's impossible to know the exact scenario your character is going into and not, even subconsciously, change the way you play. You will either be intentionally suspicious or unsuspicious of the appropriate NPCs, be wary just in the right room or act oblivious at the right trapped door. It's just not good form for you to allow him to run an adventure you know already, especially since you held the position. You should know better.
Pyro_Azer 02-09-08, 10:55 PM	Yes you are a jerk; so is everyone else. It is impossible to be the epitome of friendlyness all of the time.
blade265 02-09-08, 11:21 PM	Were any of the other players playing optimized characters as well or were you the only 1? Playing an optimized character with a first time DM is unfair and the fox/wolf is a bit rude as well. IMO both of you are jerks with you being the bigger one. :D What class levels?
Malcaor 02-10-08, 08:37 AM	It's just not good form for you to allow him to run an adventure you know already, especially since you held the position. You should know better. He actually wanted to run them, and I was opposed. He really liked the two adventures so I let him go with it. I was the only one who knew enough to optimize, so I was helping the other players optimize as well. Basically they picked concept, class, role and I helped them make the best of it.