Am I a powergamer!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I a powergamer!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lenarior
12-02-05, 04:59 AM I recently got a chance to create a character using the Magic of Incarnum supplement. I chose to play a human totemist. The feats I chose where Cerulean Will and Incarnum-toughened Body (is it called that?). I wear a studded leather armor, use a large wooden shield, and fight with a morningstar.

My choice of soulmelds worm belt (with one essentia granting +3 natural armor), and claws of *something* (can't remember the name, with one essentia granting +6 to move silently and hide).

This ads up to a level one character with 13 hit points, armor class 19 (+3 armor, +2 shield, +1 dex, +3 natural) avarage melee prowess and +4 in both hide and move silently. It seems a bit powerfull to me. I've made fighters before who could fight only a little better than this character but had lower AC and hp and couldn't sneak past a deaf and blind guard.

Am I cheating? Am I power-gaming without even realising it? Have I missing something in the rules? Any thoughts?
Tyler Do'Urden
12-02-05, 08:33 AM Maybe you are a powergamer. Incarnum's some potent stuff.

So? Since when are high-powered characters and campaigns a bad thing?

Is your DM alright with it? Because at the end of the day, nobody else's opinion really matters, regardless of how loud they may be.
Lenarior
12-02-05, 08:45 AM My DM doesn't mind. He never does acctually as he is a little meek.

Also, there are only two characters (me included) in this campaign so we need a little extra power. My question was mostly to check if I had broken the existing rules or if I had been bending them too far. I always like playing a powerful character (as most of my characters become rather weak), but I don't want to brake any rules to reach that goal, and since Incarnum is new I thought that I might have missed something.
BeyondFated
12-02-05, 08:50 AM Nope, your lookin' A-OK on my end, buddy. Good gamin', my man. :thumbsup:
Timlagor
12-02-05, 08:54 AM It doesn't sound that powerful to me.

You can't really get that powerful at level 1 though. The question arises with what you plan for higher levels.

The fact that you didn't even mention your plans for higher levels means you aren't a powergamer.
WayneTheGame
12-02-05, 09:29 AM If you use Magic of Incarnum, you might be a powergamer.... just kidding. You look fine to me.

As an aside, I don't think anyone has a real problem with powergamers. It's the munchkins that cause trouble. And yes, there's a difference. A powergamer will create a powerful build, but it won't be all crunch. You can be a good powergamer AND a good roleplayer. A munchkin, however, is the type that lurks on the CO forums (no offense to anyone who does this) and has characters that take dips in various classes/prestige classes (usually several of each; if you ask me you should be limited to ONE prestige class. They're called prestige classes for a reason. But I digress and rant..) JUST for some "l33t p0w3rz". As long as you stay away from doing that sort of nonsense, you're good to go. There's nothing wrong with having a powerful character or one that uses your powers to the fullest; it becomes a problem when ALL you care about is being able to deal 9999 damage per attack or having an AC of 500.

Eh.. sorry for the rant :) Your character looks fine.. happy gaming to you!
Millennium
12-02-05, 10:00 AM It definitely smells like powergaming, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Powergaming is only a problem when people do it to the exclusion of all else, and it doesn't sound as though that's the case here. I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you.
sleepydeath
12-02-05, 10:08 AM no that is not powerful. I have made a lvl 2 character about 1 month ago (Dwarf Bear Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1). This character has 35 HP and dmg reduction 2/- at lvl 2. I think this is powerful :P. Compare your character to mine and see the difference.
Talonz
12-02-05, 10:50 AM My decision not to buy Incarnum is confirmed, thanks.

But are you a powergamer? Probably a little. But a little is ok if you and your dm are ok with it. As someone pointed out, a little powergaming is a good thing so long as its not at the exclusion of roleplaying etc.
High Octane
12-02-05, 03:20 PM Humans make some of the most powerful first level characters of the base races since they get 2 feats at first level. This may not seem like much, but remember, some of the most powerful feats have the prerequisite "Must be taken first level" So only humans can take 2.
DragonDeadite
12-02-05, 03:32 PM You're a terrible person and a warped power gamer to build such a character!!!!*

*All comments are made on the bassis that I have never seen the Magic of Incarnum book, and have no idea what you are talking about. Comments are meant to be funny and the poster appologises for any hurt feelings that may have been caused by these comments, please rest assured that his fiance is going to beat him over the head for a week as soon as she sees this post. Thank you and good gaming.

:dragon:
Gailbraithe
12-02-05, 03:52 PM I have to agree with WayneTheGame, powergaming is not inherently bad. Powergaming with no thought to character development or other role-playing considerations tends to be munckining. But if you're character concept is something along the lines of "I'm the best at what I do, and what I do isn't pretty." then powergaming can actually be essential to good role-playing.

I've not picked up Magic of Incarnum, but any character with maxed out hit points, AC, and extraneous sneaky skills tends to scream "powergaming" to me. That's how I build pretty much all of my characters, and I know I'm a powergamer. So really it comes down to concept. If this guy is supposed to be a fun-loving laid-back casual adventurer typoe, then I'd said you're being a munchkin. If it's supposed to be a scary badass killer lurking in the shadows (yay!!), then I'd say good build.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-02-05, 05:41 PM As an aside, I don't think anyone has a real problem with powergamers. It's the munchkins that cause trouble.
To add to this (because people seem to be forgetting), being a munchkin literally means "playing the game like a little kid." That's where the term came from. Little kids are short, munchkins are short, little kids are selfish and immature and seek to "win teh D&D", hence we use "munchkin" to describe that behavior.

You're not playing the game like a little kid, you're just running Incarnum. The world will forgive you.
Rabid Dire Wolverine
12-02-05, 07:49 PM I confess that I'm a powergamer, but I don't consider it a bad thing, since I like roleplaying better than slicing goblins anyway.
Hochiu
12-03-05, 06:00 AM If you use Magic of Incarnum, you might be a powergamer.... just kidding. You look fine to me.

As an aside, I don't think anyone has a real problem with powergamers. It's the munchkins that cause trouble. And yes, there's a difference. A powergamer will create a powerful build, but it won't be all crunch. You can be a good powergamer AND a good roleplayer. A munchkin, however, is the type that lurks on the CO forums (no offense to anyone who does this) and has characters that take dips in various classes/prestige classes (usually several of each; if you ask me you should be limited to ONE prestige class. They're called prestige classes for a reason. But I digress and rant..) JUST for some "l33t p0w3rz". As long as you stay away from doing that sort of nonsense, you're good to go. There's nothing wrong with having a powerful character or one that uses your powers to the fullest; it becomes a problem when ALL you care about is being able to deal 9999 damage per attack or having an AC of 500.

Eh.. sorry for the rant :) Your character looks fine.. happy gaming to you!

I agree. Powergamers are not necessarily a bad thing. Its actually good to have at least ONE person in the group who knows what they're doing class/race wise and can build accordingly, providing a stable basis for the group to fall back on. This happens mostly in a melee situation, which has caused a great many people to view powergamers as "action-junkies" and "roll-players", at least in my personal experience.

Powergamers and their close kin, the Min/Maxer aren't the problem -- at least if their player is intelligent. The problem is, as you said, when you get to the munchkins. The guys who want to be the half dwarven/half gold-dragon werebear[afflicted] monk with the vow of poverty feat (I actually built this just to see if I could do it) without complete disregard of a background or whatever (what I had) and complains when they find out that at level 5, they're like, ECL 16.

We had a self-proclaimed "Powergaming Min/Maxer" in our group in my previous college, a Damphir (Daywalker) Psionic Warrior who knew what he was doing with the class and became THE tank of the group. What's ironic about that group, out of 8 players over two years, the Cleric based chracter (with Nature and Sun domains) became the second greatest meleer in the group.

Funny things about Min/maxers and Powergamers is that they're often filled with negative connotations. Its sad, but its true.
tharivol266
12-03-05, 06:52 PM the funny thing about ppl who try to min max but dont know how to do it well always end up an ECL of 20 with just one HD from using alot of templates. and im not sure but i think that lycanthropy only effects humaniods and monsterous humanoids so if u were a 1/2 dragon the template switches ur type to dragon making it impossible for u to be a lycanthrop too
Gworraent
12-03-05, 07:03 PM now i want magic of incarnum even more! not cos i'm a power gamer but cos every time someone makes a reference to something specific in MoI i drool in envy
Vaelan
12-03-05, 08:31 PM Am I power-gaming without even realising it?
Not only are you not doing such a thing, but, according to this board's official definition of "power-gaming" (from the Dictionary of Terminology in the D&D Forum FAQs forum), it is literally impossible to do so without realizing it.

Power Gamer (noun), 1: A player whose primary focus in a RPG is the increase of his character’s power, usually defined in combat terms.
If your primary focus is the increase in your character's power, you are a Power Gamer.
Lord Howland Reed
12-03-05, 09:45 PM I think that part of where powergaming gets a bad wrap is people almost think of it like as using OOC information. But if Im an adventurer, and I face life or death situations frequently, Im goin to do whatever I can to make my survivablity better.
"I know I could have had that wand of of fireballs, but this Cloak Of Whatever Crap just suits my character so much better!"
"OK, Ill get my shovel+2 and get to digging your grave straightaway!"

My personality suits a Steelers hoodie, but if you were sending me to Fallujah, Ill take the kevlar vest, thank you.
Callista
12-04-05, 12:14 AM It looks fine to me. Being a powergamer's not a bad thing if you're a role-player too (or if you're playing D&D as more of a "war game"), because of course your character can't ever develop a real personality if he doesn't stay alive.

Now, if you want us to tell you whether you are more a powergamer or more a role-player, post your character's background story or tell us about his personality. Then we'll be able to tell which one you're more into. With luck, it'll be the same as the rest of the people in your group. :)

(I ended up in a half-RP, half-powergaming group... It was not fun when half of us wanted to talk to the orcs and the other half had weird looks on their faces because they didn't know orcs were there for anything but killing.)

Note: It is possible to be both a powergamer and a role-player.
ChaoticGod
12-04-05, 03:28 AM My choice of soulmelds worm belt (with one essentia granting +3 natural armor), and claws of *something* (can't remember the name, with one essentia granting +6 to move silently and hide).

This ads up to a level one character with 13 hit points, armor class 19 (+3 armor, +2 shield, +1 dex, +3 natural) avarage melee prowess and +4 in both hide and move silently. It seems a bit powerfull to me. I've made fighters before who could fight only a little better than this character but had lower AC and hp and couldn't sneak past a deaf and blind guard.

Ask yourself if you could make this same first level character without Magic of Incarnum. I don't this this a case of powergaming but rather a case of supplement book power creep up.
ElNoNombreHombre
12-05-05, 12:25 AM Ask yourself if you could make this same first level character without Magic of Incarnum. I don't this this a case of powergaming but rather a case of supplement book power creep up.
Just for comparison, core only, 25 point buy
Human Ranger 1

STR 12 [+1]
DEX 16 [+3]
CON 14 [+2]
INT 13 [+1]
WIS 8 [-1]
CHA 8 [-1]

Hum - Toughness
1st - Stealthy
Rgr1- Track

Large Wooden Sheild
Chain Shirt
Longsword

HP: 13 = 8 (max 1st HD) + 2 (Con) + 3 (Toughness)
Attack: Longsword +2
AC: 19 = 10 + 3 Dex + 2 sheild + 4 armor

Move Silently: +5 = 4 ranks + 3 dex +2 Stealthy - 4 ACP
Hide: +5 = 4 ranks + 3 dex +2 Stealthy - 4 ACP
<24 skill points left>

Now, I don't have that book. So someone else is going to have to say howthat stacks against the origional poster's.

From what I see, however, it seems to be better, but not by that much.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lenarior 12-02-05, 04:59 AM	I recently got a chance to create a character using the Magic of Incarnum supplement. I chose to play a human totemist. The feats I chose where Cerulean Will and Incarnum-toughened Body (is it called that?). I wear a studded leather armor, use a large wooden shield, and fight with a morningstar. My choice of soulmelds worm belt (with one essentia granting +3 natural armor), and claws of something (can't remember the name, with one essentia granting +6 to move silently and hide). This ads up to a level one character with 13 hit points, armor class 19 (+3 armor, +2 shield, +1 dex, +3 natural) avarage melee prowess and +4 in both hide and move silently. It seems a bit powerfull to me. I've made fighters before who could fight only a little better than this character but had lower AC and hp and couldn't sneak past a deaf and blind guard. Am I cheating? Am I power-gaming without even realising it? Have I missing something in the rules? Any thoughts?
Tyler Do'Urden 12-02-05, 08:33 AM	Maybe you are a powergamer. Incarnum's some potent stuff. So? Since when are high-powered characters and campaigns a bad thing? Is your DM alright with it? Because at the end of the day, nobody else's opinion really matters, regardless of how loud they may be.
Lenarior 12-02-05, 08:45 AM	My DM doesn't mind. He never does acctually as he is a little meek. Also, there are only two characters (me included) in this campaign so we need a little extra power. My question was mostly to check if I had broken the existing rules or if I had been bending them too far. I always like playing a powerful character (as most of my characters become rather weak), but I don't want to brake any rules to reach that goal, and since Incarnum is new I thought that I might have missed something.
BeyondFated 12-02-05, 08:50 AM	Nope, your lookin' A-OK on my end, buddy. Good gamin', my man. :thumbsup:
Timlagor 12-02-05, 08:54 AM	It doesn't sound that powerful to me. You can't really get that powerful at level 1 though. The question arises with what you plan for higher levels. The fact that you didn't even mention your plans for higher levels means you aren't a powergamer.
WayneTheGame 12-02-05, 09:29 AM	If you use Magic of Incarnum, you might be a powergamer.... just kidding. You look fine to me. As an aside, I don't think anyone has a real problem with powergamers. It's the munchkins that cause trouble. And yes, there's a difference. A powergamer will create a powerful build, but it won't be all crunch. You can be a good powergamer AND a good roleplayer. A munchkin, however, is the type that lurks on the CO forums (no offense to anyone who does this) and has characters that take dips in various classes/prestige classes (usually several of each; if you ask me you should be limited to ONE prestige class. They're called prestige classes for a reason. But I digress and rant..) JUST for some "l33t p0w3rz". As long as you stay away from doing that sort of nonsense, you're good to go. There's nothing wrong with having a powerful character or one that uses your powers to the fullest; it becomes a problem when ALL you care about is being able to deal 9999 damage per attack or having an AC of 500. Eh.. sorry for the rant :) Your character looks fine.. happy gaming to you!
Millennium 12-02-05, 10:00 AM	It definitely smells like powergaming, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Powergaming is only a problem when people do it to the exclusion of all else, and it doesn't sound as though that's the case here. I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you.
sleepydeath 12-02-05, 10:08 AM	no that is not powerful. I have made a lvl 2 character about 1 month ago (Dwarf Bear Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1). This character has 35 HP and dmg reduction 2/- at lvl 2. I think this is powerful :P. Compare your character to mine and see the difference.
Talonz 12-02-05, 10:50 AM	My decision not to buy Incarnum is confirmed, thanks. But are you a powergamer? Probably a little. But a little is ok if you and your dm are ok with it. As someone pointed out, a little powergaming is a good thing so long as its not at the exclusion of roleplaying etc.
High Octane 12-02-05, 03:20 PM	Humans make some of the most powerful first level characters of the base races since they get 2 feats at first level. This may not seem like much, but remember, some of the most powerful feats have the prerequisite "Must be taken first level" So only humans can take 2.
DragonDeadite 12-02-05, 03:32 PM	You're a terrible person and a warped power gamer to build such a character!!!!* *All comments are made on the bassis that I have never seen the Magic of Incarnum book, and have no idea what you are talking about. Comments are meant to be funny and the poster appologises for any hurt feelings that may have been caused by these comments, please rest assured that his fiance is going to beat him over the head for a week as soon as she sees this post. Thank you and good gaming. :dragon:
Gailbraithe 12-02-05, 03:52 PM	I have to agree with WayneTheGame, powergaming is not inherently bad. Powergaming with no thought to character development or other role-playing considerations tends to be munckining. But if you're character concept is something along the lines of "I'm the best at what I do, and what I do isn't pretty." then powergaming can actually be essential to good role-playing. I've not picked up Magic of Incarnum, but any character with maxed out hit points, AC, and extraneous sneaky skills tends to scream "powergaming" to me. That's how I build pretty much all of my characters, and I know I'm a powergamer. So really it comes down to concept. If this guy is supposed to be a fun-loving laid-back casual adventurer typoe, then I'd said you're being a munchkin. If it's supposed to be a scary badass killer lurking in the shadows (yay!!), then I'd say good build.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-02-05, 05:41 PM	As an aside, I don't think anyone has a real problem with powergamers. It's the munchkins that cause trouble. To add to this (because people seem to be forgetting), being a munchkin literally means "playing the game like a little kid." That's where the term came from. Little kids are short, munchkins are short, little kids are selfish and immature and seek to "win teh D&D", hence we use "munchkin" to describe that behavior. You're not playing the game like a little kid, you're just running Incarnum. The world will forgive you.
Rabid Dire Wolverine 12-02-05, 07:49 PM	I confess that I'm a powergamer, but I don't consider it a bad thing, since I like roleplaying better than slicing goblins anyway.
Hochiu 12-03-05, 06:00 AM	If you use Magic of Incarnum, you might be a powergamer.... just kidding. You look fine to me. As an aside, I don't think anyone has a real problem with powergamers. It's the munchkins that cause trouble. And yes, there's a difference. A powergamer will create a powerful build, but it won't be all crunch. You can be a good powergamer AND a good roleplayer. A munchkin, however, is the type that lurks on the CO forums (no offense to anyone who does this) and has characters that take dips in various classes/prestige classes (usually several of each; if you ask me you should be limited to ONE prestige class. They're called prestige classes for a reason. But I digress and rant..) JUST for some "l33t p0w3rz". As long as you stay away from doing that sort of nonsense, you're good to go. There's nothing wrong with having a powerful character or one that uses your powers to the fullest; it becomes a problem when ALL you care about is being able to deal 9999 damage per attack or having an AC of 500. Eh.. sorry for the rant :) Your character looks fine.. happy gaming to you! I agree. Powergamers are not necessarily a bad thing. Its actually good to have at least ONE person in the group who knows what they're doing class/race wise and can build accordingly, providing a stable basis for the group to fall back on. This happens mostly in a melee situation, which has caused a great many people to view powergamers as "action-junkies" and "roll-players", at least in my personal experience. Powergamers and their close kin, the Min/Maxer aren't the problem -- at least if their player is intelligent. The problem is, as you said, when you get to the munchkins. The guys who want to be the half dwarven/half gold-dragon werebear[afflicted] monk with the vow of poverty feat (I actually built this just to see if I could do it) without complete disregard of a background or whatever (what I had) and complains when they find out that at level 5, they're like, ECL 16. We had a self-proclaimed "Powergaming Min/Maxer" in our group in my previous college, a Damphir (Daywalker) Psionic Warrior who knew what he was doing with the class and became THE tank of the group. What's ironic about that group, out of 8 players over two years, the Cleric based chracter (with Nature and Sun domains) became the second greatest meleer in the group. Funny things about Min/maxers and Powergamers is that they're often filled with negative connotations. Its sad, but its true.
tharivol266 12-03-05, 06:52 PM	the funny thing about ppl who try to min max but dont know how to do it well always end up an ECL of 20 with just one HD from using alot of templates. and im not sure but i think that lycanthropy only effects humaniods and monsterous humanoids so if u were a 1/2 dragon the template switches ur type to dragon making it impossible for u to be a lycanthrop too
Gworraent 12-03-05, 07:03 PM	now i want magic of incarnum even more! not cos i'm a power gamer but cos every time someone makes a reference to something specific in MoI i drool in envy
Vaelan 12-03-05, 08:31 PM	Am I power-gaming without even realising it? Not only are you not doing such a thing, but, according to this board's official definition of "power-gaming" (from the Dictionary of Terminology in the D&D Forum FAQs forum), it is literally impossible to do so without realizing it. Power Gamer (noun), 1: A player whose primary focus in a RPG is the increase of his character’s power, usually defined in combat terms. If your primary focus is the increase in your character's power, you are a Power Gamer.
Lord Howland Reed 12-03-05, 09:45 PM	I think that part of where powergaming gets a bad wrap is people almost think of it like as using OOC information. But if Im an adventurer, and I face life or death situations frequently, Im goin to do whatever I can to make my survivablity better. "I know I could have had that wand of of fireballs, but this Cloak Of Whatever Crap just suits my character so much better!" "OK, Ill get my shovel+2 and get to digging your grave straightaway!" My personality suits a Steelers hoodie, but if you were sending me to Fallujah, Ill take the kevlar vest, thank you.
Callista 12-04-05, 12:14 AM	It looks fine to me. Being a powergamer's not a bad thing if you're a role-player too (or if you're playing D&D as more of a "war game"), because of course your character can't ever develop a real personality if he doesn't stay alive. Now, if you want us to tell you whether you are more a powergamer or more a role-player, post your character's background story or tell us about his personality. Then we'll be able to tell which one you're more into. With luck, it'll be the same as the rest of the people in your group. :) (I ended up in a half-RP, half-powergaming group... It was not fun when half of us wanted to talk to the orcs and the other half had weird looks on their faces because they didn't know orcs were there for anything but killing.) Note: It is possible to be both a powergamer and a role-player.
ChaoticGod 12-04-05, 03:28 AM	My choice of soulmelds worm belt (with one essentia granting +3 natural armor), and claws of something (can't remember the name, with one essentia granting +6 to move silently and hide). This ads up to a level one character with 13 hit points, armor class 19 (+3 armor, +2 shield, +1 dex, +3 natural) avarage melee prowess and +4 in both hide and move silently. It seems a bit powerfull to me. I've made fighters before who could fight only a little better than this character but had lower AC and hp and couldn't sneak past a deaf and blind guard. Ask yourself if you could make this same first level character without Magic of Incarnum. I don't this this a case of powergaming but rather a case of supplement book power creep up.
ElNoNombreHombre 12-05-05, 12:25 AM	Ask yourself if you could make this same first level character without Magic of Incarnum. I don't this this a case of powergaming but rather a case of supplement book power creep up. Just for comparison, core only, 25 point buy Human Ranger 1 STR 12 [+1] DEX 16 [+3] CON 14 [+2] INT 13 [+1] WIS 8 [-1] CHA 8 [-1] Hum - Toughness 1st - Stealthy Rgr1- Track Large Wooden Sheild Chain Shirt Longsword HP: 13 = 8 (max 1st HD) + 2 (Con) + 3 (Toughness) Attack: Longsword +2 AC: 19 = 10 + 3 Dex + 2 sheild + 4 armor Move Silently: +5 = 4 ranks + 3 dex +2 Stealthy - 4 ACP Hide: +5 = 4 ranks + 3 dex +2 Stealthy - 4 ACP <24 skill points left> Now, I don't have that book. So someone else is going to have to say howthat stacks against the origional poster's. From what I see, however, it seems to be better, but not by that much.