Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TygerTyger 03-24-07, 11:07 PM	Okay, we're playing in a great D&D campaign, the GM is fantastic, game's great, players are all great etc. I'm playing the sole wizard in a group composed mostly of warrior types (ranger, psychic warrior, crusader, cleric, scout and me) and we get occasional downtimes in between our adventures, which is great. For every three weeks of DT that you don't have anything specific planned, the DM has a random table of minor adventures you go on all by your self. They can be very lucrative. One player, over his two "adventures", earned about 2k gold, a suit of enchanted full plate, an ioun stone and a wondrous figurine... which is almost as much magical loot as the entire party split after our last adventure. Note that there is no RP or playing of these DT adventures, the GM just tells you what happened and then gives you the spoils. However, as an arcane caster, I spend pretty much all downtime researching spells. The DM does not allow buying scrolls, and didn't care for the DMG researching rules, as they didn't factor in skills, access to libraries, etc. So he and I came up with a system in the block for those who want to see. Spells require a number of "points" to learn. Level one: 3 Level two: 6 Level three: 9 Level four: 15 Level five: 30 Level six: 60 Level seven: 120 Level eight: 240 Level nine: 360 Points are earned thusly: 1 / five ranks in Spellcraft 1 / five ranks in Knowledge Arcana 1 / day spent in research 1 / 100GP invested in materials of research 1 / 100XP spent 1 / 1000GP value of library used for research 1 / 1000GP value of alchemical lab used for research Minimum time to research is one day. I am currently level 7, with 10 ranks in both Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana. Thus I have a base of 5 points automatically (2 for ranks in Spellcraft, 2 for ranks in Knowledge and 1 for the base day spent) so level 1 and 2 spells basically take a day or two tops. A level 4 spell on the other hand will take 11 days of research unless I want to spend gold or XP or have access to libraries. As a general rule, I will not have access to libraries, as the DM wants me to build my own collection. In a nutshell, level 1 and 2 spells take almost no time (one day for level one, 2 for level 2), but anything above that takes a week or more (level 9 spells will take months). And then I have to pay to scribe the spells into my book. After this most recent adventure, I came out of the DT with less gold that I went into it, having added 6 level one spells, 3 level two and 2 level threes. I am currently level 7. I have yet to get a magic item, simply because I have always needed the gold for spell research and scribing the spells into my spellbook. One of our warriors (the psychic warrior) snagged a Ring of Protection +2, a masterwork mighty bow, a masterwork longsword, and then got the aforementioned ioun stone, figurine and suit of plate (which he sold to the cleric). I know that wizards are always going to have money sinks as we learn spells, and I can accept this, but it just seems that I am being forced to choose between advancing my spellbook or advancing in any other way. Am I just being petulant, or is this a legit beef? For the record, I haven't talked to the DM about this yet, as I am very new to D&D and am not sure if this sort of thing is normal or not.
Comus 03-24-07, 11:18 PM	The DM doesn't allow buying scrolls? That seems... extremely harsh. My casters almost always have a bunch of scrolls on hand to cover situations where only a single, unusual spell (gust of wind[i]) will do, or when they might need an extra round of output ([i]fireball). Anyway, talk to him and just ask about the treasure gap. Tell him you're concerned about falling behind. Maybe suggest that you can spend the downtime studying with/being tutored by/adventuring with another (NPC) mage (and thus getting the spells, and maybe a minor magic item or two).
KillerVole 03-24-07, 11:23 PM	This is not normal. You are being unfairly weakened. Talk to the DM about this. Ask if, since you already have a research point system, he could reduce the cost of scribing spells. Also, take some time off researching to go on some of those "adventures". That can make you some spare money. Finally, talk with the other PCs about creating a charter, which reads as such: "All treasure earned on 'adventures' will be divided evenly among the party, or used for its overall benefit". If this sounds unfair (they will do most of the "work") remind them whose spells save their butts in the dungeon.
TheDarkLord 03-24-07, 11:50 PM	The DM doesn't allow buying scrolls? That seems... extremely harsh. My casters almost always have a bunch of scrolls on hand to cover situations where only a single, unusual spell (gust of wind[i]) will do, or when they might need an extra round of output ([i]fireball). Heh, I run high magic, high power campaigns. Most spellcasters in my world will not sell a high level scroll whatsoever. So you just can go out and buy a scroll of "Wish" or a scroll of "True Res" in my campaign world. Most high level spellcasters keep their power to themselves for a various of personal safety reasons. I think the Highest scroll in my campaign world you could actually buy would be 6th level, and that's only if you really, really look for it.
TygerTyger 03-24-07, 11:55 PM	Except Darklord, in this campaign, I can't buy an Unseen Servant scroll... we're talking zero scrolls for sale. Nadda. Neit. Not just hard to find, or expensive, simply not available.
Kursk 03-24-07, 11:57 PM	In my game buying "magic" except for minor healing stuff and maybe a few +1 items doesn't exist. You make them or adventure for them. Suck it up. It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Grocers & Hagglers.
TygerTyger 03-25-07, 12:05 AM	In my game buying "magic" except for minor healing stuff and maybe a few +1 items doesn't exist. You make them or adventure for them. Suck it up. It's Dungeons & Dragons, not Grocers & Hagglers. Except that, due to the presence of an allied artificer (recently retired PC that has taken on NPC status) with us, people can esessntially buy any magic item from him that they can pay for. But he can't scribe scrolls of course... And we aren't talking about whether or not magic items are available. I am asking if the system as proposed by the GM is unbalanced. Especially because, as noted above, magic items are available through adventuring, and through crafting.
LCD2YOU 03-25-07, 12:30 AM	By definition, all players are "whiny". The only ones who play that are mpt "whiny" are those rare and awesome players that are realistic DMs in their ow righ. Yours truly, me, is such a player. :P Your typical "dime a dozen player" is generally 2 seconds away from crying at any given time. I'm going to eat something now and go to bed.
TheDarkLord 03-25-07, 12:45 AM	By definition, all players are "whiny". The only ones who play that are mpt "whiny" are those rare and awesome players that are realistic DMs in their ow righ. Yours truly, me, is such a player. :P Your typical "dime a dozen player" is generally 2 seconds away from crying at any given time. I'm going to eat something now and go to bed. Not mine, then again you cannot begin to fathom the depths of gratitude I have for my Stable, Mature, Understanding Players.
TygerTyger 03-25-07, 01:09 AM	I think that all the players in this particular game (I think everyone is over 30, and are also over 30 in the emotional and psychological arena as well) are stable, mature and understanding. Thanks for talking about your game though, its been very illuminating. :D Not to get into a moral debate here, but why do some people feel the need to go into threads where legitimate questions have been asked, and derail said threads with completely irrelevant and often sarcastic posts? It was a simple question, requiring a relatively simple answer. As noted above, the only reason I was asking was because I am very unfamiliar with D&D 3.5 and was not sure if this sort of, as I see it, unbalance, was common to most or all games, or if the DM and I needed to discuss this concern of mine.
TheDarkLord 03-25-07, 01:28 AM	I guess that was kinda my fault. Looking back at it, after I edited my post somehow the part where I commented on your Research Idea got lost. Let me see if I can rephrase it. It's not a bad idea, since the lack of scrolls. I might cut research times though. Something around the line of 1 day per spell spell level, or something. You could also do 1.5 and round. That way at Higher levels you won't spend years researching spells you should be getting through captured spellbooks and scrolls. Another thing, can you borrow spellbooks and copy out of them for a fee?
TygerTyger 03-25-07, 01:32 AM	Thanks for clarifying. Another thing, can you borrow spellbooks and copy out of them for a fee? Nope. And to make it even more frustrating, I am a PrC Mage of the Arcane Order candidate (through RP he's negotiating with the Order) and the DM has flat out said "never going to happen"... thus my concern.
TheDarkLord 03-25-07, 01:41 AM	Thanks for clarifying. Nope. And to make it even more frustrating, I am a PrC Mage of the Arcane Order candidate (through RP he's negotiating with the Order) and the DM has flat out said "never going to happen"... thus my concern. Wow. Let's see if I can choke this out, no offence of course. Perhaps... just perhaps, you should maybe.. just maybe, play a.... Sorcerer (God that left a bad taste in my mouth). If you have access to the XPH then a Psion would work even better. This DM seem's to be nerfing the hell out of Wizards. Any kind of Spontaneous caster, or a caster that doesn't need to research like a Cleric or Druid would work better I believe. But if you have to stick with a Wizard, get those Research times cut dramatically.
1hitparry 03-25-07, 02:00 AM	That research system seems like poop. If I understand it correctly, it dramatically nerfs the wizard, while letting divine casters off scott free. I can't begin to comprehend the reason why your DM would want to implement this system.
TygerTyger 03-25-07, 02:13 AM	Wow. Let's see if I can choke this out, no offence of course. Perhaps... just perhaps, you should maybe.. just maybe, play a.... Sorcerer (God that left a bad taste in my mouth). If you have access to the XPH then a Psion would work even better. This DM seem's to be nerfing the hell out of Wizards. Any kind of Spontaneous caster, or a caster that doesn't need to research like a Cleric or Druid would work better I believe. But if you have to stick with a Wizard, get those Research times cut dramatically. Well, that's the problem... I love this character. Changing characters really isn't an option for me at this point. Granted, if he dies, I have my rogue lined up to roll up! :) I don't think the DM is at all a bad DM, (not that you're implying that at all) as a matter of fact we're really lucky to have the great DMs that we have in our group. I do think that there is a problem with this system, even aside from the downtime issues of wealth that its creating. Thanks to everyone for their views, as its at least partially confirmed that this is an issue that I need to speak to the DM about, and that I am not imaging slight where none exists.
IceFractal 03-25-07, 02:46 AM	I think you may need to start charging for spellcasting. Just point out - "Look, the last time between adventures, you guys gots lots of magic items and treasure, whereas I had to spend all my money on spells, which are what's going to help us get past a lot of obstacles. So either divide the treasure fairly, or start paying me for my spellcasting services. Or alternatively, use your spells to make money. Learn Fabricate and start a construction business. Get Minor Creation and start a bar, serving rare elven wines at bargain prices. Learn Permanent Image and start a business making magical signs for businesses. Make Walls of Iron and sell the Iron. Use Shrink Item + Teleport to put caravans out of business. Or just learn Flesh to Salt and flat-out wreck the economy. For that matter, there's the more lucrative trade in the black market. Use Illusions and Enchantment spells to scam millions of gold pieces. Hire yourself out as a saboteur. Use Minor Creation (gotta love that spell) to create BoVD drugs (which can't be used as evidence against you, as they'll vanish in a few hours). But before you resort to that, there's a first step you could try. First off, if you have to research your spells anyway, you may as well make customized versions that are a bit different from the standards. Then: spell trading. Point out that if a spell of a given level costs you X time and money to research, it would take the same for another mage. So, you offer to trade one of your custom spells for one of theirs, of the same level. A fair trade, and there's no good reason you shouldn't be able to, unless you are literally the world's only Wizard. One last idea, which is probably not ideal, as you want to keep your character, but a Cleric with the Magic and Spell domains can cast a number of Sorcerer/Wizard spells, while still getting all their Cleric spells automatically and without cost. Actually, thought of another idea - if you can get Leadership, get an Artificer cohort. Artificers can create scrolls of any spell. So can Warlocks, but not till fairly high level.
Archangel_Tyrael 03-25-07, 02:48 AM	You could do it the way I would do it: the immature way. Your wizard starts to get paranoid seeing protective magic items all around him and starts to worry about his own safety: "I don't know guys...what if something happens to me? You all have magic breastplates, and magic rings, and magic amulets--WHAT DO I HAVE? All I've got is this lousy Magic Mouth spell that I spent an entire week trying to learn--WHY DID I DO THAT? Not to mention I spent all my gold trying to research it." "What did you say? You 'want Bull's Strength' cast on you? I think I need it a little more than you do Crusader-man. You already have a +2 sword--why do you need this other +2 bonus to damage and attack? You are already much stronger than me." "Cat's Grace? Do you even know how long it took me to learn that one? I had to visit 7 different libraries just for directions to the one library I was supposed to visit in the first place. So no, you can't have it 'just for free'." Play this little passive-aggressive game and your DM will get the hint pretty quickly. Course, he also might just kick you out of the game or kill your character--which is kinda what you want, to prove that his rules nerf wizards--but it's not worth that much. Again, this is the immature way to go about it--but I game with immature people, so this would work for me. Maybe you can cut a deal with the other party members for their rings of deflection and whatnot.
Saytr 03-25-07, 02:53 AM	So if you make your own scrolls and sell them you will have a complete monopoly on the market. Right????!!!! Go ahead, start selling scrolls yourself, see what your DM does. Don't ask, just do it. Open a shop. Advertise that you are the "Only Place to Buy Scrolls in the Entire Country!!!" Tell him you didn't want to but you really need the money to keep up with everyone else. I'd really like to see what he says to that.
Aminvelos 03-25-07, 09:55 AM	No, your dm is nerfing your wizard by making you unable to buy scrolls and by giving your other characters a chance to gain gold and items with no RP or chance of failure or risk. My main problem is the no risk factor of the side-adventure and the not being able to find or buy scrolls. Indeed the dm is being unfair, if he allowed you to buy scrolls and actually had the characters role play the side adventure with possible complications and risks then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he is basically giving them free stuff because they don't have anything better to do.
Varia 03-25-07, 10:12 AM	Except Darklord, in this campaign, I can't buy an Unseen Servant scroll... we're talking zero scrolls for sale. Nadda. Neit. Not just hard to find, or expensive, simply not available. Well, if there arent any scrolls for sale then perhaps this is a grand and glorious opportunity to make and sell some yourself. Theyre very rare, and thus very valuable, you should make a mint. Then take your mint to that npc artificer and buy all the toys you can stand?
Kursk 03-25-07, 10:33 AM	Except that, due to the presence of an allied artificer (recently retired PC that has taken on NPC status) with us, people can esessntially buy any magic item from him that they can pay for. But he can't scribe scrolls of course... So, you are crying because you can buy any magic item except scrolls? Yes, you are whining. Yes, it is okay for your DM to do this.
Augurer 03-25-07, 10:47 AM	Except Darklord, in this campaign, I can't buy an Unseen Servant scroll... we're talking zero scrolls for sale. Nadda. Neit. Not just hard to find, or expensive, simply not available. Is the society capitalistic? You can scribe scrolls, right? Supply vs Demand. You have a veritable jackpot sitting in front of you. Scribe spells and sell them at exhorbitant prices. Unless there's no demand, they'll sell. And net you a fortune.
Comus 03-25-07, 11:29 AM	I agree with everyone who says to scribe and sell scrolls. Even better, do it on commission and charge the XP cost to the buyer as well. If they want a scroll of a spell you don't have, charge them the research cost, too! It's win-win, and you can sell them at whatever price you want (I'd start with double DMG prices).
TheDarkLord 03-25-07, 11:52 AM	You know, from the general gyst of the OP's statement, I'm willing to be that; A: Scribe scroll might not be allowed or B: If it is allowed there might not be a demand (DM fiat here).
TygerTyger 03-25-07, 01:48 PM	Yup, Darklord's right. I can not sell scrolls for more than the half price that the market allows. Don't ask why, I don't know either. So its a losing proposition there. :) I am considering charging for some spells, or asking that scrolls be paid for by the party fund (scrolls that I scribe that is) in order to offset this a bit. Who knows. And Kursk, yes, I can buy other magic items. No question there. If I had the gold to buy them that is. Except all my gold thus far has gone into researching and scribing spells into my book. So sure, I could have about 3K worth of magic items, and much fewer spells. Personally, that doesn't make a lot of sense, but like I've said above, I am new to D&D and to wizards as well, so maybe it makes more sense for me to buy a wand of Magic Missile (level 3) than it does for me to learn 11 new spells. I don't think so, but maybe. Though the DM has intimated that the NPC Artificer may not be as available as we've assumed... he's sort of rather strongly suggested that I pick up a few crafting skills... which I was planning anyway. CWI at the least, and maybe a couple others as well. That said, I've addressed the point to the DM via e-mail. His response was, be patient, don't worry, I hear your concerns. Not sure exactly what that means, but I'm willing to just relax on it and see what happens. He's also intimated that our next downtime may not be for another 5 character levels though, so at that point things will be very different! Fabricate anyone? :D
Augurer 03-25-07, 02:53 PM	Well, tbh, I'd demand a new character (or a rebuild from the ground up of the existing character), or simply refuse to play, given the restrictions you've outlined. A Wizard in such a world is clearly working at a disadvantage, and there's no justification for not treating all PCs fairly.
Saytr 03-25-07, 04:42 PM	He's setting up some stupid plot point with the scroll thing. Good example of lousy DMing. .
TygerTyger 03-25-07, 04:56 PM	Nah, I don't think he's a lousy DM at all. I do feel very frustrated and challenged by the ruling, and I do think that he's being unnessesarily hard on Wizards (and being the only one, its just me affected), but overall I am very pleased with his game and his DMing style. The game is fresh, exciting and challenging. Its got just enough of every element to appeal to all the players, and its set in a realm that I absolutely love. This issue is a relatively minor speedbump in the context of the whole game. A frustrating and potentially upsetting one, but minor nonetheless.
Onikani 03-25-07, 05:04 PM	RAW: Price of a 5rd level scroll (25*5*7): 875gp Price to scribe 5 pages into a spellbook: 500gp Total cost: 1375gp, 8 hours worth of time, ZERO xp. (add fifteen minutes if the line at Mage Mart is long). If 5th level scrolls aren't easily available (uderstandable) Total cost- scroll + copying into book 1st: 125 gp 2nd: 350 gp 3rd: 675 gp 4th: 1100 gp Remember, all this is without an XP expenditure on your part, and only requires 8 hours to copy into the spell book. Wizzy's automatically get to add 2 spells to thier books every time they level for free as long as 2 things are assumed: 1) the pc can cast the spell he is adding 2) the pc had some time at some point to do some research. Again this doesn't require an expenditure of xp or gold. The DM is seriously screwing you. Simply put, retire your character. Its not even worth trying to catch up on all the stuff you missed from these free down time favoritistic treasure dumps. Go with a sorceror or psion, or other spontaneous or divine caster. Or dump the magic use all together and be some kind of warrior type. Good luck man, i feel for you.
Onikani 03-25-07, 05:06 PM	Nah, I don't think he's a lousy DM at all. I do feel very frustrated and challenged by the ruling, and I do think that he's being unnessesarily hard on Wizards (and being the only one, its just me affected), but overall I am very pleased with his game and his DMing style. The game is fresh, exciting and challenging. Its got just enough of every element to appeal to all the players, and its set in a realm that I absolutely love. This issue is a relatively minor speedbump in the context of the whole game. A frustrating and potentially upsetting one, but minor nonetheless. he may not be lousy, but you could certainly do better. i wouldnt even call it a minor speedbump, i would call it more like making you raodkill compared to how he is treating the other players.
Saytr 03-25-07, 05:30 PM	He's setting up some stupid plot point with the scroll thing. Good example of lousy DMing. . Didn't say he was a lousy DM. He's just engaging in some lousy DMing at this point. If your DM said "Be patient" that means he is likely fixing the situation as part of the plot. You may not like the way he "fixes" it and you won't know until later, maybe much later, how this will be resolved. Until then, your character will be getting screwed, and maybe afterwards too, depending on the "fix". Anytime a DM railroads a plot to the point that something in game doesn't make any sence at all and you are supposed to ignore it and are not allowed to make any attempt to better the situation, despite the fact that it is what your character would do (try and help himself), then he is engaging in LOUSY DMing. Sorry about the run-on sentence. He could have weaved this little tale without smashing your fun into little pieces. It might have involved a little more work, but he could have done it. Maybe he'll make up for it. Maybe it will be a great campiagn. If he won't tell the reasons for the scrolls thing and what the resolution is, that's fine, it's part of the game. He should tell you how long it will probably be before the situation is resolved though, so you can make the decision to keep playing this character or not. That's only fair. m
Magrus 03-25-07, 05:58 PM	As a DM and a player, I would personally, discuss this with the DM, out of game. In my first game as a DM, I ended up wanting to finish it quickly, and handed out equipment which was FAR too powerful for the group in order to speed through the last session of the game. They got so bored with it after getting these super weapons they didn't even want to bother finishing the game. Eventually, the party will end up having to wrap you in padding and shove a helmet onto you in order to simply keep you alive. If you are pouring all of your wealth into simply getting the basic progression for what a wizard normally gets while the rest of the party is getting oodles of free treasure, there is a problem. You need to discuss with him what is going to happen. If he doesn't change things, your wizard becomes nothing more than an amusement piece for you and the rest of the party. Yes, a wizard with good spells played by a player who knows how to use them can wreak havoc. However, a wizard without good spells who is constantly in a room trying to research good spells, cannot. He is stiffing your char from 3 directions while the others are getting free cookies. I'd say if he doesn't change things, have your wizard switch gears and have your fun playing the party's jester with neat glowing balls that dance and stuff. Create yourself a funky outfit, and try to put on a one man show for small towns, ala fireworks and the like to make cash. Don't bother with trying to keep up in your combat encounters, you don't have the ability to maintain the same level of power as everyone else. Just have fun. Instead of killing the big baddie, let the big baddie crush the tank when you pull out your big bad Prestidigation spell to turn him purple and then make sound effects ala the Barney theme song. I mean, it's not like anyone in the party or the DM are going out of there way to support your character or the concept you have. Switch gears and do whatever it is that amuses you most with him. Better yet, twist the system he has put into place completely around on you. Tell him "I want to go off adventuring like they did while I was scribing scrolls, for 10 months." Then, when he tosses you your treasure, sell the loot, buy a tower, and spend the next 10 years researching every spell you can get from the PHB to fill your spellbook up to your max spell level. Let the party and DM stew over that flaw in their game plan. Maybe they won't like the research system so much anymore.
Sleepwalker13666 03-25-07, 06:04 PM	The no scrolls for sale thing is really harsh. Wizards are suppossed to have stock in scrolls and wands, it gives them firepower after the've exhausted thier spells per day. I make sure theres a wand and scrolls in every dungeon I run for my spellslinging players. I keep track of thier wand charges to make sure another wand is waiting for them when the next one runs out. I also make sure wands, scrolls and potions are generally available for sale in towns, a player may not be able to find a +1 sword on the market but he will always be able to find scrolls. This is'nt even taking in to consideration the extra magic items he's dumping on the other players. Now you may be having fun, but it is anything but fair, I would'nt take "be patient" for an answer, I would say to the DM, "Hey I playtested your study system, but I really don't like it, can we play by the rules instead, since they are um...you know...fair?" Lastly, as a wizard it is important to have a lot of spells at your disposal, but you might be spending too much time researching, When I play wizards, which is rare, I only concern myself with about 4-5 spells per spell level, at least 1 defensive, two offensive and 2 utility spells of each level is all you really need.
Joshua_Cail 03-25-07, 06:37 PM	Yeah, I would agree with Sleepwalker. See, the problem with the answer, "Be patient" is it allows him to take his time working this out. Even unintentionally, the game could be derailed by weeks by poor attention spans at playing sessions. I know your DM means well, but you need to really figure out how long it will be before he fixes it. Even a vague idea helps. I would stick to the rules and use this point-research system for extra spells that you want to research. Finally, to everyone who has railed on Tyger: Read the posts and actually find out what the actual deal is before you write some completely unhelpful sentence telling him to quit complaining. He's actually going about this in a perfect way. I'd bet most DMs would kill for a player this patient with fixes to poorly planned systems. In short, don't be losers, actually read his posts to find out if he's got a bad attitude. You've provided little to no help at all.
calronmoonflower 03-25-07, 11:04 PM	Or alternatively, use your spells to make money. Learn Fabricate and start a construction business. Like in Eldest (the book that comes after Eragon) when the mages in the resistance started using magic to create lace and undercut the market to raise funds. The no scroll this is a huge nerf for your class. Even if you cannot buy scrolls wizards should have a couple around for utility spells. It make a huge amount of sense to make a scroll for any spell that thats only useful under specific circumstances, but cannot be easily replaced when it comes up. if you can make scrolls and no other wizard can you could make fortune teaching other to make scrolls. Or you can charge a slight fee to your party for casting spells to offset expenses.
moriarty13 03-26-07, 02:28 PM	Can you direct the party at all? Can't you find the spellbooks of other wizards and learn spells from that? I would say if the spell research rules are too restrictive and expensive, then don't use em as often:). Take the free money option everyone else is doing, then maybe the next downtime learn a spell. I guess it does force you to choose more flexible spells for your 2 free per level. It's probably not the end of the world. There is a feat called Extra Spell that lets you learn a spell, maybe ask if you can bump that up to 3 spells for the feat? Ask if you can bump the 2 per level added to your spellbook up to 3 or 4? Not having access to scrolls at the magic shop isn't that bad. Not being able to EVER find scrolls or spellbooks IS bad. It's assumed in the rules that you gain spells for your spellbook through adventuring. If you can't do that, then that's gonna hurt you, and weaken the wizard class in general.
navar100 03-26-07, 11:42 PM	I think the DM is being unfair to you. A player does nothing yet his character gets magic items by DM fiat* through a "downtime mini-adventure". That's just not right. Next downtime, don't say you are doing anything special. Let the DM say something happens by fiat. See what happens. If you're character is gimped, don't complain. Next downtime, again do nothing and wait for DM fiat. See what happens. Get free stuff? Great. Get nothing or worse? Fine. Keep quiet. Don't improve your wizard at all. Let him and/or the party die because the DM is screwing you over, if you don't quit first because you can't stand it anymore. Play a fighter when your wizard dies. He has no out of combat skills that the anti-fighter people like to crow about on other threads. Therefore, you now have an excuse not to do anything special during downtime. Just let the magic items pour in, if they do. If they don't, perhaps the DM's downtime mini-adventure table isn't so random after all. Take the hint. Find a new game. Some people are jerks that way in forcing people they don't like to leave the game. *He may be using a downtime dice roll table, but it's still DM fiat. Yep, I'm being rather blunt. Seriously, you are being screwed over.
kelvinaw273 03-27-07, 11:33 AM	OK, rather than focus on who is whiney and who is nerfing you. let me offer you some ways out of your situation. 1) have you met, or do you know of, any other NPC wizards in the campaign? If so, you need to contact them and offer to trade spells. That should boost up your number of spells known quickly and cheaply without the costly research. Also ask your DM if spellbooks should be included in treasure if you take down an enemy wizard. After all, why do the research if somebody else has done it already? 2) TygerTyger's Scroll Emporium! You are a Wizard, you have the ability to scribe scrolls. So do so. if there is no competition you should have a cornered market, so charge masses times the standard emount. Make magic items and charge the earth for them! if the Dm complains, shrug and tell him that your research has to be funded somehow, and you are losing out big time to PCs going on side-quests.
TygerTyger 03-29-07, 02:13 PM	1) have you met, or do you know of, any other NPC wizards in the campaign? If so, you need to contact them and offer to trade spells. That should boost up your number of spells known quickly and cheaply without the costly research. Also ask your DM if spellbooks should be included in treasure if you take down an enemy wizard. After all, why do the research if somebody else has done it already? Ahhh... if only this was an option. DM has ruled that the mages I know (up to and including my mentor in the mage's guild) will not trade or sell access to their spellbooks, nor create scrolls of said spells for me. No copying, nadda. 2) TygerTyger's Scroll Emporium! You are a Wizard, you have the ability to scribe scrolls. So do so. if there is no competition you should have a cornered market, so charge masses times the standard emount. Make magic items and charge the earth for them! if the Dm complains, shrug and tell him that your research has to be funded somehow, and you are losing out big time to PCs going on side-quests. I wish. Scrolls sell for the same amount as any magic item, i.e. half book value. Logical? Not at all. I'm learning to live with it slowly though. The DM and I have achieved a bit of a compromise in the last few days. You now get to add your caster level in points to the system, and the value of XP spent went up, from 100XP per point, to 10XP per point. Not that I'll be spending XP on spells, but if its really a big deal, it might be worth it. These changes mean that research of spells level 4 and under (maybe even level 5) is pretty quick to a well skilled pure Wizard. DMs also intimated that a bit of patience will go a long long way. I'm hoping he's right. Either way, its a great game, and with the exception of this rule, its been a tonne of fun.
wonlee76 03-29-07, 04:17 PM	The more I look at your DM's system, the more I think it is in some ways advantageous and in others, bad. Standard Rules: 1 day to scribe 1 spell 100 gp/Spell Level Need a source of the spell to copy from (scroll or enemy's spellbook). So you're looking at a price range (presuming you buy scrolls and scribe from scrolls): 1st Level: 100 gp + 25 gp for scroll 2nd Level: 200 gp + 150 gp for scroll 3rd Level: 300 gp + 375 gp for scroll 4th Level: 400 gp + 700 gp for scroll Your DM's rules make it easy for low level spells to be scribed and a pain in the butt for high level spells to be scribed but at least you have "other" ways to pay for the costs associated with higher level spells (library, skill ranks, xp instead of gp, spend more days researching, etc. etc.) As you pointed out, 1st and 2nd level scrolls require no real investment except for 1 days time which follows the norm saving you 125 gp to 350 gp per day. This seems to be a nice perk. Personally, I would suggest instead of researching spells (or spending ALL your time researching spells), spend some time doing these "side adventures" your DM does during your downtime and maybe you'll get lucky and come across an enemy's spellbook which may help you out in expanding your own spellbook.
FntsyWlkr 03-29-07, 04:50 PM	Hmp. (thinks) To me the solvency doesn't seem to be the system with the DM, but moreso your "team." Your spells are an asset to the whole team, especially as you gain in levels. I think they need to start to chip in for you to get spells. I do come from a background of a lot of Player vs Player combat, but at the same time I come from the background of a lot of teamwork (which is a contradiction, I know). But it would seem that any violence that erupted between players, was because one player was not being a team player. ... damn I have a good story, but here isn't the place to say it.
TygerTyger 03-29-07, 06:24 PM	Yeah, the current plan is to pretty much cease any spell research at this time. There are some real advantages to the system, and for the most part I really like it. The aforementioned ease to learn low level spells is one of the big advantages of it. For now though, spell research is on the back burner unless a) its paid for by the party (i.e. "Sure, I can make that Handy Haversack for you, but you'll need to help me with materials for the spell it requires") b) really necessary or c) really low level. With the skills and set up I've got now, levels 1-3 spells take a day, and level 4 only takes 4 days. Once I get a library up, that may change. And of course, the Blessed Book will take a while to make, but it'll pay for itself in hardly any time at all! And I think the party may be in for a bit of a shock when they find out that magic items from me cost full retail price. Hey, if they wanted the deals, they should have helped me out when they were flush with cash hmm?! The ranger that gave me a portion of his DT loot will get a deal, and maybe, just maybe, that will clue the rest of them in. Here's hoping anyway.
jerosenb 03-29-07, 07:09 PM	Has the DM given any reasons for his rule changes? Changes rules "just cause" isn't really healthy. There should be a reason behind them and they should not be unbalancing. I could see if someone wanted a low magic system but it appears the other spell casters aren't similarly hampered. It seems that you could be playing a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard and be much more powerful. It seems like a straight out nerf to the Wizard class. But does the DM have reasons for these rule changes? Are other classes dealing with other changes to their classes too? Whats the point of the whole downtime adventures? That seems odd. Its like he's just throwing free stuff at people for no reason. Is that explained? Or is he using it as a mechanism to help out players that are struggling? Are the treasures rewarded fixed by the DM or random? Maybe that other player just got lucky due to random treasure rolls.
TygerTyger 03-29-07, 08:34 PM	Well, his reasons are not forthcoming at this time. And no, none of the other classes have been significantly changed, at least, not to the best of my knowledge. I know he made a change to the way that the Crusader recovers his manuevers, but I am not entirely sure what it is. The essence of the DT adventuring is to provide those who wouldn't otherwise have anything special to do (i.e. everyone else :) ) with something that they do. As far as I can tell, he made up a table, and everyone rolled on it (D20) to see what happened to them. They rolled twice, once for each three week period.
jerosenb 03-30-07, 05:26 PM	... The essence of the DT adventuring is to provide those who wouldn't otherwise have anything special to do (i.e. everyone else :) ) with something that they do. .... So the reason he created the DT adventuring is because nobody else had the downtime he was imposing on you? So first he makes the wizard spend weeks on end studying spells. Then he realizes the other players are standing around twiddling their thumbs for weeks at a time. So his 'solution' is to give other players piles of free treasure with no risks? If thats how the logic really went then thats seriously goofed up IMO. Thats like if you've got 4 kids and you make one of them mow the lawn, pull weeds and wash the car and then realize the other 3 kids are all bored so you take them all to Chucky Cheese. I think limiting the spells in general might be OK if the DM has some specific reason for limiting your spells if it made sense for the campaign setting somehow. But it would be best if he told you the logic behind it. If it has sometthing to do with a major plot point in the campaign he might want to be coy about it for now, but thats still kinda annoying to be singled out for a nerf like this. But the spell learning system he has now is too harsh and its almost impossible to get any high level spells without spending the rest of your life in a library. I think either the DM is seriously runing the wizard class for no specifically good reason. Or he's got something up his sleeve for the future that will make sense and hes just not doing a good job handling the nerf to your character in the meantime.